← Sunday Sports Club with Allison Kuch
Sunday Sports Club with Allison Kuch
Trying our best and failing at everything with guest Cameron Rogers
01:06:25
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- [00:00]
A
The following podcast is a Dear Media Production.
- [00:03]
B
What's up, guys? Welcome back to Sunday Sports Club podcast. I have a very exciting guest here today, Cameron Rogers, host of Conversations with Cam podcast and author of Quiet your mind and busier hands, A journal and adult coloring affirmation book Cam. Welcome to Sunday Sports Club podcast.
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A
I'm so excited to be here.
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B
How are you doing today?
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A
I am. How am I doing today? I'm really tired. We. We haven't had great sleep, but you know when you're so delirious that you're like, I just have to push through. There's no other option. That's kind of how I am today.
- [00:43]
C
Absolutely. Yeah.
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B
It's like one of those days where you're like, okay, how much coffee can I get in my house?
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A
Literally, I get like preemptive anxiety sometimes. I don't know if you do, but like last night going to bed, I'm like, I know he's not going to sleep. Well, my youngest and I have a 7:30 train tomorrow in three interviews and meetings. And I'm just like making myself anxious and I had to talk myself down and be like, just, you'll. You'll get through. You'll be exhausted. You'll do it, whatever, it's fine. Just. The only way out is through. So that's how we're feeling. We're just, we're just pushing through.
- [01:16]
B
Yes. So to my audience, you are a mother of two boys.
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A
Yes.
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B
And you also, like, podcast. You do all these things. So I can only imagine. Well, actually, no, I, I can fully imagine because I'm like, you do it too.
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C
Yeah.
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B
I forgot about her for a second. So it's so crazy because I feel like the even just like coming on, like filming this podcast, like I'm sitting in a house I moved into a week ago, but we all had the flu when we moved in. And becoming a mother, I've quickly, like threw my perfectionism into the trash can.
- [01:53]
A
You have to. Because.
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B
Because there's no way you can be a perfectionist as a parent.
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A
No. Or you're just setting yourself up to fail, in my opinion. Like, I would just constantly feel like I'm failing.
- [02:04]
C
Exactly.
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B
Which I feel like is also. Actually, I made a TikTok about that yesterday. I was like, I feel like I'm failing in everything, but I'm like giving my best at the same time.
- [02:12]
A
I go through. I. I really go through those phases deeply. I. Specifically, when I ovulate, I get very depressed. I have pmdd.
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B
And that when I saw you Post.
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C
A video about that.
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A
I just get so sad. And honestly, it's like a feeling of failure, but it's really intertwined in my self worth. It's very confusing. I do a lot of therapy on it, but I deeply resonate to the feeling of like I'm trying my best and I feel like I'm failing at everything. And I think that happens the most when I am juggling too much. Like you just mentioned you just moved. Like, of course you feel overwhelmed. Moving in general is overwhelming. Add in a kid, add in your work. Like, there's so much going on and I feel that when there are too many things and I'm trying to do too many things at once, which is honestly this week for me as well, that's when I feel like I'm not able to give what I want to give to everything. And it's not that I'm actually failing, it's just I'm not meeting my own personal standards.
- [03:11]
B
Absolutely. I. Because I feel like you have an idea of like what you want to accomplish in your day or in your the next few weeks, in the next few months. And when you don't hit that, it's like, okay, like, how am I doing in all these other areas? I feel like I'm giving my all in one area. But I'm excited to talk with you because I feel like a lot of moms have resonated with like me getting my pink back and that journey. And so I'm excited to talk with a mom who is working, who is posting on social media and touching all these different areas, but is also very transparent about like mental health and like struggles that you're going through. Because I think that transparency is huge when it comes to social media and I find my audience loves that. So I'm excited to talk more with you. So kind of give a background to like who you are, like a gist of your story.
- [04:05]
A
Okay, I'll take you back, but I'll try to make it as fast as possible. I am originally from Jersey. I say that because it's my favorite place in the world and I feel very passionately about that. I played sports my whole life. I played lacrosse through college, and I graduated and started working in sales and trading. So I was on Wall Street. I was selling municipal bonds for anyone that really cares, but it's not that interesting. And I did that for five years and I loved it. And I feel like it was really fitting for my personality. It was high, like fast paced, high intensity, competitive. All of the things that I had within me. But it also turned up the dial on some of my not so great characteristics, which is like, you know, very intense, very fast paced, like my way or the highway, go, go, go. And with that I was deeply struggling with my mental health and I was just kind of starting to notice and get the verbiage and wherewithal to realize that. And I was going through all of these digestion, digestive issues and meeting with all these gastros and being put on all these diets and all this. And it was around this time that between that spending so much money on food in New York City, living on my own for the first time like outside of college, and also feeling this, like I want to control. I feel so out of control. What can I control? It all kind of led me to food and there was good intention there. I don't think the impact ended up being great because I struggled a bit with like orthorexia, but I began cooking a ton. And through that I was making all of my meals for work and I was meal planning a little obsessively, but whatever and meal prepping and doing all these things and. And this was kind of the birth of the like food porn account in New York. Like it was 2016 maybe. And I was like, what if I can like get free meals at a restaurant? How cool would that be? So I started this account which was freckled foodie. Now is my name Cameron Oates Rogers. And it was really like some restaurants, but primarily meals that I was making to bring into the office and what I was prepping and how I was going about all that, it was never my face. I kept myself completely separate. I didn't want like people at work to, even though I told them about it, I didn't want my like clients to know I was still young. And I was also embarrassed by it. Like we didn't really have influencers like we do today. And so the more I started doing it, the more interested I became in the food aspect of things. And it became this creative outlet for me. And I kind of have two speeds, which is like 0 or 100. And so I do like head into all of it. And I was like waking up at like 4:30 in the morning to like work on it, to go to the gym before I was at my desk at 6:30 to work all day, to come home to work all night, like all weekend. I would send all my friends a menu and then they would tell me what they wanted and I'd spend all weekend cooking for them. Like, I guess this is what I did with my time before I had kids. I don't fucking know.
- [06:56]
B
I always wonder what I did with my time. Right?
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A
Clearly, I. I couldn't sit still, and that's still an issue. And I started doing all of this, and it was really this driving interest in this, like, other side of my life in terms of wellness. And I kind of had this dream of, like, how could I make this something? But again, we weren't seeing influencers like we are today, where you knew it could be a career. And again, I was not making any money on my account. And so I kind of hung that up and was like, maybe one day I'll return to that. But, you know, I had such ego wrapped up in my job and my job title, and I wore it like a badge of honor. And I was also making really good money, and I was doing well at my job there, and I liked it. I ended up getting hit by a car while I was crossing the street, which is, like, crazy. A whole separate story that really sparked this whole change for me because I ended up being on disability. I had, like, my sixth concussion, and I wasn't cleared to go back to work for, like, two months. And at that time, I started meditating, I started journaling, and I really dug into. I have all of these things that I ever dreamed of. Why am I so anxious and sad? Like, what. What is happening here? And I will never have this least amount of responsibility in my life. I come from financial privilege that allowed me this opportunity to take this leap of faith, and why not try? Like, the corporate world isn't going anywhere. So I went back to work and I sat my boss down, and I was like, I'm quitting. And he was like, what are you doing? And I was like, I'm going to go do something on Instagram. And, like, he definitely thought it looked at me like I had 10 heads. Like, immediately dismissed the idea, but whatever, here I am. So that was in 2018. And originally when I started, I was doing actually meal prepping for people at home because, again, I wasn't making any money on my social media yet. So I was, like, going to their houses, like, prepping meals for them, stocking their fridge, cleaning up, getting all the groceries, all of that. Like, it feels like a different life. And leaning into social media more. And the more I then started to peel back the curtain on myself and my mental health and talk about those things. This was when Instagram stories kind of were introduced in video form and people were talking to the camera. That was when I really found, like, I was cultivating and connecting with people. And that was the first realization that you're not alone. And that was a big thing for me. I feel like I felt so lonely in a city that was filled with so many people I loved.
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C
Right.
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A
And why did I feel this way? And there was no way anyone else felt like I did. And the more I shared about it, the more I realized, oh, other people have the same emotions, and no matter what you're going through, you're never alone in that. And so it kind of led me to share more on that, and I eventually leaned more into mental health. I then got pregnant, and that rocked me. And so I did a whole look what the is happening to my body series. And I was very brutally honest about not enjoying pregnancy. And then all of the crazy things that happened in the science experiment of our body during those nine to 14 months. And then I also shared very openly about my struggles with postpartum, my first go around, and ever since then, my content, because also, we just evolve as humans. Like, it's shifted more towards motherhood. I've shared my journey of my second pregnancy now, being a mom to two boys. So that's kind of my short story of where I am. And along that journey, I started my show. So here we are. Wow.
- [10:24]
B
It's crazy hearing somebody with not even, like, I would say, like, our storylines kind of feel similar because I worked, like, a very normal job. And I remember leaving my job with the intention of, like, oh, I'm gonna eventually make money on social media. And my fiance at the time looked at me like I was crazy. He was like, you have a thousand followers.
- [10:45]
C
Like, what do you mean?
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A
Literally, I think I had 3, 000 followers when I quit.
- [10:49]
B
No, exactly. So I'm like, what? What was I thinking? But it's almost like that, like, it's. It's you thinking, like, you believing in yourself so hard. You're almost, like, manifesting that life. You're like, I'm not gonna let anything get in my way. And so I can resonate with that so hard. And it's also crazy to hear of, like, this whole background to how you got to where you're at now.
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A
Yeah, it is. And I will say one thing about me is, like, I'm scrappy as hell. Like, I will outwork anyone you put me in a room with, and I've always been that way. And I vividly remember before I brought this idea to my parents, not that I needed their, like, approval I wasn't getting money from them, but I, I obviously wanted their support and it was a big deal to leave a job that, like, they also really were proud of me for. But, like, yeah, like, I sat down with my then fiance. Yeah, we were engaged. We've been together since we were 16, so we'd been together for a long time. We were engaged. So we were obviously, like, about to begin the rest of our lives together. So it was a joint decision in the sense that I was going to leave, especially because I was making the money at that point. And he turned to me and was like, if you were someone that spent all day sitting on a couch, had to be told what to do, like, couldn't get you to do anything on your own. I don't think this would be the best move, being your own boss. But I want you tirelessly pour into these ideas, like, you'll, you'll figure it out. And if you don't, you can go back, like, again. There's so much privilege in that statement. However, the corporate world and certain opportunities, like, aren't going anywhere. I do believe that. And I said to him and to my parents when I eventually told them I was going to do this, like, if all else fails, look at it as like a crash course on, like a mini mba. You wear so many hats when you go to do something for yourself that you learn so much hands on that you would have never learned otherwise. Like, I use platforms today. I have no idea. I would have never known how to do that. Like, five years ago, before I spent hours on YouTube learning how to do these things.
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B
I. And I think that's where it's hard to. I feel like when people ask, like, oh, how do. How do I get to, like, where you're at? And I feel like there has to be this, like, fire inside of you that like, takes no. Like, never takes no for an answer. If you don't know how to do something, you're gonna put all of your time and energy into figuring it out. Watching YouTube tutorials or talking to people, phone call, like, there is no. Like, no for an answer is just not acceptable.
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A
No, I say it's a no for now. Like, that's fine.
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C
We'll see.
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B
So on your whole social media journey is, you're very transparent and I commend you for that because I know it's like, not hard to always be transparent and then. But at the same time, sometimes I feel like I'm transparent and I'm like, I feel like I'm talking to Nobody. But then you have people resonating. So is there anything that you're like, oh, I don't, I don't like sharing that part of my journey on social media or this, this. Like I'm struggling with this, but I probably don't share too much about that.
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A
Yeah. So I, this has changed over the years. In the beginning I was very much like, here's everything and all real time. Because again, I had a smaller following, like it was safer legitimately. Like I wasn't getting, you know, certain responses. And then I hit a point where you started. I started to be met with like a few negativity and I was like, oh, wait a second, like this is now feeling weird because it's about something very personal to me. And like, as I started to grow, I really started to assess what am I comfortable sharing? And like, where am I setting boundaries? And I used to not have any boundaries and I think that they're pivotal in all aspects of your life. So I find it fascinating. And I was just talking about this with someone that as consumers we fully like believe that we have this inside look to a whole 360 picture of someone based on their social media. And I totally understand why it's easy to believe that. But then I realize in very specific situations and I'll like, whether it's my relationship with my older sister, you know, she's way more private than my younger sister. So my younger sister's always on my social media. Do I see and talk to them equally? Yes, but people's perception, I'll get messages like, why aren't you ever with your older sister? And I'm like, I'm literally with her right now. I'm just not posting her. Like we get to choose what we share. So I have chosen that if it's my journey and my story and it's not impacting those who I love and care about, then I'm comfortable sharing it. If there's something going on with my husband's family that's not for me to share, even if it's deeply impacting me and it's hard for whatever reason and I'm going through an experience with them that's not my journey. Same thing with certain aspects of my inner family relationship. Same things with my children. Like there are certain things I experience that maybe I'll share later down the road. Like I've shared it now that this is a small example, but my toddler had to get his tonsils removed. At the time I was like, this just feels weird. Like, I'm not posting content about that. That feels weird to me. And it feels like it's his thing. And I've said it now in passing so that people can message me if they're going through it, because it was something I could have never prepared myself for. But I just feel like if it's my story and my journey, I'm okay sharing it. And I feel comfortable being transparent and honest and vulnerable and it's not this forced thing. That's just how I've always been. I've always been lay all my cards on the table. If you don't like it, that's fine. I'd rather you not like me for something that I've said or, like, it's all out there and then you can decide. Yeah, in a weird way, that's how I've always been. I'm like, here are all my cards. Take it or leave it. Rather than a misunderstanding of sorts. But I do definitely set boundaries around certain my family and friends. Even, like every time I'm on a trip, I turn to all my friends and I'm like, okay, I just want to know for this weekend who's comfortable being in my pictures, who's comfortable being tagged. If you're not comfortable, tell me exactly, like, what do you never want on here? Because I don't ever want to put someone in a position. Like, I just want that to be their choice.
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C
Absolutely.
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B
And I think the part where you even say, like, if you, if I put everything out there and you judge me or don't like me for that, like, you're totally okay with that. I. It's funny, yesterday I received a comment on one of my TikToks and somebody said like, oh, I used to like you, but now you're giving. I think I'm a better mom than you vibe. And I was like, hold up, when have I. I was like, am I not. Am I not over sharing enough these days? Am I not crying enough on the Internet? Because when the did I think I was better than ever, I literally texted my husband and I said, I'm pretty sure our daughter hates me over this past weekend. So it was like, it's so crazy that like this narrative on social media, like, if, if you share it, it.
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C
Goes into your story, but if you.
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B
Don'T share something, people automatically are going to have an opinion one way or the other. And so it's like, okay, so I want to share this whole picture. I want to over share because I want people to feel like, yeah, hopefully, hopefully feel like I'm not, I don't think I'm better than them. But also just to like have a place that like you never are going to feel judged when it comes to my content like you, you can feel seen when watching this content.
- [18:15]
C
The older I get, the more attention I pay to ingredients in not only my food but also supplements too. And JS Health is one of my favorite supplement brands not only because of their ingredients but because they actually I've used their detox and debloat for a few years now. I always bring them on vacations and really anytime I travel because you know I have a little bit of a sensitive tummy. And if you've never heard of JS Health before, they are known around the world for their transformational science backed supplements that deliver results. The thing that makes them so effective is that they use the highest quality ingredients at therapeutic doses based on meticulous research. Born in Australia and formulated by expert nutritionist Jessica Sepell, there's a targeted vitamin or supplement for all your needs. Skin digestion, stress, sleep, hair growth and so much more. I've used a few of their supplements and their detox in Deep Blow is their tried and true. And like I mentioned earlier, I'm kind of obsessed with it. It's always getting packed on any vacation, especially the ones that involve a swimsuit because again sensitive tummy. It has a double benefit approach to reduce bloating and support natural detoxification processes based on traditionally used ingredients. Their vegan friendly formula contains a unique blend of carefully selected actives including turmeric, milk thistle, fennel at a research backed supplement dose which cherry on top. It's also clean label certified. So if you guys are Interested, visit jshealth vitamins.com sundae and use code Sunday Sunday to receive 20% off your order or first subscription order. I have the fondest memories of Easter growing up. My family always does a huge brunch. I'm talking cinnamon rolls and bagels, eggs, pancakes and then we all get dressed up and we all go out to church and it's just one of my favorite memories growing up as a kid I feel like it was like okay, winter's over, spring is here. Like bright beautiful colors. And you know where I'm heading before Easter this year? I'm heading to Macy's because Macy's has it all with outfits to choose from for the whole family. Not only me as a woman looking for a dress or a cute set, but also for my husband as well. They have a huge suit selection and Again, something for the whole family. So I'm sure we can find something for Scotty there too. But not only clothes, they also have great home decorations. I've shopped for home decor there so many times before and it's great just to like refresh, especially when spring is right around the corner. There's so much prep that goes into hosting people, especially for Easter this year because we have a new house. They truly have everything that I need to host and decorate. I can't wait to get the Le Creuset mini cet in this gorgeous pastel pink color. My color is coming out okay, guys. Like, especially after having a girl. I feel like I've been so obsessed, obsessed with adding color in not only to my wardrobe, but also to my home decor. And I'm gonna do that at Macy's. So whether you're looking for a bright floral dress or a tweed suit, casual dressing, men's shoes, kids dresses, Macy's truly has it all. But that's just their clothes. They also have a ton of home food, prep, dining, decorations, hosting decor, candy, kids toys. I mean, again, everything that you can think of. So be sure to shop in store and online@macy's.com and the event dates are until April 20th. Easter.
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A
I feel like. Have you read. I know everyone's talking about it, but the let them theory.
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B
I haven't read it, but I've listened to like one of the podcasts, clips of it.
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A
Okay. I have always felt a certain way and then listening to that just really confirmed a lot of my beliefs around certain things where I'm like, if I think about every creator I see and this is how I have to remember it. Of course I don't like all of them and that's okay. Like I don't actually have ill will feelings to them where I'm gonna like go write something on their page. I think that's kind of crazy. But of course we're not gonna like everyone we see. We're not gonna connect with every single human in this universe. That's insane seen to ever believe that. So in my mind I'm just kind of like, okay, if I put it all out there and people don't like me, that's fine. That's more their story because of whatever it is that's upsetting them. And I can accept that when I see something and I'm like, oh God, it's triggering something in me. And so I can then flip it and be like, it's just triggering something in them. Maybe they're Struggling with something that you are not struggling with. And if it seems seamless to you, they feel less than for whatever reason. But if you then share every single struggle under the sun that you're going through, someone's going to be like, oh, you do is complain. So for me, it's just like, you can't win. So you just.
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B
Very true.
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A
You let them. And also, I just meet it with so much sympathy because I'm like, don't you have a group text to text that to? Why? Why are you calling it to me?
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B
That's where my anxiety really stems from. I'm like, there. This is probably in a group chat somewhere. Like, oh, she thinks she's better than us bother.
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A
Me being in a group chat, it's like, whatever. I had to work through that. When I first. I don't know if you had this. When I first started content, I was like envisioning this very specific group. Like in college, there were two main sororities that like, quote unquote beefed. And I just remember being like, there's no way I'm not in that DG group chat. And I just accepted it. And then I think I've just had to live with that for the rest of this content creation career as somebody.
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B
Who'S a people pleaser, that I can't think too much about it because I'm like, there is somewhere and I'm in a group chat and I don't feel comfortable with that. So I just need to ignore that. And you know what? I'm just gonna keep sharing and act like nobody's actually watching my content.
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A
You have to, you have to, you have to.
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B
So speaking of struggle, you kind of touched on like your first postpartum experience. And I, as a mom of one.
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C
I'm so curious to hear how your.
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B
How your two postpartum experiences differentiated or if they did.
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A
Yeah, wildly. So my first postpartum experience, again, I had always struggled with anxiety and, like, bouts of depression, but I was someone who was so excited to get pregnant, like, really annoying about it. I was like my body crazed being pregnant. I can't wait to have a bump. And then I despised all of it, minus, like three weeks. And so that was my first rude awakening to, like, reality being different than my expectations, which is something I historically struggle with. But this was the first foray into that being true for motherhood. And I had always thought that postpartum depression looked like they put the baby on your chest and you don't feel connection, which that can be a side of postpartum depression. Or you could experience it later. Or you could experience that lack of connection instantaneously, which happens to many and is okay and not struggle with postpartum depression. But I had been working with my psychiatrist and therapist because I'm on medication and my husband leading up to my delivery of like, okay, here are things that you should look out for. Like, I want you to be aware of it also, like, I just want to make sure that everyone's prepared. And the first three months with my first were during. It was May 2021. So we had just gotten vaccinated and we were in this, like, New York City is back the summer. Like, it was all of a sudden as if Covid didn't exist. It was right before the second wave. But Covid still very much existed for us because we had a newborn. So there was this underlying anxiety that I just thought was motherhood. And then I realized was not because I experienced a, like post Covid baby the second go around. But anytime anyone was in the apartment visiting or anytime we saw someone, it was like this bubble of fear for the next three days that we were going to get a text of being like, oh my God, I just tested positive. Or I just found out I was with someone. Like, there was so much unknown around that. And I was having really intense, intrusive thoughts, which looked like having these, I call them final destination visions. I don't know if you ever watched those movies when we were young, but I would literally see myself doing something horrible to my son. Whether it was like smacking his head into the door or dropping him on the countertop or the floor or like, it was really. It's very interesting after many therapy sessions to unpack. It was very head trauma related, which is my own baggage. It was never like, oh, he falls and breaks his arm. It was always his head. And I, you know, the classic wake up in the middle of the night, think he's wrapped up in my sheets, Even though he was never sleeping in our bed. Like, it was so intense. And a lot of it was also tied to sleep deprivation because it was just the three of us in our apartment during this time. And I worked through that, but I didn't feel depressed at this time. We kind of were in this like, newborn bubble. He was. I just, I loved him so deeply. It was never like, I didn't love him. And I just Remember around month 4 or 5 ish, when I started to kind of return. Not that I ever really took off work, but I was doing more outside of the house having these moments of just deep, deep sadness and just wanting to not disappear. I never wanted. I was never like, ideating on suicide, but I just was okay with not existing. Like, I was okay with just disappearing into this couch. And specifically, I remember my husband coming up. We were at the beach at my parents house and we were all having a good night and I just kind of like left and went inside and he came upstairs and I was in. On this couch in a room just dark, not reading, not on my phone, not watching anything. And he was like, what's going on? And I was like, I just don't want to do anything. Like, I don't want to talk to anyone. I don't want to consume anything. I just don't even know what I want to do but sit here and kind of melt. And that was the first realization of like, I don't think everything's right here. So for me, it was really months, like five to nine when I struggled with my postpartum depression. And it was very deeply tied into the identity crisis of matrescence. And who am I and what do I do now? What do I care about? What is my life like? What do I even talk about? And I think there's this misunderstanding with postpartum depression that you don't like your kid.
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B
Not that that's my least favorite assumption.
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C
Yeah.
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A
But I think that it's so historically what we've kind of seen or like ideated on. And for me it was like, you are the only thing that matters. Like, you are my shining light to the point where still people got really upset when I said this, but I stand by it, so that's okay. With my first. I feel this connection in the sense that, like, not that he's my soulmate, but, like, he got me through the darkest times and he was my shining light. And my second is like my best friend because I'm like, we have so much fun together because I'm not so deeply sad. And like, he brought me so much joy and I love them equally. It's a different type of love. And I think that those relationships will just continue to grow and blossom in whatever way they tend to be. Like, I think it's unrealistic to believe that we all have the same relationship with our parents. Like, I have a different relationship with my mom than my sisters do. And so I found that focusing on myself, focusing on, find, finding joy in like, very small things, just like, prioritizing things that made me happy, upping my medication, cutting back on things that simply weren't serving me deeply helped with my mental health. And then my second go around, I.
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B
Was obviously very, just like leading into it. Like, were you nervous about getting pregnant?
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A
Were you nervous?
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B
Well, because you also didn't enjoy pregnancy.
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A
Yeah. So he was a surprise.
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B
Okay.
- [30:17]
A
So I think had it not been a surprise, we were kind of like in talks of, you know, I think we wanted another kid. It was never we wanted one. And my first son, they're two and a half years apart, so I don't know. He was almost two when I got pregnant and I think it was like on the horizon. We had always said maybe a three year age gap. But I know me, yes, it would have been hard for me to be like, I'm ready because even now, my husband, I talk about this, we want a third. I don't know when I'm ever going to feel like I'm ready to put my career or my life on pause for a year and a half to two years because that's kind of where.
- [30:50]
B
I'm at right now. I'm like, okay, it's what happens.
- [30:53]
C
Yeah.
- [30:54]
B
You know, you want another one, but you're like, I like, you know what you're getting yourself into this time.
- [30:59]
A
Yeah. And so it was like a, like, I know everyone's like, how could it possibly be a surprise? It very surprised. Okay. Like, I made one error. I did not expect it to end up in a child and I'm so glad it did, but I was very surprised. And so I think that helped me because I didn't have that anxiety buildup of like, am I ready to do this again? My second pregnancy was more depressive then my first. My first was more anxiety provoking. My second felt more depressive. But then my postpartum, I mean, was hard because it was postpartum and I was navigating like a newborn. And we had our own challenges, but mentally I felt so much better and it was such a relief because I was so scared. And that was something I was really afraid of. Like, I was very, very afraid of returning back to that. But I just felt so much more confident as a mom. I think the biggest thing is that I had the wherewithal to know that it's not permanent. Like every phase that's hard is temporary and you move through it. And it didn't feel as life altering and daunting as it did with my first. And I also didn't have that identity crisis because I was like, yeah, I'm a mom, I've been a mom. Like, I know what I'm doing. My life already around schedules and other things.
- [32:18]
B
So would you say that the transition from zero to one was harder than from one way?
- [32:23]
A
For me, yeah, logistically, obviously, one to two. Well, I mean, your life changes the most, in my opinion, from zero to one because you're going from complete independence to your world revolves around someone else.
- [32:35]
B
Absolutely.
- [32:36]
A
Logistically, 1 to 2 was harder because suddenly it like takes more to have any time for yourself. And I feel like one to two was harder for my husband. He always is. Like, you say that, but I don't know if that's true. And I'm like, no, I observed it. I think it was harder for him because from zero to one, his life didn't alter. Even though he's so heavily involved and we're very 50. 50. It just felt different. I don't. I can't. I still can't figure it out. But I have heard that 0 to 1 is harder on. Like in a heterosexual relationship, 0 to 1 is harder on the mom and 1 to 2 is harder on the dad because it seems like that has more of a life changing impact on them. I don't know why.
- [33:17]
B
Maybe because at that point it's like you both. Like, somebody needs to be attending to one of them.
- [33:23]
A
Like when I was breastfeeding, the first go around, not that he wasn't doing anything, he was like cleaning up and doing the pump parts and like all that other shit, but he also, like, didn't have a kid attached to him. And then the second go around, like, he just also always had a kid attached to him. And I'm like, yeah, welcome. Welcome to the ride.
- [33:39]
B
Like, this is great. So, like, do you think you, like, did any preparation for your second pregnancy or second postpartum that made a difference that you can like say, okay, that that made a difference that might help some moms.
- [33:54]
A
Yeah. I mean, medication is huge for me. Obviously, speak with your doctor. But, like, we were more preemptive on, like switching my dosages for my medication that I'm on help. We didn't have overnight help with our first, and I'm glad we didn't. I wouldn't have changed that, but we hired someone three nights a week for like six weeks with our second. Honestly, I would have done way more had I had the wherewithal to know that that will be more if we are blessed to have a third. But like, that even having those few nights where like I just got up once in the middle of the night to pump, like, that's such a privilege, but it's truly, if you have the means, like, I believe, such a worthwhile investment. And I know that people have many emotions and feelings around it, but I will just say I really enjoyed it. My husband and I also, from, like, night one, when we didn't have the help treated nights where I feel like with the first go around, we did everything together because we were so scared. Like, he'd be up sitting in bed while I was breastfeeding. Like, and I just remember him, like, kind of dozing off and me being like, wake up and like, there was no need for him to be awake. No.
- [35:06]
B
I fully made Isaac stay awake. And looking back now, I'm like, I just did that because I was like, I'm not doing this alone. Like, I'm not struggling alone. If I'm tired, you're tired. But that sounds stupid in hindsight. Like, one of us should not be tired.
- [35:19]
A
Well, exactly. That's what we learned. But also with the second, like, one of you has to be, like, kind of rested because you have another kid to care for.
- [35:25]
C
Yeah.
- [35:25]
A
So we would switch off nights, which, like, we started from the very beginning and was much more beneficial. Like, I was way more open. Not that I was ever closed off to formula the first go around, but we started it and introduced it earlier and did more of, like, combo feeding. I weaned a lot earlier my second go around. Just personally, that wasn't something that worked for my son and I the second time. I also think you're kind of forced to re. Enter life earlier with a second. And I'm not saying that that's always a good thing. Like, I think there is so much power to healing and taking the time. However, I was like, at my toddler's Halloween parade 10 days postpartum. I'm not gonna miss that, you know?
- [36:10]
C
Yeah.
- [36:11]
A
So you're kind of thrown back into life where I almost felt like I didn't have. This sounds so insane, but, like, I didn't have the time.
- [36:19]
B
Like, I'm busy.
- [36:21]
A
No, truly. Also, I had cut out alcohol when my first was around one. Maybe I forget. Honestly, it's almost like three years ago, so. Yeah. And that I think, just had, like, lasting effects on me.
- [36:34]
B
Oh, my gosh. That's actually so interesting. Especially as somebody who I'm very sober, curious. Like, I definitely had, like, my party phase in college. And then I feel like even when I freshly was married and now I'm like, that. Like, this one glass of wine won't serve me. Like, it's not going to do anything. I'm going to wake up tomorrow morning clear headed, not foggy. It's a very interesting dynamic that I feel like now is like more talked about especially on social media, like the relationship with alcohol and I find it so interesting.
- [37:07]
C
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- [42:21]
B
But I do want to go back to a part where you talked about formula for a second because I don't know, this was an. My own issue. Like, me having an issue with.
- [42:32]
C
I.
- [42:32]
B
If I, if a mom said that she was formula feeding, I would be like, oh, good for you. Fed is best. Like, yes, but you couldn't. Somebody ever tried telling me to use formula, I'd be like, no, I got this. Like, I exclusively pumped for an entire year. And I know the because towards like the last month, like, I was just not making enough and it was such a big deal that I made a formula bottle, half of my milk, half of formula, and I sat on the couch and I cried. Now thinking about my second child, I'm like, if I incorporated it at week two and then kept breastfeeding, it's not that big of a deal.
- [43:07]
C
But because you, like create this idea.
- [43:09]
B
In your head, especially with your first, you're like, you have an idea of what you're going to do, your mind is made up, you're going to do that. And then I feel like your second, you're like, I'm going to be kind to myself because this is a journey and we're going on this journey together. Why am I going to, like, set up expectations that I know I'm going to fail?
- [43:26]
A
I think also, well, in terms of formula feeding and breastfeeding, I always go back to this meme, like, tweet that I saw that was like, my son. I breastfed my son for two years and he still got a face tattoo. Feed your baby however the you want. And like, I think about it all the time because I'm like, why do we put so much pressure on ourselves to do something? And that's a whole separate conversation that I can get into around like baby friendly hospitals and like all of the things. But I just think if you find what works best for yourself and your family and truly yourself being the priority because a happy mom correlates to a happier child, then like it could. That's all that should matter. And for me, I remember like crying the first go around when I weaned, like, having our last feed because I actually loved. We struggled so much with our latch the first time. But then I loved breastfeeding. Like, it was so easy. I hated that my body was not my own, in a sense and I hated how engorged I got and my oversupply but the actual act, like my son would eat everywhere. He never spit up. He would do like such great feeding. And so I remember crying on the last feed and then when I like weaned and all that was behind me and we moved over to formula, I was like, wait, this is amazing. And my mental health, for me, it was like deeply tied to my mental health. And so I felt so much happier and better. And with my second, it was the complete opposite where we latched right away and he had so many digestive issues that like, it was like I was waterboarding him with a fire hose because I have such an intense letdown and oversupply and like, he couldn't keep up. So he would be the spit up was like nothing I've ever experienced in my life. And I just remember watching my husband give him a bottle at one point and noticing what a different experience it was in positive ways for everyone involved. And I'm like, what am I doing trying to force this thing that's literally not serving anyone here. And it's such a, it is such a badge of like, and I'm not saying any, this is anyone's doing. And there's no mal intent. But we do wear it as such a badge of honor because it's work to breastfeed. Like that can be true. Two things can be true.
- [45:44]
B
I full brag about exclusively pumping for a year because I consider that a full time job.
- [45:51]
A
It is, I mean, you have my utmost respect because I hate a pump. So it is something to be proud of and wear as a badge of honor and it's okay to not do it. And I think we have such a hard time as a society accepting duality of emotions around anything, even mother in general. Like, I love being a mom and it's fucking hard. And those two things can exist at once. And so it's the same thing around this conversation. It can be something that you should be so proud of and it's okay to not do it. And I think that that's where we lose people because it's really hard for us to accept. Like if someone who's formula feeding for instance, sees you being so proud of pumping for a year, they're like, well, fuck you. I, I, I didn't want to do it and now I'm less than and it, that's not true. It's just two different.
- [46:43]
B
No, and I think, I mean what you said, that the duality of two emotions. I can be proud of myself for making it to a year of exclusively pumping and still look at a mom in my same situation who their baby stopped latching at three months and them choosing formula instead and be like, oh, I'm proud of you for making that decision. But it, but I get, I get how people are like, oh, you're clearly bragging. I'm like, well, I feel proud of myself, but that doesn't mean I'm not proud of you.
- [47:11]
A
Yeah, exactly. It's confusing.
- [47:13]
B
It is very confusing. How was introducing a new baby to a toddler? I have an idea in my head and you can please, please correct me. I have this idea in my head.
- [47:26]
C
That two is going to be easier.
- [47:27]
B
Than one because at a certain age they're going to occupy each other's time.
- [47:31]
A
Yes. Okay, here's what I will say. I everything that was really hard about. And again, I can only speak from my experience and I, I realize that my kids will get older and I might bite my tongue, but what I will say to provide hope and I had a reel that like got so much traction on this in the sense of people being grateful is that everything that was really hard in the beginning about having two kids, I remember turning to my husband and saying, all of these hard parts will only get easier and all of these great parts will only get better. And it's so true. I'm a year, almost a year and a half into having two and all of the parts that were the hardest have gotten so much easier and all of the parts that I was excited for have continued to get so much better. So like our first is very loving, caring, docile, calm. Like he is a 70 year old man in a 3 year old's body. Anyone who meets him will say the exact same thing. Like, he's been here many of times before. He's an old soul. So I thought we would bring home this baby and he would be like so excited and loving and caring and want to be with him all day. He did not acknowledge our child for six months. And like, I'm not exaggerating, he maybe said hi to him when I brought him home from the hospital. And then he looked at me and was like, where did Maxine Paco go? My parents, because that's who he was with when we were at the hospital, like just immediately didn't care. And for six months I would have to be like, buddy, like, do you want to say hi? Like, come over here. It was just as if he didn't exist. Obviously it could have been worse. He could have been like hitting him or really angry. You know, we had the sleep Regression that everyone kind of experiences with their toddlers or most people. But he just didn't care. Like, he was really indifferent to it. And part of me was really upset. The other part of me was like, I guess this is kind of fine. Like, I don't think there's a negative to it. He has turned such a corner that truly melts my heart in every. Like, every time it happens, I'm blown away that this is my life of them just being so obsessed with each other. And now our tall. Our youngest is, like, walking and saying words, and so he's, like, walking after our oldest, just going, hug, hug, hug, hug. And our oldest is like, come here, baby. Give me hugs. Like, they are just attached at the hip. And our youngest copies everything our oldest does. And our oldest thinks it's the funniest thing in the world. And they are starting to occupy each other, which is such a turning point. Such a turning point for them to be able to kind of, like, interact. And what's it called when you're playing not side by side, but now you're playing together?
- [50:01]
B
They're, like, parallel.
- [50:04]
A
Into something. Playing. I guess maybe just watching them play is so joyful and wonderful. And I'm so close with my sisters that it just feels like such a gift for them to have that. And it is such a turning point of them to be able to, like, like, kind of just entertain each other to give me a beat.
- [50:26]
B
And as for being a boy mom, I've heard boy moms, like, really go through it in, like, the toddler phase. Is that true? Like, because everybody has this narrative that, like, boys are, like, so much more rambunctious and crazy and wild and jumping on your face. Is that true?
- [50:45]
A
Okay, first of all, the term boy mom I don't associate with personally. I'm just a mom to boys. Yep. I just think boy mom gets such a bad rep for a good reason. Like, I see some videos, I'm like, y'all are fudgeing crazy.
- [51:00]
B
Like, I'm fully terrified to have a boy because of this crying over, like.
- [51:05]
A
Your husband, your baby marrying someone when they're older. Like, what is going on? Like, get a grip. I can't wait. No, that's insane. So I love my sons with every fiber of my being, but I, like, very much feel I would feel the same if they were girls and, like, I would treat them the same way. But I do feel. No, I mean, again, my experience, my first is not at all gives toddler boy energy whatsoever. Like, everyone looks at him and they're like, he's the easiest kid in the entire world. My second is a bowl in a china shop. But, like, I watch him with my best friend's daughter, and she's just as fucking crazy as he is. So I just think it's your kid. I think that we've put these, like, gender stereotypes on children, and it's like, oh, boys are crazy. And they're never sitting still. Where, like, I have a son who will literally sit and play with his dolls, basically, like his figurines for three hours if I let him. That's just who he is. It's not that he's a boy or a girl. And my second can't sit still for five seconds. So that's the other thing. When we talk about, like, the difference of experiences and why the second time felt easier, you realize, at least I deeply did, because my two kids could not be more polar opposite, that no matter what you do, a kid's going to do what they want to fucking do. Like I did. Sorry. I've cursed so many times on the show.
- [52:25]
B
I curse all the time.
- [52:27]
A
I done the exact same things in terms of, like, sleeping for my two kids. My first was like 12 hours by 12 weeks. Golden Child always finished his naps like it was a dream. And I remember being like, anna, absolute best. Like, I rule. And then my second didn't sleep until he was maybe like six and a half months through the night without me. And I did the same thing. And it's just the kid is gonna be the kid. They are, and they're different. And you can throw the same at the wall and you're gonna get a different result. And I think that that helped me accept that it's all, I guess, in game.
- [53:05]
B
Quite honestly, I'm thoroughly impressed because my daughter is 14 months and has never slept 12 hours in her entire life.
- [53:13]
A
I mean, I. That's. I bow down to you because I don't know how you're functioning.
- [53:19]
B
No, I'm having an identity crisis about it now. I'm like, she should be sleeping through the night. What am I doing wrong?
- [53:24]
A
Every kid, okay. But that's honestly way more normal. And I think people just aren't talking about it because of exactly what you just said. They're like, oh, I must be doing something wrong. You're not. Your kid is just different. All of our kids are just different. You guys.
- [53:38]
B
Let it be known then. Let it be known. My daughter is currently sleeping in my bed every single night because she sleeps three hours in her crib. And then she literally won't stay in her crib.
- [53:47]
A
Right. So, like, I think that is way more common than people talk about. I mean, at least I know in my friend group it's very common. Yep. So for me, I will say that, like, I care deeply about sleep. I've never sleep trained, but, like, I have these kids on a schedule because it is so deeply tied to my mental health. And it's just something that, like, I have to prioritize for everyone in this household. But it's also, I think, very standard. What I said of, like, your kid not sleeping through the night, whether it's 12 weeks, whether it's six months, whether it's longer, like, every kid is going to be so different. And it also, your child's sleep does not directly determine whether you are a good mother. They are not correlated.
- [54:28]
B
Well, that's good to hear.
- [54:29]
A
I'm still.
- [54:30]
B
It's funny because you're like, I still.
- [54:31]
C
Feel the same way.
- [54:32]
B
It's interesting hearing that coming from another mom, but it's crazy because nothing will, like, touch the barrier. Like, you have an idea of your. In your head of like, what you're, what you believe. And anybody could say, it's like you looking in the mirror and saying, oh, I think this top makes me look fat. And everyone can say, no, you look great in that top. Oh, my God, that's your collar. No, that's so form fitting. But like, in your head you're like, no, my mind is made up. And so I think that's also. Motherhood is like, there are.
- [54:58]
C
It's so hard.
- [54:59]
B
I think that social media helps, like, listening to other moms tell their stories and being very transparent and talking very bluntly about subjects. But at the same time, like, there are some things that are like, so innately just like, your mind is made up and it's hard to. It's hard to challenge that.
- [55:17]
A
No, I mean, absolutely. Mine's around. We all have something, right? We all have things that we, like, beat ourselves up over and convince ourselves. What? I actually just saw this where it was like, I think maybe someone commented on my. On my TikTok about depression. I was like, depressive girlies, what are we doing? And it's like, I call my cousin and she tells me that my depressive thoughts are fake news. And I'm like, it's true. Like, we tell ourselves these false realities and convince ourselves they're true. And I think really coming to terms with that is beneficial and hard.
- [55:50]
B
And so as a mom of two and working mom, like, how do you take time for yourself?
- [55:57]
A
My village truly, like we have a full time nanny and my parents and my in laws are super involved with our kids as are like our group of friends. We are very communal raising which I feel so blessed to, to have. Like it's such a gift. I know I can drop off my kids at six, seven of my friends houses and leave for three hours and it's fine. So that my partner and I are very, very 5050 and like I say it all the time. He's the reason I'm able to do the things I want to do because he takes on so much and like runs our household. But it's a lot of early mornings. Like I'm a morning person. I need that hour to hour and a half before my kids wake up. Like it is pivotal for me. It's psychotic. I don't care. Like, I just need silence even for my husband, like love him to death. I like getting up and having the house to myself where no one else is awake but my dog. That's a big one. And during that time I'm like journaling, I'm having my coffee and peace. I'm catching up on work or like text messages from the night before because I go to bed so early and I read. I do a lot of romance reading. Like there's nothing better to me than after the kids go down, finishing my work, taking an edible and getting in bed with a romance novel. Like my ideal night.
- [57:16]
B
And like, wait, can we actually talk about edibles for five seconds?
- [57:20]
C
Because I feel like.
- [57:22]
B
And it's funny because I was actually on one of my friends podcasts and I had her cut this part out because I was like, I don't know, like the. I feel like the, like even talking about edibles makes me anxious because I feel like there's such a stereotype around, like taking an edible versus having a glass of wine.
- [57:42]
A
Yeah, well, it's all rooted in racism if we really want to get into it because of the war on drugs. Like truly the, the stigma around cannabis is so deeply rooted in comparison when we look at the relationship this country has with alcohol is rooted in racism. Because who did we see smoking or using marijuana and then who did we see benefiting from alcohol? And like, weirdly that kind of helps me be like, well then that I just feel we are such a unique culture to praise and celebrate and look down on people who choose not to a literal poison. And I'm not saying that everyone has to stop drinking at all. I don't I actually don't care. But we can all accept that it's literally a poison. And so to judge someone for not partaking in that is wild. And then the way I'm using cannabis, and I'm very open about my cannabis use, I love it as a form of plant medicine to help with my mental health. Like, I'm way okay with that and I will fight anyone to the grave on that discussion. Like, I think what we've seen and what we've created this idea of is like, oh, you're taking an edible. You're, like, stored on the couch and eating bags of chips and unable to move. Like, no, I'm fully functioning. Okay.
- [59:06]
C
Right.
- [59:07]
A
Did I have moments like that before I had kids? Yeah, I did. But that's not how I'm enjoying marijuana in today's world. It's like a low dose. It's the one of the only things that quiets my mind. Do I wish that was the case? No. But that's my reality and it allows me to quiet everything, disassociate a little bit, which, like, yeah, I would love to not want to feel, but sometimes I do and just like, relax for a beat and it has no impact on me the next day. Which is the greatest gift, especially when we're comparing it with alcohol. Right?
- [59:40]
B
It is. It is the thing I find most interesting, especially as somebody who lives in California. It's very normal out here, right? I'm sure in other parts of the country, maybe it's just not as normalized, but for me, it's always interesting. Even on social media, seeing a mom talking about like, oh, like, yeah, I take an edible this or that. And the comments are just like, oh, my gosh, when you have your children around. But if you go out to dinner and you see parents having a glass of wine, knowing that they're going to drive home with their kids, you don't think twice about it.
- [60:11]
A
No one would say anything. And that is also my response a lot where, like, if I post, like, there. There's an edible company that I love and I work with regularly or like a drink that I enjoy and if I post them now, I actually don't feel like I get any of it. But I know in the beginning I did. And I'm like, if this were a glass of wine, would you have ever responded that way, right? Never. Like, we've even heroized. Heroize. Is that even a word? Put on a pedestal like, mommy, mommy juice as wine. Like, that's crazy. So I feel like we've Gone so far in the direction on one and the opposite direction on the other, where. I'm not saying they even have to be pitted against each other, but I wish the people who had these deep feelings towards cannabis, like, set with themselves and tried to figure out, like, why do I feel that way? Like, oh, where is this actually coming from? What does it actually matter to me? Does it impact me if someone's responsibly enjoying that? Like, no. So I'm very open about it and I love it.
- [61:14]
B
No, I. It's so interesting hearing you say that, because I feel like it is. It is like, becoming more normalized. And I think that healthy, at least in my opinion. I think it's a healthier alternative to drinking when done in, like, a healthy manner, in moderation. X, Y and Z.
- [61:33]
A
Yes.
- [61:33]
B
My daughter's screaming in the background. Okay, so last question. I talk a lot about getting my pink back and all of the things that come with postpartum and all of that. What advice would you give to a mom who might be struggling with her identity postpartum?
- [61:54]
A
Okay, well, the easiest thing I would say, which feels so, like, stereotypical but is so real, is that you have to fill your cup. Like, you literally cannot pour from an empty cup. And it'll look different for everyone, whether it's a five minute meditation or a night away with your girlfriends or a date night, or just finding something for yourself, really finding something that has nothing to do with you as a mom. It could be a specific hobby. Like, I started cross stitching after becoming a mom, and it's so random and I love it so much. Or like, I leaned into playing tennis. Like, there are free things, there are expensive things, There are things that take a lot of time. There are things that take five minutes. There is always something on the spectrum that you can create time for that gives you something to do that has nothing to do with you as a mom. Because I think that that's where so many of us, quote, unquote, lose our pink is because we give everything, because we're told that we're supposed to. Because motherhood is martyrdom. And it's what we've seen right in the media of, like, well, I'm supposed to do this. That's what so and so does. And that's not true. Like, we shouldn't lose ourselves to motherhood. We can gain a new identity, but it doesn't mean that. And I'm not saying you have to fight for the person you were before becoming a mom. You'll become a New human. But, like, you can have something for yourself. And I so wholeheartedly believe that. So figuring out what it is for you that gives you that moment of like, oh, I feel like a version of me that actually does. Doesn't depend or go alongside my kids, like, they're not a part of this equation. And I think that that is really important to find.
- [63:38]
B
Embracing the change, allowing yourself to become a mother and that be part of your identity, but not. Not getting lost in that. Like, still.
- [63:45]
A
Yeah. Not making it your only thing.
- [63:47]
B
I love that. And then lastly, I have some rapid fire questions that I always do at the end. So just you can give a sentence or you can just say one or the other. Vintage jerseys or modern jerseys?
- [64:02]
A
Vintage.
- [64:05]
B
And because of that, you're an Eagles fan.
- [64:09]
A
Yeah. No big deal. We won the Super Bowl.
- [64:15]
B
Kelly green or midnight green?
- [64:17]
A
Kelly Green.
- [64:19]
B
Rom coms or reality shows?
- [64:22]
A
Rom coms.
- [64:23]
B
Running a marathon or cheering on a friend who is running the marathon?
- [64:27]
A
Cheering on a friend, please.
- [64:30]
B
Awkward silences or talking over each other.
- [64:34]
A
I love an awkward silence, but I talk over everyone.
- [64:36]
B
So hot yoga or reformer Pilates?
- [64:41]
A
Reformer Pilates.
- [64:43]
B
NBA or wnba?
- [64:45]
A
I mean, wnba, obviously.
- [64:47]
B
Cold plunge or hot tub for recovery?
- [64:51]
A
Oh, cold plunge.
- [64:54]
B
And last one, Coaching your kids teams or cheering from the sidelines.
- [64:59]
A
Oh, God. This is like, honestly really hard for me because it's something we talk about all the time where, like, I dreamed of going back to be a coach with my kids. Right now I don't think I would want to coach boys. So I'm going to cheer from the sidelines if I have a daughter. Not that women can't coach men. We obviously can. I just don't think I would want to coach young kids that are boys right now. I think cheering from the sidelines. But if I had a daughter who played lacrosse, I think I would love to coach. That's the other thing. I can't coach men's lacrosse. It's a different sport.
- [65:39]
B
Exactly.
- [65:39]
C
Exactly.
- [65:40]
B
Okay, and then where can the people find you?
- [65:43]
A
On Instagram and Tick Tock. It's at Cameron Oaks Rogers. There's no D in my last name. And my podcast is also with Dear Media Conversations with Cam. We have a new episode every Wednesday and a bonus episode on the last Friday of every month. And for more motherhood stuff, I also write on Substack. It's fill your cup, but it's just Cameron Oaks rogers.substack.com I think. Yeah, I believe that's it.
- [66:08]
B
Love that. All right, well, thank you so much for coming on.
- [66:11]
A
Thank you for having me. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.