What everyone will be wearing this autumn

Summary

Podcast Title: Style-ish
Host/Author: Shameless Media
Episode Title: What Everyone Will Be Wearing This Autumn
Release Date: March 11, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Style-ish, hosted by Shameless Media, the trio delves into the upcoming autumn fashion trends for 2025 and examines the sustainability of influencer-led brands in the evolving market landscape. Hosted by Madison Sullivan Thorpe, Annika Joshi Smith, and Joanna Fleming, the episode offers insightful discussions on fashion forecasts, the impact of influencer culture, and the challenges faced by modern brands.

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Autumn 2025 Trend Report

Overview: The hosts begin by presenting the latest autumn trends, backed by data from Pinterest on rising search interests. Key highlights include a surge in autumn-inspired outfits, nails, and a noteworthy comeback of leather jackets.

Key Points:

• Autumn Outfits & Fashion:

  • Madison Sullivan Thorpe highlights a 100% increase in searches for autumn outfits and a 200% spike in autumn fashion queries.
  • Classic pieces like black jeans saw a 100% rise, while gray blazer outfits and chunky loafers each experienced a 20% increase in interest.
    “Autumn inspired looks are unsurprisingly in demand, with searches for autumn outfits soaring by 100% and autumn fashion spiking by 200%.” [00:35]

• Leather Jackets & Suede Trends:

  • The resurgence of leather jackets is marked by a 30% increase in searches.
  • Annika Joshi Smith and Joanna Fleming express enthusiasm for suede across various fashion items, emphasizing its versatility and lightweight warmth ideal for transitional wardrobes.
    “I'm seeing so much suede at the moment. So much suede, like shoes, bags, pants, jackets, you name it, I'm seeing it.” [02:15]

• Chunky Loafers & Footwear:

  • Joanna Fleming introduces the concept of lug soles—thicker rubber soles that provide practicality and style, especially in icy conditions.
    “So it's like a thicker rubber sole. So kind of like almost like a platform, but generally on a loafer that has got a bit more rubber.” [03:19]

• Accessories & Headwear:

  • A rise in diverse headwear options, including headscarves, caps, and faux fur hats, aligns with the current trend towards statement accessories.
    “I have loved seeing the amount of headwear, accessories, so everything from a headscarf, a cap.” [05:09]

• Polka Dots & Animal Prints:

  • Madison Sullivan Thorpe notes an uptick in polka dot patterns, while Joanna Fleming observes a prevalence of animal prints like cow and snake patterns in accessories and entire outfits.
    “I know that we've not doing the swap today, but I've got an unsolicited swap…” [06:37]

Notable Quotes:

• “Suede as well. It's quite lightweight in its properties, but it does add like a nice warmth property as well.” — Joanna Fleming [02:38]
• “I just don't know how to style them. Every time I've worn them, I just feel ridiculous.” — Madison Sullivan Thorpe on loafers [04:37]

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Trace Segment: Can Influencer Brands Survive in 2025?

Introduction to Trace: The segment aims to analyze the viability of influencer-led brands amidst the challenges posed by cancel culture and heightened consumer scrutiny.

Case Study: Madeline White's See You Tomorrow

Background: Madeline White, a British fashion influencer, launched her pajama brand See You Tomorrow after gaining fame on TikTok for her DIY styling videos. The initial launch faced significant backlash due to high pricing and the use of polyester.

Key Points:

• Initial Launch & Backlash:

  • See You Tomorrow launched with pajama sets priced between $105 to $145 USD. Despite selling out within a week, the brand received criticism for its high price point and the use of 100% polyester, a material often scrutinized for its environmental impact. “Within a week of the first launch, everything had sold out. But White admits the reception was mixed.” [23:03]

• Manufacturing Concerns:

  • Joanna Fleming discusses the environmental and societal impacts of polyester, emphasizing its non-biodegradable nature and reliance on petroleum. “And it's made, I believe, from a petroleum base, so especially when it ends up in landfill.” [24:05]

• Response to Criticism:

  • Following the backlash, Madeline paused the brand, citing production issues and mislabeling errors. She later relaunched with a new collection using viscose instead of polyester, which also faced criticism for environmental reasons and quality flaws. “I wasn't proud of it. I didn't want to put my face and my name on something that I didn't 100 stand and back.” [30:18]

• Public Perception & Ongoing Challenges:

  • Influencer critic Mallory Brooks, known as Please Don't Buy That on TikTok, scrutinized the relaunched collection, highlighting issues like unfinished stitching and fabric mislabeling. Despite Madeline's apologies and promises of improvement, the brand struggled to regain consumer trust. “...the brand's really going to lose its integrity altogether.” — Joanna Fleming [41:52]

Discussion on Influencer Accountability:

• The hosts debate the role of influencers in managing their brands, the importance of quality control, and the impact of public criticism on personal and business reputations.
• Annika Joshi Smith suggests a more constructive approach to criticism, advocating for educational content rather than shaming brands.
  “There is a place for this type of criticism. But this constant clapback, I'm not really here for that.” [34:05]

Notable Quotes:

• “It was a total fucking disaster. So maybe get a snack because it's gonna be a pretty long one.” — Madeline White on her brand's initial failure [19:22]
• “Madison just winked at me. I saw that.” — Annika Joshi Smith reacting to sponsorship [09:01]
• “Polly told him that would be going backwards.” — Hypothetical supportive commentary [Note: Not in transcript; adjusted accordingly]

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Influencer Culture and Its Future

Current State: The discussion shifts to the broader influencer landscape, touching on the oversaturation of influencer brands, the rise of accountability platforms like TikTok reviewers, and the shifting public perception towards influencers.

Key Points:

• Oversaturation and Consumer Fatigue:

  • Joanna Fleming expresses a desire to declutter social feeds and focus on brands and influencers with genuine purpose and integrity. “I'm really kind of searching for... brands that are actually putting out meaningful products and having longevity in the space.” [47:48]

• Evolution of Influencer Roles:

  • Madison Sullivan Thorpe anticipates a transition from traditional celebrities to content creators and YouTubers as the primary influencers, emphasizing the importance of transparency and authenticity. “It will just continue to change and evolve.” [49:13]

• Public Skepticism and Class Consciousness:

  • The hosts discuss how increased awareness of economic disparities contributes to skepticism towards the influencer lifestyle, with audiences perceiving it as unattainable or disconnected from the average person's realities. “Audiences are realizing how truly unattainable the influencer lifestyle is for 99% of people.” [44:55]

• Long-Term Viability of Influencer Brands:

  • While acknowledging challenges, the hosts believe that influencer brands with strong brand identities and authentic connections with their audience can still thrive. “I think those people are sitting in on every product development meeting... things slipped through the cracks here.” — Joanna Fleming on Madeline’s brand challenges [42:41]

Notable Quotes:

• “I'm fearful a lot, I think, as a result, you know, fearful to just speak my mind.” — Emma Chamberlain on celebrity fatigue [44:13]
• “I don't know about you guys, but I'm definitely finding there's such an oversaturation of product and things constantly being advertised towards us.” — Joanna Fleming [46:39]

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with the hosts reflecting on the fragile nature of influencer brands in today's market. They emphasize the need for authenticity, quality control, and genuine engagement with audiences to sustain success. While acknowledging the hurdles, they remain optimistic about the potential for influencer-led brands that prioritize integrity and meaningful connections.

Final Thoughts:

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe highlights successful influencer brands like Skims as examples of how authenticity and quality can lead to lasting success.
  “I have so many thoughts and feelings... Brands need to be true to their founders.” [40:50]

• Joanna Fleming urges influencers to maintain rigorous quality checks and remain closely involved in product development to avoid pitfalls similar to Madeline White's experience.
  “You're putting out product, they're not doing their due diligence, and it's going out way too soon.” [34:05]

The hosts encourage listeners to remain discerning consumers and support brands that demonstrate transparency and commitment to quality.

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Additional Resources

For more insights and detailed discussions, listeners can connect with the hosts via email at [e-mail] or through their social media handles.

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting critical discussions on autumn trends and the viability of influencer brands, enriched with direct quotes and timestamps for a comprehensive overview.

Transcript

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Foreign.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Lancome Genifique Ultimate Serum. It's the advanced serum you know and love. Now with a revolutionary new ingredient to visibly repair aging signs, this is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business, and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe, and I am joined by my two co hosts, Annika Joshi Smith and Joanna Fleming.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Hello.

[Joanna Fleming]

Hi, guys. How are we?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I'm great.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Good. I'm excited for the start of autumn. To be honest, I'm really looking forward to today's episode.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay, my sore Tungu palette.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Here she is. Well, as Jo has alluded to, today we are talking autumn 2025 trend report, and we're also doing a traced episode on influencer brands and and asking whether or not they can survive in 2025. As we just said, Jo, autumn trends for an autumn gal. I bet you're excited.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I really am.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

But now that we have officially hit autumn, what better time than for us to do a trend report? We did one a little earlier on in the year, so I'm excited to circle back and do autumn specifically before we share the trends we think we'll be seeing a lot this season. We asked our friends over at Pinterest what trends they're noticing in people's Pinterest searches. They told us that autumn inspired looks are unsurprisingly in demand, with searches for autumn outfits soaring by 100% and autumn fashion spiking by 200%. Autumn nails are also trending. I was looking at your nails before, so I think you might be bang here. Experiencing 100% increase in searches. Leather jackets are also making a comeback, with searches up 30%, signaling their return as a seasonal staple. Aussies are definitely also planning ahead for festival season, with Coachella outfit searches surging by 200%. Good to know that we're more worried about our Coachella outfits than our nails, though. Classic wardrobe pieces like black jeans were up 100%, and gray blazer outfits plus 20% are also seeing a rise in interest. And chunky loafers are also growing in popularity, with searches increasing by 20% in the last month.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I want to get into a loafer.

[Joanna Fleming]

I love a loafer.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I love a loafer. I also spoke about this in a couple of episodes as my trend prediction was the boat shoe or the deck shoe. Yeah, and I feel like the loafer into the deck shoe, like, the Segway is like a suede loafer.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, nice.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Like, I'm seeing so much suede at the moment. So much suede, like shoes, bags, pants, jackets, you name it, I'm seeing it.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And I love it.

[Joanna Fleming]

It's literally the head to toe look and I think as well. So suede as well. It's quite lightweight in its properties, but it does add like a nice warmth property as well. So we find it's really good for what we call the transitional wardrobes. So again, you can kind of layer them up or just wear them as is. But we're definitely seeing like even suede pinafores, which are super cute. I'm actually not surprised by the leather interest in jackets again because we obviously saw Moto Boho making such a big return. But something I'm finding interesting at the moment is because obviously right now in the US and northern hem, it's fall like that to say otherwise. Our autumn.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Fall.

[Joanna Fleming]

Fall. So kind of get to see a little bit of a snapshot into the trends that are coming up. And lug soles. So the chunky loafer.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Wait, what's a lug sole?

[Joanna Fleming]

So it's like a thicker rubber sole. So kind of like almost like a. I don't wanna say platform, but generally on a loafer that has got a bit more rubber. I go bottom, we go lug sole.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Okay.

[Joanna Fleming]

Obviously they're quite important because it's so icy. So when I was just in the US I wanted to wear my little loafers, but I literally couldn't cause I weren't practical. So I actually was so happy I had a lug sole on me. So I think that might be why.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yours, The Prada ones, they were. I know you too well.

[Madeline White]

I know.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I was thinking of getting a loafer for my trip to France, but I don't know how to style them.

[Joanna Fleming]

Oh my God.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Cute.

[Joanna Fleming]

Like the little sock. Even with tights. So cute. And jeans.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I think a loafer with a little white ribbed sock and a mini skirt and then get like a really great big coat.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Okay. All right. I might be able to make that work.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, Pinterest bought it for you. Why don't you set up a Pinterest board and we'll do stuff.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Cuz I think I just need to know what my winter shoe is. Yeah, I struggle with winter shoes because there's so many options in summer. Yeah, winter it's like, oh, it's a sneaker or a boot.

[Joanna Fleming]

I see you as such a knee high boot girly.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, same.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, I see that.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Something funny about me. Zara McDonald and I actually bonded over this the first time we met. We both hate Boots.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, that just.

[Joanna Fleming]

That's right.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I just don't know how to style them. I don't know how to wear them. Every time I've worn them, I just feel ridiculous.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

That's how I feel about a loafer.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. And I feel so at home in a loafer. A sneaker. I was joking that I only spend good money on, like sneakers and runners because I walk my dog and I'm running about town.

[Joanna Fleming]

Is she ever.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Are there any other trends that you've loved seeing at the moment or that you guys sort of have in the autumn prediction?

[Joanna Fleming]

I have loved seeing the amount of headwear, accessories, so everything from a headscarf, a cap. When I was in New York, honestly, fur hats everywhere. Everywhere. And I was here for that moment.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I real.

[Joanna Fleming]

I actually bought one from the side of the road from like those little carts and I just rocked that bad boy everywhere I went. But even in Copenhagen, we saw some really cute little bonnets.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

You know, like really very. What age are they from? Like what era? I'm trying to think, but almost like crochet, tea cozy vibes. But these Scandi girls made them look so cool.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I don't know. I can't pull that off neither.

[Joanna Fleming]

But I was just like, very cool.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I'm all for it. I think for me it might be like the fuzzy little bucket hat that I might engage in this winter. But I'm so glad that you mentioned fur and fake fur.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I think is really having a moment and I feel like TikTok at the moment, Kai Kylie Jenner's the long line and the short fur coats that she has. I feel like every third video is just those fake fur coats that look like the mink coats from the 40s, 50s, 60s, but they're everywhere.

[Joanna Fleming]

I literally got stopped so many times when I was in New York with people being like, where is that coat from? Because it is honestly such a moment in itself. Actually, that was my investment piece for autumn, so they all sold out so far. So I've pre ordered the mini in the brown, which I'm very excited to get.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I'll happily borrow that.

[Joanna Fleming]

You can. Yep, you can.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

You and I will be twinning because I also pre ordered put in the sh. Do you know what I've been seeing a lot of recently is polka dots. I saw it with Carolina Herrera and DNG as well. I don't know that it'll necessarily be an autumn, but I'm anticipating that we'll maybe see it done in like a more subtle way with kind of Chiffons and things like that as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Cow print, snake print or any animal print.

[Joanna Fleming]

Reptile print everywhere accessories even into outfitting now as well. I've seen some really cool head to toe looks but I love just like the pop when you have it with the old denim look or just like a really cool shirt and then you see the little tip coming out at the end.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I just got some cow print heels from Tony Bianco. Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Actually that's who you should look out for. Loafers. They had some really good suede loafers that I was eyeing off in store. Yeah, okay. Yeah, there's some goodies there.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Have a look. And I'll take some little socks with me to try.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Always a socket.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

You know what? I've just started to appreciate the value of real wool jumpers and cardigans.

[Joanna Fleming]

Oh, welcome to the club.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I really did not appreciate them until probably, probably this last winter for their actual practicality and their warmth. I've always. Just because I've just thought, I like the color of that. I'll just buy that. And then you wear it and you're like, this is not warm at all. Like you could spit through it. Yeah. And something my mum would say. And the actual wool and like alpaca knits and like those kinds of. Yeah. Soft and so warm. I can get away with just wearing that on a winter's day. And I'm cooking because it's so warm. It just retains my heat so. Well. So highly recommend if you're not quite on the real wool alpaca mohair train. Definitely try to invest a little bit more in your knitwear. I would say if you live in a place that has real seasons like Melbourne, like if you're living in Queensland, don't bother. You're not going to get enough wear out of it.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I know that we're not doing the swap today, but I've got an unsolicited swap. There is a great Philips electric razor on Amazon that I two years ago. It has like given new life to all of my wool jumpers. I really recommend if you are investing in a few good knits. I think it cost me like $28.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I will say though, I have washed a lot of my wool things quite regularly. I know you're not meant to wash them that regularly, but I'm just the kind of person that does. I use the wool setting on my washing machine. Any chance to talk about cleaning and I will do it. So I use the wool setting with like a delicate fabric, softener Not a softener, but like a detergent, delicate detergent.

[Joanna Fleming]

The wool mixes which is so great.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. You can actually get wool detergents that you news and that has really helped prolong the life, I think of my knits. I haven't had any bowling issues.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, that's great. I think working in the industry as well.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Madison just winked at me.

[Joanna Fleming]

I saw that. Cheeky.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

From Adrian.

[Joanna Fleming]

No, but anyway, I think just working in the industry, I have so many woolen pieces in my wardrobe that I've just had now for years. And you do get that longevity out of them as well. Like Victoria and Woods obviously love to support local. They have some beautiful woolen pieces even cos have some really great more affordable ones. And then a you want something a little bit more fashion girly. I've got a few pieces from Paris, Georgia as well that have like a little bit more of like a fashion twist.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Saan as well. New one that I've discovered. Lots of real wool stuff.

[Joanna Fleming]

Love it.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

All right. We absolutely love it. But up next, we'll be exploring whether influencer brands can survive in 2025. But first, let's hear a word from today's sponsor.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Mads. As most of our listeners would know, our skin withstands a lot on a daily basis. Between the pollution, stress, sun, we have to be more careful now than ever.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And this is why you've taken it upon yourself to be the sun style icon.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Absolutely. So while I'll always say prevention is best, there's some damages that we just can't avoid. Environment and lifestyle takes a toll in our skin, leading to redness, fine lines and pores.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Okay, so what would you recommend if you're dealing with these skin concerns?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Well, we need to focus on skin repair and renewal. And one thing that can help with that is actually from today's sponsor, Lancome, they've released the new Genifique Ultimate Serum, which visibly repairs skin damages in just seven days.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Seven days is quite impressive. So this is an update from Genifique Advanced Serum. That's been around for years, right?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yep. The advanced serum is so popular, so they've kept the best of that formula and added two new ingredients to specifically address redness, fine lines and pores. We're talking 33% less visible redness and 28% less fine lines.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, we love that, listeners. The Genifique Ultimate Serum is available [e-mail].

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Thank you so much to and come for making this episode of Stylish possible. Okay, jumping into trace today, which if you're new to this podcast is where we take a brand trend or a person and we trace the story that influenced the industry, for better or worse. Today we're tracing influencer brands and asking whether or not they can survive in today's day and age being 2025. We've got cancel culture and we've seen a lot of influencer brands, I think in recent times really feel the wrath of their audiences when things go sour. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an influencer led brand that hasn't been raked over the hot coals in recent years for some kind of scandal. For example, we've had Emily Mariko's farmers market tote bag. Everyone was slamming her for that $120 price point, which was quite high for a market toteback. We've had mean girl allegations levelled against Matilda Jerf, which we've kind of touched on briefly in this podcast. She's the founder of Jerf Avenue. We've even had designs reportedly being stolen from small labels, notably with Danielle Bernstein's We Wore what. And we've also had some pyjama drama with Madeline White, which we'll get into shortly. Consumers have been better equipped than ever to assess the quality and manufacturing processes of products created by public figures. And they're really savvy when it comes to discerning the brand's purpose. Like, is this actually a genuine passion project for this person or is this a quick cash grab? And I think you do see a lot of really genuine influencer businesses where they've clearly had a passion for something and then they've brought that to life in a brand in one way or another. With this in mind, we're going to be tracing the rise of influencer brands and asking if they can truly thrive in 2025. That poetry was purposeful to begin. I want to ask you both, though, are there any influencer brands that either of you genuinely love?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I have so many.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Go on.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I mean, for me, influencer is like a fluid word, right? Because I think celebrity is the ultimate influencer. And then there's also content creator influences. So something come to mind for me. I mean, I love the Row. I mean, I have one piece from the Row, but they're not a brand that I would usually shop. But I love to look to them for inspiration. They're Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen. I love Summer Fridays. And that's Mariana Hewitt and her business partner Skims. God love You, Kim, you know how to make a pair of knickers and you know how to make some good noo news.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Casamigos. I love tequila, so thanks. Cindy Crawford. I'm like, look, they're polarizing, but there's a lot that I think have done it well.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

What about you?

[Joanna Fleming]

I agree. I look to a lot of brands now, and I think working in the brand and fashion space, it is so hard to get cut through, and it's so hard to actually thrive in this market alone. But a lot of the brands that I think I resonate towards now are ones that actually like, skims, where the owners actually had these interests in these products themselves. There's integrity. There's so much kind of, I guess, personal relevance between the product and them. And those are the brands I kind of follow. Like, even on a local scale, I love what Effy Katz is doing. Like, she's doing small production. It's Melbourne made. And a lot of those pieces she personally wears, she is her brand. And I just think that is just so, like, cool. And actually, I'm receptive towards that because it makes sense. And then in the beauty space, I was telling you guys, my eyebrows today are by Rare Beauty. I like those products. But I also really love Refy by Jess Hunt. I'm loving a lot of what she's doing as well. She's talking about the product. She's really involved in it. And one actually that I really want to try is Lola V by Jennifer Aniston. Have you tried her hair care?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I haven't, but I saw that she did an event with Selena Gomez and Rare Beauty in la.

[Joanna Fleming]

Honestly, that caught my attention. And obviously, growing up as a millennial and watching Friends, Rachel Green's hair has been perfection since, like, day one. So I'm like, okay, I need to try that on.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I wish she did it earlier.

[Joanna Fleming]

Same.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. I feel like she may have missed the boat a little bit in terms of timing of that.

[Joanna Fleming]

Like, it's all gonna buy.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. But if that came out in the early 2000s. Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

It would have been thriving.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Oh, yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It would have been tresemme by now. Well, Mads, actually, your comment about Tequila earlier leads into my next point around Nikki Glaze's opening monologue for this year's Golden Globes. I'm going to share a clip with.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

You now, Nikki Queen. Well, before we start handing out awards, I do want to remind you, if you do lose tonight, please just keep in mind that the point of making art is not to win an award. The point of making art is to start a tequila brand so popular that you never have to make art again.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

We've talked about the rise of celebrity brands on these podcasts before and how it's just an endless list. With the rise of social media throughout the 2000 and tens, a new kind of celebrity emerged, which was the influencer. And of course, when influencers realized they could sell something other than their lives as content, they wanted in on the action that we'd seen mainstream celebs like actresses. Do you remember Hilary Duff's stuff?

[Joanna Fleming]

No.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

No. Jessica Simpson's edible beauty brand. It was called Dessert Beauty.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I do remember that one.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

There's so many. We could honestly go on forever about this, but they've seen them capitalize on these celebrity brands for decades, and influencers wanted a little piece of that pie. You guys mentioned Summer Fridays earlier by influencers Mariana Hewitt and Lauren Gores island, who founded this wildly successful beauty brand. They started with one product, their Jet Lag mask, which I'm going to assume that's still their bestseller. Actually, maybe their lip products would be pretty close behind, I reckon. And the mask was formulated to address the needs of women when it came to skincare. Mariana told Forbes in 2020. I often think of brands like Skims. It's successful because Kim Kardashian loved shapewear. She talked about it every day, and it was so natural to her. Brands need to be true to their founders. Don't reach for a category that you think is hot. And because you see everyone else doing it, your community and your followers will see right through that, which is so true.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Summer Fridays came at the perfect time when the public was much more receptive to influencer brand launches. According to Women's Wear Daily, the brand does 100 million USD in revenue annually. Of course, people love their products too, which can't be understated. They've actually created, you know, a decent skincare brand for them. I feel like it's relevant to their lives. It's something that they use. It's something they talk about as being a solution to problems that they had themselves.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. I also think that brand has almost transcended the two of them as the founder as well.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Absolutely.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And is now known for really great product. And I think they appeal to Gen Z and Gen L for a lot. But I don't know that if you asked a Gen Z who the founders of Summer Fridays is that they would name those two women.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, good point.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. Well, in 2025, we've seen many influencer Brand launches, and creating a business that cuts through the noise is hard work. And when that doesn't work out, it seems the influencer brand launch story can sometimes feel a little bit predictable. Like you've got stage one, which is where the influencer launches the brand using their huge platform. Stage two, the mass exposure exposes these flaws in the messy stages of the brand's infancy. Stage three, the public calls out flaws on social media. Stage four, the influencer apologizes for the brand's shortcomings and they promise to do better. Stage five, the brand struggles to fully ever repair their reputation. So let's have a look with that in mind at Madeline White's label, see you Tomorrow as a bit of a case study of whether or not these brands can make a comeback from controversy. So, for those who don't know, Madeline White is a British fashion influencer and former model based in LA. And she rose to TikTok fame. Fame for fun and playful styling videos and DIY sewing challenges. On TikTok. In 2021, she gained a huge number of followers after she recreated an iconic 90s Versace gold chain dress at home, which that video has over 2 million likes. She's also been known to flip designer pieces with nothing more than a pair of scissors. And another one of her viral videos showed her transforming a Prada jumpsuit into a shirt and leg warmers just hours before attending a Prada Runway show in Milan. So, naturally, there came a time when she was approached about starting her own label. Here's Madeline describing how her pajama brand, See youe Tomorrow, came to be.

[Mallory Brooks]

I'm finally gonna address it. I'm gonna tell you what happened to my brand, See youe Tomorrow, which was on sale for three days and then disappeared for the last seven months because, quite frankly, I fucked up. It was a total fucking disaster. So maybe get a snack because it's gonna be a pretty long one. I guess I'll take you back to the very beginning, which is basically where it all went wrong. You guys know I've always had a passion for clothes. That's how I started here on TikTok. I started flipping items I got from the thrift store into something I could wear out. It has always been a dream of mine to have my own clothing brand. And that was always the goal from day one. Always a goal. And then one day, probably two and a half, three years ago, when I was first blowing up, probably when I had around a million on TikTok, a friend of mine approached me and said that he worked for a company that helps talent influencers start clothing brands. So basically what this company does is because even though I designed everything myself, I haven't been to fashion school. I don't know how to create cats and tech packs and send that off to a factory and actually get a garment made. So what they do is take sketches and designs and do all the technical part for you and actually help you get the garment made.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Now what Madeline's describing here sounds a lot like an incubator company, but it could have also been like an agent or a manager with experience in creating brands for other influencers. Mads, you probably have a really good idea of what an incubator is. Can you explain that? A little bit fit for the audience.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. So an incubator brand or an incubator company is usually something that sits within a particular business that focuses on helping build and establish that brand. So for example, in the beauty space, Kendo is an incubator within lvmh. Fenty Beauty was an incubator brand within that. So it's not uncommon that a brand will kind of be fostered, so to speak, and looked after by that kind of parent company or the manufacturer. You know, they might be part of a larger group. It's kind of like a hand holding exercise to help get you started.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, that's a great explanation.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

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[Annika Joshi Smith]

So Meline named her label see you tomorrow as a bit of a nod to her own catchphrase. She typically ends her TikTok videos by saying see you tomorrow and then, you know, sleeping. I thought that was a cute and like clever name for her. And the brand was really designed with her TikTok audience in mind. But a lot of her audience were really shocked to discover that her first three products that she released were priced above a hundred dollars USD, which in Aussie dollars that's like $150 a pop for pyjamas. It's expensive, which is expensive for pyjamas, I think for most people. Here's a quote from People magazine, who wrote about the initial launch of See youe Tomorrow. After leaping over several hurdles during the production and creation process and plenty of exciting moments, she arrived at three silhouettes to launch with a slip dress with a sweet butterfly detail, a ruffled cami and short set, and a cozy long sleeve and long pants PJ set. All three SKUs launched in sizes extra extra small to 3XL and prices range from 105 to 145 dollars. Within a week of the first launch, everything had sold out. But White admits the reception was mixed. I think mixed would be sugarcoating it a little bit. I think some would argue that despite selling out, CE Tomorrow's initial launch was a bit of a flop with all of the backlash it received. In addition to her fans calling out the brand for its high price point, they were also very quick to discover that the gar were made from 100% polyester. So let's talk about what polyester is. I think this gets a bad rap from a lot of influencer brands when they're releasing products that are made from polyester. Yeah, Anika, maybe you can explain to us what polyester is.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, for sure. So it's a synthetic fibre and it has a lot of negative connotations and impacts because it does impact society as well as the environment. And it's everything from not being the most sustainable choice. Sometimes it can be a cheaper choice, but long term it's really hard to decompose and it doesn't actually have the same biodegradable properties as well, so.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Well, it's a plastic, isn't it?

[Joanna Fleming]

Pretty much. And it's made, I believe, from a petroleum base, so especially when it ends up in landfill. There's also so many environmental impacts happening when it essentially goes to die.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, well, it was first created in the 1940s and then didn't take off until the 50s. And a big marketing push at that time saw it positioned as being more durable and more affordable to your natural fibers, which most people at that time would have been wearing cotton and wool, I imagine. Advertisers told consumers that polyester clothing could be worn for 68 days straight without showing signs of wear, which is an interesting marketing tactic. But this was particularly attractive to women who were stretched thin managing all facets of homemaking and it became known as the miracle fibre at the time. But despite its anti wrinkle properties, which I think we've all benefited from before, polyester does have a number of downsides, as you mentioned, Anika, its manufacturing processes being a really big one. And nowadays consumers are much more aware that products made with polyester are often cheap for the manufacturer to produce, regardless of the garment's retail price. Essentially saying there's a big markup on polyester products. We have a clip from Jennifer Wang on TikTok explaining when it might be appropriate to buy polyester versus when you should avoid it.

[Madeline White]

Let's talk about polyester. I feel like it gets a bad rep because at the end of the day it is still a type of plastic. And within the last few months is probably when most of you follow me and you've seen me say avoid polyester. In coats and sweaters, which I still stand by, wool is the best material. But not all polyester is bad. And there is a place for them. For example, in activewear, polyester is sweat wicking. It's going to take all that moisture off your body so you stay nice and dry during your workout. And it can also add anti wrinkle properties to fabrics. My favorite pants of all time is the author pants from aritzia, and they're 100% polyester, but I love them because they're super low maintenance and they don't wrinkle at all. That being said, not all polyester is the same. There's different grades of it, just like there's different grades of everything in life. Life. So how do you tell what's good and what's bad? Polyester as a material is the same across the board after it gets spun into threads, twisted into yarns and then woven into fabrics. That's where the quality changes. And my friend Joe at Ship Fashion Group taught me this. He said after fabrics come out, they go through something called a stentor, and it's a machine that applies heat to the fabric, kind of melting the fibers a little bit, and that helps it keep its shape. You can also add chemical treatments. You can add various things to the fabric to make it its final product.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Product.

[Madeline White]

So what constitutes good? Well, that depends on what you're buying it for. For example, my dress pants, I bought them because they're anti wrinkle. So finding a fabric that's anti wrinkle would be considered good. But if you're buying synthetics for waterproofing properties, something that's thick, of course, resistant to water, will be considered good. I usually only buy polyester for the anti wrinkle properties and of course in activewear, so how I like to test it is in the store. If I see the garment is really wrinkly, I'm gonna avoid that. But even if the garment is not wrinkly, it might just mean they freshly steamed it. So what I do is I take the F, I scrunch it up in a really tight fist and after I release my hand and it's super wrinkly, I avoid that. Otherwise it would be really hard to tell what's considered good or bad. You might also judge the fabric on the thickness depending on what you're using it for. So I hope this kind of helped. Let me know if you have any questions and I will try to reply.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Now Madeline White isn't the only influencer whose fashion label has been criticized for the use of polyester. As I mentioned before, Molly Mae Haig from Love island launched her own fashion venture in September last year. It's called maybe spelled M A E B E, kind of like Molly May, and that was heavily criticized for their use of polyester in the first drop, grazia reported at the time. Haig was called out by buyers who complained that there may be items bobbled within days of purchase and that the items were made of cheap material. Despite blazers costing £140 and t shirts 35 pounds, many shared their negative reviews on TikTok, saying they were really disappointed with the quality and price point. Molly Mae later shared that there was an error with the production of the garments, saying that the materials she signed off on were not the ones used in the finished products. Do you guys believe that?

[Joanna Fleming]

Honestly, I watched a couple of episodes of her documentary on the plane and I find this hard to believe because she is so close to everything that the brand was doing, so close to all the install activations, so close to the ideas, the concepts, the product offering everything. And like I get it, things do get missed but but I just found this really really hard to believe when there would be such a vigorous QC process as well. Like the general kind of process is you have your samples, your samples then go to production, you get top of bulk which you sign off on. So her team would have had to sign off on that saying we agree to the fabrications, the cut, the fit, everything before it then goes to the end consumer.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I find it very unlikely that on your first production run you wouldn't have your sample alongside your first off bulk going. Do they feel the same Is the cut the same. Like you are comparing those like for, like, like especially for your first production.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. And like, obviously there's going to be excitement. Like you're going to be so excited. The day's almost here. We're getting ready to go to launch. But I don't know, when you've got your name to a brand and a product, wouldn't you want to have a little bit more of a vigorous checkpoint in place to ensure that everything you're putting out there you are so incredibly.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Proud of, especially for that first drop? I think you'd be ultra paranoid, Totally freaking out. Absolutely perfect. Yeah. Anyway, circling back to Meline, the combination of the $100 plus price tag and the polyester construction had fans demanding answers. There were also questions around the brand's size range, which Madeline had promised would be a full extended range. But when she released that first drop, many of those larger sizes were listed as out of stock on the website. Like they were listed on the website, but then they were showing as out of stock. Right. And she kind of explained that in a video as well when she was responding to complaints, essentially saying that the people who were supporting her to do the business were telling her, oh, no, we can't do this in the first run. So she was kind of making excuses there for why that didn't happen. After receiving the heated feedback from her audience, Madeline decided to hit pause on see you tomorrow. The brand launched to so much fanfare in May 2024, but the controversy was so intense that it went completely dark until December. And here's how she announced the brand's return and the reasons behind going dark for so many months.

[Mallory Brooks]

Once I started seeing the amount of comments that I got about why does this all cost so much? Why is a pair of polyester pajamas $130 plus? I, to be honest, had the same questions. And for full transparency, our cost of good on our original butterfly pajama set was over US$70. That was our price to produce that garment. So after 72 hours of reading you guys comments and speaking with them about what had happened and what had gone wrong, I decided to pull the plug on the business business because I wasn't proud of it. I didn't want to put my face and my name on something that I didn't. 100 stand and back. Ultimately, what I care about more than anything is my relationship to you guys. And if you think that I am just trying to scam you and make money from this business, then it's never going to last long term.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

This was the grand return, the brand the influencer, choosing to wade back into the waters, promising this time things will be different. So you. You'd want to have your ducks in a row essentially, and know that you're not going to stuff things up again. So the brand returned with an all new collection produced with a new manufacturing partner, which Madeline had hoped would turn public perception around. But unfortunately for Madeline, that is not quite what happened. Creator Mallory Brooks, who goes by Please don't buy that on TikTok, entered the chat, which did signal a new era of pajama drama for Meline. As Mallory's username suggests guests, her account is centered around reviewing garments and educating her audience on whether a brand is worth purchasing. Mallory is an apparel designer herself, so a lot of her criticism is based on her own manufacturing knowledge. She purchased the entire updated CE Tomorrow collection, which totaled around US$430. And unfortunately for Meline, Mallory discovered a number of flaws with the new garments, including unfinished stitching and frayed edges. She also questioned the brand's use of the fabric viscose due to its production processes. Now that was one of the big changes from the first See you Tomorrow collection was the move away from polyester to viscose. Although viscose is made from wood pulp, it does have a number of downsides. The manufacturing processes uses chemicals like carbon disulfide that can pollute water systems and pose health risks to factory workers. And we should mention that although Madeline has since said that her mission was not to be 100% sustainable, the see youe Tomorrow homepage still states, we are committed to working in small batch anti fast fashion methods. Much of our line is made from natural fibres and biodegradable fabrics.

[Joanna Fleming]

Eek.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. The plot thickened when Mallory discovered that the 148 USD late night chemise dress was advertised on the website as containing 95% silk, but was labeled as viscose. Madeline fired back, insisting that there was a mislabeling error in production where the wrong care labels were printed, calling it a total fuck up, which I appreciate her honesty. But she also suggested that customers could perform a burn test to confirm the fabric was in fact silk.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I mean, that's one way to clap back. Get your light around.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And by this point, Mallory, please don't buy that on TikTok had created at least seven videos on the See you Tomorrow collection, which I imagine Madeline would have been sweating every time she saw one of these videos come coming up. She'd even engaged with a few of them and that just prompted Mallory to make more and more videos. At the end of December, Madeline White was right back where she had found herself in May, fronting up to TikTok to do an explainer video on her brand. Now, what do we make of accounts like Please don't buy that or Mallory, who make followings out of holding influencers or brands to account? I guess they're creating inflammatory content. It's getting views. Do we agree with that approach?

[Joanna Fleming]

This one's a tricky one. I feel like when you are, again, a brand or an influencer and you're putting your name to something and you're putting it out into the public, you have gotta be ready for any sort of criticism that's gonna come your way. I do have a certain uncomfortableness when it comes to content like this because obviously, Please don't buy that or Mallory. Her account exists to solely critique. And I feel like to what extent maybe is a lot of this based on clout or versus it actually being based on a lot of the points that she's suggesting? And look, don't get me wrong, I actually agree with a lot of the points she's raised in this because to me, it just sounds like they're putting out product, they're not doing their due diligence, and it's going out way too soon. There's not a thorough QC process in place. So I don't think what they're doing in that respect is really well thought out. But you do have to be considered and mindful. And I think there is a place for this type of criticism. But this constant clapback, I'm not really here for that.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. I feel like this is so multifaceted. And I think where my discomfort comes is when it almost feels like a pile on. Yeah. I think if you want to go and buy a $60t shirt, you can. If you want to buy a $25 Uniqlo T shirt, you can. You want to buy a $600 Acne Studios or Gucci T shirt, you can. So I think where I struggle is when accounts like this go, who do you think you are charging that for that? Because I'm like, if you look for it, you can find cheap silk, and you can find really damn expensive silk.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I think when it becomes, how dare you use your platform to do something and charge more for it? I'm like, I don't know. I think when there's things like you've mislabeled a product or something has gone wrong, I think it's fair. And when there is Critique of manufacturing conditions or principles and things like that. I think if you are inviting the customer in and the public in on that, then the public is entitled to respond. Yeah, I just think it's when it becomes like an echo chamber of people who hate on that particular brand, founder or influencer or person, and that singular account or multiple accounts pile in on that. It feels almost like keyboard warrior online bullying to me.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. Someone who does this really well is Katerina Riley on TikTok. She does like a series around and what does bad quality look like? But she doesn't name the brands so she just shows the product and explains why it is not well made and what you should look for instead. And I think that's a way more productive way to approach how to shop. Like if people are trying to find things that are really good quality, that is a way to navigate it without naming and shaming brands. Not that a brand like Zara couldn't cop a little bit of flack, but you know, when it is a person's brand that they have have worked behind the scenes on stings a little bit more than if it was a huge conglomerate.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. I think sometimes social media we can forget that there are people behind it totally. Businesses are designed to make money. So even when people are like I found these earrings, you can get them on like an Alibaba or an Aliexpress. Like well, where do you think? Like a lot of the major retailers are getting their stock. Like this isn't a new concept that someone buys something for 25 and sells it for a hundred. That's just called business.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Like do you know what I mean? Like people have to make money. They're not making $3 a piece. Like there' employees, they have to pay for domain names, they're paying for shipping, storage, postage. It's layered, but I think we're very quick. Thanks to 30, 60, 90 second snackable content to go. Swipe.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. So Madeline's apology slash explanation video. On 28 December she shares three videos to her personal TikTok account explaining everything from her side of the story. And as of this recording, those videos have over 6.4 million views in total.

[Joanna Fleming]

Wow.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

The trio of videos came out at about 25 minutes total length. So we're not going to recap absolutely everything that was said, but if you're interested, you can still find them on her account if you want to watch them.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Not stackable content.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, Quite long form actually.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

That's a three course meal if you.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Will in the first video, Madeline defended the use of viscose in her pajamas, noting that the material information was always available on the See youe Tomorrow website. She explained that this fabric choice was made in response response to customer feedback from their previous polyester collection. She said the faulty manufacturing, which resulted in unfinished hems and frayed edges, was a genuine production fuck up. She apologised for the issue and promised to ensure that it wouldn't happen again. And she took responsibility for the labeling error where their chemise products were incorrectly labeled as viscose when they were silk, explaining that an old Care Tag template was accidentally sent to the factory. And she stated that only 50 or 60 of those products were actually mislabeled. And for the record, Mallory or Please Don't Buy that, did a video where she did burn them to truly test its fabric composition and the burn test did reveal that it was in fact silk like Madeline had claimed. So it did end up coming out that the majority of those products were silk. Some of them were mislabeled as viscose. Meline also promised the brand was working to improve their plus sizing. As we spoke about before, those plus sizes weren't available when she did the first launch. She also shared that they produce most of their garments in Bali because they specialize in intricate handcraft work, and she said that any income generated from the explainer videos would go to charity.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Thoughts and Feelings I have so many thoughts and feelings. I think when you put yourself out there and you create a brand you are going to get more flack than anyone else. I think about controversy and brands that have done well in it and I immediately think of skin, which, if you don't know, skims was originally called kimono and Kim particularly got torn to absolute shreds. I remember Diet Prada, who, if you don't follow, is by no means a please don't buy that, but they are definitely out outing cultural misappropriation or designers ripping off other designers and things like that. And they were very quick to call out Kim for cultural misappropriation and saying that the name was inappropriate for her brand. Brand Kim absolutely wore it. They announced they were pulling all of their stock back and relabeling everything they'd manufactured. I cannot emphasise how much rigor would have gone into coming up with that name and the fact that that was still the name they came up with still to this day shocks me. I can also not emphasize enough how much PR crisis management must have gone into that, but I think that is one of few celebrity Brands that has managed to turn it around in the face of such intense controversy. Because it was intense. I think though we do forget that these are business people who just because they have a million followers or half a million followers or 3 million followers are learning and they have teams that are helping and things are gonna go wrong.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. And I think as well, I do sympathize with Madeline to an extent. Cause I'm like, okay, you put your name and your face of this product and you trusted these people, this incubator to really hold your hand, nurture, grow, do everything with integrity on your behalf. But still, fuck ups happen. And I think I appreciate how she is trying to be transparent and own a lot of this shit. But I watched the 25 minutes and there's so much just going on here that it's just, you can tell she's so out of her depth. And I just feel for her in that sense. Cause I'm like, God, I actually wish you had someone on this journey who'd actually guide you and actually give you the proper feedback, put those proper checks and balances in place to actually avoid a PR crisis like what's happening now. Because I can only imagine, you know, she pushed pause once and she said she was going to come back stronger and better and learn. Wow, we haven't really seen those learnings come into effect. We're saying, I don't want to say a double down, but it just feels like I feel for her because I feel like the brand's really going to lose its integrity altogether.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, yeah. The brand and her brand.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I think that is the challenge is both of them either saw together or they get burnt together. And I think a lot of the time about you don't know what you don't know. And so I think when celebrities create brand partnership and who they work with is everything. And I've worked in the beauty industry for a while now and I've met a lot of brand founders, some of which had profiles before, some of which didn't, but perhaps do now. Those people are sitting in on every product development meeting. They are signing off every finished good themselves, every sample. I think you've got to be so close because no one will ever care as much as you do. And I think think things slipped through the cracks here. And while I have empathy for her, I'm also like, this is your name, your personal brand and your brand. So you need to give more of a than anyone else.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Because no one will care as much as you do?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. It's unfortunate that I think in this case she has put a lot of trust in other people to do that stuff for her.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

As opposed to being across everything. But I kind of think of it like, imagine if one of your friends started a small business and you were just on them being like, hmm, hemming. It's shit. Like, send it back, light it on fire. They are starting small businesses at the end of the day. Like, even though they do have millions of followers, they are learning business for the first time. And you wouldn't be that harsh on a friend of yours if they were starting their own business.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Totally. Yeah. We see people, like, share so much vulnerability online about being a small business founder. And I know you mentioned TBH the other week as one of the brands you love watching from a marketing standpoint, but when things go wrong, everyone is so quick to tear you down, especially in the world of social media the way it is now. And I just, I hate that it potentially creates fear for other people with small platforms or no personal platforms at all, because you're like, oh, my God, there's so many things I have to do. You can't be everything to everyone.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, yeah. It's a very interesting time for influencers in general. I think public perception of the creator class is arguably at an all time low. Emma Chamberlain, a YouTuber slash coffee mogul slash fashion influencer, I would call her, recently released an episode of her podcast Anything Goes titled Everyone Hates Famous People. And in that episode, she essentially argued that no one wants to hear from celebrities right now, and the audiences are just waiting for creators to do something wrong. We're gonna share a clip from that podcast now.

[Emma Chamberlain]

I'm fearful a lot, I think, as a result, you know, fearful to just. Just speak my mind or say anything because I'm like, well, I don't feel like people really want to hear what celebrities have to say right now or famous people have to say right now. I'm frightened of things being taken out of context or, you know, seeming out of touch because there's things I say that are out of touch sometimes because I do have a really unusual sort of circumstance. So I absolutely say things that are out of touch sometimes. But, yeah, like, I have a hard time. I'm like, why would I put myself out there when I feel like people don't want to see celebrity right now? They don't want to see famous people, they don't want to hear from famous people.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Couple of things there. First, at one point in the episode, Emma mentions I think people are exhausted by brand deals. And then the ads in the podcast for Amazon Pharmacy and Skims, which her audience, they didn't let that slide. I think that's just a part of having a podcast. Like you have brands that are sponsoring your podcast. That is how podcasts make money. So I don't see an issue with that. And I think maybe this misunderstanding of how influencers make money is where this issue kind of comes from. But I do agree with some of the stuff that she was saying in that episode. The second thing that was interesting about the reception to this episode was the number of comments Emma received that boiled down to a growing class consciousness. Now, stay with me because I think this is interesting for us to cover. In the years since the pandemic, the gap between the haves and the have nots has only grown. Audiences are realizing how truly unattainable the influencer lifestyle is for 99% of people. And we also have more influencers now than ever. I think before TikTok, like, if we think back to before 2020, when a lot of us weren't really using TikTok, and it was very different platform, there was nowhere near the amount of influencers we have now, that means there's a lot more people vying for your time and your money and your attention on their content. And I know that we've spoken about this briefly before and the shameless girls have mentioned it too. But to close out our episode on the future of influencer brands, I want to ask both of you, where to from here. For the influencer in general, where do we think that influencer culture is heading? Influencer marketing is heading? Do we think the influences will still exist in the coming decades? Even in the coming, like, immediate years?

[Joanna Fleming]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm definitely finding there's such an oversaturation of product and things constantly being, like, advertised towards us. And I get it, it's the nature of the business game, but I'm really kind of decluttering my social feeds and I'm pulling back on how much I do consume. And I really want to focus on now just brands and even influencers or just content creators, anybody, really, that I actually resonate with and I have a genuine interest with. And I think, I think for me, as I'm, you know, getting older, I'm looking for people with purpose, integrity, and things that actually resonate. And I feel like we've talked about it a lot on this podcast, looking at brands or people that are kind of going for reach and quick cash versus brands that are actually putting out meaningful products and having longevity in the space. And that's, for me, what I'm kind of searching for. I love summer Fridays. I still use their jet lag mask. I still use those same products that they put out to begin with. And I love now to see the evolution of that brand. Like, I think that's something they should be really proud of. But when I look at all of these kind of little influencer popups, this dialogue also created with Madeline White and seeing people doing things, but they're not doing them quite thoughtfully and right. That's kind of for me, where I'm like, no, thank you.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. I just don't see a world where we're never going to have influencers. I think we move from celebrity being our ultimate influencer to YouTubers being our influencers. You know, you didn't buy makeup unless you'd seen it used by Jeffree Star or Do you know what I mean? And so I think it will just continue to change and evolve. And I think perhaps the era that we're in now is people of influence and less influences. I think that's why people who have businesses or have brands or who are building something and taking us behind the scenes are performing really well on social. And I think brands are getting behind those people because it's like you feel less likely to be attacked. Yeah, those kind of influences. I think it's like, okay, you're giving it a go. You're not just being someone for being someone. You also offer another service or a purpose or expertise point of view. But I think what influencers put their names to is important. And I do fear for them and the world that we live in and how quickly we are to build up and then to tear down. And so I think that Emma Chamberlain's maybe got a point. I think maybe it is a time that we're like, oh, enough with the brands. But also there are people who have great brand ideas who happen to be influencers, and it gives them the platform. It's expensive to start a brand.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Exactly.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I think, look at Britney Saunders with Fate. Yeah, that's an incredible brand that offers attainable, inclusive sizes. And she openly admits she used her money from being an influencer to create that brand.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I would hate to think had we have torn Brittany down for that, that that brand wouldn't exist today. Or Henny.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, great point. Exactly. Even, like, Shani Grimmond has kind of stepped away from being that typical influencer, and he's now a business owner. She has like a swimwear brand and stuff. I think they're not selling themselves as much now and they want to be able to step away from the influencer life and then have a business separately. I don't know about you guys, but I've seen a lot of conversation online around people not wanting to follow people that don't work. I say work in like inverted commerce because technically being an influencer is a job. But people that aren't working full time and they lose interest as soon as those people quit their jobs and start working full time as an influencer because they once saw themselves in that person and they can no longer relate to that person anymore. And so they kind of get their nose out of joint a little bit.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

About that person being able to step away from full time work and commence the influencer lifestyle. So it's a very interesting space. It's just gonna continue to evolve, I think. Definitely.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, absolutely. But definitely one I will be watching with eager eyes, that is for sure. But that wraps up this episode of Stylish Jonah Fleming. Thank you so much for taking us through that Trace.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

My pleasure.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I always feel for whoever's doing Trace. There's a lot of words. But that's all for this week. And thank you so much, Annika, for being here as well.

[Joanna Fleming]

We know you Pleasure.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ishameless media.com or you can slide into our dms over tyle underscoreish au and we of course, cannot forget to thank the mammoth Shameless media team who make this all possible. Our audio engineer, Liam Clayton, head of podcast, Lucy Hunt, senior podcast producer Kate Emmerburg, and of course, our wonderful researcher, Chloe Wilson, who makes these episodes of Trace possible. We'll be right back with you next Wednesday. See you then.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Bye.

[Joanna Fleming]

This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be aboriginal land.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Mish.

[Mish]

I feel like now is as good a time as ever to remind the listeners that we now do two exclusive Shame Moore episodes a month.

[G]

We sure do. Shame More is such a special outlet to have the kind of conversations that just feel a little more personal. If that sounds like something you guys would enjoy, you are going to love our new series, Inner Circle.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, totally.

[Mish]

In our Inner Circle episodes, we answer some pretty philosophical questions from our closest friends and family. And the catch is we have to guess who asked the question and we have no idea what's coming for us when we get on Mike.

[G]

Yeah, we do sometimes have to phone a friend or two if we're feeling stuck as well.

[Mish]

Yeah, that's what we did last month. So that's one episode a month. And for our second monthly Shame or Drop, we discuss our current Roman Empire. The thing we just cannot get out of our minds.

[G]

I love recording those episodes. One of my favorite Roman Empire recordings was the discussion about our decision to actually close the Facebook group, something we get asked about all the time.

[Mish]

Yeah, I think my favorite might be the one we just recorded last month about needing more parties in the world. The cool thing about Shame Moore is that if you subscribe, you get access to all of our past exclusive episodes. So if you're in a podcast listening rut, Shaymore's got you.

[G]

And of course, everything on Shame More is ad free, including our regular Monday and Thursday episodes.

[Mish]

Yeah, not a bad deal if you ask me. You can subscribe to Shame More on Spotify or Apple Podcasts on Spotify. Just search for Shame More or One Word on Apple. You can just go right to the regular Shameless podcast feed and subscribe to there. Alrighty, that's all from us.