A (3:38)

Yeah, I think that's very wise. I think that even without intention, her Mosi speaks about this a lot. How entrepreneurs sometimes last in this cycle their entire life about starting something, get, you know, getting excited about it, then the hardship happens and then, you know, you get kind of disenchanted with it. Then you start the next thing and then you get the motivation to start it and then hardship happens and then you move on to the next thing. And I think it's because you don't have that big picture or that North Star and you, and you aren't intentional at what you're doing. Like intention in my mind is what gets you through all those inevitably hard moments that are going to occur whenever you're building anything meaningful. That you need to have intention and you need to have North Star and you need to have a vision bigger than, you know, the shitty, the shitty thing that's bound to happen on the way to building the impressive, incredible, amazing thing. It's so, so, so important. I know that when you started Mindstream, it didn't like blow up right away. It took a, it took a second. So early days of sending that newsletter, actually before we even talked about early days of sending the newsletter, what made you want to focus on AI content? What was like, what was the signal in the market that that was a good idea.

B (4:53)

So this is May, May 24 May 2023, that we sat down and when we sat down to decide on what we're going to start, we didn't know it was going to be a newsletter and we didn't know it was going to be AI. We made that decision in the space of two or three hours. So I have to think about what I was influenced by at that time. And most of my, like I said earlier, most of my time at work was spent outbounding on LinkedIn. That's a little bit of a lie. Most of my time at work was spent scrolling through LinkedIn. Right. You know, and maybe, of course, maybe.

A (5:28)

A little bit of outbound.

B (5:30)

Yeah. And obviously there's a algorithmic effect to, like someone's LinkedIn feed, but mine became all about AI. And I was following these, these creators who were, who was building these followings, talking about AI. If anyone thinks back to that time, it was just everything. Like, someone could put a lead magnet of 100 ChatGPT prompts and get like thousands of emails overnight. So it was the obvious thing to go for at the time. That's not the. That's not enough, I don't think. So when me and Matt sat down and talking about it, I said, I think AI is the thing. Do you, as the copywriter, care enough about this technology to write about it every day? And luckily Matt did. Otherwise we might have picked something totally different and not be where we are today.

A (6:17)

I think that, listen, there's something to be said for, for like riding a trend. I think that's. I think that's a. It's smart. But the trends are also busy, so that means that there was probably a whole bunch of other people writing AI newsletters. So I think that just jumping on, like a bandwagon trend, it sounds compelling and it sounds like a great idea, but then you realize that everybody's doing it, so you still have to differentiate somehow. It's not like it's. It's not like it's easy. Do you think, do you think that if you had chosen to write about anything else, you would have been as successful as fast?

B (6:52)

Definitely not. Definitely not. You mentioned about the competition. Even when we sat down to. To start Mindstream, though, I remember looking at it and there were more than a thousand AI newsletters on Beehive. Like on our day one, there was more than a thousand.

A (7:07)

Ridiculous.

B (7:09)

I think a reason for that is Sian Puri had said six months before, someone needs to go and do the hustle for AI. So I was, I was late. Like, we were late. Superhuman. The rundown already had, I think, half a million subscribers. So we were so late. There was big players in the game and there were hundreds and hundreds of smaller players in the game. So in those very early days when we kind of analyzed the market, what we realized is that most of the newsletters were quite smartly using AI technology to just consolidate what's going on. They were doing a pretty good job of curating all of the buzz, and there was so much buzz and then using AI to write these newsletters, and they were just basically saying, here's what happened, that was it. And they were all formatted in the same way because they were all being built on Beehive, which had this amazing way of building these newsletters. So they all kind of look the same. What we had with Matt was like a real copywriter, like a real experienced copywriter who knew how to connect with people, who knew how to have a journalistic angle to something. And from day one, what we tried to do is not just report on the biggest AI news, but. But the AI news that we thought was really interesting and then to give an opinion on that news. So it's not just, here's what happened, it's here's what happened. And this, this is what it might mean for you. This is what it means for X, this is what it means for Y. And that's how we differentiated from day one.

A (8:39)

Yeah, smart. You make it so that you include a human component into it, not just, not just aggregating.

B (8:45)

And also, we signed off every newsletter with written by humans. That was like our little tag at the end in this time when everyone was like using AI to write copy in the early days and it was all rubb. We were written by students.

A (8:57)

When you. So this brings me back to the sort of the point I was alluding to before. When you first started, you did not get the traction that you were looking for. I think that from what I understood, you were getting like you were sending this newsletter to 30, 40 people a day. Your dad was reading it like, like really, really early startup, right? Like, not, like, not like immediately you get a thousand subs. So how. How long did you go through this period of just trying to figure it out? What kept you motivated? What made you think, you know what, Even though it's not picking up, we're definitely on the right track because just to, you know, frame it, whatever, a couple hundred or thousand AI newsletters, there's some. With 500,000 subs, you start. You've never built a newsletter business before. You realize that it's a sort of kind of like a crowded, competitive space. You're not getting traction. There's some people throw in the towel very quickly. I think that if you look at like even stats for podcasters. If you've done more than 10 podcasts, I'm pretty sure it's something ridiculous like you're in the top 1% of podcasters just by releasing 10 plus episodes. So what made you continue?

B (10:10)

So we had, we had pretty humble goals at the start. We both invested £500 to get it started. And that, that Runway like gave us I think a few months just in terms of like the small SaaS cost we had at the start. And our goal was can we both quit our jobs before the end of the year? And this was May, so in six months time can we replace our, our say, our sales and copywriting jobs? And you know, we weren't earning a lot of money here in the UK at the time. So it was just about these tiny building blocks. And my day used to be wake up at 6am, go to the gym, come home, write a piece of content for LinkedIn. Like Matt was writing the newsletter, I was trying to build a following on LinkedIn to generate subscribers. I then schedule that piece of content, go to work and do my sales job. I would then run home for my lunch break, like 5, 10 minute walk from my house. So I would literally run home, get on my laptop and engage on LinkedIn around the time of the post. As you'll know, creating content on LinkedIn, like engagement is pretty key. So I'd literally be sat on LinkedIn writing comments to all these people, lines, comments on my post. Then I'd run back to the office, finish my job, come home at the end of the day and spend another couple of hours on LinkedIn. And when you're that focused on essentially things that don't scale, it was like DMing people, asking them to join the newsletter. It was posting this content, commenting on all these people's posts. You can get obsessed with the small wins. Oh, I got a thousand impressions on the post for the first time. I've just hit 1000 followers on LinkedIn and that was probably the first six or seven weeks and we probably got like a thousand subscribers from LinkedIn. Then at that point Beehive did this like promotion where they were offering like they'd match your investment into their boosts program, which is like a cross paid, cross collaboration across newsletters. So we then dropped in two and a half thousand, which was the maximum. So we got $5,000 of boost credits and started paying, paying for subscribers that way. So suddenly we were having like 2,000 3,000 subscribers. And at that point we made some money. Someone wanted to advertise in the newsletter and they also paid me to post about their content on LinkedIn. I think it was like 2, $300 for our first sponsor and.

A (12:51)

Amazing. That's. That's like, now you validated, even in a small way, the idea.

B (12:56)

Yeah, that was it. You hit the nail on the head. It was validation. And then you could start to build a model, right? You could go, okay, we have this many subscribers, we charged at this CPM. I charged at this CPM for my LinkedIn and you can just model it out from there. And with this model, we were able to secure some investment. So we had two and a half thousand subscribers. We'd made like maybe 5, 600 pounds at this point. And I secured a 40,000 pounds investment for 10% of the company. So it was like 400,000 pound valuation. And that was it. That was our Runway. We'd achieved the goal of can we quit our jobs? You know, three, so.

A (13:39)

Oh, go ahead. Sorry.

B (13:40)

Three months in, this was. So it was launched in May and then, yes, September, October, we got this deal over the line.

A (13:47)

Thanks for tuning in. If you found this valuable, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you want to dive deeper into this conversation, check out the links in the description to watch the full episode. See you in the next one.