Ray Atia (2:04)

I am. If you see the Reds here now, I have to say I'm also a big Yankees fan. So I'm a Reds and Yankees fan. So I prefer the Reds unless they're Playing the Yankees. But I am a huge Reds fan and that's what brought me to Cincinnati. The big machine back in the 70s.

Scott Luton (2:20)

That's the combination. You don't find too much out there, the Reds and the Yankees, but. So you know that Major League Baseball has implemented the ABS challenge where pitchers, catchers and batters can challenge the umpire's calls on balls and strikes. When batters, for example, as they're in the batter's box and they don't like the call, they can touch their helmet like within two seconds and there will be a instant video review leaning on some really high. Futin technologies made a big impact on the game. And just last week, as the graphic here shares, the Reds challenged a call late in the game and it was instrumental. They won the challenge and it was instrumental in their win over the Minnesota Twins. Now, Ray, I really find this fascinating beyond the balls and strikes and, and the baseball component here. Right. Although I liked it thus far. But in the bigger sense, it's kind of like man versus machine where technology is reviewing human umpires judgment calls. That's really intriguing your thoughts in a broader sense, Ray.

Ray Atia (3:17)

So first of all, that challenge with the Twins was literally the last play of the game. It was a strike that was challenged to end the game. So that was a very unique situation. So when I look at it, my framing is really, you're empowering the front line, the catcher, the pitcher, the batter, they're the ones closest to the work. They're the ones who see what's happening. And they have now a power challenge. Those in authority, you know, they've been using VAR in soccer. My wife and I met playing soccer. So soccer is huge for us. And in soccer, I love it because there's very few goals and they make a huge difference. You know, in baseball, there's a lot of pitches, a lot of balls, a lot of strikes, and people can react a little bit by swinging a little bit outside the strike zone, knowing that, you know, the umpire has a wider range. But now a catcher who has the ability to see it in their head. You know, I was a catcher and you learned how to frame a boss. Came here, you frame it. So we went from influencing the umpire who's behind us to now we have a very black and white opportunity for us to challenge. And you know, I had a wonderful teacher in fifth grade, Mr. Man, and he allowed the students to challenge their grades. And I. He really taught us how to have challenge it by doing in a respectful way. So what I see this as. So if you don't like your grade, you would challenge it. Now he also told you that if you challenge it, and I look back and I find something else wrong with it, your grades could go down. So it's not just a free unlimited number of challenges. You actually have a penalty if you're wrong. But what, when I saw that, it was empowering. When I see this, I see the pitcher, the catcher, the batters are now empowered. You have a lot less people being thrown out of the game. The difference in soccer is that VAR video assisted review can only be called by the, the referee or somebody in the booth. They don't empower the front line. So that's the big thing that I see that is so unique about baseball. It's quick, you know, it does put transparency. And if you saw one of the early games with the Reds, one of the umpires got the first six challenges wrong. So the crowd is booing. It was, it was just brutal.

Scott Luton (5:26)

That's taken. Gotta be on your game more so than ever before if you're gonna be a major league umpire. And one more thing also, Ray, is interesting because you think of this from the business implications and you think about some of the human decisions, first off, how technology is empowering better and better supply chain decisions for the beautiful human element out there. But in this kind of case, wonder how long before machines are gonna be like, Scott, don't send it that way, send that package this way. You know, I'm, I'm challenging you, Ray. It's, it's an incredible time to be in the golden age of supply chain tech. Huh?

Ray Atia (6:01)

So it definitely is a human enabled system. So it's not just because ultimately if you said, okay, let's just get rid of the umpire in general and just make it robotic. And you have, you know, just like tennis did. You know, tennis has removed the entire, you know, other than the one referee in the chair, they removed the lineups. So, so, so it is a right now a technology that enables and adds to them, but it also, you have to then, you know, give the referees and the umpires a lot of credit because we'll watch a re replay, especially in football, over and over and over again and you still can't tell whether or not that ball was caught. And they're supposed to make this split second decision in real time, real speed, have to see it and make a decision. So you have to appreciate the situation that they're in a lot more, you know, respect, you know, because they've got to make that decision right then and There without the use of technology.

Scott Luton (6:53)

Let me just say. Ray. Let me just say. The late Eric Greg. It was a 1997 National League Championship Series. If the ABS Challenge was around in that travesty of a robbery of a game against my beloved Braves where Eric Greg was given two feet on either side of the plate to the rookie phenom Levon Hernandez. Where was the ABS Challenge when we needed it? But nevertheless.

Ray Atia (7:19)

Well, I also thought you were bringing this. You could talk about baseball even at the Braves right now have the number one record. And then you decided to record this on this day. So that when we're having this recording, they're number one. So that if we happen to go live in a couple days, they misunderstand it. We just. So they're number one. The Yankees and the Reds are sitting in number one in their division. So this is a perfect day for this. But I'll tell you, the one ABS I wish they did was the Detroit Lions. I'm sorry, the Detroit Tigers.

Scott Luton (7:47)

Right.

Ray Atia (7:47)

You know where I'm going with this? The perfect game that was ruined by miss. Call it the.

Scott Luton (7:53)

Call it. First base.

Ray Atia (7:53)

Exactly. Those of you who are watching, watch that. But here's what's interesting. I love the pitcher's reaction when he just lost the perfect game, lost a no hitter, and just looks at the umpire like, you know, and then, you know, the grace.

Scott Luton (8:08)

Grace is a good thing, right? Grace is a good thing in business, in competition. Name it. Because it's a. It's a tough job for the. The human umpires in the broadest sense of that word. All right, so really quick for all of our Reds fans, Yankees fans and Braves fans out there, congrats. Your first place early on. We'll see how it goes out. The season plays out. So, Ray, we got a lot to get to. I want to share a couple quick things for folks. Folks, y' all know it's all about resources and giving opportunities to network and learn. We got a big event coming up April 29, just in a couple days, National Supply Chain Day. So plan on joining us at 12 noon for a virtual event. It's going to feature a wide range of supply chain leaders. Our keynote is the amazing Billy Ray Taylor, author of the bestselling link, best selling book the Winning Link. Almost got that right. Plus we're gonna be recognizing some incredible people organizations. Come join us on April 29th. Ray, that's on your calendar, right?

Ray Atia (8:59)

It will be now.

Scott Luton (9:00)

Okay, good. Perfect answer. All right, so also on the heels of an incredible Modex where they Set records here in Atlanta. Modex at 50,000 people according to the data, biggest modex in history right here in Atlanta. Well, we were there, interviewed a bunch of folks, and now we're heading to Orlando, May 4th through the 6th with Gartner Supply Chain Symposium. This is the place to be, especially for senior supply chain leaders. If you're there, give us a shout. We'd love to connect. And I'll tell you, Ray, this place right here, symposium at or in Orlando, it is, according to the scientists out there, folks attract these things. It's the largest supply chain happy hour in the universe. How about that, Ray?

Ray Atia (9:39)

You know what I. A good happy hour with some good oeuvres is always wonderful.

Scott Luton (9:44)

That's right. And talking about our favorite subject. Right? So. And speaking of Gartner Supply Chain Symposium, hey, if you're there, you got to meet our friends, Decision Spot at the event. Are you running supply chain decisions on spreadsheets? Come on, be honest. You know, a lot of folks are out there. Well, Decision Spot is changing that. You can find them at Booth 1218 at Gartner in Orlando. And we'll drop the link so you can learn more about Decision Spot right here. And last thing before we jump into a few news stories. Ray, I love a good case study. Do you like a good. I know you like a good case study, right?

Ray Atia (10:15)

And I've been taught. I'm using the word case story now because everybody like stories. Oh, a case study is technical, written in a certain way, but case story is one that you remember you link onto. You know, Gent was one of my old clients, and I remember the story of how the name came about and the employee saying, I run this place. So when they tell a story. And that was, you know, 2003. We're talking about 13 years ago. I remember that story the way it was told.

Scott Luton (10:41)

Love it. Case story. From this point forward, it's a proclamation. Well, our friends, our friends at Easy Post just published a great case story focused on how a leading omni channel 3 PL named case with a K, partnered with the team and was able to reduce costs, improve delivery performance, and most importantly, elevate the customer experience. Knock their socks off. You can download a copy and learn more and learn about how you can do that right there via the link below. Okay, so Ray, we got to get to work now and dive into some new stories here on the Buzz, powered by our friends at dos. And first up, we're talking about one of my favorite topics and we're talking pre show. Ray, we have we have covered the world of returns and reverse logistics like few have in the last five or six years? It's fascinating. Well, here, as reported by the Wall Street Journal, returns space is only getting bigger, right? And folks, there's lots of figures, different figures out there, but one thing you can take to the bank, we're all, we all really like buying and returning stuff. The Wall Street Journal here says returns just in us. Ray, get this, write this down. $706 billion a year just in the U.S. get more into this business. And this is where the return space is getting bigger. And UPS had acquired Happy Returns from PayPal back in 2023 and now they're ramping up operations. Happy Returns, in case you didn't know, is a software and logistics business that handles returns for retailers. Makes it easier and they help to ensure that the returns process is a positive one when it comes to the overall customer experience. And we all know that the returns experience is now an even bigger part of the brand experience that we all measure consciously and subconsciously. Happy Returns. Get this, Ray. Happy Returns is adding another 1700 locations in the US for consumers to drop off their returns, which will bring its total footprint to some 10,000 locations. Getting ups more and more into the returns revenue game. Executives at UPS say that the complexity of returns management means higher profits, be smarter business, especially in the very challenging and fast evolving freight market. And by the way, what's that phrase, monkey see, monkey do? Well, for what it's worth, FedEx launched a competitor called Easy Returns in March 2025, which now has 3,000 locations across the U.S. so Ray, when it comes to returns, whether it's the supply chain behind them or the customer experience, what are some of your thoughts here?

Ray Atia (13:07)

My first thought goes to loyalty. How do you use the return process, the Return experience to actually increase customer loyalty was a good book written that talks about customer experiences that says most people think that wowing a customer is the best way to build loyalty. And research shows actually the best way to build loyalty is how quickly do you resolve an issue. So the more one step process, one call, one positive experience. When you have an issue, I mean, imagine calling, you know, your healthcare provider or insurance or anyone and you get routed five different times. You gotta make three calls, three emails, that breaks down loyalty. But if you wow them with, you know what, I'm gonna take care of this, there's nothing more you need to do. Here's how it's done. Wow, I was not expecting that. That's what you build loyalty on. So if you can create a return process and actually when they do and process the return, you actually then incentivize them to make another purchase. So imagine in that same experience where guess what, you have a return like an apparel take something that is a high value item and you make that process so easy for them that they want to make another purchase with you. So that's when I would think of that process is not the logistics aspect of getting the item back, but actually increasing the bond with the customer and the consumer.

Scott Luton (14:30)

So Ray, let me ask you this. Love your perspective there. I'm asking you a personal question. So as Amanda and Trisha know this and big, big thanks to them both for all their wonderful production leadership. I hate returning anything. I really do. I hate it. And so I don't very, very, very infrequently. Ray, are you a prolific returner or not?

Ray Atia (14:50)

I am not. So I don't think many in our family are. I know I have a sister that is to the good stuff now. Yeah, but. And she's very, he's got high standards and if it doesn't meet something. So I tend to, you know, probably research it. Actually we just same, we just, you know, purchased the bag for our trip that we're taking here in the summer and they came in, it was supposed to be a medium and my wife asked me to measure it. So I'm measuring and she's like, it doesn't seem like it's a medium. I think it's pretty big. But we don't tend to be. But here's the thing. I do return items and I don't, I love being able to just to walk into a UPS store and hand them, hand them the item. But even now you go, you could take it to Kohl's. You know, Amazon has the return process there in certain states with Kohl's. So you walk into the store, you return, return something and they put it all in the back so you have to walk by everything. And then also the, you know, Whole Foods, you know, they make it easy. But I'll tell you, when you go to Whole Foods, a line for returns is ridiculous.

Scott Luton (15:45)

But the UPS go ahead, Ray. I hear they got a new, they got a new name at Whole Foods. I think I've heard it called Whole Paycheck.

Ray Atia (15:51)

Oh yes, is that right? Oh, is that right? The cost of the cost of the food. Yes, yes, exactly.

Scott Luton (15:56)

Well, hey, you mentioned UPS store folks. Over the course of my entire entrepreneurial journey, the UPS store has been a terrific resource and to raise Point man, it's wonderful to be able to walk in there with your Amazon return or other things. It's one thing you can quickly check off your list. So big shout out to the UPS store. And by the way, Amanda says behind the scenes she is a return enthusiast. That's a creative way of putting it. It's a creative way of putting in Amanda.

Ray Atia (16:21)

Well, as long as she doesn't get blacklisted from certain groups. Because now they're watching your, the algorithm determining whether or not you're a profitable customer or not. So otherwise you get.

Scott Luton (16:30)

That's right.

Ray Atia (16:30)

That's like in soccer, you get relegated to the limited return policy.

Scott Luton (16:34)

Well, and you know, we'll cover this on another show, but there's big or big time organized crime and bad actors in the return space and it's really a chronic problem. More, more to come on that Sending,

Ray Atia (16:44)

sending cereal back in LEGO boxes.

Scott Luton (16:46)

That's right, yeah. Fake batteries and power tools. I mean, you name it. I mean when you're talking about a, by at least one account a $706 billion industry, of course it's going to

Ray Atia (16:57)

be targeted and AI is going to help that where people then have to take a picture of it before they send it.

Scott Luton (17:02)

And so that's right. But that's part of, you know, going back to the story here. That's part of the happy returns business model using AI to help crack down on fraud. So we'll see how that goes. Seems like business is good as business is expanding. We got to get to our next topic and that is decision making in the manufacturing space. Right. As manufacturing dive reports here. There's a recent survey published by our friends at L2L that offer up some what I think some interesting, maybe not surprising takeaways, but interesting takeaways nonetheless. Now LTL surveyed some 600 manufacturing leaders across the US and found. Here's a couple nuggets. 55% of manufacturers rely on automated machine data, while 50% still depend on manual frontline input. That 50 should be a lot higher. I think. 30% of respondents said that their data reflects the shop floor in real time. That seems high. Only 21% said they find it easy to access the data that they need. I can, I can relate to them back with my metal stamping days rails on an endless search seems like for the data I needed. And get this, 9% said that they could identify root causes in real time. Which leads oftentimes to their teams being stuck in costly growth stagnating firefighting mode. Again, these numbers don't necessarily surprise me, Ray. I know you've worked with thousands of manufacturers out there. Do they surprise you? Your thoughts, Ray?

Ray Atia (18:23)

Actually, some of those numbers are better than I expected. And so what I think still the missing gap is establishing decision making methodology. Without a decision making methodology, it's hard for you to then automate the system. For example, you don't want the, now that we have so much technology, you want the data to then go to the next step to say, here's what you should do with it. But with the absence of standards, you don't have standards, it's hard to make the decision. So for example, you know, is the data telling you to hire, right? Is the data telling you that you should add a second shift? Is the data telling you you should look for another supplier? So that's the next piece in the evolution is do we know what decisions we want to make and do we create the algorithm for the organization to listen to, you know, what the automated enabler tells you to do? So you think about what do you do with it? Do you hire more? Do you, you know, have to do reviews? So think of the decisions and ask yourself, okay, how do we make those decisions and how do we now tie that into the data? Again, there's data, there's information, there's insights, then there's actually actionable actions that maybe, you know, you automate that. Where the, you know, the next step is for it to actually take the action and, you know, post a job based on this, you know, so I think that's the area where a lot of organizations don't have agreement on the decision making systems, the management systems that then says, okay, here's how we then use the data. Because I see a lot of conflict in meetings that says, here's the data. Let's assume that we have one source of truth. The next step is, all right, what do we do with it? Do we all agree on how we interpret it and how we act?

Scott Luton (20:03)

2 thoughts come to mind here. Listening to your, your take on this story here in manufacturing dove. One is I go back to that 9% figure from the surve, right? 9% said they could identify root causes in real time, allowing them assumably to solve the issue, put it to bed and move on and fight the next battle, right folks, that we got to get there, right? Because firefighting mode. I think everyone likes to save the day. And Ray, we've talked about this timelessly over the years. Everyone likes to save the day, but it might feel good in the moment, but it's so costly. It's costly to the team member, is costed to the organization. And when you think about the impact down the line, especially if it were, if it just repeatedly happens, the cost to the ecosystem, suppliers, customers, you name it. Then the second thing I was going to mention, something you mentioned there, Ray, was I put this out on social media one time a couple years ago and Ray, oh my gosh, I had so many haters just throwing stones at me. But let's stick to my guns here. Visibility is not enough. Ray just mentioned the difference in information and data and then eventually he said and you've got actions you can take, right? What it tells you. And that's where it's an amazing time to be where we are. We still have lots more visibility to get, especially in deeper, you know, tears and whatnot. But if we're only gathering visibility, it's not good enough. Our people need solutions and they need to know what to do next. Ray, get your, your final thought here and we're going to move forward.

Ray Atia (21:28)

So I think it's back to what you said about okay, do we have the actions? The question then becomes is when you have 9% that identify the root cause, is that action being able to be taken by a frontline employee or is it still required to go through levels of approval? I think that's the element that when you have an organization that's exceptional, excellent, well run, then you know that, you know, somebody on second shift sees the data, they understand the root cause, they're empowered to take action without having to get approval. That's the next level. Because you know, we're going to get into some of this discussion here is, you know, when I look at last year, when I look at years where it's extremely, you know, challenging, it requires a tremendous amount of mental energy to focus on the strategic initiatives. When we're firefighting in the day to day operations, we are, you know, exhausted when it comes to the ability to think strategically.

Scott Luton (22:20)

And we are going to talk a lot more about that stuff here in just a minute. Really quick, before I get you to share one trend you're tracking in manufacturing, I want to go back for one quick comment and then I'm gonna get your take. I, I kind of laughed a minute ago folks when I mentioned that I was kind of in a very painful part of my career when I was in metal stamping and I was tracking down data. One of the worst projects, my least favorite projects in my entire life, Ray, we supplied parts to a tier 2 automotive supplier and we created some bad parts. But what I had to do as we, as we quarantined the parts we were trying to get and make sure we had separated all the good parts from the bad parts, had to go around to all the check check sheets at eat that each machine operator manually tracked and basically had to prove through our, all of our manual traceability to our automotive customer that until they were confident that we completely caught the bad parts. And it won't happen again. Ray I'm gonna tell you, I'd rather today get seven cavities filled the same day then go back to that three week project that was, that was very, that was purgatory Ray, as purgatory. Let me ask you this Ray, and again, I'm not throwing, hey, I loved all the wonderfully talented people across manufacturing, some of my favorite parts of my career. But when you think of the wonderful our beloved manufacturing industry, what's one trend you're tracking more than others right now?

Ray Atia (23:32)

Ray so the one trend that I'm looking at, and you just mentioned working for that small metal stamping company, biggest trend that I'm looking at is the ability for small mid sized manufacturers to stay independent. When I look at the cost of technology, cyber, you know, AI and then you add on to it property and casualty insurance, not to mention healthcare insurance, the rising cost of the talent that we should be paying a lot more for anyway, the material prices. So it's extremely challenging for an independent privately held, family owned manufacturer to not just survive but thrive, to have the ability for them to put in funding to support their growth. So that's the trend that I'm looking for. I mean if you look at the jobs report, I believe it was November of last year and you saw that there was 100, I believe it was 120,000 or 140,000 job losses in small businesses. The bigger companies were hiring, but the small companies were the ones being devastated. And I think that's true not just for manufacturing. I think that's across the entire ecosystem and businesses, the smaller companies right now. You know, when I started my first business, you know, almost 30 years ago, it was a lot easier, you know, I could go to my chamber, I can get health care now. It wasn't that expensive to put in a server, you know, buy a software package, you know, and then you owned it. Nowadays it's, you know, you're buying software, you're paying subscription, you add up all right, you have, you know, the cost of litigation. It's just very difficult for the small Guys. So that's the trend that I'm looking at for small manufacturers, is their ability to thrive. You know, and last year, you know, was just devastating for many of them. I actually had one of them tell me he didn't know if he would be able to put his daughter through college given the tariffs and some of the, you know, dynamics. You know, you got banks watching their credit, customers pulling back on orders. They don't have the pricing power to be able to push some of those, you know, price increases in, but at the same time, their big customers or suppliers are pushing them on them. So I think that's the challenge that I'm watching is how do they thrive? You know, I was part of my investment plans. I had, you know, a manufacturing company, so I stayed close to them. Now that they've, we've sold them and. But they've got, you know, bigger company support. And I think to this day, if it was, you know, just us, you know, aluminum prices, for example, you know, what's happening with the straight Hormuz and smelters, it's challenging.

Scott Luton (25:57)

Yep, I'm with you. And of course, the historic levels of uncertainty, and of course that doesn't just impact manufacturing, but you get, you lay out what Ray just laid out in terms of challenges and friction and constraints and obstacles for manufacturing leaders and their workforces out there pile historic uncertainty on so many different levels. On top of all that, it's tough time. It's tough time. All right, let's do this. We're about to enter the RAIA zone. You're going to enjoy some of the questions on poseray in just a second here on the Buzz, powered by dos. But we got one more news story and we've got one message here from our friends Wiley Jones and the DOS team. Folks, many things are not working good. Some say ERP is broken. To fix it, DOS has created something completely new. DOS ARP is the adaptive application core that combines a modular system of record with no code forms and workflows, all to manage and automate core operations. And guess what? It deploys three times faster than most alternatives and speeds up every step of your value chain by 10x or more. Hey, kick the tires on DOS. Take a demo and learn more. And be sure to connect Wiley and the team. Learn more@doss.com okay, Ray, speaking of manufacturing, one interesting story that I have been tracking, we've been checking in on regularly is the Boeing story. Let's see here. So looking at a continued Boeing turnaround story, reports CNBC reports That company has narrowed its loss in the first quarter and has increased deliveries of key aircraft. Company leadership. And they got a new CEO that started about a year and some change ago. Right. He had quite a, quite a task ahead of him. Company leadership reported that first quarter results were pretty promising. Sales rose 14%. Their net loss year over year for the quarter fell to 7 million versus 31 million a year prior. And in the months ahead, perhaps as early as summer, Boeing plans to ramp up production of its bestselling 737 Max from 42 units a month to 47 units. Units a month. Of course, this aircraft in particular has had all sorts of challenges, including that infamous blowout of a door panel, or I think it was a door plug in January 2024. That ray, if you remember that time a couple years ago, that footage of that door plug being blown out, and that was just on like repeat on every news channel. It just added to the woes that Boeing has lived through. But they're making a little bit of progress. Your thoughts on, on how Boeing, you know, your thoughts on Boeing.

Ray Atia (28:22)

So Boeing has lost customer and consumer confidence. And as you mentioned, the challenge that you had at the metal stamping company when you had a quality issue and you had to spend three weeks working on that quality control, the best you can do is go from not confident to neutral.

Scott Luton (28:39)

Right.

Ray Atia (28:39)

And especially when the process of identifying the root cost took so long. I believe it was the 737. Was it the 737 Max or which one were the ones also in Indonesia in Ethiopian Airlines that crashed? I think. Was that, wasn't that the Max as well?

Scott Luton (28:55)

I think it was. I'll double check. We'll see if a man can hook us up there.

Ray Atia (28:59)

But it was Boeing, it was Boeing. And what happened was they were going to market so fast with these products and they were trying to. I believe what I heard in one of my reading was basically trying to get around the regulations that required the pilots to go through extensive training. So they said, well, we're not going to call it a, a major ship. Well, guess what? The pilots were, you know, not prepared for that. So you lose confidence and not just the equipment or the quality, the systems, but also the integrity of the organization. And that is, you know, decades to repair. You know, people still remember the, the gas tanks blowing up from Fort from the 70s.

Scott Luton (29:37)

That's right. This, the Pinto.

Ray Atia (29:39)

Yeah. This is the, you know, the devastating blow for Boeing. I mean, I can tell you when I fly with my wife, she says it's not One of those new airlines. So we're looking at which airline we're flying and, you know, which aircraft. So I think the door has opened up for Airbus and I think this is the, you know, and again, in my book and some of those I talk about, you know, the ability to say yes, boldly. So it was definitely an opportunity for the competitors that opened the door. And it also makes people who want to join Boeing as employees skeptical. You know, do you want to join an organization that has that? So the, the word that you used a second ago was confident. And I think the devastating element for Boeing is confidence. Yes, you can cut your losses, yes, you can increase production. But, you know, it's, the question becomes is what does it take for you to win back the confidence that has been eroded? And I don't know if they've made that significant of a turnaround and admission to make people confident that the organization owns those problems.

Scott Luton (30:41)

Yes, Ray, Good stuff. Folks, a couple quick thoughts based on what Ray shared. Number one, there is a terrific. I think it's a Wall Street Journal or Netflix documentary that came out two, three years ago during the height the Boeing challenges. And it really does a great job examining how the culture had really eroded over time.

Ray Atia (30:59)

Right.

Scott Luton (30:59)

They moved to headquarters and they had labor battles and quality issues. It's outstanding if you want to better understand what Boeing's trying to, to recover from. Secondly, yes, it was the 737 Max had two big fatal crashes. Lion Air Flight 610 in October 2018 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 in March 2019. Big fatalities there. So one last thought. It's intriguing. I'll tip my hat because look, automotive, aviation, housing, I mean, you think about a short list of, of industries that are critical to economies and workforces and, and careers out there. Boeing had its work cut out for it to recover, and it looks like. Ray, one final word. The new leadership and I can't find, maybe Amanda can find their new CEO that came on a year and a half or so ago. It looks like there might be a pulse at the culture they're rebuilding. Are you, are you prepared to offer any, any high fives just yet, or should we wait a little while?

Ray Atia (31:54)

I think when we look at the relationship that they have with the frontline employees, if they can really rebuild that relationship with the front line, I think that we would start fist bumping. We'll start with the fist bump there if they can, because again, reputation wise, they've had some missteps when it comes to employee relations. And a number of other factors when it comes to supporting the frontline.

Scott Luton (32:17)

Right. Leadership, leadership failures from what I, some, some what I've seen read. Okay. And it was Kelly Ortberg. He is the still relatively new President CEO. He joined in August 2024. And gosh, Kelly's doing something I bet a lot of folks had no interest in trying to do. All right, shifting gears. Get ready for the. The Wayback Machine. Ray. I think that was on some show at some point. Check this out. Look at that smiling, glowing face. Ray. So, folks, you may have caught this episode. This was back before my opinion just

Ray Atia (32:48)

told me, okay, enough already. You're going to start wearing glasses all more often.

Scott Luton (32:53)

Well, sharp glasses. They look great. Ray. It's hard to believe this is already a year and some change ago, but this is way back in January 2025. Right. And we focused this, this episode, if folks caught it, on some of your tips for optimizing leadership effectiveness. Now, as part of this conversation, we dove into some of your big predictions. I'm going to ask you, and thank you for being willing. Right. I'm going to ask you, what do you think you got right on that episode and what do you think you got wrong? Ray.

Ray Atia (33:22)

So, so you're basically doing the abs on me.

Scott Luton (33:25)

That's right. I'm tapping my head up. Helmet.

Ray Atia (33:27)

That's right. Okay, now let's see here. So that was a fun episode. I loved it and it was really exciting. So I think I said, you know, and again, the viewers and others can decide whether or not they're right or wrong. So one of the things I said was, I believe last year 2025 was going to be a year of deceleration. And I think I was right with that one. Now, some people showed me their revenue numbers and their revenue numbers went up a little bit. And I said, okay, show me your units. So your revenue numbers may have gone up, but is that because you also increased your prices because of tariff costs and things of that nature? So they went back and they looked at their units and they were a little bit down. So I thought last year was going to be a year of deceleration. I thought it was going to be extremely disruptive. And so I think I was pretty right on that.

Scott Luton (34:11)

But I was wrong about really quick, before you go to what you're wrong. And I really appreciate your. You know, a lot of folks like sportscasters and weather forecasters, they never revisit their predictions because they don't like talking about where they're wrong. So I appreciate your willingness, but really quick, I'll say one thing and by

Ray Atia (34:26)

the way, don't mind, I've got my FC team here, so I'm going to be chugging here little plug for.

Scott Luton (34:31)

I love it.

Ray Atia (34:32)

FC Cincinnati.

Scott Luton (34:33)

I love it. All right, so back in. I think we recorded that in December 2024 and we published it in January 2025, as I recall. Now, if y' all remember back in that time frame, that was the new administration was, was a couple months in talk of tariffs and they had.

Ray Atia (34:49)

It was.

Scott Luton (34:49)

Oh, that's right, the. That's right. The elections had been had. They weren't inaugurated until January. That's right, that's right. But as we published that episode and as we were having those conversations, the talk of tariffs and trade negotiations, all that was was starting to crescendo. Now, Ray, I remember specifically talking during that episode and I felt pretty good that all of that was talk and we wouldn't see nearly the amount of action and friction and with every single trading partner, essentially. Ray, how wrong was I? Because I'm a. I'm going to tell you, we have fought with everybody trade policy wise.

Ray Atia (35:25)

But.

Scott Luton (35:26)

So that's where I certainly had got it wrong. What did you get wrong?

Ray Atia (35:30)

Ray? So what I got wrong was I thought it was going to be a deceleration year, but then I thought people then need to spend their time on strategy. And I believe that the biggest focus was going to be on their strategy to focus on growth. And looking back at it, the ones who did the best were the ones who really focus on execution. They were able to spend their time really sharpening their supply chains, working with their customers, adding down the hatches on their costs, cost controls, and really stabilize their business during all that disruption. So they were not investing in new bold growth at that time because there were too much uncertainty. They were making sure that their core business was, you know, solid. So. So I thought that because of the deceleration that then people would then spend their time on growth and strategy. What the ones who did exceptionally well. One worked on execution. So execution was, you know, paramount there. I think that another area that I thought that I said that I believe was going to be a key element was as we talked about earlier, storytelling. I thought people would have to do a better job of storytelling during the disruptor times. They did do that and they did well because they had to tell the story to their employees, what was happening, tell the story to. Right. And as far as talent goes, the shift from more talent to probably be More precise. I would say that one was in the middle. Yes, we need more talent, but it's not just volume, but different types of talent. And the last one I'd say I got wrong was the push on sustainability. You know, I was. And I own a solar company. What we saw last year was a significant rush toward cost reduction was driving the solar production more so than the, you know, ESG or sustainable strategies. When we saw, especially where we are in the PGM network, everybody's talking about data centers and, you know, we need more energy. The shift was more from a, you know, we want to do it right for the environment to we got to do it for a sustainable business. We saw many more customers come to us that I than I thought that were related to cost reduction. You know, so they're now making their own energy rather than buying it make money. Right. But that was a, you know, one that I was probably the very wrong on.

Scott Luton (37:46)

Well, you know, I appreciate your frank assessment, but your crystal ball probably works better than most folks I had known in my, in my journey. But hey, even the experts in the betting markets that know more than I'll ever know in my lifetime get a lot of stuff wrong. So.

Ray Atia (38:03)

Well, the volume and the volume was much higher, but it was for the different reason. Just like the M and A. I actually said M and A activity was going to be up. Third quarter was a record quarter, I believe. But okay, overall, the overall M and A activity was driven by a few mega deals. So the number of deals weren't as high as I expected. But I think this year will be huge for M and A activity, both in mega deals, but also a number of smaller deals. A lot of companies that okay on their businesses for some time. Last year's tariffs prevented people from exiting businesses because they don't want to exit them at a. At a tough year. So that's one area that was in the middle there.

Scott Luton (38:42)

All right, so Ray, do you hear this? Do you hear this sound?

Ray Atia (38:45)

Yes.

Scott Luton (38:46)

I'm writing down that last prediction.

Ray Atia (38:48)

Okay.

Scott Luton (38:49)

That 20, 26, I'm writing this down is going to be a banner year for M and A activity.

Ray Atia (38:55)

I am very confident about that one.

Scott Luton (38:57)

Okay, good, good, good. All right. Speaking of confidence. Speaking of confidence. I am confident that more folks need to be reading the fearless front line. Let me tell you what it's about. So this here, this is a book that many folks have ever seen me that are tuned into a show. Usually it's right over a left shoulder. I had to look down and see what shoulder Was yes, right over raised to. And by the way, where is it? This one's in my hand. Usually it's on that, on that rack. Really quick. Before I talk about the fearless front line, I want to give a shout out to my dear friend Will Quinn. This is a brand new book he just published, Modern Warehouse Management. It's now available. I think it officially launches on national supply chain day. But folks, Will is the warehouse guy. Go check out the book.

Ray Atia (39:38)

Congratulations.

Scott Luton (39:39)

That's right. Okay, so Ray again, usually this sits right there behind me on the left shoulder. You see, I've got it dog eared up and stuff from some of my favorite parts. And now this came out a long time ago. Long time ago was a big bestseller. And we're dropping a link, folks, where you can find used copies of it on Amazon at least. What are some of your favorite key elements? If folks picked this up and read it over a weekend, what's a couple things you hope that they would take from it?

Ray Atia (40:04)

Good question. So I think the focus on your top performers, you know, organizations, they talk about, you know, having standards, but often they spend too much of their time with their poor performers and build systems around their poorest employees and those become speed humps for your top performers. So I think if you build your systems around your top performers, you can will be surprised and relieved of how much, how liberating that is for your management team, your top performers, to empower them to run the business on their own so that the organization can focus on improving growth. So that's one of the key elements. If there's one thing I tell people is if you, you know, were to take one thing is spend, you know, the majority of your time with your top performers. The other one is really the business. You know, everybody talks about, you know, working on the business, not in the business. You have a lot of people who are firefighters. You talked about that earlier. Firefighting. Firefighting. Well, guess what? Often the best firefighters are also the arsonists.

Scott Luton (41:02)

Oh, like it.

Ray Atia (41:03)

They create fires so they become more relevant. They create chaos that they can solve it. They enjoy that, a realm of chaos because they thrive in that they know how to operate in a firefighting mode. What they don't have skills in is how do you build a vision, build a future, create. So the whole idea of running proof grow is, you know, standardize and systematize your front line. Build the ability to say yes, the ability to be bold, the ability to create confidence, and then you spend your time making proactive improvements to enable growth that keeps you relevant. Growth is not about size. Growth is about being relevant. And if you look at organizations now that are investing in different technologies, maintaining relevance, when a company compares and says, okay, supply chain now as an organization, is it valuable? They're going to look and say, okay, how relevant is it? What do you have that's unique? Not how. Yeah, yes, how big it is. But they also want to say, okay, you know, what's your intellectual property, what's your reach? Things of that nature. So a business needs to stay relevant. And that is the job of the senior grow team. Their job is to focus on, you know, where are we at five years from now? My wife is into horticulture and she asked me, when's the best time to plant a tree? And the answer is 20 years ago. And so ultimately, when is the time for us to have competitive advantage? We should have started that a long time ago so that we're not in a price competition and we have slim margins. So how are you separating yourself? So that's the job of the senior leadership team, is to be thinking about the future. You got a middle managers. Their job is to build the systems that enable growth and simplify the run. And then the front line owns the business. They own the run. You know, manufacturing, as you saw from your metal stamping company, had a second and third shift. Well, they were able to run that business with a frontline supervisor. Why can't they run first shift with a frontline supervisor? Right. And then the rest of the management team focuses on improving and growing the business. So that's the, the essence of it. So the book was called the Freer Frontline. When we ran out, it was actually top 30 business book of the year. We decided to focus into, you know what, the frontline part of it is just one piece of the whole methodology. But then we rebranded it under Run, Improve, Grow, same content, but we wanted to focus more on the methodology rather than one of the benefits which is a front line that could run the business without management involvement.

Scott Luton (43:28)

All right, so folks go find, you can find used copies of Run, Improve, Grow or the Fearless Frontline. But Ray, you have got some big news, related news and I know it's top secret. I'm not sure what you can tell me without lots of lawyers coming after us here. But when it comes to mfg.inc. where are you going next?

Ray Atia (43:49)

So we're building a team that has helped build that run proof growth system over the last few decades. And so they are going to be launching here in a few weeks or Doing is we're taking Run, Improve Grow and we're giving it a new home. Run Improve Grow in the past was under consulting business training business that we had Dfinity Partners, we sold that business. I have the rights to the Run Improve Grow methodology. So we licensed that out to the company that purchased it and and providing it as a license opportunity for others. So we're creating mfg.ink to focus on US manufacturers and we're housing Run Improve Grow into that. So it's going to be a training method which is going to be providing frontline leadership training that's going to use the best in on in person with digital and then we're going to be developing methodologies for people to license. If you have an, you know, an HR consulting business, an association accounting firm, an IT firm that specializes in manufacturing and want to use this Run Improve Grow methodology with license that out. So you know, some of the team, the band has come back together. You know, you know some of these folks like Rich Carey and Dan d' Agostino and then you've met Jamie Bryant who's the former president and she helped me with the book. So she's a whiz when it comes to intellectual property and digital strategies. So we've got a number of folks that we're bringing back together. But it's really taking Run Improved Grow housing it. And then, you know, when we had the consulting business we could only touch certain companies in the regions. But now we're going to be able to impact all manufacturers across the whole country of it.

Scott Luton (45:25)

Now folks, admittedly, and I'm going to be blatant about this, I'm very partial. I spent about two and a half years working with Ray and the team, working for them and seeing the results that Run Improve Grow had on organization after organization. Okay, so I'm very partial, but I'm gonna tell you, and I bet if you reach out to Ray and the team, they can give you all the case stories that you would like. But when you when that fearless Frontline, those incredibly talented people that can do so much that are truly the experts in any organization, when you empower them systematically methodology how you manage what you build, process wise, you name it, you empower them to truly run the business. You free up all this extra time really for the whole organization, but especially for the senior leaders to focus on innovating and growing the company, Big things happen. Big things happen. And one last comment. And then Ray, I'm going to got a couple more questions for you. Frontline is not just. Ray, we've talked about this a lot. The front line isn't just the operators. They also help innovate. They also help identify growth opportunities, continuous improvement opportunities. It is the some of the biggest, not so secret sauce that so many organizations out there just ignore. So anyway, Ray, your final comment around what the change you want to create out there and what you're going to be doing with mfg.ink.

Ray Atia (46:46)

so in America, I believe there's about 11 or 12 million manufacturing employees in this country. 80% of them are a frontline employee and they report to a frontline supervisor. So frontline Supervisors typically lead 80% of the workforce and they represent about 5% of the total number of employees and a company as a frontline supervisor. The people join companies and quit bosses. You know, I know my daughters have worked, you know, in Chipotle and other restaurants and other places and they come and tell me how awesome it is because of their boss, not because of Chipotle, but because of their boss. And, and when things change, they quickly can go down when that leader changes. So we're going to be launching in the early third quarter is frontline leadership certification. That's going to be bolder than we've ever made before. It's going to be built on the run, improve, grow methodology. But we're focusing on manufacturing frontline supervisors and that again leads 80% of the workforce. And on a daily basis they see all the areas to improve and they can take ownership. So that's one way for you to leverage 80% of your workforce. And when you're able to have confidence in your front line, as we talked about the word confidence earlier, that allows senior leadership not just time wise, but decision. You'd have heard the term decision fatigue. You know, the more decisions you make, the more exhausted.

Scott Luton (48:06)

There's a book called I'm very familiar with decision fatigue, Ray.

Ray Atia (48:10)

Yeah. So there's a book if you ever want a good speaker, David Rock, Dr. David Rock. But he's got a book and says every time you make a decision, it consumes energy, consumes oxygen. I had somebody who read my book when it was a manuscript tell me there's science behind run, improve growth. And I thank them for that. He went, I went and read the book from David Rock and Dr. Rock and he was exactly it. The more decisions you make, then it's, you're, you're taking away opportunities from the growth side so that frontline leadership and allowing them to own the, the run will free up and liberate Leaders be able to focus on improvement and growth. And then the. The other element is, you know, as we build. How do you build the confidence? We're going to be in the third quarter. I'm sorry, fourth quarter, Building a methodology to license the whole run, improved growth process that you saw that we did create a spark that will be available toward the end of the year.

Scott Luton (49:00)

All right, so, folks, go check it out. We're going to make sure you know how to connect with ratia here in a second. Ray, we're running out of time. I knew this was going to be a big bonus addition of the buzz. So, folks, bear with us. But, Ray, in as few words as you can, and you think of one thing that you'd love, you know, kind of going back to global supply chain and this incredible, challenging time for so many organizations and team members and leaders. What's one thing you challenge supply chain leaders with as we work our way through the rest of this real challenging year?

Ray Atia (49:28)

I think everybody's going to have a challenge when it comes to talent. I think everybody's going to have a challenge. Comes to decision making, I think everybody's going to have a challenge to creating new growth. So one area to really encapsulate all that is remove the barriers for your top performers. I call them speed humps. Speed humps are the speed bumps you see in communities because somebody drove too fast so that we slow everybody down. Let's remove the speed humps so that your top performers can be empowered. And what I see often is I see organizations put in more and more speed humps. It's a lot easier to put them in and to remove them. So build your policies, Build your HR systems, Build your reward systems around your top performers. Spend your time with them, but build your systems around them, and you'll be amazed of how liberating is for them and how liberating it is for you.

Scott Luton (50:19)

That's right. Good stuff, Ray. And Ray's given us all permission to shoot 65 miles per hour through our favorite neighborhood. Did you hear that? Kidding. Kidding. But, folks, that has actionable perspective, and it's based on been there, done that experiences from the many transformations that Ray and the team have been part of. Okay, so before we close, before we make sure folks know how to connect with Ray again. Thanks, everybody. Being here on this recorded edition of the Buzz, powered by our friends at doss. We're back live next week. I want to share a couple resources with folks, including our upcoming live programming. It's usually each week we got two or three live shows. You can go check everything that's currently scheduled right there on our upcoming live programming tab at the New. I'm going still call it new. It's about a year old now. The new Supply Chain now dot com. And while you're there and Ray, make sure it's on. It's on your calendar too. Our Resource Hub. No, that's not the sexiest name in the world, but it is a vault of perspective and white papers and, and actionable insights and a whole bunch more such as we got this great piece from our friends at Intersystems why Track and Trace is essential for modern supply chains. It kind of speaks to one of my favorite terms we've had some fun with over the years. Provenance, Ray. Provenance. So much. Many great conversations we had around that. But folks, check out that piece from Inner Systems and much much more at the Resource Hub which can be found again at Supply Chain now dot com. Okay, so Ray.

Ray Atia (51:42)

Yes sir.

Scott Luton (51:42)

You're here, you're there, you're everywhere. You're meeting and working with the movers and shakers across industry. There's a lot more we're have to bring you back on and talk about the whole solar energy. That's a fascinating space. But in the meantime, what's the easiest way for folks to track down and have a conversation with the one and only Ray Atia?

Ray Atia (52:00)

Probably the easiest way is my LinkedIn profile. So it's. I'm sure you can leave it in there. But you could also follow Run Improve Grow. You can follow my investment company Bull Promises Delivered or which is the the one that's going to be coming out with a new website in June here mfg.ink. that's the best way to to reach out and connect with Jimmy Bryant, Rich Carey, Dan d'. Agostino. They are incredible, an incredible team. That's chapter nine of my book Build the Dream Team.

Scott Luton (52:26)

Build the Dream Team. It's one of the chapters I. I skipped over that chapter, Ray. I gotta go back and reread it.

Ray Atia (52:31)

I always tell people when they read the book, start with chapter nine and go back and read chapters one through five. And then six, seven and eight is probably the advanced section if you want. But start with nine and then you'll understand why one through five matter so much.

Scott Luton (52:45)

Love it. And we're dropping a link. Go check out the book. And folks, whatever you do right, even if you don't get help from ray and the mfg.ink team, this run Improve Grow model, right? This Run Improve Grow mindset is so powerful. So get your help from somewhere. And what if you. And if you need reasons and you can't find reasons, do it for your people. If for no other reason. But I'll have to park it there. Ray, big thanks. God, my friend, you're so the bold and fearless Ray Atia. Ray, the bold and fearless Ray Atia. Thanks for being here, my friend.

Ray Atia (53:17)

Scott, you're doing exactly what I always tell people is stay relevant, be bold. You know, starting this business is inspiring. And, Scott, it's always a pleasure being with you and everybody on your team who's made this process easy to just connect with you and just get up on this podcast and just, you know, just have a chat with you. It's awesome.

Scott Luton (53:35)

It's the best thing we've ever done together. And big shout out to Amanda and Trisha and the whole team behind us that makes production happen. Big thanks to our friends at Doss. Hey, learn more about the innovative things they're doing over at Doss. D O S S.com and most importantly, folks, the reason we do it all. Big thanks to our global audience, the SCN Global fam. Appreciate all the feedback and the input and conversations. Keep it all coming. Feedback, they say, Ray, feedback is a blessing. Would you agree?

Ray Atia (54:02)

Absolutely. And you have to, as you said, the critics, when they. When they give you feedback for your stuff, that means you've hit an emotion. And, you know, sometimes you may not like it, but you have to ask yourself, what are they asking and what did they not know? So I'm going to. Don't let it get you down, but let it, you know, feel you.

Scott Luton (54:18)

So that's right. Turn it into fuel and keep on marching forward, folks. We heard a lot. Thanks for joining us here on the buzz, folks. You know, you've got homework. We've got a lot of great, actionable perspective from Ratia here. You got to take one thing, just take one thing, do something with it, right? Share it with your team, put it into practice. You know, it's all about deeds, not words. That's how we're going to keep transforming global business and not leave anybody behind. And with that said, on behalf of the entire supply Chain Now Team Scott Luton challenge. You do good forward. Be the change that's needed. We'll see you next time right back here on Supply Chain Now. Thanks, everybody.

Announcer (54:52)

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