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Success Story with Scott D. Clary
Anna Runkle - The Crappy Childhood Fairy (1M+ Subscribers) | The Hidden Truth About Childhood PTSD
01:10:35
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- [00:00]
Anna Runkle
I was feeling very, very disconnected in my life. I was lost. I thought I had a lot of friends, but when the chips were down, I didn't. For me, and for a lot of people, not feeling a chronic sense of disconnection is a trauma symptom.
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Podcast Host
Today's episode features someone who turned disruption into her calling. Anna Runkle is a visionary strategist whose leadership has reshaped the landscape in insert her field, education, wellness, slash innovation.
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Anna Runkle
People who grew up with trauma when they were very young. Like, abuse is bad, but neglect is worse. It's going to lead to a life that's empty emotionally and relationship. So much of our personal growth depends on being able to interact with other people. And what happens if that's stressful? We go into hiding. We were told that if we would go talk about it enough, we would feel better. But I was one of the people, and I'm not alone. And I don't speak for everybody. Am I some kind of a freak because I'm going to the therapist and I just feel terrible?
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Podcast Host
She doesn't follow trends, she sets them. From building initiatives that uplift communities to driving change in how we think about impact and purpose. Her work isn't just about success. It's about significance. This is Anna Runkle.
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Anna Runkle
Once I had that experience of so quick popping out of it when I had better tools to deal with the thoughts and the feelings without talking about them, writing about them, and then following it with meditation, it worked like a charm. Don't give up. Do not get discouraged, because this is hard.
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Podcast Host
Anna, I'm super happy that you're here today just to kick things off so that everybody's on the same page. Help me define connectability.
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Anna Runkle
It's a word that I made up when I was feeling very, very disconnected in my life. I was lost. I had just realized I didn't really have people who were there for me. I thought I had a lot of friends, but when the chips were down, I didn't. And I thought to myself, some people have this thing, and I just. My word for it was connectability. They have this air about them that they find people easy, they're easy to be around. People like to have them as friends, and they easily get into a conversation where they hear the real point and people feel heard. And all this stuff used to feel very elusive to me until I taught myself how to do it.
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Podcast Host
Why do you think? I mean, this is obviously something I think a lot of people feel and deal with. I mean, you wrote this whole book about connectability. I Think that. And you study this for a living. So tell me if my. If my uneducated guess is correct, but it feels like it's just gotten worse since COVID and it just keeps getting worse and worse, and people feel increasingly isolated. So what's going on just in terms of what's happening since COVID but also just happening socially, culturally, when people feel like they lack connectability, like what was happening with you?
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Anna Runkle
There's two layers that I'll talk about here, and one of them is what happened during COVID which made everything worse. And I think everybody sensed that. There are those few people who are like, I loved COVID Lockdown was my dream. I didn't have to deal with anybody. I wasn't one of those people. But a lot of people, whatever was odd about them, whatever they struggled with, got strugglier, you know, by the time those years were up. So for me, and for a lot of people, not feeling a chronic sense of disconnection is a trauma symptom. Now, it's not the only way you get to feel that way. For some people, it's baked into their personality. They're introverted, they're on the autism spectrum. They just are socially awkward. That's not uncommon. But people who grew up with trauma when they were very young, especially neglect, like abuse is bad, but neglect is worse. There's some kind of neurological development that maybe got disrupted through that neglect, through not having that interaction with their parents as much as a baby needs. And we walk around life feeling just like there's a membrane around us. Like somehow everybody got the memo on and there's some sort of. I've heard somebody describe it as the wi fi, where everybody's kind of talking this non verbal language and they understand each other and just feeling like a little bit like I don't know what's going on. I easily put my foot in my mouth. It's harder for me to feel close to people. I feel like I have to hide who I am. So that's the kind of disconnection. And when I started my work as crappy childhood fairy, which I backed into over years of just being somebody who taught people my techniques for healing trauma symptoms. When I got online and started, you know, hearing from thousands of people through their letters and their YouTube comments, I realized anecdotally, I'm not a researcher formally, but I have this huge sample that talks to me about what it's like to have this problem. They all said, me too. I feel really disconnected. And so I do find that it's a nearly universal symptom, a feeling of disconnection. I see three ones, three things. Neurological dysregulation, disconnection and self defeating behavior. Like, those are the three things that really need healing when you're walking around like the walking wounded from a bad childhood.
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Podcast Host
So this all stems from early childhood. Does it all stem from early childhood trauma?
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Anna Runkle
No. I mean, we all know people, everybody struggles with this a little bit. But early childhood trauma, it just has a unique opportunity to alter your nervous system development. And so if you had a perfectly normal childhood and then you went through a lot of trauma as an adult, sure it would affect you and it might make you feel alienated from people, but when it happens in childhood, you're actually in development. Your nervous system is forming itself. And just as a little example, I'm not a neurologist, but most of us have heard of mirror neurons. They're these neurons that develop and wire up because you're getting interaction from your mom or dad. And so literally neglect can cause these neurological deficits or disruptions. And I don't think we ever get a perfectly good lens on that. We don't have the technology to do it, but we know it's true and you can sense it in yourself. And it's helpful to just assume. I assume I'm neuro, I have neuroplasticity on this one. I'm going to work on it. And most things can be improved. And who even knows what your perfect condition would have been? It's a hypothetical, you know, how connected would you have been if your life had been different? Who knows? People are different. But for traumatized people, this has been an invisible symptom all along. You know, people really focus on other things that are quite obvious to others, like depression, anxiety, terrible relationships, that kind of thing.
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Podcast Host
But, but it's just like this is very sort of quiet humming in the background of your life and you don't quite know and put it, and you can't put a finger on exactly what's wrong, but you feel like something's off because you see in others they're optimized to a degree compared to your baseline.
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Anna Runkle
Yeah. And the way they relate to others in their family and the way they can just participate in groups, you just think, how do they even do that? Like it takes this tremendous effort.
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Podcast Host
And what's the toll? What's the toll of this?
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Anna Runkle
It's terrible. It couldn't be worse. It leads to, you know, if a person can't learn to connect with other People, it's going to lead to a life that's empty emotionally and relationally. I mean, that's so much of our personal growth depends on being able to interact with other people. And what happens if that's stressful for a person? We go into hiding. We use isolation as a way to manage our own symptoms. And I can't really talk about this without defining dysregulation. The nervous system becomes dysregulated. Everybody gets dysregulated. Sometimes it's when you feel discombobulated or out of sorts, or you wake up on the wrong side of the bed, a little newborn baby cries and you know, is inconsolable. And then finally, through, you know, love holding, feeding, the baby calms down and becomes alert again. That's re regulation. So we all know how to do it. Virtually everybody can do it. But people who were traumatized are dysregulated more of the time. They, they struggle to get re regulated and it happens so easily. And the only part of dysregulation that's obvious to other people is the emotional part of it where we lash out or have a panic attack or be romantically impulsive or something. It's too much emotion. But that' just one little piece of the disregulation pie. There's so much else going on there. There's disruption of hormones and an immune system and blood flow and learning and cognition and memory. And so people who were traumatized as kids have this way out of proportion probability of having almost every chronic health condition there is. Heart disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity, reproductive disorders, dementia. The list is very, very broad. And it's hard to think of anything that isn't exacerbated by early trauma. So not everybody who has cancer had early trauma. But your risk goes way up. If you were traumatized as a kid.
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Podcast Host
The solving, I mean, like now, this sort of like puts your bodies of work in perspective. So this is why the solving of your dysregulation is a prerequisite. It's required. If you understand that you cannot be connected to people, if you understand that something's off. Okay, we gotta go to the root cause first. And I'm curious if you see just in terms of people that, you know, consume your content and reach out to you, do you see a lot of people seeking out help, finding band aid solutions as opposed to dealing with the root cause?
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Anna Runkle
Yeah, you know, some of them are obvious band aids. There's different things for different people. Like the big thing about me that made it necessary for me to figure out what was going on is. Therapy didn't work for me. Talk therapy made me very dysregulated, and that's not uncommon.
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Podcast Host
It made it worse.
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Anna Runkle
That made it worse. So I would go to try to talk about problems in my life. And it seemed like therapists were always very interested to hear how hard my childhood was. It was, you know, it's like catnip for therapists when they hear. It's like, you know, my mother was a drug addict and an alcoholic, and she left me outside a casino in the snow. And you could talk about this your whole life. And I'm glad I got a chance to tell what happened and to get validated. But talking about that stuff would always just make me feel very dysregulated. I couldn't focus, couldn't feel my hand. I would just feel really shaky and forget where I was or who I was talking to. Not like unconscious, but just very spaced out. And it turns out that's really normal. And in the past, I don't know, 10 years, finally, they're starting to recognize that. But not the whole. Not everybody. But there are some therapists who are. They're working with dysregulation first. Nobody can really process information unless they're regulated. It. It accounts for a lot of difficulties in school too, of course. And everybody knows the kids who had a rough home life, they struggle in school. But this is a lot. Why the left front cortex will start to go dim under stress. Like, let's say you're taking a math test or something. Left front cortex, where reasoning is, starts to work less well. It's. It goes dim on a. On a scan, the right front cortex, which is emotion, starts lighting up. So it's like panic, panic, can't think, can't think. And then it. It registers as an inability to learn. There may not be an inability to learn. There's just dysregulation between, you know, the person and what they're trying to learn. And if you can learn to re regulate, that's the only real level playing field I've ever found in my life is people who can re regulate when you.
- [11:25]
Podcast Host
So I guess, you know, I. I love people that think you can apply sort of entrepreneurship ideology to everything. Right? Like you have a problem. Before we press record, we're talking about how entrepreneurs have a high level of agency and they want to solve their own problems. And I think this is actually the perfect example of what you did because you realized, okay, the de facto sort of playbook for making me feel correct. However you define that, it's not working. The therapy that's supposed to be helping is making me feel worse. Obviously something isn't working out here, so let me figure out how to actually solve it. Which is how you sort of started to understand about regulation and deregulation. I'm curious, for somebody who's in your position when you were first starting therapy, who's going through all these same things that you were going through, is experiencing all the same things that you are, what was that first step towards regulation that you took that was actually helpful?
- [12:16]
Anna Runkle
Well, I wish I could claim it was like I. I decided to do it. I. I was really like it. The. Like I was in therapy three times a week and things came to a head when I was attacked on the street once randomly. I got just beat up by a gang and they broke my jaw and my teeth and I was unconscious. I had a concussion and it triggered a lot of. It triggered ptsd. And in the hospital and later when I talked to the doctor, they never said the word ptsd. They just said, oh, are you, you know, you're upset. You should go talk to a therapist about this. Well, I was already in therap. I live in California. There's a pot of money for victims of violent crime to go to therapy. So I had this big pot of money and I started going three times a week as recommended. And every session we would sit and talk about this assault. And there were other things going on. My mother died during this period too. There was just stuff going on. And so I was sort of weakened. I was in a bad place already, but I could not put my thoughts together once I had, you know. Was it the brain injury? I don't think it was a official brain injury, but it was a post concussion. You know, it's something. But getting attacked randomly on the street is a trauma where, you know, it messes you up. And my work wouldn't give me time off work. I had to go to work. And I was saying incredibly inappropriate things and I would burst into tears all the time. And I felt desperate for people to talk to me and like, help me through this. But I was being very annoying, I think is what people said. And they couldn't really deal with it. I was constantly asking for help, but I was very much like I had been raised with this. Not raised, but through therapy, I had this idea, I should be talk about this. People should listen to me. This will help me. Never knowing that that's like the worst thing a person with my. With complex ptsd, that's like the worst thing is going and talking about what just happened. There's a lot of things you can do, like with movement, there are some treatments, like emdr, somatic therapies. There are a variety of things. It just happened that right when I thought I couldn't go on, I mean, I was so dysfunctional and I had alienated everybody and I was about to get fired for saying something inappropriate that I couldn't. You know, I only knew by looking at people's face, and I'm just like, nice girl, you know what? This was so out of character for me. But they did not know what was wrong. And what it was was classic signs of PTSD from childhood brought on and led out of the bag by an adult onset trauma. Like, it's a really known pattern now, but it wasn't then. And I might have d. I did not feel like I could keep going with the problems that I had. And then magically, this somebody. I was in some improv group at the time, and this woman said, I happened to confide in her how bad I was feeling. And she said, ah, do you want to come in and try this technique that I learned? And she had been a homeless person in the Tenderloin district of San Francisco in her teens, and she had sobered up and went to aa. I'm not an alcoholic. But she had had this marvelous recovery. And she was so miserable, though, even when she stopped drinking, she was unhappy. And so somebody in aa, a woman there named Sylvia walked, told her, do you want to try these techniques? And what it was, is and is for me, I've still done it. I do it twice a day still. It's a specific technique to write fearful and resentful thoughts and feelings. Whatever's up, you know, whatever's bothering you. And because I learned it from somebody who had learned it in a 12 step context. Now, mind you, most people in 12 step don't do this. It's. It's considered sort of arcane or too much or, you know, some people look down on it even. But damn if it didn't save my life. What? She showed me how to do this writing. Then she said, now you gotta go learn meditation, because if you're doing this, you're not gonna be able to sustain it unless you're able to go into deep rest afterwards. Each time she said, do it twice a day. Call me when you like. You can read me what you wrote. You can get help from me if you want advice, but I was 30 at this time. She was 23. And she was like this street kid covered with tattoos. She's not. She's a. She's a beautiful woman, you know, But I still know her. It's a long time ago, but I was. I couldn't believe I was taking, like, life and death advice from this person. She said the F word, every other word. And then she was talking about God. And I was like this Berkeley girl who was like, people who talk about God are stupid. I don't know. But I. She just had credibility with me. She knew about the life and death moments. And so I did what she said. And like, that night, I started to feel relief. And within two weeks, I really. If I can diagnose myself as having ptsd, I'll diagnose myself as having completely popped out of it. And I was able to focus my mind better than ever before. So I had a job at this nonprofit. I was the marketing person at the time. And once I had this head injury, I had a terrible time focusing. I probably wasn't a one at it before that either, but I really. I could not sit in a business meeting and really track what was happening. My mind was just all over the place. When I started using these techniques, I would sit in a business meeting, and I would hear every single thing that was said. And so my career rocketed forward because I would listen to the whole hour, and at the end, I would say, well, I'll tell you what I think. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was able to synthesize what I just heard, and I realized that very few people can do that. Almost everybody's mind was popping around like popcorn. And, you know, the. I found it very annoying. Once you're. Once you're able to really track with attention, the way that people talk can be very frustrating. They're all over the place. Somebody goes off in an anecdote, you're like, wait, we were just about to, like, name that next bullet point. What is it? Or they're making some chart on the. This used to drive me crazy when people are on the flip chart, you know, being like, let's talk about stuff. But it's like, they're not matching things. They're talking about, like, a phenomenon, a person, an idea. And my mind was so organized that I was just like, no, no, no. It's like. So then I'd rewrite it, and then I'd show it to people, and they would be like, oh, my God, she's like a genius now. Yeah, I just. I could Pay attention.
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Podcast Host
You know what?
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Anna Runkle
I've, I.
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Podcast Host
Okay, so when you're saying this, I have, I have a thesis and you can tell me if I'm, I'm right or wrong. So a couple ideas. First, I have heard that truly, truly traumatic experiences, like early childhood experiences, they get implanted into your subconscious and they're always like running in the background. And this is why it causes so many other problems in your life, because it's almost like a broken operating system impacts everything. And this is what you're mentioning about all these potential health issues and cognitive issues and memory issues. Now that's something that somebody can pinpoint as wrong. Or at least they feel like their life is completely deregulated. And that could be right or wrong. I don't know. I'm just spouting from somebody else that I've heard. Now I think most adults, they don't, maybe not all of them have true trauma, but they are deregulated to the point where their thoughts aren't clear, as clear as they could be. Like to your point, like in those meetings, they don't see anything is super wrong because nothing really happened. But they've never put the work into organizing their thoughts or clarifying how they think. And then they can't communicate or they can't reiterate what that hour long meeting was about, or they speak in circles, or they're not so off base, but you can tell they're not a hundred percent there. So there's like levels to this. Now I think what happened with you is that traumatic experience. It was like pouring fuel on the fire to the point where you're like, okay, something is definitely wrong. Like I, I'm aware that something's wrong. I can't even function anymore. Not just function poorly. I can't function at all. So this was, you know, it was a horrible event, but it was kind of like the silver lining was, okay, now I got to do the work to get myself back on track. And I think that a lot of people just meander through life without having this traumatic event that forces them to do the work, to get back on track. So they actually live in these sort of subpar, suboptimal conditions cognitively because there isn't any work done towards reorganizing their, or fixing the way they think and the way they sort of, sort of just meander through life. I don't know if any of this is correct, but this is just my takeaway from just listening to how, how your life has played out.
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Anna Runkle
Yeah, I, I probably Use different words for some of it. But yeah, it's like that.
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Podcast Host
Yeah, that's so most people don't even realize that they're not. That they're deregulated.
- [20:44]
Anna Runkle
Well, yeah, it's dysregulated. Deregulation is what we want to happen in California is like the. It's the, you know, disruption of normal fl. Flow of nervous system operations. And your nervous system governs everything in your body. Your thinking, your digestion, your hormones, what age you go into puberty, and to a large degree, how you think. I do think there is something inside of ourselves that's beyond the scope of the nervous system. But I couldn't define it that clearly. I just sense that there's more to it. It governs just virtually everything. And so when it's not working properly, literally, your blood can't get. This is. I had a. When I was going through a very traumatic period, I had a surgery and it just failed. And they did another surgery to fix it, and it failed even worse. And soon I had 14 surgeries. And later we were able to sort of diagnose backwards. I was going through a lot of trauma. My circulatory system couldn't adequately carry blood and oxygen to the damaged tissue. So whatever they fixed wouldn't heal and it would just fall apart. Like, that's how much the presence of those. That's whatever the substance of trauma is, is affecting body functioning. But people disagree about what is the substance of trauma. I think some of the way people talk about it is metaphorical. They think it's literal. But when they say trauma is carried in the body, I sort of question that a little bit. Is that literal or metaphorical? I know what they mean.
- [22:14]
Podcast Host
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- [25:12]
Anna Runkle
Well, I think, you know, just a first semantics. I think of trauma as what happened and dysregulation is the thing that's happening in you right now that you have some control over. You can't do anything about the trauma.
- [25:23]
Podcast Host
So when you. When you go through these exercises, is this a. I guess, to just frame it for the audience? Is it something that you have to do once, or is this, like, a constant practice?
- [25:33]
Anna Runkle
Well, I think it's kind of like brushing your teeth. It helps to do it once, but it's better to do it twice a day. People will say, well, I'm having a good day. And it's like, well, are you having a good enough day that you're not going to brush your teeth today? Like, just do it. Just be. Be consistent and be steady. It's like training. I. I didn't think of it like, this way. You know, the science of dysregulation did not come out until I was 20 years into using the daily practice simply to feel better and function better. Then the science came out, and I was like, wow, now I know what it is that we're. We're dealing with here and why this works. And that's the last. You know, it's like 12 years or something since I learned that. And it's just been, like, the greatest thing in my life to find out. It's a thing. It has a name. It's normal. It happens to a lot of people. And going out on YouTube to talk about what it's like has been this great experience where thousands of people go, I have that, too. I've never heard anybody describe it before. And so I get to witness all these people having that moment. Like, you're kidding. It's a thing. I thought I was crazy.
- [26:35]
Podcast Host
Well, yeah, because you can put a finger on it now. Now it's something that's actually fixable or at least treatable. Right. That's what. That's what stresses people out when they feel a certain way and they can't put a finger on it. That's what's horrifying.
- [26:47]
Anna Runkle
Well, yeah, and we were told that if we would go talk about it enough, we would feel better. But I was one of the people, and I'm not alone, and I don't speak for everybody, but a lot of us were like, am I some kind of a freak? Because I'm going to the therapist and I just feel terrible. And that's a really scary feeling when you think, well, then this must be the last house on the block. I'm out of options. I'm getting worse. I must be really damaged. And so it was just, you know, once I had that experience of so quickly popping out of it, when I had better tools to deal with the thoughts and the feelings without talking about them, writing about them, and then following it with meditation. It just. It worked like a charm. And it's so simple. That's the hardest thing. When I've taught, like, a million people now how to do it. And sometimes that's the hardest hurdle for them to grasp. But it's like, no, really, it's this simple. And I'm not saying it will solve all life problems, but it puts you in a place where you can solve life problems. You start to. What. What the benefits of having a clear mind are, is you start to have discernment. You go, well, this is interesting. When I talk in this manner, people get very offended. Why don't I ask them a question like, did that offend you? And then you have information and you can use it. You start to, you know, suddenly the world is your oyster. You can figure things out. And it used to just be this, like, tumble, this big, like, beaver dam of mess. Who even knows why people feel the way they feel? I better go hide. And so it becomes solvable. And so I'm always encouraging people, like, use the daily practice to keep rinsing off your stress about trying new things and making your life a little bigger every day. And then live your life and bump into the wall, make some mistakes.
- [28:25]
Podcast Host
Are there daily practices or habits or even, like, I don't know how deep this goes. Is drinking caffeine and not sleeping enough? Like, are there any things that really, really hurt that people have to be aware of that they have to, like, nip in the bud right now?
- [28:41]
Anna Runkle
Well, sleep is really important. And sleep is really hard to do properly when you're dysregulated. So it's kind of a. It's a vicious circle or a virtuous cycle. So you start working on one until you get better at the other and you keep going. Caffeine. I drink caffeine. Some people find it kind of dysregulating. I find helpful. There's a lot of things that are regulating, but they don't work long term. Like, for me. Oh, cigarettes. Did they help me? Yes, they helped me so much. I smoked two packs a day for 16 years. It had. It came with so many problems, it couldn't last. And that was before I had any idea about any of this stuff. When I learned the daily practice, my friend said, I was like, I feel so bad. I just can't stop smoking. I know it's killing me. And my mom had just died of lung cancer and she said, don't worry about it, just keep going with this daily practice. It'll fall away. I was like, you don't know. This addiction does not fall away from me. I've tried everything again and again, but it took about three years and it fell away. And I just, one time I was doing some patches and that time it just worked. I just didn't relapse and it was easy. And for some reason that time, that was like 28 years ago. I've never craved a cigarette again. It literally just like pop, it just was gone. So that was, that's one thing that I would have to say is one of the miracles of my life. That I would say that was a miracle.
- [30:00]
Podcast Host
So if people don't understand what's happening to them, of course if they, if there's a substance or an activity or something that isn't actually long term healthy, but short term helps them see life better or operate better, of course you're going to jump on it and you don't. And even if it's harmful, well, it's okay, let me, let me be human and realize that yeah, it could be harmful in 30 years, but for the next 30 minute meeting it's going to be helpful. So I'm not worried about the, the long term implications. I can only process the short term pain that I'm trying to get rid of.
- [30:29]
Anna Runkle
Yeah. And, and so anything that sort of gives a boost, like anything that gives you a little bit of dopamine or adrenaline starts to be like, so precious and hence enter all the addiction problems. You know, for everything from screens to food, I mean, sugar. Oh sugar, you know, that's like, that'll give you a little temporary lift and then you crash and then you're very dysregulated. And you know, needless to say, drugs and alcohol, that's a lot how people manage it. And for some reason, like if I, if I'm feeling kind of bad and I drink, I feel worse. So drinking has, I just don't have the gene or something for that. But a lot of people in my family did and they're not here to tell the tale. That's a, that one will take you out pretty fast. So, so, so a lot of people are really just trying to re regulate. And so my, my second book, Connectability is about one of the biggest ways people do that. It's tied into everything and it's the urge to isolate as A way to cope with the dysregulation. You feel really uncomfortable in your body, discombobulated, your feelings come out too strong. You don't dare express what you really think to somebody because the way it comes out tends to damage relationships. Like almost every traumatized people, when I talk about this, they're like, oh yeah, the damaged relationships. I lashed out. I, you know, later I was really sorry, but it was too late. And that costs people a lot. And so learning to connect and to be able to hang out, be present with people, listen to them, be yourself, this is rocket science for a lot of us.
- [32:00]
Podcast Host
So the issue is that to connect with people you have to re. Regulate, but as part of the, as part of the dysregulation, you want to avoid people. So again, it's almost one of these cycles of where, where one thing is feeding into the other thing and basically your whole life is, is getting worse.
- [32:19]
Anna Runkle
So I think the pandemic played a big role in giving us a lot of outs where we were not forced to deal with people. And it's kind of like, hey, a lot of bad habits kind of got bigger for people during that time. But the isolation I noticed in myself because I was already like, pretty good at connecting when the, when the whole thing started. But when it was over and I started being fully social again, I noticed that I was very rusty and I would just blurt out weird things and I was having trouble like reading other people. Like, are you annoyed with me or are you happy about what I just said? Like, I was losing my abilities with that. Like, you need regular contact with people to be good at dealing with people. And certainly in work, this is incredibly important to be able to read the room and to be able to know when to hold your tongue about something and instead have it as a private conversation. Like when I was dysregulated. That was one of my big blunders again and again. Here's a story. I was at a conference for this nonprofit I worked for and everybody was sharing cabs to go to restaurants after the day had ended. And you know, I was just some like mid level marketing person. I wasn't like a big shot or anything. And the CEO of one of the things was getting into the cab with somebody. I said, do you guys want to share a cab? They said, sure. And she was with some older woman. I found out later. Well, what I did is I just ended up talking. I was thinking maybe this CEO is going to give me a little like, promotion or, you know, maybe I can negotiate something for myself here. So I was just like, blabbing about myself. Later, I found out that the woman she was with was Susie Buffett, and. And they were discussing a big grant, and I just completely effed it up for her, you know, with. And hopefully they salvaged it later. But I just made a complete fool of myself. And I had no idea. I couldn't read the room. I wasn't sensitive at all. I wasn't like, sort of going, would it be appropriate if I, the underling, said something right now? And probably not just. But, you know, they were just letting me share the cab. So that was the sort of thing I did all the time. And it blocked me. I never got promoted. I was pretty smart. I knew how to reregulate, but it was like life lessons that I did not have yet on how to act. My parents were just like. Like Marxist hippies. They thought money was evil, you know, and people, people who dress nicely obviously were. Had a bad agenda, you know, and so I didn't know. I didn't know how you were supposed to act. So the whole experience of healing for me has been like going to charm school, like, how are you supposed to be a person? And I find it really fun, actually. It's. It's a. It's. It's a delight to me now. But it was very hard at first.
- [34:59]
Podcast Host
Well, I think that this is why covet again, to your point, it's such an impact because people forgot how to be people and how to communicate and how to be social for. For whatever, three, three and a half, four years. And now work has accommodated not being social. Right. With zoom and virtual and everything. So I even noticed. Listen, I chat with people for a living. And if I go a week or two without leaving the house and I'll go out to dinner, I feel awkward. I feel disregulated for a second.
- [35:26]
Anna Runkle
Can we go home now? Because I just want to watch tv.
- [35:30]
Podcast Host
I know. And that's not how the world works. I mean, if you want to be successful at anything, you have to figure out how to interact with other human beings, not just transactionally. Like you have to build relationships with other people.
- [35:40]
Anna Runkle
Yeah. And it's not just like saying things. It's like being aware of how it's landing with them and then being able to sort of hypothesize what would be important to this person. You know, if I want something from them, if I'm trying to, like, negotiate something or have a favor given or anything, to be able to anticipate like what do they care about? Dysregulation is like wearing headphones with AC DC blasting in your ears so loud you don't, you don't actually hear anything. You're just sitting there pretending. Ah, yeah. Uh huh. And you're, it's, it just desensitizes you. And we all know people who seem to be blundering through social situations and a lot of times that's what's going on. They're, they can't tune in. And it's, it's not necessarily a permanent state that you can learn to re regulate and be able to feel. I call this feeling other people's nervous system. There's, we have all these phrases for it, like tuning in, reading the room, being sensitive. But actually our nervous system is very good at reading other people's nervous systems.
- [36:38]
Podcast Host
If you do go through these sort of steps, these daily practices to re regulate and you still feel like you have, I mean you've, you've coined a few terms like covert avoidance. That's one of the ideas that I think just the way when you say just hits, it's like you don't want, you don't want anybody to know that you like being at home. You don't want anybody to know that you don't like social situations. It's almost like a shame that you feel, but you feel it. I think a lot of people feel it. Explain what that is, but also explain. Okay, so I have re regulated. I've gone through these daily practices, but I still feel that, I still feel like I'm not comfortable in these social situations. Like what's, what's the, the thing that I have to do because this is hurting my career, it's hurting my business, it's hurting everything. I can't date whatever it is.
- [37:31]
Anna Runkle
Well, in my book I list eight big ways that big obstacles that are in the way to being able to develop connectability with other people. And they're the common ones. You could probably name hundreds of them, but these are the common ones. And the first one is avoidance. And people talk about this a lot in the context of romantic relationships. Like I'm dating an avoidant guy, he won't really commit. You know, he blows hot and cold. That's like a pattern. So that's avoidance. But a lot of us are covert avoidance. We actually, we make the commitment, but we don't really put our heart in it. We say yes to the rsvp, you know, request to the party and we come late and leave early or we just sit there and say empty things to people and never really connect. Or we just find ourselves too busy and too tired to really pay attention to what's going on. You could have a family that, you know, needs your attention very much. If you're a parent, you gotta be present. And it'll be just like, oh, I'm just so. I'm just exhausted. And it's like that every day. And maybe you are exhausted and maybe the way your life is set up, that's the outcome of the whole thing. And maybe a few people really can't control that right now, but most of us can. It's like a setting that we turn our dial up to so that we don't have to deal with people. How could I be? I was a single mom for nine years, and all the time they'd put out these memos of, you know, come help with the bake sale or something. And I worked full time, and being. Working full time and dealing with my kids was a lot to deal with. And then I had all the surgeries and it was a lot to deal with. But I kind of like permanently adopted this. How can I be expected to contribute to the school? I'm like a special person who can't possibly do that. And then I felt left out because I wasn't really friends with the other parents. They were all going on camping trips. I'm like, why weren't we invited? It's like, maybe because I never hang out with them them and they have no idea who I am. And that was. That was my distorted thinking of thinking that they were sort of persecuting me. I think that's incredibly common. But actually we're avoiding truly connecting with people who we still. We wish we'd connect with them, but we're magically expecting them to, like, reach out and save us from our isolation. And we've got to come out and meet people at least part way to have any kind of a relationship with them. But I think screens have been a huge, obvious problem for connection. And it's a. It's a form of COVID avoidance. I don't know about you, but I have to force myself to put my phone away when I'm eating dinner with other people.
- [39:58]
Podcast Host
The HubSpot Podcast Network is a success story. Partner. Now, quick podcast recommendation. I've been listening to Truth, Lies and Work. They're in the HubSpot Podcast Network. Just like success story. It's this husband and wife team, Al and Leanne Elliott. They break down why people actually do what they do at work. So if you have a business, if you manage people, if you have to hire people at any point, you have to listen to their media social show. I just listened to an episode on why good employees suddenly quit. That's an issue that we all have and it totally clicked for me. One of the reasons they explained is why it's not usually about the money. It's about all these little promises that we as founders, entrepreneurs, managers, leaders, we break without realizing it. Like when you tell someone you just hired that they're going to learn all these new skills, but you just keep giving them the same tasks over and over and over again. It made me realize that I've probably lost a lot of good people for dumb reasons that I never know noticed. And hiring is one of the most important things you can figure out. So if you manage people or if you just want to understand what makes your co workers tick, it's worth checking out. Listen to truth, lies and work wherever you get your podcast Shipstation is a success story partner. You know what separates successful online businesses from literally everyone else? It's not just having great products. It's delivering an amazing shipping experience that keeps customers coming back. All of my friends that run the biggest e commerce companies, they use Shipstation and it has completely transformed how they handle orders. They save thousands on shipping costs thanks to their Rate Chopper tool that finds the best discounts and what makes Shipstation brilliant. You never need to upgrade because it grows with your business no matter how big you get. And they offer discounts up to 88% off UPS, DHL Express and USPS rates, and up to 90% off FedEx. It integrates seamlessly with every selling channel you're already using. And your customers get branded tracking updates to keep them happy, happy and informed. When shoppers choose your products, you turn them into loyal customers with cheaper, faster and better shipping. No credit card required. Cancel anytime. That's shipstation.com code success story. HubSpot is a success story partner.
- [41:52]
Anna Runkle
Now.
- [41:52]
Podcast Host
The future of business is happening right now and you don't want to miss it. That's why you have to be at Inbound 2025. They are bringing together the brightest minds in marketing, sales, business, entrepreneurship, AI for three incredible days in San Francisco, the global epicenter of innovation and technological disruption. Picture this. You are learning directly from Amy Poehler about creative leadership. You're getting AI insights from Dario Amodi, who's literally shaping the future of artificial intelligence. Here's what makes Inbound special. It's not just the great keynotes you're going to dive into breakout sessions where you can immediately implement what you learn. And plus, San Francisco's legendary startup ecosystem provides the perfect backdrop for networking with all these great create entrepreneurs, decision makers, industry leaders, peers who are actively shaping the future of business. From September 3rd to 5th at the Moscone center, you're going to be surrounded by forward thinking professionals who turn insights and ideas into breakthroughs. Don't just watch the future unfold, be part of creating it. Visit inbound.com register to get your ticket today. As I'm looking through some of the things that you've uncovered. Some of the, some of the, some of the things that are not going right in our life are us self sabotaging, but we're not even aware that we're self sabotaging ourselves. So of course, if, if again, just this one particular example of, of COVID avoidance. If I don't even realize that I'm doing it to myself, of course I'm going to argue with you about it. I'm going to say it's not my fault that, you know, the people at the party, for example, they're, well, we're not on the same page or you know, they're not my friend group or I don't feel comfortable like they should be more accommodating to me or the, the narcissist play. I'm attracting all the wrong people. I'm going on the dates with the wrong guys. Well, I'm just unlucky. Like, how am I, how is it my fault that I'm attracting these like, into my life life? But there's, there's subconscious sabotage that you're doing to yourself.
- [43:35]
Anna Runkle
It is subconscious. And you know the word grooming, it sort of means you get somebody used to something that's illogical and harmful and you get them so used to it. I call it crap. Fit you fit yourself to crap. You fit yourself to unacceptable people in situations. You were very good at it. It's not your fault that you got groomed like this to be so good at it. But literally no one is coming to save you now. So once you can recognize it, and it's very hard because it feels like a criticize a criticism to realize that you've kind of been making the same mistake over and over again and it was you and you could have not done that. It feels like an existential threat to a person who's been traumatized. Like they've already been like, put down so much that they're holding on to the ego in the Good sense of the word by a thread. So it can feel like, it can feel life threatening to accept criticism, even though it's actually the most empowering thing. You can point to somebody like that person who said to me, you married the guy. That was empowering. Even though I did feel slapped. But things turned around after that and I was able to completely drop my adversarial relationship with him. I just realized this isn't in my best interest. It doesn't help the kids. He may start a fight, but if I don't fight back, it'll be fine. And within like two days, we weren't fighting ever again. Not ever again, but a lot less fighting. Like, we have so much agency. And, and, and I'm not somebody who, you know, we get on my YouTube channel. I get people like, oh, grow up. You're just a bunch of pansies. You know, everybody has trauma. Stop whining. And the thing is, what we're talking about, the trauma we're talking about is some people have been sexually abused by a parent. They have been hit over and over and over again. They've been told they're worthless. They've, you know, we're not talking about imagined injuries. These are grave injuries to the spirit, to the body, and it does affect people, and it can have lifelong effects. But what we're trying to do is detach that downstream effect of that, of, of that damage so that the damage can heal when you, if you don't learn to re. Regulate and you remain isolated. You know, if you think about it, you can probably think of people you've known in your life, you know, like some angry guy down at the end of the block who, who hates kids and won't let them ride their bikes past the house or something. And they're always yelling at them. And you're like, what. What's wrong with that guy? Well, he's probably been isolated. His dysregulation got the better of him. And he really believes that he's the victim of the children riding their bikes. We get weird like that.
- [45:59]
Podcast Host
Have you, you've heard the concepts of locus of control? Yeah, yeah. And I think that that ties into agency and just a brief explanation is really external versus internal locus of control. And if you believe sort of of in a very simple definition, does the world happen to you or do you happen to the world? Right. Do you have agency and control over your own life? Basically. But my question, and I think that's a beautiful way to sort of just show how some people believe they happen to the world. Some people believe the world happens to them and that shift. And I'm going to ask you, like, if you have an idea of how to make that shift from the world happening to me, to me having agency and me happening to the world. Because that seems as we're going through, we're going through, you know, dysregulation. We're going through all the different things that you have to heal. Sort of the leading indicator of success. And everything we're talking about is having agency and feeling like you can actually make a difference in your own life as opposed to just being the victim of whatever's happened to you in the past, as horrible and horrific as it may be. Have you ever thought about how to actually gain agency if you feel like you don't have any?
- [47:08]
Anna Runkle
Well, yeah, I mean, that's kind of how I make my whole living, is helping people do that. But I think there's. Well, two things I want to add. I want to sort of, like, append. There is. One is trauma is real. The trauma injury is real. And if you. If you kick a dog and you neglect it enough, you've. We've all met dogs where you approach them and they. They're sort of wagging their tail, but then they're shivering and they pee on the floor. They're not trying to get attention. They're not. Not playing the victim card or anything. They have trauma injuries. And so it's a real thing to have to overcome. So it's not just like you flip a switch and go, oh, I have agency over this. But it's part of it. I think the part that conventional treatments have done well is be able to, like, say, okay, come talk about it. You know, have a witness hear what happened to you. But I think for people who don't have this complex ptsd, this is the kind that comes from chronic, ongoing exposure to stress or symptoms similar to it. I don't think everybody's been diagnosed, but childhood ptsd, I call it. I think we instinctively know. Yeah. The set of the cluster of symptoms that are common for people. For people who don't have it, it must look like they say the weirdest things. We joke about it on my channel, but they say stuff like, you just need to love yourself. That's like the craziest psychobabble thing you could say, like, well, how would. Why would I do that? How. Why. Why would I do that? That, like, oh, you're kidding. I just need to love myself. And it's kind of funny and. And I I could, I didn't love myself at all. I despised myself. I was quite angry with myself. And I've ended up sort of by extension loving myself because I did a lot of loving acts. I cleaned up a lot of problems where I was hurting other people. I didn't feel ashamed of myself. I, a lot of work went into me feeling better about myself to where I'm like, yeah, I feel good about myself. And so I just think when people are like, girl, you just need to love yourself. I'm like, you don't have what I have. It's not that easy. Or they say, yeah, your picker's broken. It's true, the picker is broken. But they like. And so what do you do? What do you do about that? And so again like learning to make better choices about who you let into your life is a combination of sensitizing through reregulation. You have to become sensitive and then you have to blunder along and let a few jerks into your life and go, oh, I see, we had that conversation. They actually told me the red flag at the beginning, but I overlooked it because I felt really impatient to get together with this person. And then when I realized they, they were not a fit or they were dangerous, I didn't want to leave because I was afraid of being alone. Like, you have to develop a lot of self awareness before you can start to like unpack. Why did you make self destructive choices? And the why of it isn't even the most important thing. The guardrails are the most important thing. So I teach people for dating, for example, because dating is probably the most potentially poisonous area for traumatized people to lose their bearings, big consequences come. This is how trauma goes into the next generation. And so I teach a lot about how to go very slowly. A traumatized person who struggles to detect red flags, who attaches too quickly, who is scared to leave a relationship benefits immensely from going slowly. So you can let information come to you and then you hang out with like minded friends and you go, what do you think? You know, I, I was gonna call cause he didn't call. And they go, no, no, don't call. You have friends who help you kind of make sense of reality and don't go off into, you know, a trauma driven reverie of crazy behavior that will drive people away. And so with tools to start re regulating and friends to help you stay on, stay grounded in reality, you can kind of reason things out and start making your mistakes honestly. And as soon as you realize you're dating A jerk, you get out. And if you have friends, you can do that. If you have nobody in your life and you don't connect with anybody, few people feel they can afford to leave a relationship and they'll stay and put up with anything because they've gotten stuck in the belief there will never be anything else. So we have to keep ourselves with guardrails of how to be, how to handle life, friends to keep reminding us, and tools that help us keep processing the information, keeping in mind we struggle.
- [51:28]
Podcast Host
To process how do we, how do we. So we're talking about people that have trouble making connection. But also boundaries are important as well. So not over connecting and not depending too much on people.
- [51:41]
Anna Runkle
Boundaries. If you don't have good boundaries, you can't be close to people.
- [51:44]
Podcast Host
Explain that.
- [51:46]
Anna Runkle
So let's say I'm thinking of going to a party and I'm a little worried it's going to be a weird party and I won't want to be there. So my boundary is if everybody's like doing drugs or something, I'll just leave. That's the boundary. And if you don't have that boundary, you go to the party and then you just stay and you think, I better somehow crap fit to this party even though I'm getting weirded out or I should just do the drugs with everybody so they don't think worse of me. Boundaries are just like, you know what your limit is and you observe it. Most people who say boundary, they've confused it with an attempt to control other people. Don't you guys do drugs? I'm not comfortable with it. My boundary is you don't do this. That's not a boundary. That's a, that's a request.
- [52:28]
Podcast Host
And is that the only way to, to set up a relationship so that there isn't some sort of codependence or something that is a little bit too engaged?
- [52:36]
Anna Runkle
I wish it were that simple. Well, the eight obstacles, I told you, one of them is you. We have wobbly boundaries. You got, you have to have good boundaries. And you need to understand the difference between what you won't put up with and things that you would like to request of other people that you're not really likely to get their compliance. So that's, that's one of them. One of them is other centeredness. A lot of people adapt to trauma by being excessively good at locating their being inside somebody else. You know, maybe starts in childhood trying to get a parent, keep a parent from becoming too high or too abusive, but it then turns Into. There are a lot of forms it takes of codependence, people pleasing, obsessive love, where you just think, I can't be happy unless this person who's not interested in me will come around. So it's all about some other person. And you lose your agency. There, you've done it again. And so is the boundary thing. You've lost your agency. You guys, don't do drugs or I'm not going to feel okay, you've lost your agency. And as somebody who's really tried to make other people change, I can just tell you just abandon all hope. It doesn't work.
- [53:42]
Podcast Host
You can ask, in a perfect world, what should somebody be striving for? Like, what would that perfect level of connection and relationship actually look like?
- [53:51]
Anna Runkle
Well, I think that each of us might have two or three people in our lives who really, really get us. And if we find those two or three people, we're very lucky. Hopefully it would be a part. It would be the spouse, one of them, and the other two would probably be friends, maybe a relative. But somebody really getting you means they, they know who you are, they understand the nuance of what you say, and they, they don't really judge you for being the way you are. And that's a tall order if you're still in a state of trauma where you're acting out, getting emotionally dysregulated, unreliable friends, saying cruel things sometimes times. So character development goes hand in hand with being able to form these true connections with people. And so two or three very close people. And then the rest of it is being like, as a parent, to be totally present for kids and as a person who works for a company or for clients, whoever you're. There are customers they're accountable to. Like, I have customers, really, I'm accountable to them. And to be able to keep my head on straight about, like, what that relationship means at what point. Like in my line of business, because I'm dealing with people who are traumatized, occasionally I get people who are abusive, and so that means I cut off the relationship with them. But other times I have to really get up on my toes and provide the customer service they deserve, even though it's inconvenient, even though, who knows, you know, what happened. So that takes a high level of functioning, is to have professional relationships with. With people and then to be able to. Just to be able to go out on the street without looking out the window first and making sure that your neighbors aren't there, to feel confident, to bump into people you Sort of know. And people who are a little irritating and strangers and feel confident, like, I'm going to kind of know how to handle this situation in a friendly way. I'm not going to add conflict to our relationship right now. I know. And then to know how to undo a conflict, how to give a proper apology, how to bring the temperature down when people are getting. Things are getting heated with people, all this stuff you're supposed to learn growing up in a, you know, in a healthy family, a lot of people didn't get that. I didn't. My parents fought all the time, so I had to learn. And now that I learned, it's just. I love this skill. I love it so much. I feel so free. I. I just. I just got back from traveling. I was in London. I was, you know, meeting up with all these people. I would just chat with people anywhere. It's like a new life for me where I'm free. I. And then I gave a. You know, I did a large workshop for hundreds of people, and people come up and talk to me afterwards. And I just. It's a certain kind of, like, ease and confidence. That's what connectability is, a sense of ease that I can. I can pretty much be myself. I trust myself to filter things that are not appropriate in this context. I trust myself. I know what to do if I make a mistake. I know how to fix it too. And then I don't know the whole world. Instead of living small, you get to live as big as you please.
- [56:46]
Podcast Host
For somebody that's listening to this, that recognizes signs of dysregulation in their spouse or their partner or their family member, and there's somebody who they want to help and they want to fix. Like, what do you do is. Because these are not people that hopefully you can. You don't want to just cut them out of your life. You. These are people that you want to put work into and you want to help them go through their own. Is there. Is there something that you can do? Or does this have to be something that they have to take on on their own?
- [57:13]
Anna Runkle
Well, it's not always easy to make other people change or to fix them, but when you have found something that you think might be of interest to them. A lot of people find my work because a partner or a friend or a therapist said, hey, I think you should check this out. A lot of therapists use my videos on YouTube to ask their clients to look at between visits so they can talk productively about something. And the education piece happened off you know, before they met. So it's okay to suggest things to people. What I think is not okay is to try, is to get angry at them because they didn't go for it. It's a very personal decision to, to decide that you're ready to take a step. Also, you know, one method of healing isn't right for everybody. And so it's sort of like, I don't know, like religious fanatics coming to your front door. You know, if you just like, insist, like, I know what you need, that's a, in fact, that's a sign of, of deep codependence. And I get this sometimes. It's like people write me letters. They go, well, I bought my girlfriend 10 books about healing and she won't read them. And I'm just like, ah, time to. Time to just like read the books yourself or let go, you know, like read them yourself. But when we hang on to somebody who we don't find acceptable, which is what's happening there, it's possible we're being avoidant. And sometimes it just helps to be honest. Like, I want to fix them because I don't actually accept how they are. And we've asked them to change, we've shown them what we think might be helpful. But I think if it gets to where you've asked somebody three times, it's you. That's it. That's got to be the line. You just have to like, accept this is not something they're interested in. And if somebody is abusive, I don't think it's acceptable if they're not willing to work on being abusive. But I really, I just thank God for the people in my life who put up with me when I didn't know how to fix this. And, you know, except for when I got really, really bad, they were my friends and some of them are still my friends. Sometimes people left me at that time and they see me again now or they see me on YouTube and they're like, damn, girl, what is this? You changed. And I'm like, yeah, I changed.
- [59:15]
Podcast Host
Yeah, but you put the work in. I mean, like, but not everybody, that's the thing. Not everybody wants to put the work in. So there has to be, there has to be a point where, yes, if, if you're, if you're with that person, they're a spouse or a partner, like, you want to give them the tools and the resources to, to re. Regulate themselves. If you notice, if you listen to this and you're like, I'm seeing signs that a little Bit of this wisdom could help them out. So maybe you tell them to go, you know, watch your YouTube or read a book or something like that, or read a resource. But there also is a point where I think that, you know, you shouldn't. You shouldn't date or marry on potential. You shouldn't go into business with somebody who's a business partner based on potential either. I think that you have to be healed, healthy people going into this, this. And I, I consider business relationships just as difficult as marriages in some cases. And sometimes there's more money on the line too. Right? So, yeah, you have to go into these things healed, or it's going to be. It's going to be difficult.
- [60:13]
Anna Runkle
I would sort of.
- [60:14]
Podcast Host
But then you also have to know.
- [60:14]
Anna Runkle
How to put a little asterisk on the word healed, because there's not really any such thing. You know, there's no island where these are the people who are all the way there and everybody else is at sea. You know, everybody's just kind of like dog paddling around right now. And we're like, we can kind of manage things, or we can manage things pretty well, or we can't manage things at all. And so it's really, you gotta go in with open eyes and just decide, can I accept this person?
- [60:38]
Podcast Host
When you realize that you do eventually have to end a relationship with someone, what is the best way to do it?
- [60:45]
Anna Runkle
I'm a connoisseur.
- [60:51]
Podcast Host
Oh, my goodness.
- [60:53]
Anna Runkle
Well, I've had it done to me enough. But I've also, I've had to do it. And I learned this is what I believe is the best way is if you're clear that you want to do it. You do not try to be friends. And I'm talking about romantic relationships here. But when things have gone that bad, leave in a business relationship is you leave with goodwill. But you don't say, okay, now we're just going to be friends. I don't know about you, but I spent a long time trying to act cool in some situation where I was dying of heartbreak and jealousy, trying to be like, no, no, I'm cool with this, and I did it to other people, too. And then, you know, kind of criticize them for taking it hard. And that's ridiculous. I'm old enough to know now that's ridiculous. And the mature and loving thing to do is to just cut it off the way the Victorians did. And perhaps in some time when things have literally cooled off and neither of you happens to be in another relationship, there can be a Friendship or really enough time has passed that there's no spark there or anything like that. One of the things I did to heal was I stopped having friendships with men who. One of us kind of had, you know, a little, a little thing there, you know, where nobody would ever admit it. And I just ended it. I ended it whether it was me or them. And I told them frankly and kindly, you've been a great friend. There's this thing in our relationship where, you know, I always feel like maybe you like me or conversely, I've always had this little attraction. But I know this is not going anywhere and I need to end it it and I wish you the best. Can't be friends and, and in this culture that was like astonishing. They, they would just be like, what you don't. I. But I didn't. And I go, no, you did nothing wrong. It's okay. We are just doing what people do. But I'm trying to make a big change in my life and for me that's how I became emotionally available for the real thing is I stopped frittering away all my romantic energy on little things.
- [62:45]
Podcast Host
True connectability and true healthy relationships. And I get, I get that healthy. There's no end to this game. It's. You're constantly trying to move in the right direction, but something that is not negative and not detracting from you and not toxic. It's your own self work. It's work with, you know, strengthening connection with other people. It's also making sure they're even the right people that you should be connecting and strength like strengthening those relationships with. So it's not just like a 1:1. It's not just like a one and done solution. It's all of it. It's sort of this 360 about how you first of all heal yourself, put work into other people, make sure they're even the right people.
- [63:26]
Anna Runkle
Yeah. And shedding the people who are not the right people is a whole chapter of my book about releasing the people who are mean and troubling, you know, just troubled all the time. They just bring trouble into your life. And some, there's some people you have to harden hard, quit or you know, boot them out. But sometimes it's just releasing. You don't just keep them around. You don't keep filling your weekends just because there's somebody to hang out with. It does take up space and it keeps draining your batteries and it keeps dimming your light for those people who you could have that great affinity that's inspiring and Positive and well matched for who you are today. You know, not to put people down who are not there right now. Like we're all just like working on it it. But we do tend up and we tend to connect with people who we match who we feel, you know, get us and aren't judging us too much. And so when we make, when we take a big step up, people are going to fall away. You'll get a lot of criticism. People will think you're acting too big for your britches. You know, you think you're better than me, you'll get a lot of that and that you have to release it. Just be like, okay, well best of, best of luck to you and allow there to be an emptiness in your life. And that's how the good stuff comes in.
- [64:34]
Podcast Host
What would be the one thing out of, out of all sort of strategy or idea around connectability and connecting with other people that people have the hardest time with?
- [64:45]
Anna Runkle
I think it's human nature to have a really hard time getting out of ourselves, to stop taking the temperature of how do I feel? What does everybody think about me? What do I look like? Where is all this going? And to be able, when the situation calls for it, when it's time to be present with somebody, to give them your full attention and to be able to hear them. Like, we all know how good it feels when somebody really listens. And I don't mean active listening. How do you feel? How's that? But just like just in the funny moments, just to laugh at your jokes, just to remember, you know, something you liked at the restaurant and be like, oh, should we go to that restaurant? Because I know you like that thing. To attend to who that person is and what's special about them and to be able to like turn your radar to appreciating that person. Because people are so beautiful and amazing and we completely miss out on what a great experience it is to be in the company of another person when we're so self centered and how it's affecting us. And it's a, I think it's a, you know, it's a developmental delay and trauma definitely keeps us stuck in our feelings and our heads. But I think that's also part of the culture and part of the downside of therapy culture. It has many upsides, but one of them is so much of that like inward focus that, that, that can sabotage the, the outer attention, the right balance of outer attention. You don't want to be all the way focused on other people, but to really be able to hear them and. And appreciate them. And that's. Those are the people we love. I'm. I, I was thinking, I was talking to my son the other day. I'm like, aren't. You know, why is it that everybody loves their grandma? Virtually everyone. Your grandma's so nice. Your grandma is just so happy to see you all the time. It's like I said, well, then I'll be a grandma one day. I think that sounds like a really good role where I'm just so happy to see you. I thought about you when you weren't here and I got you some presents. I would just feel like this is the best place ever. You know, somebody cares about me. And so the connectability happens when we can develop that capacity and not lose ourselves and others.
- [66:48]
Podcast Host
I love that. If you had, if you had one wish for people who are reading this book, to take away and just to take the heart. Not the hardest part of this whole process, sort of just focusing outside of yourself, but just the one takeaway that you hope would change somebody's life. What would that takeaway be?
- [67:05]
Anna Runkle
Don't give up. Do not get discouraged, because this is hard. Go slowly. Disconnected people need to go slowly. Persevere. It's worth it. The disconnection will start to be this loop that tells you people suck. You shouldn't deal with them. You'd be much better off by yourself. But just fight it, fight it. And no, your dog is not your child and your books are not your friends. And those books and dogs are wonderful, but so are people.
- [67:36]
Podcast Host
Before we wrap up, just let everybody know. So the book is connectability. Heal the hidden ways you isolate, Find your people and feel at last like you belong. And this podcast will be dropping the same week that it's out so you can get the book anywhere. You get books. Amazon and is there any other places you wanted to send people? Website, social, YouTube website.
- [67:57]
Anna Runkle
And I have like a. I have a couple of freebies you can use if this isn't too many things. One is a quiz of signs that you might have complex ptsd. Or another one that might be more relevant. You can decide. I'll give them both to you. One is signs that trauma is affecting your ability to connect. It's very popular. It's just like a little one sheeter. And the other thing is it's a free course. The techniques, the daily practice techniques. If anybody wants to take it, I can give you a of lot link. It's free. It's a free short course.
- [68:25]
Podcast Host
Give all of these and I'LL put them all in the show notes.