Marc Brackett - Yale Emotional Intelligence Expert | How to Effortlessly Master Emotions

Summary

Success Story with Scott D. Clary

Episode: Marc Brackett - Yale Emotional Intelligence Expert | How to Effortlessly Master Emotions

Date: February 13, 2026

---

Overview

In this episode, Scott D. Clary interviews Dr. Marc Brackett, psychologist, best-selling author, and founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. Together, they explore emotional intelligence (EQ) as a foundational life skill, focusing on why mastering our emotions—not just IQ—is key to success, wellbeing, and effective relationships. Brackett shares his "RULER" framework for emotional intelligence, personal anecdotes, actionable strategies for both adults and children, and his vision for making emotional education mainstream.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Marc’s Personal Journey & Purpose (00:00–01:02)

• Marc opens up about his childhood trauma—being sexually abused—and how he’s channeled these experiences into helping others rather than defining himself by them.
  • Notable Quote:
    “I don't define myself as a sexually abused person. I define myself as a human being who experienced childhood sexual abuse. But I'm sublimating that negative experience into trying to make the world a better place.” (00:00)
• His work is driven by a desire to help others navigate big feelings and trauma productively.

---

2. Introduction to Emotional Intelligence & RULER Framework (01:29–05:36)

• Defining Emotional Intelligence:
  • Awareness of emotions, their impact, and understanding how they affect yourself and others.
  • Marc’s “RULER” framework:
    • Recognizing emotions in oneself and others.
    • Understanding the causes and consequences.
    • Labeling emotions accurately.
    • Expressing emotions appropriately.
    • Regulating emotions effectively.
  • Notable Quote:
    “You can make good decision feeling any emotion as long as you're aware that you're feeling the emotion and regulating it effectively when you're making the decision.” (01:02)
• Most people receive little to no formal emotional education (only 10% learned strategies growing up; only 5% in school) (04:45).

---

3. The Regulation Trap—Why Quick Fixes Don’t Work (05:36–09:41)

• Popular trends like mindfulness and breathwork aren’t sufficient if you skip recognizing and labeling emotions.
• We “hack” remedies because confronting the full scope of emotional work is daunting.
• The culture of instant fixes (social media, viral “wellness” bites) doesn’t address deeper emotional needs.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Everybody's obsessed with breathing... but it's not a sufficient strategy for dealing with your emotional life.” (06:21)

---

4. What We Missed in Our Emotional Education (10:13–12:23)

• Most emotional “education” comes from parental modeling—often incomplete or unhelpful due to generational lack of awareness.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Most of the mindset they give... It's just their lived experience. That's all they're putting on you.” (10:19)
• It’s never too late to learn, but as adults, the process can feel overwhelming at first.

---

5. No Emotion is “Bad”—Reframing Our Beliefs (12:23–15:09)

• Jealousy, anxiety, anger: these so-called “bad” emotions are neutral—they contain valuable information about our needs, values, and desires.
  • Notable Quote (Marc):
    “There's no such thing as a bad emotion. How does that make you feel?” (12:23)
• The mindset shift: emotions are signals, not judgments; the aim is to understand, not suppress them.
• Notable Quote:
  “Anxiety is a signal… I don't get anxious about the things I don't care about. I do get anxious about achieving the goals that are important to me.” (13:56)

---

6. Learning Agency & Self-Efficacy Over Emotions (15:09–17:20)

• Believing you can handle your feelings is crucial—this is distinct from thinking you have to avoid them.
• The strategies passed down (even humorously, like Marc's mother’s “nervous breakdown” routine) aren’t always healthy, but anyone can learn alternatives.
  • Notable Quote:
    “We are not our feelings. Our feelings are experiences. And if we identify as an emotion... our mindset around it is not helpful.” (20:00)

---

7. Emotional Identity vs. Emotional Experience (20:00–22:22)

• Increasingly, people—especially teens—identify as an emotion (“I am anxious”) instead of experiencing an emotion (“I feel anxious”).
• Social comparison (supercharged by social media) amplifies this effect.

---

8. Mislabeling Emotions: Real-World Consequences (22:22–29:39)

• Students often report “stress,” but Marc’s research shows it’s frequently envy or jealousy masked as stress.
• Mislabeling leads to wrong coping strategies (e.g., yoga for jealousy).
  • Notable Quote:
    “They were labeling it as stress... it's envy and jealousy.” (23:00)
• Without granularity in emotion language, people default to vague words like “good,” “fine,” or “bad,” which hinders regulation.

---

9. Naming and Labeling—A Core Skill (25:04–28:46)

• Specificity (“Is it anxiety, stress, pressure, fear, overwhelmed...?”) is freeing.
• “Label it to regulate it.”
• Sometimes simply naming the emotion gives relief; other times, deeper regulation strategies are required.

---

10. Strategies for Regulation & Real-Life Applications (28:46–35:20)

• Deactivating with breath/mindfulness before responding when triggered.
• “Emotions are impermanent”—remind yourself strong feelings will pass.
• Attribution: Recognize when emotions spill from one context to another (e.g., home anger into work judgment).
  • Notable Quote:
    “Incidental emotional leakage... I'm angry at my home life, and I'm not processing it well. And what I'm allowing it to do is subconsciously influence the choice that has nothing to do with the argument I had at home.” (33:18)
• Practical advice: pause and attribute emotions before making decisions or responding.

---

11. Early Curriculum: Teaching Emotional Intelligence in Schools (35:20–38:24)

• Marc’s “RULER” curriculum is in 5,000+ schools (pre-K to high school), fostering language, strategies, and application for both children and educators.
  • Notable Quote:
    “We provide the language for them to learn. And then there's all these exercises... And they problem-solve through that.” (36:21)
• Results: Better mental health, physical health, academic performance, and happiness. Meta-analyses confirm these effects.

---

12. Adult Pathways to Emotional Growth (41:20–44:38)

• Start with reading (Marc recommends his books, “Permission to Feel” and “Dealing with Feeling”), but real growth requires practice and community.
• Anecdote: A 94-year-old wrote Marc, lamenting not having this education earlier, showing it's never too late.
  • Notable Quote:
    “No age where this can't be learned.” (43:14)
• Pushback: Some argue it’s the parent’s job, but most parents haven't received this education themselves.

---

13. Choosing & Differentiating Regulation Strategies (45:31–51:29)

• Regulation isn’t “one size fits all”—context, personality, goals, and relevance matter.
• Use strategies like psychological distancing (e.g., “Is this really that important to my relationship?” in the midst of minor conflict).
• Be aware of overreactions triggered by past trauma—work to place these experiences in context rather than being controlled by them.
  • Notable Quote:
    “I don't deny it, I don't ignore it, but I have put it in its place in my life… The goal of life is to move forward, not backward.” (50:00)

---

14. Emotional Regulation and Health (52:35–55:30)

• Emotional regulation boosts:
  • Physical & mental health
  • Quality of relationships
  • Longevity (lower cortisol, better immune function)
• Tangible strategy: Don’t discuss negative issues before bed (to avoid cortisol spikes and improve sleep).
  • Notable Quote:
    “If you can deal with your emotions, with the anger, the frustration, the overwhelm... you're going to have better physical health, you're going to have better mental health, better relationships.” (52:35)

---

15. Granularity and the Power of Accurate Labeling (55:30–57:52)

• Different emotions (anxiety, stress, fear, pressure, overwhelm) have distinct causes and require unique strategies.
  • Notable Quote:
    “If you don't have emotional intelligence, you don't always achieve your goals in life.” (57:46)

---

16. The Emotional Regulation Budget (57:58–64:10)

• Everyone has a limited “budget” for emotional regulation influenced by:
  • Sleep
  • Nutrition
  • Physical Activity
• Poor choices, like lack of sleep or poor diet, diminish your ability to regulate emotions.
  • Notable Quote:
    “The first thing I ask them is, how was your sleep last night?... You're not going to be the best version of yourself. You need more budget.” (59:50)

---

17. Building Positive Habits and Identity (69:49–74:48)

• Over time, effective strategies like regular exercise (or emotional hygiene) become self-affirming habits—part of your identity.
• The goal: “See yourself as a highly skilled, emotionally intelligent person.” (72:19)
• Battling negative self-talk is key to progress.

---

18. Emotionally Intelligent Leadership & The Ripple Effect (75:26–82:07)

• True success is self-regulation and helping others do the same.
• Emotionally intelligent leaders foster healthier, more successful organizations—empirical research backs this.
  • Notable Quote:
    “We are physically healthier, mentally healthier, get better sleep... and have higher life satisfaction when we work with bosses who are highly emotionally intelligent.” (80:10)
• At work, suppressing emotions reduces performance; addressing stress with real support boosts it.

---

19. Why Emotional Intelligence Matters Now More Than Ever (82:07–88:06)

• We’re in an age of overdrive, social comparison, and instant distraction (especially for youth)—making emotional regulation critical.
• Mental health crises are rising and quick fixes don't work.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Our society is willing to spend more money and resources on treating people with mental illness than knowing... early prevention is much more cost effective.” (85:58)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You can make good decision feeling any emotion as long as you're aware that you're feeling the emotion and regulating it effectively when you're making the decision.” (Marc, 01:02)
• “There's no such thing as a bad emotion.” (Marc, 12:23)
• “We are not our feelings. Our feelings are experiences.” (Marc, 20:00)
• “Incidental emotional leakage... I'm angry at my home life, and I'm not processing it well. And what I'm allowing it to do is subconsciously influence the choice that has nothing to do with the argument I had at home.” (Marc, 33:18)
• “Label it to regulate it.” (Marc, summarized strategy)
• “There’s no age where this can’t be learned.” (Marc, 43:14)
• “The goal of life is to move forward, not backward.” (Marc, 51:29)
• “Our society is willing to spend more money and resources on treating people with mental illness than... early prevention is much more cost effective.” (Marc, 85:58)
• “Permission to feel. It's okay to have these feelings. There's no bad emotion. And our job... is to give everybody we love and care about permission to feel, too.” (Marc, 92:23)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–01:02: Marc’s personal story and motivation
• 01:29–05:36: RULER framework overview
• 05:36–09:41: Quick fixes & emotional “hacks” vs. real work
• 12:23–15:09: Reframing “bad” emotions
• 20:00–22:22: The risk of identifying as an emotion
• 23:00–29:39: Mislabeling emotions (envy, stress, jealousy)
• 28:46–35:20: Specific strategies for in-the-moment regulation
• 35:20–38:24: Emotional intelligence curriculum in schools
• 41:20–44:38: How adults can build emotional intelligence
• 45:31–51:29: Regulation strategies & managing past triggers
• 52:35–55:30: Physical, relational, and mental health outcomes of emotional regulation
• 55:30–57:52: Accurate labeling and strategy selection
• 57:58–64:10: Managing your emotional regulation “budget”
• 69:49–74:48: Habits, identity, and battling negative self-talk
• 75:26–82:07: Emotional intelligence in leadership and organizations
• 82:07–88:06: Emotional regulation in a hyperstimulated, comparison-driven age

---

Final Takeaways

• Emotional intelligence can and must be learned—at any age.
• No emotion is “bad”; emotion is information.
• Labeling and accurately understanding your feelings is the first step to regulation.
• Meaningful, lasting change comes from daily practice, not quick fixes.
• Leaders and organizations benefit profoundly by valuing emotional skills.
• Creating emotionally intelligent cultures—at home, school, and work—is critical for a healthier, happier society.

---

Recommended Resources

• Marc Brackett’s books:
  • “Permission to Feel”
  • “Dealing with Feeling”
• App: How We Feel (Free, co-developed with Pinterest’s Ben Silberman)
• Marc’s website (for talks, articles, and further reading)

---

Closing Reflection

Marc closes with advice to his younger self and everyone:

“Permission to feel. It's okay to have these feelings. There's no bad emotion. And our job... is to give everybody we love and care about permission to feel, too.” (92:23)

Transcript

[A]

I was sexually abused as a kid for five years of my childhood. I don't define myself as a sexually abused person. I define myself as a human being who experienced childhood sexual abuse. But I'm sublimating that negative experience into trying to make the world a better place.

[B]

What if the key to peak performance isn't intelligence, but emotional intelligence? Mark Brackett is a psychologist, best selling author, and the founding director of the Yale center for Emotional Intelligence.

[A]

I have a framework which I call ruler, Recognizing emotions in oneself. Another understanding the causes and the consequences of emotion. And so this recognizing regulation piece, probably the most important skill anybody can learn. In my research, I surveyed thousands of people across the world. Only 10% of the sample say they learn anything about that. Only 5% said they learned something about it in school. So we have masses of people who are experiencing a lot of strong emotions. They don't know what to do with them.

[B]

For decades, he's been at the forefront of research, helping leaders, educators and organizations understand the power of emotions in driving performance, relationships and well being. Today, she's here to show us why emotions aren't obstacles to success. They're the strategy.

[A]

One of the things I talk about is how we're so desperate for the quick fix. But you don't deal with your emotions using these quick fixes. It's a life strategy. You can make good decision feeling any emotion as long as you're aware that you're feeling the emotion and regulating it effectively when you're making the decision.

[B]

So, Mark, you're the expert in emotional intelligence. So before we sort of go into all of that, what does emotional intelligence actually mean?

[A]

Can I put it back on you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What do you think it means?

[B]

It means being aware of what you're feeling, being in touch with your thoughts, your emotions, and understanding maybe not just how they impact you, but also how they impact other people.

[A]

That's pretty good.

[B]

Is that a decent.

[A]

Yeah, not bad.

[B]

Okay, podcast over. We're good.

[A]

We're done.

[B]

So what is it? Is that. So that's like, that's, that's a piece of it. A piece of it. What else is it?

[A]

So I have a framework which I call ruler, which is R U L E R Recognizing emotions in oneself. Another which is what you are getting to and we can go deeper in any of these skills that you want. The second is understanding the causes and the consequences of emotion. So I'm recognizing and feeling slightly pleasant and my energy is low. Well, why, what's going on? I'm, you know, here. Well, that's not what I'm actually feeling. I'm feeling pleasant and high energy. Well, why, Mark? You know, oh, I'm about to this great podcast with Scott. Okay, so how are you really feeling? That's the L labeling emotion. So I'm feeling. I would say I'm feeling a multiple set of emotions, like feeling excitement and a little anticipation, maybe, because I don't know where we're going. And so that's my R U L Recognizing, understanding, and labeling my own emotions. And I also tried to do that with you. So how are you feeling today?

[B]

Good. Excited.

[A]

Can't say the word good with me.

[B]

Oh, I can't say the word good.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I would say that I'm excited. A little bit anxious. Always. Whenever I'm trying to show up and perform and make sure that I can keep up with somebody who's really smart, because that's. That's my job. That's what I do for a living. But it's always. It's fun because I get to, like, dive into your world.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I always want to make sure that, like, I pull the best out of you. I. I don't know. Podcasting gives me energy in general. And every time I have this conversation or a conversation with somebody, which is why I think I'm doing the right thing as a job. After the conversation, I've learned so much. Like, I just feel like I'm just on, like, a little bit of a high because we've been learning and just vibing with each other for the past, you know, hour and a half. So I'm excited for the conversation. I'm excited for what I learned. I'm excited also because it's kind of selfishly, podcasting is, like, the best education you're ever going to get if you host a podcast. I think you're right, but I don't know if those are all emotions. Some of these are.

[A]

Yeah, they are.

[B]

They are. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. You're excited. I mean, your primary emotion is excitement. You can have more than one, by the way. Let's stick with excitement as your primary. So that's R U L. So we're both excited. Look at that. It's not always common. Then you have to decide. Okay, well, can I talk about it? You have a lot of people who are in big jobs, workplace. How much do we talk about our feelings in this?

[B]

Never.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

HR Is telling us not to.

[A]

Yeah, there you go. The research and psychology would say otherwise, but yes. And that's interesting to think about. Right? Kind of the juxtaposition of what we know is best for people's psychological and for their health and performance and what HR wants us to do and not do. That's another podcast. And then there's the final R of regulation, which is the topic of my new book, which is called Dealing with Feeling, which is how do we deal with these emotions that we have? What are the strategies? And just a piece about that. So I wrote a book years ago called Permission to Feel very proud. It's 30 languages I've run around the world 17 times. And then the pandemic hits and everybody's like, mark, thank you for giving me permission to feel. But what the do I do with all these feelings? And I also really struggled during the pandemic. My center closed down. The world felt like it was coming to an end. My mother in law moved in with us. It was a bit of a mess. And so this regulation piece for me is probably the most important skill anybody can learn.

[B]

So regulation, because this seems to be a buzzword now, but I feel like people are going after regulation without tackling the first few letters of this framework. And I think that that's probably why they don't do a good job of actually regulating themselves. Because if we actually go through recognizing, understanding, labeling and expressing, if we don't do that and we just try and regulate, then I'm assuming there's a really, really high chance we're going to fail.

[A]

Yeah, because you can't just regulate for regulation's sake.

[B]

But that's what people are trying to do.

[A]

Everybody's trying to control themselves.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, that's, I think that's, you know, the good and the bad of the mindfulness world. Right. Everybody's breathing, everybody's meditating. They don't know why they're meditating necessarily.

[B]

There's tick tock on it.

[A]

You know, if all else fails, just breathe. Well, you've been doing that anyway and it's not working. So the, Sorry. You know, the, everybody's obsessed with breathing, which by the way is really important, but it's. And not, it's not a sufficient strategy for dealing with your emotional life. It's like, you know, if you're in a relationship or your boss is like, you know, being difficult, you can't be like, I'm just going to breathe. Well, your boss is going to be there tomorrow, so you'd be breathing a lot.

[B]

Why do we. Well, I guess there's probably a psychological reason. It probably just seems like a hack to tie a result to a simple action. It is, and it probably helps us avoid the deep work that we should be doing by going through this framework and probably some of the others that you have. So this is why everybody is what, depressed, has high anxiety. You mentioned that there was difficulty during COVID when you wrote your first book. But I intuitively feel with no data and you're the person who puts out PubMed peer reviewed. So you can probably back this up that post Covid, the world is like a little bit off.

[A]

It is emotionally, yes. I think the disconnection, you know, the loneliness that, you know, we really felt then has still prevailed. You know, obviously people are on their phones more than they've ever been before. We know that research. There's a lot of loneliness and disconnection now. Not all loneliness is bad. It's good to be alone. It's nice to be able to reflect. I actually love being alone. I'm an introvert, so like, I love alone time. I don't want to be lonely though. Difference or alienated, you know, left out, excluded. Yikes. But I think a, we know that, you know, there's. People are worried about climate change, people are worried about the wars that we have constantly going on. People are very worried about politics right now. People are worried about violence in society right now. There's a lot of, of things that are kind of just happening for young children too. It's like they haven't been alive when there hasn't been a war or some kind of crisis and people have not learned what to do with it. So in my research for my book, what I did was I surveyed thousands of people across the world and I just asked them, I mean, a lot of questions. But the one I'll focus on now was what did you learn growing up about how to deal with your feelings? And nothing. Yeah.

[B]

Is probably the answer.

[A]

Yeah. Like only 10% of the people that I survey and this is like very, you know, high performing people, big business people, teachers, kids, you know, all over the place. Only 10% of the sample say they learn anything about that. Only 5% said they learned something about it in school. So we have masses of people who are experiencing a lot of strong emotions and they don't know what to do with them. And so they're, you know, one of the things I talk about is how we're so desperate for the quick fix. You know that one Instagram post that's like 10 seconds long that says, you know, that I won't mention the person's name who's driving me crazy right now? But you know, gets on and like is sitting in the car, I'm throwing my anxiety out the door, you know, and then I say, I'm thinking to myself, that door is going to slam in your face so fast you don't even know it's happening. But you know, we, that's what we're desperate for.

[B]

It's.

[A]

We're desperate for feeling better. But you don't feel better or deal with your emotions using these quick fixes. It's, it's a, it's a life strategy.

[B]

And that, that's probably overwhelming for people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because if you're talking about. So just to, to clarify. So emotional intelligence, how do we achieve that? Well, through emotional education, through learning. You have to learn learning. But if we think for a second, okay, I've never gotten emotional education from, from ever from. There was no point.

[A]

Get some, you know, we got it from our parents. You know, I learned a lot about emotional intelligence.

[B]

Like what is not what it's not right. And I think that. Listen, listen, I love my parents very much and they gave me a very good childhood. But also you have to understand that most of the teaching and most of the mindset they give over to whether or not it's with work and money and love and emotions. It's just their lived experience. That's all they're putting on you.

[A]

That's all they know.

[B]

And they don't know anything else. So it's very hard for them to subjectively teach something that they haven't experienced themselves 100%. It's actually impossible. Really. Unless you study it for a living and then you understand how.

[A]

Unless your kid gets a PhD in psychology and becomes your teacher.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Which didn't work out 100%.

[B]

But, but we can talk about, we can talk about. Cause I know that your mom has given you shit sometimes too for not, what, eating your own dog food to a degree during COVID But yes, so. Or maybe it was your mother in law. I don't.

[A]

It was my mother in law.

[B]

Mother in law.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

By the way, mine also moved in with us during COVID Oh goodness. Yes. So it was actually, it's. We weren't married. We weren't married. But I say mother in law. It was girlfriend's mother who moved in with us. Plus her two sisters moved in with us during COVID too. It was a wild, A wild house. But that's how we got so close so quickly and we're still together, so something worked out.

[A]

All right. Good.

[B]

But if people are thinking, okay, I don't have any emotional education in my life ever. It seems overwhelming to start now because we have our whole worldview formed. So where do people start? Like where do we go for emotional education?

[A]

Well, I mean, obviously people like me write books on this and have apps. I have an app called How We Feel that I created with the co founder of Pinterest and our teams. That's very helpful. It's free to build your emotional self awareness, but I do think reading is a good way to do it because you have to get your head into it. And I think the first step is mindset shifting. There's no such thing as a bad emotion. How does that make you feel?

[B]

Confused, because I guess you're honest. Yeah, confused because I feel like there's some emotions that don't serve me. Like I feel like jealous, jealousy, envy, sometimes anger. Like I feel like there's there. There are not. They're not aligned with who I want to be or they're not. Like, I understand why they exist from like an evolutionary perspective, but I also don't think that they really serve like my goals, for example. So I don't see how they would be a benefit.

[A]

Well, they're going to come whether you like them or not because life is filled with a roller coaster ride of emotions. I feel envy all the time. I watch some people present, I do a lot of public speaking and I was like, oh gosh, that person has the best timing or they tell the best jokes, or they know how to bring that audience on a journey. That's crazy. But I frame it as, Mark, you could learn that you're a freaking good presenter too. You're just going to tweak some things based on that as opposed to thinking they're better than I am, I'm less than. So it's a mindset just like anxiety. A lot of people think anxiety is a bad emotion. I have a good friend who's a scientist of anxiety and she would interview me about this and she said, well, what do you get anxious about, Mark? I said, well, I get anxious. I want to make sure that my research papers are the highest quality. I get anxious about fundraising because I do a lot of fundraising and I want to make sure we have the funding to do our research. She's like, well, what do you have in common with those? What's the theme? And I said, they're important to me. And she goes, yeah, well then why would anxiety be bad if you're anxious about the things that actually are meaningful to you and powerful to you? And it's a reframe because she's right. I don't get anxious about the things I don't care about. I do get anxious about achieving the goals that are important to me. And then I could strategize to do a good job to achieve that outcome.

[B]

So it's a signal.

[A]

It's a signal just like anger. Anger is about injustice. But why would that be a bad thing? If someone's treating you unfairly, it's a signal, hey, this is unfair. We got to do something about it. As opposed to allowing yourself to just be crapped on.

[B]

So if we understand that's the first.

[A]

Reframe, that's a big one.

[B]

It's a huge one. Because I think that most people would intuitively feel probably the same way that I did when they are told that all emotions, there's no such thing as a bad emotion.

[A]

Right. Everybody wants to feel good emotions. Happy, contentment, all that. And we want to avoid the bad ones first. You can't avoid the bad ones. Life is going to happen. And if you have a new mindset around them that they're information and data.

[B]

So then the bigger issue is not emotions. It's when you have no instruction on what to do with these emotions.

[A]

Correct. That's the first step.

[B]

Yes. Okay.

[A]

But there's a part B to the mindset piece. Okay. You also have to believe that you can deal with it.

[B]

Deal with it. Explain what that means. Survive it. You can.

[A]

Yeah, that. You know what? I'm not gonna. Anxiety doesn't have to have power over me. I can use strategies to help me manage that anxiety when it's overwhelming to me. There are things I can actually do that are helpful, which, by the way, my research and other people's research shows there really are a lot of strategies. We just haven't learned them. You know, what did I. My mother was very anxious. So what I learned from my mother was tell everybody you're having a nervous breakdown and then lock yourself in the room. That was her goal.

[B]

That was how she regulated I can't take it anymore.

[A]

That's how she would say. And then she'd, like, have her little doers on the side of the couch while watching Johnny Carson's show. And then she'd go to her room and that would be it. Like, okay, that's a strategy, too. I wouldn't call that a healthy strategy.

[B]

So then the answer is no longer, again, emotions. They're not good or bad. Emotions are emotions. But then the education should teach us what is an Appropriate response to that emotion.

[A]

Correct. What is. I don't like the word appropriate just because. It's like, I'm gonna.

[B]

I'm using all the wrong words.

[A]

It's all right. You're in it. You're getting an emotion education.

[B]

Why is appropriate wrong? Why is feeling good not an acceptable answer? Why is using the word appropriate? Like, why are the. Are these like.

[A]

Because good has no meaning? Like, how you feel good. Fine. Okay. It's like, it's useless.

[B]

Is that us almost trying to suppress our true emotions?

[A]

It's, like, a little dismissive. Yeah. I mean, not like in a bad, negative way. It's more like that's just kind of what we. You know, you just say good so you can move on with your day. You know, you're at work. How's it going? Good. And then before you even say good, the person has gone away anyway. Yeah. So that's. And then the appropriate thing is more around that there's a correctness. There really is no correct strategy. That's the beauty of emotional intelligence, is that it's what works for you based on your personality, based on your gender and culture. There's a lot of strategies. You have to find the ones that work best for you given who you.

[B]

Are, and that's where you tie the emotion into. What are my goals in life?

[A]

Exactly. 100%. I haven't met. You know, there are a few people that I've met that have achieved their biggest goals in life without learning how to deal with their emotions.

[B]

Meaning it's very difficult to do that.

[A]

No, meaning that the people who achieved the most in life have really learned how to deal with the feelings.

[B]

Exactly. Yes. Because if not, then it's almost like you're living this reactive life.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And in life.

[A]

Or suppressed life.

[B]

Or suppressed. And in life, good and bad will always happen. But if you don't know how to regulate, then the good will probably give you a false indicator of your own potential or your own competency. And the bad will probably derail all the other things you're trying to accomplish because you let that emotion almost consume you.

[A]

Exactly. You got that one right.

[B]

Good. Listen, I don't pretend to bat a hundred. As long as I get some of the terms, that's all that counts. You teach at Yale? I podcast for a living. You've done this? A couple times.

[A]

We both had our two rodeos. But it's an interesting thing. I do teach at Yale and the assumption is that everyone's brilliant, which people are really smart, and that everyone's going to be enormously successful. Not true. Just because you have a high cognitive ability does not mean you're going to achieve your goals in life. I've met so many hundreds of students who could not achieve what they wanted out of life because they couldn't deal with the anxiety, the stress, the fear, the overwhelm, the disappointment. They just don't know what to do with it. And then over time, it just catches up and they give up.

[B]

And is there, I mean, I guess it doesn't really matter if there's. Some sort of upbringing that that creates a certain ability to regulate or not. I'm sure that some households that are probably a little bit calmer create a person who can regulate a little bit better, but it doesn't really matter. It just matters like what you can do going forward. So even if you do come from like a very traumatic upbringing in a, in a household where parents are fighting or there's a lot of contentiousness, there is, there is no upbringing where you can't at some point learn to regulate. This is what we're talking about. You can learn all these things.

[A]

It's 100% learned. Okay, 100% learned. You were not born with a pocket full of research based strategies to help you deal with your fields.

[B]

That's fair. That's fair. What is the difference between I find this interesting emotion and having emotions and being emotional? It's almost like it becomes your identity.

[A]

Well, by the way, that's another big issue these days because we've gone to a whole other level of high school kids telling me I am not just feeling anxious, I am anxious. Which is really problematic because we are not our feelings. Our feelings are experiences. And if we identify as an emotion, that means our mindset around it is not helpful. Does that make sense?

[B]

It does. I'm just thinking about all the. I think that tying your identity to anything is actually problematic in general. And I'm just. Every time you talk about emotions, I see so many parallels from when, for an example, an entrepreneur ties their entire identity to, to their business or you, you tie your entire identity to how much money you make. Like super problematic.

[A]

I agree. More. I couldn't agree more.

[B]

So of course, yes, it makes tons of sense. Like if you tie your identity to like what you feel, then that becomes all, all consuming.

[A]

It's just all consuming and it's everything, every aspect of your life is controlled by that.

[B]

You said that this is more of a recent phenomenon where we consider ourselves to be our emotion, not just experience it.

[A]

Why is This I think it's for, for adolescents, I think it's all about social media. It's just, they're so. And they're just feeling like they're in social comparison mode all day long. Everyone's smarter, everyone's got better lips, better hips, better biceps, better this. But you know, and it's like it just puts you in that cycle of never ending feeling less than which by the way, going to more. Going back to the L of Ruler. I did this big study with college students and they all said they were stressed. And I, you know, I have empathy for people in general. I think I'm a pretty empathic guy. But I also was not believing they were so stressed because it's not that hard to be a student at my university. I mean it's. The courses are tough and like, look at me, you got a great professor.

[B]

But.

[A]

And so I challenged them to really do a deep dive into their stressors. And lo and behold, what I found was that the number one emotion based on the themes for the reasons they were saying they were stressed was.

[B]

Was it their identity?

[A]

No. Well, it's around it. But what was the number one feeling? Do you think they were actually having the reason, the real feeling?

[B]

Comparison overwhelm one of those two?

[A]

For sure, yeah. So comparison would lead to what emotion?

[B]

Envy or jealousy. Oh, jealousy. Okay. So it had nothing to do with the schoolwork at all actually that was causing them stress.

[A]

The way it had to do with schoolwork was that, you know, this person can study for less hours and get better grades.

[B]

That's so interesting. So there was still this like social comparison component that tied back to like I'm not enough.

[A]

Correct. That created jealousy and they were labeling it as stress.

[B]

So it's totally not stress at all.

[A]

It's envy and jealousy.

[B]

That's so interesting.

[A]

And then they're going for counselors who don't know the difference between stress, envy and anxiety. And they're given like yoga exercises and mindfulness exercises.

[B]

And meanwhile their peer, whatever their classmate, is still studying four hours and getting.

[A]

The best and they're sitting around, you got better lips, you got better hips, you're better than this, you're better than me. Then they're, they just. I don't know how yoga is going to take away not.

[B]

It will not.

[A]

Right. I love yoga, by the way.

[B]

I have no problem with yoga, but it's just not the right. Lennar is a success story, partner. Now if you've ever been interested in real estate investment, listen up. Whether or not you're just researching or you're buying your first rental property or your 15th, you know the pain. Sourcing deals, pulling comps from five different sites, building your own underwriting spreadsheets and hoping the numbers are right. It is a grind. Lennar Investor Marketplace simplifies the whole thing. They've got new construction homes, rental ready, pre inspected across over 90 markets. And every listing comes with a full underwriting dashboard built in. That means rental comps, neighborhood data, school scores, projected expenses, estimated noi, expected returns. It's all there. So if you're new, you're not flying blind. But if you're experienced, it's also saving you hours. And Lennar is one of the biggest home builders in the country. Over 1.5 million homes built through the marketplace. You get interest of vetted property managers at below market rates, warranty coverage, title and closing services. The whole back end is handled. New investors get the guidance, experienced investors get the speed. Either way, you're not duct taping 10 different tools together. So if you are investing in real estate, check out Lennar Investor Marketplace and see what's available in your market.

[A]

Not the right strategy for the emotion.

[B]

Why are we so bad at intuitively labeling our own emotions properly?

[A]

Again, no one taught us how it wasn't a priority. You know, it's like we're, we tend to be called clumpers. I feel like shit. I feel fine.

[B]

So we, we're done. Just bulk all these emotions.

[A]

Bulk them all. We don't get to that granularity of, is it anxiety, stress, pressure, fear, overwhelmed? Is it happiness, elation, ecstasy, or just contentment or tranquility or peace?

[B]

Is it because from a biological perspective, there's certain chemical reactions to certain emotions that feel like others, and we just really don't know. We just pay attention to the reaction.

[A]

Well, there is a problem there, too, because a lot of people, we do feel emotions in our body for sure, and we have the same sensations for similar emotions.

[B]

I'm just wondering where that clumping comes from.

[A]

Oh, it just comes from not being taught the specific emotion words. People just, you know, honey, you know, like, I don't know about you when you were growing up and let's say you were coming down the stairs and you're getting ready for school and your shoulders a little slumped and you look a little different than the day before. You know, did you have a parent to say, hey, you know, hey, Scott, you know, I'm noticing your body language is different today. You know, let's, let's have some breakfast? Together and talk about how you're feeling. Really, dad, no, I'm not in the mood for that right now. I just want to go to school. Honey, I know you want to go to school, but, you know, come on, let's just check in. I didn't have that.

[B]

I didn't have that either.

[A]

Yeah. And if.

[B]

You know, I'm sure my mom would have probably, if she noticed something, tried to do that, and I probably would have ran away as fast as I could.

[A]

That's true, too. And that's part of the kind of cultural piece, too, that we have grown up in a society especially for boys and men. You're weak if you talk about feelings. You're just supposed to not have any. Buckle up, kiddo. Suck it up. Which is ridiculous. I mean, everybody has emotions, and there's nothing wrong with them. There's no bad emotions. Remember? We have to learn how to regulate them. But you can't regulate if you don't know how you're feeling. So what we've covered, actually, are the first two buckets. In my work, in my book, the first bucket is the mindset piece. Just emotions or data. That's freedom. The second bucket is we got to have language for those feelings. We need to get more precise. Some people say you got to name it to tame it. I say you got to label it to regulate it. Got to have little phrases. Then there are actual, like, real strategies. By the way, those strategies are sometimes enough. Sometimes just saying, wow, Mark, you're really envious of this guy. Or you're really frustrated right now. Yeah, I am. Okay. That awareness is a gift. I can just let it go. Sometimes it's not enough, and that's why you need more strategies. So another bucket would be the breathing and mindfulness bucket. I was joking about it earlier, but it's really important. You need to know how to breathe to deactivate your nervous system. In many ways, especially like when we're with our partners or we're at work and we get triggered by a colleague or, you know, a boss. You really have to deactivate before you say anything. You just do. Because what happens is when we're triggered, we go to our automatic habitual retaliatory strategies as opposed to our go to helpful strategies. And if you can downregulate through breath or through some kind of reflection exercise, at least you can say, mark, take the high road. Like, I have a lot of phrases for myself. One of them is like, mark. I do say, mark, take the high road. When I'm really upset about something I say, Mark, you know, this is impermanent. Because I have a problem with emotions myself. As an expert, when I feel the strong emotion, like in a relationship, it feels like it's permanent. Do you know what I mean by that?

[B]

I know exactly what you mean.

[A]

It's like this weird thing like when I'm. If I got angry with you right now, it's like my anger for you is forever.

[B]

But that's why, because it's just. It's all consuming.

[A]

Yes, it's all consuming.

[B]

And, and if you don't recognize that, that it isn't going to be all consuming and that over time you're going to chill out.

[A]

All emotions are ephemeral. A new rule. Another rule. Emotions are impermanent. That's part of. When I talk to people who say I am anxious, I'm like, tell me about your day when you were at the gym, when you were at lunch with your friends, when you're doing this project, when you were doing your musical work, did you feel it then? Oh, no, actually I was in a great place then. So then you are not anxious. You have moments of anxiety. And we have a negativity bias. So when we're asked to reflect on our emotions, oftentimes we focus on the negative ones.

[B]

I'm going to add on one more piece because you said when you are feeling a certain way, especially anger or some kind of emotion that's like really charged. I'm not going to say bad anymore. Just like a charged good boy. Exactly. Then it's not only about responding. Your decision making ability is completely. It's gone to shit, basically. So every decision you make is going to be less effective because you're doing it through the, through the emotion. So even things that aren't related to.

[A]

That person, I want to be careful about that. So what I would say is that this is a, this is a real nuance here that you can make a good decision feeling any emotion as long as you're aware that you're feeling the emotion and regulating it effectively when you're making the decision.

[B]

There's a difference.

[A]

Do you see the difference?

[B]

There's a big difference. Yes. So you can be angry and still make a good decision if you know that you're angry and you are compartmentalizing that feeling away from the decision. Because if I get off a bad call or I get off a bat, or I get a bad email. It's so funny that you mentioned breathing exercises. So whenever I'm like actually angry at work, I Intuitively go for a walk, for a run, go to the gym. Because I find that I make better decisions after. And I've never, like, I've never really once thought and walked through that in my head of, okay, I'm angry now, let me not make that next bad decision. That has nothing to do with the anger. But I've just through experience realized that my decision making ability is skewed to a degree. So I try and like separate it with the physical activity, but that was just.

[A]

Which works great.

[B]

A learned response over time. But this is something that you can actually.

[A]

Yeah. And so you have a go to strategy, which is taking a walk, you know, giving yourself some space or going to the gym. I do this. When I was writing my book, I was like out of my mind. There were some days I'm just like, I hate my life, I hate writing. Like, this is boring. Nobody's going to want to read it. And in those moments, I wouldn't push through. I'd say, mark, you're done right now. Like, anything comes out now is going to be. Anyway, I shut the computer and I went to the gym. And I told myself one of my. I hired a trainer during COVID after and after Covid, because I was like, I ate way too much Thai food and needed to get into shape. And I remember joking with him, I said, I may never finish this book, but I'm going to be in best freaking shape I've ever been in. And it really actually was amazing to me, but similar to you is that if I would get like, kind of just like lost or just kind of like just feel like it's not going anywhere. Close the computer, go outside. I live in the countryside. I look at the beautiful nature or I go take a, you know, do a little, some yoga or a workout, come back always in better place, always. It's just like amazing. But let me get to the science for a minute because I think this is interesting because we're, we're, we're kind of talking about it, but let me clarify it, which is that, you know, we live on a roller coaster ride of emotions. Some days, you know, you're at work, let's say you're going into work. Like, people who are listening probably travel to work oftentimes or they work at home. But let's say imagine this scenario. Traveling, traveling to work, but you had a fight with your kid or your partner, your spouse, you know, on the way to work and you're like, in the car and I can't take it anymore. This is, you know, this is me being a little bit therapeutic here. And so. And then you open the door to your office and someone says, what do you think about that? And you're like, I hate it. I do a lot of evaluating of people's work, of their writing, you know, their grant proposals. I'm like, ugh, this study's terrible. And I'm not realizing that it's the emotion that's driving the judgment. It's not Mark's. Mark's not being rational in that moment. Mark is allowing the emotion. And this is interesting because it's called incidental emotional leakage. So, like, I'm angry at my home life, and I'm not processing it well. And what I'm allowing it to do is subconsciously influence the choice. That has nothing to do with the argument I had at home.

[B]

That's what we're talking about. So this is a real phenomenon.

[A]

It's a real phenomenon. It happens all the time. And so the antidote is very simple. It goes back to R U, L. It's before you open the door to your office, you take a breath and you say to yourself, what? I'm really in a bad place right now. Can't say bad. I'm in a dark place. I'm frustrated. I'm angry. What's going on? Oh, I'm, you know, it's the fifth time I told my spouse that I had. I didn't want to walk the dogs, and I, you know, I needed to get to work today, and I, you know, running late, and I'm so annoyed. I'm so frustrated at my spouse. Okay, then you walk into the door and you've attributed. You use the word compartmentalize, which is okay, but it's really about attribution. I've attributed the emotion to its actual cause, so it will no longer have that subconscious influence.

[B]

All of these strategies, this is what comprises emotional educations. Just to frame. I want to go back to Ruler again, and we'll keep going through. But what would, in your perfect world, emotional education actually look like? Like, I just want to go back to, like, kindergarten or what.

[A]

I would love to do that because that's where my work is primarily. So I have a program that's also called ruler, that's in 5,000 schools across the United States and in 33 other countries. And it is a pre K preschool to high school curriculum that's developmental, teaching kids about emotions and emotional intelligence. And it looks like, you know, think about it when you're in five years old you learn the word sad and you learn lonely. And what does that really mean? What does that feel like in your body? What are your thoughts when you're sad? And then you get disappointment and you have despair and hopelessness and depression and you know, those long, you know, that kind of trajectory of emotion that's in a category, you know, of sadness. Same thing with anger. I could be peeved and irritated and angry and livid and enraged. Or I could be calm, content, tranquil, peaceful, or feeling blissful.

[B]

Now I know why you don't like the word good. You have a much more.

[A]

Exactly. I mean, if I don't have a good emotional vocabulary, nobody will. That's right. But what we do as a curriculum for kids and the adults who are serving kids because they haven't had the education they need to teach it. So Ruler is both for the leaders and teachers of kids and also the students is we provide the language for them to learn. And then there's all these exercises. Kids link it to characters and history or they write a poem about it, or they do a character analysis. Then they do role plays around situations in school where they feel these emotions. And then what do you do when your friend's feeling left out on the playground? What are your go to strategies? Do you have them? Well, if not, let's talk about them. What are some helpful things? And they problem solve through that and then they apply that to themselves and that gets kind of done across development.

[B]

When you have a child who's gone through this program, I'm assuming it's relatively new. It's not something that's been around for 40 years.

[A]

No, it's been around. Well, truthfully, I mean, my whole career is because of my uncle who was my hero in life, who was developing a curriculum like this in the 1970s. Just he was one teacher in New.

[B]

York State, way ahead of his time then way.

[A]

I mean, God, Lil Marvin was like a pioneer. I'm lucky I discovered him. And literally he and I worked together for the first 10 years of my career to build out a lot of these curriculum. Then I went to Yale and scaled it.

[B]

I was going to ask what is the result of a child that goes through this versus somebody who does not?

[A]

Better mental health, better physical health, better academic performance, happier, healthier puzzle. Oh, net positive. And there's been meta analyses which are studies of studies at this point done on curricula like Ruler and others. And the evidence is consistently clear. Kids do better academically, they do better in terms of their friendships. There's less bullying in the schools and they're healthier, happier people.

[B]

Quick question. What's your go to when you got 10 minutes before a meeting or a workout? For me, it just used to be whatever I could grab, which usually meant skipping meals entirely or just grabbing something that left me crashing an hour later because it was just full of garbage. That's why I'm partnering with hu. This black edition Ready to Drink is a complete meal. So it has 35 grams of protein, 6 grams of fiber, 35 essential vitamins and minerals. It is no sugar added, gluten free under five bucks. I always keep a few of these in my fridge and honestly it solved the whole back to back meetings. Go, go go nonstop, no time to eat problem. Super well. And this one's new for me. It's Hues Daily Greens. I had the blueberry this morning. Honestly first impression, it was way better than I expected. It's developed by reg nutritionists and dietitians. There are 42 vitamins, minerals and superfoods. Only 25 calories, 4 grams of fiber and just 1 gram of sugar. I throw one back first thing before my morning calls. Every single morning. Look, if you're running a business, time is the most valuable asset. HU makes healthy eating simple and they also just launched into target stores nationwide so you can get it everywhere. Try both products today with 15% off your purchase for new customers with my exclusive code [e-mail] Scott tried both products today with 15% off your purchase for new customers with my exclusive code Scott S C ott.com Scott use my code fill out the post checkout survey to help Support the show that is Huell.com Scott they really make healthy living taste amazing. Even if you're on the go. Healthy eating, healthy lifestyle doesn't have to taste bad. It doesn't have to suck. NetSuite is a success story partner. Now every business owner I talk to is asking the exact same question. How do we make AI? For us, the possibilities are endless. Guessing is a little bit too risky. But sitting on the sidelines isn't an option either, because your competitors are already making their move. The answer is NetSuite by Oracle. You can put AI to work today. NetSuite is the number one AI Cloud ERP. It's trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It brings your financials, your inventory, your commerce, your HR and CRM into a single source of truth. And that connected data is what makes your AI smarter. It automates routine tasks, delivers actionable insights, helps you cut costs and make confident decisions. And you've got total flexibility. And with the NetSuite AI connector, you can use the AI of your choice, connect it to your actual business data and automate all those manual processes. This isn't a bolted on tool, it's AI built into the systems that run your business. So whether you're doing millions or hundreds of millions, netsuite keeps you ahead. And if I needed this product, this is what I'd use. Now, if your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get the free business guide demystifying AI at netsuite.com Scott Clary the guide is free to you at netsuite.com Scott clary that's netsuite.com/scott clary. Now it's nice if we have this available to my kids or kids that are currently in school. You mentioned for an adult, like they can read books, they can educate themselves. But where would an adult start?

[A]

I think starting with again, reading. I'm just, you know, I feel like I'm like massive, like self promoter today.

[B]

No, but it's important because somebody who's listening to this, I don't want them to think, well, I've never learned this. I'm going to read one book, but they're going to read one book. But reading one book doesn't change your life.

[A]

No, it's got to.

[B]

Well, maybe if it's a really good.

[A]

Book, but I mean, come on. Let me. Actually, can I tell you a funny story about this? So I got a letter, this is my first book which is called Permission to Feel, which is kind of like my baby. I got a letter after writing that book from a 94 year old man. He wrote me a note and he says, dear Mark, I finished reading your book and I cannot tell you how helpful it was for me, even in my 90s. I only wish I had learned this when I was younger because I would have been a better husband, I would have been a better parent. But I'm grateful to have these strategies now in my life. I was like hysterical crying from this like this 94 old man from Boston, like a lawyer from Boston, a real WASPy guy, you know, like writing to some Jewish neurotic psychologist that he's thankful for his book. It's pretty good. And I write him back now in my book. I dedicate my book to my Uncle Marvin because I had pretty traumatic childhood that included abuse and my uncle really pulled me through that. And so I have a phrase that we have to have more Uncle Marvin's in the world. And I have a whole study on that too, but that's separate. So this guy writes me back, and I say to him, gosh, thank you so much for that letter. It just made my day. It makes what I do worth doing. And he writes me back again, and he goes, no, Mark, thank you for being my Uncle Marvin.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I'm like, okay, I've had an. I need therapy. This is too much.

[B]

So there's no age where this can't be learned.

[A]

No age.

[B]

It's sad that we don't have this in a curriculum.

[A]

Well, we do. We have it. I'm in 5,000 schools. I want to be in 50,000 schools.

[B]

It's sad that it was never focused outside of your work and Uncle Marvin.

[A]

And there's pushback on it now too, by the way. Why, by the way? The state that we're recording this in is not very fond of the work that we do.

[B]

For real?

[A]

For real.

[B]

What? See, I don't understand how this could be a political thing at all. Because it just seems like when I listen to the, like listen from just personal experience, dealing with emotions, and emotions being a huge part of my success. The. The. The ones that have sort of taken me to the next level, the ones that I have to learn to manage so that I can be a competent professional. There is zero about emotion that I don't see to be a benefit if you just learn more about it.

[A]

I couldn't agree more.

[B]

So, like, I don't quite understand.

[A]

Yeah, me neither.

[B]

Why there would be pushback.

[A]

The pushback is that it's the parents job to teach this. And my pushback to that is like, parents, you haven't done such a good.

[B]

Job more often than not. Yeah. If anything, like the, the anxiety levels.

[A]

In our society, if, like, if parents were doing a great job at teaching kids emotional intelligence, you know, and I'm not bashing parents now. Parents are doing the best they can. They never had the education either.

[B]

Yeah, but I wouldn't say that all parents should teach math and science and all the other topics.

[A]

And I couldn't agree more.

[B]

As a. I don't have kids yet, but I can guarantee you when I do have kids, I'm not gonna know every single, you know, historical English lit book that we should unpack. Like, what? It's not my. I can teach them maybe a little bit about social media and podcasting, but like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, well, they think that, you know, some people believe that it's like prying, like you're trying to, like, pull private information out of kids, and that's the problem. And so I tell them, like, I have. That's not what we do. We teach kids language to describe their feelings and we teach them evidence based strategies to help them regulate their emotions. And importantly, we don't tell them when and how they should feel, what they should feel, nor do we tell them what strategies they're supposed to use. We just make the offering. So they have that education.

[B]

You can verbalize how you're feeling and.

[A]

Also choose a strategy that works for you. Like, I didn't know anything about a technique, for example, that's called psychological distancing. It's one of the most helpful regulation strategies ever learned, which is kind of ask like, for example. I mean, we're talking, you know, to, you know, people in their 30s, 40s, that are, you know, working adults, they're in relationships, things. Do you ever get triggered by your partner?

[B]

Not, not often, but once in a while.

[A]

Gotta be careful here.

[B]

Pretty good. We're pretty good. No, but of course, I mean, we've been together for like, like six and a half years. There's been times where we trigger each other 100%.

[A]

Exactly. Over the stupidest things. Right?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Yeah. It's like at the grocery store, like, why are you buying that? I have a thing with that. Like, why do we need that?

[B]

I have a thing with that too. Because. Because she loves all organic everything, which is probably healthy. It's probably a good thing. But then we don't finish it. So then we have this like dead wasted, you know, moldy vegetable that lasted two days in our fridge. I'm like, why did you get that?

[A]

That was $19.

[B]

100%.

[A]

I know. We have the same triggers. We should go grocery shopping together.

[B]

So, yes. All those little.

[A]

In that moment, like, you have to decide, am I going to like be at the grocery store, like over my girlfriend's shoulder saying, like, why are you buying that? It's ridiculous. Don't do it, don't do it. Or are you going to be like, scott, is this really that important to my relationship? No. There you go.

[B]

Not at all.

[A]

But in that moment, you just want to be like, give me that lettuce.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Throw it back in the freezer or the refrigerator. It's like, yeah. And I have the same issue because I'm like, we have this thing with like organic almond milk. I'm like, this is a ripoff.

[B]

Oh my God. Organic almond milk. That sounds expensive. Or the little, what is it? Like the $30 strawberries from Erewhon or whatever they are.

[A]

Oh, I wouldn't even walk into Erewhon.

[B]

I don't either. I don't either. But that's.

[A]

I have walked in. It actually is nice. But I have to like close my eyes.

[B]

The ones that you should. That are protecting you versus things that are silly, sort of non consequential emotional.

[A]

For example, like the irritation at the grocery store.

[B]

Irritation at the grocery store versus someone disrespecting you.

[A]

Yeah. Totally different.

[B]

How do you understand. Because there could be this, this, this.

[A]

Sort of like they're both anger. They're both anger, they're both injustices. Because you think it's an injustice to buy that lettuce.

[B]

But if somebody, obviously extremely somebody. If a girlfriend is cheating on you, Gina never has, thank God. But if someone is cheating on you versus somebody who's buying a tomato and there's a sliding spectrum of emotions and every single bit of injustice between those two extremes. How do we know which ones should inform our actions versus which ones are. And there's a. This would be probably adding a lot to this conversation about like moral and ethics and what, what you want from a partner or you want from a job.

[A]

You're getting at the point though, which is that the, it's about the relevance and meaningfulness, you know, of that relationship and the emotion, you know, and what do I do about it? The context matters.

[B]

This leads to the, the, the overreaction. Right. For things that should not be overreacted.

[A]

To if it's going to impact your life. You know, like someone lied at work to, you know, get ahead. Like that's a big deal. And so you're going to have to come up with a good strategy to deal with the anger with that person and also have the courage to talk to the boss. And you know, that's a strategy that needs to be played out and thought through really carefully.

[B]

And I think that then I. Where I was going with this was what happens if we have past triggers that make us overreact to things.

[A]

Yeah. Which is common when the person doesn't.

[B]

Deserve it, for example, then, then you.

[A]

Have to really pay attention to that. And in that moment say, is this really about what's happening now or is this my past?

[B]

And this brings us back to the actual being able to recognize it and name it 100%.

[A]

You know, I think that a lot of people, this is, you know, where there's a strong connection to the trauma literature.

[B]

Yeah, I feel that.

[A]

And I, I am part of my, you know, we do work in trauma, which I think is important work at the Same time. The goal of life is to move forward. The goal of life is to move forward, not to move backward. I come from. I was sexually abused as a kid for five years of my childhood by my parents best friend. I appreciate that. If every time I was seeing an Instagram post about abuse or every time I was in a meeting as a psychologist about abuse, I was triggered, I would go crazy. And so I've learned to really understand that I am going back to defining yourself. I don't define myself as a sexually abused person. I define myself as a human being who experienced childhood sexual abuse. And I have. I don't deny it, I don't ignore it, but I have put it in its place in my life. Do I get triggered? Do I feel strong emotions when I see abuse happening in the world? Of course I do. Is it part of my passion for making sure people have the courage to talk about their feelings, which I didn't have as a kid? Of course it does. But I'm sublimating that negative experience into trying to make the world a better place. And I think that if you're constantly in a triggered space, I think that's an opportunity for growth, not an opportunity to believe that the world needs to change to make your life better understood.

[B]

So it's more of an internal locus of control and you take responsibility.

[A]

I think it's important.

[B]

Scenarios.

[A]

We went a little bit. We got heavy for a minute here.

[B]

I know, I know. But I think it's important too, because I think that it's heavy, but it's real.

[A]

It's real. We all have traumatic experiences. I have a big one. Some people have little ones, some people don't have any. But I think that the goal of life. I just want to say this a hundred times. The goal of life is to move forward, not backward. And if we're going to allow ourselves to always be triggered by things from our past and not kind of understand those and put them in a place in our life that isn't so controlling over us. If we can do that, our life's going to be better.

[B]

When we go through this process and we can identify and we can regulate to a greater degree. You mentioned this improves overall mental health.

[A]

It does.

[B]

What can this do for us? What can it not do? So can it help us heal trauma? Can it help us? It can help us do a lot.

[A]

Then I think emotion regulation is the most powerful skill that anybody can learn and the research is there to support it. If you can deal with your emotions, with the anger, the frustration, the overwhelm, the fear. You're going to have better physical health, you're going to have better mental health, you're going to have better relationships. And actually the research shows that you're going to live longer, you'll have a longer, healthier life.

[B]

Is that because of high blood pressure? Cortisol.

[A]

It's all about that. All cortisol levels are going to be lower. If you can regulate your emotions, you're not going to be having these cortisol spikes all day, all day long. You know, I was at a conference recently where a friend of mine was talking about mental health and trauma. And it was a great conversation we had because you know how sometimes you, you know, like you get into bed at night, if you're a parent, you do this with your kids or you're even with your partner and like you start talking about what went wrong that day. Well, that's going to spike cortisol levels, right? Because it's going to, you're going to go into fight flight mode. You're going to be activated, which is going to make rest more difficult. So there's a prevention strategy. Don't talk about the bad shit before you go into bed. Do it in the late afternoon over a cup of coffee. Call somebody up then, because you want to go into your night with cortisol levels dropping so that you can get a good night's sleep. Who learned that growing up?

[B]

No one.

[A]

No one.

[B]

Of course not. Of course not.

[A]

But that's like a real concrete strategy to make a huge difference in your life. That, by the way, and if you have the cortisol spikes, which leads to chronic or toxic stress is what makes your life shorter. Well, if you can use an evidence based strategy which is like talking about that earlier in the day so that your mind can be more at ease when you go to bed, guess what? You're going to be healthier. Your immune system is going to be stronger.

[B]

So there's not really a part of your life that doesn't improve?

[A]

I don't think so. I think it improves everything.

[B]

I just thought it was interesting how you've said that we are very bad at naming, labeling our own emotions. And then I was thinking about how many words you were just using to describe very similar experiences. So yeah, without the education it makes sense. We're very bad at labeling our own emotions. So if we're talking about differences between a certain kind of emotion, something that people would normally get confused. So stress, anxiety, pressure, fear, overwhelm. You mentioned that. Ironically, these were all things that maybe some of your students described. There was actually jealousy. So it's not even just that we are completely wrong. We could even be wrong if we. If the emotions are a little bit more or less together. Closer together. Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. The same family, the same family of emotions. Why are we so bad at understanding, even within the same family, what our emotions is? Because we don't have a proper definition of what they. What they are. And then what happens when we mislabel?

[A]

So let's think about it. Anxiety, stress, pressure. Fear. Overwhelmed. Oh, my. Anxiety is about uncertainty. I get anxious when I can't control the future or predict the future. I'm stressed when I have too many demands on me and I don't have enough resources to deal with those demands. Same or different?

[B]

Different.

[A]

Different.

[B]

Different. Much different.

[A]

Fear is when there's an immediate impending danger.

[B]

Also different.

[A]

Different. Anxiety, stress, pressure, pressure. Something at stake is dependent upon your behavior.

[B]

Also different.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Overwhelmed. You're just saturated with emotion.

[B]

What would be. What would be when you have too much happening and not enough time to do it?

[A]

Stress.

[B]

That would be stress as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, okay, so you have too many constraints, too many things to accomplish.

[A]

Correct. So why would that, like, why would you, Scott, be better at regulating your emotions if you were more granular or specific?

[B]

Because I would know what's causing the emotion. I would know how to. I would know how to deal with the thing. So, for example, if I'm feeling fear, fear means that something is immediate and present. Well, I can't feel fear about a big project or a big presentation or a speech that I'm speaking in front of 5,000 people. And I've never spoken in front of that many people before. And it's in three months from now. But I'm like, I say it's fear, but it's not fear.

[A]

It's not fear.

[B]

So that means that I'm actually tackling the wrong emotion. So if I want to strategy to remove some sort of feeling, then I have to. I have to name the right thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Quite simply, it's anxiety.

[A]

Because you're uncertain about the future.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're making your prediction that's not going to go well.

[B]

So then I can do it now I can have a strategy that deals with anxiety as opposed to a fear based.

[A]

Exactly. Fear is sort of like. You're in it. Yeah, there's nothing. Once you're in it, it's tough. Then it's like run away when the, you know, when the, you know, but.

[B]

Then people could have the wrong reaction. They. And they could, for example, they could self sabotage and because they think it's fear, maybe they cancel the speaking engagement because they don't want to go on stage. Even though that's totally not the case.

[A]

This is why if you don't have emotional intelligence, you don't always achieve your goals in life. You're giving the best example right there.

[B]

That's why it's so important. You speak about the emotional regulation budget.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

When I read that or when I say that it sounds like I can only regulate so much. Per what? Hour, day, lifetime.

[A]

It depends on your job. You know, if you're a kindergarten teacher, it's tough work. Like, you know, think about that. Kindergarten teachers all day long. Boys and girls and everyone, please sit still. Sit still. If I to tell you one more time, everybody, let's smile. Let's do our little marching to the water fountain.

[B]

It's a lot.

[A]

It's a lot. Think about if you're a bill collector. You know, the police officers at the, at the airports. Oh like their whole, their whole day is like, move the car, move the car.

[B]

I know. And they're not happy people for good.

[A]

Reason because they're stuck in their emotion. There's a good example of that, which is. We call that emotional labor, which is another term that's about the emotion that you have to experience or that you're kind of required to or just have to do in your work. It's the bill collector who's stern. It's the kindergarten teacher who's always smiling. You know, it's the professor who has always got to entertain or you know, things of that sort. And it can be draining. Like, I do like to speak publicly and I do a lot of it. And I, you know, I can't come home and be like, and then tonight it doesn't work well.

[B]

So if you have this regulation budget, are there ways to expand? I'm assuming going through this process and education definitely helps.

[A]

Well, the budget is specific. There's a three piece to the emotion regulation budget. And it's all the stuff that I think that you're interested in, which is sleep, it is food, and it is activity.

[B]

Well, these things actually help expand your budget.

[A]

Correct?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's not even education. It's like, that's the biology of regulation. Okay.

[A]

A lot of people, for example, a lot of young parents, they're working big jobs and they have young kids. I get all these phone calls. I can't deal with my. I'm trying to be the best version of myself and I fuck up the first thing at breakfast. And then the first thing I ask them is a, how was your sleep last night? I didn't go to bed till midnight. Well, if you went to bed at midnight and you're up at 5:00am, you know, it's five hours of sleep. You're not going to be the best version of yourself. So it's not that you can't be the best version of yourself. It's that you are not restoring your body. You need more budget. So that's a big deal for people. And I know people have. It's like ad nauseam how much every podcast is about sleep, but everybody needs quality sleep and longer sleep because we just need to rejuvenate. Our brains need to relax. And, you know, we need time to allow those neurons to just kind of wash away the crap from the day before and restore themselves. So that's number one. Number two is food. My hunch is that you care about what you eat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you know that, you know, eating a high fat, high sugar diet is not going to be great for you.

[B]

No, it won't feel good. Won't look good.

[A]

It won't. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But yet when we're anxious and we're overwhelmed. I met just a while ago, but about two years ago, I was traveling and I was so angry with myself for taking this trip to go give a speech in the middle of nowhere land. And I was staying at a really shitty hotel and I had not eaten dinner. I got to the hotel room, the only thing was a bag of gummy bears. That was it. So I had the choice of starve or look like a maniac watching television at midnight, eating a full bag of gummy bears. And I chose to eat half the bag. But I was like. And I, I, in the moment, like, I'm like, you're gonna hate yourself in the morning for doing this. You hate yourself right now for doing it. Because you know you shouldn't be doing this. And, like, you didn't even eat this kind of crap. But the point is, I now have not traveled without a bag of protein bars. You will not catch me without having a healthy protein alternative in my backpack. It's changed my life because when I'm flying and they give me that clopping like, no, thank you, and I eat this instead. And so that's part of me being aware that a, I'm going to have a terrible night's sleep. I have all that crap in my body. And B, I'm going to be negatively ruminating the following day about it even, which is going to interfere with my presentation the third and even like today. So today I had to give a speech before this. I just got back from London the day before yesterday, actually. Yeah, day before yesterday. And the reason why I'm sharing that is that I woke up this morning too early from jet lag about 5 o' clock and I was like, mark, you should sleep. I went to bed early though. I pushed myself to go to bed early. I'm sharing this with you because this may resonate with people. My brain was saying, mark, you've been traveling. You should just like lie in bed and get room service and then watch TV and then take a shower and get ready for your talk. But Mark's like deepest true self was like, you're lying to yourself, you jerk. You are just like making you are like, this is. You know that what you need to do is get out of bed, go to that gym, take a walk outside. And my better self came out. I got up, I was annoyed because there was no coffee shop open at 5:30 in the morning, but I did a crappy coffee in the room and I went to the gym. And it transformed my whole day.

[B]

It does, it does. So that cascade of decisions came from understanding where that emotion was coming from too Correct.

[A]

And also this is a good point, which is that emotional intelligence is not about indulging in your emotions. If I indulge in my emotions, my emotion, which I'm not even sure what I was even feeling, which was tired, maybe that's just not even a feeling. I was feeling a little bit overwhelmed because I've been on the road so much and my my lazy Mark self was just, stay in bed, you deserve the rest. That's going to make you feel better. But Mark, who's been working out regularly now for a couple of years, knew that Mark, do the forecast. Do the forecast. And the forecast was I knew I would feel a lot better if I went to the gym. Which was true.

[B]

Indeed is a success story, partner. Now, if you're hiring, Indeed is all you need. Let me give you an example. If I needed to hire a new editor for this show, I'd go to Indeed and be super specific, not just can you edit audio. I'd say I need someone who's edited a conversational podcast for at least three years, gets our style and knows our software. Someone who's done this before. And here's the thing with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. I'd get people who fit that description. I'm not digging through resumes from people who've edited one YouTube video. I'm getting actual podcast editors who know what they're doing. People who've worked on shows like ours and can prove it. That's what makes a difference. You get people who actually are what you're looking looking for. According to INDEED data, sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed are 90% more likely to report a higher than non sponsored jobs and people are finding quality hires right now. In the minute that I've been speaking to you. Companies like yours have made 27 hires on Indeed according to Indeed Data worldwide. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all the boxes. Less stress, less time and more results. Now with Indeed sponsor Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help you get your job the premium status it deserves. @inn Indeed.com Clary just go to Indeed.com Clary right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com Clary terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right way with Indeed. HubSpot is a success story. Partner now. If you're looking for a new podcast, one of my favorite shows right now is Demand Decoded. If you're in the B2B marketing space, you need to be listening to this. It's hosted by the team at Blend. They are a demand gen agency. They know what they're doing. They're also part of the HubSpot Podcast Network. What I love about it is they skip all the theory and they just tell you what's actually working today. So demand gen marketing content, LinkedIn ads, attribution. They talk about real strategies that they are using that you can use today that are working. So if you're an entrepreneur, if you're building a business, if you're really selling anything to anyone, go search Demand Decoded wherever you get your podcast. It's so interesting. So sometimes your emotions, what you're describing are actually lying to you because your subconscious knows what is actually good for you.

[A]

The emotions aren't lying. It's the strategies that you've learned over life that are making you.

[B]

Or, or it could be the lack of the, the sleep, the lack of nutrition that can also inflame your kind.

[A]

Of automatic like the lack of sleep, the lack of all that that influences your cravings.

[B]

When someone has no budget left, what are they feeling through the day? Like how can someone identify if they are? It's good to say like get more sleep, eat better. But what is the life of somebody or the experience of somebody who has no emotional regulation budget left? Do they just feel strung out, burnt out?

[A]

They're burnt out, they're drained and they're making poor decisions?

[B]

Is that the majority of people?

[A]

It's a lot of people. It's a lot of people who, you know, you look at, you know, the obesity rate in our society, you look at the depression rates in our society, we know from research that exercise has the same impact as psychotherapy or drugs, different treatments for supporting people who have depression even, but yet we have not built the muscle, you know, the learnings of. And this is, by the way, something really interesting that I want to talk about. But this is one thing because, you know, I'm looking at you and I know, I can see you don't just, you know, you work out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's like, yeah, no, it's a.

[B]

Big part of my life. But it's not, it's not for the, the aesthetic look good reasons. A lot of what we're talking about, again, I've never studied this, but peak performance, not from like, you know, gotta bench the most, gotta run a marathon, be an ironman, gotta, you know, build a billion dollar company. Just like I wanna feel good through my day, I want to be, I wanna be there cognitively. I wanna make smart decisions. I want to be able to, you know, people interact with. I want to interact them with kindness and empathy and generally just leave the world in a better place than I found it. Like, I just want. And it's hard for me to do that if I eat like shit, if I don't work out, if I get to sleep, I don't get to sleep. Like, it's very hard.

[A]

And the relationship piece, which we didn't get into is another whole piece.

[B]

So it's like these are just the direction that I've moved in is better sleep, better food, more activity. And it just bleeds in a positive way into all other areas of my life. So, yes, I do work out, I enjoy it. I immensely enjoy it. And I mentioned before, whenever I get a bad email or something like that, I'll go to the gym. So, yeah, there's a super positive reaction to that. And great, you look good once in a while on the beach. But the point is the rest of your life is much better because of it.

[A]

Exactly. And it's not your only strategy. You're going to have to respond to the email, but you're going to respond to it in a more thoughtful way after you do the workout than if you just went right to the trigger for sure.

[B]

So I apologize, I hijacked your thought. No, no, no, you're going somewhere with this.

[A]

Where I was going was that I want to give credit to Marco Jimenez, who is this trainer that I met and online I was like lying in bed feeling not good about myself because I had my, by the way, my other whole life career was as a martial arts teacher. And we had this conversation because when I first started working out, like, I always been like, I did yoga, I did martial arts, but I never like lifted weights. Weights. Now I'm a four day a week lifter and I've never felt better. And. But the first phase of the workout change was like, you know, cutting the calories and, you know, monitoring my steps and my walking and activity and then doing the lifting. I mean, I would work out. I have such negative self Talk. Mark, you're 50 years old. Who cares about your body? You've been with your partner 30 years. Who cares? You're a professor. Nobody's looking at you. And I'm like, that's sick. Why am I so nasty to myself? And part of the reason why I wanted to work out was for my physical health. But I also, you know, I do a lot of public speaking. I wanted to feel good when I saw the pictures of me on stage. Like, I want to feel good about how I'm representing me. That was important to me. And it wasn't in some grandiose, like narcissistic way. It's just I wanted to feel when I looked at the picture, I was like, you should. Yeah.

[B]

And you look good.

[A]

Thank you. You look good.

[B]

Yeah, it's working out.

[A]

You just sound like my uncle from that. You look good. Let's you move to Florida. You have a little.

[B]

A little bit. Yeah, a little bit. I know exactly what you mean.

[A]

It's funny anyhow, but the point was that the first phase was like, it's like, do it at all costs. Like Mark, plow through the negative talk. Just like, try to catch your negative talk and reframe it. And so that was all the cognitive strategies. The second phase was when I actually saw progress. I actually had lost the weight that I had gained. I saw some tone because he made me take pictures every month, all the pictures. And I was like, wow, Mark, you look better. You look different. But the third phase is what interested me the most, which was when working out no longer really was something I had to push myself to do. It became part of my identity. And now I Do see it that way. It's rare that I make the excuse that I did this morning and I still got up and did the workout though. So proud of myself and the interest that I have in my work as a psychologist is for people like you and for the people that are listening to your podcast to come to a place in their lives where they wake up every morning and actually see themselves as a highly skilled, emotionally intelligent person.

[B]

So if I think about what turned you from somebody who was forcing themselves to work out to somebody who enjoyed it, it's because now you have this, this collection of evidence that it's a net positive in your life 100%. So it's very easy for you to do it. So I'm the type of like loser that will find a hotel based on how good their hotel gym is.

[A]

Me too, actually. The big deal for me, I get it.

[B]

There's a website that does it for you too.

[A]

But is there? We'll talk about that later.

[B]

Yeah, there's a website that ranks hotel gyms.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

So for me, because I know that I'm gonna feel worse, I'm going to. I'm just gonna feel lethargic and gross and I won't enjoy myself as much. So I'm like, okay, so how do I architect my life in a way that will support this being very important to me. And every time I travel, it's a must have.

[A]

You and I that we like the.

[B]

Same, very, very similar. But it's because we have this like, once we see something that's a benefit in our lives, it's. It's no longer a habit that you have to force. I'm sure that you know James Clear, I'm sure there's some part of his book that talks about this, right? Where the thing turns into the identity because it's so net positive for you. This is what people have to do with emotions. They have to, they have to.

[A]

So the belief I can do this, I can label my feelings, I have the words to regulate them. I can breathe and do all those exercises to still my mind and deactivate my nervous system. I can stop being a freaking self saboteur and be so self critical, like I'm not good enough. You know, talking about like negative talk. Abs have always been my worst area. And you know, I was doing abs a while back and I'm like, the first two minutes, like, why? This is ridiculous again. Like it creeps back in. It's amazing to me. And I'm like, mark, you just made a commitment like you were gonna, this is gonna be the month where you're gonna be Mr. Positive Self Talk. And like 10 seconds later I'm like, never going to get those abs. And you have to catch that negative talk. And you've got to work on it. You just have to. There's no option because it will ruin your life. It will ruin your life if you cannot get rid of the self criticism.

[B]

It's interesting because you mentioned that the people that have achieved the most have basically, whether or not explicitly knowing it or just intuitively understood it, gone through this ruler process in their own life. Which is interesting because there's a lot of these, I don't know, hustle culture, people that just talk about like suppressing emotion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then it's like, those are kind of like the. There's like a ceiling on that.

[A]

Well, the dudes, I love it now because all these dudes, like other podcasts that I've been on, like Uberman and Chris Williamson and monawis and they're all talking about emotions now.

[B]

It's interesting, right?

[A]

Yeah. Because they realize it. And by the way, there are people who are successful who are not emotionally intelligent. We can name a few of them in our society. But again, what's your definition of success?

[B]

That's what's key. This is what this podcast turned into. When I first started, it was talking about business and entrepreneurship. And then I started realizing, okay, if you make a little bit of money, if you're successful by a financial KPI or standpoint, how do you make sure the rest of your life doesn't go to shit?

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And that's very important.

[A]

It is. And that's why this point of success, I actually would advocate for emotion regulation being a big part of our success in life. If your definition of success is being a powerful CEO or government leader who doesn't care about people, I don't want that success. I'm not interested in that as being success. I'd rather see leaders who are creating a world where there's greater well being for the people in that and in.

[B]

Other people's life, but also their own. Of course you don't want to be a great CEO. Oh, I say great, successful, built a big company, but four ex wives, kids hate you, you're physically out of shape, you feel like shit, like you don't want this stuff at all.

[A]

The whole model that I have created with my book is about self and other. It's always self and other. I have to be a good self regulator, but I got to Share the love. And I got to help you as my significant other, my employee, my friend, whoever, the community. I got to help you regulate better too.

[B]

That's the thing that I think people have a hard time with and just maybe talk about that for a second. Regulating other people. Because I can listen to this, I can read the book, I can do the work. And now, great. I'm fine. My spouse or my partner or the 5, 10,000 people that work at my company haven't done any work.

[A]

Well, you got to create the opportunities for them. They got to read the book too. Why not? But no, truthfully, the relational piece of this is important, which is that. And by the way, I have a whole lot of studies on this. There are three characteristics of our emotional allies in life. Do you want to guess what they are?

[B]

Three characteristics of an emotional ally. Okay, I feel like I'm gonna probably miss. Not even define what a, A characteristic is, but I would say like supportive.

[A]

Yeah, like those kind of attributes. Yeah.

[B]

Aesthetic, supportive, empathetic, caring, Loving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, is this what you're talking about?

[A]

You're in the right direction.

[B]

Okay, so.

[A]

So the top three are non judgmental.

[B]

Oh, non judgmental. That's good.

[A]

It's a huge one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think people feel like they're endlessly judged. Yeah.

[B]

And social media doesn't help, so we all feel it all the time.

[A]

The second is good listening. Can you just listen a little bit more, please? Not you. I'm not telling you. Can you stop talking in this book?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the third is empathy and compassion. There are other little ones, but those are the three big. And by the way, those show up cross culturally for me, whether I'm in China or Australia or England or Spain or Italy. Now, interestingly enough, ask yourself, have you worked in a. And now you have your own business, but have you worked for other people in the past?

[B]

Yeah. When I started my career, I worked in a huge, huge Fortune 1000 company. I worked in smaller companies of 100, 200 people. Yes.

[A]

How many of the bosses that you had were concerned about your well being?

[B]

Some, but not many.

[A]

Yeah. How many of them showed up as non judgmental, good listeners who had a lot of compassion?

[B]

I would say very few. I would say very few because I feel like the bosses I had were more traditional bosses and they, they cared about my well being to a degree, as long as it aligned with the business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's like a, A caveat.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

There's like a. There's like a. You know, you have to, so. But I think that's what most people who are high performers think. Like, I care about your well being, but what if you're, what if, what if your goals or your passions don't align with what I'm trying to accomplish?

[A]

Then you shouldn't work together. You know, that's, that's, you know, we, you have, all organizations have values, but the point is, is that each of us is healthier, is happier. So I have very strong research on this. We are higher in our ability to deal with our feelings. We are physically healthier, mentally healthier. We actually get better sleep at night. And we have higher life satisfaction and higher purpose and meaning in our lives when we work with people, our bosses, who are highly emotionally intelligent.

[B]

So then this leads to the question, why do people suppress emotions at work?

[A]

Because they've been taught to leave their.

[B]

Emotions at the door, which leads to lower performance.

[A]

Exactly. And again, it's not about emotional indulgence. It's about recognizing that, yes, I have employees who are stressed right now. Let me give them strategies and support systems to help them alleviate the stress. Because a less stressed employee is going to be a better performer. And it's not about getting rid of stress. I actually like to hire people who have a little bit of anxiety. They get stuff done. I appreciate that. You know, the person who's like, whatever, like, I'm not interested, you know, I like a little anxiety. But it's, it's at a peak. Once it's chronic, you're done. The workload, you know, the work, the quality diminishes.

[B]

One thing that you, you speak about when you're trying to like sort of help someone else regulate. You mentioned the three characteristics. So non judgmental active listening, empathy and compassion. But no one's looking for a fixer or a problem solver. And I think that's a good reframe because I think that everybody tries, especially people that are those three things. I think they can incorrectly assume that, well, let me just go in and tell you what to do. I figured it out. I love you, I care about you, I want you to be your best self. But I'm going to try and impose my knowledge and like fix your emotions or whatever. And that doesn't work.

[A]

That's not what people want. And by the way, like, for parents who are listening, it's the worst thing for your kid. You're not teaching them resilience. You know, they're never going to build the muscle. No one can build your biceps for you. Right? You can encourage your kid with you being a good role model to exercise and go to the gym, but you can't build their biceps.

[B]

Why does this matter? Emotional regulation, emotional education. Why does this matter now more than ever?

[A]

It's funny, I was doing a talk now. It's called why Irregulation? Why now?

[B]

Oh, that works. I didn't know that.

[A]

I know that wasn't a setup. I know that works and I'm glad you brought it up. And I think it goes back to a little bit of what we talked about earlier. I think a, we are on overdrive. I know, but I don't know about you, but my brain is on overdrive. I'm just like, I just got out of this conference where everybody's an influencer. I was like, I am not enough. And like, how does this person. I'm like, I know that. I know more than they do. They have 15 million followers. I don't have any. Oh. I mean, it was like endless overdrive of. And then nobody was actually watching me present. You know why? Because they were all taping my presentation. It was the weirdest moment. Like, I'm here. I'm like presenting to thousands of people. And like, I'm not. I'm looking at cameras of phones. Yeah, it was the weirdest experience.

[B]

That's because you're at an influencer event.

[A]

But yes, yes, but still, it's weird. It is weird. I'm sorry, but my point is that. And it's like the conversations with people that I had were all about like, next, next, next, next, next. When your brain is in that kind of overdrive, your body and your mind are going to go nuts. And so I think kids are that way. We know the average high schooler is six hours a day on their phones. That means they're not doing what we're doing right now, which is eye contact and having conversations. In my research and others research, it shows that kids prefer texting each other and even talking to each other.

[B]

So now we're more isolated than ever before. We're lonelier than ever before.

[A]

We're going to AI for relationships.

[B]

Yeah, that's a whole other can of worms. Yeah.

[A]

And by the way, that's all stemming from a lack of real connection from early childhood on. Families who balance these technologies, you know, have kids who are healthier, happier and more, you know, etc. So that's. Number one, is this the overdrive. Number two is all about, like the societal stuff. Crises and wars and violence. And, you know, by the way, when I was a kid, you know, I Hated school, but I wasn't worried about school shootings. Do you know that last year in the United States of America, there were 80 school shootings?

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

80. So that's not like a little number. So if you're a kid right now who hears that you're worrying that your school is going to be next, so.

[B]

You live in a fight or flight mode.

[A]

Correct. That's where we're at right now. And so this is why we need to a. In my opinion, emotion regulation, by the way, if you ask me for my real big vision is that CEOs, government leaders, it's a requirement to learn this stuff. Parents, leaders of schools, teachers, and kids themselves. So we have an emotionally intelligent kind of world.

[B]

Who suffers the most when this education isn't part of a curriculum or they don't learn it young?

[A]

The kid, the youngest, with the least amount of power.

[B]

So they're growing up without the education, with this constant overwhelm in a society that is. It's really just a society that is promoting comparison and anxiety and stress and expectations. And now they have this, this again, this hypercharged environment they're growing up in. They have no tools to deal with it. So the, the effect of not understanding this in 2025 and beyond is going to be even more pronounced and lead to even more mental health issues with adults.

[A]

Yeah. And guess what? What we want to do as a society and what we're doing is quick fixes which don't work. And what we also are doing is, you know, like, I'll give you, I gave a speech at a big psychiatry conference. Less phones. What?

[B]

Less phones?

[A]

Well, that's the obvious. But. But, yes, but here, no, here's the kicker. You know, I really give a good talk. I'm just, you know, just saying. And so these psychiatrists came up to me afterwards and they said, hey, Mark, you know, great talk, but we've had a meeting about this and we predict that we need about 10,000 more psychiatrists to support all the mental health problems in our nation. I said, dude, my job is to put you out of business. And so we have a society that is actually willing to spend more money and resources on treating people with mental illness than knowing that the work that I and others do and as an early preventionist is much more cost effective and will lead to a healthier existence for children and the adults in our future.

[B]

I hope that more people pick up your work and teach it. And I think it's like, because.

[A]

Say that again.

[B]

I hope that More people pick up your work and teach it and run with it and learn it. Because what you're actually describing, again, I'm not as knowledgeable about the mental health and psychology fields as you are. But what you're describing as prevention is something that, on the, on the other side with medical issue, like, like physical issues, health and wellness issues like physical health and wellness, it's all, I mean, it's like sick care. It's never health care. Right. It's always, it's always after the problem occurs, then you get some drugs to fix it or you go to a doctor to fix it. After you get sick, after you get the disease. After what? After? So, I mean, a lot of what I believe in is prevention is fixing the leading indicator that's going to lead to the hopefully, you know, better life. And that's the sleep, the nutrition, the activity. Like when you do these things properly, you're going to have less of all the other ailments.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

But it's. So it's the same issue in mental health.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

You are the fix that's going to cause a healthier, a mentally healthier individual. Whereas adding 10,000 more psychologists is just fixing poor mental health and people can't even afford it.

[A]

You know, I, I worked in New York City. There's a child psychiatry institute that charges 900 an hour.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So who's getting the treatment? The privileged kids. And I just, you know, I get it, but I, it makes me.

[B]

No, there's also no, like, there's no reason for that. Like, I know that there's a lot of great therapists that really want the best for their, for their clients, but the business model also doesn't work well. Because if everybody's healed, then you stop making money.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

If there are no more diseases, then pharmaceutical companies don't make money anymore.

[A]

Yeah. And this is why we need a whole new way of thinking about prevention. Yes, prevention and what it means to live a good life. And living a good life is the things that we spoke about. It's about the biological, the budget stuff of exercise and nutrition and sleep. But it's also about having a healthy mindset. It's about knowing what you're feeling. It's about knowing how to breathe properly and meditate. It's about knowing how to have positive self talk. It's about having healthy relationships and eventually saying that this is not just for my life, but my, my job in life is to, is to pay it forward.

[B]

But after all the research you've done, so you've been researching this for how long?

[A]

Over 30 years, about 30 years now.

[B]

30 years. So this was, this has been your whole career? More or less, yeah.

[A]

I don't know anything else except about emotions.

[B]

What has been the most surprising thing that you've discovered?

[A]

Sadly, the resistance to education, to learning about this stuff. My job is not to learn about feelings. My job is not to talk about feelings. It's the resistance to really incorporating this into parenting, into schools and into workplaces.

[B]

So basically you said differently. We have all the tools for everybody to be happier, healthier, live better lives. Obviously you still do research, but we have the fundamentals that have been proven time and time again with tons of data, 100%, that if somebody influences right now in their lives and their kids lives, they will be significantly happier, happier.

[A]

Healthier and live longer.

[B]

So the goal is to reframe the apprehension about education and understand that it's.

[A]

Not the next generation of people who have an emotion Education are the people who are leading our companies in our country.

[B]

If people want to learn more about this, where do they go? So we have your newest book. So your newest book, dealing with feelings. Use your emotions to create the life you want. That is available now. So wherever you get your books, wherever you get them, Amazon, whatever. I'll put a link in the show notes. Sure. Where else can people watch your talks, follow you?

[A]

My website has a lot of stuff. You know, I've written a lot of articles for Time magazine and you know, Wall Street Journal and other places like that so that they can download and read, you know, fun little articles. And then the app that I co created with Ben Silberman, who's the co founder of Pinterest, called How We Feel, which is free on Android and iOS. We have about three and a half million users. People love it and it's a nice tool to help you build emotional awareness. I think reading and the app together is like a good combo.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

And.

[B]

You know, you've done a lot of work already. You have the strategies at work. What are you interested in now that could really impact people in the future? What is sort of the next.

[A]

Yeah, it's funny you ask that. It's a trigger.

[B]

Why is it a trigger?

[A]

Because I think that's the way we think in life, is what's next? What's next? And one of the things that I pride myself on is going deeper and deeper and deeper with the same thing. Like I haven't achieved my goals yet. Every school is not doing this. Every family's not doing it. And so my next to be frank is to figure out how to get people to do what we know from the research works.

[B]

Okay. So if you could tell and pass on sort of one lesson to your younger self, or however you want to frame it, something that has been so impactful in your understanding of emotion, if you could only pass on that one lesson, what would that lesson be and why? The most important lesson that you'd want to leave your younger self in the.

[A]

Audience with it goes back to my first book, which is permission to feel. You got to give yourself permission to feel. It's okay to have these feelings. There's no bad emotion. And our job as friends, as parents, as lovers is to give everybody we love and care about permission to feel, too.