Lessons - The Hidden Psychology of Crisis Survival | Matt Gutman - Chief National Correspondent at ABC News

Summary

Success Story Podcast Summary

Episode: Lessons - The Hidden Psychology of Crisis Survival | Matt Gutman - Chief National Correspondent at ABC News
Host: Scott D. Clary
Release Date: February 28, 2025

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Introduction to Crisis Survival and Panic

In this enlightening episode, Scott D. Clary engages in a deep conversation with Matt Gutman, the Chief National Correspondent at ABC News, exploring the intricate psychology behind crisis survival and panic. The discussion delves into how panic is both an evolutionary survival mechanism and a challenge in modern life, especially when exacerbated by past traumas.

Understanding Panic: Evolutionary Roots and Modern Implications

Matt Gutman begins by addressing a critical question posed by Scott:

Scott Clary [04:26]: "How do you know when panic is working the way it should versus if it is maybe working on overdrive because of things that have happened in our past?"

Matt responds thoughtfully:

Matt Gutman [04:38]: "If the panic is debilitating to your life, then it's something you've got to deal with. There's something going on with the trauma that you need to address."

He highlights the difference between situational panic—such as experiencing a panic attack on a stressful day—and chronic panic resulting from unresolved trauma. Matt emphasizes the importance of recognizing when panic transitions from a protective mechanism to a hindrance, necessitating holistic intervention.

Personal Journey: Overcoming Debilitating Panic

Matt shares his personal struggle with debilitating panic, describing it as:

Matt Gutman [07:00]: "I was like, okay, just take everything easy. Just don't take it so seriously. Breath work had definitely helped to open up my mind a bit and relieve some of the pressure."

Despite being a seasoned journalist, Matt found himself battling panic attacks that traditional methods like pharmaceuticals and therapy couldn't fully alleviate. His turning point came during a harrowing experience in Alaska:

Matt Gutman [08:21]: "I had a surge of adrenaline, which is basically your stress response, like a panic attack, for the real reason that you should have a panic."

Stranded in Denali's snow, Matt's survival instinct kicked in, showcasing how panic can be a life-saving response when aligned with genuine threats. This experience became a pivotal moment in understanding and harnessing his panic rather than being overwhelmed by it.

Techniques for Managing Panic: Breath Work and Altered States

Throughout his journey, Matt experimented with various techniques to manage panic and anxiety:

1. Breath Work: Matt credits breath work with helping him alleviate emotional pressure, stating:

   Matt Gutman [07:00]: "Breath work had definitely helped to open up my mind a bit and relieve some of the pressure."

2. Therapy and Psychedelics: Traditional therapies and altered states of consciousness played significant roles in his healing process. Matt explains:

   Matt Gutman [16:07]: "Learning that I'm okay evolutionarily, that this is part of the human DNA, was crucial. Altered states like breath work or ayahuasca allowed me to lose control and release bottled-up emotions."

He emphasizes the importance of integration—processing and making sense of these experiences with professional guidance to derive lasting benefits.

Evolutionary Perspective: Panic as a Protective Mechanism

Matt offers an evolutionary perspective on panic, arguing that it's deeply ingrained in human DNA as a survival tool. He explains:

Matt Gutman [06:09]: "Panic preserves humans. Your body doesn't care if you suffer a little bit. It wants you just not to be dead."

This viewpoint underscores the dual nature of panic: while it can protect us in life-threatening situations, it can also become maladaptive in non-threatening contexts, especially when influenced by past traumas.

Overcoming Panic: Integration and New Perspectives

The culmination of Matt's efforts led him to a better understanding and management of his panic. He reflects on his transformation:

Matt Gutman [19:06]: "I'm in a lot better place than I was. The journey of figuring out panic and getting to the end of panic took like three and a half years of maintenance and work."

By embracing his panic as an evolutionary trait and utilizing techniques like breath work and psychedelics, Matt was able to transform his relationship with panic, turning a debilitating experience into a source of resilience.

Conclusion: Lessons and Insights

Matt Gutman's journey offers profound insights into the hidden psychology of crisis survival:

• Recognize the Nature of Your Panic: Distinguish between situational panic and panic rooted in trauma.
• Embrace Holistic Techniques: Incorporate breath work, therapy, and altered states to manage and understand panic.
• Evolutionary Understanding: Acknowledge panic as a fundamental human trait designed for survival.
• Integration is Key: Process and make sense of transformative experiences to foster lasting resilience.

Matt's story serves as an inspiration for anyone grappling with panic, highlighting that with the right strategies and mindset, it's possible to harness panic as a tool for survival and personal growth.

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Notable Quotes:

• Matt Gutman [04:38]: "If the panic is debilitating to your life, then it's something you've got to deal with. There's something going on with the trauma that you need to address."
• Matt Gutman [07:00]: "Breath work had definitely helped to open up my mind a bit and relieve some of the pressure."
• Matt Gutman [08:21]: "I had a surge of adrenaline, which is basically your stress response, like a panic attack, for the real reason that you should have a panic."
• Matt Gutman [16:07]: "Learning that I'm okay evolutionarily, that this is part of the human DNA, was crucial. Altered states like breath work or ayahuasca allowed me to lose control and release bottled-up emotions."
• Matt Gutman [19:06]: "I'm in a lot better place than I was. The journey of figuring out panic and getting to the end of panic took like three and a half years of maintenance and work."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Matt Gutman's insights into crisis survival and panic management, offering valuable lessons for listeners seeking to understand and overcome their own challenges with panic and anxiety.

Transcript

[Scott Clary]

Today's Success Story podcast is brought to you by Vanta. Now listen up. This matters for your business. In today's digital landscape, security isn't optional, it's essential. Without it, deal, stall, sales cycle stretch out and scaling becomes really difficult. Why? Because investors, customers, partners, they all expect businesses to demonstrate strong security practices before they commit to anything. And if you can't prove trust, you lose opportunities. So whether you're a startup founder trying to land that first big client or an established company scaling your security program, Vanta helps businesses of all sizes prove they're trustworthy by Automating compliance across 35 frameworks like SoC2, ISO 27001 and HIPAA. The exact certifications your prospects, your customers are demanding. And here's why you need to pay attention. Vanta gives you back precious time you're currently wasting on compliance. Their platform automates up to 90% of the tedious compliance work and it helps you respond to those endless security questionnaires up to five times faster. And they also connect you with to get your security program running immediately. And the results they speak for themselves. A recent IDC report found that Vanta customers achieve over $535,000 per year in benefits and the platform pays for itself in just three months. So join over 10,000 global companies like Atlassian, CORA and Factory who use Vanta to manage risk, improve security in real time, and don't miss this for a limited time, only my listeners can get a thousand dollars off Vanta. That's real money back in your pocket. Visit vanta.com Scott now this offer expires. That's V A N T A dot com Scott For $1,000 off a huge shout out to Federated Computer for supporting today's episode. Let me explain why I love Federated Computer. Why they are friends of success story. They are changing the way businesses buy software because we all need software to run our businesses. I don't care what kind of business you're building, but the best business software doesn't have to cost thousands of dollars each month. So Federated Computer replaces a lot of the software that you're using right now. Let me explain. The average typical Federated computer customer saves 75% or more on their software built and gets great software, top notch customer service and support and a software solution that is uniquely installed for your business without any sort of surveillance or breaches of privacy. For example, if you use Google for email, Salesforce for CRM, Slack for team chat, list Monkey for customer acquisitions, and Airtable for data management with a team of 10, you'd save $9,000 per year on software costs by switching to Federated Computer. They replace all of those. And what's wild is that the cost of Federated Computer doesn't grow as your team grows. You can use Federated Computer savings to grow your business rather than feed the woke Silicon Valley software companies. The Federated Computer team literally invented cloud software. They actually have the patents to prove it. And they are taking a hammer to the ridiculously high prices of business software that all entrepreneurs are suffering from. Federated Computer. They've been a longtime supporter of Success story. They're offering 30% off their already low prices when you use the coupon code freelance. So go to www.federated.computer to begin saving 75% or more on your monthly software costs. That's www.federated computer. These folks are going to do you a big favor. Check them out in this lesson's episode. Discover why panic is wired into human DNA as both a survival mechanism and a challenge. Learn to differentiate between debilitating anxiety and natural stress responses. And explore techniques like breath work, intentional exposure and psychedelic integration to transform panic into resilience. You mentioned something, I just want to ask you one thing on that point because you said it's built into our genetic, into our DNA, into our genetics. Right? This is, this is how we survived as a species and evolved. But it's also, it's also partly built into potentially some past trauma. So how do you know when it's working the way it should versus if it is maybe working on overdrive because of things that have happened in our past?

[Matt]

I mean, I think it's a brilliant question and I'm not just buttering up the interview. I think it's a really good question. We don't know. The thing is, if the panic is debilitating to your life, then it's something you've got to deal with. Then there's something going on there with the trauma that you need to deal with. If it's a one off like you had on an extraordinarily hot day in Miami when you're hungover and you see some weird stats about your blood pressure and you haven't eaten and you have a panic attack, that's a different issue, right? That it's environmental. Maybe you have a greater predisposition for panic because you are higher on the anxiety scale. Possibly it's not a bad thing, by the way, but when it's like debilitating your life, then that's when you need to deal with it on a more holistic way. And that's what I needed to do. I needed to like basically treat panic as I treated the big stories I worked on in my journalism career, which is like, and that's how I played sports, you know, in high school and college. Like, if there's a wall, I'm going to run through it, I'm going to do whatever I need to do. And that's what I signed myself with, panic. I'm like, okay, first I'm gonna learn everything there is to possibly learn about panic. Then I'm gonna figure out why it is that I'm broken and why humans evolved to have panic in the DNA or anxiety because all the science tells us it's so unhealthy. And then once I looked into that, I'm realizing, yes, it's kind of unhealthy, but it's also one of the things that preserves humans. And your body doesn't care if you suffer a little bit. It wants you just not to be dead. Anything to not get dead.

[Scott Clary]

No, I was gonna say, I mean that's a good, that's a good, nice little built in safety mechanism. I mean, I'm not going to complain about that. But I was just going to ask, when you look at sort of the point in your life when you realize it was a major issue, you do some breath work and you go back to work, you're still reporting you didn't change your career wasn't was the solution. Breath work was a solution. Therapy was a solution. Awareness was a solution. All of those things combined with doing the thing that gives you anxiety another 200 times, being cognizant of the fact that this feeling is actually going to arise, but working through it anyways with a little bit of a more educated lens, like, how did you evolve from that point?

[Matt]

Well, I, I definitely had not evolved. When I went back to work, I was presented with, you know, like, I could have stayed out, but like I have, I am the sole breadwinner, right? Like, I couldn't quit my job, so I needed to find an exit ramp. And my, in my brain I was like, okay, just take everything easy. Just don't take it so seriously. You know, Breath work had definitely helped to open up my mind a bit and relieve some of the pressure that had been building up just emotionally. So I did it a couple times with Lane and I had, you know, a good, a couple of really good experiences during my suspension. I also went to Alaska, had a near death experience and then started to like, I Got lost on. On near Denali in the snow. And in mid February in Alaska. Just typically not a great thing to do as it gets getting dark. But, like, I had a surge of adrenaline, which is basically your stress response, which is the same thing, essentially as a panic attack. But it was for the real reason that you should have a panic, which is your body being like, holy shit, Matt. You're alone in Denali. It's 3:00 in the afternoon, it's getting dark, you have no food, you have a little bit of water, and you're stuck in snow that's over your head and you can't get out. You're fucked. And I'm like, oh, I'm fucked.

[Scott Clary]

Look how I feel.

[Matt]

That's like, exactly what feel of a panic attack. Okay, well, this is my body working as it should during the stress response. And in fact, what happened was it triggered something in my brain that allowed me to think of a novel way to get out of this snow that was so deep, I couldn't get out of it. It was like this. It was like quicksand of snow, so powdery. I couldn't get on top. So I was, like, drowning in it. So I. Before I'd seen snowshoe hares. I'm like, I'm gonna make myself like a snowshoe here. So I thrashed around to this spruce tree, and I apologize to the tree, but I start, like, snapping off branches, and I'm putting them in my clothes into my jacket and my hands and in my feet and in, like, all over. And I'm basically, like, being a snow angel to get out of the deep snow. And that's how I got out of there. And because the. One of the things that does work when you're having a panic attack is your internal GPS system. I had gone down the mountain in a very different way than I come up off the trail because I'm like, hey, let me take off the beaten path into Denali when I'm hiking it alone in the middle of the winter. That was dumb. But anyway, my. Your internal GPS system works really well when you're having a stress response. And it totally oriented me on the right path. I did not have a trail. And like, somehow an hour later, I figured out how to cross the trail and I got back on the trail. Like, all this stuff that happens in a panic, in a stress response worked as it should. I'm like, okay, so this obviously just had a stress response, and it worked to my advantage. I've had stress responses in A panic that do not work to my advantage. So part of it is okay, let me figure out how to deal with the part that's not working for me. Yeah, I had to go back to work because like I needed the paycheck to be quit honest. But like the journey of figuring out panic and getting to the end of panic. I don't know if it's not sure I'll never have a panic attack again, but I'm in a lot better place than I was. But that was years that took like three and a half years of like maintenance and work and lots of psychedelics and therapy and I tried every pharmaceutical out there that you could ever imagine. ADHD medication and Ben's and antidepressants and anti seizure medication, everything. And it didn't work. What worked for me best was learning that I'm okay evolutionarily. Like this is part of the human DNA. So like that I'm not up that I am like as a human is that I'm not totally broken. And learning that like a way to express the feelings that I've been bottling up inside for so long through getting out of my right mind with altered states. Because in my right mind I was way too controlling of my emotions. But when you're doing an altered state you have no control. Whether it be breath work or ayahuasca, you lose control. And once you lose control you can start to expectorate, to cough up to get rid of all of this like anguish and grief inside or whatever it is that's that you're dealing with.

[Scott Clary]

A shout out to NORDVPN for supporting today's episode. I have to tell you a story. So I was actually in Toronto visiting family last month and I went to binge some of my favorite Netflix shows. I forgot and I realized that half of my US shows weren't available in Canada. Super Annoying flipped on NORDVPN within seconds. I got access to everything. Now it's not just about watching shows. What makes NORDVPN a game changer really? Just imagine having this personal security guard for your entire digital Life. With just one click you're connected to one of their 7100 servers across 118 countries. I mainly use it for accessing streaming services when I travel. But I've also saved hundreds on flight bookings by checking prices from different countries. And their new threat protection pro blocks all those endless pop ups and suspicious links before they even get to me. And what I love most is how simple it is. One account, 10 devices, so laptop, phone, iPad, everything's covered. And the speed. Honestly, it's so fast that I forget that I'm even using a vpn. And the best part? I've got a special offer just for Success story listeners. So head over to nordvpn.com success and you'll not only get their best discount, but they'll throw in an extra four months on the two year plan. And don't worry about commitment because they offer a 30 day money back guarantee. The link is in the episode description. Trust me, it's worth checking out, especially if you travel or stream content regularly. That's nordvpn.com success thank you Netsuite for supporting today's episode. Now, what does the future hold for business? If you ask nine experts, you're going to get 10 answers. Bull market, Bear market Inflation up, inflation down. Honestly, I just need a crystal ball. But until we get one, over 41,000 businesses have found the next best thing. They future proofed their operations with NetSuite by Oracle, which is the number one cloud ERP. Imagine having your accounting, your financial management, your inventory, your HR all flowing together in one fluid platform. Here's what makes NetSuite different. It gives you one source of truth for your business. You get the visibility and control to make quick, confident decisions while others are guessing. You're working with real time data, insights, forecasting. You're basically looking into the future of your business with actionable data. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and helps you grab your biggest opportunities. And speaking of opportunities, they put together the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning and netsuite.com ScottClain this is the playbook for understanding how to use AI for your business. The guide is free. Go to netsuite.com ScottClary that is netsuite.com Scott Clary A big thank you to indeed for supporting Success Story because hiring people is one of the hardest things you're ever going to do as an entrepreneur, as a founder, as somebody who's trying to build a business. Because it's important to hire. Well, it's important to hire and find the right person, but it takes so much time. It's so labor intensive because like most entrepreneurs, you have a thousand things going on and there's a good chance that you just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find that great, amazing right fit candidate fast? It's easy. You just use indeed, because you don't have to waste Time struggling to get your job post seen on all these other job sites. If you're using Indeed, you can just use their sponsored jobs to help you stand out and hire fast. Your post jumps right to the top of the page for relevant candidates so you can reach exactly who you're looking for faster. And the results really speak for themselves. According to Indeed data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. You know what I love most about Indeed? It really just makes hiring so fast because everything is streamlined in one place. No more juggling multiple platforms or waiting weeks for the right candidate. How fast is Indeed in the minute I've been talking to you. 23 hires were made on Indeed according to Indeed Data worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job to get your jobs. More visibility@ Indeed.com Clary just go to Indeed.com Clary right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com Clary terms and conditions apply. If you're hiring, Indeed is all you need. And when you do that kind of work, it does carry over into your day to day. So when you do the breath work or even the psychedelics, when you sort of confront these demons when you're going in, you. You notice a significant decrease when you're about to go on air next time.

[Matt]

Oh, you're asking. Yeah, I'm.

[Scott Clary]

I have my mask. I have no idea. I haven't done breath work or psychedelics yet.

[Matt]

Yeah, definitely.

[Scott Clary]

I'm asking for me, dude. I'm asking for me. Because I've only dealt with it by just doing it more. So now I'm. My strategy is like throwing myself into more speaking engagements on purpose so that I just get more. I get more, I get more shots at it. And then every time it gets a little bit easier.

[Matt]

Isn't it funny? People would be like, hold on, I don't get it. Like, you have a problem speaking publicly, but you literally do it for a living. Like, you're speaking publicly now. I mean, okay, so there are humans in the room with you. But like, you talk for a living. I mean, it's funny. And no one would say, be like, there's no way Scott experiences stage fright like that. How would that be possible? He's so fluid. He's so confident. Like, that's how humans are, right? We're an interesting species. So, yeah, like, it works through reps, but for me, I'd had thousands of reps on live TV and I still was having panic, so I needed to figure out this other way out. And so there are a couple things that happen with altered states. One is the medicine itself helps relieve anxiety, right? Like especially with ketamine. They've done a lot of it, a lot of studies on ketamine, but also MDMA and the psilocybin mushrooms. And there is a physical impact host treatment of these things that it definitely reduces the incidence of anxiety and depression. But there are also images that you get from having these psychedelic experiences that you take with you and that I use as sort of like a treasure box to go back to for periods of calm, like I'm thinking about. You know, one of these things in ketamine is that I was flying over this forest, just like me, Matt or my avatar soaring over this forest and I perch on this high cliff and for some reason my avatar decided to take a nosedive into the forest and the dirt thousand feet below. And instead of just like smashing my face into the forest or the, the, the forest floor, the forest rose up to meet me. So in my afterwards as I'm doing what's called integration, which is like you think about and, and you get help with the psychologist of like why you saw the stuff you saw, what experiences you had and how to work that into your day to day life and gain meaning from it. I was like, that's like the trust fall of life. I'm always worried that I'm gonna let myself down or that someone's gonna let me down. So I have to have hyper control. But look at that. The earth met up, rose up to meet me. It's gonna be okay. Everything is gonna be okay. And it like maybe that wouldn't work for everybody. For me that gave me a really a real sense of peace, like I'm gonna be caught in the trustful of life. And so that's one of the things I keep in my little treasure box of images.

[Scott Clary]

Thanks for tuning in. If you found this valuable, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you want to dive deeper into this conversation, check out the links in the description to watch the full episode. See you in the next one. Today's success story podcast is brought to you by Vanta. Now listen up. This matters for your business. In today's digital landscape, security isn't optional, it's essential. Without it, deal, stall, sales cycle, stretch out and scaling becomes really difficult. Why? Because investors, customers, partners, they all expect businesses to demonstrate strong security practices before they commit to anything. And if you can't prove trust, you lose opportunities. So whether you're a startup founder trying to land that first big client or an established company scaling your security program, Vanta helps businesses of all sizes prove they're trustworthy by Automating compliance across 35 frameworks like SoC2, ISO 27001 and HIPAA. The exact certifications your prospects, your customers are demanding. And here's why you need to pay attention. Vanta gives you back precious time you're currently wasting on compliance. Their platform automates up to 90% of the tedious compliance work, and it helps you respond to those endless security questionnaires up to five times faster. And they also connect you with experts to get your security program running immediately. And the results? They speak for themselves. A recent IDC report found that Vanta customers achieve over $535,000 per year in benefits and the platform pays for itself in just three months. So join over 10,000 global companies like Atlassian, Cora and Factory who use Vanta to manage risk, improve security in real time, and don't miss this for a limited time, only my listeners can get a thousand dollars off Vanta. That's real money back in your pocket. Visit vanta.comscott now before this offer expires. That's V a n t a dot com Scott for $1,000 off a huge shout out to Federated Computer for supporting today's episode. Let me explain why I love Federated Computer. Why they are friends of success story. They are changing the way businesses buy software because we all need software to run our businesses. I don't care what kind of business you're building, but the best business software doesn't have to cost thousands of dollars each month. So Federated Computer replaces a lot of the software that you're using right now. Let me explain. The average typical Federated computer customer saves 75% or more on their software bill and gets great software, top notch customer service and support and a software solution that is uniquely installed for your business without any sort of surveillance or breaches of privacy. For example, if you use Google for email, Salesforce for CRM, Slack for team chat, list Monkey for customer acquisitions, and Airtable for data management. With a team of 10, you'd save $9,000 per year on software costs by switching to Federated Computer. They replace all of those. And what's wild is that the cost of Federated Computer doesn't grow as your team grows. You can use Federated Computer Savings to grow your business. Rather than feed the woke Silicon Valley software companies, the Federated Computer team literally invented cloud software. They actually have the patents to prove it. And they are taking a hammer to the ridicul high prices of business software that all entrepreneurs are suffering from. Federated Computer They've been a longtime supporter of Success story. They're offering 30% off their already low prices when you use a coupon code freelance. So go to www.federated.computer to begin saving 75% or more on your monthly software costs. That's www.federated.computer. these folks are going to do you a big favor. Check them out. Today's Success Story podcast is brought to you by Vanta. Now listen up. This matters for your business. In today's digital landscape, security isn't optional, it's essential. Without it, deal, stall, sales cycle, stretch out and scaling becomes really difficult. Why? Because investors, customers, partners, they all expect businesses to demonstrate strong security practices before they commit to anything. And if you can't prove trust, you lose opportunities. So whether you're a startup founder trying to land that first big client or an established company scaling your security program, Vanta helps businesses of all sizes prove they're trustworthy by Automating compliance across 35 frameworks like SoC2, ISO 27001 and HIPAA. The exact certifications your prospects, your customers are demanding. And here's why you need to pay attention. Vanta gives you back precious time you're currently wasting on compliance. Their platform automates up to 90% of the tedious compliance work, and it helps you respond to those endless security questionnaires up to five times faster. And they also connect you with experts to get your security program running immediately. And the results, they speak for themselves. A recent IDC report found that Vanta customers achieve over $535,000 per year in benefits. And the platform pays for itself in just three months. So join over 10,000 global companies like Atlassian, Cora and Factory who use Vanta to manage risk and prove security in real time. And don't miss this for a limited time, only my listeners can get a thousand dollars off Vanta. That's real money back in your pocket. Visit vanta.comscott now before this offer expires. That's V A N T a dot com Scott for a thousand dollars off a huge shout out to Federated Computer for supporting today's episode. Let me explain why I love Federated Computer. Why they are friends of Success story. They are changing the way businesses buy software because we all need software to run our businesses. I don't care what kind of business you're building, but the best business software doesn't have to cost thousands of dollars each month. So Federated Computer replaces a lot of the software that you're using right now. Let me explain. The average typical Federated computer customer saves 75% or more on their software bill and gets great software, top notch customer service and support and a software solution that is uniquely installed for your business without any sort of surveillance or breaches of privacy. For example, if you use Google for email, Salesforce for CRM, Slack for team chat, list, Monkey for customer acquisitions and Airtable for data management. With a team of 10, you'd save $9,000 per year on software costs by switching to Federated Computer. They replace all of those and what's wild is that the cost of Federated Computer doesn't grow as your team grows. You can use Federated Computer savings to grow your business rather than feed the woke Silicon Valley software companies. The Federated Computer team literally invented cloud software. They actually have the patents to prove it and they are taking a hammer to the ridiculously high prices of business software that all entrepreneurs are suffering from. Federated Computer They've been a longtime supporter of success story. They're offering 30% off their already low prices when you use a coupon code freelance. So go to www to begin saving 75% or more on your monthly software costs. That's www.federated.com. these folks are going to do you a big favor. Check them out.