Rebecca Zung - USA Today Bestselling Author & U.S. News Best Lawyer | The Top 1% Attorney Who Cracked the Code on Beating Narcissists

Summary

Podcast Summary

Overview

Episode Title: Rebecca Zung - USA Today Bestselling Author & U.S. News Best Lawyer | The Top 1% Attorney Who Cracked the Code on Beating Narcissists
Podcast: Success Story with Scott D. Clary
Date: April 23, 2026
Guest: Rebecca Zung, top 1% attorney, negotiation expert, USA Today bestselling author
Main Theme:
Scott D. Clary interviews Rebecca Zung to explore how she became one of the leading authorities on negotiating with narcissists in both personal and professional contexts. The episode covers her personal journey, the psychology behind narcissism, practical negotiation strategies, and how these apply beyond relationships to business and organizational culture.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Rebecca Zung’s Personal Inflection Points (02:27 – 07:05)

• Early struggles: Rebecca shares formative events—dropping out of college, marrying young, raising three children by age 22, and a difficult divorce—that left her in survival mode.
• Career rebuilding: She finished college, became a teacher, and then pursued law school at night while supporting her children, eventually becoming a leading family law attorney in Naples, Florida.
• Exposure to high-conflict personalities: Her law practice, especially high net worth divorces, thrust her into frequent negotiations with narcissists.

Notable quote:
"Survival was the theme for much of my early life. Now, I'm more about abundance. That shift only came after lots of personal development."
—Rebecca Zung (03:38)

2. Moving Beyond Survival—Personal Growth & Victim Mindset (07:05 – 13:30)

• From fear to abundance: Despite professional success, Rebecca felt trapped by stress and the pressure to perform. She references “hustling for your worthiness” (Brené Brown).
• Personal awakening: A painful business partnership with a covert narcissist led to an epiphany, realizing she was giving her power away (“The person who walked up that mountain was not the person who walked down that mountain.” (09:54)).
• New direction: She wrote Negotiate Like You M.A.T.T.E.R., launched a YouTube channel on narcissism, and fully embraced her expertise.

Notable quote:
"Every moment I give this person my power, I'm in victim mode and not in creation mode."
—Rebecca Zung (09:54)

3. Understanding Narcissism & Childhood Roots (16:26 – 25:38)

• Programming and patterns: Early childhood experiences form neuronal patterns, which shape beliefs about self-worth.
• Defining narcissism:
  • Narcissism is on a spectrum; severe cases often result from childhood trauma and emotional neglect.
  • Chronic stress in childhood may cause neurological changes (“arrested development”), leaving adults with an impaired ability to regulate emotions (amygdala hijack).
• Negotiating with narcissists: Standard logic and reason don’t work with someone stuck in emotional mode; understanding their psychological triggers is key.

Notable quote:
"You cannot communicate or negotiate with this type of person in the same way as with a rational person—they’ll self-sabotage just to take you down."
—Rebecca Zung (24:20)

4. The Narcissism “Epidemic” and Its Overuse (30:13 – 34:55)

• Increase in diagnoses: The frequency of diagnosed narcissism has risen significantly (citing Dr. Jean Twenge; 30% increase from the 1970s-2010).
• Word of caution: There’s overuse of the term—people often mislabel ordinary difficult behavior as narcissism.
• Focus on “high conflict”: Rebecca prefers this term, emphasizing how you feel in the relationship rather than labels.

Notable quote:
"Everyone deserves to be respected… contracts and terms are negotiable, your self-respect is not."
—Rebecca Zung (33:06)

5. Hallmarks of Covert Narcissism and Red Flags (35:49 – 39:16)

• Covert narcissists: Often passive-aggressive, smiling in public but undermining in private; use gaslighting, subtle exclusion, backhanded compliments.
• Key red flag: Persistent feelings of confusion or being undermined.
• High conflict people: Pattern of leaving others feeling “crappy” or doubting reality.

Notable quote:
"They want to attach themselves to you to look good, but underneath is anger and insecurity … you just always feel awful around them."
—Rebecca Zung (37:59)

6. The S.L.A.Y. Method for Dealing with Narcissists (39:50 – 42:23)

Rebecca describes her proprietary framework:

• Strategy: Creating a clear vision and pathway forward.
• Leverage: Identifying points of influence (her AI tool offers script and strategy suggestions based on her materials).
• Anticipate: Understanding the narcissist's triggers and likely behaviors.
• You: Maintaining mindset and emotional regulation.
  She’s developed tools, including an AI-powered assistant, and certification programs for coaches.

7. Lessons from High Net Worth Negotiations (42:45 – 46:29)

• Narcissists’ fear: Even the most apparently powerful narcissists are more afraid of you taking your power back than you realize.
• Dramatic story: “The $2 Million Apology”—a wealthy client almost lost millions because he refused to apologize, showing the irrational need for narcissistic supply.

Notable quote:
"They attach themselves to you because you have so much value … the more you take back your power, the more afraid they are."
—Rebecca Zung (42:45)

8. High Conflict Personalities in the Workplace (49:03 – 62:54)

• Not just narcissists: “High conflict” can include people who stir the pot for entertainment or lack empathy, not just clinical narcissists.
• Workplace costs: Companies lose up to $400B/year in productivity due to high-conflict employees; managers spend up to 42% of their time dealing with them.
• Conflict management: Rebecca’s “Harmony Works” program teaches organizations about accountability trackers, co-created values, and specific KPIs around communication and behavior.

Notable quote:
"You can be a good person and care, but this is a business—you have to hold them to account."
—Rebecca Zung (57:08)

9. Building Empowering Cultures: Vision, Accountability, and Abundance (62:05 – 64:44)

• Top-down culture creation: Embedding values and daily practices; teams co-create core principles and monitor behavior—not just performance.
• Toxic employees: Even if a high-performer is toxic, terminating them is necessary to maintain positive culture and long-term performance.

Notable quote:
"The whole idea is to create a culture that inspires—a culture people want to come to, that feels like abundance, mission, and high vibration."
—Rebecca Zung (61:41)

10. Universal Lessons—Self-Worth and Operating from Abundance (68:33 – End)

• Personal boundaries: Core to all relationships, business or personal.
• Self-care and habits: Surrounding oneself with positive people, meditation, journaling, and intentional living.
• Living from your future: Visualizing success and aligning daily action with long-term goals.
• Self-belief: The most powerful asset; people treat you as you see yourself.

Notable quote:
"People will think what you tell them to think. Your value is defined by you."
—Rebecca Zung (81:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• [03:38] Rebecca Zung: “My whole life up until now—the theme has been survival... That's changed recently. Now I'm about abundance.”
• [09:54] Rebecca Zung: “Every moment I give this person my power, I'm in victim mode and not in creation mode. The person who walked up that mountain was not the person who walked down.”
• [18:22] Rebecca Zung: “We think, as kids, we come to conclusions because things happen. Then we start forming neuronal patterns and look for evidence in reality. Then it becomes reality.”
• [24:20] Rebecca Zung: "You cannot communicate or negotiate with this type of person in the same way as with a rational person—they’ll self-sabotage just to take you down."
• [33:06] Rebecca Zung: "Everyone deserves to be respected… contracts and terms are negotiable, your self-respect is not."
• [37:59] Rebecca Zung: "They want to attach themselves to you to look good, but underneath is anger and insecurity … you just always feel awful around them."
• [42:45] Rebecca Zung: "They attach themselves to you because you have so much value … the more you take back your power, the more afraid they are."
• [61:41] Rebecca Zung: "The idea is to create a culture that inspires—a culture people want to come to, that feels like abundance, mission, and high vibration."
• [81:46] Rebecca Zung: "You define your value. You don't get your goals, you get your standards."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment Topic | Timestamp (MM:SS) | | -------------------------------------------------- | ----------------- | | Rebecca’s Early Life and Law Journey | 02:27 – 07:05 | | Move from Survival to Abundance | 07:05 – 13:30 | | Awakening to Personal Power | 09:54 | | Psychological Roots of Narcissism | 16:26 – 25:38 | | Hallmarks of Covert Narcissists | 35:49 – 39:16 | | The S.L.A.Y. Negotiation Framework | 39:50 – 42:23 | | Lessons from High Net Worth Clients | 42:45 – 46:29 | | High-Conflict Employees in the Workplace | 49:03 – 62:54 | | Culture Creation and Accountability in Teams | 62:05 – 64:44 | | Intentional Living and Future-First Mindset | 70:51 – 72:37 | | Core Life Lesson — Value Defined by Self | 81:46 – 82:13 |

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Key Takeaways

• Self-worth and boundaries: The foundation for dealing with narcissists starts with self-esteem and clear personal boundaries—both personally and professionally.
• Negotiating with narcissists: Use strategy, leverage, and emotional self-regulation (the S.L.A.Y. method); logical arguments or emotional appeals may backfire.
• Labels aren’t the answer: Instead of focusing on whether someone is a “narcissist,” focus on how the relationship makes you feel and whether your needs are met.
• Organizational lessons: High conflict is costly—invest in co-created values, accountability structures, and open conversations about expectations and behavior.
• Abundance mindset: Believing in your own capacity and value repels toxic people and attracts healthy relationships and opportunities.
• Daily habits matter: Success and self-protection are supported by mental routines: intentionality, gratitude, journaling, surrounding yourself with positive influences.

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Resources and Links

• Free Resource: Crush My Negotiation Prep Playbook — winmynegotiation.com
• Website: rebeccazung.com
• YouTube: RebeccaZung TV
• Instagram: @rebeccazung

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For anyone who hasn’t listened, this episode provides a frank, personal, and practical guide to understanding and negotiating high-conflict situations, both in personal relationships and in business. The lessons on boundaries, intentional culture, and self-belief are universally applicable. Rebecca’s candor and expertise make complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable.

Transcript

[Scott Clary]

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[Rebecca Zung]

Lot of people would say, my spouse is a narcissist. So I started studying it because I wanted to win in the courtroom. Somebody recently said to me, when you chase, you never catch. So I was chasing, chasing, chasing.

[Scott Clary]

What if the key to winning against narcissists wasn't fighting harder, but negotiating smarter? Rebecca Zung is a globally recognized negotiation expert and a USA Today best selling author who has spent decades mastering high conflict negotiations.

[Rebecca Zung]

We had this programming. We're born thinking we're amazing and then life starts layering on. We think it's do have, be, but it's actually you have to be at first and then start doing the stuff and then you'll have.

[Scott Clary]

She's helped people around the world reclaim their power in relationships, business and life. Today she's here to break down the psychology of power negotiation and how to win without losing yourself.

[Rebecca Zung]

A lot of why relationships fail. A lot of our own suffering comes from expectations. It doesn't matter. Whoever is, you deserve to be respected. The more you take back your power, they're more afraid of you than you are of them. They didn't attach themselves to you because you have so little value. Sometimes it's painful. Sometimes you gotta burn a little off to get the people that you really want. You don't get your goals, you get your standards. Your value is defined by you.

[Podcast Host]

Pick an inflection point. Pick any inflection point in your life that was meaningful enough that sort of sticks in your mind. That put you on the path that you're on today. So what was that inflection point and what.

[Rebecca Zung]

Gosh, I mean, I think that there were a lot of survival in some ways. My whole life up until now has been sort of like, the theme has been survival in a lot of ways. But that's changed recently. You know, I'm much more about abundance now and because I've done a lot of personal development work. But if you, you know, just, you know, you had that opening question, and there's so much loaded in that for me, you know, because I think, gosh, you know, I mean, I wasn't raised, like, poor, you know, like a lot of people think, you know, talk about.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

You know, my dad wasn't like a

[Podcast Host]

homelessness Rex or what.

[Rebecca Zung]

I mean, I. I know that sounds, you know, kind of. But. But, you know, my dad was Chinese. He was a doctor. My mom was German. The. She was an operating room nurse. That's how they met. But I always say I have no fun genes whatsoever.

[Podcast Host]

No jokes at all.

[Rebecca Zung]

No. But there's a lot of expectation around that, you know, because they were. They demanded a lot. So I drop out of college and. Which was my parents dream, and they love that. And I got married at 19 and I had three kids by the time I was 22. And then I had divorced. And so they brought in so happy. They just were so excited about all of that, that path. And then I was like, what the hell am I doing? I have no money. And this is life is just, you

[Podcast Host]

know, three kids, divorce, life, move quick.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yes. And so I thought, I gotta figure something out. And so I did finish college in the middle of all of that. And when. And I was teaching. I had a degree in education, so I was teaching and I said I got to put a roof over my kid's head. And. And so I. I knew I could go to law school. It was like the only advanced degree that I could get and not have a prerequisite. And plus, I knew my dad would actually be proud of me. You know, it's like doctor or lawyer.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

And so I put myself through University of Miami Law School at night while I was teaching school during the day. And, you know, I knew that. And I was 100% on student loans and lived on the student loans as well. And so when I got out, I had this massive student loan debt and I did make law review at Miami, and I got a job in Naples with one of the top family law attorneys in the country. Like, she spoke in the ABA and she Was, you know, representing very wealthy people. It's a very affluent community. And so that's how I kind of came up through the family law ranks as a baby lawyer. So she represented some pretty well known people over there. You know, what happens with Naples is it's the, the most millionaires per capita in the country, actually.

[Podcast Host]

I didn't know that.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. And so in fact, you know, it's right now, I'm pretty sure right now at least, you know, a couple months ago I had the, the most expensive listing in the country. It was like 300 million or something. And so I got to really learn the craft of high net worth divorce, which is actually a very complex area of the law because you have to know trust law and business law and tax law. And so it was, it was a good way for me to cut my teeth as a lawyer and also learn a lot about narcissism. And so that's kind of how I started studying about narcissism because a lot of people would say, hey, my spouse is a narcissist. So I started studying, studying it because I wanted to win in the courtroom. I wanted to actually figure out how to win or set up these creation and understand these people. So that's kind of how it started way back when.

[Podcast Host]

Can I ask why, why do you say that? It's only now that you're, that you're not in survival mode, not in a. But because it sounds like so the beginning of your story, everyone's going to say, yes, that sounds like survival. Like you, you know, had kids young, divorced young, kind of lost. But you by outside looking in perspective, you recovered pretty quick. Law school, you get your degree, you start practicing. That doesn't seem like survival so.

[Rebecca Zung]

Well, I met my husband in law school. You know, we got married, I had a fourth child. But even then, you know, I went out on my own, still trying to figure out how to make enough money to pay off my student loans. And it was always like stress, stress. How do I make enough money? How do I cover my bills, how do I pay for my kids, put them through private school. It was always sort of this fear of making enough money, making my parents proud instead of, you know, Brene Brown talks about hustling for your worthiness. Right. And so I always sort of had that feeling. And in 2013, I wrote my first book, Breaking Free. And I got, you know, some amount of notoriety with that. John Gray wrote the a testimonial for me and I started to do a little bit of television with that I started to do some like TMZ and Extra will call upon me to do some, you know, commentary if like some celebrities would, would get divorced or whatever, you know, I would like, you know, comment on that. And so you know, that, that was sort of like how I started to get a little taste of television or that sort of thing. So in 2017 I want to.

[Podcast Host]

You know what's interesting though, when you're a high performing person. So now it makes sense. When you're a high performing person, doesn't matter, doesn't matter how much you're succeeding if you're not in the right mindset. Lifestyle creep kicks in, you spend more money, you find ways to stress yourself out. Even if you are doing well career wise, you always feel like you're not doing enough.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And it's less of a, it's less of the reality that you're living in more like this mental prison that you're stuck in. And I think a lot of people that outside looking in somebody like you're successful, why are you. It's not that the expectations you have of yourself and the constantly needing and striving for more, it's a double edged sword because on one end, on one side, that's what makes you successful. On the other side is what makes you never happy with your own success.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right. I'm chasing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

And you know, somebody recently said to me, when you chase, you never catch. Yeah, right. And so I was chasing, chasing, chasing. So 2017, we moved to LA and I merged my practice with two other guys and I'm like, I'm not going to practice law because I just felt like my daughter was just starting high school, my youngest, and I knew that I only had a few years left with her. I wanted to spend time with her and I was like consumed with this practice. Like I built it and it was, I would say built it and it ate me because like it was. I had the top family law practice over there and I had no time for my family. I had this massive house in Naples. I was doing really well, but I had no life, literally no life. And so I knew I wanted to do something else. And so I got into a business partnership with somebody who turned out to be a covert narcissist, a female. And it didn't do well. And. But it also flattened me in a personal way because it brought back all these feelings of when I had been bullied as a child and I felt just really like it kept me up at night. And there was this time that I took My family on vacation, we were in Maui and we went to Mount Haleakala to see the sunrise. And it was so beautiful. And my daughter, who was 17 at the time, she leans over and she's like, mom, isn't it beautiful? It's like heaven on earth. I said, yeah, it is. I couldn't even enjoy it because all I could think about was this person that I was in business partnership with. And I thought in that moment, oh my God, I'm giving this person my power. I'm not even enjoying this vacation. Every moment I give this person my power, I'm in victim mode and I'm not in creation mode. So the person who walked up that mountain was not the person who walked down that mountain. I was like, I'm done with that. I'm not doing this anymore. And so I thought, I'm getting out of this. So the minute we walked down that mountain, I said, I wrote this person an email. So I'm not gonna be in this partnership anymore. I look forward to, you know, a let's do this the right way. You know, like, I really, you know, wanted to do it the right way. And of course she couldn't do it the right way. And, you know, it didn't because, you know, that's how it goes. But I felt really good about it. I ended up writing negotiate like you matter. I sent it out for testimonials. This was in 2000, fall of 2019. One of the people I sent it out to was Robert Shapiro. He ends up texting me or writing me an email saying, hey, can I write the forward? I didn't even know him. Like, magic starts happening January of 20. I start my YouTube channel. I did one video on how to negotiate with a narcissist. And, you know, the rest is history. So crazy thing is that I go back to my old business coach during that time and I was like so flattened. And I said to her, I said, you know, I just feel like the only way that I can make money is from my law practice. And she said to me, it wasn't the law practice that made the money. It was few. You're a badass, go do your thing. And it was such an upwork is

[Scott Clary]

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[Rebecca Zung]

Aha moment for me.

[Podcast Host]

Why? Why does self doubt? Because that's a moment. I think that there's been like all these different awakenings.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

In your life. You mentioned that even before. Like we press report you're saying. Well there's so many different points in my life that have been these, like, awakenings where I understood, like, my own power. And it's interesting because somebody would look at you when you're at the peak of your law career.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And think, well, if she can't even, like, you know, understand her own power and her own badassness, like, what. What hope is it for me? Like, you, every single day, you are a badass in real life. So what, in your opinion, what blinds people to, like, their own potential in business, in life and relationships? Like, why do we default to being a victim?

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. Such a great question. And it's our own neuronal patterns.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right. So we had this programming. When we're born, we're born thinking we're amazing because we come out happy. And then life starts layering on, you know, this is a perfect example. One of my best friends has two sisters, and she went one time when she. She remembers this moment where her two sisters were sitting on her aunt's lap. And she goes to sit on her aunt's lap. And she was the third sister to try to sit on her aunt's lap. And when she goes to try to sit on her aunt's lap, her aunt went, ah, too many kids. Everybody off. And in that moment, she decided she wasn't lovable. Instead of thinking, maybe her aunt just didn't want three kids on her left. Right.

[Podcast Host]

And that's childhood trauma.

[Rebecca Zung]

And that's what happened.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right. We think we come to conclusions as kids because different things happen. And instead of thinking, well, maybe it was other circumstances or maybe the adult was having a bad day, or maybe the adult had trauma or whatever, because as kids we can't process that. But life happens to us as kids. And then we start forming neuronal patterns and we come to conclusions and then we start looking for evidence in reality during our lifetime, and then it becomes reality. It kind of is. Like what we talked about before we started recording was like the be, do, have thing. Right. So we have to be it. We think it's do and then we'll have. And that we think it's do, have, be. Right. You're going to do the stuff and then we'll have it, and then we'll be what we want. Right. Because then we'll feel it. But it's actually you have to be at first and then start doing the stuff and then you'll have, you know,

[Podcast Host]

so you have this early childhood trauma that shapes your perception of the world. And I have conversations about this A lot. And that early childhood trauma, or any kind of trauma, it just goes into your subconscious, and then it's almost like the operating system is always running in the background that you don't even realize that's. That it's there. And it can impact epic relationships. Right. Your. Your. How you approach your career. It can. I've heard in situations like it's. If it's so serious, it can actually affect you physically. Oh, yeah, this, this trauma.

[Rebecca Zung]

So amygdala hijack.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, exactly.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So what is it? So people that are listening to this have never done any sort of therapy, never done any sort of self work. I believe that everybody has traumas. Doesn't matter what you don't think you do.

[Rebecca Zung]

And that's narcissism.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So what? So explain the connection, because I want to. So this is obviously the podcast helping somebody who is the victim or in a relationship with a narcissist. But what is. What is. Like, let's define what narcissism actually is. So is a narcissist is narcissism. Childhood trauma just manifested differently?

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So why would somebody turn to a narcissist when somebody does it?

[Rebecca Zung]

I mean, we all have some degree of narcissism. I mean, because it is a spectrum. Right. So what happens in childhood? Well, what happens with all of us when we go into survival mode, when the way we're wired up, you know, the way we were wired up is that if we think that we need to be in survival and the body doesn't know the difference between when there's a bear standing in front of us or not, the body reacts the same way. So the way we were designed is that if we need to survive, our bodies emit chemicals, hormones, which are mostly adrenaline and cortisol. And that was the way. The reason why it was designed that way is so that we could be stronger or run faster. Well, you know, be ready to do something about it. And we weren't designed to have to deal with this for long term. It was supposed to be short term. But what happens if we're in this stress mode for long term is that it can actually cause damage to the body. Right. And so if you're a child and this stress hormone is, is being emitted all the time, then it can actually cause damage to the limbic system, part of the brain. So that's the. And the emotional center of the brain, and it can actually cause arrested development. Okay. So when this person grows up. So let, let's say it's because they've had neglect or abuse, or they've witnessed abuse, or maybe it's overindulgence or, you know, whatever it is. And it's, it's, it hits different people different ways. So they could grow up in the same home. And maybe it's, they're different ages or maybe they were not at home as much, or maybe they're more sensitive or whatever. They don't really know why people develop it in different ways, but they're, they, they develop arrested there. They have arrested development.

[Podcast Host]

They don't develop the way that you

[Rebecca Zung]

should, the way they, you should. So their, their prefrontal cortex continues to develop. So that's the thinking, judgment, reason part, which is this part. Um, so they grow up and now what happens is as adults, when they're triggered by something that's not usually reasonable or rational, like they think they're going to lose control or that somebody has slighted them in some way. It could be a tone of voice, it could be an eye roll, it could be whatever, body movement or whatever. Now it causes that limbic system to take over. And I've talked to brain experts about this. It literally shuts down the prefrontal cortex. So this rational part of the brain is no longer in control at all. It's literally shut down. Like they can see this on a scan. And so now the living system is the only thing that's in control. And so now they're no longer thinking from any sort of rational or reasonable place. And so now you're just dealing with full emotion. And sometimes it's rage. And they don't even realize this themselves. And so now that's why you cannot communicate or negotiate with this type of a person in the same way that you can with a person who's rational or reasonable. Because they'll actually self sabotage to take you down. They're like, oh, I'm going to burn my business to the ground so that I don't have to pay you. And I remember not understanding this as an attorney, like why in the hell would this person do that? It makes no sense. But they, they don't even realize what they're doing. They don't realize what they're doing. So it's, it's crazy. But you know, they're in full image. Amygdala hijack at that point.

[Podcast Host]

Quick question.

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[Podcast Host]

It knows.

[Scott Clary]

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[Podcast Host]

so I, you know, reading between the lines, it sounds like. And narcissist has almost become this, this buzzword. Right, Right. And I think that it's also important to identify what is and what isn't, because I'm sure you deal with a lot of people said, oh, you know, my, my partner is a narcissist when they're actually not. But when they are, the issue is if I, we're talking about a, like a relationship. But it would. The same goes for business. Let's say I love this person. Obviously not business, hopefully. Dude, just like a, a, like a partner, whatever. Boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, white. The first thought you're going to have is, oh, I want to try and like, work through this, fix it. But if they're not thinking there's anything wrong, then all this trying to fix them. I mean, I don't know how you get it to go anywhere.

[Rebecca Zung]

You just really don't. And you also can't blame them. I mean, you know a lot of the issue. And you know, Chris Lee, we were talking about Chris Lee before. He's a mentor and also an amazing coach, and he talks a lot about expectations and a lot of why relationships fail. And a lot of our own suffering comes from expectations. And, you know, we expect people to act in a certain way, and then we get disappointed when they don't. And, and, you know, if you just stop and think, well, how much of something is happening because we expected this and they didn't measure up to that, and, okay, well, you know, somebody's not going to do something just because you expected it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, of course.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

So. But I also want to just touch on that thing that I just mentioned. So why is narcissism, it seems like such a buzzword now. And why does everybody think that somebody who isn't acting right is a narcissist immediately? Well, I can't imagine that there's this many narcissists running around. It seems like there's a.

[Rebecca Zung]

Well, first of all, Dean Twenge, in her book the Narcissism Epidemic, which was quoted this past year in a Harvard Business Review article, which is a book, said that from the 1970s to 2010, there was an increase in people who were diagnosed with narcissism personality disorder by 30%.

[Podcast Host]

It's a lot.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. And so I do think there, I mean, there obviously has been an increase in np, npe. Now they attribute that to social media overindulgence, different types of parenting styles. You know, I think the way maybe Gen Xers or parenting, you know, baby boomers were different types of parents. I. I don't know. Who knows? Obviously it's all conjecture. Yeah, I mean, but I think. Or maybe they weren't diagnosing it before. Who knows? There is an increase in the numbers, for sure. I think that maybe there's more of an awareness of it now. But I, by that same token, I do think that there is an overuse of the word. I think people are too quick to use the word, for sure. And I definitely don't think everybody's a narcissist and all of that. And I think people do need to be careful about using it and just calling people that and, you know, just throwing it around. For sure.

[Podcast Host]

I think that also it's like outside of just calling people that and hurting their feelings, I think the actual issue is, okay, how do people proceed through tough relationships? Because how you proceed through a tough relationship and, and the work that you do with the work that you work on together, or if you think, am I going to continue in this relationship or exit the relationship? I'm assuming a lot of that depends on whether or not you diagnose this correctly.

[Rebecca Zung]

I mean, I know this is what I say all the time. First of all, I mean, I like to use the word high conflict more than narcissist because I think it's a little more appropriate, number one. But number two, what I like to say is if the relationship, you know, I like to say, you know, this approach isn't working for me or this isn't working for me, or how do you feel in the relationship? I mean, you know, a lot of times, use your heart, use your gut instead of your head. You know, don't. Don't slap labels onto it. Right. You know, you know how you feel in the relationship. Do you feel like your needs are being met? You know, and it, and it doesn't have to be a personal relationship either. You know, it could be. I mean, I've been in jobs before. I mean, you know, I had my own business for a long time now, but I've definitely been in jobs before where I know that it hasn't been working for me, where I haven't felt heard, I haven't felt honored, I haven't felt respected. And, you know, try to work it out, try to have a conversation, try to have communication that feels honored and respected. And I always say it doesn't matter if it's your mother, your sister, your brother, your boss, your colleague, whoever you are, whoever is, you deserve to be respected. Contracts, issues, terms, those are the things that are negotiable. What's not negotiable? Your self respect, who you are. So I would say be less apt to jump in and use labels because it really. Those don't matter as much.

[Podcast Host]

I understand. So at the end of the day, listen, whether or not this person is clinically a narcissist. Right. Or if they're just an asshole. Regardless.

[Rebecca Zung]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

Maybe don't be with them.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

Or don't get into business. Because that's. Yeah, that's a very good point. I mean, it doesn't really matter if they're. I think that. Yeah, I think that if they're not salty, regardless, you should probably try and exit out of that as quick as possible. Exactly. Um, but the, the business partner that you had, the, the COVID narcissist, maybe describe. Well, you can describe sort of like the hallmarks of what a narcissist or being in a relationship with a narcissist feels like, but then also talk about COVID narcissist so that people can sort of be aware of that in concept, so that hopefully they can look for signals ahead of time. So they don't. I'm assuming COBRA means you don't realize it till it's too late. But is there anything that you can look at? I go into business with this person, I'm going on dates with this person, spending some time with this person, anything that could be like red flag. Very red flag behavior.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. Passive aggressive. They smile to your face. They seem really kind to everybody else, but to you, you know, they'll agree to do things and then, you know, weeks later, they haven't done it. You ask them about it, where is it? They'll either say they're working on it or they'll say, oh, I never said that I was going to do that. I'll gaslight you too. They gaslight you. Oh, we talked about that and you said you were going to do it. Or they, they use parts of conversation and oh, no, we said that it was going to be like that and you know, like that sort of thing, or money situations, like, oh, I didn't, I didn't know how to deposit it in the bank account, so I put it in my bank account, you know. So you're like always sort of confused about how to bring things up with them. Oh, they might say Things like, oh, that dress looks really great on you for, you know, your body type.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, so it's like a. Never, like a compliment. It's a compliment with like a. Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

Or like an inadvertent thing where they left you off an email chain and then they end up meeting with a client that. The event you weren't on there, and, oh, I thought. I thought I put you on that. And. And they're always sort of smiling, but everybody else thinks they're. They're so nice. And. And, you know, and. And so it's. You're always sort of feeling sort of crappy. You just always feel crappy and you

[Podcast Host]

can't, like, put a finger on it.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

That's very scary. Wow. So explain to me that. Why would they. Why. Again, I'm trying to probably think through this too logically, but why do they do some of those things that don't even serve them? That's what I don't understand. Like, you're mentioning some examples of leave you off an email chain, like, but, like, how does that even help them? Is it just.

[Rebecca Zung]

They want to always want to just sort of push you down just because they're just really, really insecure. There's an underlying rage. There's just this underlying rage. There's this underlying insecurity. Yeah. And. But they need you and they want to attach themselves to you to make themselves look good. But they're. And they're highly, highly competitive. So it's just this underlying competitiveness rage. But it almost feels like they don't like you the whole time. But they. And. And there's this competitiveness, like they're having meetings or things without you, but it's. It's so. It kind of makes you crazy the whole time. Like, the whole time you're with them, you just feel awful.

[Podcast Host]

And listen, this is. I think we covered some of this stuff when we first did a show a couple years ago, but just we can touch on this briefly. And then I want to talk about some of the other stuff that you work on and some of the stuff you do with, like, companies. I think that's also interesting and how this ties into it. But when somebody's in a relationship with a narcissist, what. What is the. The playbook? To get out of it or even to recognize it and then get out of it.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. I mean, you just know, like, the whole time that they're not on your side, even though they say they're on your side, you just know that there's something that's off. And then when you bring it up, they, they say the right things all the time, but you just, you can feel that it's not. Not. Yeah. And. And then they gaslight you into, you know, there's. You can tell if somebody's actually for you. Right?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

How do you get out of it? I mean if, you know, when they know that their supply source is going out the door, they're not going to make it fun. Right. So you just have to be prepared. And that's where my slay method comes into to play. And so strategy, leverage, anticipate and you. And strategy is having that vision, that clear place that you're going and knowing exactly how you're going to get there. I now actually have AI in my program. So it's super cool actually.

[Podcast Host]

How do you use it?

[Rebecca Zung]

So I created my own GP key where people can put all of their documentation in there and they can ask it questions. They can have it create their strategy. They can actually have it create their leverage. I programmed it with my books, my programs, my YouTube videos. They can ask it how I would create leverage, how I would respond to their attorneys, how to write letters. It even writes like motions. It creates case law for them in their districts and everything.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. It's pretty awesome.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's. It. I mean like this is so I think that that's, that's a great use case of AI because when people are in this business or personal with a narcissist, I think the biggest issue is most people feel lost and alone. And I think that's actually why they stay in these relationships.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Because the. From where they are now, where they need to be to get out of it, it just seems like this massive insurmountable hill they have to climb.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. It creates their timelines. It does everything to them. So then, so that's the leverage piece. And then anticipate is like their triggers, like how to manage their triggers. They teach them everything they need to know about that, like what the narcissist is going to do or the different types of narcissists like we were just talking about. And then you is managing their mindset and, and creating like how they're going to stay like untriggered. And I'm creating like a hundred percent that they know they're gonna win. And I teach them how to do that. And then I have a certification program so that they can become a coach and teach other people how to do this and create a whole career from it. And then from there they can become trainers for me in, in my corporate and government programs, which is really awesome.

[Podcast Host]

I want to talk about corporate government programs and like how you, how you take some of these learns and you, and you use them in the workplace. But just a cur, just curious, out of all these high net worth people that you worked with when you're doing this family law, what would be some of the things that you learned from these high net worth, ultra high net worth people about narcissism that you think like the average person should know?

[Rebecca Zung]

They're more afraid of you than you are of them. I mean for one thing, I mean they didn't attach themselves to you because you have so little value. They attach themselves to you because you have so much. Most people think that they're so uber confident and that they're so, oh my God, do you have any cakes to go up against them and all of that. Like you're ever people saying that to me whenever. The, the more you take back your power, they're so afraid that you're going to figure out that, that secret. They're, they're more like the Wiz, the Wizard of Oz who's like behind the curtain, you know, like, and, and the minute you become Glinda the Good Witch, like, oh, you have no power over here.

[Podcast Host]

Like, do you see, like, do you see when you start to push back against, you know, these very rich, successful narcissists, like they start to crumble, they start to unleash.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah, they're, they're the worst. Right before they're ready to give up, they're like the two year old having a tantrum on the floor.

[Podcast Host]

That's really how it manifests because they're trying to law out of that power.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Tell me, tell me the worst or most interesting story without, without names I dealt with.

[Rebecca Zung]

I, it was his, I call it the $2 million apology. So I had a case one time where I was representing this guy who was like one of the biggest developers in Florida and his. We were just about to settle the case and he was going to have to pay like $2 million in alimony and the wife was getting a lot of assets as well. And at the very end of the night, after like 12 hours mediating, his mediator came in and he pulled me out before I had to talk to my client. He pulled me out into the reception area and he said, rebecca, I have this like a really weird request from the life, but I want to ask you about it first. And he's like, she's Willing to waive alimony, but only if he goes in there and apologizes for everything that he did during marriage and the way he treated her. Like, what's the catch? She goes, no patch. She just. He has to go in there and, like, sincerely apologize. You're like, all right, so I going back in. I'm like, this is what you got to do. You got to go in there and you got to apologize. You got to make it sincere. I'm like, thinking, he's going to jump at this, right?

[Podcast Host]

So you're sold 2 million bucks.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. And he goes, I'm not doing that. And the reason she wanted it is because it was going to be monthly over some period of time. And she knew that he just going to make her life a living hell every month because it's stringy's attached and whatever. Which is exactly why he wanted it, because he wanted some way to continue to get narcissistic supply every month. Keep. Keep the thing going.

[Podcast Host]

It's like drugs to drugs. Yeah, it's drugs.

[Rebecca Zung]

And I'm like, yes, you are. I'm gonna kick your ass. Go over there and do it. Yeah. And because, you know, also, he was gonna come back at me and go, help him to make me do it. You know, let.

[Podcast Host]

So he's like, so when you're a narcissist to one person, you're a narcissist to everybody, right?

[Rebecca Zung]

And so I'm like, get over there with my fellow. He finally gets up. He's like, six, five. And so I'm watching him like some dog with his tail between his legs. And he gets over there, and he apologized, and she weighed alimony. It was worth it to her to get the guy out of her life.

[Podcast Host]

And he was about to walk away.

[Rebecca Zung]

He was about to walk. He was about to not do it, but he did it. I call it the $2 million apology. But that's how much he wanted to hold on. And that's how much it was worth it to her to give me.

[Scott Clary]

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[Podcast Host]

Like, listen, I think it's hard for people to understand that don't they don't that aren't narcissist. It doesn't make any sense because you don't have that logic. Yeah. You don't have that logic. Yeah. That's absolutely incredible. I take the 2 million you did get. What a humanitarian. I'll say. Sorry, I don't mind. Yeah, that's crazy. That's absolutely. So now I know that a lot of your work has been with people, I'm assuming that are going through difficult relationships. But there's also people in like the workplace.

[Rebecca Zung]

A lot of them.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Okay, so what's happening with the people and like describe, describe what somebody's experience in, in their, in their job, for example, that they come to you. Be like, listen, I need help.

[Rebecca Zung]

Well, I mean, there's so many. But there's a.

[Podcast Host]

Pick a one that comes up a lot.

[Rebecca Zung]

I guess that comes up a lot. I mean, there's some interesting ones. I mean, I had an interesting one that was in my book actually, where this one woman, she was a C level executive who wasn't even looking for a job, actually. And she was enticed to go over to a company in Asia. And she was going to be. She was promised to be CEO of a company in all of Asia. And she went over there several times. It was like a private company, billionaire company. The guy, which is a company that family owned it, based in Switzerland. Sun ran the Asia side of it, okay. And promised her the moon. Like, you can start a woman division, do all sorts of things. And she webbed it. I mean, total, totally love bombed her. Okay. So she goes over there, she quits her job. Her husband, she and her husband moved to Hong Kong. This is where it was going to be based. She gets there, she doesn't even have an office when she gets there. Like, they move boxes like. And the guy doesn't even meet with her when she gets there. After all this, all this back and forth, they start paying her the salary, but she doesn't get the title. She's. She tries to meet with the guy, she gets treated badly. She. They start like putting stuff in her file that she's difficult. Like, it was so crazy that she ends up hiring me. And I ended up. Because my brother had worked in Hong Kong for years, I ended up referring her to a lawyer that he knew over there. And they ended up suing the company. And she got like a pretty good settlement, but she never even got what she wanted over there. It was so crazy. So.

[Podcast Host]

But what's happening there? I don't, like, I don't.

[Rebecca Zung]

She ended up like, she finally met with the guy, but she never met the physician. She just. He just enticed her over there. And she never got anything that she wanted from it. She just got like. I don't know what the hell he was doing.

[Podcast Host]

So is that. Is that an example of a narcissist who's looking for a target? Yeah, like, I messed with her. He just wanted to. Just wanted to put up a job posting for a position to just, just

[Rebecca Zung]

mess with her life. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

He didn't even know her before she applied.

[Rebecca Zung]

No. And she was like, went to Wharton she was seeing a bowl of like a Fortune 20 company. It was crazy. Fortune Toys. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

That's crazy.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. But you know what, it turned out to work in her favor because she started her own business. And you know, but that was a crazy story too. Like, there's so many crazy people out there.

[Podcast Host]

What, what are you, what are you pulling in from like your, your experience dealing with narcissists and, and these sort of high stakes negotiations. How did that play into a company for like a founder, CEO or even somebody within a company? Like what? Like why would they hire you? What are the things that they can learn from your, your.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah, so we teach conflict resolution, you know, Haitian techniques. We, it's called Harmony Works is the name of the training. And we work with the CEO, we work with executive teams, we work with vice presidents who work with HR departments and then other teams if they want us to. But I have a pretty big wealth of resources now because I've trained a lot of coaches at this point, hundreds coaches at this point. So right now, companies are spending close to $400 billion a year on high conflict employees. And managers are spending up to 42% of their day dealing with high postulate employees. And so there's, you know, so much money is being spent on this. So there's such a huge need.

[Podcast Host]

What is. So does high conflict mean narcissist?

[Rebecca Zung]

No, not necessarily.

[Podcast Host]

Because I want to understand the parallels between what you learned dealing with narcissists and how that plays into this. High conflict employed.

[Rebecca Zung]

I mean, high conflict can mean just somebody who enjoys just, you know, I remember my father in law actually, and here, you know, God rest his soul. But he was actually, I don't think he was a narcissist, but I think he was a high conflict. I mean, so, you know, he was like somebody that at dinner.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

He would get somebody riled up and he just did it for, you know, just sort of for fun. Yeah. And he'd say, no, we're having a conversation.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so he's not a narcissist, but he does like the trigger.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. Like get people sort of upset and you know, and it was like, kind of annoying.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right. But some people are just like that and just kind of stir the pot kind of people. And, and so they see that 10% of the population is high conflict.

[Podcast Host]

That's what's costing companies $400 billion. Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

And, and, and that doesn't count the people. So 15% of the population has a personality disorder that lacks empathy. So that's partially Narcissism.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

There's, you know, roughly 6% of the population has MPE, but then there's other personality disorders that lack empathy. So that could be bipolar, the other, you know, sociopaths or whatever that lack empathy. Right. So that's a pretty big part of the population lacks empathy.

[Podcast Host]

And then that's. And then I'm assuming outside of what you work on in your training, most managers is many. 42% of your time. It's a small portion of their team that's. That's causing the most headache for this manager. They have no idea how to deal with it. And they're just like, oh, my goodness. Like, this person is performing. They're hitting their KPIs in the business. They're hitting their numbers, their targets, whatever. But they're causing a ton of headaches.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. And they, so they. And a lot of people, managers, necessary, you know, or others lack boundary or, you know, they don't. And I was one of those people, to be honest with you, in the past, I don't have that issue anymore, but would lack boundaries. So, like, for example, in the past, I would have an employee who would, maybe I have a sick child, so I can't function. I can do this, whatever. And so they wouldn't hit their numbers or they wouldn't do what they're supposed to do. They wouldn't perform at work. And, and, and you know, sometimes that there's like, narcissistic tendencies around that kind of. The victim. Narcissist, the vulnerable narcissist. Right. And, and you go, oh, well, I, I don't want to be perceived as not a good person. I can't hold them to.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, okay. You know, like managers or humans.

[Rebecca Zung]

Oh, well, I would. Am I not empathetic if I don't. So I'm not going to hold them to account for that. Well, no, you have to hold them to account. You can be a good person and care about them, but you. This is a business.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

So you have to hold them to account.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's tough. And I think also some managers are probably scared about if somebody has like a, you know, somebody has a story about what's going on. They're like, they're scared to make a move because you see people getting sued left, right and center for saying the wrong thing or firing the person for the wrong reason. So you get scared because you're like, I don't want it. It's just easier to deal with a headache. Right. Than to deal with the bigger headache. The Potential bigger headache. The thing in the.

[Rebecca Zung]

But if you have accountability trackers, which is what we create, everybody understands that these are the accountability trackers and everybody contributes to creating accountability trackers and everybody holds everybody to account for it. Then it's, it's agnostic. It's, it's, it's, this is what it is.

[Podcast Host]

So part of the strategy is first of all empowering people to say, listen, you have to hold people accountable. If it doesn't matter if they're narcissistic, narcissistic tendencies, just high conflict, some sort of other really high conflict personality trait or neurological trait, you have to hold people accountable.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

Accountability trackers are one way to do

[Scott Clary]

it because then you have the data.

[Rebecca Zung]

You have the data. But before we even get there, we also create core principles, core visions, core values. So which everybody contributes to creating.

[Podcast Host]

So the high conflict person to contribute to that.

[Rebecca Zung]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

That's right.

[Rebecca Zung]

So what are, what are those? Okay, we all have integrity. We all have, you know, and everybody creates what that's going to be. So I'm, you know, what are some of the words that we're going to create usually is things like vision or we all have accountability or we all have integrity. We do what we say we're going to do. When we say we're going to do it. What, you know, and it's not some thing that we throw in a drawer. It's something that we actually are going to state every day or we use, we say it on our team meeting. We're going to like it's an active document. It's an active, living, breathing thing that we work from, that we are that.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so then once they co create and then, then there's accountability and is there anything that, and I'm assuming once the, once you have the accountability tracker and you understand whether or not they're performing, then obviously if they're not performing, then that's an, that's an easy, it's not an easy, but it's like at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel for this manager who's dealing with this person. Right? What do you do? If they are performing but they're a

[Rebecca Zung]

high conflict person, they don't, they don't get to stay. Right. Because there's, that's part of what they look at every single week, right?

[Podcast Host]

Oh, it's not just accountability in terms of, because this results.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right? It's, it's communication. How do they communicate? It's, how do they interact with each other? It's. There's they, they, they create. Part of what they do over the 12 weeks is they create a team success playbook. And the team success playbook looks at a lot of things. They don't look at just how they're performing as far as their sales goal.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

It's their communication goals. It's how they interact with each other. It's their, it's, it's several things. They look at several factors. It's not just.

[Podcast Host]

And is that hard, not just money. Yeah, no, I understand. So that's, so that's actually how you get the outcome that you're looking for.

[Rebecca Zung]

Because I think that is how are they going to measure that.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, understood. Because that's the difficult thing. It's the. How do you measure it? How do you measure something that CNN's entity create?

[Rebecca Zung]

KPIs.

[Podcast Host]

Understood. Yeah. I think that if I think about my corporate career, which I haven't worked in a company for a while now, but I don't think things have changed that much. I think that managers are so focused on numbers and KPIs and business metrics that they let a lot of other shit slide.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

And I think that, that in the short term they're thinking very short term. Well, I'm going to hit my numbers, I'm going to look good. But they don't realize that that's demoralizing your entire team. It's running the productivity, productivity of the whole team. And I think long term it's actually going to hurt your business numbers more than it helps.

[Rebecca Zung]

The whole idea of it is to create a culture that inspires, a culture that empowers, a culture that creates vision, a culture that people want to come to, a culture that is. Feels like abundance, A culture that feels like a mission. Culture that feels like high vibration.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. And you can tell when it's toxic. Yeah, you can tell when it's not. And I, and sometimes though it also comes from the manager too.

[Rebecca Zung]

Well, it has to come from top down.

[Podcast Host]

No, I'm saying sometimes a negative comes from.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right, right. Everybody has to want it to be there. Right. I mean, because what happens is if everybody is on board, then that one person who's toxic just cycles out because it's, it's a vibrational thing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

His, you know, like if everybody is tuned into 107.3, that person is 88.5. Just can't.

[Podcast Host]

So you've seen that. So when you set this up properly, you see the kind of self select

[Rebecca Zung]

out because elect out because it's A vibrational thing. I would say that, you know, radio waves can't travel with light waves.

[Podcast Host]

That's so interesting. So that's another thought too. If you create the culture that, that is that strong, you are naturally going to attract the right people and reject the wrong people.

[Rebecca Zung]

100 and sometimes it's painful because, you know, you might say, you know, you know, that person, the performer or whatever, but if that person's toxic, you don't want that person there. You'll attract the right people that way. Sometimes you gotta burn a little off to get the people that you really want. You gotta clear the energy to get the right energy in.

[Podcast Host]

I believe that. And I think that when companies start, when a founder is just starting out, they have the best intentions. I mean unless the founder has problems. But say the founder is like a well intentioned person and they're a good person, not a narcissist, not a high conflict person.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

When they first start out and there's like, you know, like one layer beneath them, then everything's okay. But it's when you start to add on layers and layers and layers and then you lose track of everything that's happening.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I think that if you don't do this purposefully, then it's just chance. Whatever happens, whatever direction your organization takes, I think that if you don't set these, these, these call these cultural sort of signals up right away and you don't build them with your team like you're mentioning, then the culture just takes form of like the lowest denominator. Higher.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

If you're not careful.

[Rebecca Zung]

You can't be afraid to build what you want to build. Yeah. You can't hold on to.

[Podcast Host]

No, you have to, you have to always have this abundance mindset. Even when you're hiring. Like, you know, what happens is you'll find an employee that's qualified to do the job. And they can, but they're an asshole. But they're like, they're very qualified to do the job.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And that's the first mistake. And then you hire that person and they'll make the money, but they'll, they'll, they start to poison everything. Poison everything.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah, I made that mistake.

[Podcast Host]

And I think everyone has, everyone has. Because when you're, when you're starting it, you're so stressed.

[Scott Clary]

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[Podcast Host]

How do I just keep the lights on? How do I just keep this business? Everything else seems secondary. Yeah, that's a big mistake.

[Rebecca Zung]

Huge mistake.

[Podcast Host]

What. What are the differences between high conflict people that you'd have to deal or what are the, I guess the lessons that would be different between dealing with a high conflict person in a business versus a personal relationship? What are things that are the same? What are things that would be a little bit different and how you met? Is there any difference at all or. No, I mean that's not about that.

[Rebecca Zung]

But that just really kind of comes back to boundaries. Right. I mean, and just your own self worth again. I mean, I know for me I just made the decision and never giving a light for anyone ever again. I mean, you know, and just not allowing anyone to like being humble.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

But also knowing who I am, really being humble but being okay with if, if somebody wants to leave or whatever, that's okay, you know. So I think just being the same in whatever relationship you're in, whether it's owning my business or, or. Or in my personal life too, and not being afraid if that person's gonna go or prevale. Like it's okay.

[Podcast Host]

Do you ever find yourself slipping for worse?

[Rebecca Zung]

I mean, I'm a human being.

[Podcast Host]

How do you bring yourself back when you find. When you've done the work and, and you know, all the things you're supposed to know and you still slip. How do you bring yourself back?

[Rebecca Zung]

Well, first I think surrounding yourself with the right people. I mean I have really good people around me. I have really amazing friends.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

Amazing mentors. I listen to good audiobooks, podcasts.

[Podcast Host]

Right. The running thoughts.

[Rebecca Zung]

Meditate, pray. This, doing the work. Journaling.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I think unclouding your thoughts.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah, I do gratitude journals constantly. You know, he's just doing the work.

[Podcast Host]

What would Be one thing that somebody who has been in a. In a relationship, business or personal, with a narcissist in the past or is in one right now. Not one thing they can do to remove themselves from that relationship because you've spoken about that. What's one thing they can do for themselves right now that can make sure that it won't happen again? I mean, you mentioned a couple that. What's one that you think maybe helped

[Rebecca Zung]

you pull it out or surround yourself with the right people and just keep your vibrational energy high, you know, what rituals are you doing to make sure that you keep your vibrational energy high? You know, one of the things that I do when I'm training my coaches is seen from your future, not from your past. So write out. Okay, it's December 31, 2025. What are you celebrating? What? What? You know, because otherwise you're going to have a default future. Right. Because we're so programmed to think from the past, we don't ever realize that. So what are you celebrating in December 31, 2025? Okay, now think from that quarterly. Now think from it monthly. Now think from it daily. Like, who are you? Who are you showing up as? What intention do you have? I even do this with my team every day. Like, okay, what's your intention? What intention are you bringing to this conversation?

[Podcast Host]

As we were talking about this too, for your sales team? Like, you gotta believe that you can hit those numbers. You gotta believe in the product. You gotta believe in even close X amount of revenue and per day, per week, per month or per quarter. So it's all. So even. Even if it. All these lessons that we're talking about for protecting your light, protecting yourself, they all living from your future. It applies to relationships, but it also applies to success across everything else in your life.

[Rebecca Zung]

I mean, I say to my team every day, what intention are you bringing to this conversation today? What is your word for today? What is your word for this week? So being super intentional about everything that you do because. Just presencing that constantly.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

Because otherwise. Now back to old self. Old self, always. Yeah. Not careful when you're not careful.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And I think that's also why it's so important. Like you mentioned, right people, right mindset, creating space to think.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I think that one thing that leads to people staying in bad relationships is them trying to find. It's. It's funny because tell me if I'm right or wrong. So when you're in a bad relationship, you're trying to find almost like an Escape immediately, but not an escape from the relationship. You try and find like a mental escape so you clutter your mind with all these different things.

[Scott Clary]

You're always.

[Podcast Host]

You don't want to sit with your own thoughts because you're not happy with your own thoughts.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

So you try and watch TV or you drink or you go. You do all these things to distract yourself.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But when you keep distracting yourself, you don't have clear thought. You can't put effort into sitting through these uncomfortable thoughts you have, but then also making good decisions, and then you just end up almost like in this always constantly distracted world, never actually progressing because you, you have to go through sitting with your own thoughts, not being distracted, so you can actually make these good decisions.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

And I feel like you just keep distracting yourself again and again and again and again. And that can go on for years.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I think that the journaling, the meditation, the. If you're in a bad situation, maybe not drinking on the weekend and take some time to go for a while. Like, all these things seem so small, but they all create space for you to have, like, hard conversations with yourself.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. Well, you know, you are talking to amazing people.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. Yeah.

[Rebecca Zung]

Right. So you're constantly with high vibration every day.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I'm very fortunate this is a job for me. Like, yeah, this is not the norm for most people where they get to have these great enlightening conversations, like where they get to learn from the smartest people on this planet. This is not a normal job for 99.999% of people. But yes, that's. I mean, selfishly, I learned more than, than anybody because I asked. But you're right, it's very high vibration. And if you can emulate this in some ways, I think it's a. I think that you should. Yeah, I do believe that. Constantly low vibrations, always distracting, having cloudy mind, cloudy thoughts. Like, I don't think that's. That's not a way out of anything.

[Rebecca Zung]

What's the one biggest lesson somebody has taught you on this podcast?

[Podcast Host]

The biggest lesson. It's not just one person that's taught me this. It's been a. It's been a lesson that I found shows up again and again and again. It's one of self belief. So the first person to teach me this was actually Anthony Scaramucci, because I asked him how he has so much, like, confidence. The mooch. Yeah. He told me this lesson and I've heard it, like, come up again and again. And I asked him. I can't remember the Exact question. But it was something along the lines of, you know, what gives you confidence in life? And he says, well, if I went back. And now obviously, if you don't know. Scaramucho call him the moocher. This Karamuchi, he had it. He's a big finance guy, obviously. He runs SALT conference. He's worth hundreds of millions. Very successful. I was also Trump's original Director. Communication for 12 days and then give her away. But he said if I could go back to Brooklyn with nothing, but it was like a T shirt and no connections and no money and then nothing at all, I could, I could build back again exactly what I built the first time. And he just has unbelievable confidence in himself.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And belief in himself. And I think that that is the single most important X factor in anybody's success.

[Rebecca Zung]

Because the be, the be, do have.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, exactly. You have like he, he believed in him. He's so confident that if he went back to no money, no connections, nothing, he could just do it again. So that, with that mindset allows you to operate differently in this world. And when all. When you do believe in yourself to that degree almost to like a delusional amount, most people say that's a, that's delusional. Yeah, you have to be a little bit of delusion to believe in yourself that much. But I think that's good. We do believe in yourself that much. You don't put up with all the bullshit.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah. You know what? I used to be a stockbroker for Morgan Stanley.

[Podcast Host]

I didn't know Lars ago. That's a while back then.

[Rebecca Zung]

Yeah, it was crazy, right? And I worked for this top guy. He was like the top guy at Morgan Stanley. I was on his team and he was like, kind of like that. His name was Frank Ibera. And if he's watching this, you'd be so happy that I told so this story. And he always said he was very happily married, but he always said that if he got divorced, he would give his wife everything, every penny. Yeah, because he said you would make it all back.

[Podcast Host]

I like that. That's good energy. Yeah, that's very good energy. Yeah. That's a beautiful place to operate from. I don't think many people think like that. I wish more people would. I think people should give themselves the permission to think like that, to have them self confidence.

[Rebecca Zung]

And here's where millions of.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. Because it doesn't matter if you're entrepreneurial or not. When you just operate from that place of I am enough, I can do it Other people have done it before me. They're no different than me. And I can figure it out, whatever it is I'm trying to do. When you operate from that place, you move differently and you just. All these toxic people that we're talking about over the past hour or so, all these toxic people, you don't even give them the time of day because you feel no need to have that nonsense in your life. And I think that you just, there's just a much less, much lower chance of these people having any place in your life when you have that level of self confidence. And I think that's also tough for people like people. Well, how do you just develop that level of self confidence? I don't know if you have ideas, but my thought has always been to track your wins and pay attention to how like, amazing you are and how much you've, how much you've won at life. And even if you feel like in the moment things aren't going as great as. As you want them to be, if you look back at all the different times that you've won, it gives you, it gives you a little bit of self confidence and then you go in again and then you get a little bit more self confidence. But I think it's just a, it's a flywheel that I wish more people would invest time and energy into building.

[Rebecca Zung]

So I'm going to tell you this last kind of flip of that, actually, which is, you know, I had practiced law for eight years before I gone to Morton Stanley, and then I went back. So I was there for like a couple years and then I went back to start my own practice as a lawyer. And I was in Naples and I was so afraid that everybody in Naples was going to think I was such a flake because, you know, it's like a kind of a small knit community and I'm kind of like judgy or whatever. And I had gone to my business coach and I said, everybody enables scouting. I'm such a flake. And she said to me, people will think what you tell them to think. She said, you can tell them to think that you're a flake or you can tell them to think that you're the Ovid family law attorney that has a financial background. So you're actually more qualified than any other family law attorney in Naples. Which story would you like to tell? I was like, oh, maybe I'll tell the bad story. And so that's what I did. And within two years, I had the top gal practice in Naples, which is very, very lucrative. And I actually represented the owner of the biggest Mercedes dealer in actions of the world. I represented the owner of Melti Pot, the founder of Melting Pot Restaurants. Massive, huge clients at all sorts of people that we've definitely not going to be hiring a fleet. But if I had represented myself as. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I know my flake, you know, like that's what people would have seen. So it's kind of like exactly what you're describing. But the other side of life, people will see what you represent, see you about believing yourself. What I believe is.

[Podcast Host]

Don't believe.

[Rebecca Zung]

That's what I see.

[Podcast Host]

Where can people connect with you? Where do you want to send them? Social website, all of that.

[Rebecca Zung]

So I have a free crush. My negotiation prep playbook, which you can get winmynegotiation.com it's like really good. I definitely recommend people get that. My book. You can get that. I have several books on Amazon. My website is rebeccazung.com. my YouTube is rebeccasong tv. My Instagram, Rebecca Zong. My website, Rebecca's own.

[Podcast Host]

I'll put it all in the show notes there. Yeah, good. If there's anything. The last question I'd like to ask. Out of all the things that you've learned across your career, your life, it could be about conflict resolution, narcissism, just like sort of personal development and growth. Say you could only leave one lesson with your kids. Out of all the lessons that you've learned, what would that lesson be and why?

[Rebecca Zung]

I mean, you define your value. You don't get your goals, you get your standards. So, I mean, it kind of comes back to what you were saying, which is people will see what you. What you think. You know, people will think what you tell them to think. Your value is defined by you. You can persuade the energy of the rune and people will. Will see that. They'll feel it.

[Podcast Host]

It's.

[Rebecca Zung]

It's an energy. It's a. It's a. It's a heart energy. It's not a brain energy.