← Successful Nonprofits Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the Successful Nonprofits podcast. I'm your host, Dolph Goldenberg and friends. In this episode today, we're going to be talking with Kurt Ellis about offering world class benefits. And when I say world class benefits, I mean benefits that even for profit companies would be jealous of, government employees would be jealous of. In fact, just to tease you a little bit, I'm going to really quickly list the benefits I was able to find out about for Kurt Ellis's organization, which is FoodCorp. Now, obviously they provide health insurance and vision, dental, accidental death, disability life, and a flexible spending account. Although flexible spending account is pretty, pretty unusual in the nonprofit sector. They also have a 401k match up to $3,000, five weeks of accrued time off, 12 federal holidays and your birthday. By the way, that's a conjunction and not the conjunction or two week winter break. You could think of that as a rest period, a sabbatical of four weeks after you've worked there only three years, half day on Fridays. 6. Sixteen weeks paid parental leave. Let me repeat that word. Paid 16 weeks paid parental leave, $7,500 towards family planning, things like adoption, surrogacy, contraceptives, abortion, travel, et cetera, and a $500 annual professional development stipend. And I wanted to list all of those out because if you and your organization are not at that point where you literally have the type of benefits that people would quit one job just to get to come and work, you've got to listen to this episode. Now let me tell you a little bit about Kurt. Kurt is a parent and a leader in the movement to ensure that all children experience food justice and education equity. And by the way, I also just have to share with you this point. I'm going to almost read from the bio that he sent over because I love it that much. Kurt pursues this vision as a co founder and co CEO of FoodCorp, a national nonprofit that partners with schools and communities to use food as a tool to advance student health, education and belonging. This is the part I love. Racial justice is an imperative at FoodCorp. And as a white man working in the white dominant social enterprise and nonprofit space, Curt is committed to the ongoing personal, organizational and societal work of antiracism. I rarely see that in someone's bio and it was worth reading verbatim. Prior to starting at FoodCorps, Kurt helped reframe public debate around the farm bill as a food bill. And he did this when he created the Peabody winning documentary King Corn. Curt is a graduate of Yale and has done so much in the nonprofit space and also in the food center security space. Hey, Kurt. Welcome to the podcast.
- [03:00]
B
So great to be here, Dolph. Thanks for having me.
- [03:02]
A
I'll share with you, Kurt. I almost never spill all the candy in the lobby at the start of a podcast episode. But like those bullet points on your benefits, and I probably missed some things, you don't see those kind of benefits anywhere else.
- [03:15]
B
Well, you make it sound like we don't do any work around here. But I will tell you, the reason the benefits look the way they do is because people at FoodCorps are incredibly committed to this mission. And by taking care of our people, we're able to attract really talented folks and keep them at the table for this work. Recognizing social justice work is exhausting. Nonprofit work is hard. Changing entrenched systems, it's hard. We're trying to connect 50 million kids to hands on food education and free nourishing meals in school. That is hard work. And people deserve a little time off to recharge. They deserve to be able to take care of their health and well being and that of their loved ones. And so we've decided it's not just good for the people here, it's actually good business sense. It helps with the mission to take care of our people the way we try to.
- [04:08]
A
Yeah. Kurt, I love your philosophy on offering great benefits, but I also know you're the co founder of Food Course, so you've been there since day one.
- [04:18]
B
Yeah.
- [04:18]
A
Did you offer this level of benefit out of the gate?
- [04:22]
B
Not immediately out of the gates, but we knew that offering competitive benefits was important. I think where we started to differentiate ourselves was we decided really close to the beginning, I think probably six months into our work, that we were going to build in a sabbatical policy. And that was, I think, the first bold step towards us saying we're going to really commit to caring for our people and helping them recharge for the next leg of this work. We hadn't had anybody who'd worked for us for three years. I think they'd worked for us for six months at most. And we said, you know, we're going to, we're going to build in something far off into the future. Three years from now, people can. Can take a month off and recharge. And boy, that was a game changer from the first time somebody actually took advantage of it.
- [05:11]
A
So I often ask this question, when organizations have a sabbatical policy, did you get any pushback from board members, donors, funders, anyone at all?
- [05:21]
B
Fortunately, No. I think part of what has made it possible for foodcorps to build and offer the benefits package we have is that our partnerships with our donor community are just incredibly high trust kind of partnerships. And so we raise. The vast majority of revenue is unrestricted when it comes into us, and we can spend it on what is strategic for the work. And we've just, on an ongoing basis, been an open book with our donor partners about why we spend the resources the way we do. And by and large, they understand that taking care of our people is critical to actually making a difference for the kids we exist for. I'll say that on the sabbatical policy, I had actually learned about this from a donor, the Durfree foundation out in California, who's not a foodcorp funder. But I was meeting with one of their trustees, and they fund nonprofit executive director sabbaticals as a core part of what they do in the world. And I was just really interested in why they did that. And the research was really compelling. And, you know, my first thought was, why limit that to the executive director? Like, people in my seat get all kinds of opportunities in this business. And the real question is, how do we spread those around to folks across the organization so that we all get the things we need to recharge?
- [06:53]
A
So two things I want to reflect on that you said. The first is, and I say this to executive directors again and again and again I say, you know, if you went to your funders and told them that we needed to be more generous in our benefits, they're probably going to understand because, you know, they, for the most part, have staff, too. And, you know, on the funder side of the house, they're pretty generous with benefits. Not as generous as foodcorp, to be clear, but they're still pretty generous.
- [07:17]
B
Well, you know, it pays to be closer to the spigot. But I would say also I think people in general understand the need for the kind of benefits FoodCorps offers, because we're all humans. We're all dealing with the same stuff. Like, we all are navigating, caring for loved ones as they get older or having kids or dealing with a health problem. Like, just the stuff of life comes up and work doesn't do a great job in this country of making space for life to happen. And we just got to do a better job as a. As a whole culture and a nation around creating more room in our work structures for life to happen. And I think those of us in the nonprofit sector, a part of the challenge. We took on when we created this whole kind of third sector in the first place was to say, there's a different way to do this. Let's try to create something that's a little more utopian in some ways, not utopian in a. In a way that can't be broadly applied across our culture, but just is maybe a little bit ahead of where our country as a whole needs to go.
- [08:19]
A
Yeah. It's funny, I think similarly, where I'm like, there's a reason we don't pay tax in this sector, and it's. It's so we can be innovative and we can treat people well. And that includes our employees.
- [08:29]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I think you. You're right to ask the question about funders, though, because there is this kind of sometimes perceived and sometimes very real pressure within our sector to spend as little as possible on overhead, spend as little as possible on fundraising, spend as little as possible on marketing and communications, and just kind of be out there in the trenches doing the good work. And the reality is, if we don't spend strategically on overhead and fundraising and marketing and communications, our organizations are never going to get to the size of the challenge we're trying to conquer. They're never going to get to the level of quality that they need to. To actually shift a system from an unjust place to a just place.
- [09:18]
A
So it sounds like your first big kind of out of the box benefits were sabbaticals. And you also said that you noticed a real difference in year three when people started to take their sabbaticals.
- [09:30]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, people at Foodcorps often will tell you kind of how long until they get to take their sabbatical, and they'll be tracking that. I remember I had a high school English teacher who every day would put on the chalkboard the number of days until she could retire. I didn't really appreciate that as a student. It felt a little demotivating. But in the case of the sabbatical, what's. We thought people might get to that milestone and then leave. They might do the equivalent of retiring. Be like, well, I did my three years, I had my month off. Now I'm off to a new job. People come back, they want to do it again. You know, they get. They get the chance to restore their energy levels and think with fresh eyes about the work they're doing at Foodcorp, and they also want to stay and do another three years.
- [10:15]
A
Yeah, that. It's funny. I was going to ask you that question. I was like, okay, people get their time off and then do they leave in three months or six months? But no, in six months they're like, hey, I'm only two and a half years away from another month and I could get all this other great time off. Two week winter break, five weeks accrued time of year, 12 holidays, plus my birthday. Like I've not added all of that together in my head, but that's a significant amount of time. That's like, let's see, seven, eight, nine, almost 10 weeks.
- [10:41]
B
It is, yeah. You know, we've made a decision that we would rather have people be able to lean in fully to their work during the times that they're working, but not have the total number of hours. Be this kind of relentless grind that careers often end up bringing to you. So, you know, one very significant commitment we made in the last several years was switching to half day Fridays. So we, I think it was during COVID that we started this benefit. But it, it was so meaningful to folks. We made it permanent is to say we're going to work on Friday mornings and everybody's going to take Friday afternoon off. And for parents that's really useful. Time to have a brief moment when you are free during the day, but not yet caring for your kids and for everybody else it's just a chance to look out for yourself a little bit.
- [11:32]
A
So, and I'm also curious about that. So when you implemented that, I think I know what you're going to say, but I'm just curious, did you say okay, so that means we now have a 36 hour week or you know, or did you say, okay, we're going to have nine hour days Monday through Thursday and then just leave early on Friday.
- [11:51]
B
FoodCorps work doesn't play out across a kind of punch in, punch out time clock. We honor folks in very different time zones. We have folks all across the country on our team and we recognize that people need the ability to work an adjusted schedule that reflects their family situation. I pick up my kids from school fairly often and it's useful to have the flexibility to go do that. And then I start my day really early because I'm a morning person and after about 4pm I'm not, not that useful. So instead of saying there's a hard number of hours, we expect everybody to work and we've expanded the workday on the other times we really focus on a three legged stool. Humanity, efficacy and accountability. The humanity pieces in this context, we're going to try to look out for you as a whole person and make sure. You have the support and the structures around you to take care of yourself and your family and meet your needs as a person. The efficacy piece is we have a mission to fulfill and really important work to do, and we're going to keep focused on fulfilling that mission and doing that work in the ways we need to. And the accountability piece is if you stop contributing to that mission in the ways that you've committed to contribute, then we're going to have a conversation about that, too.
- [13:14]
A
Yeah. So, and I'm curious, like, how do you measure that? How do you measure each team member contributing in the way that you're expecting?
- [13:21]
B
Sure. So, you know, obviously, if people stop showing up for work, there is a. There is a time which the number of hours you work matters, and 35, 36 hours a week is the expectation. And what really matters is everybody has work plans and goals and good managers. And our job is to hold the accountability in place for each other and with each other around what we've committed to doing to advance the FoodCorps mission. We got a team of, you know, 110 folks on the national staff right now. We've got another nearly 200AmeriCorps members who are working with kids in schools every single day. And there's a lot of accountability in place around making sure the work actually happens.
- [14:06]
A
Got it? Yeah, I was just. I was just really very curious about that. And are there any specific tools you use or.
- [14:12]
B
Now, I mean, a strong performance review process that happens on the regular. We use 360 reviews to help folks really understand how they're experienced by colleagues, because that's, you know, in any group project, that's. That's the feedback that often matters most is learning, you know, where somebody is really not pulling their weight. But, you know, folks come to this organization and this mission because they want to do the work. We don't have a chronic problem of people kind of phoning it in. The performance management work we do is mostly around helping people do the work better and helping people partner with others in the workplace more effectively.
- [14:50]
A
Okay, wow. So you've got a couple other benefits, by the way. I know my friends who were listening, like, Dolph, I thought you were talking about great benefits. Now you're starting to talk about performance valuation. Get back to the subject. So I'm going to do that now because I do have a couple other questions for you about some of your benefits. And so I know you're offering 16 weeks paid parental leave. And I'm just curious, like, uh, do you have an insurance product that helps cover that or do you all just cover it out of your. Your regular operating revenue?
- [15:18]
B
No, we just cover that directly. You know, this was an area where, boy, in the early days, I was the first FoodCorp employee to have a child in our workforce. And we had a very limited time off policy. And I didn't even take all that time. And it was a real mistake. I mean, it was, it was a mistake for me and my family. And it was something that raised from, for me at least, the urgency of figuring out some better way of handling that for our people. And we decided it was something our country as a whole is coming up way short on is giving parents and families the freedom and flexibility and financial support they need to just take the time to be with their kid. And that's partially true about those kind of immediate first moments of life. And it's also true about how do you create more flexibility as folks start to re enter the workforce after having a child and often need to work a reduced schedule in order to line up with whatever their partner's got going on or whatever their kids particular needs are at that time or what they're ready for. So at FoodCorps, we decided to put in place 16 week paid parental leave program so that we can make sure that incredibly important time of life. I mean, we exist for kids. Our mission is about child wellbeing. So if we're not gonna put our money where our mouth is on that, we're making a real mistake.
- [16:48]
A
Yeah. So. And I'll share with you, there's nothing like becoming a parent to give one empathy. And it happened for me in an odd way. My, my husband and I, we became foster parents when I was in my 50s and we no longer are foster parents. We became foster parents when I was in my 50s and we fostered teens. And suddenly from going a childless, nice, stable life where I could control every minute of every day to oh my gosh, I've got school pickup and I've got this. And yeah, 16 weeks off would have been so helpful.
- [17:22]
B
Yeah, it is helpful for sure. And we try to look more holistically at what is it our young parents, new parents need. So we offer a $10,000 lifetime benefit for fertility support. We offer a $7,500 support for surrogacy or adoption costs. And, you know, hearing from our colleagues who have needed to take advantage of that support, it just makes such a difference at a time when you're already navigating a set of, you know, you're Swimming upstream against a lot of societal pressures. And to have an organization that has your back can feel really good.
- [18:05]
A
Yeah. So. And you may not have this number. I get you're the CEO, not the chief people officer. But do you have a sense of roughly what percentage of your team actually gets the 16 weeks of paid parental leave in a given year?
- [18:22]
B
I don't know what percentage in the given year, I can tell you. You know, like. Like a lot of nonprofit organizations, our workforce is skews, relatively young. And because we offer good benefits, in part, we tend to keep people around for a relatively long time. And we have an extraordinary number of folks who have kids while they are working at FoodCorp. And there's a real culture of celebrating and supporting that. We have a tradition in the organization of when there's a member of the team who's having a baby, word goes out quietly to the full team. And folks who want to send a children's book, send one in. And folks will get dozens and dozens and dozens of children's books mailed to their house with a little note of love and care from a colleague who they may not even have a direct working relationship with. But there's just a, you know, a desire to support each other through this incredible life milestone. And, you know, we want the organization to be a part of that for folks. We don't want work to just be work. I don't think that the generations that are in the workforce now are seeking a workplace that doesn't treat them as a full person. We just want to celebrate like you're having this amazing life experience. I hope it's awesome for you. And here's a little book that I loved reading to my kid and talk
- [19:43]
A
about engagement to your workplace and with your workplace. You know, if you go out on parental leave and you get a dozen or 15 or 16 books from coworkers, that has to really kind of weave you into that community that is your workplace.
- [19:59]
B
Totally does. It totally does. I do want to pick up, though. I think one of the things we've been mindful of in building our benefits package has been because there can be so much focus in our country on paid parental leave, we didn't want to leave out the fact that there's a huge set of benefit gaps for folks in the workplace who have different challenges and are either older or facing health challenges of their own. And so it was important to us to offer equitable benefit opportunities for folks who were not going to be having kids but needed something else. And so our health insurance package. In particular, we couple the health insurance we offer, which is a pretty strong plan on its own, with an HRA that on the, you know, if employees kick in a little bit more, they get a really generous HRA that covers almost the, maybe it is the full out of pocket maximum for folks. And so by having this partnership where Foodcorp is putting in a bunch of money, the employee is putting in a modest amount of money, we're able to offer the folks who need really robust medical care, super strong medical care. And for the folks on our team who have gone through cancer treatment in their time at FoodCorp, or navigated really difficult chronic disease for themselves or a child or a member of their family, having that high quality health insurance with a really strong HRA in place has been great. And for the people who are not expecting to tap into those needs, they've got a much more affordable option with an HSA that gives them a lot of flexibility and you know, getting the kind of health and well being treatment that matters to them. And maybe that's acupuncture or it's massage or whatever, but we can provide some flexibility for people in those ways too.
- [22:04]
A
I'm going to test my own knowledge here. Health reimbursement account.
- [22:07]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yep. And then an HSA is a health savings account and there's an FSA flexible spending account option too. Yeah.
- [22:16]
A
Awesome. Awesome. So I'm also curious when I hear about all the time off, the sabbaticals, the 16 weeks paid parental leave and good for you, that is you've had people who started with you early career and are aging into their parental leave. Good for you that you're still doing it. But, but I also have this feeling that you have to be planning your staffing for your programs, knowing how generous you are with time off.
- [22:42]
B
There's a lot I need to cover. So yes, part of what we spend money on when it comes to benefits is bonuses for the people who are covering for somebody. We'll occasionally bring in temporary additional support when we need it, but by and large we cover for each other and we provide some additional compensation to folks who have had to go above and beyond to cover for somebody who's been out. And we try to find enough added capacity across the team that we can, that we can support people taking the leave they need.
- [23:12]
A
So I feel like you're a really good person, given your commitment to equity, to ask this question of generally speaking, like what's a fair bonus compensation when we're asking someone to step in to an additional Role.
- [23:27]
B
That's a great question. And I actually should know what the current rates are. I've seen oftentimes folks are getting a, you know, three to $5,000 bonus for stepping in to cover somebody who's out for a period of time. But I think we flex that based on what, you know, salary tier is the person in and what. How significant was the commitment they needed to make to go over and above and cover for somebody.
- [23:51]
A
That's awesome. Now, I have just two more benefits I want to ask you about. You do? And I am, as someone, by the way, who started, who became a monthly donor to Planned Parenthood right after Roe v. Wade was overturned. I love the fact that you do $7,500 toward not just surrogacy and contraceptives, but also abortion travel. But I've got to ask, and I've already asked you about pushback. I know not everyone feels the way I do about a woman's right to choose and a woman have control over her own body. Did you get any pushback when you offered that?
- [24:23]
B
We've not gotten any pushback. It's a complicated time in our country. And FoodCorps belief is our job in this political context is to make sure the people we work with most closely are able to take care of the needs that they have that are right for them and their families. And that means making sure that we do our part to make it possible for women to get healthcare. And if that requires travel for them, then we have some ability to support that.
- [24:55]
A
Okay. Wow. Kudos. Kudos, Kudos. Last big benefit question. I know every employee gets like an annual professional development fund. Are there. I'm just curious, like, what strings, if any, are attached to that? Like, you know, like, does it have to be something that supports their current position? Like, what are the strings?
- [25:16]
B
It's an interesting one because it's one that's actually an evolution for us. We have been incredibly flexible with those dollars. You know, folks doing a knitting class or whatever, that was just right for them in that moment that felt really important to us in the COVID period where folks were just trying to hold it together and figure out how to take care of themselves and their loved ones. And what people needed in terms of professional development looked different. Where we are now, we as we, you know, again, it's that three legged stool of humanity and efficacy and accountability. The COVID period was very much a humanity period. It was a time of folks needing to take care of themselves and their families and their loved ones. It was a time of a huge racial justice uprising and reckoning in our country. The stress that social justice workers were under was just huge. And we decided to be as flexible as possible through that period in terms of how we approached individuals, getting some professional development support. We've decided for this year we're going to bring some tightening to that, and we need to focus on closing some gaps we're seeing in the organization. So we're investing in manager training for all of our managers and really trying to do that in a super high quality way. And we're being more targeted in how we're approaching employee professional development funds. I don't know that it'll stay in that more focused way, but that's the decision we decided was needed is we were over indexing on humanity in that area and under indexing on efficacy. And so we're balancing out.
- [26:55]
A
Yeah, completely fair. My last question before we move to two truths and a lie. My gut says all of this has been really good for your employee retention and obviously everything that leads to employee retention, employee morale, et cetera. Do you happen to have numbers on like, okay, our average employee tenure is X amount.
- [27:14]
B
I wish I had that in front of me. And I actually do not. What I can tell you is people don't leave FoodCorp because of salary and benefit concern. They don't. They leave because there's some amazing thing they want to go do next in their life, or they leave because they've been called to a different mission. They leave because of personal decisions that come up for them. And like every workplace, folks have their issues and challenges and you have a bad year or a disagreement with your manager or whatever it is. Like, people leave for for all kinds of reasons from their jobs. I've not met anyone who has left because of our benefits or our salary. And in fact, the number of folks who tell us they chose this job and stayed in this job in meaningful part because of those benefits has been huge.
- [28:03]
A
Yeah, I hear you on that. No one's left for 36 weeks. Paid parental leave. I hear you on. Well, Kurt, I'm grateful you've come on. And by the way, in the outro, after we play Two Truths and a Lie, I'm going to share with all of my friends who are listening your URL so they know how to find you. I also have a feeling there's probably a number of people like, huh, maybe I should see what jobs are open at FoodCorps. And I would imagine that you all are very competitive at attracting talent.
- [28:30]
B
Yeah. But still apply. I mean, it's really important to like, the reason we do this is so that you amazing listener will apply to, to our jobs. And you know, we try to take care of our AmeriCorps members as well as we can too. We didn't talk about much them. Much about them today, but you know, We've got almost 200AmeriCorps members in our program and we pay a really competitive stipend to them. It's a living wage in almost every market where we work, which is not typical of national service positions. And then we do things like gap pay between service terms and relocation stipend for folks who need to relocate. And then we have an emergency fund for folks who go through a particular challenge and need some support on the fly. We have the ability to take care of them through that.
- [29:20]
A
That's impressive. And you're right, most, most organizations that are, that are engaging AmeriCorps workers are not doing that for them. And part of me really wants to nerd out and find out if you're using the MIT living wage calculator, but it might be. I need to have a conversation with your chief people officer at some point and find that out.
- [29:38]
B
Sure enough.
- [29:40]
A
But. So I would love for us to play Two Truths and a Lion. And you know, we've all played it before. You're going to tell me three quote unquote facts about yourself. Two of them are going to be real or true, one of them is not. And I, who am terrible at this game, I'm going to try to guess which one is not real.
- [29:56]
B
So the three things that I have to share with you are I grew up the oldest of eight children in Cincinnati, I camped out for Britney Spears tickets, and I drive a Buick.
- [30:22]
A
Okay, all of these seem plausible.
- [30:25]
B
Hold on. I actually gave you two lies on a truth. Oh, delete.
- [30:32]
A
So no, no. So what I'll do, I'll just try to guess the truth. How's that sound?
- [30:35]
B
Okay.
- [30:36]
A
Okay. Yeah, so we'll just reverse it. So all of those seem plausible to me. Let's see. So there's Britney Spears, there's the Buick, and then it's oldest of eight. I know that Buicks were discontinued sometime in the last 10 years, but I also have an odd sense that, like me, you're someone that doesn't replace their vehicle very often. It's like I drive a 22 year old vehicle. So I'm really torn on that one. I think that could be plausible. But I am going to guess the truth is you're the oldest of Eight children.
- [31:17]
B
I'm actually the youngest of six. I grew up in Oregon. I also drive old cars. I drive a 99 Jeep and a year 2000 Toyota pickup.
- [31:33]
A
Oh, hold on. I have to ask. Is it a Tacoma?
- [31:35]
B
No, it's a tundra.
- [31:37]
A
Okay. Because I drive a 2002 Tacoma. I was like, I'm going to take a picture of my truck and send it to you.
- [31:41]
B
Excellent. They last forever. And, yeah, we need that here on the farm in Vermont. And the truth is that I camped out for Britney Spears tickets in a radio station parking lot when I was a freshman in college. My buddy Thomas thought that if we went and just pitched a tent in the radio station at Z100 in Portland, Oregon, the morning show guys might just give us free tickets to this weird show she was doing at the county fair. And they did.
- [32:15]
A
Really? Were you all the only ones camping out or were other people camping out?
- [32:18]
B
We were the only ones. It wasn't like they were like, come camp out for tickets. It was like, maybe if we do something weird enough, they'll reward us with tickets. And the only downsides was the reward was going to this weird show at the county fair.
- [32:32]
A
Kurt, I love, love, love the boldness of that. Hey, no one else is camping out. Let's go sleep in the parking lot and see what they do for us. Wow, that's awesome. Well, Kurt, thank you so much for coming on, and I'll share with you. When I first read about your benefits package, I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is unheard of in any sector. And we've got to have the conversation. And my hope is that folks who are listening today, this is like giving them the inspiration and motivation to think about ways that they can be far more generous in their own or really, I guess, far more human in what they're offering to the people who work for their organization and friends. If you would like to find out more about foodcorps or about Kurt, I want you to go to foodcorps.org, we're going to put this in the show notes, too. That's foodcorps.org While you're there, you can find out about FoodCorps work. You also, by the way, if you have a passion for the food security space, you should really check out their employment page, too. They're not a small organization. They're national. As Kurt said, a lot of folks are working remotely. And if you're interested, you might want to check that out as well. Kurt, thank you so much for joining us today. I am super glad you did.
- [33:48]
B
Love the chance to be with you Dolph and to join you from my home office where I used my $500 home office stipend to buy this nice microphone.
- [33:57]
A
Awesome, awesome, awesome. And all right, friends, if you like this episode, there's two more I want you to listen to. One is episode 288, our Unlimited PTO experiment with Dolph and Lexie. And the second is episode 336, Beyond Incentives that Work with Yuri Ganezi. That is our show for this week. I hope that you have gained some insight to help you and your nonprofit thrive. And the lawyers make me say it because there's no world where I would otherwise. I'm not an accountant, nor am I an attorney, and neither I nor the consulting practice provide tax, legal or accounting advice. Please, if that is what you need, don't get it from a podcast, don't get it from a blog. Get it from someone who's actually licensed to provide tax, legal or accounting advice. And if you need a very specific type of advice and you're not sure what what type of lawyer, what specialty of accountant you should be talking to, you can reach out to me and I can help you figure out the right person to talk to.