← Successful Nonprofits Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the Successful Nonprofits Podcast. I'm your host, Dolph Goldenberg and friends. Today's episode is a special one with Maneesh Shah. And what we're going to be talking about is how to build and repair relationships among staff and board teams. Let's face it, relationships are literally the building blocks of our effectiveness and the impact within our organizations. We rely on strong, healthy relationships to achieve our goals and make our impact known. Maneesh has spent decades in this very space. In fact, he recently launched a coaching practice after leadership and consulting roles with jbn, Accenture, IHG and Delta Air Lines since leaving the corporate world. His work is focused on helping boards, executives and leaders build strong collaborations that drive impact. Because at the end of the day, in our sector, impact is what it's about. Maneesh holds an MBA from UNC and is also a certified Take Flight facilitator. In addition to all of that, he serves as an executive coach with Emory University's Gwazetta Business School. I also have to share with you friends that I think this is like episode 350 or 360 something of the podcast. It's only the second one that I've recorded at my dining room table. So Manish is practically a neighbor of mine. He lives in the town one over from mine. And so when we realized this, he's like, why don't I just come by to record the podcast? Sold. Sold. Sold. Excited to do that. So, friends, please join me in welcoming Benish. Hey, Maneesh, welcome to the podcast.
- [01:49]
B
Thank you for having me, Dal. This is very exciting.
- [01:52]
A
So you've been coaching professionals for years, both as a coach, but also as an executive and a leader in organizations. What's the number one issue that people face in their relationships? Sure.
- [02:05]
B
So I'll just kind of backtrack a little bit. I did start off my executive career essentially with Delta Airlines when I left the consulting world. And then I joined IHG InterContinental Hotels Group. And it was at that point point that we actually used a team building company ourselves for our own teams. And what we found is that every team, no matter how mature you are, has some level of dysfunction and some level of just misunderstandings or not fully communicating specific priorities or needs with each other and getting on board with those shared goals and shared needs. So to answer your question, that really is the crux of it is just not understanding people's view of particular issues or decisions and not giving them a chance to speak thoroughly their thoughts and for other people to listen and then actually have A collaborative environment around that,
- [02:55]
A
not understanding their view.
- [02:57]
B
Two things. Right? So one is not understanding their view, and then how do you actually work better based on their personality type? And it's really that piece of the team building world that I focus most of my energy on related to team building.
- [03:12]
A
And so you're spending your time really thinking about personality types and helping other people understand the personality types of the people they work around and adjust to them.
- [03:21]
B
Exactly right. So the first step, what we do when we do a workshop is there's a little bit of an assessment related to Take Flight, and we do the assessment in advance of the workshop. Once we start the workshop, I do not hand out their assessment results because everybody gets excited and want to see the results, and they tend to tune out on some of the important theory that I share. So I introduced the concept of four birds, and we can talk about the birds in a second. Once we understand the four birds, we understand that, you know, everybody's got these birds as part of their personality. There's two dominant ones and two secondary ones that take a little bit of work to actually execute those traits. And once we understand ourselves first, then we hand out the reports and we go through a couple of different exercises, and then we actually understand all the other team members and what are their primary bird styles in the room as well. And what are the best ways that we should almost adjust the way we work and the way we approach other people based on their particular bird styles.
- [04:20]
A
So I have a feeling that my friends who are listening right now are immediately, like, okay, what are the birds? And I'll share with you, Manish. I did. I did a little bit of research and prep for this. So I think I know what the four birds are, but I'm going to be really curious to learn how we adjust to those styles. But let's talk about those four birds.
- [04:36]
B
Okay, awesome. And thanks for doing the research in advance. All right, let's start with the eagle. Right. So when you think about the eagle as a personality, as a bird type, what comes to your mind? Dolph?
- [04:46]
A
What I think about is eagle eyed, which, by the way, also was a clue on the New York Times mini last week. Sure. So I immediately think about that.
- [04:54]
B
Yes. What else comes to your mind in terms of the personality of the eagle bird when it was flying in the air? Like, what comes to your mind?
- [05:00]
A
All business, very serious. I learned something about eagles in Alaska this year, and I did not know this, that adolescent male eagles are likely to drown themselves because they will grab prey that is too big for them to be able to fly away with and they won't let go.
- [05:16]
B
Yes. So a piece of what you just mentioned is risk taking. Right. So they take high risk, high reward. That's a big part of the eagle personality. If you just think about the bird analogy for a second, we think of the words bold, we think about dominant, we think about risk taker, fast acting. You know, they fly very high, so they're very big picture oriented birds. And when they see a prey, they swoop down very fast and hopefully they get their shot and they come back right up. And if they miss, it's okay. It's all right. Mistakes are totally fine for eagles. They move on. And as you mentioned with your analogy with Alaska, sometimes they have too much of a high risk. So that's in, in general, in a nutshell, the eagle personality.
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A
Yeah. And, and so if you're working with an eagle and let's say the eagle's your boss.
- [06:01]
B
Sure.
- [06:02]
A
How do you, or maybe your board chair, if you're an executive director, maybe your board chair, how do you interact with that personality?
- [06:09]
B
Sure. So, you know, and I'd love to go through all the four bullets. Oh, sure. As well. Let's spend a second on your question over here. If you think about the eagle personality, they're very direct. They like conciseness. So if you have a choice of providing them an update with three bullets or providing their update with three paragraphs, you probably guess that they want the three bullets. Right. So that's how you want to think about interacting with a boss. That's an eagle personality. It's very straight to the point. They love executive summaries. They, they like to get to the point very quickly.
- [06:38]
A
So. And I also share with you, as I thought about these four birds, one of my favorite board chairs, she was 100% an eagle. 100%. All right, I know you probably want to talk about the next bird.
- [06:48]
B
Yeah. Let's talk about the parrot. When you think about the parrot as a bird type, what comes to your mind?
- [06:53]
A
And again, I, I've cheated because I already know what it's supposed to be. But it's. But what I think it's supposed to be is not what comes to my mind. I think of parroting, meaning if I say a word enough, a parrot will learn that word and repeat it back to me.
- [07:06]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So there's a, there's a piece to that which is really social. In order for that to happen, they have to be around people, they have to be around other Birds. And they do play off each other. Absolutely. And a parrot plays off of any type of bird. Right. So as soon as you mention a story, let's say you're talking about your best vacation in Mexico. The parrot is already thinking about the 25 stories that they have. And as soon as there's a pause, they're going to jump into the conversation and tell about their story about Mexico. Right. So they're very bright, colorful birds. If you just think about the. The bird itself, very social, very talkative. They're very optimistic, they're very positive, they're very enthusiastic. So they're the ones in a team that really bring the positivity of the energy of the team out. So that, in summary, is the parrot personality.
- [07:52]
A
Okay. All right. And so if you're working with someone who's a parrot, what are some of the ways I would want to be interacting with that person?
- [08:00]
B
Lots of energy. So you want to come in with lots of energy, lots of enthusiasm. Almost like a fun aspect of it. Even if it's a serious matter that you're working on, you can still be positive around that. Right. And that's the general clues to work with a parrot.
- [08:15]
A
Okay, let's talk about the next one.
- [08:17]
B
Yeah. So now comes the dove. So when you think about the dove as a bird, even just from a branding standpoint. Right. What comes to your mind?
- [08:26]
A
So one word, and that's peace.
- [08:28]
B
Yeah, absolutely right. It is the actual universal symbol of peace. You know, part of the Olympics is also based on using doves to open up their opening ceremonies in the olden days. So it is very focused on harmony. They have the highest listening skills. They have a nurturing ability, and they also have, even though they do not like to be in conflict, they have a great trait of managing conflict. So if there's conflict around them, they're probably the best type of personality type to solve that conflict. Why? Because they are amazing listeners. They listen to all sides, and then they help kind of ensure everybody's hearing each other out and then coming up to some decision or some conclusion, which often reduces and releases conflict.
- [09:10]
A
So if I'm sitting in a board meeting, how am I going to know who the dove is?
- [09:14]
B
Well, the dove is probably the one who's not speaking at all, unfortunately. Right. So that's how, you know, they are processing everything. They're listening. They're looking for harmony. You can potentially get a dove to speak up if you call on them or if there's something very passionate in terms of a subject matter, they will Speak up. But in terms of a big group, that is not their cup of tea. So one on one is perfect for a dove type personality, but in a group, you're going to find them a little bit quiet. And if they have something to say, they may share it afterwards, one on one with one or two other people after the meeting's over. So it's often good for the facilitator to kind of realize and identify if there's doves in the room, just to give them a chance to say, hey, do you have anything you wish to add to the conversation? Anything we may have missed? And usually when you call on them, they will say something only if it's additive. They're not the ones to speak because they want to speak. They will speak only if it's meaningful input that they can provide.
- [10:11]
A
So I've got to ask whether or not this would work with a dove. And you might be like, dolph, this doesn't work and you made a mistake. So last Saturday was facilitating a board retreat.
- [10:20]
B
Sure.
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A
And I noticed that about 40% of the people were really not speaking up when we were having big group discussions. So I took us into some activities that I call two for all activities, or where I say, okay, what we're going to talk about next is this question. We're going to divide into twos, and you and your partner are going to talk about this, and then you're going to join another pair. So now you're four. And then you, as a foursome are going to talk about it, and then we're all going to come back together. And it was. What I found interesting is in the broader group, the 40% that were quiet were still quiet. But the quality of what the group ended up talking about was actually much higher. Having done the pair exercise first.
- [11:01]
B
Absolutely. So what you basically did is you customized an exercise to almost meet a couple of different bird personality types. And that's often we want to do. And there's something at the end of this we'll talk about, which is the chameleon style, which is how do we adjust very quickly based on who we're meeting with or who we're interacting to customize their approach to meet their style. Right. So what you kind of did is in a big picture type thing, you started off to meet the eagle and the parrot's needs. They want big picture. The ones who spoke are probably eagle personality types. They have an opinion, they want to share that, and they'll be the first ones to put their hands up. But by Breaking it down into the twos and fours. Now you're actually able to pull out the parrot. And now the last bird we're going to talk about is the owl. And, and that also is a very comfortable type of environment for the owls to be in as well.
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A
Interesting. The pears are a good environment for the owls too.
- [11:50]
B
Yes, absolutely.
- [11:52]
A
So again, like I'd done some research on them and I'm like, I am somewhat surprised. Okay. Because when I think about owl, not necessarily the words that I found when I looked it up, but when I think about owl, what I think about is education. I was thinking about night vision and I think about predator. Like the owl is a fierce, fierce predator. It just doesn't like at night and so we don't see it.
- [12:14]
B
Correct. Yeah, those are great characteristics of the owl. Other characteristics that we think about the bird owl is the number one word that they use is the word who? And that is a question. So they question everything. Right. So they're very analytical, they're very process oriented, they're very steady. And once they finish their analysis and they have a decision, they know it's the right decision. So owls are always right. It just takes them a little bit time to process all the types of information. And so hence the night piece comes out, which is very natural. You sometimes don't realize that they're around from a predator standpoint. Just think about that from a goal setting standpoint. They have a goal to meet. They're going to very, in an organized approach and organized manner with a process element to it reach that goal. And they always do is now it's interesting because you mix these different personality types in a room and they're all going to be different in terms of how they approach problem solving and how they approach working with each other. Right. So as an example, we just talked about the owl, very analytical, they need a lot of data and a lot of facts. The eagle, they don't need a lot of data, they don't need a lot of facts. We already talked about them, the risk taker. So you give them a little bit of data, they're going to have a gut feeling and they're going to move very quickly and very fast. The owl will be the first type of bird personality that's going to be, you know, pardon my pun here, but ruffle their feathers. Right. They're not going to enjoy that eagle personality almost bulldozing them to make a decision in a fast way because the owl needs time to process. And so oftentimes in team meetings Even in board meetings, and I've been involved with many board meetings where this has happened, where, you know, the agenda is set. An eagle may have set a specific goal or direction, and an owl may interrupt the flow with a few questions. And a lot of people think at that point in time that the owl is not on board. That the owl is actually just trying to take us off track or, you know, misalign us. That is absolutely wrong. The owl is 100% going to come on board. They just need a little bit of time to ask their questions, get all the facts, analyze it, process it, and then potentially come to the same conclusion as the rest of the group. It just takes them a little bit more time and they're often, you know, found to be a little bit from a negative standpoint, thinking of like, hey, you're not on board, you're not bored. That's not the case at all. They just need a little bit of time to process.
- [14:44]
A
Okay, so I also have to say, as you've talked about it, as I've read about these four birds, I feel kind of stuck because I feel like I can definitely see some eagle traits in myself.
- [14:59]
B
Sure.
- [15:00]
A
Some parrot trades, some dove trades, and then owl as well. And I don't know at this point in my life that there's anyone that's like, oh, this is 50% sure. I don't think it's a quarter, A quarter, A quarter, but it's probably like 30, 30, 20, 20.
- [15:16]
B
Yeah, no, that's a very fair assessment. And so I'm going to talk about the assessment in a second. In terms of we do have an assessment that can actually give you the answers of what you're looking for. The overall goal here in terms of big picture view of team building and using the analogies of these birds is, number one, exactly what you're talking about, Dolph, which is understanding yourself first, what makes you tick and how do you want to be approached to be very comfortable in the environment that you want to be in using your natural personality? That's half of it. The other half is how do you read other people fairly quickly in terms of what their personality type is and then how do you adjust your style to ensure you have a win Win. Right. So those are the two steps that we want to take in this overall process of team building for boards in terms of the assessment. So, yeah, if you were to take the take flight assessment through me or any of our, you know, other facilitators, you would get a actual analytical report that's Based on, you know, millions of actual answers and questions that will definitely share at least your top two birds. And these two top two birds are natural to you, meaning that you don't need to take any energy, you don't need to think about them at all. They're just your natural style. The other two birds may just take a little bit of work. Now, any human, and all humans in the world have the ability to act on all four birds. And in fact, we have to be in situations where we have to act on all four birds all the time, right? In different situations. So we learn how to act on those. Just the two that come natural, you don't have to think about them. The two that are not natural, you may need to put a little bit of effort in there, right? There are a few people in the world that have what's called a tertiary style, maybe 10%, and that is three top birds, right? And then a very few, maybe a 0.025% of the population have all natural four birds, right? And there's two examples that I'll share here. One is Oprah Winfrey. Another one is Walt Disney, right? So we can go through Walt Disney very, very quickly, right? So from an eagle standpoint, he makes very quick decisions that are very bold. He's a commander, he's a leader, right? Then you think a little bit about the parrot. Everything he does is all about groups and fun and positivity and enjoyment. When you think about the dove, it is a lot about harmony and love. You know, that's the number thing he talk about when he's out with Disney World is like the happiest place on earth, right? And then in order to make that kind of construction that he did and take his vision to action, he had to have the owl personality to organize it. So that's just an example of a person who can really flex very quickly and easily. For example, for myself, you can probably already guess, you know, from me, very positive, right? So you got the parrot in me and the eagle, right? Very, very direct. So if you need me to be in a position to work with a dove or work with an owl, I need to think about it, you know, especially from an owl standpoint, I have to put my thought process, I have to put my patience on. I have to be able to analyze, and I can analyze. But after one hour in a spreadsheet, I need a break. Whereas a true owl can probably sit four or five hours and still be energized beyond that, right? And then the dove comes in occasionally When I need to have a higher listening skills, it comes in executive coaching, you know, change of your inner voice a little bit, the nurturing piece of it. So all that takes work for me. It's not natural. As an example.
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A
I love that example. Thank you. And one of the things I also am just curious about, are there any two birds that really just aren't going to work well together?
- [18:44]
B
So there are combinations. Most people, as I mentioned, have two dominant birds that will come very natural to them and then two secondary. So the opposites of yourself generally can create a little bit of conflict over time. A lot of times in relationships, you'll find that you've attracted the opposite of you. So as I mentioned, I'm an eagle parrot, and I don't think I hunted for my wife, Tina, but she is absolutely a dove owl, absolutely opposite of me. And at the beginning, she loved the characteristics of the eagle and parrot from her standpoint, and I loved the characteristics that she had around dove and eagle. But fast forward 10, 15 years into our marriage and now we're going to buy a car. And the eagle personality and the eagle parrot personality type, they want to go into maybe one dealership, make a decision, probably no haggling and get out, right? Just, we've got to buy a car. Let's just make a decision and move, move out and purchase it and get it home. And my wife, owl, dove, right. Very nurturing. Hesitant to, you know, even leave the house. But if we're going to go, she's going to take her spreadsheet with her, she's going to analyze all these rows of different types of cars that are available, and there's no way she's able to go into the first dealership and make a decision and leave. She has to go to three or four dealerships, right? So that's an example of a type of conflict that your question was getting at. So the eagle parrot and the dove owl often get into conflicting circumstances because the eagle parrot is all about fast and positivity and the dove owl is all about conservative listening skills. Let's slow down. Let's get our data and facts together. But there are pros and cons of both, right? So the dove owl may take a little bit longer to make a decision, so you give them a deadline that may actually create stress for them, Right. Because they need their time to analyze and come up with their options and make a decision. And the eagle parrot is totally fine with that. But if you give an eagle parrot a structured approach of here's the 10 things we're going to do and here's exactly how we need to do them. That's going to make an eagle parrot very. Life's very difficult. Got it.
- [20:54]
A
Okay. That is helpful, thank you. And again, I've not taken the assessment, but based on what you've shared and what I've read on my own, it's my sense that like you, I'm probably an eagle parrot and I am probably married. And I think it's probably an unusual combination to an eagle owl.
- [21:11]
B
Yeah.
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A
Which is probably a little bit of an unusual combination. But it's funny, like, because we're both eagles, the tack that has been, that's enabled us to have a. Well, one of the tacks. And Frank does his part. He's a whole human being in his own right. And friends, you know, I say this all the time. Frank does not listen to the podcast, so I can say whatever I want about him on the podcast, but he's still a whole human being in his own right. Part of what's made our 18 year relationship successful is about 14, 15 years ago, I decided that if Frank really wants something and I don't object strenuously, we're going to get exactly what he wants. So, for example, the car buying thing, Frank came to me, we bought, by the way, friends, we're an old school family. We're cash and carry on our cars and we save to buy them, but we also don't get one very often. So we have a seven year old car and we have a 22 year old vehicle. When we went to get that car the seven years ago, we saved the money we saved for three or four years we had planned for it. And Frank's like, this is really the car I want. And I scratched my head and I'm like, why is that? And he tells me why. And I still didn't understand it, but I'm like, okay, if that's the car you want, fine, that's the car we're going to go get. I did not object strenuously. To me, a car is a car is a car.
- [22:23]
B
Sure, yeah. That's a very eagle parrot thing to do. Right? You just want to move on. It's almost like a checklist, right. You get it off the task list and you move on to the next item. Not very. Both of you guys don't have the emotional piece of the duff, so you're not emotionally attached to the decision. It's like, okay, that's great, let's move on. Frank, obviously, with the owl piece of it probably did some analysis, did the numbers. You didn't have a huge need to potentially do that with your personality type. And so often what we do in teams is we look at what are the gaps. So when you guys, you guys don't have that natural dove. Right. And so sometimes you have to play that out. Right. So I've been in boards before where we've mapped everybody out and we find out that the board doesn't have eagle. Like that's a missing bird. So what does that mean to the team? That basically means that you're going to be spending a lot of time analyzing and a lot of time talking and, you know, sharing some emotions, but may not be able to get to that decision. Right. When you're missing that eagle, if you're missing the parrot, it'll be too serious of a team. You're not going to have that laughter, you're not going to have that fun, you're not going to have the enthusiasm and positivity. Right. If you're missing the parrot personality, if you're missing the dove, like in your couple, you're missing a little bit of that harmony, a little bit of the listening skills and the love and the kind of the hugging nature of the dove. Right. And you need to have that in all teams. And if you're missing the owl, you're missing the analysis, right? Yeah. You're going to make very quick decisions without a lot of analysis, there won't be a lot of processes. So when I work with boards, we look at how the board is currently mapped. It could be a, a 2 to 10 person board, it could be a 10 to 20 person board. Right. We look at where the majority of the types of birds that are on the mapping of this personality type across the team is, and we look at their strengths and these are good. These are things that you're really going to be able to do well in terms of whatever organization you're trying to support. But we look at the opportunities, what types of birds are you missing or where do you have the least amount of those skills in terms of traits from a personality standpoint and then take turns. Right. Just realize that we don't have that in our team. So we have to figure out, do we all need to pause and just think about this from a different lens before we move into a decision?
- [24:27]
A
Yeah. The other light bulb moment you just gave me, so thank you. Is also, you know that teams aren't static. So like, okay, if you realize you're missing an owl on your board, next Time you do board recruitment, you need to be thinking about, hey, let's go find us those analytic people, or if you're missing the dove and you're getting a lot of fights in your board meeting, you know, because you don't have that dove, who's there to kind of help create some peace, you need to go find that dove. Same thing with, like, the staff senior leadership team.
- [24:54]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Right. And so we have used a lot of these assessment types for different types of recruiting. For sure. They're an input. Right. So there's obviously a lot of other pieces we need to look at as well. One thing that you mentioned at the beginning, when you talked about yourself, Dolph, and you're kind of guessing your birds and you're saying, I can play kind of all four. Four birds. Absolutely. That's 100% correct. We all have the ability to play all four birds and depend, depending what circumstances they are. As I mentioned, there's two that are natural, two that take a little bit of work. When you think about the output of the assessment, there's actually three different kind of think about graphs, you know, graphical view of them. One of them is your natural self. Right. This is how you are in the privacy of your home. This is just how you are as a person. Right. The second one is adapted. So the adapted is the more mature you are and the more length you've had in the workforce or in the actual community, you've gotten feedback over time, and some of it's been great and some of it's opportunistic. That feedback has now altered a little bit about your natural self, and that is now your adapted self. Right. So when you think about your final view of who you are in your top two birds, it's a combination of you, you, when you're at home in your private setting, as well as you in your work setting, that has made you a little bit more adapted. Right. So even though I told you that I'm also an eagle, parrot, or, you know, parrot high eagle, when I started off my career in corporate, you know, ihg, I was very, very high eagle, extremely high. And I had no idea about these birds. I had no idea about anything like this. And I used to get the same type of feedback every single year saying, manish, you're doing great on these. These things, but your personality is coming out way too strong. You're a bulldozer. You don't bring the team along. You make too quick decisions. And I had no idea, like, what was going on. I just Think, okay, that's an area that I have to work on. And it was on my performance appraisals for many years, but I realized afterwards that's just who I am as a person.
- [26:52]
A
And of course, in your head, you also, at some point early on were probably thinking, my team's performing. What's the problem with that?
- [26:58]
B
Exactly. Right. Yeah. So then over time, I've realized that I have to tone down that extreme natural part of my ego. So at a home sett party at home, or, you know, with my friends, you're going to see a very extreme eagle come out. But in a work environment now, my eagle is still up there, but I've learned to kind of tone that, tone that down. And that's what's called the adapted style.
- [27:17]
A
Okay.
- [27:18]
B
And the combination of the adapted and your private. The way you are in your privacy of your home is the final style that we look at. And that's what we use to run our workshops.
- [27:27]
A
Okay. Very, very cool. So what do the workshops look like?
- [27:30]
B
Yeah, so they vary from, you know, anywhere from two hours to a day. And the two hours, I've done several of them. They're great. The only thing needed there is a little bit of a time commitment from the board. And so oftentimes they may have one or two retreats in a year that are more formal. We'll add the agenda item to that, or maybe it's the next board meeting. And they just realize after speaking with me that they really have not had a chance to invest any type of time or energy in terms of understanding each other. Oftentimes, boards are especially nonprofit boards. They're just an aggregation of great, almost like volunteers from very different backgrounds, different industries, different points of view, different inputs. And the first meeting, they just jump in and start solving problems, start looking at the agenda and validating the mission vision of the organization and prioritizing decisions. So they miss out that piece of understanding themselves. And how do we work better together to even meet that agenda in a much higher capacity and a higher level of intensity? So in a two hour example, we'll do the assessments in advance. I'll do a little bit of fun to understand the four birds. We'll give everybody their assessments out individually. They'll get a chance to read it, almost digest it in a way. We'll do a couple of fun activities, and if it's online, we'll do a virtual activity where I'll break everybody into a couple of different rooms. There's three or four activities that we can do depending on the timing. And each of them give an example of just how to organize a environment or make believe project or even purchase of a car, thinking about it from the four lenses of the bird. Right. So we do that workshop and then we do a debrief on that. And then I actually hand out the team report. And so the team report is like what we talked about maybe five, ten minutes ago, which shows every single person what their top dominant birds are. And then it gives a customized approach for every single person. You know, what do you do need in terms of your work environment? What do you need in terms of leadership? What are your motivators? Right. What are the things that create conflict for you? And then we go to the next team member, which could be a Rick or Kathy or a Pam. And every single person's needs, motivators and conflict contributors are all on that page. And the first thing that comes to everybody's mind right afterwards, like Manish, where were you, like two years ago? Because they realize that a lot of conflict that they've had in the past are related to what, what's here. And they just never had a chance to think about it or even realize it. And now we give them a solution to start working better together to manage some of that conflict out. If it's the eagle personality and they need to make a deadline, sure. Let's work on a collaboration between the owl personality and eagle to make sure we have some data and some analysis, but also meet the eagle's needs to make a deadline. Right. And that's how we end up with a, a solution around whatever topic that they're talking about.
- [30:26]
A
Yeah. I also love how memorable this model is. Yes. So you walk away and you think, okay, I'm an eagle owl and this is what it means. Or all right, I'm a parrot dove and this is how I interact with the world. It's a lot easier to remember than, I think, the typical personality assessment where it's like, I'm an ITJ or something like that.
- [30:45]
B
Yeah. Even the disc itself is very forgetful too. And I often ask a lot of people, you know, when is the last time you did a personality thing? Oh, yeah, I did that. Do you remember it? No, I don't remember. Do you use it every day? No, I don't. This is something you can use immediately. You can teach it to your neighbors. You can start identifying people in a shopping center. You can actually start identifying people even on LinkedIn. I'll give you an example. If you look at somebody's LinkedIn very quickly, if you see somebody with the number of bullet points, probably going to be an eagle. If you see somebody with a lot of paragraphs, probably not going to be an eagle at all. Probably will be more of an owl, right? If there's somebody who's in a lot more kind of social organizations or they've taken on roles where they've been a social chair, anything to do with that kind of social piece, probably more of a parrot. Another example of how you can identify a parrot is how many exclamation marks they use in any type of sentence. If you look at your outbox, you look at any sent folders or even your incoming folder, and you see these exclamation marks. Probably a parrot personality, right? And if you see a lot of loving words, kind of like the hug is coming to you a lot more, you know, the opening of the sentences are very harmonious. You know, that's going to be the dub. And so you can see that even by looking at somebody's LinkedIn, you can probably be in an elevator and you'll notice some mannerisms very quickly and see whether they're kind of an eagle person or an owl person or a dove parrot. And I've taught my kids how to do this. I've taught my wife and my son interviewed last week with one of the big four consultants last week, and the first thing the person did was very barely shook his hand, sat right down and got right into business. Eagle right away, right? So my son was able to realize, okay, so this guy needs bullets. He needs summarization. He doesn't want sentences and he doesn't want a lot of stories, right? So you can use this in everyday life without even somebody going through the personality assessment.
- [32:40]
A
I love the way you talk about that and I really like the fact that you're like, okay, my son has learned this and here's how I can easily do it. I also just have to share with you the exclamation point and parent thing. Maybe 10, 12 years ago, I had a board chair who took me aside and said, dolph, I just need to let you know that you use a lot of exclamation points in emails and actually said to me, if you just limit it to two per email, that would probably be more appropriate. And Millie, I appreciated the feedback. I did not know how much I used exclamation points. And I became way more aware of it because again, I have that little bit of that ego where I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, I now have a number, maximum of two, right?
- [33:21]
B
No, for sure. Yeah. Just the parrot wants to show that enthusiasm. And that is the one best way of showing it when you're writing up any type of written communication.
- [33:32]
A
I've said this on the podcast before. Very early in my career, close to 30 years ago, I had a supervisor who on one of my annual evaluations said that I was ruthlessly optimistic and did not mean that as a compliment. You know, like, this is something Dolph needs to work on. He's ruthlessly optimistic. Little too optimistic for us.
- [33:50]
B
Yeah. So again, part of the goal when you read the assessment is you're going to find some of the traits of your own personality that are. That can actually ruffle other people's feathers and that, you know, what could be considered even toxic positivity out there is a very strong, straight appearance. So we do need to learn that sometimes when we're in a serious environment, we need to tone down our enthusiasm a little bit. Tone down that, you know, not everything always has to be fun. And that's just an example that you, you came up with yourself. Right. So we have to. There's a balance and there's a learning. Now that you know yourself, you're a parrot, when you're in a genuine, natural self, you're gonna show it off fully. Right. But when you're in an environment where you, you need to hold back on some of that personality and start adjusting to the other ones, this is what this assessment and what this team building workshop does. It helps you customize your approach so that you're able to have a win win solution and not have this branding of toxic positivity.
- [34:48]
A
That is well taken. Thank you. I want to make sure that we've got time to play my favorite game that we do at the end of every episode, which is two truths and a lie. So if you'd like to share three so called facts about yourself, one of them's not going to be true, and I'm going to try to guess which one is not true.
- [35:05]
B
Okay, that's great. This is going to be fun, for sure. All right, so we'll start off with I got a wake up call from Samuel L. Jackson. I'll make these all kind of film related. All right, so I got a wake up call by Samuel L. Jackson. I was on a red carpet event with Tony Robbins, and then I actually was a secondary actor in kind of a sub actor in Superman iii.
- [35:34]
A
Okay. I believe you were on stage with Tony Robbins.
- [35:40]
B
That's correct.
- [35:42]
A
And I'm trying to remember. I Know, there's a lot of things that get filmed in Atlanta. And I'm trying to remember whether or not Superman III was filmed in metro Atlanta, but I'm gonna guess that it was. And I think that's true. So the thing that I think is not true is the wake up call from Samuel L. Jackson.
- [36:00]
B
All right. That is correct. Sor.
- [36:04]
A
Okay, so you have to tell me about this.
- [36:06]
B
Yeah, yeah. So Tony Robbins. I'm actually a executive producer, co executive producer for a movie that just came out in the theater this last summer. It's called City of Dreams. And the red carpet was actually took place in Hollywood. So my wife and I got a chance to go out there. And Tony Robbins was our main facilitator and spokesperson for the event. And he got behind the movie about a month before the movie launched and really helped publicize it quite a bit. It is a docudra, the illegal trafficking of children. Very serious topic, but illegal trafficking of children from Mexico to Los Angeles, specifically United States, for underage labor. So that's what the movie is about. It's on Amazon prime right now. It'll move into Hulu. So that's the story there. Samuel L. Jackson. I actually was on a first class flight with him from Atlanta to la and we started chatting and I dozed off to sleep. And then he woke me up and said, hey, Manish, do you want your breakfast? And that was my wake up call from him. And then Superman, the series Superman and Christopher Reeve, you know, a big part of my childhood. So a huge fan. But I was not in those movies.
- [37:19]
A
So that it's funny when I was thinking wake up call, I was thinking phone. I was not thinking, okay, I kind of stretched it a bit. I was not thinking on Delta 1,
- [37:29]
B
there's the parrot in me for sure. I love that.
- [37:31]
A
I love that. I love that. I also will share with you, I had seen that you were the executive producer of that film and doing research for you. And this is where I'm not an owl because I should have clicked on it and watched more of that film because then I'd be like, oh, yeah, that's 100%. Well, Manish, thank you so much for joining us today. And I always want to make sure that my friends who listen know how to reach out to you. And so friends, the first thing you can visit Manisha's website, that's epyxteambuilding.com Epyx is spelled E P Y X epyxteambuilding.com and if you're interested in taking your team to the next level of trust. The process he described, which is the assessment and then a workshop is something that he does and he shared with me what the costs are. It is remarkably affordable. So I would strongly encourage you to go to epicsteambuilding.com and reach out to to Manish. And one of the things that I think Manish may have mentioned, but just to drive home the point, that workshop could be as short as two hours. So if you're thinking, oh, I can't get my board together for a full day meeting or my senior leadership team on staff can't afford half a day, this could be two hours, this could be eight to 10 or four to six, and most people can fit that in. So once again, please make sure you reach out to Aneesh if you're finding that your teams are not operating as effectively and smoothly as you'd like for them to.
- [38:57]
B
Thank you for having me, Dolph. This is wonderful.
- [38:59]
A
Hey Manish, thanks so much for being here. I'm glad you have been. And friends, if you've liked this episode, there are two more that you're going to get a lot out of. The first is episode 268, the Secret to Building a Rockstar Leadership Team with Alison Mayfield. Allison was the Executive Director at the Humane Society of Northeast Georgia when I was doing their strategic planning project. And honestly, she has the strongest staff leadership team I have ever seen. So if you want to learn how she built it, make sure you download and listen to that episode. The second episode you might get a lot out of is Empower your team Unleashing Leadership Potential with Luis Velazquez and Kristin Gleitzman. That, my friends, is our episode for this week. I hope that you have gained some insight to help you and your nonprofit thrive. And you know, I really don't really want to do this every episode, but the lawyers do make me do it. And I'm married to one of those lawyers, by the way, that makes me do it. I'm not an accountant. I'm also not an attorney and neither I nor the consulting practice provide tax legal or accounting advice. Friends, if you listen this far, you already know what that means. That means you should not rely on this podcast for tax legal accounting advice. And you've heard me say this before too. You should not rely on any podcast for tax legal and accounting advice.
- [40:22]
B
Please.
- [40:22]
A
If that is what you need, find a licensed qualified professional in your area. And if you're not sure what type of professional or what specialty you might need, you can reach out to me. I'm happy to help you figure that out.