← Success Story with Scott D. Clary
Success Story with Scott D. Clary
Dr. Thema Bryant - Renowned Psychologist & Trauma Healer | Break Free from Trauma Cycles & Reclaim Your Power
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- [00:00]
Scott Clary
Today's Success Story podcast is brought to you by Vanta. Now listen up. This matters for your business. In today's digital landscape, security isn't optional, it's essential. Without it, deal, stall, sales cycle stretch out and scaling becomes really difficult. Why? Because investors, customers, partners, they all expect businesses to demonstrate strong security practices before they commit to anything. And if you can't prove trust, you lose opportunities. So whether you're a startup founder trying to land that first big client or an established company scaling your security program, Vanta helps businesses of all sizes prove they're trustworthy by Automating compliance across 35 frameworks like SoC2, ISO 27001 and HIPAA. The exact certifications your prospects, your customers are demanding. And here's why you need to pay attention. Vanta gives you back precious time you're currently wasting on compliance. Their platform automates up to 90% of the tedious compliance work and it helps you respond to those endless security questionnaires up to five times faster. And they also connect you with to get your security program running immediately. And the results they speak for themselves. A recent IDC report found that Vanta customers achieve over $535,000 per year in benefits and the platform pays for itself in just three months. So join over 10,000 global companies like Atlassian, CORA and Factory who use Vanta to manage risk, improve security in real time, and don't miss this for a limited time, only my listeners can get a thousand dollars off Vanta. That's real money back in your pocket. Visit vanta.com Scott now this offer expires. That's V A N T A dot com Scott For $1,000 off a huge shout out to Federated Computer for supporting today's episode. Let me explain why I love Federated Computer. Why they are friends of success story. They are changing the way businesses buy software because we all need software to run our businesses. I don't care what kind of business you're building, but the best business software doesn't have to cost thousands of dollars each month. So Federated Computer replaces a lot of the software that you're using right now. Let me explain. The average typical Federated computer customer saves 75% or more on their software built and gets great software, top notch customer service and support and a software solution that is uniquely installed for your business without any sort of surveillance or breaches of privacy. For example, if you use Google for email, Salesforce for CRM, Slack for team chat, list Monkey for customer acquisitions, and Airtable for data management with a team of 10, you'd save $9,000 per year on software costs by switching to Federated Computer. They replace all of those. And what's wild is that the cost of Federated Computer doesn't grow as your team grows. You can use Federated Computer savings to grow your business rather than feed the woke Silicon Valley software companies. The Federated Computer team literally invented cloud software. They actually have the patents to prove it. And they are taking a hammer to the ridiculously high prices of business software that all entrepreneurs are suffering from. Federated Computer They've been a longtime supporter of Success story. They're offering 30% off their already low prices when you use a coupon code freelance. So go to www.federated.computer to begin saving 75% or more on your monthly software costs. That's www.federated do computer. These folks are going to do you a big favor. Check them out.
- [03:30]
Dr. Thema Bryant
When you begin to take care of yourself, not abandon yourself, then everything flows from that. Problematic people approach everybody. The question is like how long do you entertain them? Some people talk about healing. Dr. Thema Bryant lives it. A renowned psychologist, author, professor and ordained minister, she spent her life helping people.
- [03:49]
Scott Clary
Break free from trauma, reclaim their authentic.
- [03:51]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Selves and build meaningful connections. My area of research is actually trauma recovery. Recovery. Many times when people have experienced extreme stress or trauma, they disconnect. And a part of what you disconnect from can be your heart. So a part of the healing process is reconnecting with yourself, including reconnecting with your heart. Many times we set it up as an either or. We say, do you want to be a successful person or do you want to be a well person? It's not. That's a false choice. You can be both, but you have to invest in both. With a doctorate from Duke, postdoctoral training at Harvard in leadership at Princeton and Pepperdine, she's shaped global conversations on mental health, spirituality and social justice. Sometimes we are stuck in guilt and shame about mistakes we made in the past, personal or business wise. Learn from it and move forward.
- [04:41]
Scott Clary
As former APA President, she's been a leading voice in mental health equity.
- [04:44]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Through her best selling books, podcasts and sacred artistry, she's guiding millions back to themselves. Today, she's here to share her wisdom.
- [04:51]
Scott Clary
Let's get into it. Welcome to Success Story. I'm your host Scott Clary. The Success Story podcast is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network. HubSpot not only supports the show, but they support entrepreneurs. That's why I'm such a huge fan of HubSpot and I'm very grateful for HubSpot for supporting the show because they help entrepreneurs. And as a fellow entrepreneur, I know it takes a lot to grow your business. A lot of audience attracting, a lot of sales, a lot of marketing, a lot of lead scoring, a lot of channel management, a lot of content, a lot of long days, late nights, a lot of weekends, a lot of wishing there was an easier way. But there is. With breez. This is HubSpot's new collection of AI tools. It's easier than ever for marketers, for entrepreneurs to attract audiences, to increase leads, to score customers, and to close deals fast. Which means pretty soon your company will have a lot to celebrate. Visit HubSpot.com marketers to learn more. I want to start with sort of a main focus that you centered your work on. So what made you focus on the heart as key to a mental health crisis?
- [06:04]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yes. So many times we ignore our feelings and people will even vilify how they feel and say, you know, I'm just focused on the logic. Or I make decisions based on what makes sense and can neglect. What are the things that bring you joy? What are the things that create despair or distress for you? What are the things that you're grieving? And so for us to be holistically well, it requires us tending to our hearts and not thinking of our hearts as an afterthought or as a problem. It's a core part of who we are.
- [06:43]
Scott Clary
It's so interesting because I've always found that we make these decisions with emotions, but then we justify them with logic. But for some reason we try and trick ourselves into thinking that it was just logic the entire time. So first of all, just speak to why we do this and also maybe give some context as to how did your research go in this direction? What was the inflection point that pushed you down this path?
- [07:13]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yes, absolutely. So my area of research is actually trauma recovery. So many times people have gone through very difficult experiences, whether they were the direct target of the trauma or they love and care about someone who went through a traumatic experience individually. Or we see like collective trauma as well, whether school shootings or a veteran after war. And so many times when people have experienced extreme stress or trauma, they disconnect. And a part of what you disconnect from can be your heart. So when you ask people like, you know, how'd you feel about that? Oh yeah, I don't know. Or like nothing. So they're just kind of numb. So a part of the healing process is reconnecting with yourself, including reconnecting with your heart.
- [08:08]
Scott Clary
And I feel like that's not an easy. It's not an easy thing to prove. If everybody just thought, hey, if I just spend like a little bit more time focusing on myself and focusing on how I feel. But I think there. I think there's something scary there about going and looking inside. Like, what. What actually happens with trauma? Like, what's the scientific reason for that disconnect? And you're talking about these really horrible examples of trauma. But I think that most people have some sort of trauma, childhood trauma, things that they haven't dealt with, things that are not as incredibly horrific as school shootings and war, but just things that still impact them. Absolutely. What happens with this?
- [08:57]
Dr. Thema Bryant
So it becomes really a priority for people to feel safe. And so one way we can feel safe is, you know, when we hear the teenagers say, like, I don't care. You know, you tell them there could be a bad consequence. I don't care. And then some of us become adults who still convince ourselves not to care because we don't want to be hurt again, we don't want to be disappointed again. So then people think the solution is the illusion of control. If I try to control everything in my environment and try to control myself, including my emotions, then that feels safe to people, then that can be falsely thought of as strong, you know, that this person is so strong, nothing moves them or nothing phases them. And so the heart has become hardened as a way to feel safe, even though we're disconnected from ourselves.
- [09:49]
Scott Clary
And do you feel like this goes counter. What is the, I guess the legacy or the traditional way to deal with this?
- [09:58]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah. So, you know, what happens is basically we can't heal a wound that we don't acknowledge. So if I keep saying I'm fine, but I'm actually not fine, I'm just kind of diving into being a workaholic, being a perfectionist, being very driven, but I think I'm fine. Then the negative consequences can show up in the way that I treat myself. So that can be self neglect and self abandonment. It may be the way that I treat people who are close to me because that doesn't feel safe or comfortable. And so the way that I parent can be affected by my unhealed wounds. The way I treat my partner can be an effect of my unaddressed hurts. And so it is important that we start to tell ourselves the truth, that we have been through some things that were disturbing or that were upsetting, that had an impact, and that we Then open ourselves up to being transformed, to making a different decision so that my wounds are not running my life.
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Scott Clary
And I think that. So you're saying most people don't even realize that they have these, these wounds.
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Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah, Especially if, as you mentioned, if it was a childhood wound, then people will say, oh no, that's just my personality. Right. Because they develop this armor so early. They don't remember a version of themselves before they were so defended or cold or hard. And so what I say is that's actually not you. That's your wound. You never got to develop a freely flowing you. But you can develop that now. Even in adulthood, we can develop it.
- [11:41]
Scott Clary
And then when they don't heal these wounds, for the average person listening to this, who is a high performer in their work or in their business or just in life, they just want to kill it at everything. Do incredible. How do these wounds manifest? Because I think that part of you teach so much in terms of healing with yourself, with others, but nobody can heal if they don't even recognize, to your point, that they have a problem. So how do these things show up in your day to day?
- [12:11]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah, you may be financially successful, resume incredible. But my question would be, how are you in the middle of the night by yourself? Right. Because many of us can outwardly perform that. That's our way of coping, is to stay busy. But as you were alluding to, for some people, it's scary to be still and let truth show up. So that's why some of us are workaholics. You know, you want to be so busy because you're either running in pursuit of self worth or running from the stigma and shame of your past. And so for you to actually be well, not just look good on paper, this is what we're talking about, tending to your heart. And it also can affect the way you show up in the workplace. We've all had that supervisor or boss who was very controlling, very dismissive, very dishonoring. They were not well, they're on top of this business mountain, but they're not a well person. And so many times we set it up as an either or. We say, do you want to be a successful person or do you want to be a well person? And it's not. That's a false choice. You can be both, but you have to invest in both. Right. So we've invested in the business part. Have you invested in the inner part?
- [13:41]
Scott Clary
Yeah, because I think that I'm just thinking about some of my friends that have been like ridiculously successful from a financial standpoint. And you know, they, they have their exit or they build their business and then the relationship with the kids isn't great, or they divorce their wife or they, they, they, and then they, you see these crazy stories, absolutely crazy stories of people that have had like $100 million exit. Then they're depressed.
- [14:10]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yes.
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Scott Clary
And they can't figure out why. And it, and they can't say that because everyone's going to be like, whoa, right.
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Dr. Thema Bryant
I would be so happy.
- [14:19]
Scott Clary
Yeah.
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Dr. Thema Bryant
We see the same thing happen with lottery winners. Right. Where people thought like if you made this amount, that that's guaranteed happiness. And people you know can live in a mansion and be miserable. Miserable.
- [14:32]
Scott Clary
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- [18:35]
Dr. Thema Bryant
So one of the beautiful things trend that's happening in psychology is an increased attention to our spirituality or faith or religion, which returns psychology to its roots, that it's not just about your cognitions but to really think about ourselves holistically. So your thoughts, your emotions, your behavior, your sense of what is sacred to you, your relationships and community. So it's an important part, and we have well established research of these Things as what we will call protective factors that when you go through the difficulties of life, the stress of life, having a sense of what's sacred to you and, or having community, those things can protect us and help us to deal with life challenges.
- [19:29]
Scott Clary
Okay, does that make sense? So you do have to account for all the factors that impact your data. Like you can't heal yourself fully by saying, I'm going to logic myself into doing some inner work and some internal searching, but I'm going to remove the emotions out of it. I'm going to remove the spirituality out of it. Which I think that's what people tend to do. People that are high performing, logical people, like, how do I fix everything? With a solution or a template or a playbook. And you're saying that's the wrong attitude to go into any of this.
- [20:09]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah. You want to say, I'm not going to ignore or censor parts of myself. I want to be fully grounded in truth. And so we say to ourselves, what parts of you do you miss? What parts of you were you taught to suppress or to ignore? That in order to be successful, I can't be connected to feelings, or in order to be successful, I can't have relationships. So there are these false notions that we've been given and that we then go and teach the people after us. You know, some people who were mentored to believe that these things were true, and yet maybe the person who is mentoring them still has some brokenness or has some aspects of their life that are unfulfilled.
- [20:59]
Scott Clary
So how can you tell if a personality trait is serving you or maybe hurting you? Because some people, again, some people have adopted these personality traits. They've built their entire career off it. What are the signals that things are broken in your life?
- [21:15]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yes. So, you know, you look at what you gain by being a certain way, but you also want to count the cost. Right. So if I say, well, you know, the key to being successful is I only sleep five hours. And that way I'm working when other people are sleeping. And that's the key to success. I get more done because everybody else is asleep. Right. Okay, so you got a couple of extra hours of sleep. I mean, a couple of extra hours of work. But what did you give up by that? What did that cost you? Not only during that time. And we could even say, what was the quality of the work you were doing? Right. So I could be sitting in front of a computer, but if I'm drained and empty, then like, what am I producing out of that fatigue? And then I also require that from my team. Who are the people who could have been good contributors to my team but left because of these unrealistic, inhumane expectations? So what does it cost? And then I would encourage people to look for other models. So you may have thought that is the key because that's what you saw someone you admire do. Are there any examples of people who do it another way? It's so refreshing if you're ever in a work setting where the supervisor or boss is actually a kind person. So it pushes back against this myth that to be a successful leader, you have to be, like, harsh, right? It's like, is there another way? And have, like, do we have evidence of that? We do have evidence of that, of course.
- [22:57]
Scott Clary
And I think that, you know, you're speaking about leadership in, like, the work context. But I think that a lot of people, because I bring this up quite often on the podcast, like, look at your family relationships, too. Obviously, that's a huge signal of success, because, again, in work, it's one thing, but some people put so much of themselves into work that everything else sort of falls by the wayside. And this is why you see people after building anything significant and they have a divorce or their kids hate them because they're not around. And I also would say, and maybe just tell me your thoughts on this, because I think this is a very interesting idea. So people will push back and say, hey, I'm doing okay with my work and my relationship at home is okay. Like, I mean, we're not fighting, but I think we get so used to status quo and baselines and the norm. And for a second, like, I was just going to go ahead, but I was going to say, I just want people to not think about, okay. It's not like, it's not like we're cheating on each other and divorced and screaming, but, like, could it be better?
- [23:58]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Right? That's so important because sometimes our bar is so off, our standard is so off, and we're taking people for granted. There isn't joy there. But you said, like, no one's leaving. We've committed to staying. But, like, I always say, like, it's not. How many years do you have together? How many years where each person was actually joyful, Will each person really felt the other one had their back, Right? Where each person was fulfilled in it. Right? And so for us to be intentional, and that's not just about what I'm giving to the other person, that nourishing my relationships always comes back to me as well. That it, it's nourishing for me to be in a well watered garden.
- [24:45]
Scott Clary
Mm. And I don't even think that. I don't think people understand that. I think that sometimes the relationship becomes this thing that they have to take care of, but it's not in their mind. It's like it's so far from a point where it can actually come back and benefit me that it's just, I, I can't. It's hard for them to see themselves getting to that point. There's like this, this huge divide. But based on your work, the goal is not to just jump in and triage the relationship. I think the goal is to start to do the work on yourself first.
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Dr. Thema Bryant
Right? Yeah.
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Scott Clary
So where do you start?
- [25:20]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah. So a big part is when we talk about self compassion because when I'm compassionate towards myself, I take better care of myself. So that can include the rest. That includes what I eat, like eating to live. That includes movement, exercise. That may include individual therapy or couples therapy. It also includes immersing yourself in things that bring you joy. That's a way of taking care of yourself. Howard Thurman, as theologian said, do the thing which makes you come alive because far too few people are actually alive. And so then it's like the care of my physical body, but also like emotionally and spiritually, you know, what feeds me, what nourishes me. That will also include setting boundaries. So what are the things and the people I need to say no to to better honor myself and to protect my peace and my wellness that I can't keep saying yes to everything being pulled in a million directions. It's not good for our health. And also we don't do those things well because we're too spread thin. And so the. I call it the blessing of boundaries. So bless yourself with the holiness of no. What am I going to say no to? And that often for some of us, those who are more on like the people pleaser part of the scale, we probably need to pause before we answer. Right. If someone asks you to do something instead of an automatic yes to pause sometimes get some more information because you don't know how much is being required by what they're asking. Reflect on it and know that you don't have to say yes to everything.
- [27:11]
Scott Clary
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Dr. Thema Bryant
Right.
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Scott Clary
You can't find it.
- [30:52]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yes. And for some of us, some people were raised to feel guilty for enjoying themselves, to feel guilty for relaxing. You know, depending on your kind of family culture, it may have been like a bad thing to quote, unquote, just sit around, right. That you had to always be doing something. And so some of us have been made to believe that our busyness equals our worth. So we're like, I'm booked and busy, I'm booked and busy, and I have to have multiple streams of income. And if I enjoy something and I'm not making money off of it, then it's a problem. And it's like, no, that's your joy. That's your joy.
- [31:31]
Scott Clary
I think that that's most people. Yes, I think that's most people. Sadly, it is.
- [31:37]
Dr. Thema Bryant
And chasing something, you know, it's a societal setup to never have fulfillment, to never have contentment, for it to never be enough. You know, I practice in Los Angeles and so a number of my clients are very successful, but even if they're having some form of success, they're always looking at like, who is a Step ahead of them. Right. It's like, I'm in the magazine, but how come I wasn't on the COVID Right. It's always, you know, it's always insufficient.
- [32:13]
Scott Clary
I love how, you know, the deeper we get into this, it's very obvious there's like a lot of friction in being happy, in doing the inner work and finding like, there's so much friction. You just mentioned the good point. Society. And I keep thinking about, I want to talk about how to build relationship with others, but I don't even think it's fair to go there yet because people are still trying to figure out, okay, you're telling me all the things that I'm maybe now aware of. Society set up social media, set up comparison. Like, everyone's saying they have to do more, do more, do more, have to be productive, have to make more money. Is there any, like, I don't know, strategy? I don't want to say, make it sounds so robotic, but just something somebody can do right now who is part of this, part of this. All these signals, all these inputs, they're like, I. I don't know how to shut off because my, my wife, my friends, they're all playing this game of needing more and more and more. How do I tune out? How do I remove myself from the Matrix, so to speak.
- [33:15]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah. I think one of the things is actually celebrating our wins and celebrating the wins of our friends and family when we're so perpetually driven for more, we don't even pause to enjoy, like, the good thing that happened. Right. And even, you know, you see people in the media and they're like, so what's next for you? And it's like they're currently touring on a film, like a blockbuster. But no, it's what's next. So it's like, I want to sit in the beauty of this present moment. Right. And we shall see what's next. But in this moment, I'm very excited about what I'm doing or what I've done. And we can create that climate with our family and friends as well. Because some of them, as you said, are like, off to the next. And it's like, no, let's pause and celebrate. This is awesome, what you have done.
- [34:08]
Scott Clary
I think the more you get into the routine of celebrating and creating space for wins, it starts to become more normal. It's just not normal because you don't do it. If you do it enough, it starts.
- [34:19]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah, yes, yeah. And then you can shift the culture of your circle. Then that becomes the thing of like, oh, what are we doing to celebrate such and such. Right. And then that becomes, as you say, it becomes the norm. So along with the self compassion, another piece that we want to work on is self forgiveness. Sometimes we are stuck in guilt and shame about mistakes we made in the past, personal or business wise. And so because we then don't feel worthy, we're perpetually trying to outrun our past. And so to give myself peace to be an imperfect person. And yeah, there are some things I didn't know five years ago, 10 years ago, even yesterday. Right. And I give myself grace to like not have to live in punishment mode the rest of my life, but to learn from it and move forward when.
- [35:16]
Scott Clary
You do that work and then you start to uncover some space in your life and you start to sort of find out what gives you joy, what's actually what is happening. What are you healing yourself at this point? Is this sort of like the first step?
- [35:31]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah, you're starting to heal and you're rewiring your nervous system. Right. So your nervous system, when you're just constantly on the go, is never settled. And our bodies weren't designed to always be stressed. Right. The stress is supposed to emerge when we're in a place of danger and it helps us to then mobilize so we can get out of there or take action. But some of us live in that perpetual state of stress. So when I engage in things that bring me joy or things that are relaxing, it gives my nervous system the message, I'm safe, I'm okay, I can breathe. And we make better decisions and our health is better when we have some of that more settled or peaceful part to our e ing instead of always being on the go or in combat mode where we're fighting everything and everyone.
- [36:30]
Scott Clary
And then when you start to now you operate from a much healthier state of mind, a much better place. This is what you're talking about. You're now healing, you're healing your mind, healing your heart. And this is the internal work. Is there other ideas around internal work that people should know before they start to try and fix relationships with others?
- [36:52]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Right. So part of it can be healing the wounds from your past relationships. So when you've had unhealthy past relationships, you often you may have over generalized or you have come up with some cognition, some thoughts, some rules about how relationships work that were based on the dysfunctional ones you were in. And so then you can bring that same pattern to new people because you haven't healed it. So I always Say instead of jumping from one relationship to the next, let me pause, heal, learn the lesson so I don't have to repeat the class.
- [37:33]
Scott Clary
If, if we've all these, all these traumas that we're like, we're not aware of because we're healing our heart, we're healing our soul, we're just becoming a more centered. We're, we're setting our boundaries, becoming more centered person. The traumas that we don't know, that we had because like you mentioned before, we kind of lived through, changed our reality for lack of a better description. And now that's our new reality. How do we, how do we understand what, what happened and go back to that place and, and figure out what, how it, how we were before our reality shift, Right?
- [38:10]
Dr. Thema Bryant
It is, it depends on the age that you were at the time. So, you know, if things were pretty much routine and pretty much safe until the person you dated at 17 or 22, then you can think about, how was I before this? And trying to recover or regain some of that for myself. For other people who may have grown up in very stressful households where there was addiction or where there was any form of abuse or abandonment, you may not know a prior version of yourself. And so then it is kind of creating it from scratch and starting to recognize your why. So become curious about, you know, why do I respond with such intensity when I'm dealing with someone who has some authority over me or some power over me? How come other people seem to be calm in this setting? And for me, I feel like I'm in danger, right? So as I start to become curious and observant, then I can start to connect the dots of, you know, maybe it's because the people I've encountered who had power over me used it in a harmful way. And so now I'm always on guard for that to happen. So of course that work is easier done if we're in therapy, someone who can help you walk through that process. But if you're doing it with self help books and journaling, it's that curiosity and observation.
- [39:44]
Scott Clary
And then there's, I mean, with your work, you started to discover that the connect there was a significant connection between the self work and the relationship work. So what? So when you start to do the self work, what happens with the relationships? What's the connection?
- [39:59]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Well, to start with, when I work on myself, who I choose is different, right? If I'm in a place of neglect and not feeling good about myself, then a lot of unacceptable things will be acceptable because I Figure like, this is the best I can get, or I should just be grateful they chose me. I'm just glad they called me back after I texted them 10 times. So those kinds of decision making, what I like to say, is problematic. People approach everybody. The question is, like, how long do you entertain them? And when I feel better about myself, I don't feel the need to convince people of my worth. I don't feel the need to stay in toxic situations so long. I'm more able to let things go or to recognize what aligns with me. And also some of that desperation goes down because I enjoy my own company. And then, you know, if I meet friends or a partner who aligned with that, that will be beautiful. But I'm not needing to, like, fill that spot today. Right. You know, I can't tolerate myself. Then it's like kind of anyone who comes along, I'm going to put in that spot because I don't want to be by myself.
- [41:20]
Scott Clary
What are some of the ways. So now, now you focus on the right connections, but say those right connections are in your life, the people you work with, the person you're dating or married to, or say you already have those connections. Like you have your kids. Your kids are not new to your life. They were always there. You've done some self work.
- [41:37]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Right.
- [41:38]
Scott Clary
How do you start to strengthen those relationships? Or how do you even, to your point, like, understand if those relationships need strengthening? Which I think even if they're not bad, like we sort of spoke about before, they could always be better.
- [41:50]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah. So one of them is through deepening our communication. So we may not have, like, problematic communication where people aren't like, yelling and cursing at each other, but are people actually sharing on the heart level? And we can create that shift or that deepening by us introducing that dialogue. So, for example, during the pandemic, both of my kids were home doing school online. And so at dinner, we would have a conversation about what was the best and worst part of the day, and I would share as well. And my transparency about the difficulty of us, you know, being at home or not getting to see friends. That was like a permission slip to them for them to begin to share versus parenting. That just says, like, you should be grateful or, you know, you should never be disappointed or sad or angry. And so by me being more open, it creates more openness in my relationships.
- [42:56]
Scott Clary
So you create more openness. You have deeper. You have start to have deeper relationships, deeper conversations. How do you strengthen these conversations, these relationships? If the person you're working or you're trying to build the relationship with has not done the work that you've done. Because it does take two people to build the relationship. And then what you don't want, say, just use me as an example. I do all this self work. I'm trying to build a deeper relationship with my wife and we have an amazing relationship. I don't want it to be construed. But say, say I don't want to. People think, oh my God, Scott has to do a whole bunch of work and Gina's not happy. But, but say I want to do some work. And, and she hasn't done the work. And then she's like, what? What's going on? Why are you acting so weird? Why? What is this? What is this new you that. And I think that it could be off putting for some, for someone who's in your circle or even forget your partner, a work, a work person, a business partner. It could be incredibly off putting because they don't have that romantic, intimate connection with you. They're just almost like a business transaction relationship. And you want, and you understand that having a deeper, more meaningful relationship with that person is going to be positive on the other side of it. But they don't want to go down that same path as you or they don't understand what you've done.
- [44:21]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yes, I appreciate the question because for me it's so important not to like sugarcoat things or just be like this motivated speaker. Like it'll be great. It has its costs. When you heal and change, you'll discover some people liked the old you. Some people were comfortable with your brokenness. Some people were benefited from your insecurity, you know, by your silenced muted voice, by you being a doormat, by you never having any of your own opinions but doing whatever they say. Some people love that. And so as you heal and start to look deeper and speak from a more deeper place, then it will shift things. It's a ripple effect. So some people will shift with you and some people will fade away.
- [45:08]
Scott Clary
That's tough.
- [45:09]
Dr. Thema Bryant
It is. And I want to say too as it relates to marriage that there are different ways of working on ourselves. So I find it really important for us never to get to the place where like our path is the only path. So if they're not doing it our way, then we're like, they're not doing the work. And you know, an example that just comes up for me is working with a couple and the wife is really into like self help books and the guy is just not a Reader. He's never been into books. The whole time they were dating and now they're married. And she was trying to frame it as if he doesn't read these books, he doesn't care about the marriage. And it's like, that's not true. Like when you, when you got with him, he wasn't into books. So. But what are the other ways that he demonstrates his care and desire for you all to have a healthy marriage? So, yeah, it's just important that we broaden our idea of what the pathways of what work, self improvement look like.
- [46:12]
Scott Clary
There has to be something about seeing, seeing development through the lens of the other person, like walking their shoes. It sounds cliche, but it's so true. And I think that we've been so funny, we forget like the most cliche common sense sayings when we, when we try and build relationships, but they are very true. Because if we're doing all this work and the other person shows support, love, camaraderie, friendship in a different way. What I found to be the not toxic. Toxic's the wrong word. But the negative part of doing the self help and the self work is you imposing that exact same thing on someone else. And then you're trying to increase their standard without them even understanding that you're playing a whole different game.
- [47:00]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Right? That's right. Yeah. We make ourselves not only the center, but the standard. So then like, if you're not doing what I'm doing, then you're not ready or you're not serious or. And yeah, perspective taking and compassion and just more of an openness.
- [47:20]
Scott Clary
Because the whole goal of this is not so that you think that you've done the work and now you're better than everyone else.
- [47:26]
Dr. Thema Bryant
That's right. Then we got to start all over.
- [47:30]
Scott Clary
Exactly, exactly. And I'm sure you see this, I'm.
- [47:34]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Sure you see this for some people becomes an ego trip. Then it's like now you still can't see yourself. Right. Because you have this like inflated sense of self, which we know that inflated sense of self is a cover for insecurity.
- [47:50]
Scott Clary
A big thank you to indeed for supporting success story. Because hiring people is one of the hardest things you're ever going to have to do. As an entrepreneur, as a founder, as somebody who's trying to build a business. It's important to hire well and find the right person, but it takes so much time and it's so labor intensive because like most entrepreneurs, you have a thousand things going on and there's a good chance that you just realized your business needed to hire somebody yesterday. So how can you find that great amazing right fit candidate Fast? It's easy. Just use Indeed because you don't have to waste time struggling to get your job posts seen on all these other job sites. If you're using Indeed, you can just use their Sponsored Jobs to help you stand out and hire fast. Your post jumps right to the top of the page for relevant candidates so you can reach out to exactly who you're looking for faster. And the results really speak for themselves. According to Indeed data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. And you know what I love most about Indeed? It really just makes hiring so fast because everything is streamlined in one place. No more juggling multiple platforms or waiting weeks for the right candidate. And how fast is Indeed in the minute I've been Talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed according to Indeed Data Worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of Success Story will get a $75 SP job credit. To get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com clarity terms and conditions do apply. Just go to Indeed.com clarity A huge thank you to NetSuite for supporting today's episode. Now, what does the future hold for business? If you ask nine experts, you're going to get 10 answers. Bull market Bear market Inflation up Inflation down. Honestly, at this point you just need a crystal ball. But until we get one over 41,000 businesses. I found the next best thing. They future proofed their businesses their operations with NetSuite by Oracle, which is the number one cloud ERP. Imagine having your accounting, your financial management, your inventory, your HR all flowing together in one fluid platform. And here's what makes NetSuite different. It gives you one source of truth for your business. You get the visibility and control to make quick, confident decisions while others are guessing. You're working with real time data, insights, forecasting. You're basically looking into the future of your business with actionable data. Whether your company earns a couple million or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and helps you grab your biggest opportunities. And speaking of opportunities, they Put together the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com ScottClary this is the playbook for understanding how to use AI for your business. The guide is free, that is netsuite.com ScottClay A shout out to NORDVPN for supporting today's episode. I Have to tell you a story. So I was actually in Toronto visiting family last month and I went to binge some of my favorite Netflix shows. I forgot and I realized that half of my US shows weren't available in Canada. Super annoying. Flipped on NORDVPN within seconds I got access to everything. Now it's not just about watching shows. What makes NORDVPN a game changer really? Just imagine having this personal security guard for your entire digital Life. With just one click you're connected to one of their 7100 servers across 118 countries. I mainly use it for accessing streaming services when I travel, but I've also saved hundreds on flight bookings by checking prices from different countries and their new threat protection pro blocks. All those endless pop ups and suspicious links before they even get to me. And what I love most is how simple it is. One account, 10 devices. So laptop, phone, iPad, everything's covered. And the speed, honestly it's so fast that I forget that I'm even using a vpn. And the best part, I've got a special offer just for success story listeners. So head over to nordvpn.com success and you'll not only get their best discount, but they'll throw in an extra four months on the two year plan. And don't worry about commitment because they offer a 30 day money back guarantee. The link is in the episode description. Trust me, it's worth checking out, especially if you travel or stream content regularly. That's nordvpn.com success. So when there's somebody who has not gone on this journey, who's an important person in your life, what's, what's your advice? To start building that you've done the work yourself. You want to strengthen that relationship, business, personal, otherwise they're not on the same page. They're the boyfriend who hasn't read a book the entire relationship, what do you do?
- [52:07]
Dr. Thema Bryant
So I would look at creating, co creating moments of joy together that are out of our norm. So it may be like they don't want to read the book, but the author is given some talk in town and so to see like they want to, you know, they may be more open to hearing someone speak if they're an interesting speaker than like reading the whole book or you know, going horseback riding or whatever. It is like a different experience that can stretch us instead of remaining stagnant where you know, all we do is like go our separate ways and we're like roommates, but we're disconnected.
- [52:46]
Scott Clary
Yeah, I guess it's like you're kind of doing what you did for yourself. You're creating space for joy because you're, you're understanding that the majority of people do not have joy in their life. They have, they're on a hamster wheel. They have all this commitment and they're always rushing to keep up.
- [53:02]
Dr. Thema Bryant
And that's why, you know, a lot of times people will begin to think about their marriage or relationship just as obligation or duty or bills. Because what has been neglected in that is the friendship and it is the joy.
- [53:16]
Scott Clary
What would be the biggest when it comes to building relationships, meaningful relationships like heart centered, soul centered relationships. What do you think is the biggest misconception about how to do it?
- [53:31]
Dr. Thema Bryant
A big mistake that people make is trying to be who they think the person wants and not being honest. So, you know, we, we may think we're protecting their feelings. Sometimes we're like avoiding conflict, but our emotions haven't changed so that we could have growing resentment and the other person have no idea that something's wrong. So I would say that lack of communication and pretending to be okay with things we're not okay with with.
- [54:05]
Scott Clary
When you harbor that resentment towards somebody for so long.
- [54:07]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah.
- [54:08]
Scott Clary
I'm sure you see what show. But I'm sure there's like physical health issues, mental health issues. All of it.
- [54:14]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah. Including there's research on suppressed anger in women showing up with autoimmune disease. It can show up in our, you know, respiratory system, women and men, our reproductive system, our digestive system. So, you know, a lot around gut health is like connected to our stress levels. So it is important that we express ourselves so that we can actually build something real. If I'm having to pretend and you're pretending, we don't have a real foundation.
- [54:51]
Scott Clary
Yeah. And just some of the more difficult parts of relationships. So trust issues, betrayal, conflict, personal and professional, you know, the lessons sort of cross over to both. What's the advice for somebody to maintain these relationships through conflict? And then I'll ask about betrayal as well because obviously that's a huge one in work or with a cheating spouse, partner or something. Or even, not even that serious. So first of all, conflict. So you've done, you've done this work. How do you, you have conflict with somebody, you don't want to throw it all out the window. What do you do?
- [55:25]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah. So one of the things with conflict is recognizing some things are not that deep. Right. I like to say some things are not drama worthy. So like, are we really like going off because of this. And if there is a big, like, commotion over something that seems small, then really that's not the issue. It's like, what are you all really arguing about? Because it doesn't match the intensity, doesn't match the topic. Right. So I think a part of it is also recognizing that your spouse doesn't have to agree with you on everything. Some people, like, sincerely take disagreement as disrespect. Right. Of like, how dare they disrespect me by having a different opinion. Now, that's not disrespect. They have their individual who had a different life experience than you, so they land in a different place on this particular topic. So, you know, a part of it when we're trying to find resolution can be, does it have to be an either or? Like, whatever we're debating, is this one of those where it could be a both and. Or is it like, you know, opposite perspective? So we really have to choose and then like, either who has more investment in it? Because for some things, some of us may feel like I have a preference, but I don't really care. Right. Like, if I was going to choose, I would pick this, but whatever. Right. Versus the other person may be like, I want this and it means a lot to me. Okay. So you put that in the equation and then you can also, you know, consider some level of expertise. Right. If one of the two people have like a finance background and we're making a financial decision, well, you know, if we have a different perspective, let's think about maybe who has the experience on the topic and let that, you know, put some weight on the scales.
- [57:25]
Scott Clary
Yeah, no, that makes it. I like, I like that approach a lot. And then the second part to that would be the betrayal piece. And when somebody betrays you, obviously you probably have opinions about which relationships are worth maintaining, which relationships you should exit out of, given the opportunity, if you do have that opportunity to exit out of them. What are some thoughts that people should consider if there's betrayal in the relationship?
- [57:53]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yes, great question. And I will say, you know, in my clinical work, I always leave it to people to decide. Right. Like, good therapy is self empowerment for people to honor their choices. And also for me, I'm not going to have people years from now saying, you told me that wasn't me. Like, you chose for yourself. But, you know, factors for people to consider is the person demonstrating consistent remorse. Because sometimes people apologize, but if you bring it up a week or two weeks later, they have a bad attitude. Like, I thought you forgave me, why do you keep throwing it in my face? It's like this just happened and they're still hurt by it, right?
- [58:42]
Scott Clary
Yeah.
- [58:43]
Dr. Thema Bryant
So consistent remorse. And is it. Are they just upset they got caught or are they upset that they have jeopardized the relationship because they actually like, don't want to lose this person? And then you can think about the pattern of it. For some people, once is sufficient because they feel like if you did it once, you'll do it again. For other people, they're like, oh, if it was kind of only once, I'll give that a pass. So you have to decide for yourself where that line is. For some people, it's the level of connection with that person. Like a one night stand versus like you have a whole nother down the street, right?
- [59:30]
Scott Clary
Yeah.
- [59:31]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Well, you know, all of those can be factors. But what. One of the factors that people often don't consider, which I think is really important, is what has been the state of the relationship overall. Right. Because if you felt good in the relationship, then you may feel like that goodness was enough to fight for and that you want to like restore that versus if like the other areas of the relationship were already problematic and maybe the one thing you were holding onto was at least this person is faithful. Right. So you're like, oh, they don't do this, they don't do that, but at least I can trust them. Well, in that circumstance, when the person breaks your trust, then you're like, well, now we have nothing.
- [60:17]
Scott Clary
Yeah. Is there, is there a way that you've seen. Nothing is a hundred percent certain, but is there some way to understand if that person is sorry that they got caught versus sorry that they hurt you? Because I think that is a huge. Yes, a huge factor in that decision.
- [60:39]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Right. It's their tone in response to you afterwards. Like I was saying, if they're acting like it's a problem that you're asking questions. Right. If they're acting like it's a problem that intimacy is now hard for you because of what they did. See, someone who regrets it and feels for you will understand that you're not just a light switch. So there are going to be consequences of their behavior. So they will deal with themselves, sit with themselves to be able to have the patience for your process and to keep showing up instead of then doing the mind game where you're the problem because you're hurt.
- [61:24]
Scott Clary
Huge shout out to Pork Bond for supporting today's episode. They were voted the number one domain registrar by USA Today in 2023, 2024 and 2025 pork bun helps you establish your trusted online presence with a DOT Pro domain. You can go get one there right now. The DOT Pro domain extension is perfect for any online professional, from freelancers to small business owners. It helps you show off your skills and provide instant credibility to your online portfolio. Make your experience even better when you choose porkbund.com because every domain from Pork Bun comes with features like free whois privacy, SSL certificates, web and email hosting trials, and more. After all, why are you paying for things that should be free? With a simple user interface, you can manage everything about your domain from one place. Plus it all comes back by personalized 5 star support 365 days a year. If you have any problems, Pork Bun is going to help you out. Get ready to level up your professional online presence and grab a dot pro domain for only $1 for the first year at Pork Bun for a limited time A big thank you to Indeed for supporting Success Story because hiring people is one of the hardest things you're ever going to do as an entrepreneur, as a founder, as somebody who's trying to build a business. Because it's important to hire. Well, it's important to hire and find the right person, but it takes so much time. It's so labor intensive because like most entrepreneurs, you have a thousand things going on and there's a good chance that you just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find that great, amazing right fit candidate fast? It's easy. You just use Indeed because you don't have to waste time struggling to get your job post seen on all these other job sites. If you're using Indeed, you can just use their sponsored jobs to help you stand out and hire Fast. Your post jumps right to the top of the page for relevant candidates so you can reach exactly who you're looking for faster and the results really speak for themselves. According to Indeed data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. You know what I love most about Indeed? It really just makes hiring so fast because everything is streamlined in one place. No more juggling multiple platforms or waiting weeks for the right candidate. How fast is Indeed in the minute I've been talking to you. 23 hires were made on Indeed, according to Indeed Data worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com Clary, just go to Indeed.com Clary right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed. Do terms and conditions apply? If you're hiring, Indeed is all you need. Thank you netsuite for supporting today's episode. Now, what does the future hold for business? If you ask nine experts, you're going to get 10 answers. Bull market. Bear market. Inflation up. Inflation down. Honestly, I just need a crystal ball. But until we get one, over 41,000 businesses have found the next best thing. They future proofed their operations with NetSuite by Oracle, which is the number one cloud ERP. Imagine having your accounting, your financial management, your inventory, your HR all flowing together in one fluid platform. Here's what makes NetSuite different. It gives you one source of truth for your business. You get the visibility and control to make quick, confident decisions, while others are guessing. You're working with real time data, insights, forecasting. You're basically looking into the future of your business with actionable data. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and helps you grab your biggest opportunity. And speaking of opportunities, they Put together the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com ScottClary this is the playbook for understanding how to use AI for your business. The guide is free. Go to netsuite.com ScottClay that is netsuite.com Scott Clary A lot of your work centers around relationship patterns being hard to break. Do you think that there is some times where a mistake, a betrayal, cheating, is that not a pattern? Or is it the sign of something in the future that people should be more worried about?
- [65:47]
Dr. Thema Bryant
It is true that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, right? It's like once someone does something, you just know, like they have the capacity for it, right? It's an option. Whereas you may feel like before that it was not an option to be considered. So it can be. Sometimes you discover and I've worked with clients who have actually never been faithful. It's just now they got caught, right? And they, you know, people who are transparent with me will say, I'm not sure I can be like some people before marriage and during marriage, just always had people on the side who knew or didn't know they were married. And so, you know, now that it comes to light, they're having to grapple with like, do I want to even try and do I believe I can? You know, you would think, you know, you'd want people to contemplate that before marriage. But, but some people, right. And so now they're really thinking about, you know, can I really say with confidence that the rest of my life I'm going to be with this one person? Right. So it is important for, for people to interrogate like do you actually want to be married if this is what this person's idea of marriage is. Of course some people are in a marriage where it's open and they just have the rules of as long as they're not at my house or whatever it is, then like, you know, you can be with one of those people. But for this person, you know, for them the commitment, the covenant was this. And you knew that, right? Yeah, oh yeah. Having to really have some, some both engagement, truth telling with yourself, but also learning new skills. So you know, with some people I'll have them look back of like what are the pathways that often lead to the cheating? So you can cut some of that stuff off that happens earlier. Right. So like if you're in the coffee shop innocently flirting with people. Right. But often that ends to that result in like exchanging numbers or social media, you know, so all those things you may say like I didn't do anything, but it's leading somewhere, right?
- [68:08]
Scott Clary
Yeah. And I think that you know, on both sides of a broken relationship, for both people, there's always two people involved in a broken relationship. All the work you're talking about, it's going to do two things. For somebody who is a, who is a cheater, somebody who betrays trust, they're probably going to understand a little bit better why they're doing it. And maybe that's the work that you're talking about in your book can actually help them stop doing it. And on the flip side, the person that is getting betrayed or cheated on or hurt now, they're going to have the self worth and they're going to have the confidence, I would assume to make the right decision about that person and potentially be with somebody who does honor what they want. So on both sides, right.
- [68:50]
Dr. Thema Bryant
It's all about looking for the work is for everybody. And sometimes, you know, I say sometimes even if a relationship ends, it could be a win for both people. That is a painful experience. But you can both grow in the aftermath and land on the other side as better people and better partners.
- [69:08]
Scott Clary
Yeah. I think that most people too who are cheating, betraying, I think deep down they actually want to understand why they act the way they act or why they're triggered or why they do the things they want to do. And I think that they just have a hard time understanding where to even start the self work. Because I don't think most people outside of like some edge cases, I don't think most people wake up every day and want to hurt someone or want to ruin someone else if you're not.
- [69:37]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Even thinking about the other person. Right. It's not like, I'm going here to hurt you. They're usually not wanting that person to find out. Often it is a way of feeding the ego, of feeling like, here's this person who admires me or who seems to be into me and like there's no emotional labor involved. Right. We can just show up, meet up somewhere, have this encounter, and it's like all joy and no labor. Right. Then they associate home with like the labor of family and marriage and all of those things. And you know, some in particular, some boys and men grew up being told that like the number that you have is the reflection of your value at worth. Right? So more is that the enjoyment is actually not even so much the physical and sexual intimacy, but the conquest. Right. Of like, I got this one. So that's why they put you in another category. Like once you said, I do. They're like, okay, I got them. Like, put them over there now who am I going to get? Yeah.
- [70:50]
Scott Clary
And I think that I've heard this before. I mean, I know that a lot of your work focuses on relationships and that's, that's, that's a really important piece of everyone's life, obviously. But I've also heard that, you know, I wouldn't do business with somebody that cheats on their wife because if they can cheat on their wife, then how do I know they're going to be loyal to me as a business partner if you're already hurting the person who's the most important person in the world to you. Right?
- [71:13]
Dr. Thema Bryant
So yeah, that's a good point. We say like character, integrity and also I should say the word discipline. And you know, it takes self discipline to say, I'm going to say no to this temporary pleasure because my priority is this like long term. Yeah. Value.
- [71:36]
Scott Clary
What would be one idea or one. You can answer this one of two ways I would say one important idea from the book that I didn't ask you about that I should have, that you want to leave with the audience. Or also it could just be the most important takeaway from the book that you think the audience should know that if they read the whole book and they only take one thing away, what it would be.
- [71:58]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah, So I think an important aspect of the book that we didn't touch on is a chapter on how to release someone who doesn't love you. And many people spend months, if not years, waiting for someone to choose them and, you know, holding on to this, like, fantasy or dream that one day it will happen. And so, you know, it's important. You know, kind of the first step in that process I talk about is to recognize the truth, which is you don't have to release them because they're already gone. They're already not yours. So this idea of, like, how am I going to let them go? It's like, they're not with you. Yeah. So. And to know we're putting our lives on hold, you know, there could be people who would either love to be your friend, if it's a friend, love to be your partner, but because you're so tied up in this idea of who you thought it was going to be and when you thought it was going to be, that you're, like, missing your life. And so we also want to look at, in those circumstances, if that's a pattern or a cycle, like, why do I keep picking people who don't pick me? Or why do I keep picking people that aren't available? It may be that we're emotionally unavailable. And so then I can pick people who are otherwise distracted and I never have to deal with actual intimacy and connection.
- [73:33]
Scott Clary
That's tough for people to come to terms with.
- [73:36]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yes. Yeah, it's easier to, like, keep trying that. Maybe, like, dress this way or send this message or do this thing. So again, that reminder of you're already enough, you're enough. And the people who align with you, who value you, will see that and desire mutual connection with you instead of you always being the pursuer.
- [73:59]
Scott Clary
When you do this self work, the first step, all of this becomes, I'm assuming, a lot easier to see.
- [74:06]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yes. When you begin to take care of yourself and not abandon yourself, then everything flows from that. Then I'm, like, grounded in truth, grounded in compassion for myself. So I want to not only choose people, but I want to act in a way that honors my values and my truth.
- [74:28]
Scott Clary
Amazing. Where can people go to connect with you when this drops? I think the book will be available wherever you can get books. So Amazon and probably every other bookstore in the world. But I'll put the link in the show notes. Where can people connect with you? What else do you want to know about your work? What you're working on outside of this?
- [74:48]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yes, absolutely. So please connect with me, if you're on social media, on Instagram, it's Dr. Dr. Tama T H E M A my website is drtama.com and the books are not only everywhere that books are sold, but I was glad to also do the audio version of the book. So if you prefer to listen instead of like sitting there reading it, you can have that. And the book that came before this one is called Homecoming. And so that's for people who have experienced any form of trauma, childhood or otherwise. You can look at that work as well to help you to heal.
- [75:29]
Scott Clary
Amazing. Thank you. I want to ask one last question. This has been phenomenal. And the last question I'd like to ask because you've given over a lot today, but also in your life, you've had a lot of sort of insight, wisdom, experience. And of all the things that you've learned in your life, let's pretend that you can only pass one of those lessons on to your kids, because it's the most important lesson. It could be about business, life, it could be about trauma, healing, anything, it doesn't matter. The thing that's most important to you, you want to pass on to your kids. What would that lesson be and why?
- [76:02]
Dr. Thema Bryant
Yeah, I would want my kids to live from a place of sacredness. So when you treat yourself as though you are sacred, that will be that you honor yourself and value yourself and then you build relationships and you treat other people in a sacred way. And then larger than that, because I am one of those dreamers who want to change the world, I have ideas about seeing humanity in a sacred way. Then whatever work I choose to do, for me, it becomes like an act of ministry or service or collective care. And so I would say be sacred and live sacredly.
- [77:00]
Scott Clary
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