Success Story with Scott D. Clary – "Lessons: Bad Leadership vs Good Leadership – The Truth"

Guest: Alain Hunkins (Fortune 100 Advisor)
Date: September 3, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Scott D. Clary sits down with leadership advisor Alain Hunkins to explore the crucial differences between bad and good leadership. The conversation examines why many organizations default to control-based management, why such approaches often fail, and how leaders can make an impactful shift from focusing on numbers to focusing on people. Alain shares real-world stories, research insights, and actionable strategies for developing genuine leadership and influencing change both laterally and upwards in any organization.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bad Leadership: The Command-and-Control Mindset

• Definition & Manifestation

  • Bad leadership is rooted in a top-down, control-based approach where the leader acts as the sole "fixer" of problems.
  • Leaders default to directing and micromanaging rather than enabling or empowering their teams.

• Example: The Story of Matt (Fast Food District Manager) [02:13]

  • Alain shares Matt’s transformation from a low-ranked “fixer” to a top-performing leader by changing his approach:
    • Initially, Matt believed his job was to “fix” everything. Daily, he would review his “hot list” of poor metrics and then rush from store to store telling staff, “This is wrong, you need to fix this.”
    • This micromanagement led to high stress, disengagement, and little improvement:

      “I was struggling, and I sucked. Like things were not getting better. I was working my tail off and things were not getting better.” — Alain Hunkins, paraphrasing Matt [03:23]

    • After mentoring, Matt shifted his focus to building real relationships, learning team members' names, and collaborating on solutions.
    • New approach: Instead of dictating fixes, he asked, “Here’s the data. What do you think we should do?” and worked with the team to create action plans.

      “The shift for me was I started focusing on the people, because surprise, surprise, it’s the people who make the numbers.” — Alain Hunkins as Matt [04:24]

    • Outcome: Less stress, better results, and more enjoyment for everyone.

2. Good Leadership: Servant Leadership & Relationship-Building

• Servant Leader vs Taskmaster [05:22]
  • Scott highlights how servant leadership emphasizes enabling rather than controlling, and this approach is increasingly seen among forward-thinking leaders.

    “It’s such a better way to lead...not being that taskmaster, you know, cracking the whip.” — Scott D. Clary [05:22]

  • Good leaders prioritize trust, listening, and coaching, viewing performance issues as opportunities for collaboration rather than criticism.

3. Why Command-and-Control Persists [06:12]

• Barriers to Change

  • Organizational inertia: “What gets measured and rewarded is what gets done.” Leaders stick with what they've always known unless change becomes urgent.
  • Lack of self-awareness: Most leaders overestimate their own self-awareness, which prevents necessary evolution.

    “Literally only like 8 to 10% of people are self aware. Though like 70% say they are, which is pretty scary.” — Alain Hunkins [06:55]

• The Need for 'Alarm Clock Moments'

  • Citing Tasha Eurich's research, Alain describes how leaders rarely change until they experience wake-up calls or "hit bottom" moments.

• Organizational Impact

  • Without urgency and support from the top, meaningful change rarely happens:

    “Every organization is limited by the level of the self-awareness of the leaders at the top of the hierarchy.” — Alain Hunkins [07:42]

4. Managing Up: Strategies for Influencing Those Above You [10:14]

• Applicability Beyond Business

  • Leadership and “managing up” applies in schools, community organizations, sports, and more—not just corporate settings.

• Effective Tactics

  • Don't confront leaders head-on with criticism (“Hey, you’re sucky at this” doesn’t work).

  • Find alignment: Identify shared goals and frame suggestions in light of mutual benefit.

  • Use tact and finesse—what Alain likens to “aikido,” using their energy to guide them toward change:

    “How can you position and frame what you’re going to tell them in light of ‘this is going to help you help us be better’?” — Alain Hunkins [11:26]

  • Build credibility over time by supporting existing initiatives before proposing changes. This establishes trust and increases the likelihood your feedback will be welcomed.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Poor Leadership:

  “People don’t want a fixer, they want a leader.” — Alain Hunkins’ mentor, relayed by Alain [03:05]

• On Results:

  “I worked so much harder and I was so much more stressed out then than I am... and I’m delivering number one results now. So not only are we delivering great results, we’re having so much more fun.” — Alain Hunkins as Matt [04:45]

• On Self-Awareness and Change:

  “Unless you have that wake up call, that hit bottom moment, that ‘holy crap, what I’m doing is not working,’ you’ll stick with it.” — Alain Hunkins [07:18]

• On Influence:

  “This is all of those great political skills of how do you couch your message in a way that people can hear come into play?... There’s an art to managing up.” — Alain Hunkins [12:34]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:13] – Matt’s story: Fixer mentality vs. relationship-building leadership
• [04:24] – Shift from numbers to people; resulting performance improvement
• [05:22] – Discussion of servant leadership vs. command-and-control
• [06:12] – Why traditional leadership persists; self-awareness data
• [07:42] – Organizational change limitations & need for urgency
• [10:14] – Managing up: Strategies, alignment, and practical “politics”

Summary Takeaways

• Bad leadership is characterized by micromanagement, focusing solely on metrics, and a lack of personal connection. This approach rarely leads to long-term improvement.
• Good leadership puts people first—building relationships, fostering collaboration, and enabling teams to find and own solutions.
• Self-awareness and a willingness to evolve are rare but essential qualities in effective leaders. Change often requires a personal or organizational wake-up call.
• Influencing those above you (managing up) demands patience, alignment with shared goals, credibility, and nuanced communication.
• Effective leadership is a universal skill, transformative across industries, organizations, and even community groups.

This episode provides practical advice and real-world stories to help listeners recognize and break free from old paradigms of ineffective leadership—whether they’re in charge of a team or seeking to create positive change from the middle.