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Success Story with Scott D. Clary
Jeremy Miner - Sales Training Expert | The Sales Framework That Closes 93% More Deals
01:19:18
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- [00:00]
A
In psychology, you're taught that every human being has belief systems. We call those frames. I always ask people, is selling something that you, like, do to people or selling something you do for people? See the shift there? This is Jeremy Miner, one of the highest earning sales professionals in the world. Over $2 billion in sales. Not by talking more, but by listening better. At 20, he was living paycheck to paycheck. At 30, he was leading the quiet revolution in sales.
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B
What would be the strategy for B2 or B2C to start to uncover those things?
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A
It's how you frame the questions and it's how you ask them. Your tone. You can steal somebody's content, but you can never steal their experience. Most salespeople that sell on Zoom make some pretty critical mistakes. They're really bad. Turning outdated high pressure tactics into something elegant, human, and wildly effective. Today, he teaches the biggest brands how to sell without selling. But it all started with a simple realization. The best salespeople don't convince. They get their prospects to convince themselves. If you're on Zoom and they only see up here and they can't see any of this, subconsciously you're communicating to them that you might be hiding something. You want to see naval up. We call this the trust zone. Success is simply a choice. You decide if you're going to be successful or not. Nobody forces you to be unsuccessful.
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B
So where did your story start? And, and all the things you struggled with in sales, all the sales gigs didn't go so well. And then how did.
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A
Eventually I went to school to become a. I was either going to become a psychologist or a psychiatrist. I was always fascinated with the human brain and why people do the things they do. Like why does somebody say no compared to why does somebody say yes? Like, what's going on up here? This is what I'm always curious about. It's fascinating to me. I went the psychologist route because I didn't want to go to medical school for a year. Psychiatrist, you have to go eight years of school because you have to prescribe, you know, depression medication, all that kind of crazy stuff. And so as in psychology, you're taught that every human being has belief systems, Right. We call those frames. You ever heard like framing or reframing from, like nlp?
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B
I've heard from Oren Clough.
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A
Yeah, okay. Or, yeah, I've read one of his books, the Pitch. Anything. I like that book. It's a really good book. He's status framing. I like that. So the, the word framing and reframing, you know, it Wouldn't come from Oren. He knows that wouldn't come from nlp. It actually comes from Sigmund Freud. It comes from the Milton Erickson. It comes from Eric Erickson. You're talking about like psychologists, you know, 100, 120 years ago, you know, like Sigmund Freud. Let's say if I. You have a patient and your patient has a belief system that they want to end their life, they want to commit suicide. That's their belief system. So how do you take them out of that belief system? That's called a D frame. Okay? D frame. I'm taking them out of their current way of thinking. Okay. And then I'm going to reframe them into a new belief system or a new frame. So this is what I'm being taught in school, like at a high level. And I took it a lot more seriously probably than most of the students did, because I was like buying every course I could get. I was going to like seminars on the weekends, you know, like to learn this stuff because it fascinated with me. And I got married. I'm divorced now, but I got married when I was like 21, I was still in school and I was playing baseball as well. And I'm like, I have a kid on the way, so I'm like, oh gosh, I gotta make money. And so I went to this like recruiting meeting, long story short. And I got hired. It's straight commission. So they just hire everybody. Like if you're a body in a pulse, like hired, you know, there's like 300 people there. 300 people get hired. What kind of home security systems? Like alarms. So I was going to school in Utah, and that's a, that's a big industry, the door to door space there. And so they shipped me up to like Boise, Idaho that summer. And you know, first like six, eight weeks, I was really, really bad. And I was just following their scripts. They gave us a couple books by the sales gurus. And you know, they were like, hey, sales is a numbers game. The cliche, you know, always be closing, you know, you know, buyers are liars, just the whole thing. And they would say like, you know, you gotta, you gotta talk to, you gotta knock on 100 doors to make one sale. That was their thing. And I'm just like, but why? So my mind is like, I'm always questioning everything. I'm like, well, why do I have to talk to, you know, 30 people to close one deal? Why can't I talk to 10 people and close eight deals? Like I Don't understand. So this is the way my mind thinks. So after doing their approach for like six, seven weeks, I'm like, okay, this really sucks. Like there's a lot of rejection. I'm not making hardly any sales, not making any money. Like I've got to take because I was always non to me. Like this doesn't make any sense. Like I could literally see the way they would have you talk at the beginning was triggering the prospect to go into fight or flight mode. See, this is the way my brain was there thinking. I'm like I see. And so of course the nervous system. So I can see their nervous system getting triggered by what I'm saying. So I had probably an unfair advantage over most salespeople because you I just knew like, oh, I could see by their tonality that they're uncertain there. I could see by their nervous system. I just triggered them by what I was taught to say. So I'm starting to apply what I'm, what I'm learning here, you know, psychology wise. And lo and behold, I started making a lot of sales. Like a lot of sales. And that first year I finished the top salesperson in that company. And there was like, there was only like 300 salespeople there. But like people had been there for years, you know. And I like, they're like, who's this kid? Like where did this kid come from? And that's kind of the start of it. And then I got into. So I did that for five years with a company that's now called Vivint. If you've ever, if you watch the Utah Jazz, they played in the Vivint Center. So a huge company now. And then I got into B2B enterprise sales and debt relief services. Did, did well there. Then I got into network marketing, did well there. And then got into selling like high ticket financial events, you know, and had an 18 year sales career and retired in 2018 and then started 7 level in 2019. Here we are.
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B
So these, these principles, they worked across every industry?
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A
Well, apparently yeah. So I mean, because it works with human behavior. Right? So when you're talking, you know, people are like, will it work for what I sell? Will only work if it you talk with humans. Right? Because see, the way I look at sales is a little bit different. You know, I always ask people, is selling something that you do, like do to people or selling something you do for people? See the shift there? Okay. I'm doing it for them. Because if I can't communicate and frame my message the best that Means their problems stay the same and nothing ever changes when they don't buy and they don't get what they want. Okay? So that's my responsibility as a salesperson. So I'm doing it for them, okay? I'm not doing it to them. And I think most salespeople have been taught it's not their fault, but it is their problem. Most, as we've been taught, that you're doing this to the person, like you're trying to manipulate them. You're trying to, you know, pressure them so you can make money, and that's why they stay average. I'm doing it for them. Okay? So, you know, big. I'm a big fan of Tony Robbins now. You know, me and Kayla went to his Date with Destiny event actually here in Florida back in December.
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B
Make sure I'm correct. That was one of the first influences. Tony Robbins.
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A
Yeah. I mean, I've seen him on YouTube before, but I've never been to one of his events until.
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B
Oh, oh. So like, very recently.
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A
Very recently, yeah. But he influe me from the very beginning because I remember getting into a van one night about two months in when I was selling my first year, and I'd made zero sales that day, so I made zero dollars. And my manager, he, you know, his name was Xane, had this, like, curly blonde hair. He puts in the CD, you know, they had the CDs back then, you know, this, like, 20, 22 years ago, 24 years ago. And Tony Robbins, I still remember it, he. He said, you will fail for the simple reason you don't learn the right skills necessary. See, like, you will fail if you don't learn the right skills. I'm like, I gotta learn some skills, you know, because have you ever wondered why, you know, salespeople selling the same thing, okay, Same price points, you know, same prospects using the same script. How do they get completely different results?
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B
I could never figure it out, and most people couldn't.
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A
It's. They're doing the same thing, but it's how they're asking the questions. It's how they're coming across, triggering their nervous system, getting them to let their guard down. Because I can say the same things on a script, but I can get a completely different result based on my tonality. That's a whole nother story. But going back to the Tony Robbins, so what I started to learn is that there's this emotional connection that has to happen. Okay? And I remember when I got into TO and I started mastering that on the doors, like, I Never had people that slammed the door in my face because I knew how to get them to let their guard down really, really quickly. Okay, Disarming techniques. And so when I got into B2B Enterprise you're talking about, I went from selling consumers. You get a free alarm system, you pay a hundred dollars to get it activated, and then you pay like, you know, 50 or 60 bucks a month to then, like, I'm calling, you know, Fortune 1000 companies, you know, and I'm closing, like, $5 million deals. So it was a different ball game, but the. The principles were the same to me. So any industry I sold in, all I needed to know were the answers to these questions. So I'd go in, I'd get interviewed by the VP of sales or the chief sales officer, and it would be like, what. What are the prospect's problems that you talk to? What are their five top problems that your thing solves? Okay, so I got that. I know what those are. Then I need to understand what are the consequences to the prospect if those don't get solved? And then I need to understand how does your solution solve those? Once I understood those three things, it's easy to write the questions you need to ask for that industry. Now, I'm a big believer in scripts, but more like a framework. Right? So, like, you know, Hollywood actors and actresses, everything they say is 100 scripted.
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B
Of course.
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A
But does it sound scripted? No, no, exactly. Because their body language and their tonality and their facial expressions. Okay, so you have to have a sales script, a FR framework, but you're not sitting there reading the script like a monotone robot, because that's going to sound awkward, Right? So you've got to be able to know the psychology behind why you're asking these questions in the first place. That way, when the prospect answers your questions, you have to immediately know how to tweak the next questions based off their answers. And if you don't, they don't feel like you understand them. And if they don't feel like you understand them, they're going to stay surface level. They're not going to buy. So Tony Robbins talks a lot about this. This emotional connection. I like to take it a. In order to influence at the highest level, you have to master how to emotionally connect with that human being, whether you're selling one to one or one to, you know, eight decision makers or one to a thousand on a stage where they feel like you understand their needs or desires, even their fears, without buying into their story. Okay, now what. What's Prospect stories. I need to think it over. That's a story. We don't have the funding now. That's a story. So I can't buy into that story, because if I buy into that story, I offer them no value because I. They don't buy. I don't solve their problems. I don't get them where they want to go. But I have to emotionally connect with them. And I remember when I got into B2B, they're like, you don't understand, Jeremy. Like, you know, these prospects, they just want facts. You know, you're talking to their finance teams, just figures. And I'm like, oh, okay. So what you're saying is you guys haven't learned yet how to get them to let their guard down where they feel comfortable enough to open up to you and tell you what the real problems are.
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B
If you think about everyone you're selling to, at the end of the day, they're all humans. They're all worried about keeping their job, impressing their boss, getting a bonus, getting a raise, getting a promotion. And anything they're buying from you, in theory, can accomplish that to some degree. So how do you tie back into what they care about? And also, it's interesting, when I was in sales, we kind of, at a surface level, knew that if you actually solved the person problems, they would champion you to solve the company problems. But to shorten the sales cycle, it was always about finding intent. So it was always about finding somebody that was already looking for your solution as opposed to going in cold. I've never heard of using, like, a human connection to shorten a sales cycle, which makes. It makes a ton of sense when you think about it like that. Because we were always told just like, if you focus on properly qualifying the leads.
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A
God.
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B
But you're laughing because.
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A
Don't tell me they taught you Bant.
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B
Yes.
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A
Oh, God. So here's my problem, because they try to teach me Bant. When I got into B2B, and I'm like, I saw so many holes through that. I'm like, you're asking them what their budget is in the first five minutes of a conversation before they even know what the real problems are, how they know what their budget is. For some things, they don't even know what needs to be solved. Like, you're, You're. You're really suggesting that these prospects understand what their real problems are when you first start talking to them? Unlikely. Nobody does. They might understand that they have, like, one problem. And that's the problem with, with, with most sales Training is they'll teach you like the prospect tells you a problem and then they start selling to that problem. But the thing is, is I. Prospects don't, don't know what they need, right? It's like, it's like an analogy of, you know, you have this like crazy ass headache one morning, bad migraine, and you're like, I need some medication, I have a headache. And you go to the urgent care and they're like, you know, they, they don't ask you any questions. They're like, here, just go take this. Right? How do you know that it's actually solving anything? But instead you go to a different doctor and she starts asking you some questions about the pain and where you feel the pain and, and how long you felt the pain and what the pain's preventing you from being able to do. And suddenly her questions start to get you to internalize it. You might have a much bigger problem than you originally thought you had the headache. Then she suggests you might want to do a CAT scan and it comes back, you have a tumor and it's terminal and you got two weeks to live. So see, now you start to understand what your real problems are. Okay. But most salespeople, I'll give you an example. There's one of our, our newer clients that I went and did a workshop for them a couple weeks ago out in California. They're a big precious metals dealer, like gold and silver. And their salespeople, like a prospect would, would come in and most of their prospects are usually a little bit older, you know, 50s, 60s. They're like Armageddon, you know, the skies, you know, then the world is ending. Maybe it is those people that buy. I need to protect everything with gold. Yeah. And so their big thing is they would come in and they said, well, hey, what, what's caused you to look at, at precious Met first question and like, well, I want to hedge against inflation. And then like, well, let me show you how we do that. So they give them a problem and they sell that problem. I'm like, well, what happens though, if they go home that night and they turn on Fox News? And Fox is like, inflation's going down. The new president's doing a really good job. The new administration's getting everything down. Well now they're like, well, maybe I don't need gold because inflation's going down. And then you lost the deal because you try to sell to one problem. But I want to build a huge gap. I don't want to help them find just this one problem. They think they have. I want to help them find two or three or four or five other problems they didn't realize they had. Now the gap's so big that even if they go in and turn on the TV and it says inflation's going down, there's five other reasons why they want to change. They're still buying. That's the difference.
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B
What would be the strategy for B2B or B2C to start to uncover those things outside of building true rapport? Not like surface level.
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A
It's. It's not just how you. It's. It's how you frame the questions, and it's how you ask them, your tone that's going to determine if you see doubt or not in their process. Because if I'm like, what's some. Some surface level consultative questions, can you tell me some of your challenges, Mr. Prospect? Can you tell me two problems that keep you awake at night? Can you. Can you tell me some issues you're having? Your prospects know where those questions lead, right? Every. Especially in B2B, Every. Every company asks like the same generic surface level questions, right? And so that's why most of them give you vague, generalized surface level answers back. So I just need to reframe that question. And I might say, so you've, you've been with XYZ company the last four years. I mean, what's caused you to feel like you might want to look at someone else? See, rather than me saying, what are your challenges? See how I reframed? I'm basically asked that same question, but I reframed it a different way. And the prospect doesn't recognize that pattern. See, our brains as human beings, we recognize patterns. And so if you ask the same type of questions that most salespeople are asking them, they recognize the pattern, and that's why they stay service level. But with the way I frame that question, and I would probably make it more specific, depending on who I'm talking to, what I'm selling. That's a generic version. So you've been with XYZ company the last five years. I mean, they're fairly decent. I mean, what's caused you to feel like you might want to look at something else? Well, you know, we like them, but. And now they start to tell me what they don't like because of how I frame that question. They're not used to the pattern. That makes sense.
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B
It makes a ton of sense. But you're also very purposeful with your tonality and your inflection and your pauses. So.
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A
And In a real sales situation, it's going to be a little bit different. There I'm kind of telling everybody what to do and exaggerating that. But your tone is there to see doubt with what they have or don't have, that triggers their nervous system to be like, oh, maybe we don't. Maybe we do have a problem with that. But I can see that with my doubt. There's five types of tonalities you have to master if you want to be top 1% in sales. Influence, persuasion. You got to master the curious tone. Let's say if I market agency. So walk me through. What do you guys do to generate new leads and clients? Now that's a curious tone. There's a confused tone. Now why would I use a confused tone? I'm not saying you've got dementia confused, like, oh, I don't know how this thing works. But let's say if a prospect says something like, oh, gosh, I'm feeling so much pressure with this XYZ problem. Pressure. Or oh, how, how do you mean by pressure? See, I'm confused. Now what that does subconsciously is their brain immediately says to them, oh, he didn't understand what I meant by that. I need to explain that better. And you see how now they start to open up. Well, what I mean by pressure is. And that they start to tell. You see, the. The two biggest emotional drivers that causes a human being to want to change are pain and the fear of future pain. Pleasure is a distant third. Okay. Most people don't just change because they want like something cool. It's pain of their current state or past history. And then getting them to feel a fear that this pain is going to keep going or could happen in the future. And that causes them to feel urgency to want to do something about it and change. That's how I could speed of my sales cycles. Right? Then you have like a challenging tone. You know, I'm not going to do that in the first part of the conversation because I don't have much trust or credibility. But later on I can challenge him or something. What happens if this doesn't actually get solved? Okay, that's generic. And then I have a concern tone, a tone that shows empathy. What's really holding you back? What's really holding you back, John? You know, if they're not moving forward and then I have a playful tone, right? Let's say if I sold life insurance and you know, that's a, that's an industry where the, the male will be like, oh, I don't know, I'll just, you know, I'll just let my wife, you know, she'll have to deal that with her new husband that she marries, you know, and they kind of blow off like, it's like an objection. So how am I going to get that prospect to lower their guard? I might lean and be like, what's going on, man? Is she already looking to replace you or what's going on over there, man? Oh, no, she's not looking to replace me. Well, I don't want you sleeping on the couch tonight if she heard you say that. In all seriousness, though, how many months would she be able to pay for the house without your income? See, the tone shift.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So.
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B
But you make real tone.
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A
And then I go into, like, that serious, like, I'm concerned for you tone. Because I am. Remember, I'm doing it for them. Not to them, but the playful tone that gets them to laugh, I'm doing that for. I'm doing that to disarm them because it releases dopamine in their brain. It's a disarm. It just disarms them. Their guard comes down. Right. And remember, I'm not doing that to them. I'm doing it for them. Because if I can't get them to let their guard down, they don't become open to what I'm offering, and I'm the one that's there to solve their problems.
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B
You know, when I think about sort of your methodology, you combine the behavioral with the. The very, very tactical. But if you look at other. You mentioned Tony Robbins. I know you've spoken about NLP before. You're talking about tonality and pausing. What other behavioral components or psychological components are valid? And is there any validity in NLP or any of these other.
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A
Yeah, for sure.
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B
But what is it? What's.
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A
Not a lot of that is used for more stage selling. But it's. See, a lot of people, like, they get this concept that if I say the words, it should work, but it's not necessarily how you say it, it's how you say the words, the tonality. So NEPQ is my methodology. The N stands for neuro, which stands for nervous system. Okay. So if I. If I trigger the prospects, you know, into fight or flight mode, their nervous system is up, their guard is up. So the N stands for nervous system. E, emotional connection. Okay. If I can't connect with them emotionally, where they feel like I understand them more than their best friend, you know, I'm at a disadvantage. So how do I do that? Okay. It's the tonality. It's my body language. It's even my facial expressions. Because your facial expressions, I always say, are the remote control to your this thing called your tone. Try having a confused tone with a straight face. Be really hard to do that, right? So you can't do that. So even if I'm on the phone and they can't see me, does my body language affect this? Yeah, it does. Because if I'm just sitting there in the chair or I'm standing up like motionless when I'm talking, I'm going to sound more like a monotone robot. I always say monotone body language equals monotone tonality. And so many salespeople do that, especially if they cold call because they just sit there. It's like they sound like telemarketers. You know, the P stands for persuasion and the Q stands for questioning. So any methodology that has to do with the emotional connection, the nervous system, like nlp. Tony Robbins teaches a lot about this. I don't, I can't remember his methodology, what it's called. Those type of things are going to influence the prospects and get them into an emotional state, a buying state.
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B
NetSuite is a success story partner now, what does the future hold for business? If you ask nine experts, you're going to get 10 answers. Bull market. Bear market. Rates will rise. Rates will fall. Honestly, I just wish somebody would invent a crystal ball. But until then, over 41,000 businesses have future proof their business with NetSuite by Oracle. The number one Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one fluid dynamic platform. With real time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. And when you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next. If I had needed this product, this is what I would use. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. And speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning. The guide is free. That's netsuite.com Scott Clary indeed is a success story partner. Now say you just realized your business needed to hire someone fast. How can you find amazing candidates fast? It's easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites. Indeed, Sponsor Jobs helps you stand out and hire fast. And with sponsor jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster and it makes a huge difference. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Plus with Indeed sponsored jobs, there's no monthly subscription, no long term contracts. You only pay for results. There's no need to wait any longer. So speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a 75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility, just go to indeed.comclary right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com Clary terms and conditions apply. If you're hiring, Indeed is all you need. So I've always. I, I remember, I can't remember who told me this. It was one of my. It was one of the people that hired me and I was really young and he said a salesperson either has to be really good at cold calling or be really good at closing. But they can't be, they can't be the relationship builder in between because that's not useful to me. And that just stuck in my head. It's like, it's like you have to be either really good at getting somebody to have a conversation who you never spoken to or taking them over the finish line at the end. That was the thought process.
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A
That's a, that's a jacked up thought process.
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B
It is a jacked up thought process.
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A
Transactional selling. It was all closing starts from the very first words out of your mouth.
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B
So this is my question, because from the world that I came from, the person who closes is the account manager and the sdr. Yeah. It's not even the same person. So. But regardless.
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A
Well, the SDR is closing them on the appointment.
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B
Yes.
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A
It's just a mini close.
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B
Mini close.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So for the first call for, to open up the, the relationship in the conversation, how do you disarm when the person's never heard of you before?
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A
It's. Well, it's all in your tonality. So. Most salespeople that cold call have been taught to do a couple of different things. There's the approach of. Hey, is this George? Hey, George. It's Jeremy Miner with XYZ company. Hey, listen, the reason why I called you was. That's one approach. Or. Hey, is this George? Hey, George. Hey. Hey, nice to meet you. This is a cold call. I just wanted to let you know this is a cold call. Can I have like 20 seconds of your time? And if what I say doesn't resonate, we'll just hang up the phone. That's like the second approach. Those typically are the two approaches or some modification. I would say the second approach is a little bit better than the first. But you're still gonna play the numbers game. Cause staying it's a cold call. Especially how you say that doesn't really work that well with most people. Okay. So remember, what's the first thing I have to do? I have to get them to let their guard down. I have to interrupt their pattern. Because remember, human beings, we recognize patterns instantly. Okay. We recognize patterns in your voice. So most salespeople sound one of three tones. They sound really, really excited, like, hey, how's it going? I'm really, you know, too enthusiastic. What's that going to do? That's going to trigger sales resistance. Okay. Because everybody recognizes that pattern. Or I'm going to sound like a telemarketer and I'm going to sound monotone when I talk to, like this, like I'm reading from a script, which instantly is going to trigger you because you're used to telemarketing calls. Or I'm going to sound really timid, like I'm nervous, right? And when I'm nervous on the phone, you're triggering their nervous system to not trust you. Because if you're nervous, that means you're hiding something. That makes sense. So when I come in, I want them to. I want. I have to use a familiar tone. Okay. You ever get a call from somebody like, hey, it's. It's Amy. Amy Smith. How are you? Would you say, who is this? Or you'd be like, I'm good, how are you?
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B
I would be confused. I think I know her.
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A
Yeah, your brain is like, who's Amy Smith? How do I know Amy Smith? See, she's just bought time now because she sounds familiar. Okay. So that's a pattern. Rubbed. Okay. So usually I would be holding, you know, papers or some type of papers when you're calling. Because you're like holding the papers like you're going through them because you're interrupting the pattern. They're not used to that. Like they're hearing a sound on the telephone. Okay. I stumbled into that approach when I got into Enterprise. I remember holding papers one day, like just going through something and like, the prospects seemed like to stay on way longer, but it was just noise. It was like interrupt because they're just.
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B
Thinking about what, what I'm holding.
- [29:15]
A
What am I holding about them. So most salespeople, they do this mistake, like, hey, is this George or Hey, is this Amy? That implies that you don't know them because you would hear their. You would recognize their voice. So right when the prospect answers, I'm like, john, hey, it's. It's James. James Taylor with XYZ Company. I'm holding a copy of your blank. I was wondering if you could possibly help me out for a moment. Now, depending on the industry would depend on what I'm holding. Okay. If I'm. Let's say if I'm a real estate agent calling on expired listings. Yeah, I'm holding a copy of some old listings on your home at 55 Willow Lane. Was wondering if you could help me out for a moment. Let's say if I sold. Oh, let's say I have a marketing agency. I wouldn't say I'm holding something. I might say, yeah, I'm looking at one of your. Your last VSLs, and on page four where you were talking about XYZ, I was wondering if you could help me out for a moment. So all I'm doing is triggering curiosity. Okay. That's all I'm doing. I'm using the familiar tone there. Yeah, it's James. James Taylor. See the upward inflection? That's a familiar tone. All I'm doing is buying time because now their brain is. Who's James Taylor? How do I know James Taylor? They sound familiar. So their guard starts to come down, okay. And then instantly give me. Give me some type of SaaS thing. What got to be holding. What did you sell before in SaaS? What was the product?
- [30:44]
B
The first product I ever sell was voip.
- [30:46]
A
Okay.
- [30:47]
B
Voip voiceover ip.
- [30:48]
A
Yeah. So that's kind of out of the picture.
- [30:50]
B
It is out of the picture. Now I'm trying to think.
- [30:52]
A
Give me something new.
- [30:54]
B
Well, the last company was broadcast software. Okay, so what we did.
- [30:58]
A
What could they be holding in their hand that could trigger some curiosity? See, if I would. To chat gdp. I could be like, I sell, you know, voice broadcasting. What are two or three problems that I could print off a document, you know, about that company. That would trigger curiosity. Not testimonials, not white papers. That doesn't trigger curiosity. Something that, you know, let's say if I'm a commercial. If I'm selling commercial insurance to you.
- [31:25]
B
Could say I time. I was looking at a transcript of your last broadcast, and we were looking at some of the. The commercial breaks, and I was looking.
- [31:32]
A
I was looking at some transcripts from a couple of your last broadcasts. I was wondering if you could possibly help me out for A moment. Yeah. See how they're like. They're like, what do you mean broadcast? Or how do you mean?
- [31:42]
B
They think like, what the hell happened.
- [31:44]
A
In our last broadcast, triggering curiosity instantly. Okay. Rather than. Hi, my name is. I'm with XV8. The reason why I called west doesn't work now.
- [31:52]
B
They're stressed out. They're stressed out, but not at you. They're stressed out that they screwed up.
- [31:56]
A
Yes. And then I would say, yeah, I'm not even sure if it makes sense for us to talk. So I'm pushing them away now. Remember my first job, I have zero trust credibility with this person. They don't know who I am. My first job is to get them let their guard down. So then it's then like, yeah, I'm not even sure if it makes sense for us to talk. I called to see who would be responsible for, like, looking at any possible hidden gaps in your what in your blank that could be causing you guys to blank consequence. So let's go back to the broadcast. Any possible hidden gaps. Gaps in your podcasting. I need something. What would you.
- [32:32]
B
Oh, so I would say, well, if.
- [32:34]
A
Any hidden gaps in your what in your.
- [32:36]
B
In your advertising and sponsorship.
- [32:38]
A
In your advertising and. And. And some of your sponsorships that could be causing you guys to lose revenue that you could be making. Who should I be talking to about that? That could be Sam neutral. That could be causing you guys to lose, like, revenue every month. Who should I be talking to? You see, all I'm doing is triggering curiosity there. Okay. I'm triggering engagement completely. I'm interrupting the pattern of the familiar tone. So everything I did there is layered. So what we teach when we teach companies a cold call is we have them go to chat gtp and, you know, I sell this. The problems I solve are this, this, and this. What could I print off that would trigger this prospect to, you know, be curious when I called? And it'll. ChatGPT will give them like 50 different things. Now, some of them are crap. They'll be like Pearl of testimonials. No, that's. They don't care about your testimonies. They don't know who you are.
- [33:29]
B
Yeah, but that alone would that. So all the things that I just mentioned, like, we would bring those up in the sales conversations already, but basically, the software, it put lower thirds on. It allowed people to put lower thirds little. Little bars on the bottom of their screen and interact with their viewers. But then also there's room for sponsorship.
- [33:47]
A
Yeah.
- [33:47]
B
And they can make more money that way.
- [33:48]
A
That was like one of the thing.
- [33:50]
B
Yeah.
- [33:50]
A
Okay. So, yeah, so ChatGPT will give you some different ideas. Now some of them, like I said, are not good, but it's, it's just interesting how easy cold calling becomes when you learn how to get them to let their guard down. And they might even come back and say, well, you know, we already have something for that. I, I figured if. I figured you did. And just so you know, I'm not quite sure we can even help you. You. Yeah, see now I'm gonna, I'm. They don't know what to do with that pattern because most of them like, oh well, they're a good company but people always come to us because like they just start arguing like it's over. So I'm like, oh yeah. And just so you know, I'm not quite sure we can even help you. You know, we'd have to know more about X and Y and Z and kind of the results you're getting from that because maybe you're better off staying with who you already have. Who do you guys actually use? And then I'm back into the conversation. So I'm. All I'm doing is I'm getting them to let their guard down. I'm deframing them and I'm starting to reframe them into new belief systems.
- [34:43]
B
And I think that I just want to sort of reiterate how forget how powerful this idea is, but also the fact that in like 30 seconds I can think of maybe a kind of a half assed way to build my product into this system. When Software for broadcasters complete SaaS product is probably not the easiest thing to print off stuff to mess around. But the point is if you put like a second of thought with chat.
- [35:10]
A
Yeah, it's not hard.
- [35:11]
B
You'll figure out something that you can use for your industry.
- [35:14]
A
We do this. I mean we. There's a. According to Forbes, there's 163 different verticals in the world now. There's subcategories of all each of those. Like home improvement would be like cabinets, doors, windows, siding, awnings, you know, carpet. You know, there's 75 things. We train every industry at this point. And so you know, with Chad gp you literally like you can find papers like, you know, life insurance if it's, you know, it could be solar, it could, it's anything like it's more on the B2B side. Your coal. You don't cold call as much on two consumers. You do a little bit, but most cold Calling is on the.
- [35:51]
B
Tell me this couldn't work. If you walked up to somebody's door and you had some papers in your hand and you're selling solar or alarm system for.
- [35:57]
A
Oh, sure, it's interrupting the pattern thousand percent.
- [36:00]
B
They're going to be like, wait, what the hell you got in here?
- [36:01]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm holding a copy of your neighbor's, like, utility bills. I wonder if you could help me out for a moment. We. We teach the door approach a little bit different with solar. You know, if they're on the doors. You know, most were like, you know, hey, are you the homeowner here? Great. Hey, how you doing today? And they're like, I'm good. What's this all about? Like, you're instantly triggering resistance that. Because they know you're genuinely not interested in how they damage the door. Yeah. So sometimes you got to stand back and act, like, confused, like you can't hear them. And as they come to the door, you know, you. I would always lean in and I'd be like, yeah, are you guys the property owners here? Like, something was wrong or like. And I, you know, there's a whole lot with interrupting the pattern in door to door. Like, I used wear. I. I think a lot of people are doing this now because they've heard me say it on, you know, social media. But I, like, you're talking 22 years ago, I would wear a construction vest, like the orange ones or the lime green ones. And I'd have, like, a tape measure here. Right. You know, because you got to measure where the alarm system's going to go. And then I'd have like, you know, old grandpa, like, New Balance white shoes, you know, you know, the. The ID badge that all the daughter salespeople wear here. I'm like, why would you wear that? You might as well just put on your head. I'm a salesperson. That's what that means. Like, everybody knows if you have an ID that you're trying to sell them. So I would just put in my pocket. I'm like, I don't understand. Like, what are we doing here? It always weird. And I'd have, like. I'd have, like, leather gloves, like, tied there to the keychain. So they did. They thought, like. And I'd have like a. Like a. One of those metal clipboards with the contracts in it. Like, literally when people came to the door, they didn't know it was good. A. Was a. If I was a construction worker, they didn't know if I was like, Reading the meter. So their guard was already down. Yeah, it's, you know, it's not hard to, I mean for. Well, I don't know. To me it's like this is so easy. So yeah, you gotta be trained.
- [37:50]
B
Explain something to me why everything you're saying makes sense in enterprise? I think they're a little bit better than average. I think that some of the most like bleeding edge enterprise companies, they probably bring in guys like you to teach.
- [38:05]
A
It depends. Most of them have internal sales training and it really depends on the company.
- [38:12]
B
If I was going to rank sales training, I'd put you like at the top. Everything you're saying makes tons of sense. I put you at the top. And then I would think that the things that I had learned in my career like the Challenger is not bad. Still better than like car salesman abc. But that ABC still exists. And some of the people in the media are very big sales trainers that sort of push this abc. And I don't understand, first of all, I don't understand how it's effective in 2025.
- [38:44]
A
It's a, it's a numbers game. It's like playing golf. You hit one really good shot.
- [38:48]
B
Yeah.
- [38:48]
A
And you get this, this, this adrenaline rush.
- [38:51]
B
Yeah.
- [38:51]
A
It's the same thing in sales. You, you suck. Like that are 17 holes and then you make that one sale. So you're like, it's a numbers game. And you keep this like. You see the thing, I mean the reason why we have grown so rapidly, like we just got ranked as the largest business to consumer sales training company in the world based on, based on annual revenues. Not, not Grandma saying it. Fourth largest in the B2B space. And I started five and a half years ago. But the reason why is simply because it's, it's a different viewpoint of what selling actually is. It's a. It's almost like a new opportunity in a sense of. It's not like everything else is. Now there's probably some aspects. Right. But my, the, the way the methodology is is like I'm getting their nervous system to let their guard down. Most. If you went to like sales training from anybody, they wouldn't know what the nervous system does. Right. I'm emotionally connecting with them because I understand the psychology behind each stage of the questions. And whatever they tell me, I can instantly tweak the next questions based off what they say because I understand the psychology behind it. Now I do believe in scripts and frameworks. I think you need a framework to follow, but you can't. You've Got to be able to know how to tweak the next question. So based off what they tell you, otherwise you're going to sound scripted. You know, you sound like a robot.
- [40:17]
B
Yeah. Sales isn't something that you're born with. You can train anybody to become a salesperson.
- [40:23]
A
And unless you are born with advanced questioning skills out of your mother's womb. Yes. Or, you know, are you born with advanced tonality skills or advanced objection handling or prevention skills? No, those are acquired skills. Like nobody is born a. The, the natural born salesperson. I think a lot of people think that if you're born and you like.
- [40:43]
B
To talk a lot, the gift of.
- [40:45]
A
The gap is the, the problem with that is that most salespeople that talk a lot are pretty much average because you just talking is not selling like, you know, the adage telling is not selling like, you know, a lot of sales trainer be like, you should, you know, they should be talking 70% of the time. You should be talking 30. I'm going to say it's probably 90, 10. Like when I was in sales calls or you know, sales appointments in person or virtually whatever, they didn't really know anything about me. They're probably talking 95% of the time. But I controlled the whole frame of that conversation. Where people like to talk about themselves. Right. But you have to control that conversation where they feel like they're in control but you're really facilitating the whole thing. They don't even feel like they're talking to a salesperson. That's when you start to master sales. When they don't even feel like they're. When they feel like you are doing them a favor by allowing them to pay you to solve their problems. That's when you're starting to get good at influence.
- [41:45]
B
Have you looked at some of these tools that like measure the top like gong and stuff like that? Have you looked at some of these?
- [41:50]
A
We have. We've actually met the CEO Gong.
- [41:52]
B
What are the, what's the data?
- [41:53]
A
The like gong in the, in these platforms have reached out to us to, to do some stuff. So we're actually in negotiations with two of them right now. Yeah. Because most of them just have like a clunky thing like oh, you know, you know, because the AI will like, well, because.
- [42:09]
B
So I think about gong because it measures talk time and it's supposed to show like, well, hey listen, sales rep, you were talking way too much. And we know statistically if you speak for less than 10% of the conversation.
- [42:21]
A
That'S a good start. But it doesn't really show that. See, that's. It's just too generic. Like you need to talk less. Okay, thanks for the tips there. You know, like, what do I say though? So we are developing a SaaS AI platform with two different companies right now that actually reads the tonality of the salesperson based off what I train. It reads the tonality of the prospect in real time. So if you're on the phone or virtually in real time, it will tell you your prospect here sounds uncertain. You need to ask this question now. Like, literally, it's basically like a chat GTP with my brain. So we've already crammed like 35, 000 plus hours of my training into it. And so it's already reading my mind and we'll keep doing that. So this is going to be launching in 2025.
- [43:15]
B
Very cool.
- [43:15]
A
It's really cool.
- [43:16]
B
That's very exciting. I did not have that when I started it.
- [43:18]
A
Very excited. I know, I'm like, good lord. But it won't be like a chat GDP where it just answers it and type. It'll actually pull up, you know, prompt or something. Pull up like a training. Like I sell, you know, I sell it consulting to these type of companies. What would Jeremy say and what tonality would he use when he called this type of C level executive to get them to let their guard down in the first 30 seconds? And then it will pull up training. I've already done on that. Or basically read my mind and my avatar pulls up like me pulls up. Not just like words because you can't, you can't master sound by reading words. It's like you're trying to master anything by reading books. You can never master anything by reading books. Can you imagine a neurosurgeon master brain surgery by reading book? No. No. I'll give you an interesting thing about the brain. What's your favorite song? Like if I said, hey, what's your favorite song that you could pretty much sing word for word down the road. You're cruising. You know, I could.
- [44:18]
B
There's always like, I could do. I could do too. I could do like something by Biggie or I could do like Hotel California.
- [44:24]
A
Okay, so let's say Hotel California. Okay. Sing that song. You know every single word. The average song has about 330, 330 words on average. What's your favorite book?
- [44:35]
B
Favorite book?
- [44:36]
A
Most favorite book you've ever read. You might have read it multiple times.
- [44:41]
B
I would say, I would say Atomic habits.
- [44:43]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [44:44]
B
I like that book.
- [44:44]
A
That's A great book. Average book has about 330 words on one page. Average song has about 330 words in the song. Can you tell me one page you could cite word for word in that book?
- [45:00]
B
No.
- [45:02]
A
Yet you can cite a song that has the same amount of words. Why?
- [45:06]
B
I don't know.
- [45:06]
A
Because your brain recognizes patterns and your brain can retain the melody and tonality of the song. That's what your brain remembers, the tonality and the melody. Your brain can't remember the words in a book. You're just words. There's no melody or tone. Does that make sense?
- [45:24]
B
That makes a ton of sense. But that's wild.
- [45:26]
A
You can never master anything from reading books because you can't remember it. Within two days of reading a book, your brain retains 19% within one week, less than 9% within one month, 2.7 to 2.9%. You can't retain anything from reading books. That's why when you get trained, you have to get trained. You know, you know, video training, you know, helps you retain because you hear, you can see, you can hear, you pick up the nuances in person. Stuff is good if you can go back and watch it several times. But you'll never master sales percentage influence by reading books. But books are like an overview. Like it's just starting you on that journey, but you're still dabbling if you're just reading books.
- [46:06]
B
I just want to take a second and thank Cornbread Hemp for supporting today's episode. Now, Cornbread Hemp CBD gummies have been this really nice addition to my wellness toolkit. I don't use them every day, just when I want to unwind after those extra busy weeks. But they're perfect for those moments when you want to take the edge off and just find your balance. Really just shut off from work. What makes them special is how cornbread Hemp crafts them. They only use a flower of USDA organic hemp plants. That's the best part for the purest, most potent experience. No fillers, no artificial fluff, just clean full spectrum goodness in delicious watermelon, berry and peach flavor. I keep them in my nightstand for those moments when I just need a little extra help relaxing. And I love how transparent they are too. Every batch is third party lab tested so you know exactly what you're getting. And they put together a special offer for all success story podcast listeners. All listeners can save 30% off their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com success and use code success at checkout. That's cornbreadhemp.com success code success for 30 off your first order of these amazing gummies, the HubSpot Podcast Network is a success story partner. Now, if you like success story, you're going to love other podcasts in the HubSpot Podcast network. One of my personal favorites is I Digress, hosted by my boy, Troy Sandage. Each show is under 30 minutes. I digress helps eliminate complexity, complications and confusion in your business with frameworks and strategies to achieve true, scalable and sustainable success. If you're an entrepreneur building anything you need to listen to I Digress. This is one of the most useful business podcasts, trust me. Go do yourself a favor and listen to I Digress wherever you get your podcasts. So if you do want to actually take something and really imprint it so that you learn it well, what is it? A combination of everything? Is there, is there one way to learn it that's better than others?
- [47:53]
A
I think video training is really, really good because you constantly have it, but you don't need to get up three in the morning. Like our, you know, we have 37, 39 different sales training programs. Our, our core program is like a 51 hour course, like video training for me, like, you know, all the, the NEPQ process, role playing, all that kind of stuff. And then we have trainers that have, you know, virtual training calls with, you know, big groups of sometimes thousands to smaller groups depending on how much they pay for the different training stuff to reinforce the learning. A lot of it's reinforcement, right? The role playing, the practicing, the rehearsing, like it's, it's like being an actor, actress, like you got to rehearse this stuff, right? The reason why Leonardo DiCaprio or, you know, Julia Roberts get paid $25 million of film is they just, they rehearse a craft. They just, they have invested more money in their craft. They've hired better acting coaches, tonality coaches. That's why they're ahead of anybody else. You know, it's just, it's look, your number. What's the number one thing that's going to determine how much you get paid if you're a salesperson, your skill level, you might want to invest some money into your skill level if you're in sales. Just saying, right? I mean, so many salespeople, they just get in there, they just kind of, you know, I call those wingers. Yeah, I always. Well, can I say this? There's four types of salespeople. You mean, you should tell everybody. And I think there's four types of people in life. And I'm going to go over this. The first type of salesperson, I call them the wingers. They wing everything. So every prospect they talk to, they say something different. They have no process. They don't know why somebody buys or doesn't buy from them. And when they don't sell a lot, who do they typically blame?
- [49:40]
B
The customer, leads, the process.
- [49:42]
A
My leads are all broke. Yeah, prospects are all mean. They never blame their lack of skill level. Right. Where do most of those salespeople go? They eventually get fired. Those are the wingers. Then you have the dabblers. Dabblers are ones who buy a few sales books every year. They go to a free event. They maybe they follow me or some other sales trainer on IG or YouTube, like the, the basic, you know, free content. And, and they just believe, like, hey, you know, if I just get enough reps, if I just stay in long enough, eventually I'll get good at this. That, you know, that takes years if not decades. Right. And that's where most salespeople are. They're just average. If they ever get good, it's because they play the numbers game. They work 12 to 14 hours a day, numbers game approach, and they eventually burn out. Okay, Now I'm not saying anybody on here is a dabbler. And then you have those who are the no dollars they initially invested in sales training. Maybe they get up to multiple six figures a year. Then they get good and they start getting a big head, big ego. They stop investing in their skill level, they stop training, and then their income gets capped. Right. And then you have those who are committed to mastery, Right. They're investing in sales training all of the time because they know the thing that's going to determine how much they make is their skill level. Right. So their learning curve is 100x faster. They're not learning from their mistakes. They learn from other people's mistakes so they don't make the same mistakes themselves. And that's why they're in the top 1%. Now think about anything in life, any type of profession. Okay? You got the wingers. Dabblers know it all. Committed master. Who's your favorite athlete? Like pro athlete? Oh, you tell me. Somebody in hockey.
- [51:30]
B
I mean, my growing up. Yeah, I was, was, I was raised in, I was born in Toronto, raised in Ottawa. So I was a sens fan.
- [51:36]
A
Yes.
- [51:37]
B
I was like Alfredson.
- [51:38]
A
Okay.
- [51:38]
B
He was a great, great captain.
- [51:40]
A
Look at that guy. Was he a winger dabbler, know it all or committed mastery? Not even Tom Brady.
- [51:46]
B
Yeah. LeBron master.
- [51:48]
A
Serena Williams, Winger, dabbler. Who's your favorite, like business leader or thought leader?
- [51:53]
B
Seth Goden.
- [51:54]
A
Okay. Seth Goden. Winger, dabbler, master. Committed to the S degree. Yeah. Okay. Top psychologists, top doctors, top attorneys, top parents, top bishops of churches, top anything. Wingers, dabblers. No dollars. Committed. See, there's something to this thing called commitment to mastery. So that's just life. So you just have to decide, am I going to keep dabbling in sales? Do I think I know everything? Am I just going to wing it, hope and pray it works out, or am I going to commit to mastering this? Now, you can't commit to mastery unless you a plan. You can't commit to mastery unless you're trained by someone who's already mastered the thing you've mastered. Because a lot of people say, oh, I'm committed to mastery. But that's like somebody saying, like, oh, I'm committed to losing £75 a year. Then in January, they go to the gym, they don't have any plan, no trainer, and they walk around to different weight machines. They don't really know what, what's the best one to do. They don't know their nutrition. They don't have somebody training them how to lose that weight that's mastered what they want to do, and that's why they're still dabbling. So commitment to mastery means that you are, you're, you're hiring people that have already mastered the thing you want to master, and you're, you're learning what not to do. And that's why you don't fail. I think the most, the reason why most people fail in anything is because you don't know what you don't know. And unless you have somebody there that's already mastered, it's like, like, you know, these, some of these coaching companies, like, we're going to teach you how to scale, and they've never scaled past, you know, 25 million themselves. And you're like, I want to scale to 250 million. How is somebody that's never scaled a company, 250 million going to train you how to scale to 250 million? They can't because they don't have the, the knowledge or experience. I always say, like, you can, you know, you can steal somebody's content, but you can never steal their experience. You can never steal their wisdom that made that content you. And you won't know it like they do. Right? You can steal anybody's content.
- [54:03]
B
For the novice, it's so difficult for them to Discern.
- [54:07]
A
Yeah.
- [54:07]
B
Who's real.
- [54:08]
A
Yeah.
- [54:08]
B
That's the issue. Because there are people that are experience.
- [54:11]
A
You always look at the experience like, you know, like it's just funny. Like, you know, we've had a, we have like, I don't know, close to 60 salespeople now. But you know, we had a, we had a, we've had about five or six different salespeople leave and start their own sales training companies. I'm like, you sold for one year, you did good and now you're a sales training company. Like you just don't have the experience or knowledge at. Or wisdom because you haven't been around in it. I had an 18 year sales career. You know, I was ranked in the reps. Yeah. Not only put in the reps, like I was, was ranked internationally 45th in the entire world. Selling anything from any industry. As far as income I made in that career. After 18 years of that experience of being that high level, I still thought like, is this really, how am I going to be able to do this? If you sell for a couple years or you do anything for a couple years, then you go start your own thing. You just don't have enough experience yet. You're kind of like good, but you're not a master at the craft. What do they say? It takes at least 10,000 hours to really start to master something and you're starting your own thing with 500 hours. Good luck for your clients. I feel bad for them.
- [55:23]
B
I feel bad for them too. But the world is full of people that want to speed run entrepreneurship and they just want to just, you know, I.
- [55:32]
A
Here's what I always tell somebody that wants to start their business. I'm like, you need to go work in that field for at least 10 years. At least 10 years. You need the experience, you need the wisdom. And that only comes with time. You go work for somebody for a year and start your own thing. You just don't have the wisdom or experience. You just don't. You can't buy that.
- [55:51]
B
You have to go through that universal idea you have to go across and not actually one of my favorite ideas is the, the cliche like 95% of businesses fail. If you put in the 10, 15, 20 years in an industry, you devote yourself to mastery. I am very confident that number may not inverse, but it gets very close to being a higher chance of success and failure.
- [56:15]
A
Well, what I always tell my kids because like dad, I want to go start this thing. I'm like, you're not ready. Like you don't have experience. I'm like, you need to go work in corporate America for at least 10 years and then we'll talk at least 10, maybe 15. You need experience, you need wisdom.
- [56:28]
B
You have a 20 year old on your team who made over 9100 in commission.
- [56:33]
A
Yeah.
- [56:33]
B
Okay, so what separates somebody like him from people that have decades of experience?
- [56:40]
A
Commitment to mastery.
- [56:42]
B
What does he do at 20?
- [56:43]
A
You can have, he's committed to mastery.
- [56:45]
B
What does that mean though? What's he, what's he day like?
- [56:47]
A
He went through training all the time. Like it was the same thing when I, when, when I was young. So like, you know, five minutes while I'm ironing my shirt, what am I listening to? Do stuff that's helping me learn how to sell more. What? 10 minutes while I'm eating my wheaties. 15 minutes to the chiropractor, 15 minutes back. 10 minutes to the gym. 10 minutes back. You know, 25 minutes while I drive to work, 25 minutes back. I just had an hour and 20 minutes of sales training that day. But see, most people, like, I don't have time to learn. Well, what do you listen to when you're driving around your car? Music. How much is that music making you every month? Nothing. Nothing. It's distracting you. You know, you want to listen to music. Listen on the weekends if you're in sales Monday through Friday, you should be listening to something that's going to help you somewhere. You got to stay in that mode.
- [57:32]
B
What would be the most toxic sales advice you've ever heard?
- [57:36]
A
Most toxic sales advice? It's a line.
- [57:40]
B
It's a lot of bad advice.
- [57:41]
A
I don't, I don't like when, when, and I get why people say it, but I don't like when people say buyers are liars. I'm like, they're only lying to you because you're triggering them to not want to open up to you. Like the salesperson is causing them to lie to you. Like you don't understand the reaction, you know, or you and I get why people say sales is a numbers game. I think if you keep instilling that into your reps heads though, they, they don't focus on increasing their skill level. And so they just like, well, it's just a numbers game. They just go through the motions. I, I, I call it a skills game. Imagine like, you know, Steph Curry, the three point champ, you know, shooting, you know, three pointers that go. It's just a numbers game. Just shoot as many times as you can. Eventually you'll Hit one, you know, he wouldn't have made his high school varsity team. Right. Seth knows that it's a skills game. That's why he's at, what, practicing every day. Why is he practicing every day? He's shooting like a thousand three pointers every day. He's focused on his technique, his elbow movements, his hips, his wrist movements. And that's why he's one of the best, because he knows it's a skills game, not just a numbers game.
- [58:49]
B
Listen, sales is such a beautiful. It's a beautiful skill, but a lot of people don't understand how to do it properly.
- [58:56]
A
They just, you got to commit to mastery. It's. It's all influence. It's all persuasion. I mean, everybody's in sales. Like, even if you don't have a sales job, you're still out selling, selling.
- [59:06]
B
Your startup to the first hire, selling to the investors, selling broccoli to your kid who doesn't want to eat.
- [59:11]
A
Yeah. If you're an attorney trying to convince your judge that your client's innocent, you're trying to persuade. You're trying to influence, you know, if you're a, you know, a politician trying to get people to vote for you, you're trying to persuade, influence. You're trying to move others to your way of thinking. Everything is in sales. Like, it's number one asset you have to master if you want to get ahead in life. I always, you know, I was on a podcast yesterday. It's like. Like Elon Musk, look at him for. For an example. It's not like he was the only person that had the concept of electrical cars, but the reason why his blew up is because he knew how to communicate it better. He knew how to frame it better to the audience. Jeffrey Bezos, not the only person had an idea of, like, Amazon on. He just knew how to frame it better. He knew how to communicate it better. So it's all about framing what you're selling. I go back to, like, it's every. In the prospect's mind, your product, your service kind of looks like the same as everybody else's. They don't know all that, you know, so it's how you frame that offer. So I'll give you this analogy. I was talking with my buddy Dan. Henry's a big Internet marketer, and he gave some ideas on this. Yeah, Dan, I just. I just had him on the show while ago. And so it's like having two family pictures. Like, you got your. Your family there. You're married. Maybe you got kids or Whatever. You get the family pictures there, same identical pictures. You go to the store and you buy two different frames. The first frame is like immaculate, like gold. Just. Just looks gorgeous, you know, setting up on that mantle. The second frame, you go to an antique store or flea market. It's kind of rough on the edges. Looks really old, kind of worn out. Got a few holes, nicks in it. Which picture are you going to pick up?
- [60:57]
B
The immaculate one.
- [60:58]
A
The immaculate one. It's the same picture, though. But the reason why you picked up that one is because it was framed better. It's the same with your solution or your offer. It's how you frame it that determines if they're going to buy or not. Over somebody else.
- [61:16]
B
So there was one podcast clip, clip that went viral. It was Jordan Belfor and Grant Cardone arguing.
- [61:22]
A
I heard about that.
- [61:22]
B
Did you see this?
- [61:23]
A
I watched some of it, yeah.
- [61:24]
B
Basically it was Grant Cardone saying that there's no is never a no. And Jordan Belfor, who is a sales guy, was like, I don't think that's right, dude. Like, I'm pretty sure sometimes.
- [61:36]
A
What was Grant stinking behind that? I don't know.
- [61:38]
B
He was saying that there's always a way to convince. Turn a no into a yes. And if somebody says no, then they're still a customer. And Jordan's like, no. There's a point where they're like, no longer a customer.
- [61:48]
A
But yeah, I mean, reality. There's reality. Not everybody's gonna buy no.
- [61:52]
B
But Grant was like, I'll find a way to close everybody. That was kind of the.
- [61:55]
A
Well, and I know that sounds cool, but yeah. Yeah.
- [61:59]
B
The point is you can talk about whatever you want to talk about. In regards to those two guys, I don't care. I think the more important thing for.
- [62:05]
A
Them, I don't know them. I'm sure they're amazing. You know, Grant's an amazing marketer. It looks like he does really, really well in real estate. Amazing marketer.
- [62:15]
B
Different sales methodologies.
- [62:16]
A
Yeah. Jordan has the straight line. He does talk a little bit about tone out air. Tonalities would be a little bit different. But I'm sure they're amazing. I just don't know them.
- [62:24]
B
But that wasn't my question. My question was, when is a no? And no?
- [62:27]
A
When is a no a no? Well, I can probably tell by their body language and their tonality.
- [62:33]
B
When do you. When do you walk away from it?
- [62:35]
A
If they're like, dude, I'm not interested, that's probably a no. But it depends on it's all contextual. Like, I hate to give like straight jacket interpretations because. Because people, people.
- [62:47]
B
But people want to understand.
- [62:49]
A
Yeah.
- [62:50]
B
When do I disqualify. Is the, is the formal terminology for this?
- [62:54]
A
That answer would be based off me reading their. Here's what I would say. Listen to what the prospect means, not just what they're saying. Okay. Okay. So it's all contextual based on. If I'm in person, I see their body language because their body language could tell me like, dude, this, this person's really not interested. Nothing I can do here is going to get their guard down compared if I was on the phone. I've got to, I've got to read their tonality. So let me give you an example of this. Well, let's go. Let's go back to this for a second. What causes a prospect to give you an objection?
- [63:29]
B
I would assume I'll make an assumption. I don't know if it's correct. I would assume in their mind they think that it's not relevant to.
- [63:36]
A
It's uncertainty.
- [63:37]
B
It's uncertainty.
- [63:38]
A
Uncertainty triggers them to have a concern or an objection. Uncertainty. Who controls that the prospect's certain or uncertain.
- [63:46]
B
It would be the salesperson.
- [63:47]
A
Yeah. So it's not. See a lot of salespeople like, oh, my prospects give me all these objections, but I'm like, I love you. Did the prospect wake up that morning and be like, you know what? When that salesperson calls me today at 3:45 in the afternoon, I think I might go into fight or flight mode about 35 seconds in and say, oh good, we're not. We already have somebody. Like, that's not a plan objection. It's a triggered objection based off you and what you said and how you use your tone that triggered them to react that way. So if I understand how to eliminate those. That triggering stuff, I just have an advantage over everybody else because I can get them to let their guard down, but I have to get them certainly. So let's say you're trying to close somebody and you ask them like, hey, do you. Do you feel like this could be the. The answer for you? And they're like, they're sitting here like this. You're in person. Like, yeah, yeah. I think it could. Most salespeople do. What. Great. Let me show you to get started. What I just heard though, if. Even if I didn't see them was they're uncertain. Their tone just told me they're not really sure the way they said that. So I would say you seemed a bit hesitant when I asked you that last question. What's going on? Well, see, the tone. The tone. Listen to what they mean, not just what they say. See, if I were to try to close in, they're probably like, oh, I'm not ready yet. I need to talk to my spouse or, you know, I'm not ready. I need to think this over. Okay. I would have triggered that had I kept going in for that close based off then like, well, I think it could see, then I'm going to stop. That just told me. I'm not sure that was what they just told me. So I'm going to lean and be like. You seemed a bit hesitant when I asked you that question. What's. What's going on? You can tell me. I'm not, you know, it's off the record. You know, just that concern tone. They're like, well, I just have this concern now. I'm there to help them resolve that concern. And then I'm going to close, and I'm probably not going to get that one to think it over. Objection. Which is not really an objection in itself, but that's a whole nother story.
- [65:58]
B
People are selling virtual. They're also, I mean, I mean, Covet obviously pushed people to sell virtual.
- [66:03]
A
Yeah.
- [66:04]
B
And, and, But I just want to understand. You mentioned tonality. You mentioned body language. Obviously, you can't see the body if you're on a zoom call to the same degrees if you're sitting across from them.
- [66:16]
A
Yeah, you can see some, but.
- [66:17]
B
Yeah, some.
- [66:17]
A
But can I say something about zoom? I think most sales people that sell on Zoom do make some pretty, pretty critical mistakes that are really bad. First of all, there's a couple things you want to do psychologically. You. When you're on zoom, you never want to have your background blurred out or like a different. Like you have a beach behind you and you're sitting right here. Why is that? Because subconsciously are the way our brains work. This is like you're talking tens of thousands of years whenever God put the first humans here on this planet. That's all debatable. Back in the day, if somebody had their hands behind their back 10,000 years ago, you'd be triggered because you think that they might be hiding a weapon. Now, even though that other human beings on Zoom, our brains still have that survival mode. So if you're on zoom and they only see up here and they can't see any of this. Yeah. Or like, subconsciously you're communicating to them that you might be hiding something. They don't. It's not like they're thinking like you're going to pull out a gun and shoot the screen. Like it doesn't matter. But subconsciously their brain is telling, I can't trust this person because they, they can't see your arms. Like you might be hiding a weapon. I'm not kidding you. This is crazy. One of my good friends, Mark Bowden, is one of the leading behavioral. Leading behavioral scientists that specializes in body language. He trains a lot of. He trains a lot of like, Parliament and like the EU and stuff like that. And they teach politicians this stuff, right? Like how to use their hand signals and different things like that. And if you literally, like, hide your arms. Because I see a lot of people like this. I'm like, they see like the neck. You don't want to do that. You want to see navel up. We call this the trust zone. Like the trust zone. Like navel up. See all this? That's a trust zone. You never. I see a lot of people like, like they'll. They'll be on phone and zoom. So it looks like they're looking down at the prospect. Overpowering them. You don't want to have that feeling because they feel like you're overpowering them. You also don't want to be looking up like this because then you look like lower status. So you need to have, like, good. This is like important stuff. You need, like, to have a good camera. You need to be like, up here, you know, you need to be able to, like, move your arms. And you always want your background not to be like, blurred out or like a beach scene or something. Like not your thing, because it communicates to them that you're once again hiding something. So you want like a nice bookshelf like you have here with some books on or something that shows that you have some wisdom maybe that they don't have subconsciously. So anytime you see me do any reels or like a virtual training, what do you see in my background? I don't know if you've ever saw my stuff. You're going to see like 2,000 books behind me. Like, I have a whole library behind me. I'm subconsciously seeding that. I have knowledge you don't have, which I do, but I'm seeding it by my background. And I'm not doing it to them. I'm doing that for them.
- [69:17]
B
Everything. Everything.
- [69:18]
A
You do everything. Everything's doing it for them.
- [69:21]
B
Yeah.
- [69:22]
A
To influence. I don't view influence as something that's bad, though. I view influence as something I'M doing for them, which is what it is. Like, if I, if I can't communicate and frame my message well enough, enough, like I have a moral obligation to help these people because if I don't help them sell more, who is? If they keep selling the same way they always have, what's going to happen? Same thing they've always gotten. So if I can't influence them to let their guard down and to become open to, like, I've got to master this stuff, nothing will ever change for them. And I offer them no value at that point.
- [70:02]
B
Can you just give a little bit of knowledge about what does certain body language mean? What does certain tonality mean, if the customer is giving it back to you or if they're speaking a certain way? Because, I mean, we're talking. Most of this podcast has been from the perspective of how do you act as a salesperson?
- [70:19]
A
Yeah, but how do you read them?
- [70:21]
B
How do you read them?
- [70:22]
A
Yeah. So that one example where I just gave the tone of the prospect would be an example. Let's say that, let's say I'm in person, person. And, you know, I'm meeting in a boardroom. There's 10 decision makers. I've already got two on board, like two C level executives. They're my champions. I've got eight people that. This is their fifth pitch of the day. You know, it's Thursday. They bring in all the vendors. They don't know me from Adam. Okay. And let's say I'm going through a presentation and then over in the corner, you know, nine seats down, I see Karen over there go like this, and she kind of, you know, I go through that last slide and she kind of looks up and like, like, like that. That just told me that she doesn't understand something that I just went through. Or she doesn't agree with it, or she has a concern. Now, if she just goes like this doesn't necessarily mean that she's closed off. Maybe she's cold. You know, it just depends on if she gives me a lot of signals like that that she's closed off. But just because a person just goes like this, because people was like, oh, if somebody folds their arms or closed off, not necessarily. They just could be cold. They could be freaking bored, you know, so you gotta, you gotta see that. But if, if she goes like, well, what would most sales people do? Would they keep going through the presentation, hope and pray that something they're going to say is going to convince everybody? Not me? Like, I. She's got a Concern, because I'm going to leave that room. They're still going to be there and they're going to do what?
- [71:44]
B
Talk.
- [71:45]
A
They're going to talk and she might start to influence them about something. She has a concern. I could see it, you know, her body language. So I'm going to stop the presentation. Like, hey, hey, hey, Gretchen. You see, you seemed a little bit hesitant when I went through.
- [71:59]
B
You're not going to be mortified that you're doing that, though.
- [72:01]
A
It's. That. It's how you do it. If I'm like, hey, Gretchen. Hey. You seemed a little bit like, see, that's. She'd be mortified. But, hey, hey, hey, Gretchen. Yeah. You seemed a little bit hesitant when I. When I went through slide 14. Can you. What's behind that? Just so I understand. Concern tone. Yeah, Tone that shows empathy. Now she feels comfortable because I'm concerned. I have empathy. Okay. He's hesitant when I went through that last side. What's. What's behind that? What's, you know, what's going on? Concern tone. But I'm like, hey, you seemed a bit hesitant about that. Like, what's going on? Now she's going to get defensive, see, because I want her to tell that concern there. I've got to get it out of her now. Now I'm there. Everybody else is going to hear it anyways. Now I can address it and, like, move on and help close them. So just little things like that. That'd be a body language signal. Now if I want to influence on my end, if I want to show somebody I'm concerned for them, I could put my hand on my chest. What's really holding you back? So body language signal that you care. They have empathy. There's a lot of different things. I could go on and on.
- [73:06]
B
What if you do zoom and the person's camera's off?
- [73:09]
A
Well, I would make sure they have their camera on. But a lot of people are weird when they do that. They get on there. They don't have their camera on. They're like, hey, can you turn on your camera on? I really like to see who. Who I'll be working with. And people are like, whoa, weird. But so you gotta. You gotta kind of act this out. So if you get on there.
- [73:22]
B
You know what? Sorry, I want to.
- [73:24]
A
Go ahead.
- [73:24]
B
Everything you do, Everything you do is in service of them. And everything you do, including how to get them to turn on the camera, is a micro sale.
- [73:32]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [73:33]
B
That's. That's just how you.
- [73:34]
A
Everything is. Yeah.
- [73:34]
B
So don't you, don't, you don't command them to turn off the camera?
- [73:38]
A
No.
- [73:38]
B
You're selling them on the idea of.
- [73:40]
A
Having a camera influencing them. Yeah. Because it's there to help them too. Yeah. So if, if I can see them, I can read their body language better. Just those, I, I can't read their body language. If the things off and it's kind of weird talking to a black screen. That would be weird. So when they get on I might be like, can you, can, can you see me? I, I can't see you. Is your video broken? Doing that? A lot of times people are just like, oh no, no, I, and they'll just turn on because they feel embarrassed. Okay. 80% of the time they'll just turn on because they literally feel embarrassed. And if they're like oh no, I just, I don't like to turn my cameras on. Well, what's going on over there? You still in your pajamas at 3:30 or 3:30 in the afternoon? George? Oh, a lot of times they'll just laugh and they'll turn it on. But I have to use a playful tone there. I'm like, what's going on? Are you in your pajamas at 3:30 in the afternoon? Whoa, weird guy. Yeah. So it's how you use your tone. That's where a playful tone comes in, where you're playing with them. Like you're, you know, you're not the class clown but you're, you're being a little bit sarcastic. You know, just cause people to laugh. It's a disarming technique. I might get on a call in certain industries where I have a types a lot of like business owners. I'd be like, you know, I get on there, I start talking like, hey, yeah, I really appreciate, you know, your openness here because you'd be surprised. I just got off a call with another company there for 20 minutes and they were so close minded and just kind of emotionally shut off. And you know, people like that are never successful that are closed off themselves. Now what did I just do? I put them in identity frame that they're not going to be closed off because they don't want to be like those unsuccessful people. Amazing. See how I did that? So I'm already taking them out of the frame of being closed off. I'm deframing them and reframing them into the frame of being open. So there's all these like things that you do to help them. Like if I can't get them to open up, if they stay Closed off. I can't really help them. Right, right. So a lot of people are like, oh, you know, Jeremy, like, I just have a hard time. I just don't like asking questions where they. They talk about the pain because they just get so emotional. I'm like, well, unfortunately for them, that really sucks because they're not going to buy from you. Because if you can't help them relive their pain and have a fear of future pain, they feel no need to change. And if they feel no need to change, that's why they don't buy. So if you feel uncomfortable, you're just hurting them. Them. See, I'm not doing it to them. I'm doing it for them. I. I'm getting them to feel their pain because I'm doing it for them. Because pain drives change. Like if I came here right now with a sledgehammer and just like, slammed down on your kneecap, smashed it, you feel a lot of pain. You want to change real quick. Like you want to go to the doctor to get that solved. But if I walk around with the sledgehammer and I've got this weird look, I'm like a stranger. Now you're feeling a fear of future pain, and you want to move away from that pain. See, pain, Fear of future pain cause you to want to change Two biggest emotional drivers. Pleasure is a third.
- [76:35]
B
Last one question to close this out, but before we get there, where do you want people to go and connect with you?
- [76:40]
A
Just have them follow me on Instagram, follow my verified account. Jeremy Lee Minor. Follow that verified account. And by the way, my team is going to give everybody here our newest version of any PQ Black Book of Questions. We'll give you the digital version for free. If you want the physical, you can always pay the shipping. It's like 10 bucks or something stupid. I. Maybe I have one. I'll get you.
- [77:03]
B
I will get a link from you.
- [77:04]
A
There's a. There's a number they have to text to get it. So text is at 480-637-2944. And just text and they'll get your information to digitally send it out to you. If you want the physical copy, you just pay the shipping handling. But. But do that. And that number, they can actually ask us questions on it because me, me and about 10 of our sales trainers lock ourselves in a conference room about an hour and a half each day, and we answer people's questions. It's kind of cool.
- [77:30]
B
Okay, I'll just text us if you have a link too. I could put it in the show notes and we'll. We'll send everything.
- [77:35]
A
Yeah. Oh, the phone number.
- [77:36]
B
Oh, you just want phone numbers?
- [77:38]
A
Just. They can. Well, they can follow me on Instagram, so I'll give you my handle, and then they can just text us on that number. It's. It's a number that goes into, like, my. My team, the people that do the black book stuff. Yeah.
- [77:48]
B
Out of everything. Out of everything that you've learned over your career, I always like to ask this question because it sort of draws out sort of the most important lesson that you've learned. It could be in sales. It could be in life. If you could only pass on one lesson to your kids, what would that lesson be and why?
- [78:05]
A
Success is just a choice. You just choose. Well, success is simply a choice. You decide if you're going to be successful or not. Nobody forces you to be unsuccessful. You have to do things to be successful. You have to learn, and you have to take knowledge off what you learn. Most people do it backwards. They either learn a bunch of stuff, never take action, or they just take action, but they never learn, and so they fail. It's hard to fail when you acquire skills necessary for success. It's easy to fail when you don't acquire skills necessary to success. And I think a lot of people, it's like this hustle culture, like, just go out and fail. You know, you gotta fail 17 times before you succeed. I like, who wants to freaking fail, man? I don't want to fail. I want to learn skills that allow me to have knowledge to succeed. If I acquire skills that are advanced from people who've already mastered the thing I want to do, the likelihood of me failing is, like, really, really low. But if I don't master those skills, if I dabble, the likelihood for me to fail is very, very high. That's the.