Scott Clary (4:12)

Excuse me. Which is interesting.

Dr. Michael Greger (4:14)

So if you could help somebody just understand not just why nutrient dense foods are good for longevity, but why nutrient dense foods are a key piece of, for example, like a weight loss diet or somebody trying to get back on track. How does that play into it? Because I think that the whole ozempic craze and the thing that is the most urgent, important in people's minds is how do I look better, a little bit better, and how do I fit into a slightly smaller size of clothing regardless of whether or not that should be their main priority. Because I think longevity is a pretty damn good priority as well. That's the reality that people deal with. That's why people jump on these fad diets.

Dr. John McDougall (4:52)

Yeah, diets don't work by definition because going on a diet implies at some point you're going to be going off a diet. Right. Permanent weight loss requires permanent dietary change. Healthier habits just have to become a way of life. And so if they're going to be life long, you want them to lead it to a long Life. You know, the goal of weight loss is not to fit into a skinnier casket, right. Thankfully, the good news is, is that the single best diet proven for weight loss just so happens to be the safest, cheapest way to eat for the longest, healthiest life. And that is a whole food plant based diet shown in the broad study to be the single most effective weight loss diet ever published in the peer reviewed medical literature that didn't restrict portions ever. So the most effective diet also happens to be the healthiest diet when it comes to longevity. This is the diet of that every single blue zone centers their, their diets on. There's been over 150 dietary surveys in the world's longest living populations. I mean, they all center their diets around these whole plant foods, eating about 95% plant based and centering the primary protein source as one of the legumes, beans, chickpeas or lentils.

Dr. Michael Greger (6:03)

And that's. So when you look at all the different diets out there, I know that you don't like low carb diets or no carb diets. I know that that's something that you don't subscribe to. So if you look at the ratios of legumes, that's the majority of your diet. How do you think about the other pieces? What are the healthier carbs? Or I mean carbs can come from legumes as well, but the healthier carbs and the healthier proteins, like are you including rice? Are you including potatoes? I guess sweet potato. Are you including any kind of meat at all? And if so, what meat would be the best to fit into that perfect ideal diet?

Dr. John McDougall (6:36)

Yeah, no, no, I'm so glad. It really has to be like, you know, the food industry, the processed food industry, love talking about macros. Why? Because they can make you any kind of junk food you want. You want low fat junk food, boom, snack, well, cookies, you want low carb junk food, boom, we got that. You want ironically paleo junk food.

Scott Clary (6:57)

Oh, we'll give you that too.

Dr. John McDougall (6:58)

Right. The one kind of junk they can't make is real food. Right. They just can't make money off of it. So they don't, they don't want you to talk about foods, they want you to talk about macronutrients because. Oh, oh, oh, they want you to talk about nutrients. Right? That's why Froot Loops has 13 vitamins and minerals. Right, right on the COVID Right, right. As if, you know, eating marshmallows for breakfast is the way to get your, the only way to get your, you know, 13 vitamins and minerals. But okay, so it's not. So look, I mean, you know, you know, carbohydrates can mean kidney beans or jelly beans, right? I mean, you know, you can't just talk about are carbs good or bad. Right. Protein could be, you know, pork rinds or you know, could be, you know, you know, fats could be, you know, you know, Crisco trans fats or walnuts or something. Right. And so we have to talk about food, right? That's what we eat. We don't need nutrients being food. Okay. So when we talk about foods, the healthiest sources of protein are legumes, food, but also whole grains, nuts, diseases can contribute. We're looking at 0.8 grams per healthy kilogram body weight, which is the official recommendation National Academies of Science. In terms of carbohydrates, the healthiest car. Again, whole plant foods are the healthiest source of all three classes of macronutrients. Where are we going to get our fats from? Ideally mostly from nuts and seeds. Where are we going to get our carbohydrates from? We are going to get them from, you know, from you know, whole grains. Sweet potatoes be great. White potatoes would not be a good source.

Dr. Michael Greger (8:27)

No.

Dr. John McDougall (8:29)

As the one of the few whole plant foods actually associated with increased risk of, of disease, including diabetes. And stay away from the refined grains like white rice, et cetera. And so that's. And now in terms of, in terms of meat, right. We should really try to eat primarily plants, but not necessarily exclusively plants. Right. A plant based diet is really just about maximizing the intake of the healthiest foods. Right. As a physician, you know these labels like vegetarian or vegan, that just tells me what you don't eat. I mean to actually eat vegetables. Right. And of course it doesn't matter what you eat. Birthdays, holidays, special occasions, right. It's the day to day stuff that adds up on a day to day basis. Really should try to be healthy centering our diets around natural foods. The, the best meats would be a wild, wild game. So venison in Australia, kangaroo. So extraordinarily lean, right. Like you know, moose, elk, like 4% calories from fat. So and why we care about fat calories is because we care about saturated animal fat. Raising our LDL cholesterol is primary risk factor number one killer of men and women, heart disease. But 4%, in fact, chicken used to be only 2% fat 100 years ago according to the USDA. Now it's over 20% fat. We've selectively bred these animals to be extra juicy. And how do we make them? You know, we marble their flesh with saturated fat. That's why. So for example, grass fed beef, a significantly less saturated fat than grain fed cattle. And so it would be kind of the leaner, the better would be the way to go. And there's just nothing even comes close to the leanness of, of, of game. And of course, it would be caught with lead free ammunition if you're doing it on your own.

Dr. Michael Greger (10:11)

Wow. Okay.

Scott Clary (10:12)

Amazing.

Dr. Michael Greger (10:12)

And I think that that even is, that's so telling that even chicken, that everybody assumes is the healthiest, there's more.

Dr. John McDougall (10:19)

Calories from fat than protein in chicken these days. I mean, it's just absolutely extraordinary.

Dr. Michael Greger (10:24)

Wow.

Dr. John McDougall (10:24)

In fact, the beef industry loves all money. Yeah. Well, you can do studies now where you can randomize people to eat beef versus chicken and see no difference in cholesterol. Where the whole sense, oh, get rid of red meat. Go over to, you know, why me? No, because you can get a leaner cut of beef than you can actually get, you know, eating, you know, eating a thigh or something. So. So. Yeah, yeah, so. So, yeah, if you can find it, you know, something like grass fed beef, uh, it's probably, probably the easiest kind of. It's not. I mean that's not closest wildcat game. But in terms of, you know, what.

Dr. Michael Greger (11:02)

You can find out there, not everybody's going out with lead free ammunition and hunting their own thing.

Dr. John McDougall (11:07)

They're just trying to farm. There's farmed venison. Yeah, I mean, so they actually, you know, I mean, you should, I don't know, you could probably buy it online, I don't know.

Dr. Michael Greger (11:15)

But the point is, the point is you have to, you have to learn and you have to do your own research because the things that are marketed to us as healthy are definitely not always healthy. I'm very curious because you've written both how not to die and how to age. How not. Sorry, how not to die and how not to age.

Scott Clary (11:32)

Excuse me.

Dr. Michael Greger (11:33)

Not how to age. How not to age. When you compare those two ideas, what to you is the difference between not dying and not aging?

Scott Clary (11:42)

Hey, everyone. Scott here. I just want to take a second and say thanks for listening to the podcast over the past couple years. Obviously this wouldn't be possible without each and every one of you. I have a favor to ask, so I would love to get some more information about you and why you listen to the podcast and why you listen to the show and why you tune in every week and I have put together a short survey and we are using this to help us sort of inform what type of content we want to create and the direction of the podcast going forward. This information is not shared with anyone else, so this is just for us internally and I put together a link so ScottD Clary.com survey where you can go and you can fill in some information so we can know what kind of content you love. Also, for the first 100 people that respond to the survey, you will be entered into a draw for a $100Amazon gift card. So we'll be giving out one of those to the first people that respond. It should not take more than two minutes of your time to fill out the whole survey. It's really not that long and it will help you shape the future of the podcast. So I really appreciate each and every one of you and thank you for listening. I just want to take a second and thank Cornbread Hemp for supporting today's episode. Now, Cornbread Hemp CBD gummies have been this really nice addition to my wellness toolkit. I don't use them every day, just when I want to unwind after those extra busy weeks, but they're perfect for those moments when you want to take the edge off and just find your balance. Really just shut off from work. And what makes them special is how Cornbread Hemp crafts them. They only use a flour of USDA organic hemp implants. That's the best part for the purest, most potent experience. No fillers, no artificial fluff, just clean full spectrum goodness in delicious watermelon, berry and peach flavor. I keep them in my nightstand for those moments when I just need a little extra help relaxing. And I love how transparent they are too. Every batch is third party lab tested so you know exactly what you're getting. And they put together a special offer for all Success Story podcast listeners. All listeners can save 30% off their first order. Just head to cornbread hemp.com success and use code success at checkout. That's cornbread hemp.com success code success for 30% off your first order of these amazing gummies. This podcast is brought to you in part by Stash. Are you still putting off saving and investing? Because you'll get to it someday. Stash turns someday into today. Stash isn't just an investing app. It's a registered investment advisory that combines automated investing with dependable financial strategies to help you reach your goals faster. They'll provide you with personalized advice on what to invest in based on your goals or if you just want to sit back and watch your money go to work, you can opt into their award winning expert managed portfolio that picks stocks for you. Stash has helped millions of Americans reach their financial goals and starts at just $3 per month. Don't let your savings sit around, make it work harder for you. Go to get.stash.comsuccess story and see how you can receive $25 towards your first stock purchase. And to view important disclosures, that's get.stash.comsuccess Story paid non client endorsement, not representative of all clients and not a guarantee. Investment advisory services offered by Stash Investments LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Investing involves risks and investments may lose value. Offers subject to T's and C's.

Dr. John McDougall (15:03)

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So if you do autopsies of centenarians, those delivered to over BE100. This is a survey of 13,000 autopsies. In every single case death was from disease. Even though they appeared perfectly healthy before dying, their doctors were like, oh, clean bill of health if you actually cut them open. Every single one died from disease. And most commonly heart disease, which is number one killer of those you know, younger than that. And so if death is from disease, then why wasn't my book how not to die all you need as an anti aging book? Because it was just first half of the books, just 15 chapters each of the 15 leading causes of death talking about the role of diet may play in preventing, arresting, reversing each of our top 15 killers. And so it's like, well then, I mean if you check off the boxes, what's the problem? Well, it turns out that the single greatest risk factor for many of these diseases is actually aging. Such that even if all cancer were cured overnight, we would only increase average lifespan by about three years. Why? Because if one age related disease doesn't kill you, another one will. The only reason you died from cancer, you didn't die from a heart attack is because you died from cancer first. But you were gonna die, you know, next month from a heart attack anyway. And so yes, you know, having high cholesterol can increase your risk of having a heart attack as much as 20 fold. But you know, an 80 year old has 500 times the risk as an 18 year old in terms of heart disease. And because aging affects so many different diseases, if we slow down the aging process then you can instead of playing whack a mole which each individual disease, you can reduce your risk of kind of age related diseases across the board which are Many of our leading killers.

Dr. Michael Greger (16:50)

So when you see, when you sort of all, all of your work and all the teaching is really just like you're eating whole foods. You're, you're trying to slow down your aging. You shouldn't have the food contributing to you dying quick or God forbid. But when you look at people like, for example, Brian Johnson, who's doing everything under the sun to reverse aging, what percentage of all the stuff that he does actually slows down aging versus if you just ate a whole food diet?

Dr. John McDougall (17:20)

Well, so one thing he does is eat a plant based diet. And so I mean that's, that's one of the things that's actually evidence based. And then he just tries all sorts of crazy crap that doesn't have any, you know, evidence base and look good for him. Right. I mean, you know, I mean, it's kind of interesting experimental data, kind of as a guinea pig, I certainly wouldn't do have the things I. Someone just told me he just did plasma phisis. Basically like remove all the liquid portion of your blood and like replace with like, you know, Alan water or something. I just like, that is like nutty. I mean, that's what you do when people are like dying from some like, horrible, you know.

Dr. Michael Greger (17:56)

Boy, I think I saw that on his Instagram. It was absolutely wild, absolutely amazing.

Dr. John McDougall (18:01)

I mean, yeah, that's how we do that voluntarily. But it's like, you know, he's like doing it for science, God damn it. And okay, I just, I just don't want people to go out there and necessarily follow in those footsteps until we can actually prove something is useful. But no, he is doing some things that are just, you know, that really are consistent with the longevity literature. He just kind of takes it an extra step too far, kind of beyond, beyond the evidence base. But, you know, that's how we learn new things as we kind of go beyond the evidence base and kind of try things out.

Dr. Michael Greger (18:29)

Thanks for tuning in. If you found this valuable, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode episode. And if you want to dive deeper into this conversation, check out the links in the description to watch the full episode. See you in the next one.

Scott Clary (18:51)

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