Someone's Hand to Hold - Ep. 3

Summary

Podcast Summary: Suave – "Someone's Hand to Hold" (Episode 3)

Episode Title: Someone's Hand to Hold
Host/Author: Futuro Media
Release Date: April 29, 2025

---

Overview

"Suave," the Pulitzer Prize-winning podcast by Futuro Media, delves into the complex journey of Luis "Suave" Gonzalez, a former juvenile lifer released after 31 years in prison. Season two continues to explore the lingering shadows of incarceration, focusing on Suave's struggle to redefine his sense of freedom, rebuild relationships, and navigate the challenges of life outside prison. Episode 3, titled "Someone's Hand to Hold," specifically examines the intricate dynamics of Suave's friendship with journalist Maria Hinojosa, their evolving relationship, and the broader implications of reintegration into society.

---

Friendship Dynamics: Maria and Suave

The episode opens with a nostalgic portrayal of Suave and Maria's relationship, highlighting their unique bond formed during Suave's incarceration.

• Julieta Martinelli (Narrator): "[...] bringing Maria Hinojosa to the stage. Suave gives Maria his arm. He walks her up the steps onto the stage." (02:25)

Maria reflects on their deep connection:

• Maria Hinojosa: "Friends are basically someone who you would be prepared to take a bullet for. A friend is somebody who you have deep communication with on multiple layers of your life and where there is deep love and respect." (03:30)

In contrast, Suave grapples with the concept of friendship:

• Suave Gonzalez: "First of all, I can't describe it because I don't know what friendship is. I really don't. I have a lot of people that I associate with, but when it comes to friends, I don't even know what that is because I come from a place where there is no friends." (03:48)

Challenges of Relationships After Incarceration

Suave's reentry into society has left him ill-equipped to handle personal relationships, especially those requiring vulnerability and trust.

• Julieta Martinelli: "Friendship or intimacy in general, for that matter, has been one of the biggest challenges for Suave since getting out of prison." (04:40)

Suave's Struggles with Intimacy and Trust

Suave expresses his discomfort with the expectations of modern relationships, feeling that they infringe upon his hard-earned freedom.

• Suave Gonzalez: "Ladies want too much. They want you to call them when you get to work. What are you doing? When are you coming home? And that's what relationships and commitment feels like. That feels too much like prison to me." (09:47)

He reveals his reluctance to depend on others:

• Suave Gonzalez: "I don't feel that I need to seek for help or advice from Maria all the time. I could do on my own. I can handle on my own." (27:35)

Conflict and Miscommunication

The friendship between Suave and Maria is strained by misunderstandings and unmet expectations, leading to frequent conflicts.

• Maria Hinojosa: "I did really feel that way. I did really feel like, wow, Suave, okay, all these years. And then like, some other person suddenly just becomes a family member just like that." (19:55)

The Hospital Incident: A Turning Point

A pivotal moment occurs when Suave faces a medical emergency, revealing the fragility of their relationship.

• Maria Hinojosa: "I was weeping. I was terrified." (12:27)

Suave recounts his panic attack and Maria's overwhelming response:

• Suave Gonzalez: "They put me under this machine and I felt like I was being strapped down. Fucking phone." (12:48)

Maria's determination to help highlights her deep concern but also her overbearing nature:

• Maria Hinojosa: "I have to take care of this person. [...] I'm gonna fucking save the day here." (13:06)

However, Suave resents her intervention:

• Suave Gonzalez: "I don't want to hurt her feelings, but that's too much." (14:32)

Maria's Emotional Response and Professional Boundaries

Maria struggles to balance her professional role with personal emotions, leading to tensions in their friendship.

• Maria Hinojosa: "As a journalist, I can tell you I am very competitive and also very protective and also very territorial." (19:03)

She confronts Suave about his distancing behavior:

• Maria Hinojosa: "I became a mother figure in your life. Because that's not what I want to be." (25:34)

Growth and Change in Suave's Relationships

Despite the conflicts, both Suave and Maria recognize the need for growth and adaptation in their relationship.

• Suave Gonzalez: "I do have to do better with that because I do tend to shut down from everybody." (28:16)

Maria reflects on the evolution of their bond:

• Maria Hinojosa: "We're working through ego and jealousy and other people getting involved. But at the same time, I'm reading that as we're working through a friendship." (30:55)

Conclusion

Episode 3 of "Suave" presents a profound exploration of friendship, trust, and personal growth in the aftermath of incarceration. Through candid conversations and emotional recounts, the episode underscores the complexities Suave faces in forming and maintaining meaningful relationships. Maria's unwavering support juxtaposed with Suave's fear of vulnerability paints a vivid picture of the challenges inherent in redefining one's life post-incarceration. As the season progresses, listeners are left contemplating the true essence of freedom and the human desire for connection.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Maria Hinojosa (03:30): "Friends are basically someone who you would be prepared to take a bullet for."

• Suave Gonzalez (03:48): "When it comes to friends, I don't even know what that is because I come from a place where there is no friends."

• Suave Gonzalez (09:47): "Ladies want too much. [...] That feels too much like prison to me."

• Suave Gonzalez (27:35): "I can handle on my own."

• Maria Hinojosa (12:27): "I was weeping. I was terrified."

• Suave Gonzalez (14:32): "I don't want to hurt her feelings, but that's too much."

• Maria Hinojosa (19:03): "As a journalist, I can tell you I am very competitive and also very protective and also very territorial."

• Suave Gonzalez (28:16): "I do have to do better with that because I do tend to shut down from everybody."

---

Timestamp Guide:

• 00:06 – 05:04: Introduction and initial setup of the relationship between Maria and Suave.
• 05:04 – 10:24: Exploration of friendship and intimacy challenges post-incarceration.
• 10:24 – 16:19: Discussion on relationship standards and Suave's views on commitment.
• 16:19 – 25:59: Suave's professional success and its impact on personal relationships.
• 25:59 – 33:08: Detailed account of the hospital incident and its repercussions.
• 33:08 – 35:35: Suave's reflections on running from problems and hopes for stability.
• 35:35 – End: Insights into Suave's ongoing relationships and the enduring impact of his past.

---

This summary provides a comprehensive overview of Episode 3 of "Suave," capturing the essence of the discussions, key moments, and emotional undertones that define Suave's journey towards rediscovering freedom and intimacy.

Transcript

[Maria Hinojosa]

Season two of Suave was made possible by the Mellon Foundation. Mellon makes grants to support visionaries and communities that unlock the power of the arts and humanities. To help connect us all [e-mail] When I founded Futuro, I imagined a home for journalism with radical transparency. I wanted a newsroom where I wasn't the only Latina behind the mic. Now Futuro is becoming a home for more voices than ever. Help grow this future by joining our new membership program. You'll get exclusive interviews, whole season binges behind the scenes chisme shape the future of storytelling. Join Futuro. Visit our website Futuromediagroup.org joinplus ET Not Eva's.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Swave is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Sawyer, what's up? Damn, you look good, bro.

[Julieta Martinelli]

It's September 2022, and we're in Philadelphia for a day of activities that Suave has planned for Maria. And we're starting at a place that Suave knows really well, Community College of Philadelphia, where he's been working for more than a year. We make our way through long hallways filled with students into a large auditorium. I want you to join me in bringing to the stage one of the top 25 Latina in the United States, Maria Hinojosa. Suave gives Maria his arm. He walks her up the steps onto the stage.

[Maria Hinojosa]

I never get walked up to stage like that by anybody. Thank you. Suave. What's up? How you doing? What's up? Oh, my God. Well, I'm gonna tell you my story.

[Julieta Martinelli]

With Suave, but Maria tells the story that we've all basically memorized by now. How she and Suave met at Graterford Prison while he was incarcerated. How they kept in touch over the years. How things have changed from reporter and source to friendship.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for this opportunity. Fel Suave, thank you so much for everything you've done for me. For your friendship.

[Julieta Martinelli]

After years trying to decipher their relationship, Pen pals, Interviewer, interviewee. Creative collaborators Maria and Suave have been saying the F word openly now, friendship, Although, what does it actually mean? I recently asked both Suave and Maria to give me their own definitions of friendship.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Friends are basically someone who you would be prepared to take a bullet for. A friend is somebody who you have deep communication with on multiple layers of your life and where there is deep love and respect.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

First of all, I can't describe it because I don't know what friendship is. I really don't. I have a lot of people that I associate with, but when it comes to friends, I don't even know what that is because I come from a place where there is no friends.

[Julieta Martinelli]

In this friendship in particular between Maria and Suave, it's had some highs, but also it's had some really rough spots.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Hold on.

[Maria Hinojosa]

If you want to go there, you want to know what?

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Fuck you.

[Maria Hinojosa]

That you didn't call me.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

You're going to apologize to me. I'm Maria. All sudden, nobody gropes me and remembers that. All right, but.

[Maria Hinojosa]

And that's when I said to him, I was like, no one treats me this way, Swabi. No one.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Friendship or intimacy in general, for that matter, has been one of the biggest challenges for Suave since getting out of prison. How to connect with someone, how to be vulnerable, how to be open. All of these things that he never really had to think about. Because in prison, it was so important to protect himself, to close himself off from other people.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Someone that's been in prison for decades, it's going to take a long time, gain that trust, because in the back of my mind, always going to be, if I ever get locked up, will you stick by me?

[Julieta Martinelli]

From Futura Studios, this is Suave. I'm Julieta Martinelli. In 2017, David Luis Suave Gonzalez was released from prison after 31 years, serving a life sentence without parole. He was one of thousands of juvenile lifers granted a second chance at life. This is a story about life after incarceration and the search for the true meaning of freedom. This is season two. On this episode, love, relationships and the fear of the unknown.

[Maria Hinojosa]

So on Suave's first day out of prison seven years ago, he showed me his bucket list. What?

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

My bucket list.

[Maria Hinojosa]

You have it written down?

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Yes.

[Maria Hinojosa]

And one of the things that was on it was, was getting married.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Be a good man, take full responsibility for my actions. I checked that one out. Find me a good woman and marry her. I haven't done that yet.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Now, seven years later, Suave isn't married, but he is in a relationship. After Maria's talk at the school in Philly, Suave invites us to his home.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Not his studio apartment, his apartment, other home. The one that he shares with a special someone.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Hey, baby, why are you taking your shoes? Look at these. Here I'm surrounded by.

[Julieta Martinelli]

You can take them home. For some context, Suave has been pretty secretive about his dating life with us. But with this person, it seems that something has changed. So on this day, we take an Uber together to North Philly. And there we meet his partner, Lucero. She's all smiles. Lucero is Puerto Rican. She's a mom of a teenager and a grown son who, in one of those weird twists of fate, turns out, was actually a correctional officer at SCI Graterford while Suave was incarcerated.

[Maria Hinojosa]

And so we get to the home and. And honestly, it's adorable. It's a two story Philadelphia row house. And it just feels like a really nicely kept home with, like pretty pillows, scented candles, you know, it was like, wow, this is like a home, like a real home for Suave. I end up actually going to the second floor to use the washroom. And that's where I see Suave's bedroom, you know, like the king size bed with the, like, little hearts, you know, on each side of the bed where he and his companera share a room. And I really was. I was like, oh, my God. Oh, God. I've never seen, like this part of Suave. Real, like kind of home life in.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

A real good space relationship. Wow. What's up, Lucero? How would they put this there?

[Maria Hinojosa]

But the issue of romance, sex, intimacy, like that was very different when Swavi was in prison.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Foreign guard, Anytime I want and get away with it. It's exciting that you could have someone behind a soda machine in the visiting room and have some intercourse with them and don't get caught. I came home with the prison visiting room mentality. It was about, yeah, I just want to smash. And then you go after the woman that just want to be with dudes that come home from prison. Unfortunately, there's a whole lot of them. How much time you did? Oh, 31 years. You coming home with me tonight? Because in their head is some sexual fantasy going on. I just want some fun. And boom. That's not the way it goes in real life. Out here.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Out here, the standards for a good relationship were very different. And for Suave, they felt almost impossible to meet.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Ladies want too much. They want you to call them when you get to work. What are you doing? When are you coming home? And that's what relationships and commitment feels like. That feels too much like prison to me. Being in a relationship is giving up part of your freedom? Am I willing to give my freedom up again? Because I'm searching for love, man. Fuck love. If that comes. If it comes to that. No, no, no, no, no and no.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Being accountable to somebody else like that, it was uncomfortable.

[Julieta Martinelli]

And Suave will be the first to admit he's attracted and dare I even say, maybe even a little addicted to drama.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I like conflict that comes from me being in prison, being ready for whatever. And when you bring that conflict into relationship, it's dangerous because you might miss out on something that could be good for you. But you just got this thing going on in your head that you don't want to hear it.

[Julieta Martinelli]

That thing that he mentioned about feeling that relationships can feel too intrusive, that doesn't just come up with his girlfriend, but also with Maria. And a great example of that was the whole hospital incident.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Yeah. So this whole scene was very scary. Let me set it up for you. It was a few years back. I'm getting home from the Dominican Republic and I get this text from Suave, and it says, I'm in the hospital. And then he goes, like, radio silent. So, you know, I'm calling Julieta, I'm calling his brother. I'm calling any contact that I have close to Suave, just like, where is he? And of course, my biggest fear is that nobody knows where he is. Finally, my phone rings, and I take it immediately, and it's Suave. But he doesn't sound like himself.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Hello?

[Unnamed Caller]

Oh, my God. Just tell me, first of all, are you going to be okay?

Well, I hope so. I've been in the travel unit for about a day and a half now.

Oh, my God, Suave. And now is when you're calling me?

[Maria Hinojosa]

A day and a half.

[Unnamed Caller]

Why didn't anybody call me?

I thought I was going to be all right.

Oh, God.

[Maria Hinojosa]

I mean, you can hear it in the tape. I. I was weeping. I was terrified.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Suave says he was just walking down the street when he became unbalanced and he took a massive fall. He had blood in his brain, a dislocated jaw, and three fractured ribs.

[Maria Hinojosa]

But Suave says that wasn't the worst part.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

They put me under this machine and I felt like I was being strapped down. Fucking phone.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Suave.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Yeah, I'm here.

[Maria Hinojosa]

You mean you had a panic attack?

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Maria Hinojosa]

So what happens at that moment is that I'm on the phone freaking out, trying to get details, and then the doctor comes in. I absolutely was like, I have to take care of this person. The mother in me was just like, I have to take care of this person. I know how to manage hospitals. I know how to talk to doctors. My dad was a doctor. I Was like, honestly, I'm gonna fucking save the day here. I'm gonna help figure out what the fuck is happening so we can get Swabe out of there.

[Julieta Martinelli]

You start trying to call the hospital, talk to his doctors. But after trying to get more involved in his care, Suave actually tells me that he isn't really happy about it.

[Unnamed Caller]

So Maria called me, like, 7:00 in the morning. I didn't answer at first. She kept calling and calling and calling and calling. I said, oh, my God. Like, she would have stopped calling. Let me talk to a doctor. I don't want to talk to the doctor. There's no doctor here. That's too much. That is too much. I don't want to hurt her feelings, but that's too much.

[Julieta Martinelli]

I know, but, you know, I think she just thinks that she's helping because she knows that you're there by yourself, and I think she's just worried. And it's not just Maria. It's also his girlfriend.

[Unnamed Caller]

They're the fucking same way. Are you being nice to these nurses? You gotta be nice. Make sure you say this. Don't say it this way. I'm like, yo, yo, stop. I told you before to go to the hospital. Why do you listen? Oh, my God. I'm like, oh, my God, stop. I was like, man, listen, go to bed. You more stressed. You're more stressed out than I am.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Because they love you.

[Maria Hinojosa]

So. So I have to say, I. I find this whole thing really interesting, Julieta, because until I heard this tape, you know, like, I had no idea that Suave was pissed off at me about the hospital stuff. Because, like, I'm just trying to help the guy, right? I mean, that's what a friend does. And, you know, when I jump in, I jump in. And for some people, that can be a lot.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Yeah, I mean, overall, at this point, things were still pretty good between the two of you. But over time, listening to calls that you two would have, you could tell that there were things that were straining the relationship.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Well, you know what?

[Maria Hinojosa]

No, no.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

You know why the white people do nothing?

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Because later on, they over in your face.

[Scott Payne]

Scott Payne spent nearly two decades working undercover as a biker, a neo Nazi, a drug dealer, and a killer. But his last big mission at the FBI was. Was the wildest of all.

[Unnamed Caller]

I have never had to burn Bibles. I have never had to burn an American flag, and I damn sure was never with a group of people that stole a goat, sacrificed it in a pagan ritual, and drank its blood. And I did all that in about three days with these guys.

[Scott Payne]

Listen to Agent Pale Horse, the second season of White Hot Hate, available now.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Swabi.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Yes. Good morning. What's up? Tired. Working. Back to working.

[Maria Hinojosa]

So you want to tell me all about it?

[Julieta Martinelli]

On this day, Suave is excited because things with his new podcast, Death by Incarceration, are actually going really well.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I'm really, really focused on what it is that I'm doing and the mission.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Since the Pulitzer, Suave has impressed a lot of folks in the media industry, including a man who recently became his new business partner and the co host of his podcast. And that seems to be a touchy subject for Maria.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Like I said, you know, maybe I'll get you to be able to do season two of Suave. I don't know. I mean, since Kevin is now your best friend and he's the only one you want to hang out with and do podcasts with, you know, I'll just take a step back.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Brothers.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Yeah, well, you know, no, no, I'm congratulating you, Suave. I'm very happy for you. But I don't know about this Kevin dude. Like, you were my best friend, and all of a sudden he, like, wants to do all podcasts with you. I'm a little bit like, what up? You know, but. But whatever.

[Julieta Martinelli]

So, Maria, when I'm listening to this, you know, is it jealousy in your voice? Like, what. What's happening with you right now?

[Maria Hinojosa]

I know that you're uncomfortable. I understand that. But, you know, part of what we're doing is we're documenting it all. Suave is bien cabezadura. Do you know that saying?

[Julieta Martinelli]

You know, that he's hard headed.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Hard headed. Being stubborn.

[Julieta Martinelli]

And so are you a little bit.

[Maria Hinojosa]

I mean, I think I am too. That's what I was gonna say. And so am I. We both are, you know, very emotional.

[Julieta Martinelli]

And I guess I've always been curious if, like, if you've ever had a reaction like this with any of your other friends or, like, what you think it is about Suave that, like, brings.

[Maria Hinojosa]

This out when you say so. No, I have not. I mean, I don't talk to my friends like this. It's not my favorite moment. Right. But also, I did really feel that way. I did really feel like, wow, Suave, okay, all these years. And then like, some other person suddenly just becomes a family member just like that. Suave is somebody who I am connected to through all of these decades. Suave is also work. He's part of my work. He's part of my job. He's part of my journalistic endeavor. As a journalist, I can tell you I am very competitive and also very protective and also very territorial.

[Julieta Martinelli]

I'm actually kind of glad you brought that up, because your relationship has so many different dynamics. There's the business relationship with swat, and then there's the friendship. And when you're dealing with so many sort of, like, competing relationships, like if you got upset with a source for starting a show with somebody else and you're friends, so you have the comfort that you normally wouldn't have with a source, you might say things that you would not normally say.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Well, actually, if you have a relationship with a source and this source has an exclusive relationship with you, then as a journalist, I would say to the source, hey, we have what's called an exclusive. And now you're out talking to another journalist. So there's that.

[Julieta Martinelli]

I do acknowledge what you're saying, but in this conversation we just heard you. Don't tell Suave. Like, I'm. I'm not happy that you're telling your story. In another podcast, you say, I was your best friend, and now you have another best friend. You call him bro. Like, that doesn't seem how you would say it to a regular source.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Yeah, I know. And that's what's uncomfortable about the whole thing. So do it again. Maybe dial it back. Maybe realize that that emotional reaction maybe needed to be tabled because Suave himself is going through a whole other series of things. It is Monday, October 23rd. I can't believe we're already in October. The year's almost over, and I'm about to call Suave. So let's see what he has to say. I'm calling the day before Thanksgiving because I just now have decided that every time he pops into my mind, I'm just going to call him. So let's hopefully. Here we go. I'm sorry. The person you were trying to reach has a voicemail box that has not been set up yet. You know, and I started to get pissed off because, like, whenever I'm with Suave, he's on the phone all the time. So he's picking up other people's calls. Why isn't he picking up my calls?

[Julieta Martinelli]

And over time, to be honest, it just feels like the relationship is not healthy anymore. And you guys have some very tough phone calls. Like this one.

[Unnamed Caller]

Suave, look, I really don't understand. When I'm texting you, like, hey, I need to talk to you, like, this is important. It's about work, and you don't respond.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Thank you.

[Unnamed Caller]

Oh, okay. All right. That's why you can't even say, hey, I hear you calling. I know you're worried. Don't worry. But not even that you're going to tell me that for three weeks you're too busy to answer the text of mine? What kind of an would I have been if I didn't answer your calls from prison?

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Well, you know what?

[Unnamed Caller]

No, no.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

You know, why don't people do nothing?

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Because later on, they throw it in your face.

[Unnamed Caller]

Don't even. Okay, look, look, look. Okay.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I know you asked. I know that. You don't have to say that.

[Julieta Martinelli]

And then I hear about those arguments after hearing each of you complain about the other to me.

[Unnamed Caller]

And that's when I said to him, I was like, no one treats me this way, Suave. No one. Was he ever apologetic or humble. He was just like, well, this had.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Nothing to do with you.

[Unnamed Caller]

And I don't know why you're getting so upset.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Mal, you guys have a talk to them or you have.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

No, no.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Oh, wow.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Last time we talking was a heated.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Yeah, I remember. That's why I was wondering.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

You ain't gonna apologize to me. I'm Maria and all side. Nobody coaxed me. And I was like, all right, bye.

[Julieta Martinelli]

At some point, amid all of these arguments, there's a trip to Philly, and I sit there and record you two try and hash out what's been going on.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Okay, so we're down in Philly, and we're doing trips now pretty regularly at this point, checking in on him, recording, that kind of thing. And honestly, you know, things have been going okay, but they're not great. And I was really feeling again like Suave was dodging my calls. And when he did talk to me, it started to feel like it was almost like a chore. Almost like, you know, oh, Mom's calling and she's gonna scold me. And I didn't like how that felt. And so at dinner our first night, he makes a little joke. I mean, I don't really remember it anymore, but he said something like, oh, I can't tell Maria that, because she's not, you know, Mom's not gonna like it. And I was like, it kept me up all night. And the next morning, I mean, as I am with Swavi, I was just perfectly honest. How is it that I became the mother figure in your life? Because that's not what I want to be.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I don't know where you're getting at with that either.

[Maria Hinojosa]

You said it yesterday too, you were like. And then, I don't want to call. I don't want to pick up the phone because I know Maria's gonna have something to say about it, and I don't want to hear about it from her. And I'm just like, so I became a mother.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I think I got it wrong. There's really nothing to understand. I think that's the problem. You're trying to understand too much. There's nothing there to understand. I think so.

[Maria Hinojosa]

What I know is that when I'm with you and you have two phones and you are getting calls from all kinds of people because you know a lot of people now. It's not like it was six years ago when I was your main point of contact. And that is not the way it is anymore. It's for me to process. There is a friendship now different than when we did Suave Season one. Very different.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

How different you talking about? It's different. I don't see it that way.

[Julieta Martinelli]

At this point, I notice that we're kind of losing Suave. He's sunk down in his chair. He's looking away from Maria. His body language is speaking very loud. I can see your face. So I'm going to say something. Okay. You know, I can see you shutting down in this conversation, and I'm wondering if it's things like that that make you withdraw. Because I can feel like the more that Maria is asking you why you're withdrawing, I can, like, physically see you pulling away from her on your chair and, like, not making eye contact. And like, I'm wondering if that feels overbearing for you.

[Maria Hinojosa]

And I can be overbearing, by the way.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Like, I think Maria's maybe think shows love by wanting to be on top of you. Like, are you okay? Share your location? But I'm worried that for you, that's very. Like, I need separation.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I don't. I don't feel that I need to seek for help or advice from Maria all the time. I could do on my own. I can handle on my own. Serious. I don't need to share all my problems with Maria or anybody else. That's not what I do. I process and deal with that my own, whether the results are good or bad. Just how it is.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Do you think Maria can be too demanding of your friendship?

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

But I like to say that she's not a mother figure, but she come across as a mother figure sometimes. Sometimes you say that you don't want to hear they are true, but you like, oh, I want to hear this right now. Can't tell her that. So what you do? I call her later on. Because I know when I call her later on, she's probably going to be in a meeting on a Sunday and she gonna say, I can't talk to you right now. I only got five minutes. I know that. So. Yeah, but sometimes I don't want to hear that. Several times you mentioned, oh, you got other people. I don't trust other people. Can we be associates? Yeah, why not? But you're not in my trust circle. That's where it's at. My feels some way I've respected. I. I got it. I understand. I got to do better with that. I really got to do better with that because I do tend to shut down from everybody and how to.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Listening back now. What do you hear happening in that conversation, Maria?

[Maria Hinojosa]

Yeah, I mean, I think it was important for me to hear from Suave that part of what he needs to do in his life. Life is to prove to himself and everyone around him that he can do things on his own, that he's not depending on me. And I mean, we're human like everyone else. And so I think there was a part of me that was like, expecting him to depend on me, and it was okay for me to have that role in his life. But that's changed now, right? Years have passed. And even if that was hard for me to kind of accept and see, see it, you know, when I step back, it's good change. Like, it's a really good kind of change for Suave.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

People forget, man. I'm just getting out that bubble, that prison bubble that I was in for decades. And within that bubble is that that one thing a lot of people in the prison feel Fear. They forgot about me. Nobody knows me. Nobody answer my phone calls. Nobody. You know, that's something that I carry with me all the time. Like, when in reality it might not even be that way.

[Maria Hinojosa]

Yes, it's true. Suave, you and I have, over these past four years, there has been, you know, and we have been working through ego and jealousy and other people getting involved. But at the same time, I'm reading that as we're working through a friendship.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Remember back at the beginning when Suave and Maria were defining friendship?

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

When it comes to friends, I don't even know what that is because I come from a place where there is no friends.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Suave said he didn't really know what friendship meant, but there was another F word he felt like he could wrap his head around.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

What I will say is that I do have people that I carry in my heart, and I don't consider that friend. I consider them family. Right.

[Maria Hinojosa]

So. So am I your friend or am I your family? Oh, because I'm intrigued.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I mean, is that. Is that a question the producers want to know?

[Maria Hinojosa]

No, I want to know. I want to know.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I mean, what you think?

[Maria Hinojosa]

I think I'm your family.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Okay, so the obvious don't need answer though.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Whether it's friends, family, girlfriends. Suave tells me that he feels like he's finally making progress on letting people deeper into his life.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I learned how to not take shit personal. I'm learning how to be a person in relationship, how to deal with relationship, how they really are in the real world. I like conflict. And when you bring that conflict into relationship, it's dangerous because you might miss out on something that could be good for you. It's just that I choose to hold on to that trauma for safety reasons.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Would you say that you've lost the urge to run every time things get a little complicated?

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I'm tired of running. I'm tired of running. It's too costly. It's too costly. I mean, because when you run, the problem with running is that you want to run into another problem, you're not running into a solution. You run into somebody that just want to with you for a couple of weeks and, you know, whatever. Now you back with your boo and you got a problem with this here, now. Now you gotta deal with this. You know, I ain't got time for that, man. I really don't. I really don't.

[Julieta Martinelli]

And maybe, just maybe, he's ready to take a big leap.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I think I got a good life, good relationship. Lucero. What's up? When you gonna ask me to marry you, Mama?

[Julieta Martinelli]

If. If. If Lucero proposed to you, how would you feel?

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

I don't know. Gotta propose.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Luceto, comprona nija mujer.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Yeah, it could be. Listen. It could be the candy ones.

[Julieta Martinelli]

A ring pop.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

A ring pop. It could be that.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Sometimes change happens gradually and sometimes it comes at you all at once and you find yourself laughing in a tiny recording booth. That used to give you panic attacks. Asking your partner to propose with a ring pop when just months prior, that thought made you want to run. That's the thing about love and change. No one is immune to it. There's one kind of relationship we didn't talk about in this episode, though.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

Hey, Frank. What's going on, buddy? Not much.

[Julieta Martinelli]

His relationship with his brother is still in prison. People he can't or won't leave behind guys like Frank.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

There was hundreds if not thousands of people in the doc that he show how to read and write and I was one of them. You know, he always found a way from every location in the jail, he always found a way to come to me. And now he's 90 and he still had that hope that I'm fighting, I'm trying to go home.

[Julieta Martinelli]

Suave changed his own fate and now he's hoping to change it for the man who mentored and showed love to him behind bars.

[David Luis Suave Gonzalez]

He's sick, man. He's sick. He was sick.

[Julieta Martinelli]

That's next time on Suave. Suave is a production of futuristic Futuro studios to binge every episode of Suave Season 2 right now plus exclusive bonus episodes. Subscribe to Futuro Plus. The Senior Producer, Reporter and host is me, Julieta Martinelli. Our associate producer is Liliana Ruiz. We're edited by Marlon Bishop. Our production managers are Jessica Ellis and Nancy Trujillo. Our post production producer is Dan Riveros. Scoring and sound design by Stephanie Lebeau. Mixing by Stephanie Lebeau, Julia Caruso and J.J. karubin. Our fact checker is Amy Tardif. Production help from Joaquin Kotler, Juan Diego Ramirez, Nicole Rothwell, Joey Del Valle, Evelyn Fajardo Alvarez, Glori Marquez and Tasha Sandoval. Our executive producers are Marieno Rosa, Luis Suave Gonzalez, Marlon Bishop and Maria Garcia. Futura Media was founded by Maria Nojosa. Special thanks to Maggie Freeling, Audrey Quinn, Antonia Seregido, Fernandez Chabarri, Neil Rossini. Students at the I Am More program at the Community College of Philadelphia, the Abolitionist Law Center, Community Legal Services of Philadelphia and the Campaign for the Fair Sentence Blessing of Youth. Season two of Suave was made possible by the Mellon Foundation. Mellon makes grants to support divisionaries and communities that unlock the power of the arts and humanities. To help connect us all [e-mail] Season 2 of Suave was made possible in part by Public Welfare foundation catalyzing transformative approaches to justice that are community led, restorative and racially. Just.

[Maria Hinojosa]

From PRX.