Success Story with Scott D. Clary:

Lessons - The Hidden Psychology of Wall Street | Denise Shull - Performance Coach to Hedge Funds

Date: December 29, 2025

Overview

This “Lessons” episode features Scott D. Clary in conversation with Denise Shull, a performance coach specializing in high-stakes finance. Together, they unpack the hidden roles emotions play in Wall Street decision-making, the nuanced impact of fear and embarrassment, and why acknowledging rather than suppressing emotions leads to improved performance and better outcomes. Shull challenges traditional thinking on cognitive bias and offers practical insights for anyone seeking more effective decision-making, especially under pressure.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Emotions Drive Every Decision

• Denise Shull explains that most people underestimate how much emotions like fear or embarrassment silently shape their decisions—even among elite professionals in finance.
• Ignoring or suppressing these emotions leads to flawed judgments and missed opportunities for improvement.

2. Interrogating Your Feelings: The Core Habit

• The key question Shull teaches her clients (and listeners) to ask is:
  • “What am I feeling, and why am I feeling it?”
    • [01:22][Denise Shull]:
      "The question to learn to ask yourself and to answer accurately... is what am I feeling and why am I feeling it? And you want the answers to be the truth. Now that's easier said than done."
• Shull emphasizes that most people don’t truly know what they’re feeling or why, and coaching is needed to get to the accurate answer.

3. Myth-Busting Cognitive Bias

• Traditional behavioral finance suggests cognitive biases are hardwired—in other words, you can't help but fall prey to them.
• Shull argues this view is based on a “wrong model” of the brain:
  • [02:15][Denise Shull]:
    “Your human brain is biased and there's nothing you can do about it. And you're stuck with that. It's not true. It's based on the wrong model of the brain. ...like the juice is in the feeling.”
• She gives an example from her hedge fund clients: The urge to stick with a wrong prediction (confirmation bias) is less about mental laziness and more about fear—specifically, the potential embarrassment or negative reaction from colleagues.

4. The Danger of Avoiding Embarrassment

• Professionals often avoid facing early signs that their position or prediction might be wrong to avoid negative feelings, which only worsens outcomes:
  • [03:56][Denise Shull]:
    "If you face that scenario earlier in your process... the chances that you end up with the embarrassment go down. ...But if you delay because you don't really realize you're predicting this future embarrassment, the outcome is probably worse."
• Shull stresses the importance of identifying and confronting negative emotions early as a mechanism for course-correction.

5. Fear and “Negative” Emotions are Informational

• Fear, frustration, and disappointment act as signals, not obstacles; they offer vital information about what’s really happening in a decision scenario.
• [07:24][Denise Shull]:
  “If it weren't for fear, there's a lot of accomplishments we all have that we wouldn't have accomplished... In their pure form, fear, frustration, disappointment, have information for us.”
• Suppressing or ignoring such emotions only makes these signals more disruptive and harder to manage constructively.

6. Suppressing Emotion Backfires

• Research suggests that suppressing or “reframing” negative emotions backfires—especially when stakes are high or the issue truly matters.
  • [09:45][Denise Shull]: “If you reframed... on something that didn’t matter that much to you, it worked. But if you did it on something that actually really mattered to you, your anxiety levels went up and it didn’t work. Why? Because your psyche really is trying to keep you safe. ...What’s the point of the physical pain? The point ...is so that you do something about it. Why is it any different with emotional pain?”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On real emotional honesty:
  “A lot of my coaching is like helping people get the accurate answer because what they think they're feeling or why they think they're feeling is generally not what it is.”
  — Denise Shull [01:33]

• On the role of fear in achievement:
  “Who would really graduate from college if it weren't for fear? You do all this other stuff... but you're afraid of the outcome of only partying and not getting the actual degree.”
  — Denise Shull [07:44]

• On the consequences of suppression:
  “We've been told not to recognize any of them and we've certainly been told not to focus on the so called negative ones. In their pure form, they're actually trying to help us... The voice in your psyche gets louder, so they become more disruptive, not less disruptive.”
  — Denise Shull [08:34]

• On emotion as actionable feedback:
  “If you have some unpleasant feeling... the point of the physical pain is... so that you do something about it. Why is it any different with emotional pain?”
  — Denise Shull [10:24]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00–01:19] — Scott introduces the topic and frames the problem of hidden emotional drivers.
• [01:19–02:45] — Denise Shull on learning to ask “what am I feeling, why am I feeling it?” to override bias.
• [02:45–05:35] — Case study on confirmation bias, embarrassment, and course-correction in investment decisions.
• [06:56–08:55] — The value of fear and negative emotions as protective, informative forces.
• [09:02–10:50] — Research on acknowledging vs. reframing emotions, dangers of suppression, and why emotional signals matter.

Summary & Takeaways

Denise Shull’s core lesson: The real edge in high-stakes performance–whether on Wall Street or elsewhere–comes from accurately identifying and understanding one’s own emotions. Fear and embarrassment aren’t liabilities, but informational assets—signals to act on, not suppress. Recognizing and working with these emotional cues, rather than denying them, circumvents bias and leads to better, faster decision-making.

For listeners:
Shull’s advice applies far beyond finance—anyone making high-pressure decisions will benefit from her paradigm shift: The path to better judgment isn’t silencing emotions, but embracing and interrogating them for what they’re trying to tell you.

End of Summary