Mikhail Andersson - NYC's Most Wanted Tattoo Artist | From Broke Designer to $2,000/Hour Empire

Summary

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Success Story Podcast with Scott D. Clary

Episode: Mikhail Anderson – NYC's Most Wanted Tattoo Artist | From Broke Designer to $2,000/Hour Empire
Date: August 31, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Mikhail Anderson, a renowned tattoo artist who built his name from the ground up—moving from Russia’s criminalized tattoo culture to NYC’s elite art scene, charging up to $2,000/hour for his work. The discussion centers on craftsmanship in tattooing, the evolution of tattoo culture, the business of creative entrepreneurship, personal reinvention, and the analog-digital divide for artists.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Tattoo Culture in Russia (00:00–06:00)

• Tattooing Was Taboo: In Russia, tattoos were linked to gangs and criminal culture. There was social stigma; Anderson recalls being told, “Oh, you’re going to go to hell,” by subway passengers after getting a neck tattoo.
• Lack of Legitimacy: Tattooing wasn’t recognized as a profession—no professional codes, ambiguous legal status, and efforts to make it a “medical procedure.”
• Early Inspiration: Influenced by rock, biker culture, and a rebellion against a strict family, Anderson was drawn to subcultures seen as countercultural in Russia.

2. Art School, Self-Teaching, and Copying Masters (06:00–12:00)

• Graphic Design Foundation: Anderson attended college for graphic design, which taught some business fundamentals but little on modern marketing.
• On Self-Teaching: Emphasizes copying as a way to learn: “The best way to learn something is just to copy.” (05:45)
• Mentorship: His approach to apprentices: copy a piece you admire to understand an artist’s choices.

3. The Reality of Creative Careers (12:00–15:00)

• Pursuing Passion Amid Poverty: “I literally, from making decent money, went into sleeping on the air mattress because I couldn’t afford much.” (12:14)
• Addictive Shop Culture: Early shop life was immersive, almost communal, with a diverse range of clients and constant learning.

4. Crafting Quality: The Anatomy of a Good Tattoo (15:02–20:00)

• Well-Designed, Well-Placed, Lasts: Good tattoos must flow with the body, use black/white contrast, and be composed to age well.
  “A good tattoo should be—when you go close to a person, it should look good, but when you step far away, you should recognize what it is.” (17:14)
• Value in Color Tattooing: Tattoos should work in black and white—contrast and structure are essential (18:05–20:00).

Memorable Quote:

“If you remove the color and it still works as black and white, then that’s a very good indicator of a good tattoo.”
— Mikhail Anderson (18:05)

5. Learning from Other Disciplines & Mirror Thinking (20:24–28:00)

• Mirroring for Clarity: Flipping art in a mirror or upside down to spot flaws—a lesson borrowed from legendary photographers (21:00–22:43).
• Analogous Experiences: Writer’s block and visual block are similar; seeing your work in a different context helps spot mistakes.

6. Artistic Influences & Art History (23:41–28:39)

• Classical Inspiration: Anderson draws from Renaissance painting, traditional art history, and top-tier tattooists globally.
• Perspective Lessons: Unique perspectives like in icon paintings, where the vanishing point goes “into the viewer.”
  “Everything goes into you.” (26:48)

7. Technology, AI, & the Modern Tattoo Business (28:39–36:55)

• AI as a Double-Edged Sword: Clients now bring AI-generated images: “It’s been for past maybe half a year to a year, people would bring AI-generated images as designs to get tattooed.” (30:00)
• Responsibility in Curation: Discusses risks of tattooing poor AI designs; “Your work is your business card.”
• Authenticity Concerns: Some artists use AI to post fake work as marketing—Anderson decries this, favoring proven, healed real tattoos.

8. Social Media’s Role in Success (39:44–47:00)

• Instagram’s Game-Changer: Moving to NYC and using Instagram “was a turning point.” Viral posts attracted “10,000 overnight just for tattoo I did.” (41:23)
• Smart Business Growth: Anderson saved $100k before opening his shop, did most things himself, and expanded carefully, keeping risk in check (50:54).

9. Entrepreneurship & Business Lessons (49:43–56:44)

• Delayed Gratification: Took 9–10 years of honing skills before launching First Class Tattoo in NYC.
• Building Brand Identity: Everything from the shop’s location to its design and marketing was meticulously researched.
• Team Challenges: Loyalty issues emerged—Anderson recounts losing staff to poaching and dealing with internal drama as low points.

Notable Quote:

“People come into your life just to try to use you, but you don’t see it that way because you haven’t had that experience before.”
— Mikhail Anderson (58:06)

10. Reinvention, Side Projects, and Wealth-Building (61:08–69:53)

• Diversification is Key: “Don’t put all eggs in one basket… if you get sick or you’re disabled, you need something that will work for you.” (62:14)
• Real Estate and Passive Income: Owns real estate, self-manages, and emphasizes creating systems where “the money is working for you.”
• Photography as Side Hustle and Therapy: Developed deep interest and skill in photography, mirroring the Renaissance approach to seeing and capturing light and emotion.

11. Analog vs. Digital: The Value of Limitation (74:29–79:45)

• Film vs. Digital:
  • Film instills discipline: “Each single shot is meaningful” (75:14).
  • Shooting less but more thoughtfully creates more valuable memories and better work.
• Purposeful Creation:
  • “Do it to be put on the wall. Don’t just create to create. Create with purpose.” (79:45–79:52)

12. The Power of Balance and Delegation (95:31–102:38)

• Avoid Burnout: Early overwork led to illness—“Everything should be balanced… going less is sometimes more in the long term.” (98:31)
• Hiring and Delegation: Learned to outsource, document processes clearly, and prioritize health and time.

13. Most Important Lessons & Wisdom (107:28–end)

• Health as Number One:
  “The biggest thing is to take care of your health from an early age. Finances are important, but health is most important, because without health you can’t enjoy your life.” (107:28)
• Adaptability:
  “Switching up, changing patterns, detaching from things—you have to be able to adopt to anywhere or anything. It’s a good skill.” (106:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Russian tattoo stigma:
  “When I got my neck tattoo, I would get stopped on a subway by old ladies. They’re like, oh, you’re going to go to hell.” (00:08)
• On art as universal discipline:
  “The more different things you know, it’s easier to adjust and to pivot from one to another.” (00:34)
• On failure and risk:
  “If you have an idea, it’s better to try and to ask… If you try, even if you fail, you fail. But sometimes you try and you succeed.” (99:24)
• On clients and psychology:
  “Tattoo artists should be very good at psychology… try to make clients feel comfortable and understand if something needs to be bigger, or changed.” (32:59)
• On business and life in the US vs. Russia:
  “This is the only country, I think, in the world where you can be financially free and build that as your future.” (61:16)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp (MM:SS) | |--------------------------------------|----------------------| | Early Tattoo Culture in Russia | 00:00–06:00 | | Art School & Copying Masters | 06:00–12:00 | | Starting From Zero | 12:11–14:48 | | What Makes a Good Tattoo | 15:02–20:00 | | Learning from Art History | 23:41–28:39 | | AI in Tattoo Design & Risks | 28:39–36:55 | | Social Media Breakthrough | 39:44–41:39 | | Opening First Class Tattoo | 45:28–49:43 | | Team/Betrayal & Hard Knocks | 56:44–59:52 | | On Balance, Burnout, Delegation | 95:31–102:38 | | Ultimate Advice: Health Above All | 107:28–end |

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Flow & Tone

• Conversational, candid, and pragmatic: Anderson’s tone is direct, drawing from personal pain and triumph.
• Educational and inspirational: Both host and guest focus on practical lessons for creatives and entrepreneurs, exploring their intersection.

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How to Connect & Learn More

• Shop: First Class Tattoos, 52 Canal Street, Manhattan, NYC
• Instagram: @firstclassnyc, @mikhailandersson
• Website: See episode show notes for links

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Closing Wisdom

“Take care of your health from an early age... It’s the most important advice I could give to anyone.”
— Mikhail Anderson (107:28)

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking in-depth understanding, actionable insights, and inspiration from Mikhail Anderson's journey from outcast to NYC’s tattoo elite.

Transcript

[Mikhail Anderson]

Back in the day when I started, it wasn't many shops. Tattoos were mostly criminal culture, a lot of gangs involved. When I got my neck tattoo, I would get stopped on a subway by old ladies. They're like, oh, you're going to go to hell.

[Interviewer]

Some artists paint on canvas, others carve in stone. Mikael Anderson chose human skin as his medium. From Moscow's streets to New York's art scene, he transformed tattooing into a form of high art, fusing realism, geometry and surrealism.

[Mikhail Anderson]

You have to take it slow. I feel like I did mistakes when I was trying to jump into something to do a realistic portrait. When I've never, never done one. My perspective when I started, it was no social media. Some mentors that I had, they said your work is your business card. Anything you put out there, it's your business card. I think the more kind of open minded and more things, you know, it's easier to adjust and to pivot from one to another.

[Interviewer]

He creates work that doesn't just decorate. It tells stories. At First Class Tattoos, he built more than a studio, he built a sanctuary wass where every line, every shade, every image is a transformation.

[Mikhail Anderson]

This is Mikhail Anderson being an artist. You need to see the world. The more art you see, the better stuff you create. If you made certain amount of money, you not to put eggs in one basket. I think sometimes like little steps is even better steps forward. In the long term it's going to be better.

[Interviewer]

So tell me about being a tattoo artist in Russia.

[Mikhail Anderson]

So back in the day when I started, it wasn't many shops, so it was very few shops. And tattoos were mostly criminal culture. It was a lot of gangs involved with the tattoos. It was biker culture and I mean there was a lot of beautiful tattoos but it's, it was not recognized. It's still not recognized as a job, as a profession in the country. So there's no code for it. So if you say your tattoo artist, everybody looks at you like what really? And then they're trying to, they try to enforce actually a thing recently they are trying to put it as a medical procedure and make people do certification. But it's, it's so tattoo. Yeah. For tattooing. It's like, why, but, but when I, when I started it was like a taboo. I remember when I, I mean people had tattoos. A lot of people do have tattoos there. But I remember when I got my neck tattoo, I forgot it was like 2008 or something. And I would get stopped on a subway by old ladies. They're like, oh, you're going to go to hell. And like, stuff like, just out of, out of nowhere, you just taking a subway to commute, and somebody will come to you, like, be like, what the. The is that? Like, who just put the green on your neck? Oh, they're like, oh, it's tattoo.

[Interviewer]

Wow, that's. So why did you. If it's obviously not part of Russian culture like it is, but it isn't at the same time, it's like counterculture. So I feel like the way you're describing it, it sounds like when you started tattooing in Russia, it just sounds like Russia was like, maybe like 20 years behind the US in terms of, like, tattoo culture.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Probably, yes.

[Interviewer]

So then the question is, where did the passion for tattooing come from when it was, you know, what you grew up with was, you know, gangs and, and all these other things that were kind of like affiliated with tattoos. What made you want to sort of get into this industry and, and build a career in it?

[Mikhail Anderson]

So after school, I actually went to college for graphic design and we had a lot of art classes. But I was also, I was hanging out with people. They were writing motorcycles and were into all this, like, heavy metal kind of.

[Interviewer]

So you're part of the culture.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Rock culture. But I was, I was young, but it was, it was something. I don't know, I was like, my family was very strict and I remember when I first got a piercing, I pierced my ear and I came home. My mom was like, my mom saw it right away when I came home. It was probably ninth grade in school. And she was like, all right, if you don't take it out, you can just leave outside. She, like, packed my shit. Then she put it outside and she was like, you have to take it out. But I was like, but the other, other people, other guys have it in my school, like, why can't I have it? But she was like, no, like, you cannot have longer hair than this. You cannot have any piercings.

[Interviewer]

So you did the exact opposite of everything your parents wanted. Do you find that when you go to graphic design school, are there things that you've actually learned from design school that really, really help you in your job, or is there a lot that you had to forget to become a good artist?

[Mikhail Anderson]

So we've actually had some stuff like marketing, and we had a lot of things like business related, but it was back in the day when there was no social media. So we learned, we learned things that do not apply to nowadays, whatever, whatever we're doing. But I think in general, once you like if the school good or if the college is good, if you learn different aspects from different things. I think the more kind of open minded and more things, you know, it's, it's easier to adjust and to pivot from one to another. Because if they just teach you like a standard one thing and that's what you know, and then when things break down and you just being stuck because you cannot adjust your brain to something else, I think that's, that's the thing. But I mean, I think nowadays or in general, you have to learn by yourself on your own. Like, you have to find what inspires you, who inspire you. And like I always tell it, I even have a book, but it's, it's actually funny, I've never even thought about it. But I, I always know in my head that the best way to learn something that somebody did is just to copy. And I always said it, like the masters that painted like Caravaggio and stuff like that, they would make their apprentices to copy their pieces or parts of their pieces and copy and copy over and over so they can figure it out how they did it and learn. And then once they have that base, they can do something on their own.

[Interviewer]

Is that how you like? Is that how you learned?

[Mikhail Anderson]

No, but in general, like, I think it really applies to a lot of things I tell my apprentices. Like if you have somebody you really admire as an artist, I was like, take a piece and just try to draw the same, like exact the same. I mean, you first can trace and then you can try to put a paper there and try to copy it without tracing. And once you're doing it, you figure out like, you think what they thought when they created it and like, you see the lines, you see how they try to balance things and it kind of imprints in your brain. And then the more you do, the more you understand that style or how they did it. I think it's like a good thing. And the same with like anything video photography, like find who, who you like and who you admire and what inspires you and then try to copy it, try to figure out why and how they did it. I think it's like a good thing.

[Interviewer]

Like, it's so interesting when it comes to creativity because the first time you do anything creative, it doesn't even matter how passionate you are about it, it's always going to suck. Like it will always suck. Like if you're a graphic designer or you're creating video content, which is sort of my world, or if you're writing or if you're actually drawing on someone's skin, like the first. I don't know. I don't know. But you can tell me if the first version of you as a tattoo artist sucked. It was very unforgiving. But I think that for most creatives, the first version really is not great. And the only way to get great is through just doing it again and again and again and again. But you made a good point. Like, when you're drawing on someone's skin, you can't really do a do over. So how do you get the confidence as a tattoo artist to say, okay, I'm not just going to be tracing and drawing on paper. I'm going to take my skill set and I'm actually going to draw on someone's skin, which is going to be with them for the rest of their life. Like, do you remember your first.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Ever tattoo?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yes, I do. Yeah. Well, I knew in my head that I cannot do anything complicated, so I started and I forced my apprentices to do the same. I started doing just black and then knowing that I can fill it with a black. So I like any. Any designs. When I started, I would do black outline and make sure that I can fill inside the lines with a black too. So it was like symbols or something small, but not, not small, because small you can still mess up the line. They'll be crooked, but like, mostly like black symbols. They can do outline and then you can fill it with the black, and then if the outline are crooked, you can just fix the lines a little bit. So I was, I was doing that for a while until I moved to something and I was doing more like traditional or Japanese for a little while too, because you just do lines and the designs are pretty bold and big, so it's. It's easier than to do something intricate and complicated. But, yeah, I mean, you have to take it slow because I. I feel like I did mistakes when I was trying to jump into something, like, to do a realistic portrait when I've never done one.

[Interviewer]

Like, if someone's face.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, yeah. And then. And we all see.

[Interviewer]

We all see those, Those turn into memes on social media.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, but that, that was before social media.

[Interviewer]

I actually got.

[Mikhail Anderson]

I actually have a portrait on my leg that I lasered, but it was like, the guy at a shop was like, I've never done a portrait, but he did realistic stuff like roses, animals and stuff like that. And he was like, can I practice on you? So when you're in a tattoo shop, you're like, yeah, why not? This stupid idea? But I mean, now, thank God we have synthetic skin and fake skin that you can actually practice, which doesn't feel exactly the same as a human skin, but you can practice on it, and you can figure out the way you approach things and your skill, and then you can tattoo after on the skin, on actual human skin. But I make. If I have an apprentice, I make them tattoo synthetic skin for a while if it's, like, complicated design so they can build into it. But, yeah, it is, like, a tricky thing, because when I first started, when you try to move into something different, and I feel like I got recognized on social media when I did something different with the tattooing, because I was like, oh, let me actually do watercolor on the skin. And that was. That drew some attention, like, a lot of attention when I posted on social media, because it was something different from most people. And I was like, oh, I can do all these drips and, like, splatters. Yeah. As the color. Because tattoo before, it's like, what I have. It's like, should be lines as black lines and, like, stuff that is, like, structural. Right. So you can see what it is, but to put the color coming out of the lines and forming, like, a drip or some whatever, like a wash. How you doing the watercolor paper? Not many people were doing. It was, like, very few. Maybe two, three people. And when I. I was like, let me do something. I mean, it's scary. You're trying to do something different, but when you do it and then you post on social media, it gets a lot of attention, and you get a lot of attention. People are like, wow, because it is different.

[Interviewer]

How did you know? So take me back to, like, when you're first starting out in Moscow and. And still kind of taboo, but obviously, you. You love what you do. How did you know that tattooing was your calling? How did you know that this is something that you wanted to do for the rest of your life? Was there a moment? Was it gradual? Was it when you came to the U? Like, what was the thing that was like, this is it. I need to do this for the rest of my life. I'm so passionate about this. And I'm assuming it was difficult at the beginning to make money. Like, I don't really have to begin.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Really difficult for a few years. Actually, I think I was doing more money when I was doing graphic design, and I also did freelance graphic design. I was making a lot because each single thing, like a website or branding for. For a company was like, A thousand bucks that you make out of it. And tattoos, when. When you started and there was no Facebook or Instagram or, like, social media, it wasn't like, you have to do a tattoo and then people only recommend you if they see it on somebody, and people will come to. Or unless you have a website, and then you cannot charge much money because you're just starting. So I literally, when I tattooed first half a year, I think I asked people to COVID support supplies. So I would just do something and just ask them to pay and cover supplies. So I literally, from making decent money, I went into sleeping on the air mattress because I couldn't afford much. But I don't know, like, I. I really was drawn by, like, I've been around tattoo artists back then, and my. I had a lot of tattoo artist friends that tattooed, and I just love the energy. I love the people that did it. It was like. It was different from corporate world. I was. I. My parents were trying to push me to work in a corporate or work for a company, and I did work for a company for a little bit, but I wanted that freedom of, like, making art on people and hanging out with interesting people, you know, because it was always in a tattoo shop. So all kinds of people. It's actors, gangs, drivers, politicians, all kinds of people. In its stories, it was. It was really fun. It was like almost a rock band on tour with, like, just people come together, get drunk or go play with a strike ball or something, or, like, and then do art at the same time. And everybody had stories. Everybody traveled around, and I don't know, I was just drawn to it back then. I didn't know that I'm gonna do it for the rest of my life. I just. I don't know. I was really. It was something different. And I wanted to literally live inside a tattoo shop. I feel like first few years when I worked at a shop, I was there every day, like, 24 7. I just wanted to be around people. I wanted to see what they do, how they do it. And it was. It was amazing, I think. And even after the shop was closed, when I was here in Florida, we would go hang out together and, like, skateboard and do some stuff. Like, people from a shop. It was like, almost a community.

[Interviewer]

How do you define good work or a good tattoo? Like, what is your litmus test for quality outside of it just not looking good as we all. We've all seen bad tattoos. But what is your quality, your sort of gauge?

[Mikhail Anderson]

I mean, I think a lot of aspects from it should Be well done that it's going to age well. It should be placed correctly and be flowy with the body because every single place is different. And like, for example, I have certain parts of the arm, when I twist it or when I bend, it's going to distort whatever I place there. So if we put in a portrait or put in something, we have to place that it's not going to distort in a place that is visible. And there's a lot of things that come to mind that I've learned. For example, if you're tattooing a face and there's a shadow side and a light side and your arm the same when the arm is completely down, when the sun hits the arm, this will be a light side and this will be a shadow side. You don't want to put a shadow side of a portrait on the light side and put a light side the opposite way, because anytime somebody's going to wear the work, it's still natural. Light hits it that way. And if there's a shadow side in the light side, it's gonna look a little weird. It's better when the shadow side where the arms shadow side is. And then it's like that. It's little things that I don't know. I don't keep in mind. It's more natural because I've done it so many times, but. And I don't think about it physically, but those things make sense. It's like art and whatever is in the world. Everything has laws and physics to it, I think.

[Interviewer]

Are these. Are these sort of universal art rules, or are these more specific to tattoo?

[Mikhail Anderson]

I mean, there's all universal art rules and, like, things. As a color theory, I think it applies to painting and tattoos and all kinds of stuff. But I. I think tattoo looks good, in my opinion, that it's well designed, it placed well, and that it's going to age well for at least 10 years.

[Interviewer]

At least 10 years.

[Mikhail Anderson]

And.

[Interviewer]

And when you say a tattoo is aging well, I mean, it' not fading. It's not looking like how. How old are the tattoos on. On your arms? Because they look good.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Everything's pretty old. I mean, those are probably eight years.

[Interviewer]

That's not bad for eight years.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, every. Everything. Like, I. Last tattoo I've got on my leg was in 2020. So I think if tattoo is done well, it should look really good. And I. In my opinion, a good tattoo should be once you go closer to a person, it should look good, but once you also step far away, you should recognize what it is. Like if I'm further than you are and I see what you have on your arm, it shouldn't look like a mess. I should see at least that it has some flow or what it is that you have. That, in my opinion, is a good tattoo.

[Interviewer]

When I was looking up some of your. Some of your past work, you had a test for quality, and I'm curious if it still applies, because you had mentioned that if you remove the color and it still works as black and white, then that's a very good indicator of a good tattoo. Is that still the case?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yes, especially. Especially for color tattoos. I think the color tattoo should have value because a lot of people would tattoo all these colors. Even if it's a flower, for example, they will tattoo all these colors, but it doesn't have enough contrast, so there is not enough black, or it doesn't even have to be black. I have actually a rose tattooed on me, and a guy didn't use any black on it. I don't know why, but the color theory and the color balance works so well that there is enough from the light tones to dark tones, which I think for any tattoo, especially color tattoos, black and white, you see its values that are from black to your skin and a lot of black and gray. People that tattoo black and gray, they use the skin as the lightest tone and a black as the darkest tone. So they use. When the light tones are. They just use your skin, so it's a contrast like that. But when people tattoo colors, some people make it look a little messy because they put. If you turn it into black and white, there's a lot of the same gray tone into the colors with not enough values to it. So if you turn black and white, it almost look like. Like a muted paper that put over, like. Almost like what you have a carpet. It's like, all the same tones, but they're different colors. They'll be red or blue or something else, but they're all the same, and it just doesn't have enough contrast. So that's. That's an indicator of a bad tattoo, in my opinion, because if you look at a traditional, there's skin as left as a. As a light tone, and it's. Even if it's a one bold color, but there's still skin between the line.

[Interviewer]

There's color contrast, too.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah. So it gives it that huge contrast from color to the. To the skin. But a lot of people, when they do realism or they do something with the colors, they don't have it in their head. They don't keep it in their head to be. To keep those values. So you need to think like design you. I like putting a design and looking in a mirror to see it flipped so I could see the issues when design is unbalanced. Because when you see it with your eyes, you kind of. Once you're working on it, you're used to what you see so much. Then if you go to the mirror, it flips it.

[Interviewer]

It forces you to see it differently.

[Mikhail Anderson]

It forces you to see it differently. And it was actually interesting. I was looking at some photographers and I think it was Cartier Busson or somebody with a big name. He like was reviewing somebody's portfolio and the guy was describing. He brought him photos and he just put the photos upside down. He just looks at photos and the guy was like, why are you looking at photos upside down? And he was like, I'm just looking at light and balance with the shapes. I'm not looking at photo as in a normal way, but I want to see if it's all composition and balanced if it's upside down. So it's like trick your eyes with. You put something or you draw something on paper and you just go in a mirror and put it in front of the mirror and look at it. And then you'll see mistakes or directional lines or diagonal lines or imbalance with like sometimes if there's too much on one side, you have to balance it somewhere in opposite way. So it kind of has like a counterbalance in things.

[Interviewer]

This is so interesting. So I. I've also. What you're describing, I've experienced in a different context. So it's almost like when you're a creative and you spent too much time on a piece. And I write a lot. So sometimes I've noticed that when I write, say I'm writing on my. On my laptop and I want to publish a piece. I don't know if it's similar or different. Maybe it's the same mechanism in the brain, but I'll actually read it on a different screen or on a phone or on anywhere else. Or I'll read it the next day, I'll read it somewhere else so that I can actually pay attention to the things that I for some reason when I'm actually creating it in that first. The first version of it. It's like your brain is trained to skip over the problems. But if you find a way to consume it in another way. Mirror flipping it upside down, sending it to yourself for me and like reading a A piece on a. On a phone as opposed to on a laptop. All of a sudden your brain sees all these problems for the first time, that they were always there. You just couldn't see them. So I think that that's an interesting thing as a creative, because you get so involved in your work, and I think that you're. There must be some psychology reason why your brain passes over these flaws when you're staring right at them, because you should see them, but you don't. And this is a way to force. Recognize the flaws in the work.

[Mikhail Anderson]

I think it's the. It's the same like what. What you said is the same in art. And I think we basically, we just get used to. If we would see it the first time and there is mistakes, it would. It would bother us. But if you give it to somebody and they would read it, if they are professional in that field, it would bother them. Like, I had people in a shop that work with me. They usually, especially people who did apprenticeship with me, and they work, they would make a design and they kind of are like stuck with something and they bring it to me. And me like, just briefly seeing it, I see all mistakes right away. And I was like, just move this a little bit to the left and make this a little bit bigger. Yeah, that what you said. I think it's exactly the same as, like, if you type it on a laptop, you put on a phone and you read it from your phone, or in a different environment, you start seeing other mistakes or other things.

[Interviewer]

Who do you study? Because you've mentioned that you study painters. Not like modern painters, you study Renaissance painters, traditional art. Who do you study that sort of influences you, teaches you, and why as painters or I guess, well, you, you, you tell me. I mean, do you study classical painters? Do you study Renaissance artwork? Do you study other tattoo artists? Like, who is your, I would say, mentor that doesn't even know you exist? Who's the person that you study?

[Mikhail Anderson]

I like a couple tattoo artists that I always watch. Yes. And I.

[Interviewer]

Maybe they do know you exist, but.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think in. In my world, the thing is, if you want to see how somebody works, just go and get tattooed by them. It's like, it's like the easiest thing. It's the same with probably you. If you want to learn how somebody does a podcast, just go and get up in the podcast with them and you'll see the whole exact setup. You. You'll see what they ask and how they approach things, and this will be probably expensive. But the quickest lesson for you because you don't have to sit and figure things out with a trial and error. You go to somebody who is established and very good in their style and I guarantee you they did the same. Like I know people that are top, they usually hang out around the top and they usually hang out around the people or hang out before or grew up together or something else that do thinks really well in their style. That's what it is. You have to be. You have to be around something like that because figuring things out by yourself, it's going to take years. And I, I think that's the, that's the easiest way. But I do study a lot of different things and I like to be diverse. I don't want to be stuck just in art. And I've studied art history actually in college and I had to pass an exam on it from probably icon paintings. And you know, the interesting thing is like we have. In regular paintings we have perspective and we have to follow perspective. In icon paintings the perspective goes in you, in a. In a viewer in their solar plex. So the icon paintings as considered after all these rock paintings, when the people start painting religious stuff, the. All the perspective from the painting goes inside you as, as yours is center. And it's very interesting. Nobody, like a lot of people don't talk about it, but it is like that.

[Interviewer]

Can you explain that? Because I want to understand this. So what do you mean by perspective?

[Mikhail Anderson]

So once you, once you draw a cube, right?

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Mikhail Anderson]

The, the lines, that is the, the sides of the cube they go. And they come together as a, as a perspective because things as further they are, they smaller and they go like this. But when there is icons of like sayings or something else, if you look at the perspective, their perspective goes into center of you as they would think that this is the solar plexus, the center of the universe. So everything goes into you.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, I've never. Not a lot of people talk about it, but it like I had to study classical art and from phases from. To modern art to pop art to all that stuff and know exactly.

[Interviewer]

This was like around like so this, this particular idea college. No, no, no. Not, not. Sorry, I didn't mean when you studied. I meant this particular idea. These would be paintings of like kings or religious leaders or things like that that would have this particular perspective.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, the perspective goes into you. It's a. It's an interesting thing. But then they switch to like how they see the world. They would switch to the perspective as it Goes like how we see it with the eyes.

[Interviewer]

So you still, I mean, but when you study that, when you said, first of all, I think that art history is fascinating, I don't know much, I don't know much about it compared to you, obviously. But when you study that, does that impact, like how you do your work? Does it. Do any of those themes actually cross over into modern day or no?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, of course, but I don't think I've had it in that deep. But I actually spoke or watched some seminars of like modern days, like oil painters, when they describe certain things, like if they take the Renaissance painting and they just put it in Photoshop and the same with the, with that black and white that I say. But they would turn in a black and white the painting and then they would push the contrast to the max as possible. Right? And they would say, hey, look, the light shape, frames, everything is light and connected and the dark is almost all connected as well. So if you push it. So certain things, once you study, you start to understand how the contrast work, how the light works and stuff like that. It definitely helps with the tattooing and modern day tattooing, even in any style, I think.

[Interviewer]

Do you think that. Okay, so this is now fast forward to all the we're chatting with this for repress record. So now there's so many AI tools that help you create, right?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And when the one issue with AI tools is of course for a graphic designer, yes, it could in theory replace their job. But I made the comment for a tattoo artist, I don't think that it's going to be replacing your job anytime soon unless there is some sort of automated device that can draw art on a human body without a human holding the pen or the. But I think that the bigger issue is that the amount of knowledge that you have, I think that younger artists are going to outsource a lot of that learning to AI tools I don't like. If, for example, somebody wants a tattoo, do you see a younger artist going on like a chatgpt, asking for a design?

[Mikhail Anderson]

They probably do.

[Interviewer]

And then, yes, can you trace that design? But do they actually understand why that design is good? I don't think that if they do that, they'll know even a fraction of what you just told me.

[Mikhail Anderson]

I think the artist should know basics and should know the art history and composition and how the light works. Because we actually do tattoo remove Watershop. And I just had. It was actually funny. The guy came in, he just got a tattoo and it was a scorpion that was probably AI generated, and it's been for past maybe half a year to a year, people would bring AI generated images as designs to get tattooed. Because they don't go on Google and search, hey, I want a scorpion. And find a photo of a scorpion. They Type in a ChatGPT, a Scorpio tattoo, and a Chat GPT generates it, but sometimes it generates it unrealistic. So the guy came into an artist with the image, and they tattooed it. It was probably made in AI, and one claw is different than another claw on an image. And then the guy got tattooed super clean, super nice. And then he came home, he looked at it, he started googling, and he didn't find exact scorpion. He's like, I've never seen scorpions like this. And he was. He came in and he. He was like, hey, I just got tattooed yesterday. It was not in my shop. He was like, I just got a tattoo yesterday. He was like, you. I know you guys do laser. He was like, can we just laser this claw?

[Interviewer]

So, like, I mean, like that. Yes. So, but the tattoo artist still like, is it. Is there no risk? I. I, like, maybe you're gonna say, well, there. You know, if the client comes in with a drawing, then we just do what the client wants. But there has to be responsibility on the tattoo artist to be like, okay, maybe this isn't the best design.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yes, it should be on everybody. I feel like my perspective, when I started, it was no social media. And what I've been taught by some mentors that I had, they said, your work is your business card. You tattoo on somebody. If I walk around and you see this and you're like, oh, my God. Holy. This is amazing. You're gonna be like, hey, who did it? And I was actually flying to here, and I saw a lady in the airport with a tattoo, and I knew who did the tattoo because some styles are recognizable, and some people do specifically, like, I knew exactly who did her sleeve, and the girl worked for me before. I didn't say anything. I didn't interact. But you go. Especially now when it's warm, you go and you see something amazing. You're like, holy shit, who did it? Even if you don't want to get that tattoo, but it might catch your interest. So I think anything you. You put out there, especially tattoos, because it's hard to erase, it's your business card and my business card. And if somebody comes in there like, hey, this is an AI generated image. Or if there is, especially with AI, it has issues with hands. I don't Know why?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's always six fingers.

[Mikhail Anderson]

So if somebody comes with the image and I mean if I put it on somebody, even if the person likes it or what if other people going to make fun of it and then the person just going to have a trauma, you know, and because of what I did on them.

[Interviewer]

Do you turn people away?

[Mikhail Anderson]

No, I try to suggest to do something different. I think it should be like a tattoo artist should be very good at psychology and they should be very well with the clients. Try to make them feel comfortable and understand if, if there is something that needs to be bigger, if something needs to be changed, I think the client should see that perspective. And tattoo artists should take time and show them or have some examples and show like, hey, this is not going to work. Because what you see online, especially now with all this editing tools, Photoshop and all other stuff, is sometimes it's not the same as what you see in person. So a lot of people should be careful nowadays because things get suggested. And then I've seen tattoo artists even post their work that never been done and they just throw Mike Tyson portrait and chat GPTs put there. Can you do this as a tattoo? Chat GPT generates the image and then they post it on their social media saying, hey, I just tattooed that. And it looks, it looks real. Unless you zoom in and you don't see the lines. It's too. It's too real to be true. Yeah, like tattoo.

[Interviewer]

But that's just. That's just fake.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, it's fake. But they. For. Since the whole thing started with AI, some people keep doing it and they gain clients out of it. But I, I feel like more it goes on, more people start realizing and they start doing research because there's things like Reddit and all kinds of stuff. When people post actual things and the more information is there or I would trust somebody. Like I said, like, I go to the gym and I see somebody's tattoo and I'm like, wow, and it's healed. And I'm like, wow, I want to tattoo like that. That's the person I would go to, because I know I've seen something that I like and I want something similar instead of going into somebody's Instagram and seeing all these pictures that they tattooed. But they can also use Photoshop or AI generative tools to clean it up and do all kinds of stuff to it, which I think is going to turn more into stuff like that. But I mean, AI, to be honest with you, is great tool. I feel like it helps to save Time during the research. So sometimes you need to put different things together and the client will come with like a huge concept. And instead of just doing a research on your own and searching like some historical things. I've had a client that came in, he was like, I want to have a battle that there's no photos or drawings from the battle from like between Irish and German, from like whatever World War I. And there is no, no photos. But he was like, I want Germans to wear. When it was World War I, which is. Was a small part somewhere that they fought. And the same with the Irish. And I just threw it in. AI and AI helped to like generate and do research.

[Interviewer]

It's good for research.

[Mikhail Anderson]

It's good certain things. And the same with like creating a concept. If you're saying some people will come and be like, hey, I want like something as a mix like stingray floating in outer space or whatever. I mean I can, I can do it myself. I've done things like that. But I'm just saying for people that are having a hard time visualizing it, or like you have an idea but you have a hard time, you can type in midjourney in different versions and see what it generates. And I've seen photographers do it for concepts. They just say, hey, I want a photo of beautiful woman as a renaissance painting standing in front of the castle with like this and this and this and this yellow dress and dress floating. They, they put all these tags and it creates the concept with the light. Even you don't like the light, but you can take the concept and then you can go to a costume designer and say, hey, can you make me something similar inspired by this as a dress. And then you look for locations, you start looking and you look for the light similar inspired on that. And then you create your own. You don't have to copy anything that AI generates, but it, it helps.

[Interviewer]

It's a tool.

[Mikhail Anderson]

And the same with marketing, I think like you can. I was flying on a plane, I see people type like, what's the. I don't know. The guy was doing some business and he was like typing what's the most unemployment states. And he puts all these things together using AI like super quick for his company. And I was like, well, I mean do research by yourself using Google and reading articles. It's harder versus you type it there.

[Interviewer]

And netsuite is a success story partner. Now what does the future hold for business? If you ask nine experts, you're going to get 10 answers. Bull market, bear market. Interest rates are rising. They're falling. Honestly. At the end of the day, we just need a crystal ball. But until then, over 42,000 businesses have trusted and future proofed themselves with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one COHES platform. With one unified business management suite, there's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control that you need to make quick decisions. With real time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. And when you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next. If I needed this kind of business management system, NetSuite is exactly what I'd use. So whether or not your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges in your business and seize your biggest opportunities. And speaking of opportunities, you have to download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning. The guide is free for all listeners. That's netsuite.com Scott Clary indeed is a success story Partner. Now say you just realized your business needed to hire someone fast. How can you find amazing candidates fast? It's easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job. Post seen on other job sites. Indeed sponsor Jobs helps you stand out and hire fast. And with Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster and it makes a huge difference. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Plus with Indeed sponsored jobs, there's no monthly subscription, no long term contracts. You only pay for results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more vis, just go to indeed.comclary right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com Clary terms and conditions apply. If you're hiring, Indeed is all you need. When did you start making money? And also what was the thing that differentiated you? Or what was your what was the thing that you did that allowed you to make exceptionally more money at tattooing than the average artist?

[Mikhail Anderson]

So I feel like when I after probably a year, year and a half, I started making some money.

[Interviewer]

Moscow.

[Mikhail Anderson]

In Moscow. Yes, probably two, about two years that I was being able to pay for my bills and put money in A savings. And there was still no social media. But I wanted to spend money as traveling. That was my biggest goal because I feel like being an artist, you need to see the world. You need to experience things. And the more how I said, the more soulful you are, the more art you see, the more different people from different countries you meet, the better stuff you create. So I was literally working to save the money to see other countries or go to other shops and learn, live.

[Interviewer]

As much as possible.

[Mikhail Anderson]

And that was like my biggest goal. And then I feel like I started making decent amount of money when I moved from Florida to New York, actually, because New York was a turning point. When I moved to New York, the Instagram became as a thing, and people started using Instagram as posting their portfolio and building their clientele. And it was basically when it just started. But I remember a few times when I got reposted by big publics and I would get like 10,000 overnight just for tattoo. I did. And it was insane that I. I did something different. Somebody reposted it, and all of a sudden my email is full. I would get 10, 15 emails overnight and a day. And it was. It was like a ball rolling. You know, once you. Once you do something different, once you hit a point, then you all of a sudden have all these bookings. Because when I was here in Florida.

[Interviewer]

So you went, you went Moscow, Florida first. That was the first spot that you landed after.

[Mikhail Anderson]

I mean, I was in New York first. For me, when I first started traveling, I went to Europe a lot. I've been to Europe so much, to.

[Interviewer]

Different countries, of course, but not living.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Not. Not living. I've stayed in Germany for like three months, but I. I've had friends there. I've been to Spain, to Finland, Sweden, Norway, all kinds of stuff. But I came to New York first because for me it was like, oh, let's come to States and just buy supplies and see the shops. It wasn't. I didn't want to stay here, but I wanted to meet other artists and experience things and see how the shops are. Because in Russia, shops were way different than here. Like, here was actually some shops in Vegas or Miami. It was like a parlor where people already had iPads as portfolios, TVs. It was like a setup booth.

[Interviewer]

Oh, you said in Russia wasn't even a business.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, for. For each thing. And it was lines of people. But it was because first I think Miami Inc. Brought a lot of attention to a thing. And it was when it was on a national tv and then it Was distributed to the world. People saw it. I think that draw a lot of attention. And back when I was in Florida, Florida, actually, Miami was the number one city in the States or maybe in the world for the popularity of tattoo. Really? Yes.

[Interviewer]

I didn't know that. So probably because of the show, I'm assuming.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yes, of the show. And people will fly. From South America, we had people that would fly, and when they got tattooed, they're like, oh, my God. It's like in Miami, ink show. Like, so many people said that comment when I was tattooing them. When you create something and like, I watched the show, but I. I didn't watch everything because I didn't have time back then. And when you're tattooing, they're like, oh, it's like he's doing almost like they did on the show. And it was, like, so interesting to see that. But we had lines out of the door. Like, I would make. It was crazy because I would make, like thousand dollars in tips back then.

[Interviewer]

And you were at this point, this is not your own shop?

[Mikhail Anderson]

No, no, I was working for somebody. But you like, hustling all day and you work in the shops was open. Like, first we're open till certain time, and then they decided to even keep it open all night too. And you're like, slam with clients. You're like six, seven, ten tattoos a day. And you keep doing it. It was like tourists coming in, people from all over the place, which eventually oversaturated the market, but because people saw opportunity how it is, and then everybody started opening shops here.

[Interviewer]

There's money.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, yeah. And then it's. It's like, boom. Nobody has worked. Everybody's like, oh, what's going on? But, I mean, I feel like New York was a turning point for me when I. When I moved there. And when Instagram became a popular thing, especially for tattoo artists, it was a tool almost photographers and tattoo artists. It's like a wall where you put your work and people can scroll and see your work. Because website is one thing. If somebody types tattoo artist in New York, there's shit ton of websites that pay for ads. Google Ads, CEO, like, all that kind of stuff that pop up. And if you make a website, even you put the words there, you're not gonna come up on the first three, four, five pages. Nobody's gonna find you. But Instagram was like, you post and you can get there from just one posting, one work. And I remember when I've had. It was probably one work. Just made me, like, really a lot of clients overnight. I've started getting emails because I did something different than people are doing there. And it was. It was like a bull roll. And it started and I. I had to keep going with it, you know.

[Interviewer]

When did you open your own shop? So this was first class tattoo?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, the shop I. I opened in 2016, I worked.

[Interviewer]

This was on Canal Street.

[Mikhail Anderson]

So when I. When I first got the spot, it was a cheaper rent because the area was basically all Chinese stores and it was warehouses there. And I was looking for area that I can't afford myself. Even if nobody works for me, if I work, I can pay that rent a month and I still make money. So that's why I got the shop there. But then other people that own buildings, they saw opportunity. They're like, oh, the guy got a shop and there's people coming in and wealthy people coming in, coming in. They were like, instead of having their own store downstairs, they're like, I can rent this space to somebody else. And they started renting space. So it's almost became gentrified.

[Interviewer]

So you started the gentrification of Canal Street?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, pretty much. So now that area is so much different that people who live there, they know what I'm talking about. People who just moved or never been to that area, they probably wouldn't say, but I was one of the first businesses. They changed it. And also they built a hotel, which was a place. There was the first Chinese bank, which is a nine Orchard. But for first, I think five, six years, it was still under construction. It was all stuff there, but now it's an open hotel and it's a lot of celebrities that come there. And it's all like Black cars and SUVs all over, around because, like, I bump into Kylie Jenner, I bump into Jared Leto staying in a hotel. It's all celebrities staying there. And it's literally next door from us. Like, literally next.

[Interviewer]

That's so funny. So you, you. So you were the first shop. And then everything started to change and it.

[Mikhail Anderson]

It became like people would see opportunity. They would open a coffee shop here, coffee shop there. I think four coffee shops opened in the last 10 years, literally. And it like floods the people there and people start renting spaces and this.

[Interviewer]

Is all good for everyone.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Whole Orchard street, like a street. When you walk from my shop before 2020, it was all like shitty kind of small, dirty stores because the whole area before I was Jewish, like Hasidic Jews owned it. And then they saw opportunity. I've even had people like Hasidics would Come to me. And they're like, hey, do you want to open another store? We see how successful you are. They almost wanted to sell me a building there in Orchard Street. They came in there, like, we'll sell you a building for a million dollars. You can put whatever you want there. Because for them, they would have their own store and they would rent apartments. But it's a lot of work.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Mikhail Anderson]

But once if they rent it for somebody, you have to take care of space. You, like, take care of all the maintenance, and you attract also a lot more. And they don't have to do anything. They just make money. So they wanted, like, successful things. So last four or five years, all that stuff became like a completely different area that it was. And I. I feel like me and maybe that hotel kind of people saw and the rent is cheaper because lower side was always more expensive rent. I was looking for stuff there, and when I. When I went there, I was like, they started from 10 grand and up 10 years ago, it was literally like 10 grand for, like, small space. And it would go up.

[Interviewer]

How much is it now?

[Mikhail Anderson]

I don't know which. In area where I had the store, it was like five and up. It was much cheaper. But nobody wanted to rent there because there's nothing around. Because when I first signed a lease, I would go and look for, like, a coffee or tea. I go to a store. It was literally a sign was in Chinese. I go inside, and I was like, can I get this? And they're like, no, no, no, speak English. And I was like, okay. It was like everywhere like that, but now it's a completely different area. But people who live there, they would know what I'm talking about. So I think sometimes you make something successful and, like, people around, they see, okay, there's different class, different people coming there, and they're like, think maybe we can open businesses there too.

[Interviewer]

So just to paint a picture, people that are listening, like, again, we're talking a lot about, obviously, tattoos and. And the tattoo industry, but as an entrepreneur. So you. You spent how many years before you actually started to build your own thing? Like, how many years have you actually done the math? Like, how long you were, like, working, mastering your craft, putting in the reps before you actually built something successfully that was your own?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Almost 10 years.

[Interviewer]

Almost 10 years?

[Mikhail Anderson]

No, like, nine years, probably.

[Interviewer]

And when you did make that jump, because now I know a little bit more, because again, we were talking about some of the other things that you. You're. You're working on. You're actually Very risk adverse. So I think you're very smart, you do things very thoughtfully, which I think is probably why you're successful at it. But when you start something new, even like some of the stuff that you're working on right now, like some of the sort of the, the not side hustle, that's putting it lightly, but like some of the other projects that you're working on, you don't just, you don't just completely forget about the main thing and then start something new. You keep the main thing going and then you build something on the side. Kind of like. And I'm curious how you actually started like your first shop. You're working, you're saving money, you're learning, and then you start the shop, but you did it successfully. So was it starting the shop while you're still working or did you save up a certain amount of money or did you understand how long it was going to take you to be successful at building your own company? And like, that's how you sort of modeled out how much money you needed in the bank. How did you actually start as this, like, that's the first time you're.

[Mikhail Anderson]

I was entrepreneur. I was working. Yes.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Okay.

[Mikhail Anderson]

And I was building a shop.

[Interviewer]

That's smart.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Was. I was building, I started researching just how to name it, the brand and all this stuff. I mean, now there's more tools as far for AI to do all this stuff, but I was just doing that on my own and like thinking in my head what will be successful and doing a website. And at the same time, I was working literally like every day and I was looking for spaces. I would meet the brokers in the morning, look at spaces, see how much it cost. And it was, it was scary because I've had money in a bank. I saved up probably 100k before I signed a lease. And it's not much money to open a business. But for me, when you, when you work for somebody back then, it was a lot of money. And when I got the place, I didn't even have like, I had idea in mind. I put it kind of like I want black and gold as like design inside and stuff like that. Because the broker also when they rent a commercial lease and you never had a physical store or something like that, they're looking at you, oh, you're gonna rent, you're gonna fail. So they're like, oh, can you send us PDF of what the concept is going to be, what the colors are going to be? What, in terms of like, structure? Yeah, like a Whole business plan, even if it's just a small store. So I've had to do all of that. And I was tattooing at the same time. So it was. It was like that. And then when I first signed the lease, I've had people doing constructions, which was also bumps because I got a place, and I was like, what? I'm actually gonna do with it? Because I. I was like, you know, let me do a research and find somebody who can put a design together. I mean, I have a concept, but I actually need a designer, because if somebody wants to build, they want to see references and stuff like that. So I start calling people, and they're like, whoa, we're gonna charge, like, 40, $50,000 just to put a design together and rendering. And I was like, well, it's like half of the money I have. I was like, no. So I asked the company that signed me the place that gave me the lease. I was like, do you know any construction workers? So they gave me people. And I was like, okay, talk to them what I want. And I was trying to do, like, a cosmetic things, and price was okay. He was like, I'm gonna charge you whatever, 5,000 a week or, like, something without the materials for labor. And me, because I was working, and I wasn't there a whole time. When he started doing it, they took another two projects on the side, and they. They would just literally work there a little bit and go somewhere else and work there, which few times I took a break from work, and I went there, and I noticed nobody's there. So it turned into a whole issue, and I had to hire somebody else to do it because, like, those people, they said, oh, we're gonna finish in a month or two, whatever.

[Interviewer]

And they kept dragging it up.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, they keep pushing and just doing, like, basic stuff. That was taking forever because they took other two other jobs. So I had to control that. But I found other people that would do it. And then I started based on the concept. I started just looking online what I can buy in terms of furniture that would fit with the style. Because I was like, I cannot afford somebody to put me, like, a list of what to buy and stuff together for, like, 20, $30,000.

[Interviewer]

So you have to bring people over you. You start doing the tattoos in your own shop. Now you're making 100 of what they pay you, which is great, but I don't. What are the. What are the normal splits, like, when you work in a shop?

[Mikhail Anderson]

So back when I worked, it was 50, 50. Now it turned more of like people doing 40, 60, so the artist paid more.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Or like some shops in California, Florida, probably certain shops chair rental a month or certain shops are like 70, 30, 72 artists and 30 to the shop. But New York, because of the expensive cost is very hard. Because here, if I rent a space or I buy a space, it's way less money than in New York for like, for every, every single thing for expenses. But it is like a norm of like 60, 40 split for 60 to the artist, 40 to the shop. And I also had people in mind that I worked with before. One guy was an apprentice. Another was a friend of mine that came to States a few times and he said if I open a business, he'll come and join. So I've had some people that had like an interest to come, but it was mostly me just working. And I remember when I first started, a lot of things in terms of marketing was trial and error because like, you have a store, you. You did a sign outside, right? But how to bring the people in? Like, I put the Google Ads, I put the money into.

[Interviewer]

You have Instagram, you're posting it?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, I put in Instagram. And then certain things came as like, nobody was doing videos. And I. A customer reached out to me, which was a videographer, and she was like, I want to do a tattoo in exchange for a video. And I was like, sure. And I was one of the first, I think people, first tattoo artists that ever posted a video of like an actual video, not just a clip with a phone of like professional camera, video shot on a professional cameras to post of the whole tattoo shop in a process. And it brought a lot of attention because the person I worked for before, actually after I posted the video, he got pissed and he sent me a message because when I left, he was like, I'm happy for you. Like you did your own blah, blah, blah. But when I did a video and it got a lot of attention on social media, he sent me an angry message. He was like, oh, you like, blah, blah. Because nobody did it before. And I was the first person who ever.

[Interviewer]

Did he ever try and sue you for anything?

[Mikhail Anderson]

No, they actually stole an artist from me that was my apprentice, but it's okay.

[Interviewer]

What was sort of like the. The lowest moment or the one thing that was really something you had to go through as an entrepreneur that you hope nobody else would ever have to go through when you were building your shop?

[Mikhail Anderson]

I think the first worst moment when I actually had a few people working for me and the manager, that was probably really Like a best manager. But they started building a business outside of my business. But like what I did to somebody that I worked before, they had a much bigger business that I have. And when I left it didn't affect them. But for me, like if I hire three people and three people leave and there's only four people working for me, that was like a big thing because they took a whole client base and they did that. Yeah. And they. And went and opened a space and took the best manager out of three managers I had. They took a general manager and they took them to work for them because they offered her a commission or something more money that I was paying her. And it was really. That was like one of the first painful thing that happened to me. And then certain other things. Like I hate to bring it up, but I've had. It happened multiple times when people make relationships inside the business. Like I would hire. It was like multiple people working there. Like nine people. But then somebody is like start dating somebody and then potentially can turn into a drama which few times happened. That was like always a red flag for me. Always, always an issue. And then I feel like another thing. We don't see ourselves from the outside. Right. But if I would come here and I would. I would be wearing like a medical stuff, you would assume I'm a doctor. Right. It's like cold power of authority. So once you become somebody, if I'm a boss, people take me a different way. So I felt like when I've had a few celebrity clients and I got a little bit of popularity, some people come into the life just to try to use you. But you don't see it that way because you don't. Like I haven't had experience with that before. Like everybody that I consider that was. Wants to hang out or talk. Like personal things I consider as a friend. But people are trying to use just to gain something for their personal stuff, for their interest. So it's a lot of those. And I feel like my, my last marriage was the same too because the. I mean it's sad to say but the person came into the life when was working for somebody and like I built. Build the person up and she learned so much from me and is doing same things. That's what I taught you heard like that's what I see through all the posts. Even if after we've broken up and all that stuff.

[Interviewer]

I'm sorry.

[Mikhail Anderson]

It's okay. But it's like I've never experienced that. And you, I guess you learn the hard way with like Walking with somebody that presents themselves as a different person, they. But they just try to use you in their advantage just to kind of.

[Interviewer]

I think it happens whenever you start to, like, build a little bit of fame or notoriety or you hang out with cool people. It's weird. It's a weird feeling. I mean, it's a very, like, listen, it usually means that you're very fortunate and that you've, you know, you've built a great. You've built something that people actually admire because if not, they wouldn't try and use you. I notice it sometimes with the podcast too, because I, I get to interview some very cool people.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you just have to, you know, you just have to make sure that friendships are, like, honest and they're actually friends and. Yeah, but I, I totally understand where you're coming from.

[Mikhail Anderson]

No, but you. I think you need to be like, I've had ex. Like, I didn't have experience with it, but now I have and I look at things.

[Interviewer]

Nobody has experience with that before the first time they have it.

[Mikhail Anderson]

It.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, like, nobody has the experience of somebody using them before it happens the first time.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Interviewer]

Now fast forward to. To sort of where you're at now. What are you doing to reinvent yourself now? Like, what are you excited about? What are you working on? What are you sort of outside of just running the actual shop, which is still obviously killing it. But how do you keep reinventing so that you stay relevant, you stay new, you stay exciting?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Well, at the moment, I'm basically, I try to build a new business because I feel like. And it's been always on my mind too, when I've. I've heard some people speak, they say don't put all eggs in one basket and stuff like that. I think entrepreneurship as a thing, it comes to, like, this is the only country, I think, in the world where you can be financially free and you can build that as your future. Like, you can make enough money that you can buy real estate or invest money somewhere where the money is going to eventually be working for you. And that's.

[Interviewer]

That's building true wealth.

[Mikhail Anderson]

That's the ultimate goal. And people that don't understand it, they probably working for somebody or, I mean, you can work for somebody. But I think in the future, what, what changed my mind when I said before about the surgery and stuff, when you don't work, you need something that will work for you because everything costs money. Everything is expensive anywhere you go. Like now in New York, you go outside, 100 bucks is gone. Or like 300.

[Interviewer]

Miami is not much better either. Yeah, yeah.

[Mikhail Anderson]

And if you just exchange in your hours into the money. But what if you cannot? What if something happens? If you get sick or you're disabled, you got in a car accident, which happened to like, I hear stories like that because I have a lot of clients and clients are like, hey, I just got in a car accident. I cannot hear like my. I'm paralyzed or something else. But if you're just working a job at a computer, writing something or doing something, exchanging your hours for the money, what if you cannot do that tomorrow? I think this is like, everybody should learn and figure out how to make money outside of their job and figure out where they can invest or what they can do when the money is working for them. And I've been, even before I opened a business, I've been, I've had an idea that don't put eggs in one basket. You need to have different sources of income. And I have a little source of like a real estate and stuff like that, where I put the money and it's passive income. I don't put much unless something happens. If a major thing happens, like the roof slid off of a house or something else, like you need to put a lot of money into it.

[Interviewer]

But you actually, you own real, like you've purchased real estate, you get somebody to manage it for you or.

[Mikhail Anderson]

No, I do myself, but. But it's better to get somebody managed. Like the ultimate goal, to automate things that work for you, that you don't have to work. And that's like. I think a lot of people should think that way. And the same with like the industry. If something is hot, if you made something successful, you cannot just be stuck with it. Because in five years or four years, the economy can change, people's mind can change. Everything is so dynamic that when I said in the beginning, I said when I started marketing, there was no social media and we started marketing as like doing a research, sending mail or putting, putting things as billboard and putting things on a billboard. That's what we learned. But now it's completely different, Completely different animal. And I think growing yourself in different directions helps with the business, helps with being diverse. Because sometimes like you literally have to pivot. Like companies think about company like Nokia, it was a huge company with the phones. But why they don't make phones anymore? Where are the phones? Because iPhone took over. Because they didn't want to adopt and create something different. Because maybe it was too much structure in a company and they couldn't agree or too slow.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Or move too slow, whatever. But billion dollars companies, just like sometimes they vanish.

[Interviewer]

Blockbuster.

[Mikhail Anderson]

There's so many things, I mean, you can bring up so many things like that, but you have to pivot. And if you made certain amount of money, you need not to put eggs in one basket because if you, if you sleep and fall, those, those eggs are all gonna break. You need to put money in different things that eventually those things will work for you. I think that this is the only country that allows you to do. Because where I'm from, a lot of things controlled by the government, a lot of things. Like if I go and open a business in Russia, I mean, I can be an entrepreneur to a certain point. Unless I hit a, unless I make like two, three million dollars and then the government gets involved.

[Interviewer]

That's not even by entrepreneurships. It's not even a lot of money. I mean, like, like in, in, in the U.S. i mean, like, yeah, you.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Cannot buy, it's like a studio apartment in New York City as a million dollars. It's, it's, it's insane. So, but in Europe or all other countries, because they're small and they're so controlled by the government, like, if you make that money, it's okay, but if you make more, the government is going to come and be like, hey, you work for us now, especially Russia. Like, Russia is like that. If you, if you open a business and a business is popping, you're making a lot of money. At a certain point, the government is going to be like, hey, you cannot own this business. You're going to work for us. Because for them, if you gain so much popularity or something else, you can overthrow the government to have some influence on people. And they cannot allow that.

[Interviewer]

This is what, this is what happened with, with Jack Ma and, and, and like the, like the CCP or like the People's Republic of China. Right? Like, that's like he was billionaire and he was too outspoken and they didn't like that. And then he disappeared for a little while and then he came back and all of a sudden he's not so outspoken anymore. So I get it. Like, I think that, I also think that, you know, we have to be very, like, we're so, we're so blessed to have the opportunity that we have in, in the US and like the fact that you can really just do whatever you want to any significant degree as long as it's legal. You can build whatever you want. You can make any decision you want. You can, you can create businesses that have never existed before. You can quit your job, you can do whatever.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Interviewer]

And it's just, it's like, it really is a blessing, I think that people sometimes forget how the rest of the world works.

[Mikhail Anderson]

But yeah, I've been. So I've had some investments in production equipment and stuff like that. And it was basically.

[Interviewer]

So you're into photography as well?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, I, I started doing photos because I've had a base of photography in a college when I studied and then I took the different path. But then I think 2020, when we're closed for I think it was four months or five months were closed. I started kind of watching YouTube videos because everything became so content related, right? So I was like, let me watch some YouTube of how to make videos, how to make some content. Because before I would hire people and I paid people a lot of money to do some stuff. Stuff. So it was like a thousand dollars for a video, for one small video. And then I was like, what if I buy a camera and just learn some stuff and start doing it myself? Just for shop related. And there's more. As I got into it more I dove in, into learning about it and like I feel like if you want to become good, you have to get inside the industry. Like, yeah, you cannot just get a small camera and be like, okay, you're good. But I always, I always raise the bar. I always compare myself and I see somebody who's doing it better. I was like, okay, how did they actually did it? So I started watching all this, watching YouTube videos about videography and content creation and even like I don't want to mention, but I did a, I did a course for my ex, which was initial. I wanted to make a course into tattooing and running a business as a tattoo shop shop, which was idea in 2020, but I did as a trial something for somebody else just as a course and it worked really well and we posted it online and she was making sales like a couple hundred bucks a month just out of like a small short course. But it was for me like a learning path. And then I kind of dove more into it because everything is more content, creative creation. And then you post on social media and you're like buying all this equipment and doing all this stuff. So eventually I was like, oh, how do I actually. I want to have something so cinematic. I was like, how do I actually get that? So I purchased like an expensive camera and kind of got more and more interest into it within the last five years.

[Interviewer]

And now you have one of the like now you have a massive collection of lenses too. Yeah, you're putting it very lightly when you say you do it like most people. Most people, when they say they go into it, they buy a couple cameras, they learn how to shoot, they learn lighting and learn aperture, they learn all the different things that are important for it. But you have now a collection of vintage lenses. So.

[Mikhail Anderson]

But it's for me it like it makes me money now because the initial idea was I started researching and you, you look at a movies and you're like, oh, how this is actually shot. And you, you start reading and figuring things out. So when I was doing some rentals, I was trying to get stuff that nobody has, but it actually very valuable. And I think in the last few years people are looking for something different because when a camera started developing, it was better sensor, better quality, but everything became the same. So when you look for the same, when there is no imperfections and stuff like that, that it just looks the same. And then people are like, let's actually go back to 50s or 60s and take something from there and shoot on that and then see that and see how it looks. It's so popular because on one side is AI, which makes everything so plastic and so rendered. On the other side people took lenses from 50s, 60s, 70s, rehoused them in a new housing because the other housing wouldn't hold it. And they shoot movies on it. Like a lot of movies in the last two years are shot on film. Why? Because the film, it just looks really good. And then the technology actually when we shot on film in 90s, there was no scanners that we have now. So when you shoot on film, you scan it after. But you can scan 16 millimeter film, which is a half of the 35 millimeter into a 4K which before couldn't. And then it's much better quality than the camera like this. I mean it looks much better. And then they shoot movies with that because film itself looks better, it reacts different on a light. So and you know like once I dove into something, you start researching, you start seeing, okay, this looks good. But how it was actually made. And you see that a lot of movies and commercials right now, they shot on film and they put in big budgets because film cost more. But it just looks different. It looks good.

[Interviewer]

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[Mikhail Anderson]

So I can start from far away. When I was in college, it was still film photography. And then I feel like after first year, when I was in second year in college, the first digital cameras were introduced and people switched to it. Because on film, you have to think so much. It was also expensive. But you need to know so much just to shoot something decent, which, like, you can show a lot of film, but to process and all that stuff is gonna look like if you don't know the exposure, the rules, the laws, how the light works on digital. When we got the digital cameras. When I first got a digital camera, I would shoot everything. Like, I would. Whatever I see. I'm like, oh, let's take picture of this. Let's take picture. You go on vacation, you shoot everything. The same with the iPhones, but.

[Interviewer]

But you look at my camera roll, it's garbage. There's so much weight.

[Mikhail Anderson]

But then I don't look at those. Like, I don't. I'm not gonna scroll through all of this and find something and be like, wow, this is amazing. Once I started diving deeper in photography in 2020, once I got a first film camera in 2022, I start shooting less, but I started thinking more. And it was almost like I would go somewhere, but I would shoot one roll. And it's already only like, 36 shots. But each single shot is meaningful. Like, I would go have the scans put on my phone, and it brings the memories back because it was probably the best, best one memory out of the day that I've shot or I've seen somebody, or I've been to this amazing sunset and I've shot it, and it's just one photo instead of if I would go and I've been there, and I would shoot 200 photos on. On my digital camera, and I have to scroll through and be like, okay, one is amazing. And then once you switch to that, once you go back to digital, which I try to shoot more digital right now, if I do stuff, but I start thinking about it more, I'm not gonna shoot, like, 200 from each around the subject. I know this looks good because if I would have film, I'm not gonna shoot 10. 10 shots of just of this. I'm gonna show one, and I'm gonna make sure it's good.

[Interviewer]

Good.

[Mikhail Anderson]

I'm gonna make sure the emotions are good. I'm gonna make sure it's valuable.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. It's almost like memories become disposable to a degree because we don't pay attention to when we're actually capturing them.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah. So I, I think it switched my perspective too with, because with the film each row is like 20 bucks, $23 to buy and it's only 36 shots. And to process the row it's about $20 to process and scanner shots like $40 for only 36 shots. It, I mean it's, it's money. But you know, people should film because it looks different and some people would even say it looks amazing and but once you switch to that, to that mentality, you go back to digital and digital could be even better than the film. But once you start thinking about it because you turn that in your brain because you have all that card space and you're like, okay, I can shoot every single thing. I can pick the best photo. But once you have a ousand photos or 2000 photos for you to go scroll through, especially everybody the more right now everybody's so busy with everything. Like it's more and much more busier world than it was even 10 years ago. And I feel like for me because I'm so busy with business related stuff, something else related stuff, I want to have something valuable as a memory. And I like, I bought a Leica camera like in 2022 and I was like, okay, if I shoot, I'm gonna shoot the best memories. And I've actually started shooting and printing stuff and put it in my walls. People will come to like, oh my God, this looks amazing because it also, it scanned really well and then looks more natural than a digital because the digital has so much more in a sensor like I've shot with the studio lights and stuff like that. And I print it. It still looks very plastic but once you print from a film, from an actual negative, it looks really, really good. It looks like magazine quality. And I've had pictures like this printed on my walls in my apartment which I, I look and I was like sometimes few years pass and I'm like, damn, I did that. Wow, it's, it's amazing. I mean but I, I do think it switched my perspective of and I think it should apply to everything. I mean like everything should be thoughtful, even in tattoos. My friend said a while ago when I was, when I first opened a shop, I was taking a lot of clients and he said just think about this. Once you do work, each work in the end should be photographed and be worth to post on your wall. That's what he said. He said to me, don't just do work to have a quality work work. Try to do work. Aim for better and I actually, I had a book that I, I just, I just bought. Somebody said, like, what? Look at this book. And it's photography. I don't like that style. But it said in the beginning of the book, aim for the moon and you'll end among amongst the stars. So it was like almost try to strive to create something better. Even if it's a small symbol, but you can think, okay, what if I do it to be put on the wall?

[Interviewer]

Everything you do better. Do it to be put on the wall. Do it so that you can. Yeah, don't just create to create. Create with, like, purpose.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah. And I think that changed my perspective with, with work in general. I think, like, you can aim for better and, and planning as well. Like people say, when you live with no plan for the business for yourself, like, you can have a plan. Doesn't mean that it's going to end up to be that way. But even if you decide to go for a mile, if you even go for 20 or run for like 5 miles, even if you run first time as 20, you already ran something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's better than nothing.

[Mikhail Anderson]

But if, if you don't have that plan, it's better then you don't have a plan. You can wake up and you don't have anything in mind where you want to be, and you're like, just stuck floating around. I guess.

[Interviewer]

Do you feel like. Well, I was gonna ask, like I was gonna ask, what are the lessons from photography that have impacted your, your tattooing, but I guess that's the answer. It's like, be purposeful.

[Mikhail Anderson]

I think also photography itself and tattooing is seeing the light is very important to see the light, see the shape, see the composition, complementary colors, how colors work in nature. Because it applies for tattooing. Because certain stuff, I mean, unless it's a traditional tattoo where it's like three colors used, the black and white, it's one thing. But once you do something, color realism, you need to know color theory. And people always say, and I always say, once you do shadows, you mix the tone with opposite on the color wheel tone to create shadows like that. It looks more natural. It looks. It's sometimes scary to mix orange with a purple, but it, it neutralizes, it creates the gray. And the same for everything. For photography too. Like, if I would set lights, if I would set complementary colors, how we say in a lot of movies, it looks really good because it's orange, teal, it's two colors complementary. It's colors opposite. On the car wheel, when we put the background as a teal color. And your skin can be pushed a little bit to be more orange or too orange. It looks very complex. It looks pleasing to the eye. So there's, there's laws with that. So I think a lot of things like that it applies and the same for the lighting. Like if you take the Renaissance painting, how they call it Rembrandt lighting or Hollywood lighting, they call it right when there's a triangle on the shadow side and the light is from this angle that goes to you. And they shoot usually from. From a shadow side, but there's always like a triangle. They call it Hollywood lighting. But look at Caravaggio's paintings. That's how he would set up the lights to paint all these scenes. Like everything is like, comes from somewhere. Everything has like a whole path of all those things, you know.

[Interviewer]

Do you feel like photography has made you a better tattoo artist and vice versa?

[Mikhail Anderson]

I think so, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you think like other artists should? I guess the question is, if you're a creative or an artist, does it make sense for you to expand into different mediums to. To learn new things and new skills?

[Mikhail Anderson]

I think it's hard to sit on how they say don't sit on few chairs. At the same time, I think it's better to focus on one thing and try to make everything to be better at it. So if you do tattoos, is good to make art, paint on a side, go to art seminars. But photography, right now it applies to tattooing because first we take photos of our tattoos, because before we didn't. Now we have to take a good photo of tattoo. And to take a good photo, you need to understand the light. You need to understand how to set up the light because you want to present that product. And then even more to the advance with all these reels, you need to be a content creator to the point that you need to be able to make the video or understand what people would watch in terms of what kind of video they watch. So it's a lot of things right now involved. But I, I think it is hard to be maybe a really good photographer and good tattoo artist at the same time. Because I feel like you need to constantly do the same thing. You need to put that 10,000 hours that you need to put the consistent work. Because I do shoot photos in the studio and I shoot like once a month. Somebody asks me, but I feel like if I would just shoot a photos at a studio every day, I would be so good at it. I would. I like just need to hit that point of just the hours and that experience, that little things like you see, once you work more, you see, okay, like I can ask to turn the head this way. I can put the light that way. It's. It comes more subconsciously when you're in a stressful environment. I think, whatever, we put it more like in prints in our brain, that we do it with hands without thinking about it. But once we get thrown in, in that environment, in a stressful environment, if we don't have that enough of like learning that thing, we're gonna it up, we're gonna, we're gonna mess it up. The same with like sports too. Like, I've done jiu jitsu for a while and I think once they make you do one movement constantly, just one move or one escape for like a whole class or like 30 minutes, and you come back after a week and you have to do again or they, they have to review how you learn. Because it has to be a muscle memory in the things, the every. Everything. I think even writing books and doing anything is like a muscle memory. You just have to build it up to the point when you know the basics, you know the laws, and then you can create something yourself.

[Interviewer]

I love that. And also, like once, once you know the bit. There's a difference between learning something so that it helps you with your other parts of your work versus learning something to be a master at it. Like, for example, you can learn photography, you can learn how to paint, you can learn all these different art, other sort of artistic mediums, and it can help you as a tattoo artist. But it doesn't mean that you have to become.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

The best at that thing. You're not going to be, I don't know, I don't know the names of big, big photographers. I'm sure you do, but you don't have to be that person who's like, who does this for a living. Do you think that technology is good or bad for art?

[Mikhail Anderson]

I feel like technology is good for art because if you, if you take historically people, they were really good artists. They were not recognized or some people would literally paint amazing things or photograph amazing things. Like a Vivian Meyer took photos and then when she passed, somebody discovered all these photos in the apartment. She became famous.

[Interviewer]

But that's many artists, by the way.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, and it's many artists back then. And I feel like now with the technology and just becoming viral or being able to post something and people can see in other parts of the world, that is amazing. I feel like before was like a label to an artist that artists are alcoholics. Artists are always broke, they always starving. It's not like a good path. The parents will would take it that way. Hey, like you need a real job, you need to be a lawyer, doctor, something else to make the money. But because we have so much tools that are free to be exposed to big audience, we can hit that big audience painting something and we can sell prints, we can make art gallery, we can go to other country and make an art show where, where before, when there was no technology, people even would know, like it was only if it was spoken or newspapers or people. If people start talking about something, there was people that got known. But there's so many artists back in the day that just painted in their house and whatever, they died, nobody, they died alcoholics, they died broke and nobody knew. And then somebody discovered and they're like, holy. And then their stuff sold for billions of dollars after they're dead. Yeah, but it would be beneficial if those people wouldn't have to live like that, which maybe, I don't know. There's always like, you know, a fight of your flesh and your soul. Like the artist has to be spiritual in a sense to be able to create something bigger. So I think maybe being in pain or struggling push people to create something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I was curious if you think that like people become less proficient at their craft if they're, if life's too good.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Because even nowadays, like you think about martial arts people like Conor McGregor, once he got what he wanted or he got the money, he doesn't train as hard, he cannot fight anymore to a top level. But if you take back in the day when there was no social media and you cannot get that fame like Mike Tyson or somebody else, when there was no money that you can make right now based on social media, or like Julio Chavez when he had like 200, whatever fights, now it's like two, three fights. And then if your character, if you're good, you can become so famous that sponsors will pay you so much money that people never made before. So that's beneficial of technology, but it also ruins probably the passion because once you have that money, your lifestyle changes, your patterns change, you do other things. And maybe you want to do other things because like, like if you just have to hustle just to pay the bills, even if you're amazing at what you do, it's like one thing, but once you have an access to all of this, then you can do so much more, you can learn something else.

[Interviewer]

And I mean personally, have you ever lost Your edge because of success?

[Mikhail Anderson]

No, I never did. But I, I also don't know what it is to like, if I whatever make like $20 million, I don't know what it is to, to feel that way. I mean I was working for somebody and barely paying bills. And then I, I made decent amount of money that I had some real estate purchased. I bought a house for my parents, like stuff like that. But it's, it's all, it was like a hard work for a long period of time that I feel like I deserve.

[Interviewer]

It was never actually. Never work again. Money. It was never a few like money. One check that. Yeah.

[Mikhail Anderson]

If I would even have an opportunity like that. That's, that's different. I don't know how I would feel or the person I would be. But I, I do know that when people get into that position, their surroundings change. The people, how they take them, like it change. Everything changes around them. So I don't know.

[Interviewer]

Did your, did your parents ever come to terms with what you do for a living?

[Mikhail Anderson]

My parents hated at first. My parents were making fun of it and when I first started tattooing, I was still doing graphic design on the side. I was building websites. I worked for some companies. I actually did a website for Formula one racer. Like I've had really good clients that would pay me a lot of money, but my parents were like, oh, you're just doing this just as a hobby. You should get a real job. You should maybe get another degree. And my, Until I moved to New York and until I made the money that I, I bought a house for my parents, it was like in 2015, I think once I did that and once I started like sending money to support my mom or my dad, they were like, hey, you have a good opportunity. You live in states. It's good, good education. You should, maybe the money you make, you should invest in like on the free time, just get another degree. That's what they, they would tell me.

[Interviewer]

Like, so they still can't get out of their, the way that they look at the world because even if you're making money, they're still thinking no, but.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Now, now they don't because like after I bought a place for myself and all other stuff, I own the business. But for a long time even I was making decent amount of money, they still were like, hey, why don't you get a stable job and some. Something that you can rely on for the rest of your life and then retire?

[Interviewer]

I mean I never threw, that never threw you off them not sort of.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Being okay, it did throw me off for sure. But I, I don't know, I always, I feel like when I was still in a high school, I wanted to live on my own because I've had a big family and it was like a lot of people in a household. And I've always tried to hang out people that are successful. I always hang out with people that are older. I've had people that own businesses, their friends. And I was in, in like 18s or 20s and people will take me on a trips and people who own construction companies or something else and made like, I don't know, million dollars a year back then and like would consider me a friend because I knew certain things that they didn't have anybody around. Like I knew like how to do web development, how to do graphic design and certain things about marketing. So they were interested in that skill because they didn't have it. So I was helping them to do those things. But they wanted to hang out with me just for like, maybe like a helpful exchange. But I've been around those people and seen different type, like different success from early age because my both parents, like my dad worked as a professor at a university. He worked as a teacher and then worked as a professor at the university teaching technology and math for all his life for like 50 years until he was pushed to retire. But he never did stuff for himself. He just worked for a check and got a check and then, and then that's it. And then get pushed out. And then my mom, because there was three kids that she had, she couldn't work for a certain time and she had a really good job before my younger sister was born. But when my younger sister was born, she was like, oh, I have three kids, I don't have any time. So she had to quit the job. And when she tried to go back in 2000s to get a job back, it was a completely different world. Everybody was already computers. It was everything in a system automated. And she worked as an accountant before for a huge government thing for the spaceship company. And then once in 2000, she tried to go back there like, sorry, we cannot take you. Even you have experience with working this. They're like, you have to go and get at least four or five years of education to catch up, to catch up and then you can go back. And she was like, holy four or five years, I have to pay for education. So she never did. She did a little bit of like half a year, a year and then worked jobs here and there. But it's still a mentality I think.

[Interviewer]

If you're gonna just walk through. So I want the audience to sort of. They've learned a lot, but I want them to learn sort of say a lesson or a failure that you've experienced that you wouldn't wish anybody else would ever have to go through. But it was a very valuable lesson for you. What would that, what would that moment be? And it can be. It doesn't have to be in business, it can be, but something that you think you learned quite a bit from that you think somebody else hopefully will never have to experience firsthand.

[Mikhail Anderson]

I think in life everything should be balanced, like sometimes. And in me personally, I have a lot of issues with that. I would basically throw myself into work and I just overwork myself. Like I. I would get into something and I know that I could do more. So I could basically go and work seven days a week. But it does huge impact on the mental health. I think everything should be balanced. Why. Why start doing photography? Because I needed something to take my mind off. And once your mind is into a business, if you want a business to succeed, you just put all your resources, all your energy into it. And there is a negative impact into your body from that which you might not feel in the beginning, but in a certain period of time, it's going to hit you. And it can hit really hard. And some people that did jobs for many years, sometimes they just fall sick and then they cannot work anymore or something else. So I think that's the biggest lesson I've learned from owning a business. I think you need to balance things. And sometimes going less is going more in the long term. Sometimes, like pushing, pushing more or going forward more could end up that you wouldn't be able to do that anymore. And I think balancing your life, if you have a family or if you have in a hobby, it's good to take your mind off if you're trying to do a business. I think some days you just have to be completely off the phone. You like my why? I started doing photo, like street photography that I really enjoy. I would take a camera, I just go outside, I'm not looking on the phone, I'm not doing anything. I'm like, okay, for three, four hours, I'm just gonna walk around and find something interesting and take photos. Because I was working so much first few years, then I started getting sick a lot.

[Interviewer]

And then you noticed your body shutting down?

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah. And I was like, when it first started happening, I was like, okay, I just go take antibiotics because I was like getting sick with, like, a flu or cold, like, consistently. But I was putting so much work because I was like, oh, I'm here, but I can do even more. So you're like, I'm the only me I have this time. But it also, I think it should be that every. Everybody needs to learn that you can hire people to do the jobs that they can do, but you. You pay them less money because your time is more valuable for the money that you make. So you don't have to clean your house when you can hire somebody for $10 an hour to clean your house. Because if you clean your house, unless you're enjoying it, if you clean your house, you're gonna take half a day to do it, but at the same time, you can do something more valuable or spend time with your family. And I think things in your life should be very balanced that way. I think if you just throw yourself into something and even if it's going well, it can end up, like, hurting yourself or doing something. Something bad.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Because you. You kind of just get distracted by, like, the short term wins.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yes. And I. I think sometimes, like, little steps is even better steps forward, because in a. In a long term, it's going to be better. But I. I also think, like, if. If there's opportunities and you see opportunities, it's better to take them because you, like, you can regret them later. And somebody told me a long time ago, I mean, if you don't knock on the door. I've had a guy when I met, I was like, in my 20s, and he was very successful. He did construction. And he told me it was a long time ago, but it stuck to me. He said that he was trying to do business, and he was from poor family, he was trying to make a lot of money and be rich. And he tried many things. And he said, it's better to ask because, like, if you have ideas, it's better to try and to ask people and to learn from people. Because if you're afraid, like, you're just gonna be thinking about it, that you never tried, but if you try, even if you fail, you fail. But some. Sometimes you. You try and you succeed. And he was like, when he finished his university, he said, I was just knocking on everybody's door because I want to be successful. He was like, I got into this. I was selling elevators. It's failed. I was doing this, it failed. I was doing this. It failed. And then he did construction company got a lot of connections, and he was doing a lot of money. He was making millions. Of dollars off that. But he said, I failed so many times. I had debt, I had people there pissed off, I had this and this. But you learn from your mistakes. And I, I think like in my life a lot of stuff was like learning here and there from different people. They've been around and I think it since like an early age I kind of seen how these people be because of what they're successful, the patterns and all other stuff. But I also, I also think you can hire people to do other things for you and like, for people don't spread themselves in like you, you can if you want to do marketing research, if you want to do something else, you can hire people, outsource them from others.

[Interviewer]

You can learn a little bit. Yeah, so you can learn a little bit, fail. But also at the same time, you have to balance that two things can be true at the same time. It's good for you to learn and fail at the same time. It's also good for you to delegate responsibilities. You don't do everything yourself. So it's a balance. I think that also, I think that also, like for entrepreneurs it's important to, to try and learn. And if you do fail, at least you've learned a little bit so that you can now when you hire people to help you make a better hiring.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Decision, you see what's good.

[Interviewer]

You see what's good. Yeah.

[Mikhail Anderson]

And I, I also read a thing. When you hire in somebody to do the job, it's better to write the steps, exact steps they have to do to make that happen, to make the product or to make the job. Because if you say, hey, create me a website or like, hey, write this, write this article that I need to post on a blog. But if you put the exact steps, if you put, I want to write this blog, but for me, if I would do it, I would go and do a research on Internet based on this topic and based on another, I would put every single step and they would do a good job that you would do. But if you just write a task without explaining it or without the steps to, to make, to create that task, then it wouldn't be valuable or it wouldn't apply to your business because you see it a different way. But you cannot express yourself, you cannot explain how you want it to be. And sometimes you just throw it out there as a task and you hire somebody and they do a shitty job and you're like, I paid this person money, but I have to redo it and do it myself. Which like I learned sometimes is Better for me to do it, but it also. I don't have much time, but it's. You have to find that balance and try to explain it better for people.

[Interviewer]

That communication is huge. Yeah.

[Mikhail Anderson]

That are. They're doing it.

[Interviewer]

What would be the most important thing that you've had to unlearn?

[Mikhail Anderson]

I try not to attach myself to things. It's. It's like a hard thing, but we get attached to people, to habits, to something else. I try not to.

[Interviewer]

I think that's human nature, to be honest.

[Mikhail Anderson]

Yeah, I try. I try not to attach to things because, like, pets will die and, you know, we love them so much. But it's. It's like a thing. But like, I think switching up, like you, you literally, like, if you have the same pattern of, Of. Of something, I think switching things up is, Is a good thing. Like, you have to kind of unlearn to fallen into the same pattern of life because you would learn and get comfortable somewhere. Like, I have friends that I. I just see it maybe because my brain works differently, but I see people that are like, they try things, they find what works for them, like even food. Like, they would find a restaurant and it would go there because they eat, the service is good. It makes them feel good. But they're like fall into this pattern that they're scared to try something else.

[Interviewer]

Because that goes with life, with people, with relationships, with press, everything. Yes, agreed.

[Mikhail Anderson]

And then they're. They're like, there. Everything is. Well, everything is. Is good for them. They feel comfortable, but they're just going with the flow, I guess. And if in. In my, like, in my experience, I just seen it because I've been to different countries, people like that, when something happens, it could happen as like an accident or they can get sick or something else. Like somebody dies, it throws them off.

[Interviewer]

They're not resilient.

[Mikhail Anderson]

But yeah, they cannot adjust to that situation and they end up not, not well or they end up going to a therapy or something else for a long time or something happened. They like get on drugs or whatever because they don't. They don't know how to deal with it. But once you, once you unlearn that, once you just try to like, detach. Yeah, you detach. Detach from things, but you kind of. You can't adopt to anywhere or to anything. I think it's a good, It's a good thing. It's a good skill, especially for me. Like, I, I come from a country where I feel more comfortable than being here. Like, I still, for I've been here 15 years. I still feel like if I go back there, I feel more comfortable. Like I know the culture, I understand the people, I know how the food, I know how the system works. I know how everything works. And I have less stress as like the mental stress that is. Is in my head than being here. Because here I feel like I don't have any family. And I. I'm always attacked that I have to pay the bills. I'm like, something can happen or this and this and this and 10 million things. But I think it changed me as a person and the same with the business. Like maybe it's comfortable for me to go and work for somebody because if I own my own business, I have to pay rent, which is way more than I. If I'm working for somebody or way more than I'm paying for my apartment. And then I need. I have responsibilities of having employees that I have to pay and I have to provide. The people who work for me work and find the work for them. So it is more comfortable for me to go for a company and have stable money that I know, maybe build my name and work there. But once I've thrown myself into uncomfortable into this crazy waterfall and I kind of readjust and learn how to swim, I kind of feel less scary with other people. Like I go into something that is unknown and I don't feel scared or I go meet somebody or I speak with somebody who, who can be, I don't know, a billionaire. And I mean I feel comfortable speaking with them because it changed me as a person. And I think I approach. I approach things different way. And I had that experience in me, which I think is a good thing.

[Interviewer]

If people want to connect with you. If people actually want to go to the shop, where should they go? So socials everywhere you want to send them.

[Mikhail Anderson]

So shop is called First Class tattoos. It's on 52 Canal street in Manhattan. They can go. Follow us. First Class NYC on Instagram. We also have a website where we have some works. And my personal Instagram is Mikhail Anderson with the two S's. You can see it's like tattoos all over my page. So you can.

[Interviewer]

I'll put everything in the show notes too so people can just click through.

[Mikhail Anderson]

But sounds good.

[Interviewer]

Then the last thing that I always like to ask. So you've given over like a lot of different bits of wisdom but say out of your life, you can only pass on one lesson to your kids. It's the most important lesson. What would that lesson be and why?

[Mikhail Anderson]

I think the biggest thing is not to like, take care of your health from the early age. I think that's probably the biggest lesson I want the kids or everybody to learn. Yeah. And I think that teaching that the kids because the school or anything else, it doesn't teach the kids that. But I, I think if you want your kids to live in the world, I think teaching them their finances and the money is a big thing. But I, I think the most important thing is health because once you don't have health, every, like, it becomes the, the main problem for anybody. Like, that's the main focus. You cannot enjoy your life. You cannot do many things that you could have done. So I think taking care of eating healthy, exercising, taking care for yourself, for your mental health and all that stuff, I think is the, in my opinion is the most important advice.