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Successful Nonprofits Podcast
The Lifecycle of an Executive Director with Claudius Hildebrand
00:38:43
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- [00:00]
A
When you look at the most successful CEOs, the hundred most successful CEOs in the 21st century, you find that the most successful are either sprinters or they're marathoners. The sprinters are those that have been leading an organization for five or six years and no longer, and the marathoners are those who've been leading for 10 years now. Why is that? Because they understand what they can achieve in a certain frame of time. If you want to change an organization and bring big culture change around within a five year period, well, that's an uphill battle. But you can do that. If you are planning, you know, if you're playing the long game and you're doing this for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, you can fundamentally change organizations. If you're in it over a five or six year period, you can make an organization more agile. You can, you can, you can increase the speed in those organizations. You can make them more efficient. Understanding what, what your ideal timeline is, putting your energy against it, the way you set up your team, the way you set up your processes is incredible. Is an incredibly powerful device for a CEO to really tap into their full potential.
- [01:14]
B
Hey friend, this is Dolph and I am glad you are here for the relaunch of the Successful Nonprofits Podcast. Relaunch week includes three brand new episodes with one being released each day on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. And while the podcast back catalog has more than 300 episodes for you to download and learn from, this week's episodes and all future episodes will focus on helping nonprofit chief executives new navigate the complexities of their work. And now here is the episode you downloaded. Welcome to the Successful Nonprofits Podcast. I'm your host, Dolph Goldenberg and friends. Let me tell you about today's episode. If I shared with you that your biggest leadership challenge isn't right now, but a few years from now. And what might predict your biggest leadership challenge is not what's happening in the world or in your organization, but how long you've been there. What would you think? Well, that's why I asked Claudius Hildebrand to come on to the podcast. Claudius is the co author of CEO Life Cycle. And I'm going to tell you up front, he. He knows a thing or two about leadership transitions. As a consultant at Spencer Stewart, he advises organizations on CEO succession, board governance and leadership effectiveness. And as the author, or I should say co author of CEO Lifecycle, he has distilled years of research into a framework that every single nonprofit leader needs to know and friend. You know that I love to bring you business books and authors of business books with information that you're going to be able to use in your work as a nonprofit chief executive. And this is no exception. So we are going to dive into at least two of the five stages of a CEO's tenure, and the two critical ones I'm hoping we're going to focus on will be the launch stage, which is when you step into the leadership role, and then the reinvention stage, when you realize that what's made you a success as a CEO will not result in your next series of successes. So, friend, if you're wondering how to not just survive, but to thrive as a nonprofit leader, this is the episode for you. Claudius, welcome to the podcast.
- [04:00]
A
Wonderful being with you here, Dulce.
- [04:02]
B
I am so glad you were here. I loved your book as I shared with you a couple days ago when we spoke and again this morning. I've read it, I've listened to it twice. It is such a good read. And every time I've digested the book, I've taken something else away from it
- [04:18]
A
that means the world to me.
- [04:20]
B
I'm going to start off with kind of a softball question. Why'd you write this book? What inspired you?
- [04:27]
A
That's a great question, right? There's so much written about leadership. Why another book? Well, let me first start with the fact that leadership matters more than ever. It's tumultuous times, and when you look at the full body of work, you find a lot has been written based on individuals experience and the great advice that they pass on. And that is important, that is important information. But what we felt was missing was a playbook that goes beyond the individual experience and really paints the picture of what how leadership unfolds over time, the evolution of leaders. And what we wanted to bring to the table is a substantive, rigorously researched view on what all that means. Because believe it or not, there's a lot of myth that surround leaders that have been created over time and time again. And piercing through those myths and questioning conventional wisdom and passing facts from fiction really is at the core of why we wrote the book.
- [05:30]
B
But before we get into the heart of the book, I'd love for us to talk about some things that are in the preface and also the appendix. And I know this means I'm a nerd, but I'm an appendix reader. And so I'd love for us to talk about what research you did, because I know this was some very rigorous research that went into building what you
- [05:50]
A
know to create this book, it really is unprecedented. Unprecedented research. What we've done over the last six years is we studied the performance patterns of every CEO who's been running a public company in the 21st century. But we didn't want to stop there. We also wanted to overlay the deep and rich experience of individuals who are traversing their journey. What we found through the data was a framework of growth, a series of headwinds and tailwinds that leaders experience. But at the same time, the dilemma that you're facing when you're looking at big data is you're finding an average. But here at Spencer Stewart, we're in the business of identifying outliers and helping them to take a high performing game to an even higher level. So what we were focusing on is looking at some of those phenomenal leaders that are out there. Leaders like Hubert Jolie at Best Buy, Chris Nassetta at Hilton, Indra Nooy at Pepsi, over a hundred of them. And hearing their firsthand account of what it meant to navigate the different stages of their life cycle as they're progressing in the career. Because the one thing that we found was leaders evolve and so do their challenges. And the ability to look around corners is really what sets you apart. Oftentimes, your inner game might be your biggest enemy.
- [07:08]
B
Absolutely. And I want to make sure I say this because, friends, I know Claudius just mentioned Fortune 500 CEOs. Essentially, I found that almost everything you were talking about for CEOs in the for profit sector really applies to those in the nonprofit sector, too. Nonprofit CEOs have boards, they have external stakeholders, they have internal stakeholders. It's a really similar life cycle.
- [07:31]
A
It's a great point, Dolph. And I want to thank you for raising that, because this is a book about the evolution of leaders. We just happen to be studying S&P 500 CEOs. But that doesn't mean that any one of us in a leadership position is not facing similar stages about a launch into a new position, the need to recalibrate, how to reinvent oneself and their teams over time, being aware of complacency, and eventually leaving the position that we've been holding in a better place and leaving a good legacy. So the stages applied throughout.
- [08:07]
B
Claudius, I'm hoping you can briefly walk us through all five stages of the CEO life cycle, even though I know we're not going to have time to talk about in depth more than one or two.
- [08:20]
A
So before I do that, let me just tell you, at the outset of our research, we were wondering how does performance actually evolve over time? And we turned to over a hundred board directors, people who've been in the board seat of multiple organizations, chairs, nongov chairs. And I asked them that precise question. And they picked, they painted a picture of continuous improvement. Every year begets better, begets better, begets better. Until at some point the CEO plateaus in their performance. And that's the moment when a board will change to a new CEO. That picture, quite frankly, seemed a little too rosy because many of us will have had that experience that not everything in life is as linear as we want it, as we want to believe it. And so what we found in the data as we dug in was this very different picture. A series of headwinds and tailwinds. The first one, as leaders ascend into the role, is the launch stage. This is the moment when you're drinking from the fire hose, when you're trying to come to grips with the organization. There's a lot of learning happening in that moment and a lot of optimism that Buyo is a leader because everyone wants that person to succeed. It's followed by a calibration stage. Optimism sometimes can turn into hubris. At some point there's a moment when a bubble bursts. And in fact, many of the leaders who had what we call the honeymoon period will find that they're running into a sophomore slump in that second year where some of those gains are being given up. What's so important for leaders is to traverse that stage and enter as they go into the mid tenure years, the reinvention period. The reinvention is so important because this is where they're setting the long term trajectory for the organization. Now what's difficult about it is contrary to any other moment in your life when outside event may have forced you to reinvent, this is a moment where you have to reinvent in place. And reading those signals is really difficult. If leaders don't manage to find that moment, they run a high risk of entering what we call the complacency trap. The job is getting old. The team might be engaging in more group think. The board may be leaning a little bit back, further back than they should. And there are. Ironically, in the most successful companies, the risk of complacency is even higher. It's hard to change a winning game. As leaders traverse those stages, increasingly they're beginning to be faced with the concept of legacy. How do you keep one foot on the gas and keep the organization moving as fast as it can in this ever faster changing world, but also begin to disentangle oneself. And that's a really critical stage. And often overlooked leaders who have been in a role for a decade plus have been spending days and nights in that role. Their identity, their sense of self becomes disentangled with the role that they're filling. And disentangling those two is a really complex journey. So how do you continue to move the organization forward to serve it, but also set it up in a way that the legacy will be longer lasting than the individual themselves is a complex process that we often help in succession planning as well. So these are the five stages.
- [11:46]
B
What I loved about those stages is when I overlaid those stages with my own two experiences as a nonprofit chief executive. And when I think about a lot of other chief executives, I saw so many similarities. Claudius, in the nonprofit sector, there are a couple reliable points in time when we see a lot of executive directors exit their position, typically 18 to 24 months, and I'm like, oh, I get it, your launch stage or honeymoon stage is ending. And now you're going to your calibration phase and you're like, this feels hard. Or other people are going, yeah, maybe this is not the right person. Then we also often see it at like five or six years. And that's when people are hitting that plateau and potentially even entering the complacency trap. And Claudius, I actually saw that the first time I was chief executive. I left after about seven years. And I remember starting to feel bored. And when I was reading your book, I thought to myself, oh, that was my failure to reinvent myself. That was not boredom with the organization. I failed to reinvent myself as a leader. And that's why I was bored. It was like this light bulb moment where I wish I could have gone back almost 20 years and counseled myself differently. But then the other thing that in the sector we often see is those organizations that have had an executive director for 10, 12, 14 years are the ones that have made the most progress and had the most growth and the greatest impact over that period of time. So it's interesting because when I thought about how this overlays in the nonprofit sector, I saw it.
- [13:13]
A
It's so great that you're mentioning this, Dolph. And I think the underlying theme that you're raising here is this notion of time. And there's many things, there's many reasons why the CEO role is different from other roles, but one of the differentiating factors is this is pretty much an open ended role if you're willing to do it. And as long as you're successful. And as long as you're having the trust of your stakeholders. But that brings some meaningful questions with it. I mean, most of us, when we went through our professional life, you're successful, you get a promotion every other year, and you're moving on, right? This external reinvention is being put on you. And now you're suddenly faced with a role where you could be here for three years, you could be here for 25 years if you have to trust and if you got the energy, thinking not enough. Boards and CEOs are thinking about the end and with the end in mind, planning back what all of that means. It's important to have a why, it's important to have a vision, but you also have to have a roadmap along which you want to achieve certain goals when you want to plan for those milestones. And that is, that is a particularly important element to combat the complacency in your organization. But also keeping yourself fresh and keeping your, your energy high, because these are taxing jobs, weeks and months on the road, sleep, lack of sleep, constant demands on, on, on you. I mean, these are, these are doing this over periods of, you know, long periods of time. It's an incredible drain.
- [14:40]
B
And I'll share with you, I think that is even intensified for most nonprofit chief executives. You know, the vast majority of nonprofit chief executives are leading organizations with three to maybe 15 or. And so unlike at an S&P 500 organization, the chief executive often does not have two or three administrative assistants and does not have a CFO and a cmo. And they don't, they don't have that level of support. And so I actually think, like, that's even more intensified in the nonprofit sector.
- [15:10]
A
What we find in the absence of, you know, in the absence of clear timeline, EOs and boards typically grasp for something. Well, the average tenure that is out there is a good number to anchor on or the magic number 10. Right. It's a classic human bias. Why 10? Why not 11? Why not 8? But what we found in our work is when CEOs are intentionally thinking with time in their mind, they actually are more successful at the job. So let me give you this example. The average tenure in the s and P500 typically hovers around nine years. The median tenure around seven years. But when you look at the most successful CEOs, the 100 most successful CEOs in the 21st century, you find that the most successful are either sprinters or they're marathoners. The sprinters are those that have been leading an organization for five or six years and no longer. And the marathoners are those who've been leading for 10 years plus. Now, why is that? Because they understand what they can achieve in a certain frame of time and they'll apply their skills differently. If you want to change an organization and bring big culture change around within a five year period, well, that's an uphill battle. But you can do that if you are planning, you know, if you're playing the long game and you're doing this for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, you can fundamentally change organizations. If you're in it over a five or six year period, you can make an organization more agile, you can increase the speed in those organizations, you can make them more efficient. So understanding what your ideal timeline is, putting your energy against it, the way you set up your team, the way you set up your processes is incredible. It's an incredibly powerful device for a CEO to really tap into their full potential.
- [16:58]
B
I love the way you lay that out. And one of the things I hear you say is the way you set up your team at a super small organization. What are some ways that a chief executive can set up their team to really move the needle around culture?
- [17:13]
A
Well, first of all, in my line of business, we believe leadership is the biggest lever for value creation. And so you want to start with your team and you want to get your top players onto your team early. And we see this and it's a difficult task. Right. Think about it as an, as an external leader who's coming into an organization, you suddenly have to make a decision on who are on who are now on your team. And it sounds easy in theory, but this is like playing Powerball. How can you make a decision in a matter of weeks on a set of people and make sure that you write on each and every one of them for an internal candidate, it's, it's different, it's a different ballgame overnight. Your relationship with every single one of them has changed. They might not be coming to you in the way they did yesterday anymore. And so how you lean into that and how you lead them differently is incredibly important. I think the number one, the number one mistake that we see many leaders do is waiting on that team decision too long. Because it is. Once you have the right team in place, you can move your strategy forward in the right direction. And every year that you're waiting and every year that you're prolonging that process and bringing yet another person on, another person on, slows down your ability to form a cohesive team unit that can move in the right direction with the pace that you ultimately want them to be moving in.
- [18:34]
B
That really speaks to what I see so often. I'll see nonprofit chief executives who will say, I don't want to make any significant changes until after my first 12 or 18 months. And I'm kind of like, well, that's when your honeymoon's over. That's when people are looking at you and saying, why haven't you done more?
- [18:50]
A
Right, exactly. Those 12 to 18 months, you might feel that you have more urgent things on your mind. But the tricky piece about the honeymoon period is when you're stepping into a new role. Everything feels important and urgent. Over time, you can calibrate your judgment, what is important and what is urgent. And what many leaders then realize is that the important element of changing the team has been, has been overlooked and has been sacrificed for other activities. And by the way, Dolph, can I, can I bring up another team that is so important for a CEO to have in their mind? Because CEOs really play on two teams. They're the leader of the executive team and they're a player in the boardroom.
- [19:31]
B
Yeah.
- [19:31]
A
And that is a different, that's a different game. You're not leading with authority in your executive team. You can exert authority if you choose to. It may not always be the right move, but sometimes, at least you have that tool in your toolkit, the boardroom. You're leading through influence and you're inheriting a team. And there's many questions about you in that room. And you don't know if you want that race by a mile or by a minute. So the other big mistake that we see new CEOs make often is not investing enough time with their directors early on to really do the discovery work, where the organization is going and what the board has in mind. And that can come back to bite you when you need the protection from the board in later stages.
- [20:12]
B
I have a couple questions I want to ask about that. From what you see, what does that discovery work with your board look like?
- [20:21]
A
Well, you have a wonderful window in the early days where you can ask any question because you don't know you can find out about. First of all, go to meet your directors on their home turf and do that in a one on one setting. Don't try to save time by bringing two together because the fundamental human psychology changes when you're having a conversation one on one or in a group and you can ask questions about what is were topics that have been discussed in the boardroom. Are there factions in the board? Not every board is moving in the same harmonious process as is presented on the outside. You, as a new member of that board need to be finding out about what those landmines are and where there's points of agreement in that board. So spending time with your directors is critical. The other element I would say is some of your board directors will want to be hands on with you. Some of the board directors will want to be left alone. Again, the situational leadership, when to rely on whom and overcoming your own, maybe at times insecurities that these people could make a judgment about your job, but rather seeing them as advisors and learning their expertise that you can tap in. Those are some critical elements to get right in the early days.
- [21:37]
B
Yeah. I'll share with you one of the things I do. I do interim executive director or interim chief executive engagements and I'm always amazed. In my first month, I always want to meet with literally all of the board members one on one, even though I'm a temp. And, and so often board members will say to me, you were the first time a chief executive has sat down one on one with me ever. And, and they've been on the board for four years or five years. And I'm like, wow, how can that be?
- [22:02]
A
It's incredible. Yes. And it's, it seems like, yeah, it seems like obvious advice, but sometimes the obvious is important to, to point out. Right. I think the other risk there is some of this has been written up. Right. So. So new leaders have a bit of a checklist that they can work through the hundred days right here, all the activities that you're doing. It's important to keep in mind that you're not treating that as a checklist, like check done this that person. But really engage and be in listening mode and keep on learning and keep engaging in that discovery.
- [22:35]
B
I'll share with you. There's another book that came out six or seven years ago. It's called the CEO Next Door by Kim Po. And in the second half of that book, she has a chapter called Dancing with Titans. And she literally has like, hey, first time you meet with your board, with individual board members, here are the five questions you need to ask them. I literally just take that page and I ask the board members those five questions and I have a great, typically 60 to 90 minute conversation with each one.
- [23:02]
A
That's why we're writing these books. Right. To provide you roadmaps where the book you just mentioned provides you a, a framework how you can lead an organization. What we're doing in the lifecycle of a CEO is providing a roadmap to anticipate the stages that you will be encountering, to look around corners and to plan for them accordingly, rather than being hit in the face by them.
- [23:24]
B
Yeah.
- [23:25]
A
Doesn't mean that everything's going to happen to you. Exactly right. But just like in our lives, we're more likely to encounter certain challenges when we're in our 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and so on. And the same with the same thing in mind, we wanted to provide that, that roadmap for leaders as well so that they can prepare.
- [23:45]
B
There's one other board related question I wanted to ask you about for newer chief executives in their launch, in their launch stage, how does the chief executive handle it when the former chief executive says, oh, well, I'm going to stick around and I'm going to be on the board?
- [24:02]
A
Yeah, it's a great question. It's becoming increasingly, it's becoming a trend. So what's interesting, when you look at the data, 20 years ago, you saw most of the future CEO sat on their boards before they became a CEO and that gave them board experience. Right. That has gone into the single digits these days. But what you've seen in the last couple of years is a trend that boards want to ensure the continuity. They realize this is a high stakes transition. They want to put the scaffolding around. And many of them choose to put an executive chair in place in those early days. The big majority of those executive chairs are the outgoing CEOs. Now, it sounds great in theory and it can work phenomenally. And I've seen examples where it works phenomenally. But all too often a change at the helm of an organization is also an opportunity to bring about broader changes. And what you're experiencing in a boardroom where the outgoing CEO is still sitting in is that oftentimes when the new CEO is making a suggestion, all the heads will turn to the predecessor and try to read their facial language, their body language, and that is impeding change. Back to the same example you mentioned earlier about teams suddenly a 12 month in and you lost that honeymoon stage where you had the permission to drive change. Because what's also true is in moments of transitions, organizations are malleable. That's when you can really shape. That's when you can set a new direction. The longer someone is in the role, the more we become fixed and static again.
- [25:48]
B
Yeah, I'll share with you. And I say this to boards all the time. I've Been a permanent executive director twice. And at this point, I've done, like, eight or nine interim CEO engagements. And my most important role as former chief executive is to be gone and supportive. And what I mean by that is, like, the chief executive can always call me up and have a conversation. Happy to do that. But otherwise, anyone calls me up, I'm like, I really support this new person. I know they're doing great stuff. Thanks for calling.
- [26:16]
A
Yeah, yeah. But you know what, Dolph, as I'm listening to you, there's. There's a great role model in you here as well, because it really sounds like you found what you're fantastic at, which is being an interim CEO. Right? Being that, you know, being the glue that keeps the organization together until the next leader steps in. And I think there's a lesson in that for every leader. Like, understand what you're good at. I've talked. I've talked to a great many CEOs who understand. Well, my game is I'm going to be the transformation CEO. I'm going to do this for no longer than three years. I'm going to do it in a particular sector of the industry. I'm looking for a particular type of company that I can do this. And when I do this, I'm highly successful. And then there's others who know I'm a big transformer, and I can. I can get companies into a whole different place. And I'm playing this for the long term. So understanding what your game is and how to be good at it is a first step of really excelling it and orienting where your time goes, where your energy goes, where your priorities lie.
- [27:18]
B
I love that you said that. And can we use that to pivot, to talk about reinvention?
- [27:22]
A
Let's pivot.
- [27:23]
B
All right, so let's have a little bit of a conversation. And by the way, I actually wrote this down. This is almost a quote from your book. I just changed the word business to organization. But this is a quote from your book I wrote down. At some point during every CEO's tenure, you have to admit that what you've been doing is no longer going to make your organization a success. Claudius, why is this such a hard stage for leaders?
- [27:52]
A
It's a hard stage for a couple of reasons. You know, let me start out with one quote from the book. It's. It's much easier to call someone else's baby ugly.
- [28:01]
B
Yeah.
- [28:01]
A
It's hard for all of us, let me say, for many of us to look into the mirror and say, my decision back then was wrong, or my decision back then may have been the right one, but the context has changed and how to face yourself. I think that that's a, that's a big piece of it. So let's start with, you know, the self here, why that is so difficult. The next piece is, well, someone said that in our interviews is you come in, you have all the ideas, you went through all of your ideas, you evaluated them, you picked the good one, and now you have to come up with a whole set of new ideas. Again, that's difficult. All the good ideas that you had, you already looked at. And Ann Hackett, who we talked to, was very insightful around this from a board perspective, because the world is changing faster and faster, and you need to find a CEO who's able to change faster than the world is changing. That is, that is difficult. Right? And let alone, we're not even talking yet about bringing your team along, building the buy in, in a, in a boardroom with your team, where everyone feels like, hey, this is a winning strategy. Why should we change now? Well, you have to change now. You have to begin the step change now so that two years, three years from now, you will be in a position that when the old strategic cycle ends, you're already feeling the draft of the new one. Yeah, that's difficult.
- [29:34]
B
Yeah.
- [29:35]
A
This innovator's dilemma.
- [29:36]
B
Yeah. Oh, I like that. The innovator's dilemma. So, so if I, someone, if someone is listening is a nonprofit executive director and they might be asking themselves, what are the, what are the signs? I need to reinvent myself.
- [29:48]
A
Look at the context around you, look at your leadership team and look at the board and check yourself. If the conditions based on which you build your strategy are still intact, then ask yourself, are you still the right one for this organization to be leading forward? I was just coming back from the Netherlands and I heard about this big cultural norm that apparently every four years, boards and CEOs get together and ask themselves if the person is still the right one for the job. Asking yourself that question in this moment leads to an incredible inquiry not only about, do you want to hold the role and do you have the skills to lead in that, in that context, but also, do you have the energy to go the next leg of the journey and how, you know, how willing are you to commit to that next leg of the journey? Because if you're sensing that you're not having the energy, it may be a good decision. Back to the sprint and marathon theme to think about how to prepare the Stage for the next leader.
- [30:56]
B
I love that. And the question that comes to my mind, and it's funny, I've often asked this question with boards. Shame on me. I've not asked this question with executive directors or chief executives. I've often asked the question of a board. What will the organization need from you as a board in three years? And it's kind of a similar question that the chief executive just has to ask themselves. What will I need to be able to bring in three years for this organization to still succeed?
- [31:20]
A
That's right, because the organization. You never step into the same river twice. Right. But you see, the river still looks like the river and it's the same. The same is true for organizations, organizations that have. That CEOs took over at the beginning of their tenure, maybe in a very different spot five years or 10 years from now, and the context around them has changed.
- [31:42]
B
So, Claudius, you said you never step into the same river twice. I'm a hiker, a backpacker, a trekker. I've kind of done it all over the world. I've also done it in my own backyard where we live. About an hour and a half from where we live, there's this great trail. I'm going somewhere with this. Then we're going to pivot to two truths and a lie. But there's this great trail called Jack's River Trail. And you've got to. And you're backpacking, you know, you've got 10 on you and all that. And you've got to cross the river, like wading through the river multiple times. There's like 20 different times you cross. That crossing is called a ford. And there are some places I'm short. I'm like 5 foot 2 inches tall. There's some places on the river where it'll come up to my belly button. Well, you know, when you said you've never crossed the same river twice, I thought about last fall. I was crossing a place that I've probably crossed five times with a backpack on. And there had been a lot of rain in the prior week. And I was used to be able to walk across that river. And it was over my head. I was like. I was like, okay, I think I've got it. Suddenly it's up to my neck. And the next thing I know, I'm like, shoot, I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble.
- [32:47]
A
And suddenly you reinvented yourself and you started swimming.
- [32:50]
B
Yep, exactly. So it's literally what I thought when you said that. Well, so that's a great Pivot. And I have to share with you, Claudius, I could continue to talk about this for like 20, 30, 40 minutes, but I want to be respectful of your time and also our listeners time. And so I want us to make sure we pivot to two truths and a lie. So I'm hoping you're going to share with me 3 so called facts yourself, and I'm going to try to figure out which one is not true.
- [33:14]
A
Okay. So you probably saw on my resume that I speak a lot of languages and I learned all those languages purely as an excuse to travel. And the second one is that on one of those travels, I met the Karmapa, who is the oldest of the Tibetan incarnated lineages, and I had an audience with him. And on another one of those trips, I was invited to an audience with the Pope. And so which of these are my truth?
- [33:48]
B
Okay, I believe you did meet with Karmapa. The thing I think is not the truth is I don't think that all of the languages you learned, except the ones you. The one or one that you learned as a child, you learned just solely to travel. So I'm going to guess that one's not the truth.
- [34:07]
A
You unfortunately wrong. I never met the Pope. I'm still waiting for it.
- [34:10]
B
Okay, I'm wrong.
- [34:12]
A
So, okay, you're missing, like, you're missing a person who's driven by fun and curiosity and exploration. I figured out early in my life that languages are going to be the perfect excuse for my teachers, for my parents, for everyone to get to a different country and expose myself to different cultures. And, and, and so it's been. And I spent a lot of time in France and in England and in later years in China. I shouldn't be spilling my beans here. And, and I hope my, my parents and teachers are not listening and feeling duped now many years later.
- [34:45]
B
So you're gonna have to tell us about the audience.
- [34:48]
A
You did have the audience. Okay. So this was incredible. On one of the trips I was in, I was in northern India and I was just in a, in a tea shop with my backpack. Was on a trip for, for seven months at the time. And a fellow traveler walked in and said, we've just been granted an audience with a kamapa. And I didn't at the time not even know exactly where they stand in this hall. Yeah. In the whole lineage and hierarchy. And so, but we have to get on a, in a cab right now and we have to go there. And so we were in a cab for half an hour to travel through the Mountains to get to, to the place. And we get it, we get to the gate and we're about to in and they're asking us, where's your passport? Oops. So we did the whole trip back and we did the, you know, we returned and what took half an hour in the cab the first time. Took like 20 minutes to go back and forth. We were paying the cab driver extra and made it just in time to sit down with him. Yeah, it was, was an incredible experience to be sitting there with others and listening and meditating together and sharing a couple of special moments, one with him. He was coming around and spending time with everyone was. Yeah. Was very touching. Many decades after, I'm still, I'm still thinking about those moments and looking in those eyes.
- [36:04]
B
Wow. So, Claudius, that's one of the things I love about travel. Those random moments where you're somewhere and you run into someone else and you have this opportunity, something that you never thought you would have done at any point in your life. Yeah.
- [36:18]
A
Yeah.
- [36:19]
B
Wow.
- [36:19]
A
You gotta, there's a big leadership lesson in there as well, right? Like you gotta recognize opportunities and you gotta grab them and you gotta, you gotta follow them.
- [36:27]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. I love that. Well, Claudius, thank you so much for joining us. I had some light bulb moments that were really useful for me. Like for example, I need to start asking executive directors, hey, what does your organization need from you in three years and how are you going to get yourself there? Thank you. So this has been a really useful conversation for me and I know my friends who listen are having the same experience. Thank you.
- [36:48]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [36:49]
B
Dolph and friends, you know, there are so many different ways I'm going to ask that you connect with Claudius Hildebrand. The first is that his LinkedIn profile and you know, LinkedIn profiles are kind of long, so I'm going to put it in the show notes. But when you go to that profile, you can subscribe to his LinkedIn newsletter which is called Same thing as the book Life Cycle of a CEO. I have subscribed. It's weekly. I strongly encourage you to subscribe. Second, you can go to his consulting firm's website. That's Spencer stewart.com and just so you know, once again, Claudius advises organization on leadership transitions. Make sure you check out SpencerStewart.com there's also some interesting information at Spencer Stewart that you are going to find useful. And then third, I'd like for you to go to bookshop.org to buy a copy of Claudius book. By the way, I'm going to link to Life cycle of a CEO@bookshop.org in the show Notes. I have reached a point where I've actually canceled my prime membership. I've decided billionaires have enough money and I'm not buying from them anymore, even if it costs me a little more money. So anyway, please make sure you pick up a copy of that book. Claudius, Once again, thank you for coming on.
- [38:03]
A
Thank you, Tel. It was a real pleasure.
- [38:06]
B
All right, friends, if you found this episode useful, there are two resources I want you to check out. One is actually a blog post that I wrote back in 2020, which is called the Unintentional Interim Executive Director and it's about those folks that essentially are hired and they never make it out of their launch phase and why they became that unintentional interim. The second go on the Wayback Machine. The episode right now that you're listening to is like episode 360 something. So go to episode 74 and hear Kim Powell talk about her book, the CEO Next Door. That, my friends, is our show for the week. I hope that you have gained some insight to help you and your nonprofit thrive. And you know I would not do this, but the lawyers really do make me do it. And so I'm going to tell you the disclaimer. I'm not an accountant. I'm also not an attorney and neither I nor the consulting practice provide tax, legal or accounting advice. We didn't even touch on tax, legal or accounting advice, but the lawyers still make me say this. This podcast is for informational purposes only. And I also often tell you this. Don't rely on podcasts or blogs for tax, legal or accounting advice. If that's what you need. Please find a licensed qualified professional in your area and get the counsel that you need.