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Episode: The Advantages of Working On an App You Care About — Christian Selig, Apollo

Hosts: David Barnard, Jacob Eiting
Guest: Christian Selig (Apollo, Pixel Pals, Juno)
Date: September 18, 2024

Overview

This episode dives deep into Christian Selig’s journey as an indie developer—most notably as the creator of the much-loved Apollo app for Reddit. The conversation explores the advantages of working on projects you’re personally passionate about, how Christian handled user feedback and managed chaos, why rigid process frameworks aren’t always helpful, and what happens when outside forces pull the rug from under your business. It’s an honest, funny, and insightful discussion about building apps, balancing personal fulfillment and commercial success, and finding your own path in tech—whether you’re indie or venture-backed.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Christian’s Indie Journey and Origins of Apollo

• Early career: Christian interned at Apple, which inspired him to build something of his own.
  • “After that, I kind of got that fire in your belly that you often do when you work somewhere really cool. And I was like, okay, I want to build something.” (03:38)
• Tried other side apps (“Syllable,” a speed-reading app) before Apollo, learning from each.
• Chose Reddit as a platform due to its popularity and his own interest, finding a gap after “Alien Blue” for a truly iOS-first experience.

2. Building Without a Blueprint: Embracing Chaos

• Christian lacked formal development frameworks or big company process experience when building Apollo.
  • “It was like, I need to get to California from New York, and I know, like, it’s west. And that was, that was pretty much like as far organized as I was.” (05:54)
• Development was organic: lots of feature creep, heavy user beta feedback, following personal intuition.
• Subreddit community became a key venue for feedback and innovation; tight feedback loops shaped Apollo.
  • “The feedback people gave over the years really shaped it into something that I think became more than just, like, my ideal of what a Reddit client was.” (06:11)

3. Passion, Personal Risk, and the Luxury of Time

• Christian’s ability to go indie was greatly influenced by his low personal expenses and financial runway from his Apple internship.
  • “Your personal burn rate is probably like your number one, can be your number one hindrance to risk taking.” (08:36, Jacob Eiting)
• The path he followed isn’t fully transferable—being young, having runway, and few obligations made all the difference.

4. Intensity and the Myth of Balance

• Indie success stories (like Apollo) usually involve an unsustainable period of intense work and focus.
  • “You slowly like don’t have like work hours anymore… Those few hours a night, someone might recharge…you’re like still just plugging away.” (10:32)
• Hosts push back gently on the myth of sustainable, balanced small wins—meaningful products often require personal obsession at some stage.
  • “Most great outcomes came through at least some period of intense investment.” (11:06, Jacob Eiting)

5. Monetization Realities

• Apollo originally launched as a $2.99 (sometimes $1.99) paid app, with early commercial success due to pent-up demand.
• Later added subscriptions and lifetime options—Christian regretted underpricing the lifetime tier.
  • “I upped my price and the take rate didn’t change. You’re like, shit.” (26:26)
• The economics only worked thanks to his low overheads and direct community engagement.

6. Process, Frameworks & Cargo Culting

• The team critiques the tendency to fetishize frameworks, founder stories, or cargo cult business logic.
  • “There’s a desire to over systematize a lot of these things, which should just be like, organic and sort of, like, artistic.” (14:22, Jacob)
  • “You always see those old guy billionaires writing the books and like, here’s how you do what I did. I don’t know if those steps are inherently repeatable.” (15:13, Christian)
• Each project—and person—needs a different approach. Sometimes process is key, sometimes following user pull or personal obsession is the only path.

7. The Centrality of Care: Why Motivation Matters

• Personal investment—caring deeply about using and improving your own product—was a sustaining force for Christian.
  • “If the financial aspect is the only thing motivating you, like, I don’t know how sustainable long term, that is. Like I feel like you’d burn out pretty quickly.” (19:18)
• For side project devs, fulfillment—not just big exits—can be reason enough to keep going (Weather Up example, 18:13–19:18).

8. Listening (But Not Obeying) Users

• Apollo’s thriving subreddit community not only shaped the app, but served as a “North Star.”
• Christian learned to balance feedback: explain why requests might not work, stay editorial.
  • “As the founder of the creator, you have a lot more, you know, marbles than everyone else does.” (30:26)

9. The Harsh End of Apollo and Developer Platform Risks

• Reddit’s sudden, steep API pricing made continuing Apollo impossible; the rushed timeline left no hope of adapting or even recouping.
  • “They basically gave 30 days … to when you would start incurring fees. And in Apollo’s case, it was in the realm of, like, $20 million a year, which was, like, far beyond anything Apollo was making.” (42:26)
• Christian has no regrets: the "nine seasons" metaphor—he’s grateful for the run.
  • “It was a great run. I had a ton of fun… It was such a good run that it’s hard to only look at the suck.” (38:46, 40:43)

10. Life After Apollo: Juno, Pixel Pals, and Following Fun

• Quickly built Juno (a YouTube app for Apple Vision Pro) when saw the opportunity, despite “making no sense” financially—just for the fun and satisfaction.
  • “I would say most of my ideas don’t come from a place of logic inherently.” (49:25)
• Pixel Pals (widget pets): Crossing into games, working with real pixel artists, finding joy in new creative challenges even when less lucrative than expected.

11. Coding Solo, Embracing Technical Debt

• Christian (like many indie devs) codes almost entirely solo; messy code is freedom, not vice.
  • “There are some files in Apollo that were like, I’m sure broke the Geneva Convention in terms of what you were allowed to be doing.” (56:43)
• Jacob: “It’s only debt if it prevents you from doing something in the future. Otherwise it’s just free money.” (56:51)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Overthinking Business Advice:
  • “You read the book and you’re like, dang, I can do this too. And it’s like, it scares me so much when someone asks for advice to kind of accidentally go down that path where you’re like, this worked for me in this hyper specific case…” (15:35, Christian Selig)
• On Motivation:
  • “If I release this and I’m the only one who likes it, like, in some cases, that’s good enough for me.” (16:45, Christian Selig)
• On Burnout and Fulfillment:
  • “I was using the shit out of it. So it was like this was something…” (13:16, Christian Selig)
  • “I don’t think I would have made it to the end anywhere close if that was the case, because I was using the shit out of it.” (13:16)
• On Responding to User Feedback:
  • “As the founder of the creator, you have a lot more, you know, marbles than everyone else does.” (30:26)
• On Apollo’s Ending:
  • “It was a great run. I had a ton of time, ton of fun doing it. ... I got to build something so cool that influenced so many people.” (38:46)
• On Starting Projects Without Logic:
  • “I would say most of my ideas don’t come from a place of logic inherently.” (49:25)
• On the Indie Dev Myth:
  • “We make it seem like we’re like wizards over here or something…It’s really not. You don’t need a lot of processes. You just need a good idea and, like, kind of the conviction to want to see it come to fruition.” (60:50, Christian Selig)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Early background & Apple internship: 02:38–04:11
• Finding and shaping Apollo with user feedback: 06:11–07:17
• Monetization and economics of Apollo: 07:33–08:24, 25:22–27:27
• Intensity, balance, and the myth of indie overnight success: 10:18–11:50
• 'Cargo culting,' frameworks, and the myth of repeatability: 14:22–16:02
• Users, community shaping product direction: 26:44–27:27
• Explaining Apollo’s shutdown & why it couldn’t be saved: 42:26–43:47
• Life after Apollo: Juno and Pixel Pals: 48:54–55:07
• Indie code, technical debt, and working alone: 56:01–58:34
• Reflection on process, barriers, and demystifying indie success: 60:50–61:29

Flow & Tone

The conversation is informal, fast-paced, self-deprecating, and sprinkled with humor about the perils and joys of indie development. The hosts and Christian freely riff on business lore, poke fun at startup clichés, and tell stories in a way that's relatable and candid, while offering genuinely valuable lessons for entrepreneurs and indie hackers.

Takeaways for Aspiring App Builders

• You don’t need a perfect process—start with what you care about.
• Talk to your users (but don’t do everything they ask).
• Lower your personal burn rate to maximize what you can risk.
• Don’t blindly copy someone else’s playbook—find the path that suits your life, ambition, and passion.
• The pain of abrupt endings is real, but building something people love (even for a while) is its own reward.
• Passion and fulfillment build resilience you won’t get from chasing trends for cash alone.

Where to Find Christian

• X (Twitter) & YouTube: @ChristianSelig
• Projects: Juno (Vision Pro), Pixel Pals
• Noted enthusiast for pixel art, indie development, and mechanical keyboards.

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