Sub Club Podcast Summary

Episode: Pivots, Funding, and Building Apps That Last

Guest: Greg Cohn (Co-founder and CEO, Ad Hoc Labs, makers of Burner)
Host: David Barnard
Co-Host: Jacob Eiting
Date: December 10, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Greg Cohn, co-founder and CEO of Ad Hoc Labs (maker of Burner), joins David Barnard for a candid discussion about the realities of building and growing a consumer app business. The conversation traces the origins of Burner, lessons from early pivots, the intricacies of funding decisions, sustainable growth strategies, ethical business considerations, and the evolving approach to product and revenue expansion through subscriptions and bundling. Cohn’s insights emphasize authenticity, durability, and long-term thinking over flash-in-the-pan wins, offering invaluable lessons for app founders at any stage.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Origin Story and Early Pivot of Burner ([01:50]–[14:01])

• Initial Concept: The team started with Wrangle, a social calling app inspired by the “worst app on the phone” experience and new capabilities exposed by Twilio APIs ([01:50]).

• Network Effects & Failure to Launch: The social app faced the “empty restaurant problem”—it couldn’t bootstrap a network, receiving polite but indirect feedback from early testers ([03:50], [04:30]).

• The Burner Pivot:

  • As a workaround, the team built a “burner” phone number feature to post disposable numbers online, which finally elicited “I want this” reactions ([04:37]).
  • This feature became the standalone Burner app, solving authentic privacy and control problems ([05:25]).

“Instead of saying, ‘My sister would use this,’ they would say, ‘Oh, I want this.’ That became the feature we built into Burner.”
— Greg Cohn, [04:37]

• Lesson:
  • True product-market fit comes with strong user pull. If you’re always pushing, it may be time to pivot.
  • Leveraging new technology can open doors, but only if it solves a real need ([06:39]).

2. Deciding When to Pivot: Distribution vs Product Problem ([06:51]–[13:46])

• Distribution or Product?
  • Assess retention and whether the app actually solves a problem ([11:09]).
  • Lack of market pull with Wrangle forced a pivot; the Burner feature had strong, organic pull, rapidly validated at South by Southwest with press and enthusiastic test users ([12:38], [13:30]).

“The learning with Wrangle ultimately was it didn’t solve a real problem.”
— Greg Cohn, [11:30]

3. Funding Realities: Raising Money for Consumer Apps ([15:42]–[26:25])

• Initial Funding:

  • Early commitments came at SXSW, but Burner’s launch was bootstrapped, influencing the paid download pricing model ([15:42], [16:28]).
  • The need for pricing discipline: Burner’s initial $1.99 download was set to ensure costs were covered ([16:34]).

• Transition to Free and Beyond:

  • After proof of traction (~$50,000 revenue on day one), shifting to a free download and later to subscriptions ([18:21]).

• Consumer VC Wisdom:

  • Most consumer apps, especially indie or small team projects, shouldn’t raise VC—VC scale math is not compatible with most app business trajectories ([22:28]).

“I would posit that most apps, and especially most consumer apps…shouldn’t raise VC. They don’t need to.”
— Greg Cohn, [22:28]

• Choosing Funding Sources:
  • Friends, family, and “fools” are better for early funding ([26:25]).
  • Angels or programs like Y Combinator for pre-VC validation; don’t take institutional money if you can avoid it.

“If you just need a little bit of money, you should not even be thinking about institutional capital.”
— Greg Cohn, [27:12]

4. Growth, Sustainability, and Long-Term Thinking ([28:21]–[38:04])

• VC Path vs Self-Sustaining Growth:

  • Greg explains transitioning from a big-vision VC trajectory to steady, profitable growth after failing to hit hypergrowth metrics ([28:44], [31:48]).
  • Profitability came early, with $1M in revenue within 2.5 years, $5M in 5 years, and continued growth since ([31:58]).

• Advice for Founders:

  • If the business isn’t “venture-scale” (hundreds of millions), focus on building an authentic, durable company—even if growth comes slower ([32:26]).
  • If you’ve found real user pull, keep building and keep exploring.

5. Subscription Models, Credits, and Revenue Optimization ([34:41]–[41:44])

• Evolution of Monetization:

  • Burner shifted from credit (consumable) purchases to strong subscription revenue (~90% now). Credits are mainly used for subscriber top-ups ([35:24]).
  • Subscriptions unlocked real growth, especially with unlimited “all you can eat” offers ([39:10]).

• Flexible Monetization:

  • Revisiting opportunity for non-subscribers and add-ons; an ongoing test and iteration process ([41:44]).

• Retention and Revenue:

  • Cohort behavior, targeting “locals” (long-term value users) vs “tourists” (short-term, high-churn users) ([59:41]).
  • LTV of cohorts is the key North Star in optimization ([57:43], [59:46]).

6. Ethics and Building for the Long-Term ([43:07]–[51:46])

• Ethics in Growth and Marketing:
  • Actively avoided capitalizing on “scammy” hack angles (e.g., Uber referral abuse), focusing instead on authentic needs and brand integrity ([43:43]).

“We didn’t want to promote… get burner and go game Uber’s referral credits… The authentic thing burner solves is giving people control over their number, not helping them hack the system.”
— Greg Cohn, [45:00]

• Brand and Category Leadership:
  • Building for durability and reputation, not short-term hits ([50:08], [50:30]).

7. Experimentation, Analytics, and Paywall Testing ([52:10]–[57:43])

• Data-Driven Growth:
  • Analytics, cohort tracking, and rapid experimentation were central from day one ([52:10]).
  • Paywall experience remains a high-value lever for conversion and retention ([53:59], [54:18]).
  • A recent experiment making free trials optional (rather than default) outperformed previous setups ([63:41]).

“Making the free trial optional instead of default—that was a very positive test for us.”
— Greg Cohn, [63:41]

8. Product Expansion: Bundling, Multisolution, and Acquisitions ([65:16]–[80:47])

• Multi-Product Direction:
  • After failed attempts to launch satellite apps, Burner focused on adding features like VPN directly into the core app (buy/build/partner) for meaningful user synergy ([68:45], [69:49]).
  • Considering acquisitions to speed up product expansion, looking for “multi-solution” fits rather than disparate app farms ([73:23], [78:30]).

“I wouldn’t want to own ten one million dollar apps… there’s not that much leverage… Multiple multi-million dollar apps that are complimentary, now there’s leverage.”
— Greg Cohn, [78:30]

9. Lightning Round: Wins, Fails, and Lessons ([82:51]–[88:22])

• Biggest Fail:

  • Building things too expensively and investing too much in features/partners before validating impact ([82:51], [83:36]).

• Biggest Win:

  • Increasing paywall test velocity, shifting experimentation from engineering to product/analytics, leading to more rapid optimization and learning ([85:32]).

• Growth Would Be Easier IF:

  • “…if users would stick around longer, especially those tourists. If I were advising someone, I’d say don’t start with a product that’s inherently temporary.”
    — Greg Cohn, [87:02]

10. Final Advice & Opportunities

• For Founders:

  • Focus on building real products that solve pain points.
  • Take the high road on growth—you build a company worth owning.
  • Consider alternatives to VC unless you’re truly a venture-scale outlier.

• Open Call:

  • Greg’s open to connecting with founders, hiring for product/analytics/engineering, and is seeking acquisition opportunities complementary to Burner’s brand/audience ([88:22]).

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “You can’t just sit around and product your way to glory. You have to find a way to break out, get attention, do things. From early on, we had many opportunities to take a high road or a low road.”
  — Greg Cohn, [49:08]

• “Write a good book. Start there.” (On product before distribution or funding.)
  — Greg Cohn, [51:29]

• “If you have something, build it. If you don’t have anything, who wants to buy it?”
  — Greg Cohn, [32:26]

• “Cohort LTV is probably the true north. But you can’t wait for those metrics to mature, so you have to project based on things happening at day eight or day 30.”
  — Greg Cohn, [57:43]

• “I would posit most consumer apps shouldn’t raise VC.”
  — Greg Cohn, [22:28]

• “Making the free trial optional instead of default—that was a very positive test for us.”
  — Greg Cohn, [63:41]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Origin & Early Pivot – [01:50] to [14:01]
• Funding and Pricing Decisions – [15:42] to [26:25]
• Growth Strategy and Profitability – [28:21] to [38:04]
• Subscription & Monetization – [34:41] to [41:44]
• Brand, Ethics & Scaling – [43:07] to [51:46]
• Experimentation, Analytics & Testing – [52:10] to [57:43]
• Product Expansion & Acquisitions – [65:16] to [80:47]
• Lightning Round – [82:51] to [88:22]

Tone & Style

Cohn’s style is pragmatic, candid, and rooted in hard-won lessons from a decade-plus of operating a consumer app business. The conversation is thoughtful yet accessible, with real-world, data-driven anecdotes balanced by actionable advice and an undercurrent of founder empathy.

Who Should Listen / Read

• App founders & indie makers weighing pivots, funding, and monetization models
• Product leaders exploring retention, segmentation, and subscription economics
• Anyone interested in the realities of building a durable, ethical app business in a crowded market

Further Information

• Burner: https://www.burnerapp.com
• Ad Hoc Labs: https://www.adhoclabs.co
• RevenueCat Sub Club: https://subclub.com

Greg’s “burner” number is shared in the show notes for networking/recruiting opportunities.