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You don't compete on volume, you dominate on orchestration. Right. The trucks and planes will always be there, but the profit will belong to those who own that data directs and controls the supply chain. So that's something that I'm seeing Singapore trying to do or needs to do. Not doing it fast enough in my opinion. And that's a huge opportunity for us.
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Welcome to Supply Chain now, the number one voice of Supply Chain. Join us as we share critical news, key insights and real supply chain leadership
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from across the globe.
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One conversation at a time.
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Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you may be. Scott Luton with you here on Supply Chain now. Welcome to today's show folks. We got a great show teed up here today as we're going to be talking with a few friends of the show and some big time industry leaders about global supply chain trends. We're going to be taking a closer look on the supply chain landscape across Asia, including some of the cool things that Singapore is doing in Southeast Asia. Plus where you get our panel's take on some of their favorite AI use cases, how the skills gap is going to continue to evolve over the next few years and some of the fantastic supply chain programming and events that's just got to be on your radar. All that and much, much more. So stick around for a great conversation. It's going to offer up tons of actual insights by the pallet load. Okay, so let's welcome in our wonderful guest joining us today, starting with Dr. Raymond Krishnan, President of the Logistics and Supply Chain Management Society. He is a 30 year veteran of the Singapore logistics sector where I bet he's just about seen it all. Raymond is also a certified logistics professional and a fellow of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport. He specializes in supply chain resilience and digital transformation to lead high performing businesses and supply chains. Now Raymond currently leads the regional effort to reskill and upgrade logistics professionals for the AI driven economy through the Logisim and cargo now platforms. Raymond, how you doing sir?
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Great Scott. Great to be here and thank you for having us.
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You bet. Well, you know what, we'd be good with you and me, but you bring great friends and it's going to get even better. So I want to introduce our Brett Marshall, Editor in Chief with Logisim magazine. Now, Brett is an accomplished transformation leader with 35 years in logistics, supply chain and quality, including 30 years in the very complex pharmaceutical industry. He is passionate about quality, safety and sustainability, dedicated to making healthcare accessible while ensuring product integrity and patient safety. And he's a Respected advocate in the fields of anti counterfeiting and brand protection. How about that? Brett has worked in a variety of countries, including Australia, Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, Bangladesh and Singapore. And he holds a variety of certifications and serves on numerous boards and associations, including International Supply Chain Education Alliance, APAC, ISP, ISP, Women in Pharma, and APAC. I'm going to call it GANT 5 Communities of Practice. Brett, I hope I didn't butcher any of that, but great to have you here with us.
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Great job, Scott. Now, happy to be here. And as Ramon said, it's very exciting for us to be involved with supply chain now.
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C
Same. I admire what you both and your organization and community does to further industry both in your home region and globally. And it's great to have y' all both here. So what we're going to do, Brett and Ramon, is start with, you know, I love my fun, my cheesy fun warmup questions. I love humanizing our guests a bit before we get into all things supply chain. And Raymond, I want to start with you because on a personal vacation or holiday, you took there was a strong supply chain analogy at play because you ventured down one of the most dangerous roadways in all of the world. And I think we've been there, it seems like, from a global supply chain standpoint, in recent years. But tell us about that and what was your why for going down this stretch?
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Well, every year I try and do something a bit challenging just to learn something new, challenge myself, new opportunity, meet people. So what I did in the tail end of last year, me and a bunch of friends, we rode our motorcycles on the Sarge Pass in the Himalayas. And if you look at National Geographic and a lot of Shiro, Wasatch Pass is considered one of the 10 most dangerous roads in the world. So we ended up at 16,000ft. So it was minus 2 degrees Celsius temperature. Wow, drizzling cold. I had food poisoning that day. And you don't want to have food poisoning on the back of a motorcycle, trust me. At 16,000ft, where you're not used to riding that high, you know, so like. But it was a great experience and I did it with my son. Really enjoyed ourselves. We spent about seven days on the back of bikes. Yeah, it was great. So my wife doing it is, you know, like I said, every year I try to do something different, learn a new skill just to keep active and keep learning more and more. And just like in our industry, things are always changing. So you want to keep, you know, keep abreast of things.
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C
I love it. And what's your son's name? Ramon.
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Joshua.
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Joshua. Okay. So I bet you got some great pictures we're going to see later of you and Joshua. And one last question. The roadway. I know you mentioned it in your response, but what was that again?
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The sarge Frost S a C H pass.
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Okay, I'm gonna have. We're all need to look that up, folks. Assange pass. And I love. At a higher level. I love. We all need to get out of our comfort zone regularly because whether you do it for industry and professional development or you do for just your personal journey, that is a great rule of thumb. All right, so, Brett, that's gonna be tough for you to surpass, but I gotta tell you, you know where we you and I first met, I think it was on LinkedIn maybe. And we were talking. We're both basketball fans. You may be a bigger fan than I am. You may have played. I did not. I could not shoot outside. I could not shoot inside. But Brett, I am a big Atlanta Hawks fans. Of course we've got some terrific Australian professionals on the team. But tell us about your love for basketball or sports in general.
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D
Scott. I'm a Melbourne boy and so Melbourne people are crazy about sport and it doesn't really matter what sport it is. We. We make a competition of two cockroaches running across the floor. But I think probably it was another thanks to Netflix that turned me on to watching basketball with a greater interest. And there's always been Australians involved in the NBA, but you know, we've got some really great talent that's playing in the US at the moment, so it's exciting to watch. And of course the Atlanta Hawks have Dyson Daniels and he is a genuine star. I think the Hawks have done pretty well out of the most recent trade period, so. So let's keep our fingers crossed. They might be able to turn their season around.
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I'm with you. And you know, not that a Hawk nerd out or anything, but I think. I think Jack Landell is. I may be messing up his name. The new center.
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Yes, yes.
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He's Australian as well, right, Brett?
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He is, he is. And definitely someone that's worth having on the plank and ready to come onto the court.
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C
Okay, you see there Raymond and Brett, I love. He just referred to what we call the bench in the US the plank is what Brett said, which sounds much more highfalutin. Brett. So I'm going to embrace some both of Yalls terminology. Okay, so we got a lot to get to here today, y' all are deeply involved in global supply chain and that community and in helping folks in and organizations get better what they do. I want to start with you, Raymond, and, and kind of a broader opening question here, because we're going to be focusing a lot on Asia and Southeast Asia, but when you look at the landscape across the supply chain, landscape across Asia and especially Southeast Asia, are you more optimistic or more cautious and why?
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Ramon I think I'm more optimistic and more cautious as well. SCOTTISH I'm optimistic because, like, you know, post Covid or during COVID especially, the world realized how important supply chain and logistics is. So there's been a lot more focus, a lot more development, a lot more interest in what we do. So from that perspective, I'm optimistic. And especially also with the rebalancing that we're seeing in supply chains, there are more opportunities being created. I am more cautious because of everything that's happening, all the conflict, what's just started. It's sad, it's challenging, and you could say it's an opportunity for you to relook at what you're doing, but, you know, I think that cautiousness has to prevail because it's not an evolution that we're seeing. You know, it's not tariffs, but, you know, with conflict that's happening in different parts of the world, this is something we want to be cautious about.
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C
You know, I'm with you and I think that's, that's a, an answer that I've got a lot of kindred spirits around, for sure. Brett your take optimism, caution and why.
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D
Yes, Scott, I think I, I share Ramon's view of, of optimism and, and caution. And I, I think, you know, my experience in the pharma industry has tuned my risk management mantra and I think one of the things that we've learned, particularly since the pandemic, is a much stronger culture of risk management. And I think that's what makes it exciting. I mean, particularly in the pharma industry, there was always an element of focus on quality, being responsible for risk. I think nowadays we accept that risk is an organisational issue and much broader than that. And I think that starts to equip us much better to deal with the situations that are evolving. And I think we just cannot take for granted that every disruption that we encounter is the last disruption. Jake Barr has a great saying about being the new never normal. And I think that's what we have to accept for the future. And the past weekend was another great example of that we had our eye on tariffs and now we've got to have our eye on what are disruptions taking place around the Gulf of Hormuze and the Hormu Strait. So there's great, I think there's a great skill development in supply chain and logistics and that will continue around risk management. And yeah, we have to look to be cautious for what's going to come next because there will always be something that comes next.
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C
So very true. And I tell you, I may be partial, but there's few industries or a few professions that have to constantly keep their eye not on what's going on right now, but what's around the corner and then around the next corner, like supply chain management. It really is more or less unique aspect of it. So I want to do this. A lot of themes y' all both shared in your responses. We're going to touch on more as we get into this conversation. But I want to ask you. One of my favorite things to do and one of my favorite things to urge folks to do is to get past the headlines. I think we have been trained, at least large parts of society, to look at a headline and make a snap judgment and not to dive deeper. Right. Our media is really good at giving you just enough. Right. But you dive deeper and it's usually not so bad or not so good. Right. I don't know. But. So I want to ask you both, Raymond, starting with you, what do you see on the ground, right, especially there in Southeast Asia or regionally, that global headlines might be missing?
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Well, I think not so much missing, Scott, but I think one of the things that we need to be mindful of, we are being bombarded, especially with the current administration, with things happening every other day, be it tariffs or be it disagreements or be it new perspectives. So we need to be cautious and not react to everything as well. Secondly, not to be distracted because it should be business as unusual. You need to continue evolving, doing what you have to do. Goods still have to move. And, you know, like a lot of hype recently around AI and how it's going to be a game changer, people are going to lose their jobs, all these opportunities, these things take time to bid in, albeit faster than what we've seen in the last 20, 30 years. But also be aware of false prophet. You know, so a lot of guys coming up with new concepts and ideas, especially around AI but is it really executionable? Is it really real? Is it going to benefit your supply chain and how you move things, how you plan, how you ship so be aware, don't get distracted and also stick to the fundamentals. Because with everything that's changing, relationships are still important. Being and doing what you say you're going to do and deliver it, that's still a fundamental thing that doesn't change. And especially in logistics and supply chain, you're only as good as your last shipment. So yes, not so much missing, but also don't be distracted, don't be inundated with that overflow of information and stick to the fundamentals.
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C
I like it. I think the first part of your response, the word that shot between my ears was discernment and the value of discernment. It's always been historically important and valuable. But gosh, right now, especially with all the constant micro decisions and to your point, the tidal wave of distractions, all of which aren't, the majority of which are not important, but discernment. All right, so Brett, same thing, getting past headlines, your thoughts?
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D
Yeah, I think, you know, if we look at the situation in Asia, I think there's generally a positive view of what's happening in this region. You know, the significant contribution that it makes to the global economy, the continued growth of the region economically as well. But there are still, you know, they're beneath those headlines and you know, benefiting from companies moving from China plus one. China plus many certainly has seen some of the countries given an opportunity to develop their manufacturing sectors across a range of industries. But there's still infrastructure that needs to be developed and you know, some of the port systems that that also need to be developed in some of the markets. We were with one of the big shipping lines today and they were talking about, you know, a shift from or an increasing demand for intra regional trade. And so how do they match the infrastructure that they have at the terminal level, but also the capacity that they have from shipping and also from, you know, TEE to EU capacity. So these are some of the issues that have to be dealt with. I think also Asia is seen as a region, but it doesn't necessarily behave as a region that you have organizations like ASEAN which at a high level certainly bring together countries to develop policy around trade and that sort of thing. But how policy is translated into execution is a little bit of a different story. So, you know, it's still very much a country by country prospect in terms of regulation and customs management and those types of things. So I think that positive layer that's put across the top, yes, there are positive aspects, but there's still a lot of work for the region to do. To be able to really leverage the potential that it has.
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C
Hmm. You know, Brett, one of the things you mentioned there with when it comes to regulations and policies, I saw some McKinsey data yesterday that said globally in policy and regulation aimed towards our industry has quadrupled since 2017. Now, I bet the US has produced a lot of that and we've caught up, especially in recent years. But still, that speaks to just the. It's just one part of the complexity equation. Right. So good stuff there, Brett. Ramon, you said something in your response earlier and I want to revisit it. You're kind of referencing what I would, what I interpreted as kind of that rebalancing versus reinvention. So I want to ask you both at a higher level, right, we're going to go back to Southeast Asia in a minute, but at a higher level, globally, do you see this as a rebalancing moment where global supply chain is essentially the same, but it's adjusting after the pandemic and inflation and tariffs and of course, unfortunately, lots of geopolitical turmoil, or is this a reinvention moment where we're really redesigning the whole model? Raymon, your thoughts?
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I think if I had to choose one or the other, it's reinvention. You know, I was in China in the first quarter of last year just when the tariffs were announced, and the whole world, all the media within the logistics society, everyone was talking about how are we going to pay for these tariffs, what's the impact going to be, et cetera, et cetera. And then when I went to China, I expected that conversation to continue, but I was sitting in a room of logistics professionals and it did not even come up in the whole two days that I was there. The attitude of the people in that room was fine. When one door closes, another opens. Let's just get one on with it. There's Europe to do business with with. There's Africa, there's the Middle east, there's Asia, which is a huge and growing economy. Let's just get on with it. Reinvent, if you like what we're doing, look for different markets. And then that was also where you've got the evolution of, you know, humanoid robotics coming in and artificial intelligence. So yes, there are those challenges. But look at all the developments that are taking place. See, there's an opportunity. Let's reinvent what we do, move ahead faster with the reshoring, near shoring initiatives that we started looking at during the pandemic and just get on with it.
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C
Ramon, I love that Constructive, practical optimism. We're going to, we're going to take our licks and get. We got to keep moving because global trade is a very beautiful thing and it really helps create so much opportunity for folks and organizations and industries around the world. Brett, your response. Rebalancing versus reinvention.
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D
I think actually at a high level we're certainly seeing some rebalancing, but I think as a result of that rebalancing, we're also seeing some quite significant reinvention. And again, I'll come back to the manufacturing sector where we, you know, pre pandemic, we had a lot of globalization and in the post pandemic area and as we head into more serious disruption for a variety of reasons, we're seeing a lot more execution capability, manufacturing capability being established in markets. And even markets that were accustomed to kind of manufacturing kind of more low value generic type items are now looking to become, you know, more developed in terms of higher investment, higher value items. And if I look at the pharma industry in particular, the ability to move away from just manufacturing generics to manufacturing biological products and those types of things. So it's happening at two levels, I think.
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C
Yeah, feels like two. Two levels some days. It feels like 2,282 levels other days. Right. And we're going to have you back, Brett, to talk pharmaceuticals, because that's a fascinating industry, but something you all both. Well, I want to ask you this. Both of y' all call Singapore, you both travel quite a bit, but you call Singapore home, right? Beautiful part of the world. And this isn't going to be a very fair question, but I'm asking anyway, what's the single biggest shift happening in Southeast Asia? Logistics right now, Ramon?
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A
Yes, we're looking at shifting supply chains because of everything that's happening. But I think what's also interesting, and maybe we don't hear so much about the domestic growth within those ASEAN countries or the Asian countries. So it's not just supply chains shifting because, you know, of tariffs and trade wars, but also domestic demand in countries like the Philippines, Indonesia, these are all growing economies. Indonesia is what, the third largest populous, the third most populous country in the world, I'm not mistaken. And that domestic growth is happening, people's lives are getting better, the demand for products are happening. And also, Brett touched on it earlier where we talked about China plus one or China plus many alternative sources of supply because yes, China was the engine, the manufacturing basket of the world. But countries like Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia are developing as well as countries that can produce good material and equipment and stuff that people need. So yes, there is that shift happening, but the shift isn't just happening because of trade wars and conflict. It's evolutionary as well.
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C
Raymond, I love that answer and I got it reminds me, that's the second time I think China plus one or plus many has come up in our conversation here today when we got together that y', all, y' all hosted this great event a couple weeks ago and folks can find the replay out there. But there was a panel of a dozen different supply chain leaders and I think y' all got confused by inviting me to the panel because I sat there and learned from, from some brilliant minds. But but one of my favorite parts that came out of that kind of as a, if you think of China plus one as a ying, the Yang was USA plus one, meaning on the consumption side kind of to your point, Ramon, companies have, have exports, have found many, many other markets. And that's been a fascinating shift here globally in, in recent months and maybe years. Brett, Same thing, unfair question, but one of the biggest shifts happening in Southeast Asia logistics right now.
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D
No, I think that the origin was probably the pandemic and the fact that Asia, I think, felt at times that it didn't get the same amount of attention in terms of supply chain needs that the US and potentially Europe as well had. Again, I would use pharma as an example where the allocation of medications was not a priority necessarily for countries in Asia or some of the countries in Asia. And I think the realisation coming out of the pandemic from many of the members of the Southeast Asian nations especially, was we cannot afford to rely on other regions anymore. We need to be able to develop our capabilities internally to be able to meet the challenges that are going to occur in the future. And so that's seen, I think a number of governments switch their policy mechanisms to investment in developing capabilities and infrastructure, which is in turn impacting logistics and supply chain infrastructure and capabilities to be able to deal with what comes in the future and their ability to act as a region, as I said earlier, it hasn't evolved to the level that say the European Union has today, but it took the European Union several decades to mature to that level as well. So I think that's a relatively new opportunity for the Asia region and how it starts to pull together. There's still that kind of the tendencies are country focused, but I think they recognize that at some point there's going to be need to be a much more regional focus.
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C
Yes. You know, Brett, you look any. Brett and Ramon, you look any part of the world. And the trade alliances, agreements, there's very few that happen overnight. I mean from the eu, as you pointed out to, you know, NAFTA took hundreds of years between Canada, Mexico and the US to the continental trade deal that Africa has recently and all the countries that make up that beautiful continent has, has put in place any part of region. So I do agree with you, Brett. I think the continued maturity as these regions continue to come, more formal, formally collaborate, and the doors of opportunity that's going to open is going to be something to watch. We have made it halfway through this conversation and I've been keeping track, but I don't think any of us, all three of us have mentioned AI yet. We are breaking rules. Raymond and Brett, we're breaking rules. So I want to ask you both, Raymond, I'm circle back to you here. There's so many. Yeah, we could be here all day talking about it. But in terms of some favorite use cases, you've seen companies use AI to produce consequential outcomes. Raymond, what's one of your favorite ones there?
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A
I've got a couple. But you know, that's one of the great things about being involved with the logistics and supply chain Management society. Aside from my day job, I get to interact with so many interesting people, individuals. Brett said it. You know, we had lunch with a major shipping line today, one of the top three in the world, and they shared with us what they were doing. And then I spent the afternoon at a trade show here in Singapore. Only 35 exhibitors, so that's very, very small, especially when you compare it to the US but after spending three hours in the show, I only managed to cover half of the number of booths because at almost every booth I was meeting interesting people, learning new things, new technologies and etc. Etc. But if I had to pick one, I've come across or we've been looking at planning and procurement quite a fair bit at the society because of the symposiums that we're running. And I came across this company recently and I've known them for a while, but I've had the opportunity to find out a bit more about them, where they are redesigning the value chain. That's what they say they're doing by moving away from manual reactive sourcing to an autonomous bot lab model. So, you know, a bit of a mouthful. They've got a nice website. Everyone claims to be able to do everything, you know, but I think like we all know, all of us run off Excel spreadsheets. You know, there's a slow human decision making process. That veracity of the information you have and the continuity of that information in a database falls off when people leave and et cetera, et cetera. And then of course we've got tariff spikes and port instructions that add to the mix. So this company implements AI sourcing bots, right? So they handle tactical or spot buys and the bots autonomously communicate with carriers, they analyze the bid complexity and then they award contracts automatically based on preset strategic guardrails. I've seen a couple of demos. If I had a use for it, I'd adopt it myself and try it in my organization. But it's just great, like the accuracy, the speed and really the application. For a guy who's been in the industry for the last 30, 35 years, seeing what AI can do in this instance is brilliant.
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C
I'm with you. And to your point, in a broader sense, the procurement space and its utilization of AI currently and moving forward is nothing less than fascinating. Brett, same question. AI, what's one of your favorite use cases?
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D
Yeah, I think with, as Ramon said, we're fortunate in some ways in the work that we do with the logistics and supply chain management society and also with Logisim in having the opportunity to meet companies that are at the forefront of developing solutions for industry. And what's great is what I really, really like is when I see people who've been in the industry for 25 or 30 years, or 30, 35 years, like myself, and they've got off the bus and they start driving, you know, types of solutions to address, you know, the types of problems that they've experienced for themselves. And I think that adds tremendous value. We do have a particular solution that we look at here that's around freight management and also emissions, emissions capture and reporting. And they've developed the bots to be able to ingest years and years and years worth of freight related information that helps them then manage logistics and transportation invoices. So they're able to clean up, you know, the documents that they're receiving from the existing suppliers of the customers that they're talking to. And so that's helping them to improve the accuracy of the invoicing that they're managing. It's reducing the anomalies that you find in invoices over billing, contract non compliance and those types of things. But also they've linked it to ESG and emissions Intelligence and built in the logic to capture those scope. Three emissions for transport, which is one of the most challenging areas for operators to manage. And so it's a really nice solution. It can give tangible outcomes in terms of savings, 4, 5, 6% in transport spend through the capabilities and then helps also in potential positive impacts for managing ESG more effectively. So this is a really nice solution. And what also excites me is the passion of the people behind the solution and the development doesn't stop. So you know, they've achieved two or three of their objectives already but they're looking at the way that the industry is evolving and what can they do to meet the next challenge. And I think that's really what's what I like most.
- [32:20]
C
Brett, so much comment on there but one thing is the development doesn't stop. Especially the of course the agentic AI bot driven development man, they need to take, they need to learn how to take a lunch break. I think maybe not. But another thing you mentioned that reminded me of my time in manufacturing where we'd have customers come in and make supplier visits, right. And we'd have lunch and they do a plant tour, all that stuff. How long before we see bots making supplier visits? We'll see. Is that going to be something?
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A
I don't know.
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C
All right, so let's talk about all of this really begs the question because I'm going to circle back to one of all, I think all three of ours, favorite components of global industry. Maybe the favorite is the beautiful human factor. Right. I'll tell you, we've all, you know, you both have been in industry for quite some time road Dubos with I bet some brilliant people that brought the most innovative and incredible solutions. And Raymond, you mentioned of the power of relationships. When you think about the skills that the human workforce has to have in place to find success, growing success in global supply chain and how that skills, whether it's the skills gap or just the overall tool belt is going to evolve next three to five years. Raymond, what do you see there? What's one of your observations there?
- [33:37]
A
Let me set this in context. With the society we have something that we call the Shipper's Council. So that's made up of about 120 companies at the moment who spend anything in excess of US$100 million on logistics. So they're normally larger multinational companies operating in different geographies. And one of the things that I see in this group of 120 logisticians is that as the group has evolved and developed over the last few years, you're starting to see this bifurcation or this Filtering. We've got some guys who are very progressive, experienced, they become senior leaders within their organization. And then there are others who either through choice or through circumstances, stay within their roles. And many people in Singapore, we run Asia Pacific Logistics, either anything from China down to Australia, New Zealand, and then from India, Japan and Korea. And then there's a third bunch of guys who are stagnating, for want of a better word. And we've addressed this a couple of times in the meetings and the conversations that we've had. So if you talk about the skills gap and when I look at this group that we have within the logistics society, the biggest skills gap is not education or lack of opportunity. The biggest skills gap to me is that unwillingness to learn and develop. I learn something new every day about, like I said, I visited a trade show earlier today, I spent half a day there and I barely got through half the number of booths because there's so many new things developing and that's happening every day that you can take and apply 10, 5 or 10% of that and you will improve your operation. So I think that big skills gap is that unwillingness to learn or stagnating and saying, yeah, I've been doing this job for 35 years, you can't teach me anything new, you know? You know, so yeah, that is a,
- [35:55]
C
as you're pointing out, is such a dangerous mindset. And we all know how. I might not call it prevalent, but there's a lot of it out in industry, right? And whether you're just coming in or whether you've been around for a while, that book, who Moved My Cheese? I think we're living in an era where our cheese is being moved by the minute. And to your point, our mindset and our ability to embrace it, right, and learn through it and manage through it and apply it and, and kind of be ever present and that's in that type of environment is going to be important for, for everybody. Great stuff there. Ramon, Brett, same thing. Skills, skills gaps. Some of your observations there.
- [36:36]
D
One of the things that always strikes me, I, I started my career long time ago now, but as a transport supervisor, you know, distribution company. But my role, you know, first thing in the morning was always to, to walk around and literally kick the tires and make sure the trucks look good, make sure the fuel was okay, the fuel levels were all right and had to do all that stuff before you arrived. And I sort of feel that as we progress, those types of entry level positions into the industry are potentially being degraded partly by AI and partly by cost management. But one of the positives I think is that we've also seen, I think, a good contribution from industry to the logistics and supply chain practitioners of the future during their education phase. I mean, you've been involved in doing this yourself, Scott, and I know Marty Parker is another great example of people who are developing the minds for the future. So I think that's a really positive step. I always wonder whether the time that we spent learning how to do things and learning how to respond, I know AI can mitigate some of that time spent. But I think the ability to manage people and to be humble and to show empathy, I think these are skills that we really need to be able to teach people to have and teach the leaders of the future to have.
- [38:18]
A
Yes.
- [38:19]
D
So yes, there are potential skill gaps, but I still, we were in Malaysia last week and we visited a couple of universities that are involved in training logistics and supply chain people for the future. And their focus on having strong industry engagement was really impressive. And I think that was one of the things that we enjoyed the most that, you know, one of our takeaways was, was, you know, how we as an organization, as an industry continue to contribute to the skill development of, of the future leaders in our industry. And there's certainly some challenges, but there's, there's a lot of positives as well.
- [39:02]
C
Agree. And at a high level, very high level. I bet both y' all agree with me here. When you think of your overall, for all the business leaders and hiring managers tuned in here, when you think about your overall talent management strategy, of course, every organization out there worth its salt, weight and salt or whatever that phrase goes all, you know, talent attraction. Right. It gets all the attention, there's growing attention on, on talent retention and that's a great, that's good news. But if you're not in a very formal, dedicated, deliberate sense focused on developing your talent kind of to your points, you're going to be in trouble. You're going to be in, you're already in trouble. So we can't talk enough about talent for the sake of time. I'm going to move forward because I want to talk about all the cool things going on in Singapore where you both call home, which I look forward to visiting soon. I appreciate the invite to a big event. We're touch on here in a minute and who knows, we'll see if supply chain now logistics can, can, can work out. But anyway, Singapore has long been a logistic powerhouse, but you've got some new things coming Online port modernization is the Chiangi expansion. Hope I'm saying that right. And of course digital trade initiatives are accelerating and of course the talent continues to innovate and develop. Give me some thoughts Ramon, on where Singapore is is headed.
- [40:23]
A
Well, aside from the expansion of Changi Airport, we're also increasing the size of our maritime port with a capacity of about 65 million TEUs when it's fully developed. But something else that's happening and I think we need to joke about is the Special Economic Zone that's being developed in the southern part of Malaysia. It's called the sez, the Southern Economic Zone. And what we're seeing as a result of this, a whole bunch of companies moving their logistics and distribution and even their manufacturing and even R and D to Malaysia, which is 15 minutes away on a good day. So you cross the border and things are generally a third of the cost of doing in Singapore. Whereas labor, land, buildings, infrastructure, I mean it's not very far away if you look at the map. So what we've seen over the last couple of years and Singapore is supporting this, right, we are moving away from the transactional, just moving boxes from A to B using manual management layers, etc. Etc. Those more transactional, more operational tasks, we're looking at moving them to the Special Economic Zone. And then what we're looking at doing is doing the more high value at the control tower stuff, the planning, the procurement activities and also the high value manufacturing and logistics activities, cold chain pharma, you know, Brett's area of expertise. So there are a lot of moving parts. You've got that macro environment that's happening around global trade, tariffs, conflict, etc, but we've also got an evolution or that development happening here in Singapore. And you know, I don't know if you read my article from a couple of weeks ago where I talked about UPS laying off about 30,000 people and also Amazon as well as they decouple their supply chains and they're getting more fragmented and regionalized and I drew a parallel between that and what's happening in Singapore, you know, and the parallel was, you know, it used to be when we went for high volume, the more boxes we moved, the more warehouses we had, the better. But what did UPS decide to do? They decided not to go for that high volume, transactional, low margin business and focus on things that make money. Right? So you don't compete on volume, you dominate on orchestration. Right. The trucks and planes will always be there, but the profit will belong to those who own that data, directs and controls the supply chain. So that's something that I'm seeing Singapore trying to do or needs to do. Not doing it fast enough, in my opinion. And that's a huge opportunity for us.
- [43:28]
C
Yes, yes. I'll tell you, in some aspects of global industry, things are going plenty fast enough for me. And the other aspects, to your point, we'd like to pick up a little bit of speed. And then the other point, one of the big points, and it's so it's exciting to hear Singapore and Malaysia and some of the really cool things going on there. But to one of your business points made, all volume is not equal. Right? All volume is not equal. It's got to be smart business, which, of course, is nothing new, but some organizations are taking newfound discipline to that. All right, so, Brett, same thing, same question. Singapore's on the move. So many different developments taking place across industry. Ramon touched on a lot of those. Your thoughts?
- [44:08]
D
Yeah, I think right back to the days of Lee Kuan Yew, Singapore has had a tremendous capacity to look into the future and to make sure that it architects the infrastructure and the capabilities that it has. And this extends to not just the infrastructure that they invest in, but also the way that they're educating people and the opportunities that they're making for the education of students. And I think this is also continuing. Yes, Changi is showing great vision in the expansion and the addition of fifth terminal and some much enhanced cargo handling capability was a little bit delayed by Covid, but it's now well underway. And I think, as Ramon said, the high level of digitization, almost to the point of no human involvement in the port operating system that's being developed. And what makes life interesting, I think we had a logisim event in Malaysia last year, and we had the port operators from Malaysia were on a panel together. And while they may well compete against each other, they see their primary competition as Singapore. So there is intense competition, I think, between the different port operators around Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia to improve their capabilities. And as a region, I think that's outstanding. Certainly, I think that Singapore has positioned itself very nicely to be a hub for different industries, you know, in a way that allows industries to put them, their inventories, their final inventories, closer to consumers and patients and those sorts of things. So they are using their geographical location effectively, but also putting the infrastructure behind it.
- [46:13]
C
You know, I think with the ports, that old phrase coopetition applies there more so maybe than so many other aspects of our industry, because the ports do compete kind of to your Point. Right. And there's a fierce competition. However, there's a lot of cooperation, especially landing really complex big volume and special deals. So it's interesting to see how that. That coopetition pushes innovation and advancement and new opportunities. Okay, we're gonna. We're gonna finish on a fast and furious finish. We're coming down the home stretch, and I got a couple quick hitters I want to. I want to get both y' all to comment on. The first one is I love, and I hope I'm interpreting this right, because I love reverse logistics and returns management. It's one of my favorite topics. We've been talking about and interviewing people for years. And as Tony Schroeder has always called it, it's really. He calls it the dark side of industry. Right. He's always called it that. It's largely invisible. Folks don't want to talk about it. But more and more industry is. And we're seeing technology and innovation come into the space. So, Ramon, tell us about this. I'm gonna call it. I'm gonna ask you about the Return Logistics Innovation Initiative. Tell us more.
- [47:24]
A
Okay. So the Society, we are the host organization for the Asia Pacific Reverse Logistics Innovation Alliance. And you're absolutely right, Scott. You know, reverse logistics is notoriously dark. Right. Companies struggle to track the provenance, condition, carbon footprint, so on and so forth. And E Commerce, as we all know, has made that even worse. That's multiplied it tenfold.
- [47:52]
C
Yep.
- [47:53]
A
So we formed alia. We're the host. It was broached by us by one of our board members, Wolfgang lamarca and Brett, myself and a few other members. And we've got some very interesting companies that have come aboard to be part of this initiative. And we are, over the next three or four weeks, going to be identifying shortlisting projects or initiatives that we want to look at. And one of the things is, you know, talking about AI, you know, you can use computer vision and machine learning at that point of return. You know, you can use it to grade product condition, determine the optimal return path, whether you want to repair it, resell, recycle, and then this can all be sped up using AI. Since we talked about AI earlier and you asked me what some of our interests, what my favorite was, but this is another one of those things. So, yep, a lot happening with ALIA or the APAC Reverse Logistics Innovation alliance. And watch this space for more news about it.
- [49:01]
C
We are. And you know what? We're going to talk after the show because I got a couple ideas and some connections. I Think that that might be of significant value to that wonderful initiative that y' all are driving. Love it. Okay, Brett, anything else to add to that before we talk about logisim programming?
- [49:17]
D
No, I think this is an area that I've been interested in for a long time and the industry that I've been involved with for such a long time had return rates of between 8 and 10%. And that's just on medication. So how we manage that more effectively, reduce waste as well as managing the ESG Question I think is, is really important. Three key areas that we're looking at are the regulatory aspects, the innovation opportunities, and also the operational aspects. It's in the early days and look forward to working on this further.
- [49:57]
C
So much opportunity in this space. And I applaud Yalls leadership because I know it takes time and organization and especially when you're talking about driving action. So well done there. All right, so Brett, I'm gonna start with you. When it comes to logisim programming, I know y' all do events year round. This, this initiative may be a great example of that. But y' all also have a big event coming up in May. Brett, tell us more.
- [50:23]
D
Yeah, we have in May, from the 12th to the 14th, we have Logisim APAC. And this is a multi tier event in the sense that we're covering a number of topics through those three days. We have tracks for planning and procurement, specific tracks for planning and procurement, for cold chain management, for three PL guidance and best practice. We have our five streams actually within the APAC conference itself or the APAC symposium itself, which is looking at digitalization, supply chain, risk management, intra logistics, ESG and also E commerce. So it's a pretty packed program. We'll also be looking at. We'll be running a number of roundtables through the event. An event that's looking specifically at shipping related issues with one of the big shipping services companies that's running with our shipping, our Shippers Council, also on the Global Logistics Emissions Council's program for capturing and measuring and reducing emissions in logistics. So that's also one of our roundtables. We're running a special roundtable on the initiative that we just talked about earlier. And I think that's probably about it for the.
- [52:01]
C
And you're gonna have a lot of fun too though, beyond the hard work roundtables, right?
- [52:06]
D
Yeah.
- [52:07]
A
Yeah.
- [52:07]
D
So we're running. The event is in conjunction with CMAT and also with Cargo now. So I talked about the symposium aspect of it, but there's also an exhibition which will be a range of intra logistics and end to end supply chain service providers and solutions as a part of that day. So it's a, a very large event. Will get probably somewhere between 6,7000 people walking through the event and then we have a fairly curated program. So the symposium itself will have probably 3, 350 attendees through the mainly senior levels of logistics and supply chain management.
- [52:49]
A
Just to end the check.
- [52:51]
C
Yes, please.
- [52:52]
A
Just to interject, talking about fun, we've also got our gala dinner that we have on day two. So that's 400 rowdy, loud logisticians in one room. Last year we finished up at 2am Another year we had a conga line going through the dinner and I pity the entertainment because the crowd, the audience makes so much noise that they just drown out the entertainers. So talking about fun, it should be
- [53:24]
C
great, you know, it will be. It sounds like it, y'. All, we all enjoy of course the adult beverages which is truly what keeps global supply chain moving forward that the humans do. Okay, well folks, you can learn more. Y' all correct me if I'm wrong here, but logisim.org and that is spelled L O G I as in logistics. Logistics Lodi S sim S Y M. So L S Y m dot org you can learn more about the great May event year round programming. I bet there's information on there for the reverse logistics initiative. Is that right? Ramon and Brett, okay, go get plugged in, become a member, attend the events. You're going to meet great people like Brett and Ramon that have a passion for changing how business gets done. All right, so. So as we start to wrap here, I gotta ask you both, quick hitter. We started this interview after the fun warm up to talking optimism and caution. I want to ask you both, starting with you, Ramon, what gives you. There's one thing, there's probably many. But what's one thing that gives you practical optimism for the future of global supply chain?
- [54:33]
A
The people in the industry like I meet great people every day, 99% of them, they want to do better, they want to learn more, they want to cooperate, they want to. You know, people who work in logistics are special. Generally. They're not academics, you know, they're not scientists, not doing R and D, curing cancer. They're just those quiet people that get stuff done.
- [54:57]
C
Yeah.
- [54:57]
A
And they get it done well. And they just want to do better. So that's. That gives me a lot of optimism. A great industry to be part of. And with the society and our 45,000 members, it's just fantastic.
- [55:11]
C
I'm with you. I'm with you 1000% there. Brett, same question. What gives you practical optimism for the path ahead?
- [55:19]
D
I think, you know, post pandemic supply chain or during the pandemic and post pandemic supply chain is on the front page and it's front and center in any discussions. And even when you go to Davos, you can hear world leaders talk about what's happening in supply chain. So I think that's a great evolution. And as Ramon said, I think the people aspect is super important. We still need to get jobs done. The resilience aspect that is now such a, a popular topic I think has always been a part of supply chain practitioners, logistics practitioners, DNA. And I just think it's fantastic now that we're giving, being given the opportunity to demonstrate just how effectively we can manage the situations that are being thrown at us. And that makes it fun. And I love being a part of the industry and a part of what happens every day.
- [56:22]
C
Same, same. But you know, for the powers that be, if you could throw a little less situations at us, we'll take that too. Right. All right, so the million dollar question, maybe the billion dollar question these inflationary times. Brett, how can folks connect with you, my friend?
- [56:37]
D
Probably LinkedIn is, is probably the best way. Yep.
- [56:42]
C
And folks got to check out the Logism magazine. Yes, great work there. Lots of perspectives. I really enjoy that. So folks, connect with Brett Marshall on LinkedIn and Raymon. How about you?
- [56:54]
A
Same thing. LinkedIn I think is best and I appreciate people reaching out and pointing out things that we're wrong about or having that conversation with us. It's fantastic. So feel free.
- [57:06]
C
Raymond, I appreciate that. And for all those out there that send me the linkedins and the texts and the emails about what I get wrong, hey, feedback is a blessing. It's is a blessing. So I'll keep it coming. Okay. All right. So what a great conversation. Again, I admire what you're all doing. I know you all have day jobs but gosh are driving so many powerful dialogues and conversations that are driving real action and a great sense of community. And I mean that in a very non cliche way. The fellowship and the relationships that you are helping to foment and grow is so important to global, really global everything. So I want to thank our wonderful guest here today, Dr. Raymond Christian again president of the Logistics and Supply Chain Management Society. Ramon, thanks for being here.
- [57:52]
A
Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.
- [57:55]
C
You bet. We'll have you back soon. Brett Marshall, editor in chief with Logisim Magazine Brett, thanks so much for being here.
- [58:02]
D
Fantastic. Thanks, Scott. Go Hawks.
- [58:04]
C
That's right, Go Hawks. We got to make the playoffs out and get past the playing round. We'll see. But Ramon and Brett are quite a one two punch folks. Make sure you connect with them and you know the homework we're going to share with each of y'.
- [58:15]
A
All.
- [58:16]
C
First off, Oprah SCN Global Fam enjoyed this great conversation as much as I have. I've got my 18 pages of notes here based on the great things that we learned here. But folks, you got homework because there's so much Raymond and Brett shared so many actual moments or opportunities or perspectives that you can take and do something with right deeds, not words. We know that's how real change happens. Good change happens. So with all that said, Scott Luden, challenging all of our listeners, hey, do good. Give forward. Be the change that's needed. And we'll see you next time right back here on Supply Chain Now.
- [58:48]
A
Thanks everybody.
- [58:50]
B
Join the Supply Chain now community. For more Supply chain perspectives, news and innovation, check out supplychain now.com subscribe to supply chain now on YouTube and follow and listen. Listen to Supply Chain Now. Wherever you get your podcasts.