Natalie Nixon (2:44)

Steven because he's so, so evil.

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I do think he is misunderstood.

Natalie Nixon (2:47)

You see everyone face consequences.

Rebecca Minkoff (2:50)

It's intoxicating. The writers just know how to trick.

Ad Voice (2:53)

Yeah, there's always a twist in this show.

Rebecca Minkoff (2:54)

Tell Me Lies, the official podcast January 6th. And stream the new season of Tell Me Lies January 13th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.

Natalie Nixon (3:03)

Why should we change? Is working fine. Well, fine will get you to where you might need to go and where the young upstarts who could eat your lunch will go.

Rebecca Minkoff (3:12)

Hey, everyone, you're listening to Superwomen. Today's guest is Natalie Nixon. She's been dubbed the creativity whisperer for CEOs. If you feel blocked creativity wise, she teaches you some frameworks on how to think about being creative and how to actually put those creative ideas into action

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to grow your company.

Natalie Nixon (3:29)

Organizations are organisms. They are inconsistent, they're imperfect. I think it's kind of hilarious that we still are trying to make this sort of an algorithm for perfect outcomes.

Rebecca Minkoff (3:41)

I meet a lot of people who are great at business and they're like, but I'm not creative at all.

Natalie Nixon (3:45)

There's a difference between art and creativity. It's not something that only artists are great at, but the best CFOs, plumbers, teachers, executive assistants, attorneys, et cetera are super creative. It's my perspective that creativity is not a nice to have, it's a must have. Creativity is your ability to toggle between wonder and and rigor to solve problems. My goal is to help them optimize that creativity for strategic advantage.

Rebecca Minkoff (4:18)

I'm Rebecca Minkoff and this is Superwomen. Each week, inspiring women are interviewed to uncover the unexpected journeys, the challenges, and the unwavering spirit that makes them powerful. Get ready to be motivated by stories of resilience and discover the keys to unlocking your own potential. Natalie, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to dive into your method today and so excited to chat.

Natalie Nixon (4:46)

Thanks for having me, Rebecca.

Rebecca Minkoff (4:47)

It's good to be here. You know, you're known as the CEO whisperer, at least from the research I've done online and helping transform companies with a different method of approach. Business culture is a struggle. It's a founder's number one complaint.

Natalie Nixon (5:02)

People, people.

Rebecca Minkoff (5:03)

And I'm curious to dive into, you know, what inspired you to go into this realm. And then we'll take on your approach after.

Natalie Nixon (5:09)

Yeah. Well, I developed the tagline of the creativity Whisper to the C suite because the lens that I use to help leaders consistently innovate is through this lens of creativity. So I'm a creativity strategist and I help leaders leverage creativity for strategic advantage because it's my perspective that creativity is not a nice to have, it's a must have. It's not something that only artists are great at, but the best. CFOs, plumbers, teachers, executive assistants, attorneys, et cetera are super creative. And my goal is to help them optimize that creativity in a number of ways. And when you talk about people being the pain point for so many leaders, it's kind of ironic because whether you're selling widgets, gadgets, or services and experiences, at the end of the day, it's people who are consuming those goods and products and services. And the other thing we often forget is that organizations are organisms. And they're organisms because they're made of humans and because they're made up of humans, they are inconsistent, they're imperfect, they're not predictable. And I think it's kind of hilarious that we still are trying to make this sort of an algorithm for kind of perfect outcomes rather than lead into the process, which can be messy at times, can be imperfect. And that's where building your creative capacity really is essential so that you can have a much more integrative approach that is much more adaptive.

Rebecca Minkoff (6:36)

What even made you want to enter this sphere and how do you even get training for it? If I'm being honest, like, how do you even come to that sort of space?

Natalie Nixon (6:47)

So my entrance into the sphere has been really loopy. I have a background in cultural anthropology. I worked in the fashion industry and global apparel sourcing for a division of the Limited brands. Before that, I started my hat design business in my twenties in New York City. It's called Wait for It, Not Hats. And you know, you, you as, as someone who is, is an iconic entrepreneur in fashion, know that people who've never worked in fashion think it's either glamorous or frivolous, and it's neither. It is a business. And fashion really taught me the value of trend, the value and role of beauty and desire and esthetics in connecting to consumers in a meaningful way. There's a lot that health care and tech and financial services can learn from the ways that fashion builds business and connections with consumers. But because I worked in sourcing, I lived and worked in Sri Lanka and Portugal, traveled throughout Asia. I Learned about the business of fashion tremendously and the role of logistics and technology. So that's something I brought forward into my work. Having studied cultural anthropology is the gift that keeps giving because you learn how to ask questions. You learn to be very observant of people. I got tired of living and working in different time zones, from family and friends, and said yes to an opportunity to become an assistant professor at what is now Thomas Jefferson University. Ended up being an academic for 16 years. And the first 10 years I taught the business of fashion. In the last six years, in the middle of that, that last unbeknownst to me chapter of my academic career, I gave a TEDx Philadelphia talk. And in that talk, I was proclaiming that the future of work is jazz. I give that talk and it catapults me into getting invited to companies to advise, consult, facilitate, speak. And I was doing so much of that. That's how I got to the stage of making up my job title as a creativity strategist and doing the work I do now of helping people understand the creativity as a strategic competency.

Rebecca Minkoff (8:43)

So let's get into some of the brass tacks, because I feel like I meet a lot of people who are great at business and they're like, but I'm not creative at all. And you come in and you say, no, it is about creativity. So give me a couple of use cases of someone who feels they aren't creative where you would come in and open up that creativity for them. Because I'm like you. I believe everyone can be creative. And. And I always tell people, like, well, I'm not an artist like you. I'm like, but there's an art. And there's an art to running a business. There's an art to being a leader, even if it's not drawer right or a sketcher or whatever Y.

Natalie Nixon (9:14)

So there's a difference between art and creativity. Artists are exceptional at wrestling with the ambiguity of the creative process. So when you talk to designers or artists and you ask them like, well, where is this all leading? Like, you go to a work in progress at a studio, or you meet the choreographer after a dance performance, and they'll very calmly and happily say, I don't really know. I'm still leaning into this. And so that is a big distinction about the way, first of all, artists are trained on their own or through education to lean into Aaron to process rather than what is the answer. They are very much more open to that. But when, when I, for example, I've been hired by a C Suite team of attorneys at a global law firm to help them answer the question of how might we normalize curiosity in our work culture. When you think about people who have, were in a, on a corporate track, they, they've been rewarded for having the answer for, for leaning into certainty. And then when they arrive on the battlefield, it feels like sometimes of work in the marketplace, there's a lot of gray. Another example is I worked with a team of leaders at Google who internally were at a real crossroads organizationally and kind of were at an identity crisis. They had been through a lot of shifts and changes and needed to understand what their purpose was. And so I took them through a process of identifying what their true north is. Because in my view, while we want to have a roadmap that tells us when to go left and right, if I equip you with a true north compass, you are much more able to adapt to all the changes that are ahead. And that that process really was about getting grounded in three deceptively simple questions. What if, so what? And now what? And what if helps you to get really blue sky and big picture in your thinking. To get to that divergent thinking, you physiologically feel differently when you ask that question. What if? Right? So what is the element of rigor that is really important? So what forces you to put a critical lens and everything you've just dreamt up and really challenge your assumptions about what's possible now? What is a hybrid of the what if, which I call the wonder dimension, and the so what the rigor dimension. And now what is can be very rigorous, like as in what is our very next first step? Brass tacks. What's it going to cost? How much time should we dedicate to it? Who are the people that we need? But now what can also be like now what? Right, it can also be that wonder. So what I'm hinting at is when I go in and work with teams, I am really equipping them with, with my wonder and rigor method. Because creativity is your ability to toggle between wonder and. And rigor to solve problems. So that toggling between wonder and rigor is something that we see artists do exceptionally well. So we assume, okay, that's creativity. But when you think about the best engineers and accountants and educators and farmers and teachers and plumbers, et cetera, are toggling between wonder and rigor to solve problems. And I also zoom out way from specific examples, Rebecca, and give you what I call the business roi of creativity and how it shows up. The reason I say that there is not a fuzzy dotted line between creativity and business results, but a solid, bold line. I'll give two examples. When we commit to being more creative, to toggling between wonder and rigor, to designing space and time and systems and processes that help us to do that, we must have much more inventive thinking. We must have much more big picture thinking we have to step away from. Well, we've always done it this way or why should we change is working fine. Well, fine will get you to where you might need to go and where the young upstarts who could eat your lunch because they're scrappier will go. So when you have much more inventive thinking, you begin to identify new products, services and experiences delivered to your clients. And that unlocks new revenue streams. That is a business result going from inventive thinking to new revenue streams. Another example is that most of us really don't like to collaborate because we say, I could do this by myself. Why do I have to bring these people in? However, long term, when we collaborate, because we're bringing in different skill sets, our assumptions are challenged. We increase productivity. When productivity goes up, efficiencies go up. And when efficiencies go up, costs go down. So there's a direct line between collaboration and cost cutting long term. So those are just two examples of the business cases when we commit to creativity. The way I'm talking about in terms of this wonder and rigor work, everyone.

Rebecca Minkoff (14:09)

Sorry for the quick pause. I want to share something really exciting. Superwoman has a brand new YouTube channel. It's still under construction, but big things are coming in 2026. You'll find past episodes, new episodes, and

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some bonus content I cannot wait for you to see.

Rebecca Minkoff (14:26)

Just search SuperWoman Media on YouTube and hit subscribe so you don't miss a thing. Okay, back to the pod. Do you think that money has a play in keeping creativity down? And I'll give you a real life example. I would say for the last two years, my marketing and PR budget and experiential budget has been almost zero. And everything I did was done with rubbing sticks together, coming up with totally wild and out of the box ideas and creativity. And when I got the budget this year and it was increased by, you know, an amount I haven't had in two years, I felt paralyzed and I felt like, now what do I do now? The pressure is on. Before there was no pressure because I had nothing. So it was almost like, oh, you did something awesome. You know, and now I'm like, well, now how do I spend it? And now what do I do? And I literally couldn't come up with a single. I had to go to chat GBT to help me come up with.

Natalie Nixon (15:21)

Well, first of all, congratulations. Good news, bad news. Right. You, yeah. So what you're talking about, when we have something like a greater budget, a higher budget. Yes, the sandbox feels bigger all of a sudden. However, creativity loves constraints. Creativity loves constraints on time, on budget, on people, resources. Because those are the moments where you're forced to think very differently, to use your words and ask for help, to in a humorous self deprecating way, say, I really don't know what, what was next? I don't know what I'm doing, but, but let me try, right? These are the conditions that really help us to prototype more often. And what, what's a prototype? A prototype is a rough draft, ugly mock up. In my business, I use the words. In my company, I'm constantly running experiments and when I use that layer psychologically for myself is taking the pressure off. There's three possible outcomes of an experiment. We have to be scrappy. One outcome is yay, it works, Yay me, it's great, you know, I learned something, it worked. And like it was a second outcome of an experiment, it failed. But when we use the word experiment, it's a softer blow because experiments should fail. That's how we learn. Right? I'm from Philly, the home of the Eagles, and our quarterback, Jalen Hurts likes to say there's winning and learning. You know, he errs away from saying winning and failing.

Rebecca Minkoff (16:48)

I say when you learn.

Natalie Nixon (16:49)

Yeah, yes. You're either winning or you learn. And hopefully you're always learning. Right? So, so that prototyping, experimental mindset, the outcome could be yay, it's A, when, B, okay, it failed. What do we learn and see? Here's this little thread that has emerged that we didn't see coming and where does that lead us to? Right? We want play money, we want bigger budgets. And I think the lesson here is all of us have to tap into something I call your inventory of courage. All of us have chapters in our lives, in the growth of our businesses where we're at our wits end. We weren't sure if the next big idea was going to work or where our next client was going to come from. And we need to tap into that reservoir of courage and grittiness and scrappiness to carry us through even during those chapters when we do have the best team and a great budget and phenomenal success. So that we don't lose our Genesis quad. They got us to where we are.

Rebecca Minkoff (17:49)

I mean, I feel like you see it over and over again. A company gets to a certain size, and then they lose that ability. And then, like you said, this is the way it's always been done. I just listened to a podcast this morning where Stephen from Diaracio calls it like the paper wall syndrome or problem where, oh, I can't do that. That's just why? Why can't you do that? Well, that's just the way it's been done. Stops that. So now you have a big company. How do you get them to get their creativity and scrappiness back? Because sometimes you don't want to let go of the things that make it a little cushiony now that you've been there.

Natalie Nixon (18:25)

So one important thing to do is I kind of full circle back to the top of our conversation, Rebecca, is that you always have to make sure that you're plugging in people who have a very different skill set than you have. You have to make sure that they're young. There's some young people, a lot of young people, who have different training from you. So that's one thing people you're surrounding yourself with. Second thing, the context that you're putting yourself into. So a big piece of advice I like to give people is to always be a clumsy student of something. And that could be in your personal life, but also your professional life. How many conferences do you go to where you're learning something new? If your issue can't afford to send people to a different sort of conference, what about webinars, where they are tapping into an industry that they know nothing about? And then the call to action is to return to the team and share what you learned. Are they doing something that they have kind of similar parallel problems, but they're approaching very differently? How can we adopt that? So that learning mindset professionally of in design thinking, we call it lateral thinking. What can we learn from near and far adjacent areas? So if you work in fashion, go to an agricultural technology conference. What do you learn? If you work in higher ed, go to a conference that's all about finance on Wall Street. You know, if you work in philosophy, whatever, you know, it's to really interrupt the patterns that we wire in our brain about the ways that we think. The other piece about being a conduit student is literally on a personal level, where in your life are you not the smartest person in the room? Are you really bad at something? So, for example, we had friends visiting town and we went bowling and I am a horrible bowler. I also crack myself up. I have I have a lot of fun with it. I learned from my husband who's a great bowler and other our friends who are much better bowlers than me. I learned tips. I learned how to take instruction. I learned how to laugh at myself. I'm also five years now I've been consistently a student of ballroom dance. In ballroom I must learn to follow. Arguably I'm not the best follower all the time in my life. I like thinking of it but but I but in ballroom I I learned to open my mouth, use my words and ask questions even though if it sounds stupid. I learned to be much more comfortable being experimental. I learned to follow my intuition to get out of my head and into my body, which is still a lifelong process for me. What we do when we are clumsy students of something in both our personal lives and in our working lives and bring those lessons back to the team is that we are rewiring the neural pathways in our brain that help us to show up to work very differently, to help us to get more comfortable being challenged, to help us to get more comfortable with being in a learning mode. So the short answer is make sure that you put people around you and put yourself in context and situations where you can be in that learning modality.

Rebecca Minkoff (21:23)

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Rebecca Minkoff (23:18)

So what's a sign if someone is listening and they're an executive, what is a sign that they should look for or the red flag? Someone should be like, they're blocked, they're stuck, they're not. You know, they're always just going to look at the numbers. Like an example is when we had private equity investment. He was just basing every single decision on the spreadsheet in front of him. He would look at the spreadsheet, did the number go negative? Decision made. And so I'm just curious, what are your red flags that you're just people should be on the on the lookout for?

Natalie Nixon (23:47)

Well, ideally we have to start with a true north, right? Which is what are my values and what is what makes sense for me in terms of how I want my business to look, feel, sound like. And when we have that clarity, when we start to deter from that or someone else on the team, is that right there is the red flag. So first of all, it's a clarity on what makes sense for me and my business. So the things that make sense, I'll just talk personally. For me, figuring, thinking my values are around curiosity and discipline, play and also integrity. Then I do what I say and then I work with people who do what they say. I work with people who ask questions, who aren't afraid to ask questions that we add in elements of play to the ways that we work. So having that clarity on what my true north is is really important so that you can sense it. And speaking of sensing, pay attention to when that that like, oh, this doesn't quite feel right. So then the next thing is, well, how do you have those conversations with people? And I actually default back to a form of feedback that I learned when I was a professor. There's so much that and I didn't mention this, but I was also A middle school English teacher for five years in my 20s. Wow. Arguably, that chapter of my professionalization, if that's a term, has served me the best for everything I've gone out to do. Because middle schoolers can smell blood a mile away. They teach you how to have a sense of humor about yourself. You must be able to think on your feet, all the things. So anyway, but I learned, especially in my years as a university professor, how to give feedback. So what I would love to share with you and your listeners is, and if this makes sense for hard conversations is this framework of I like I wish what if? So always starting with the positive. I really like the way that you are just adding value to this process because you have a very different type of a beautiful brain than I have. You know, you're able to get to the numbers. And that is so helpful to me because that's not. That's not my strength. And it really helps me to see my business really clearly in that way. Right. So we start. I like I wish is the soft critique. I wish I understood why you just stop there. I wish I understood why you're not factoring in maybe more the human element that I've always discerned as I've been building my business. Right. So that. So that is a question. Pause, have the conversation, and you're critiquing that without, like, you know, bashing them over the head. And then the what if can be a collective thing of like, what if we. What if we try to do a combination of those things? What if we went to this event together and you can kind of get a sense of how I'm thinking about it? So what if I could join you on your next. Whatever it is? Right. But that's that framework of I like I wish and what if is I have found to be a really helpful way to have those kind of hard conversations where the person, we're just like, oh, why are they doing it? That's what you're like. So you don't lead with. With like the irritation and the. And the critique, but it opens it up with questions and conversation.

Rebecca Minkoff (27:09)

I wrote that down. I have a call after this that I'll be applying that.

Natalie Nixon (27:13)

Wonderful. Yeah.

Rebecca Minkoff (27:16)

So speaking, going back to a little bit about your career, how do you navigate your own career? And how have you sort of built a structure around a very unique thing that you do? Because I think, you know, someone might want to follow in your path or be as, you know, someone who's a speaker, consultant, going into companies. And I don't know if you probably go into a company and you're focused on that and then you peel your head out when you're done. You're like, oh, I gotta go, I gotta start the cycle over again and get a new gig. So I'm curious how you've shaped your own career so that you're able to flow with it or not.

Natalie Nixon (27:53)

As you've already discerned, it's been a very iterative process which for the most part I don't mind. And I, and I referenced this moment labs and sophomore in college. I didn't quite share what happened. So I was in a sophomore in college, had my first world existential moment of what will I major in and did not want to disappoint. My parents called home, they listened to me go on and on about all the areas I thought sounded impressive but didn't really interest me. And they found out, what are you interested in? What do you like? And I confessed that I love these classes in cultural anthropology and Africana studies. And almost at the same time my parents said, that's what you should major in. And I said, wait, what? That would be okay with you? And they said, yeah. My father said, natalie, if you study what you love, you will have to turn down opportunities. And it was like this load lifted off me. And these were for two African American, you know, middle class, aspirational parents who had sacrificed a ton for our education. This is in the 80s, this is the late 80s. I graduated college in 1991 where it was like study computers, right? And for them to give me that blessing, that permission to study anthropology, culture, anthropology was just kind of bananas and radical in so many ways and a blessing. And so I'm sharing that to say that I have sometimes to the Chevrin, I have always followed my heart and I have always paused when I need to listen to what's next. So interestingly, I'm at a stage right now and my revenue model, my business model, where I am leaning into building my own sort of intimate masterminds and events so that my product offering, my product and service offering isn't excluded, isn't exclusively. You see me on stage giving a keynote or you read one of my books or you're taking one of my courses. So right now we're also launching more micro courses, companion courses to my books. And I'm realizing what I'm kind of going back to me, to my core. I am a teacher and part of what this yearning will answer for me in these micro events and these exclusive Masterminds are ways for me to be of service to people in a much more high touch environment that is highly curated, that is deeply meaningful, that is helping people with this goal of helping them get unstuck. Shifting their business model all through the lens of building this. This capacity for creativity all through the lens of. Of talking between wandering rigor. So I really try to practice what I preach by building micro retreats for myself throughout the year. It helps me to reinvent. It helps me to do a pulse check. It helps me to get into learning mode. I always gift myself on personal development experience and one professional development experience a year. Again, I'm a nerd. I love ideas and learning. So I'm always figuring out ways to learn something new and. Or learn a different approach to what I think I have mastered and know. You know. I studied dances. I was four years old. I started Horton Technique Modern dance. And you did. Oh, Horton. Yeah. Not Graham. Wow. Go flat back in contractions and releases. That's awesome.

Rebecca Minkoff (31:26)

I did Graham. I went to Alvin Ailey for a minute. I thought I'd be a modern dancer as my career and so that's why I did Graham. But I trained only in Horton Technique.

Natalie Nixon (31:36)

That's. Yeah, yeah. I never got into Graham was always. It was just too much thinking. I just. I flowed more with flat backs and contractions and laterals. That, that, that Horton is. That's. That's amazing.

Rebecca Minkoff (31:49)

Yeah. I also like feel like my pelvis. Like I could never be doing arabesque. Like my pelvis never could contract or. It just doesn't. It's not as flexible.

Podcast Host (Ad Segment) (31:57)

So Horton was great for me because

Rebecca Minkoff (31:59)

it was the flat back and I was like, it's all I need is a flat back.

Natalie Nixon (32:02)

The flat fact. And yes. Yes. Oh, that's. That's awesome. The always building in time and space to pause, to regroup, to ask for help. I was on a call this morning with someone who planned doing some work together. But I was. It was also. It was very, very generous and kind of him to give me some feedback from him. He doesn't. He. Our space is kind of overlap, but I asked for help. I asked for feedback, I asked for different ideas. I now have a business manager which for me as a solopreneur is incredibly helpful to give me perspective, to help. I am increasingly learning to hire people who compliment what I do. Could I do biz stuff? Sure. Have I done it? Yes. But to pay someone who. That's what he's excellent at. That's what he loves to do. So I can spend my time doing what my sort of beautiful brain is excellent at is great. So scaffolding my business with people who are complimentary to me has been a big learning and it's been a way that I know that will help me to scale.

Rebecca Minkoff (33:04)

I love that you say that. I love that you call it scaffolding. I feel like that's my superpower, is I know who I know when I'm like, oh, I need to hire for that. I need to hire that out. You know, like, I'll think to take something on. And I'm like, oh, I don't have the bandwidth. Great, I can hire that piece.

Natalie Nixon (33:18)

Yes, that and that, that, that. See, that was not my superpower. It was coming from a place of fear to not hire someone. And I remember it's probably a year and a half then. I know I keep referencing John, my husband, but I work from home, so he's, he will see me a lot working on stuff. But I was probably like 18 months into building figure 8 thinking, peeked his head into my office and he was like, dave, I kind of feel like probably there's someone you could hire to help you do some of this. And I was like, no one can do what I do. But it was, it was something from a place of fear because I was like, I don't even know how I'm doing this. Like, that means I would have to create a system and unpack it and give it language and, and that takes time and work. And do I have the time to do that? Yes, you do. And as soon as I did that, I got it freed up time in my day and in my head to get to do even better work. And it's gotten easier and easier to ask for help, to hire the help to be able to grow and scale and scope.

Rebecca Minkoff (34:16)

I love that. So if you're listening, it's time to get creative. Where can people follow you? Find out about the courses and get some of your magic?

Natalie Nixon (34:27)

Yes. Thank you. They should go to figure8thinking.com, that's F I R E, the number 8thinking.com, where the first thing to do is to sign up for the Wonder Rigor newsletter. It's. It's a monthly newsletter with all sorts of great tips and tactics. Also on that website of Figurate thinking, they can see some of the new courses that we're, we're. We're launching and to follow me on LinkedIn, Natalie Nixon on LinkedIn and then on Instagram, Nat W. Nixon. Those are the best places to start.

Podcast Host (Ad Segment) (34:59)

Awesome.

Rebecca Minkoff (35:00)

Thank you. For coming on today. Thank you for giving hope to the people that don't feel like they can be creative because they're only business or finance brained. And those are the people that can probably have the most fun figuring the what if.

Natalie Nixon (35:13)

Yeah, and a lot of them already are. They just don't have the language that I can equip them with. So. So thank you so much for having me, Rebecca. This was a lot of fun.

Rebecca Minkoff (35:21)

Awesome. Thanks so much for watching today's episode. Before you head out, I want to invite you to my brand new YouTube channel for all things superwomen. It's a fresh space I'm building out for 2026, packed with past episodes, future episodes, and some special new content we're cooking up. Just search SuperWoman Media on YouTube and subscribe so you're there for everything coming next. I'll see you over there.

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Rebecca Minkoff (35:46)

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Rebecca Minkoff (35:49)

Wherever you're tuning in. It really helps others find the podcast. You can follow me on Instagram, Rebecca Minkoff and at rmsuperwoman or for a slice into my personal life, Becky Minkoff. And don't forget to check out my

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Rebecca Minkoff (36:03)

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