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- [00:00]
A
Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.
- [00:08]
B
And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.
- [00:12]
A
And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.
- [00:21]
B
That's right.
- [00:21]
C
Hey.
- [00:21]
B
Hey. So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.
- [00:26]
A
And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. So, spoiler alert, he'll be wrong.
- [00:33]
B
News flash, I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:40]
D
Hey, party people, it's Rosie Perez. If you like salsa as much as I do, I hope you'll join me in person at wnyc. We're celebrating a new podcast that goes deep into the history of salsa in Nueva York. We'll talk about the music and get a special live performance from two time Latin Grand Grammy winner, Ella Brick. June 30th tickets@wnyc.org events.
- [01:19]
E
When you visit Frank Ross, you never really know how it's going to go till you walk through the door of his room at the healthcare facility where he's living now with dementia. Some days are good and others, well, they can be really bad.
- [01:36]
F
So we're getting ready to leave Frank and the last couple hours were rough.
- [01:42]
E
That's producer Julieta Martinelli, who's been visiting the 93 year old man to document his efforts to die with dignity outside of prison. Frank was medically transferred out of prison in January under Pennsylvania statute, but most commonly known as compassionate release.
- [02:00]
F
He, I guess, hasn't been taking his medication and was adamant that Suave not leave him.
- [02:11]
E
After a day together, Frank begs Suave, his friend and mentee, to please take him home with him. He doesn't want to be at the facility anymore. Suave is patient and kind with Frank and he explains yet again that unfortunately, they don't have permission to leave. At least not yet. But Suave loves Frank like a father. And when they leave, it's clear that seeing Frank's struggle is weighing on him.
- [02:40]
F
And I don't know, we were just talking about the emotional toll. How do you feel?
- [02:47]
C
This is what come with taking care of somebody you care for. You gotta deal with it. That's part of bringing him Home. He don't understand, like, I can't take him with me even if I wanted to. I can't, you know. His dementia is at an early stage for 93, where if you talk about present stuff, you lose him. But if you talk about his life, he's there. He could remember his mother, his childhood. So he remembers some things. He know what he wants and he knows he don't want to be here because to a certain extent he knows, like, why am I here? Why is it pushing me around?
- [03:31]
E
This is not the life Frank envisioned after release, nor suave it when he prayed and hoped that Frank would be allowed to leave prison. Amidst his growing health issues. All Frank wants now is to spend time with his family and for the world to know. This formerly imprisoned writer is still writing. This is the reality of compassionate release in a system that mandates waiting until the very end to be free. And as challenging as it's been, it's about to get even more complicated.
- [04:16]
F
From Futuro Media and Latino USA. I'm Julieta Martinelli. This is Release to Die Part 3. In this three episode miniseries, we follow Frank Ross, a 93 year old man sentenced to die in prison and his journey to the outside through compassionate release. Frank's case highlights one of the fastest growing trends in incarceration in the U.S. something that experts call the graying of American prisons. We also take a deep dive into Pennsylvania's compassionate release program. How healthcare inside prisons is failing older people and what it means to have a chance to die.
- [05:13]
E
As the months pass, Frank continues to fight to make progress. He's attending physical therapy, doing his little workouts, learning how to get in and out of his wheelchair and into his bed on his own. Then in early April, another phone call changes things again. This time the news on the other end of the line is very different from the call that alerted us to Frank's impending freedom. And in fact, this call is quite the opposite. Senior producer Julieta Martinelli picks up this story from here.
- [05:48]
G
Hello?
- [05:49]
F
Hey, I'm recording. What's going on?
- [05:52]
G
Oh, man. You know Frank Ross, he lost all that weight, so they had to come and put a different ankle monitor.
- [06:00]
F
When I met Frank, he was a large man. When I saw him again on one of those trips, it was shocking to see how much smaller he seemed. Suave said he had lost more than 60 pounds since his release. Most of it happened relatively recently. Not long after that visit, Frank's ankle monitor slipped off his ankle. Yeah, I remember that. There was an issue with that a couple days ago. People like Frank who are released under compassionate release must wear a GPS ankle monitor at all times. It's part of the requirements, basically a way for the Department of Corrections to keep tabs on where a person is at all times. Even though as a senior citizen released to a health care facility due to illness, Frank can hardly walk.
- [06:51]
G
So the doc came in to try to put a new ankle monitor and he refused.
- [06:58]
F
It should have been a simple thing, but on that day, Suave says he wasn't there to help. Suave says he was told that Frank refused to let the lieutenant from the doc put the monitor back on. He didn't seem to understand what was going on. He was confused and scared. It was one of those bad days. So someone called Suave, hoping that hearing from him would help Frank. But instead he cursed me out.
- [07:29]
G
He said, you, not Suave, bring me the real Suave. You're an imposter. I don't know you.
- [07:34]
F
Suavez said the officer from the doc understood that Frank was under distress.
- [07:40]
G
I told the lieutenant, Lieutenant, he's 93 years old. His dementia is progressing. He's like, yeah, but I have to write a report.
- [07:47]
F
That's what the lieutenant, he's 93 and he can't walk. Not long after, the doc filed a motion with the court letting the judge know that Frank was refusing the ankle monitor and therefore violating the agreement for release.
- [08:03]
G
Now it goes back to the judge. So I don't know what's going on. So I don't even know what's going to happen. I will find out Monday. The doc has to go in front of the judge. And the lieutenant was real nice. He said, he said, I'm not one of them people that's going to force this. I'm not going to physically put it on him because he's 93 years old.
- [08:24]
F
No, obviously. But it feels even more cruel to be like we have to take you back to prison. You can't put a monitor on him, but you can haul him back to prison. But that's exactly how the law works. Shortly after a hearing was set on the court calendar. Frank was now facing prison without the cognitive ability to understand why. I arrived in Philly on April 28th. Just a few days later, I am out of breath. I'm trying to make my way through the Philadelphia airport. We took a last minute flight at 6am to try and make it to to Frank's hearing. As I run to catch an Uber to the courthouse, I wonder if Frank has any idea how much of a risk he's facing and how big of a day today is for him. I make it to court just in time for his case to be called. There's no recording allowed in the courtroom, so I squeeze in the last row of a crowded bench to witness the proceedings. One by one, the Department of Corrections, Frank's lawyers and the judge go around and around arguing the issue. The doc argues that the law is simple. He either agrees to put on a monitor or he needs to go back to prison. Frank's lawyers ask for accommodations because of his health issues. They say that even if they can put the monitor back on, Frank's health issues cause water retention and swelling. If his ankles swell again, the monitor could injure him. If it's too loose, it will fall off again. They ask the doc to consider using a different monitor, one that they can put on his wrist or even on his wheelchair. They remind the court that Frank can't walk, that patients on the memory care floor where he resides don't have access to an elevator, that they're under 24. 7 care. They say he's basically under lockdown already. Suave is called to the stand. He testifies that he's Frank's caretaker, about the cognitive decline that he's witnessed and why Franck suddenly no longer understands why he needs to wear a monitor. Suave promises that he will get Frank to agree to put the monitor back on if they can just have more time. Nearly an hour passes like this, back and forth. The Department of Corrections will not budge on the monitor, and they refuse to consider putting it anywhere else on his body, like around his wrist, where it might be less painful or confusing for Frank. Then the judge makes his ruling. Outside the courthouse, I catch up to Frank's lawyers for the verdict.
- [11:48]
H
The judge is giving everybody a little bit more time to try again to put the monitor on him when he has some trusted individuals around him.
- [11:55]
F
That is attorney Rupali Rashadwar. She's there with Lala Serrano from the Abolitionist Law center in paper. And they have represented Frank through the entire compassionate release application. And they've done the same for many others. They tell me the hearing shows how these compassionate release cases, as difficult as they are to win, are never really quite finished.
- [12:22]
H
It's just unimaginably cruel. As a result of his sickness, he's going to keep declining. He's going to have cognitive decline, and because of that, can't understand some of the conditions and comply with them. Everybody knows he's not going anywhere. He's not a flight risk. He's not a danger. And even so, the department's still moving to try to send him back to prison.
- [12:41]
F
The judge has given them six days to get Frank to put the monitor back on. Next Monday, the doc will return to see Frank. If he refuses, well, that could be it. For today, though, it's a win. Frank remains free, but Rupali says Frank's case is representative of a broader issue, the cruelty that permeates the way the compassionate release statute is handled in the state. Here is Lalo Serrano
- [13:14]
I
just the eligibility criteria are exceptionally cruel. Like the death date that you have to have, you have to have a terminal diagnosis. It's essentially a doctor telling you you have less than one year to live. And then this statutory restriction we're dealing with today is this under electronic monitoring. So not only do you have to be so exceptionally ill, and then after that you're subject to scrutiny and instability when you're trying to live out your final days in peace.
- [13:43]
F
The reality of the situation is that if Frank is too sick to understand that he needs to wear an ankle monitor, he will be sent back to prison. Despite that same illness being the actual reason for his release in the first place. It really doesn't make much sense. It's one of the issues with how the compassionate relief statute is written. It leaves no wiggle room for the reality of dealing with a person who is ill. Acast Powers the World's Best
- [14:35]
J
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- [15:02]
F
started connecting with all these people on
- [15:03]
J
LinkedIn and I saw Target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice.
- [15:08]
F
Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance
- [15:12]
J
and the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something. Check outside Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube.
- [15:30]
B
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [15:36]
F
Acast.com hey, it's Maria Hinojosa.
- [15:40]
E
If you like salsa music as much as I Do I know you're going to want to join me in person at wnyc? Rosie Perez is going to be joining me to celebrate the release of a new podcast that goes deep into the history of salsa and Nueva yor. And we'll get a special live performance from Latin Grammy winner ella Brigg. That's June 30th at the Green Space at WNYC. Tickets at WNYC. See you there,
- [16:13]
F
I think. So that's what I was gonna ask. After court, Suave and I rush over to see Frank. Suave is eager to explain to Frank that the men will be back and he will need to let them put the monitor back on.
- [16:30]
K
Hello. How are yours?
- [16:32]
F
I walk in and hug Frank. Suave hangs back, but I can tell that Frank knows exactly who I am today. It's a good day. His eyes light up as I greet him. Suave walks up behind his wheelchair and hugs him tight.
- [16:50]
K
That's a bear hug. That's the best you can do?
- [16:53]
F
Frank smiles wide. He knows that Suave is there to see him. Hi, Frank. How you doing? You know who's hugging you?
- [17:02]
K
I know.
- [17:04]
F
This crazy guy behind you. How you doing today?
- [17:08]
K
They've been dogging me.
- [17:11]
C
I got better just to come here.
- [17:15]
F
Suave doesn't waste any time. Frank is sitting in his wheelchair in front of the tv. The box that he brought from prison, filled with his writing, is open next to his bed. Suave pulls up a chair and sits down in front of him.
- [17:31]
C
Cause I came to talk to you. We just came from court. We just came from the judge.
- [17:38]
E
Okay.
- [17:39]
C
All right. So I gotta talk to you.
- [17:41]
K
Oh, come on.
- [17:44]
C
The doc is trying to take you back to prison.
- [17:46]
K
Okay, that's good.
- [17:48]
C
No, it's not good.
- [17:50]
K
Why?
- [17:51]
C
Because if you go back, you never coming out again. It's not good.
- [17:58]
F
The conversation goes in circles for nearly an hour. Frank doesn't understand why he risks going back to prison. Suave is patient. He explains the same thing in different ways.
- [18:10]
C
Many times we managed to convince the judge that there was no necessary to take you back to prison. I'm being honest with you. I don't want you to go back to prison. Right.
- [18:25]
F
Frank is confused. I can see the fear in Suave's eyes. How much is riding on him convincing Frank that he needs to get the monitor back on to try and keep him focused on the real issue without scaring or frustrating him. Situations like this are exactly why lawyers, activists and some legislators in Pennsylvania have been pushing for a complete revamp of the compassionate release law over the last year, they've made considerable progress through a state bill called HB150.
- [19:06]
L
HB150, which was introduced by state Representative Rick Krajewski and former State Representative Torrent Eck, seeks to expand access to medical release for chronically and terminally ill incarcerated people.
- [19:20]
F
That's Celeste's trustee. She's a longtime reform advocate. Speaking at a press conference announcing that the bill had passed the House with bipartisan support last December, she worked alongside a number of organizations, including Frank's own lawyers, politicians, and local advocates, to help drum up support for the bill.
- [19:42]
L
HB 150 is an extremely necessary piece of legislation that we have been trying to move for so long.
- [19:52]
F
But Celeste admits that by the time HB150 passed the House, the bill didn't look quite as they'd imagined.
- [20:03]
L
There have been a number of different versions of this bill in previous sessions that actually had broader language that looked at including age and medical need. The legislature didn't seem interested in taking a look at finding relief based on whether you were old or whether you were sick. And so the strategy was to narrow the bill language to just have medical criteria included.
- [20:33]
F
The current bill doesn't include advanced age as reason enough to consider compassionate release, but it does open up the requirements related to illness. It would expand to consider people who are seriously ill but not yet considered terminal, people that could be better cared for on the outside sooner without having to wait to have a so called death date. Here's Celeste, trustee again.
- [21:01]
L
Prisons were not meant to be nursing homes, but that's what it has become, right? Our prisons have ended up becoming something where you walk in and you see people in wheelchairs who have complete mobility issues. You see people in walkers, you see people who are unable to care for themselves. You see people who do not even understand why they are there.
- [21:26]
F
Celeste says the state representatives were able to gather bipartisan support because the bill makes sense. It could save the prison system as much as $19 million in health care costs every year. All of this is funded by taxpayers.
- [21:43]
L
It's like over $40 million a year that Pennsylvania is spending on medical care for these folks. Right? And as a system that has the third largest impact on the commonwealth's budget, it blows my mind.
- [22:02]
F
Now that the bill has passed the Pennsylvania House of Representatives, it needs to be taken up by the Senate to become law. Her Hope is that HB150 will pass as currently written, allowing incarcerated people to petition for medical release when they have any medical condition deemed chronic and debilitating. Basically, people that can't take care of themselves shouldn't be in prison. These amendments would have potentially allowed Frank to be released much sooner. If the bill passes the Senate, they estimate that as many as 700 incarcerated people could immediately become eligible for compassionate release. But Celeste says six months after the bill passed the House, the Pennsylvania Senate still has made no move to take this up for a vote.
- [22:56]
L
We are absolutely at a point where if we don't do something soon, we cannot afford to continue it. When you remove a person from society during incarceration, that is supposed to be the punishment. Removal from society. The punishment is not lack of medical care.
- [23:20]
F
Celeste says she's trying to remain hopeful. The Senate has until November to make a move. If they don't, the whole process would need to start over again.
- [23:32]
L
It is always frustrating when you make such headway like we did with HB150, and then things stall. The reality of legislative and policy work, though, is that that doesn't does happen sometimes. Right? But we will not let up.
- [24:04]
F
While there is hope that the policy will make things more humane for other elders in Pennsylvania in the coming years, the reality is that Frank's fate continues to rest on the current law as written. Back in his room, after a few hours of talking, Suave makes some headway.
- [24:24]
C
Listen to what I'm saying. I love you.
- [24:26]
K
I know it.
- [24:27]
C
To death.
- [24:28]
K
I know it.
- [24:29]
C
Do us a part.
- [24:30]
K
I know it.
- [24:30]
C
I respect you.
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K
I know it.
- [24:32]
C
I will always will.
- [24:34]
K
I know all that.
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C
Right? Do you care about me?
- [24:39]
K
I love you. You're bum.
- [24:41]
C
Say it again.
- [24:42]
K
I love you. I always will. Love you. You, my son, my family.
- [24:46]
C
That's right.
- [24:47]
F
Frank finally tells Suave what is stressing him so much. He says he can't stand being inside this room all the time anymore. It's not much different being locked inside this building as it was being in prison. He wants to visit his family, to feel the breeze. Taking Frank out of this building is possible, but it requires approval from the Department of Corrections. So Suave makes a promise.
- [25:16]
C
Listen to them. I need you to look at me, Pop. And we could go out. You just need the transportation, right? I'm willing to do that. Right, but they're not gonna let you go until we get to this issue, which is they want an ankle monitor or monitor. Right. And then we could take you out anywhere you want to go.
- [25:41]
K
All right? Can you do that?
- [25:45]
F
In the end, Frank agrees to do his best to remember that he needs to put the monitor back on. Next Monday, they make plans for Suave to spend the night with him the Sunday prior. He promises he won't let him forget why they're here. Later in the afternoon, Suave makes a list of the items that Frank would like from the grocery store across the street. It's a good distraction, talking about his favorite snacks. Before we head out to buy the items. We guide Frank's wheelchair to the community room, where other patients are eating lunch and listening to a volunteer play music. But before we go into the room, Frank signals us to come closer. He wants to tell us something.
- [26:37]
K
Here's him. I'm 93 years old. I ran into an old broad.
- [26:48]
F
Frank says a few days ago in that same community room, he noticed a woman, another patient.
- [26:57]
C
My attention there.
- [26:58]
F
She caught his eye immediately.
- [27:02]
K
That's right. I'm telling you, somebody would never imagine. I run into a woman. I'm sitting, eating, dying. And she. This woman come in. She's 92, I'm 91.
- [27:20]
C
And suddenly I said, whoa. You had the tingles.
- [27:26]
K
No essence, you know? So I told one of the two of them, I said, tell her that I would like to see her, talk to her. And she said, okay. So I started talking to her. And this thing started growing, growing. And I told my kids about it.
- [27:48]
F
They sat together and shared some words. He says, she's a younger woman. She's 91. He's pretty smitten. He says he's even told his kids,
- [28:00]
C
you want me to bring you some flowers so you can give it to her? No, but I think it would.
- [28:04]
K
You.
- [28:09]
F
Messes with Frank. He tells him that women like flowers. He's been out of the game too long. Suave is beaming. It's the first time that we see Frank smiling like this on this visit. He seems happy. We return from the grocery store with packets of tuna and other goodies. Frank's request. Frank still craves some of the same meals that he would have in prison. It's kind of become comfort food. Suave also comes back with a single red rose, which he pulls out from under his coat. They whisper and giggle. They look like young boys. Frank says he's shy. He tells Suave he hasn't interacted with a woman in decades.
- [29:07]
K
Do me a favor. No, do me a favor for real. I know what I'm doing. What about you give it to us?
- [29:15]
F
Frank tells Suave to go give her the rose for him. He passes it to him under the table as if it's contraband. He nods over to the woman sitting a few tables over, eating lunch with her caretaker.
- [29:31]
K
No she said, we love you.
- [29:35]
F
Suave does exactly that. He walks over, hands the woman the flower and points at Frank. He says a few words and she accepts the flower. She smiles and looks down at her plate. Frank looks away. He's sheepish, embarrassed. I feel like I'm standing in a high school cafeteria and I'm watching two people with a new crush.
- [30:05]
K
Oh, okay. All right. I see you guys.
- [30:08]
F
Okay. I'll see you very soon.
- [30:12]
K
I know, I know.
- [30:14]
F
This time, Frank. Frank doesn't beg Suave to stay with him. He shoes us off. It's like he's embarrassed of us in front of his friends. By now, we know that the good moments don't last. But maybe neither do the bad ones. That's the cruelty and gift of dementia. And it seems that today, Frank has something to look forward to. The following Sunday, Suave fulfilled his promise. He slept over. And when the lieutenant from the DOC showed up, Frank remembered why he was there. He allowed them to put the monitor on. And for now, the request to return him to prison was closed. But Suave, Frank's family and his lawyers still live with that fear that the Monitor will once again create an opportunity for the DLC to demand his return to prison. For now, though, Frank seems to have found something to live for in the immediate. He's still talking to his lady friend. He says he finally feels inspired to write a romantic story like the Notebook, he says, but one that doesn't end in loneliness. Release to Die is a production of Latino USA Futuro Studios and Futuro Investigates. This episode was produced by ME, Julieta Martinelli and edited by Marlon Bishop. It was mixed by Stephanie LeBeau and JJ Krubin. Scoring and sound design by Jacob Rosati. Fact checking for this episode by Roxana Aguirre, Victoria Estrada, Jessica Ellis and Nancy Trujillo are our production managers. Marie Nojosa, Penile Ramirez, Marlon Bishop and Maria Garcia are executive producers. Release to Die was made possible by Public Welfare foundation, catalyzing transformative approaches to justice that are community led, restorative and racially just.
- [32:55]
B
What makes a leader worth following? What should you really care about in your job? As technology is changing so quickly, is it just gonna be about machines talking to other machines? I mean, should you quit your job and start something on your own, what would that take? What does success and risk look like when we're all at the starting gate together? These are the questions we answer each week on lead human with 20. Jack Myers and Tim Spengler join us each week and subscribe at your favorite podcast platform and YouTube. We'll tell stories, we'll hear from some of the best, and we'll try to figure this out together.
- [33:29]
D
In uptown New York City, underdogs created a sound that changed music forever.
- [33:36]
F
And we called it salsa.
- [33:38]
D
And one label captured that sound like no records. I'm Rosie Perez, and this is our thing, the Birth of salsa in Nueva York, an original podcast from Futuros Studios. Listen now, wherever you get your podcast.