Hour 3: Josh Pastner & Nolan Smith join the show...

Summary

Sunday Mornings with Matt and Myron - Episode: Hour 3: Josh Pastner & Nolan Smith Join the Show
Release Date: April 6, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Sunday Mornings with Matt and Myron, hosts Matt Jones and Myron Medcalf delve deep into the current landscape of college basketball, focusing on the challenges and dynamics introduced by the NIL (Name, Image, Likeness) regulations. The episode features insightful interviews with UNLV Head Coach Josh Pastner and Memphis Assistant Coach Nolan Smith, who share their experiences and perspectives on coaching in the modern era of college sports.

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Interview with Josh Pastner: Navigating Coaching Amidst NIL Challenges

Josh Pastner's New Role at UNLV

The episode kicks off with a heartfelt congratulations to Josh Pastner on his new position as the head basketball coach at UNLV. Pastner reflects on the tumultuous start to his tenure, highlighting the unprecedented circumstances brought about by the NIL era.

"[...] when I took over the job, obviously the transition from the previous coach being let go to me being hired, everyone, the entire roster went in the portal. So when I came in, I didn't have zero players."
— Josh Pastner [02:00]

Pastner emphasizes the stark contrast between his previous coaching roles at Memphis and Georgia Tech, where retaining players was more straightforward without the portal and NIL complexities. His initial efforts focused on community outreach and fundraising to stabilize the program.

Pressure of Coaching vs. Being a Player

The discussion shifts to the pressures inherent in coaching compared to playing. Pastner underscores that while players face significant pressure on the court, coaches bear the ultimate responsibility for the team's success.

"There's more pressure as a coach because your job depends on winning the games and advancing... You're relying on 18 to 24-year-olds to make a shot for you to determine your happiness and sadness."
— Josh Pastner [07:25]

He elaborates on the relentless nature of college basketball scheduling, where every game carries weight toward tournament qualification, unlike the NBA's more forgiving 82-game season.

Impact of NIL on Team Stability

Pastner discusses how NIL has exacerbated player turnover, making it challenging to build and maintain a cohesive team. He highlights the difficulty in competing with established programs that can offer substantial NIL opportunities, placing smaller schools like UNLV at a disadvantage.

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Interview with Nolan Smith: The Struggles and Strategies in the NIL Era

Reflecting on Duke's Heartbreaking Loss

Nolan Smith joins the conversation to provide his take on Duke's recent loss to Houston. He empathizes with the heartbreak felt by Duke, recalling his own experiences as a player and coach in high-stakes games.

"Duke was winning that battle. And so for them to lose that game the way they did, you know, you just feel so bad for them in that moment."
— Nolan Smith [24:31]

Smith praises UNLV's head coach John Shire for instilling toughness and unity within the team, despite the challenges posed by a young roster.

Youth vs. Veteran Teams in Tournament Play

Addressing the dynamics between young, "one-and-done" teams and veteran squads, Smith asserts that veteran presence is crucial for success in high-pressure tournaments.

"You always need some vets. Veteran presence on a talented young team is needed."
— Nolan Smith [26:50]

He emphasizes that while talented freshmen can drive a team, the experience and composure of seasoned players often determine the outcome in tightly contested games.

Challenges for Mid-Major Programs

Smith highlights the difficulties faced by mid-major programs like Memphis in competing with Power Five schools, especially under the current NIL framework. He points out that without significant NIL support, attracting top talent becomes increasingly difficult.

"The numbers that you're hearing from the majority of the Power Five schools... we're not even close."
— Nolan Smith [27:59]

Balancing NIL and Athletic Development

When asked about recruiting strategies beyond just financial incentives, Smith stresses the importance of offering pathways to professional careers and personal development, aiming to attract players who prioritize growth and opportunity over immediate financial gain.

"At the end of the day, the main thing it has to remain the main thing, which is, do you want to be an NBA player?"
— Nolan Smith [29:00]

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Navigating NIL: Challenges and Potential Solutions

Discussion on NIL's Impact on College Basketball

Hosts Matt and Myron engage with both Pastner and Smith on the pervasive issues caused by NIL in college basketball. They discuss the relentless player movement, the strain on coaching staff, and the destabilization of team rosters.

Potential Regulatory Measures

Pastner and Smith explore possible solutions to mitigate the chaos introduced by NIL. Ideas include implementing contracts for players to prevent constant movement and creating revenue-sharing models to support smaller programs.

"Maybe something similar to the Japanese baseball bidding system, where smaller schools receive compensation when players are poached by bigger programs."
— Matt Jones [17:00]

Smith adds that enforcing stricter contracts and penalties for early departures could help retain talent within programs longer.

The Future of NIL and College Sports

Both coaches express skepticism about the NCAA's ability to effectively regulate NIL, citing ongoing issues with agent interference and the lack of comprehensive policies to maintain competitive balance.

"The way it's structured now is not right. Especially as Jim Boeheim said, the mid-majors... there's no way they can combat that."
— Tim Welsh [33:05]

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National Championship Insights

Previewing the Upcoming Finals

Smith provides a breakdown of the imminent national championship games between Houston and Florida, analyzing team strengths and strategies.

"It's going to be absolutely a big-time game... Florida defends the way they ice ball screens and get after with active hands."
— Nolan Smith [30:12]

He predicts a fiercely contested matchup, emphasizing the defensive prowess of both teams and the importance of veteran leadership in high-stakes scenarios.

Assessing Player Performances

The conversation touches on standout players like Walter Clayton Jr., discussing their roles and the challenges they face against top-tier defenses.

"He's very good at keeping his dribble alive and attacking, probing the defense, going inside, then back out, finding the open man or finding shots for himself."
— Tim Welsh [41:30]

Smith underscores the necessity for teams to balance offensive aggression with defensive discipline to succeed in the tournament.

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Concluding Thoughts: The End of the Cinderella Era?

In a compelling finale, the hosts and guests debate whether the current state of college basketball signifies the end of the "Cinderella" narratives—teams that achieve unexpected success through underdog stories.

"From just like a basketball purist, we get the best product at the time where the game is the most visible."
— Nolan Smith [43:07]

Pastner and Smith express mixed feelings, acknowledging the romanticism of Cinderella stories but emphasizing the importance of determining the true best teams through rigorous competition.

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Final Takeaways

This episode provides a comprehensive look into the transformative effects of NIL on college basketball, featuring firsthand accounts from coaches navigating this new terrain. Josh Pastner and Nolan Smith offer valuable insights into the pressures of coaching, the necessity of veteran leadership, and the urgent need for regulatory solutions to preserve the integrity and competitiveness of college sports.

Notable Quotes:

• "There's more pressure as a coach because your job depends on winning the games and advancing." — Josh Pastner [07:25]
• "You always need some vets. Veteran presence on a talented young team is needed." — Nolan Smith [26:50]
• "The way it's structured now is not right." — Tim Welsh [33:05]
• "It can end up battling when you're playing Houston for sure that's where they really will collapse on him." — Tim Welsh [41:30]

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Conclusion

Sunday Mornings with Matt and Myron delivers an engaging and informative episode that captures the complexities of modern college basketball. Through candid discussions with esteemed coaches, the show sheds light on the evolving challenges and potential pathways forward for the sport amidst the ongoing NIL revolution.

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Note: All timestamps correspond to the provided transcript and are intended to reference specific parts of the discussion for clarity.

Transcript

[Andy Gresh]

I was never really a runner. The way I see running is a.

[Tim Welsh]

Gift, especially when you have stage four cancer.

[Nolan Smith]

I'm Ann. I'm running the Boston Marathon, presented by bank of America.

[Andy Gresh]

I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute to give people like me a chance.

[Tim Welsh]

To thrive in life, even with cancer. Join bank of America in helping Anne's cause.

[Nolan Smith]

Give if you can@b of a.comSupportAnn what would you like the power to do? References to charitable organizations is not endorsement by bank of America Corporation.

[Andy Gresh]

Copyright 2025 this is Matt and Myron the podcast. We are just three hours away from the women tipping it off on abc. And of course, tomorrow night it'll be Florida against Houston for the national championship. Final hour of Sunday morning's countdown to tip off here on ESPN radio, the ESPN app, SiriusXM channel 80 with the coach, Tim Welsh. I am Andy Grash. And joining us now, a guy who was an ESPN basketball analyst until a couple of weeks ago. He is now the head basketball coach at UNLV and can provide an interesting perspective to these national championship games. We welcome in UNLV head coach Josh Pastner here to ESPN Radio and coach. First of all, we have to start you with congratulations on the new gig. How's it feel to be back in coaching again?

[Josh Pastner]

Yeah, no, I appreciate you guys having me on. You know, first of all, it's a, it's been a whirlwind. It's been chaotic and total chaos. Part of that has been because when I took over the job, obviously the transition from the previous coach being let go to me being hired, everyone, the entire roster went in the portal. So when I, so when I came in, I didn't have, I had zero players. And I remember, like, after the first couple of days, they, they came up to talk to me about scheduling and I, the administration, and I told the administration, I said, look, all this sounds good, but right now, we showed up on any of these games, we would have to forfeit because we wouldn't have a team to field. So I says, come find me in a couple of weeks so we can talk about scheduling. So, you know, it's so different when I took over from Memphis and Georgia Tech at those two programs, when I took over, you know, there was no portal, there was no nil. You have your entire team there, the returning guys from the previous season that had eligibility. So you have those guys, you work them out, you meet them. You know, you meet them in the locker room. Explain your vision. You know, after you get hired, you go around to the different high schools in the. In the locale. And maybe you go to some bordering states and see, make sure you hit all the different AOU coaches and high school coaches. The difference now, when I get this job, zero players the first 96 hours, I don't know what I was doing other than just literally going out in the community to try to raise money for nil. You know, I. Then you're. Then you're watching film on every guy literally on the portal and trying to, you know, get some guys on the roster. So I say all that to say that, that it's been absolutely a whirlwind. I've actually enjoyed it as much as it's been. It's been chaotic in a sense, but it's been a good chaos. So totally different this time around, taking over a program compared to what it was the other two programs I took over at that time.

[Tim Welsh]

Josh, thanks for being with us. Congratulations. Real happy for you that you're back on the sidelines. But we want to talk about the past a little bit and go to your days as a player at Arizona, an assistant at Memphis. You've been in the Final Four, you've been in the national championship game. What does that feel like? Especially when you were at Memphis and you lost a heartbreaker to Kansas. What is Duke feeling today?

[Josh Pastner]

Well, look, I can remember a couple things and the one that stands out to me because I was part of the team in 1997 when we won the national championship with Lou Dolson, Arizona, and we had the entire team back the next year in 1998. I mean, we were the best team in the country and we lost in the Elite Eight. It wasn't the Final Four, but we lost in the Elite Eight. And this to your point, on what you're saying, lost in Elite Eight to Rick Mageris and in Utah. And I'll never forget how crushed I was and that everyone was crushed because you. We really had a chance to do something in a historical way, to be back to back national champions. And you don't know. I mean, it just. It's in coach, you know, this. It's almost impossible to. I mean, so it's so hard to even get to the NCAA tournament, let alone to get to the second weekend, let alone to get to the Final Four, let alone to win a national championship. So. And we had a chance to do something historical and we. And we didn't get it done. He lose to Utah and you like. And you just knew that you might never get that chance again. So for what How Duke's feeling, John Shire and the rest in the program, it's crushing because it wasn't a situation where Houston had the game in control the entire game. It was the other way. Duke had total control of the game, the entire game. And they just, they let us slip away towards the end. And yes, will Duke have opportunities to be back? We all know that because they're going to obviously continue to get the best, you know, some of the best talent coming in. Just, you know, one, you know, Duke and the nil and everything, they're going to be year in, year out, going to be there. But, but you don't know. There are no guarantees. And Coach Welsh, it's almost, it is so hard, it is so hard to win, to win a game, to get to the tournament, but to win a national championship or put yourselves in that position to play on that Monday night, I mean, it's, it's just, it's, you have to get so lucky along the way besides just being really good. And there's no doubt that Coach Shire staff the players, but it more so than even the staff is going to be crushed for some time. You don't get over that. And you know, as time goes on, you know, obviously the pain will lessen. But Coach, you know this. I mean, it's, the players might not understand it all today because, you know, players don't are in the game as long as coaches are or have been in college. Whereas the coaches know, man, you have that golden opportunity because there's no question Duke was the best team in the country this year, talent wise. You look at what they, the talent, the number of pros they got, the number one draft pick who's a potential NBA all star. And the way they were playing, they were crushing teams and they were just at a different level and it just ended up slipping through their hands late last night.

[Andy Gresh]

Josh Passner, UNLV head basketball coach with us here on Countdown. The tip off on ESPN Radio and the ESPN app. ESPN Radio is presented by Progressive Insurance. Coach, you experienced it as a coach, as an assistant, as you mentioned, and as a player. How do, how is the pressure similar but different? Is it completely different? What is the pressure like in each of those roles?

[Josh Pastner]

Well, look, there's more pressure as a coach because, you know, I mean, you're going to, your job depends on, on, on winning the games and, and advancing the term or getting to the tournament and having success in the tournament. I mean, Coach Welsh, you know, he understands, I understand, like there's a difference between being Being a player on the team that really, you know, there's pressure, especially if, I mean, you got to perform. But there's no more pressure than being that sitting as the head coach. There's pressure on the assistant coach because. But you're really tied to the head coach and the head coach is tied to the players performing. So it's a, it's a wild professional say that you're relying on 18 to 24 year olds or 18 to 23 year olds to make a shot for you to kind of determine your happiness and sadness, your, your livelihood and everything else in between. It's a, it's a very interesting dynamic when you think of the big picture. But look, you know, part of that thing is, you know, it never says in the lead up to the tournament, everything's about the road to the Final Four, all the marketing, all the campaigns, everything in college basketball, road to the Final Four. It doesn't say the road to the regular season championship. It doesn't say, hey, the road to winning 20 games. It doesn't say the road to winning the conference tournament championship. Everything's about the tournament. And so there's so much pressure to have success, to get yourself to the tournament, to position yourself, to try to advance. And that's why I tell everyone the pressure that sometimes fans, or just sports fans really don't turn into college basketball until after the Super Bowl. But the games in November and in December are just as critical and as so important as they are in January and February.

[Andy Gresh]

Why?

[Josh Pastner]

Because you only guaranteed 31 regular season games before your conference tournament. And you, and every game matters if you want to have an opportunity to get an at large bid to the NCAA tournament. And so if you have a couple losses in November, you have a, you struggle in a month in December, those things can come back to bite you later on and keep you out of the NC2A tournament as an at large. And that's why, that's what, that's what makes college basketball so neat and awesome, where literally every possession of every game is so precious. Whereas in the NBA you're playing 82 games, you can afford to lose, have a five game losing streak. You can, you can go on 15 games, go seven and eight and seven and still be okay and get hot lit. That can't happen in college basketball. And that's the difference. And that's what makes it the pressurize of every single game.

[Andy Gresh]

Great breakdown by coach Josh Pastner, the new head coach at unlv. Coach, thanks for the time. And the breakdown and the perspective on everything. We appreciated. Good luck in the hunt for a roster and we'll catch you down the road. Thank you.

[Josh Pastner]

Hey, if you. If you have a seven footer out there that you're representing as an nil agent, call me. Come on, let's go. I need some guys, so just let me know.

[Andy Gresh]

There we go. The. The. The beacon. The call has been put out, Coach. Thanks for the time. We really appreciate it. There's Josh Pastner, UNLV head basketball coach and man, that's pretty sobering. Hey, I took a job and had no players. That's just amazing to me. When you think like most normal people are going to hear that coach and be like, wait, what? Makes sense.

[Tim Welsh]

It's a little scary. You go into your team meeting and no one's there. At least you have to waste time checking classes. But, you know, it's the way. It's the way of the world. I have a. I have a feeling he'll have a roster sooner than later.

[Andy Gresh]

Oh, I would think so. Yeah. No one to put on dawn patrol for missing class or anything like that. Along with the coach, Tim Welsh, I'm Andy Grash. It is countdown to tip off on ESPN Radio and the three dirtiest letters in college basketball. N I L how it's impacting the game and can we fix it? Well, we might not, but we'll try. Next Countdown to tip off on ESPN radio. Matt and Myron. The podcast.

[Tim Welsh]

TaxAct knows filing your taxes can be complicated.

[Josh Pastner]

And that's why we have live experts.

[Tim Welsh]

To help you with any questions. They can hold your hand through the.

[Andy Gresh]

Process, beginning to end, metaphorically, of course. I mean, they can't actually hold your hand in person.

[Tim Welsh]

I suppose you could hold your computer mouse while you chat with the expert.

[Andy Gresh]

About capital gains or whatever, which is sort of like holding hands. Sorry.

[Tim Welsh]

Point is, our tax experts can make filing easier. Tax Act. Let's get them over with. There's nothing more satisfying than finding the perfect green paint for your living room. Except maybe popping open that can of Valspar Ultra and rolling that first smooth stroke on the wall.

[Andy Gresh]

And there's nothing more satisfying than admiring.

[Tim Welsh]

Your freshly painted wall.

[Andy Gresh]

Except maybe peeling off the painter's tape.

[Tim Welsh]

To see those crisp edges. But the most satisfying part of all, Valspar Ultra's price tag, starting at $29.98 a gallon. Affordable, durable, available at Lowe's. Price varies by sheen.

[Andy Gresh]

Even though we are celebrating the game of basketball and getting you ready for what will be two great national championship games, as we heard from Northwestern head coach Chris Collins earlier here on Countdown to Tip off on ESPN Radio and the ESPN app. Uh, he's in the middle of trying to put together a roster right now. We just talked to Josh Passner and he got there and every one of his players jumped in the portal and he's trying to put together a roster. So coach Tim Welsh is n I l. Are those the dirtiest combination of letters in sports going today?

[Tim Welsh]

No, it's not. I just think it has to somehow be managed better, somehow, some way. And we talked to Jim Boeheim earlier and no one's smarter about the business of basketball than him. And he has a great understanding of where we are today. And you know, they're going to put the cap on it. The 20 million has to be revenue shared, all that stuff. But the nil and the collectives are still there. He said that to you. So does anyone believe that University X in a big time conference is going to be limited because of this revenue sharing? No. They're going to go out and you have to go out and supposedly have real nil. So if I want to go earn nil, I've got to go do an ad for Andy Gresh's car company and I actually have to stand and go on a billboard and get paid for that. But does anybody think that won't happen? It will happen. It will happen and, and it'll get big again. And I think really the only thing we can do with these players is you have to put them under contract. I mean, we've talked.

[Andy Gresh]

Thank you.

[Tim Welsh]

You know, we, we talk about the coaches leaving and certainly they have the right to leave and they can be criticized for. But you know what, every coach that's left, it's at different levels. We all know the names, whether it's Buzz Williams from Texas A and M to Maryland or Kevin Willard from Maryland to Villanova, or we all know the list. Each school that you leave, you have to pay back a buyout. You have a buyout. Every coach has a buyout in their contract and that money has to go back to the institution. And that's the way the players, if the players want to earn money, they have to have a contract where not only they have to pay back the school if they leave, but also they have to fulfill the contract. I mean, I saw it on numerous occasions this year where players, well, it's my senior year. Maybe if I, you know, my right shin hurts a little bit. I'll sit out and get the ear back and ring the bell again next year with a medical red shirt, but still get paid this year. Meanwhile, I should be out there playing for my school and my coach and my teammates, but I'm not. Because I'm selfishly looking at myself down the road where I can make another X amount of dollars next year, either here or somewhere else. And we all. There's stories everywhere. There's stories all over the land. Football, basketball, everything. You know, I've even heard stories where guys transferred a couple years ago in football, Andy. And in January took the nil money and right after the spring game they went in the portal again and rang the bell somewhere else without ever taking a snap somewhere. So that's just not right. That's not the way it was set up to be. And someone's got to take control of this. I just don't know how because of the fact I think Charles Baker has some good ideas as the head of the ncaa, but does he really have the power to proceed? And that's the problem is that every time you try to put your hands down on something and make rules, that some player find some judge somewhere in some remote town and they'll put an injunction on that and you can just do whatever you want to do. So I'm not sure of the answer, but the way it's structured now is not right. Especially as Jim Boeheim said, the mid majors, I mean they're just right now because they can't compete at all. I mean, you go recruit a good team and then poof, they're gone. They're gone in a minute and there's no way they can combat that. And I don't know how that's going to be solved.

[Andy Gresh]

Well, Coach, I think you, you nailed something inadvertently maybe where you talked about how with coaches there are buyouts and there's always been the longstanding thought that players can't be employees because it's public universities, it's private institutions. And this is where the NCAA has been tremendously ineffective. And in my opinion, before Charlie Baker got there, there was not much want from the NCAA to try to regulate this. It felt like it was, well, I'll just let everybody sink and then it'll make it easier for us to kind of legislate some of what they thought. And now it's, it is complete and utter chaos. But coach, I think, you know, it, it, it's difficult to figure out and I'm not going to go full blown like Japanese baseball bidding system, but maybe something similar to it. Whereas if you're at, you know, Murray State, let's say. And you're a great player and you're going to get recruited by a couple of SEC schools where they're going to come in and try to poach you. Then if you have a contract with the player, there could be something that the smaller school ends up getting from the bigger school for poaching the player. And I know that's just a basic idea but I don't know why it couldn't be instituted with all of the money that we have. And we're essentially going to one year contracts with these players in a lot of ways.

[Josh Pastner]

Yeah.

[Tim Welsh]

And I think that's that has been implemented kind of on the down low in a couple places and I think some of the bigger programs have taken care of the middle majors. If there is some sort of relationship there between the coaches and the programs and it's only right that you do it that way because I'll just use the Metro Atlantic Conference as an example. For the third year in a row all five players went into the portal on their first team all league. And that's just, I mean how do you build a program that way? It's just impossible because now where do they go to get players at this point? And you know, I think obviously you've got to be forward thinking in how you do things but you know, having coached at a mid major school, it really hurts. It hurts to watch some of these programs and what they've had to go through. You have a great season and then all of a sudden boom, you've got everybody back and like Josh Passner, you walk into the room and everybody's gone. So you know that's not a way to handle things. But right now that's the way we're dealing with it. We'll see with this new legislation how it works. But as Jim Boeheim said, if you think that's there's going to be a cap on this, you, you know I've got an island for you to sell you in the Bahamas.

[Andy Gresh]

It is pretty crazy when you think about it. I saw this tweet coach and it got got all over me a little bit because I know they're not related. But Colin Gillespie, who played a Villanova is playing for the Suns. He was bouncing around in the G League. He's making about 600 grand. Now it's only the last name but Jacoby Gillespie got 3 million to go to Tennessee and I think you hit something there coach, on the guys that are not only double dipping but triple dipping. And I hope that in terms of nil, we're going to get cleaned up a little bit with the super seniors kind of getting out of the way. And I do wonder if the NCAA needs to be a little more persnickety on giving guys extra years because as you mentioned, they do want to triple dip. They do want to hey, I went here, I transferred here. Oh, I got hurt, so I took their money and now I'm going to end up going elsewhere. There was at least one of those examples in the in the Big east this year of a guy who was at a school and supposed to be a good player and he got hurt early and now he's going to go play for St. John's so money ruins everything. Money can make everything, but money can also ruin everything. And I do think Coach Welsh slid something in there for folks of the a real nil deal like actually make these guys do stuff for it. The life of an assistant coach in a big time program we count down to tip off Next Matt and Myon the Podcast.

[Tim Welsh]

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[Andy Gresh]

Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments.

[Tim Welsh]

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[Josh Pastner]

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[Tim Welsh]

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[Andy Gresh]

We'Re going to talk to an assistant coach who also won a national championship as well. It is Sunday morning's Countdown to tip off here on ESPN Radio and the ESPN app with the coach Jim Welsh. I'm Andy Grish. 3:00 Eastern on ABC, it's UConn against South Carolina for the women's national championship. And then on Monday night it's Houston against Florida. ESPN Radio is presented by Progressive Insurance. Tune into baseball action tonight. Red Sox host the Cardinals. Coverage of Sunday night baseball begins at at 6:00pm Eastern on ESPN radio and the ESPN app and at 7:00 on ESPN. Well, coach joining us now is a, a guy who's in a assistant coach at the at the University of Memphis also won a national championship. Former teammate of John Shire at Duke was a first round pick in the NBA. Nolan Smith is kind enough to give us a few minutes here on ESPN Radio and coach, I'm with the coach Tim Welsh. I'm Andy Grush with you and I, I, I, I want to know from you as someone who has been there, you've been on national championship teams, just kind of the heartache that the Dookies are feeling right now after what went down last in their loss to Houston.

[Nolan Smith]

Yeah. Oh man. First of all, Andy and Tim, thank you all so much for having me on. It's a privilege. And I feel so bad for those kids. They played great the whole game. They played hard, they played physical. You know, they were basically beating Houston at their, at Houston's game for 36 minutes of the game, which is very hard to do versus Coach Sampson's teams because of how hard and physical they play. Duke was winning that battle. And so for them to lose that game the way they did, you know, you just feel so bad for them in that moment. I mean, the Final Four is the biggest stage, the biggest stage for this, the stage that every player wants to be on. And unfortunately, sometimes to win that game is so fragile and turnovers, missed free throws and those little things can come back to get you in the end.

[Tim Welsh]

Nolan, obviously you see the difference. You've got the one and done situation with some of the Duke guys and then you've got the veteran team in Houston. How hard is it in today's world of college basketball to win with such a young team?

[Nolan Smith]

Oh, it's incredibly hard. And I tell my guy John all the time, he did an incredible job with this team by just getting them so tough and so together in basically three to four months. And they really did it quicker than that because they've been together and tough all year long. Obviously that starts with your leader too, and Cooper Flagg, he leads the charge and how tough they are and he's a winner. So, I mean, just amazing team put together by John and the staff there, but it's very hard to do. And you know, when you get there at the very end, those veterans on Houston side, I mean, they showed their toughness and their poise down the stretch to ultimately win the game.

[Andy Gresh]

Coach, do you think this is an indicator that unless you have three or four Cooper flags, which is probably unlikely nowadays, can you, can you win a national championship with a very young team? Or, or, or, or in, in this one and done era, you know, are the, are the high end freshmen just going to kind of fly in and fly out? How do you sort of see youth connected to having NCAA tournament success in the future?

[Nolan Smith]

You always need some vets. Veteran presence on a talented young team is needed. Obviously this Duke team was really, really good. And a Kuba flag is not coming around that often, and a concanuba for that matter. You're not going to have two talented freshmen like that that both shoot the ball, that both get to their spots that are both just veterans and winners. That's not going to come around very often with the way those two guys play. And you know, they had good pieces around, around them too as well. But you're ultimately going to need some veterans to win. Obviously. I was on a 2010 team that was old Houston's, old Florida's old. They have guys that have been in college basketball for a long time. You know, so when you get on that stage, that Final Four stage, you do need to need some veterans that can ultimately get the job done for you to cut down those nets.

[Tim Welsh]

Nolan, you're at Memphis and you're not in a Power 4 conference, but you play a Power 5 Power 4 schedule and certainly you were elite this year. But how difficult is it at a school like Memphis to compete with some of those power four schools in today's world of nil?

[Nolan Smith]

Oh, yeah, it's very difficult. I mean, the numbers that you're hearing from the majority of the power five schools are. I mean, so when you think about, you know, what you're dealing with, what's your nil look like, and that's a major question right now is what's everybody's nil? You know, we feel like we can compete. We have great Support in Memphis and great ad and obviously they want our basketball program to be one of the top notch programs in the country. But there's still guys and programs that we know that we're not even close, that we're not even going to get in the ballpark with them.

[Andy Gresh]

Well, coach, how like are you finding that kids just want money out there now in nil, like, if you can't offer the most in nil, what are the other ways to appeal to a player to try to have them find value in your program other than just what you're stuffing in their pocket?

[Nolan Smith]

Yeah, I think for us it's always going to be, you know, making sure these kids chase their dreams, you know, and obviously with nil and you know, with these, these kids trying to maximize financially, obviously that's, that's definitely a big deal today. But I think at the end of the day, the main thing they still has to be, it has to remain the main thing, which is, do you want to be an NBA player? All right, so how do you, how do you become an NBA player? How do you become a pro basketball player? Well, you have to be seen. You have to look for the right opportunity, you have to look for the right fit. All the things that used to be done whenever it came to recruiting and choosing a school, those things are still there. You know, does every kid look for that? Probably not. But at the same time, for us, we're still going to sell that and make sure these kids are finding the best spot for them to still become the best basketball player they can be. If we feel like we can get them to give them that, we're going to obviously maybe offer less nil, but that opportunity to just grow as a player.

[Tim Welsh]

Nolan, you've watched the tournament, you're in the tournament. Obviously you're a fan of college basketball and a coach. What's your breakdown of the national championship game tomorrow night between Houston and Florida?

[Nolan Smith]

Oh, it's going to be, it's going to be absolutely big time game. I mean, obviously Florida, I think they're very talented, very big. They defend the way they ice ball screens and get after with active hands. I mean, they did an amazing job versus Auburn last night. I just was watching their defense. It was, it was big time. And I don't think anybody really talks about Florida's defense and their length. They're really, really good. Obviously what they've done all year long in the SEC and obviously with Houston, you know what you're going to get with them, you're going to get toughness, you're going to get fight, you're going to get the dog from them for 40 minutes. Obviously what they just showed versus Duke. So it's going to be, I think it's going to be again another heavyweight fight. I mean just going, going to the games yesterday big time final four, having all four number one seeds in the game. So nothing's going to change tomorrow. It's going to be the two best teams that were able to get there and you know, whoever can make shots, whoever can make the most plays and there's, there's two really good guards on both sides and Crier and Clayton that whichever one has the best nights probably going to end up leading their team to victory.

[Andy Gresh]

Coach, in all seriousness now because I know that we're in the putting together a roster nil era, all that stuff. How many phone calls will you be on today in trying to get accomplished what you want to at Memphis? Like we had Chris Collins join us earlier. Josh Passner, UNLV was like man, I walked in and I didn't have a team. So just how crazy will it be for you over these next couple of days with all the movement going on?

[Nolan Smith]

Yeah, well look, I have my wife of almost eight years now. We have a five year old, a four year old and a three month old just constantly looks at me as she's holding the baby or changing a diaper or doing something while I have my 4 year old son wrapped around her arm and then my 5 year old daughter screaming at her to do her hair or something crazy. And I'm just on the phone walking outside, in and out the house non stop. So my wife understands what it is right now she's a great scheme made and, and holds it down because I don't think I've taken my headset off where it's this constant phone calls with so many different people just trying to, trying to help coach Vinny Hardaway build a roster.

[Andy Gresh]

Have you gotten to the WOJ level of buying WI fi on every plane you're on to be able to text people and things like that or has it not gotten to that level of craziness?

[Nolan Smith]

It hasn't gotten to that point yet. I'd like to take that. Hopefully if I can send a text before I take off, hey, I'll get you an hour and hopefully within that hour flight or hour and a half flight, nothing is done but I'm pretty sure it's going to come to that point real soon.

[Andy Gresh]

Well coach, thanks for the time, we really appreciate it. And have a great off season and we'll catch you down the road here on ESPN Radio. Thanks a bunch.

[Nolan Smith]

Absolutely. Thank you.

[Andy Gresh]

Nolan Smith, Memphis assistant coach, a former teammate of John Shire at Duke. And I can't imagine, I mean, I, again, I just, I, I, I can't imagine. Little kid, littler kid, little kid, oldest of your youngest, little kids and they're all yelling and you're out there trying to quibble with somebody over $50,000 of nil money or something like that.

[Tim Welsh]

Yeah, I mean, they open the portal during the tournament and these coaches, usually you can go to the tournament and you get ready for, you prepare and you enjoy the tournament. But talking to some of the coaches that were in Providence a couple weeks ago for the first and second round, their off time was not spent on the beautiful Federal Hill, the restaurants of Federal Hill. It was spent in the meeting rooms going over the portal and who was in, who was out, who. We can get what the numbers are. How do we make the numbers work? And that's just, that's today's world that we're in and these guys are in it two feet in.

[Andy Gresh]

Doesn't the NCAA need to move the Porter, the, the, the port? I mean, that, that feels like something that should be easily done. Can we move it outside of our tournament? That makes us an unbelievable amount of money or am I nutty in thinking that.

[Tim Welsh]

Well, they can do that. But Andy, I'm not sure that will solve it because of the fact that these guys all have agents now and the agents are working the back room deals way before the portal even opens. So everybody knows who's going into the portal, everybody knows what the numbers are way before the portal even actually opens, before you can secure deals. I mean, you know the deal. That's kind of how the NFL works and free agency as well. I mean, they have the drop dead date, but everything gets done way before then.

[Andy Gresh]

Yeah, they need a tampering period then I guess officially where they could. What the NFL is quote unquote trying to do. Hey, ESPN plus fans, you can unlock endless entertainment and listening options with this Great offer. Stream 6 months of Sirius XM on us and enjoy your favorite music ad. Free plus talk that speaks to you, side splitting comedy, breaking news, every kind of podcast, and even more of your favorite teams and sports. All you need is an active ESPN plus subscription. Get the offer today at espnplus.com SiriusXM and eligibility and offer details apply. We'll look ahead to the national championship games. Plus, have we seen the end of Cinderella. We'll talk about it next with the coach, Tim Welsh. I'm Andy Grash. This is Countdown to Tip off on ESPN Radio and the ESPN app. Matt and Myon the pod.

[Tim Welsh]

Wow, this house is cute, but can.

[Andy Gresh]

I really get in the game in this economy?

[Tim Welsh]

I do have savings and I am responsible. Ish. I should bury it.

[Andy Gresh]

I'm being wild.

[Tim Welsh]

But what if I'm not being wild, though? Could I actually score a kickoff your home buying journey with Zillow's new buyability tool. It makes it easy to find out what you can afford so you can get off the bench and onto the playing field with confidence. Check your buyability only on Zillow.

[Nolan Smith]

Rapper Sean Diddy Combs was a king maker.

[Andy Gresh]

He had wealth, fame and power until.

[Nolan Smith]

It all came crashing down.

[Tim Welsh]

Federal investigators raiding two homes owned by hip hop moguls Sean Diddy Combs.

[Andy Gresh]

I'm Brian Buckmire, an ABC News legal contributor. As Diddy heads to trial, we trace.

[Tim Welsh]

His remarkable rise and fall.

[Nolan Smith]

And what could be next?

[Andy Gresh]

Listen to Bad Rap the Case Against.

[Nolan Smith]

Diddy, a new series from ABC Audio. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Andy Gresh]

3:00 Eastern today it'll be South Carolina against UConn for the women's national championship. And then of course, on Monday night, Houston will take on Florida for the men's national championship. Bringing it down the stretch here, bringing it home on the countdown to tip off here on ESPN Radio, the ESPN app, SiriusXM Channel 80. We are presented by Progressive Insurance and coach, I know that you and I have given a, a, a lot of thoughts today. But you know, let's hear from a, a, a couple of other folks I know then on espn, the family of networks, we will have the Sue Bird and Diana Tarazi show that'll be going on during the national championship game. And you know, they're, they're probably no better. Two people waltzing around planet earth who could talk about winning women's national championships the way that those two can. And Diana Tarazi has won three national titles. She was on SportsCenter with Scott Van Pelt and it was asked about the earlier matchup between UConn and South Carolina. Does anything translate?

[Tim Welsh]

It's going to be a completely different game. Whatever that game was, you know, back in whatever January, it's going to be a completely different game. I mean, both teams are playing in a different way, a different style. So whatever happened in that game, whatever you thought you can take and hey.

[Josh Pastner]

Maybe we'll go back to that, that's.

[Tim Welsh]

Not Going to be there.

[Andy Gresh]

Coach, you buying that a little bit.

[Tim Welsh]

I just think, you know, once you tee it up, there's going to be confidence on both ends. There's going to be a little bit of edge from South Carolina to not let happen what happened in the first game. And that's where UConn just ran up and down the floor. And the part, you know, the Geno part is important, that he's not going to let his team feel overconfident because of that game. So I think once they get going up and down the floor, it's going to be really a game of schemes and how South Carolina control the temple. If they can control the temple, then they can hang with UConn. If they don't, then Yukon can run up and down the floor and we'll run past them again.

[Andy Gresh]

Is there anything to kind of like win one for the Gipper, win one for Paige here with Yukon?

[Tim Welsh]

Oh, yes, absolutely. I think she's just adored by her teammates because she's just a, a superstar who is just a great teammate. And you can see that if you're within inside the program. Gino just, he talks glowingly about her as a teammate, as a person, of course, as a player. We all see what we see as a player. But all the other stuff, and there's a reason they're there today, because of the fact that she's a superstar who is a great teammate and they would love to send her out with that. And it's been an up and down ride because of all the injuries the last couple of years to herself and to Az Fudd. And now they're complete. So they're trying to complete the task not only for UConn and for themselves and for this particular team, but for Paige as well.

[Andy Gresh]

And, and understandable because it's the only thing, really the only box Paige Beckers has not checked in her storied career. We also got Houston against Florida and we know that Clayton had a big game for Florida. Houston with the improbable comeback against duke. Seth Greenberg, ESPN college basketball analyst on SportsCenter, talking about how to shut down Florida's Clayton Jr. I mean, Calvin Sampson's, he's gonna, he's trapping Walter Clayton. He's gonna blow up all those dribble handouts. Look, in his mindset he said, that guy cannot beat us. Now look, I, I understand that and I think Auburn tried to do that, that by denying him on the wing, but he, he just keeps working and working without the ball and he makes tough, guarded shots. He had 12 contested shots today. He made six of them. I'm talking about contested shots. Well, and the other thing that stood out to me, coach, is Walter Clayton Jr. Not afraid to go into the, well, I guess whatever we call bigs nowadays in modern college basketball. But he's not afraid to go into the paint and take it hard to the rim and live with the result. Because you know that that can end up badly and you get knocked down hard.

[Tim Welsh]

Well, it can end up battling when you're playing Houston for sure that's where they really will collapse on him. He's going to have to make the passes first and see if his teammates can make shots from the perimeter because that's what Houston and Seth is correct, they're going to take away what he does well first. But then as the game progresses, if other guys can step up, then that's when he can open up his bag of tricks and, and make contested shots. And it's going to be hard to double him in the middle of the floor. Now Houston will double him on the wing on those handoffs, on those side ball screens. But I would imagine Florida spaces court so they give him more room to operate. Maybe get him in some switches or maybe even if they do trap him, it's very difficult. They're going to trap him. But still he's very good at keeping his dribble alive and attacking, probing the defense, going inside, then back out, finding the open man or finding shots for himself.

[Andy Gresh]

And who will control the pace? Will Florida be able to go up tempo or will Houston be able to slow them down? And I'm sure that's got to be a part of slowing down Walter Clayton Jr. And then finally we have Jay Williams and coach, I know you and I have touched on this a little bit. Is this the end of the Cinderella? Well, Jay Williams just loves where college basketball is at right now.

[Nolan Smith]

I love where the game is at and don't get me wrong, I don't mind a Cinderella. I love the storytelling and for like the average viewers that get a chance to listen to the Loyola Chicago's and all these stories it's a great feel because all the morning shows run with it. But from just like a baske purist we get the best product at the.

[Tim Welsh]

Time where the game is the most visible.

[Nolan Smith]

Like to me that is now I.

[Josh Pastner]

Want to see who the real winner is.

[Nolan Smith]

Like this to me feels like I'm finding out who the best team like think about like when we get champions.

[Josh Pastner]

You can say oh, they had the.

[Nolan Smith]

Easiest way, easiest pathway, whatever it might be.

[Tim Welsh]

But now I find like we're finding.

[Nolan Smith]

Out if we get some of these top teams coming in, like who the best team is and that's rare in.

[Tim Welsh]

A one game series.

[Nolan Smith]

It's rare.

[Tim Welsh]

But we're going to find that out this weekend coming up.

[Andy Gresh]

And coach, I know I started with this for those folks who are not thrilled about the first weekend of the NCAA tournament in terms of the lack of upsets, your payoff is this Final Four in national title.

[Tim Welsh]

Absolutely. You've got the best of the best. There's no doubt about that. There's no, there's no fake teams, that's for sure, or teams that just go on a great run and listen, there's nothing against that. There's, we saw it last year, NC State. That was a fun story in itself. But I think every year there's a different story and you can make some good out of it because the tournament always rises up to always satisfy and this year has been no different.

[Andy Gresh]

Who wins? Coach, I got Houston. I had him in the beginning of the year in the bracket, so I'm sticking with it.

[Tim Welsh]

I'm going with Houston as well. This team as a, is a team of destiny. There's no doubt about it in my mind. They showed that last night. I think Kelvin Sam's going to seal the deal and walk into the hall of Fame after, after tomorrow night because he is just an unbelievable coach. As Jim Boeheim said, he's the coach of the last five years for sure.

[Andy Gresh]

Well Coach, this has been a blast. Thanks to everyone who joined us. Coach, it was great working with you again. Good job by James and Mikey and everybody who pulled it together. We're out of here. Thanks for listening to Matt and Myron the Podcast. You can listen to the show live every Sunday morning at 10am Eastern on ESPN radio, the ESPN app and on SiriusXM channel 80. Matt and Myron the Podcast.

[Tim Welsh]

Hey, I'm Brad Milkey. You may know me as the host.

[Andy Gresh]

Of ABC Audio's daily news podcast Start Here.

[Tim Welsh]

But I'd like to add aspiring true crime expert to my resume and here's how I'm going to make it happen. Every week I'm going to unpack the biggest true crime story that everyone is talking about. ABC's got some unique access here, so I'll talk to the reporters and producers who have followed these cases for months, sometimes years will bring you the latest developments and the larger context on the true crime stories you've been hearing about. Follow the crime scene for special access to the people who know these stories best.