D (2:36)

W. I am ready to rock. And I prepared. I'm not going to bury the lead, but I prepared by taking a very good cleanup exercise with some of the company, the featured company's products. So I was doing my homework this morning, cleaning up some stains out.

C (2:52)

Stell Wiley. That's good foreshadowing there. I want to introduce our guest speaker here today. Joining Me and Wiley, Rip McDonald is the retired chief supply chain officer for the Clorox Company, a 7.1 billion dollar global consumer packaged goods company. That's what Wiley was talking about, folks. Now, currently he advises supply chain tech founders and CEOs on strategy development, customer acquisition, focused messaging and great network introductions. Now, Rick has extensive experience leading through crisis, get this, including the COVID 19 pandemic, US hyper inflation, ludicrous inflation maybe, and a five month long cyber attack in 2023, all endured by Clorox. He sits on lots of esteem boards, has collected countless leadership awards and recognition over the years. Way too many lists here. But for today's conversation in particular, Rick's experience and insights in leading the digital transformation of the Clorox supply chain. Folks, they're going to be intriguing, so join me in welcoming great friend of the show, Rick McDonald. Hey. Hey Rick. How you doing today, Scott?

A (3:57)

I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me back. And Wiley, good to see you.

D (4:01)

Likewise.

C (4:02)

We know Rick, we always enjoy when you stop by. And I'll tell you what, to get you and Wiley together in one conversation, two of the most brilliant minds in global supply chain. At least according to me. I wish we had five hours, but we're going to jump right in and get started. So today, Rick and Wiley, of course, is St. Patrick's Day here. And there's big celebrations all around the place, right? All around the country and beyond. I'll ask you both. And Rick, I'm going to start with you. What has been one of your favorite St. Patrick's Day traditions or memories? Rick, Tell us more.

A (4:37)

Well, you know, Scott, I'm, I'm a bit of a foodie. And while St Patrick's Day and St Patrick are not necessarily known for food, I'm gonna go with the tradition of corned beef and cabbage and Guinness beer. I just, it's just a great combination. And we'll Be. We'll be enjoying some of that tonight.

C (4:54)

Oh, that, that sounds delicious. I know. I am starving for all of that, Rick, So add set one more plate at McDonald household and Wiley about for you. Tradition or memory for St. Patrick's Day. Your thoughts?

D (5:09)

It's a little unfair because St. Patrick's Day is now my wedding anniversary. So it was not intentional. It was just that, you know, my wife and I, we got married a few years ago and did, you know, courthouse wedding, and we didn't realize when we were doing it, we're like, oh, wait, we just got married on St. Patrick's Day. And so, yeah, now my. That is my St. Patrick's Day every year now.

C (5:30)

Well, and you know what? That better be your answer.

D (5:32)

Yes, exactly. That's my answer. I, I, you know, well, hey, that

C (5:37)

just means everybody else. A lot more folks celebrate with y'.

A (5:40)

All.

C (5:40)

And of course, y' all have a lot to celebrate with the new edition that came, I guess, last year, Wally, if I've got that right.

D (5:46)

That's right.

C (5:46)

All right, Wally and Rick, we got a great conversation teed up here today. And I want to do this, Rick, for folks that may have missed any of your keynotes, and I know you do a lot of speaking at events and, and supply chain shows, you name it. For folks that miss any of that, unpack your background a little bit. Let's start with, though, what might be a surprising answer. What got you into supply chain in the first place, Rick?

A (6:09)

Yeah, you know, it started fairly early, kind of in my teen years. There's a statistic that says one in eight Americans work for McDonald's. That was my first job. And, you know, I followed that up with working on an assembly line and a metal fabrication plant. And then after I graduated from Georgia Tech, I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do, but my first gig was at Frito Lay, and that, that really cemented my love for the supply chain and kind of carried on through to my time at Clorox as a. I guess I'll call it a passion. It was my job, but it was also my passion and my hobby at times. What I loved about it was sort of the immediacy of the feedback getting better from day to day, the people involved. You were doing something together as a team, and then you got to see the product that you made in some retail store near you. So I loved all that.

C (6:59)

Hmm. I do, too, Rick. I do, too. Not really. Quick, Wally. I'm gonna see if we fall into the statistics there. Rick mentioned one of eight works at McDonald's. I worked. My first job was Winn Dixie. I never worked at McDonald's. Wiley, did you ever work at McDonald's?

D (7:13)

I did not.

C (7:14)

Okay, let's see here. My rough math and Rick, your Georgia Tech math math, correct me, but we're one for three, so that's really close. No, no, no. That's better than the one. One of eight. We'll see. We'll see. Let me ask you this, Rick, because I want, I want to share some perspective around the Clorox Company's infrastructure and its footprint to give folks some context there because, you know, it's one of the most beloved companies in the world, but it's also, it's pretty sizable. Tell us, we're going to talk about your accomplishments there in just a second, but tell us a little about the supply chain organization at the Clorox company.

A (7:49)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, $7.1 billion global company consumer packaged goods, notable brands including, you know, Disinfecting Wipes and Pine Sol, Kingsford Charcoal, Fresh D, Cat Litter, Glad Trash Bags, Burt's Bees. Just a number of great products that we know and love here in the US and a bunch of brands outside the US the company had 9,000 people. 6,000 of them were in the supply chain working in one of the 35 manufacturing plants or 50 plus distribution centers, 140 something external manufacturers, contract manufacturers and products manufactured in 25 countries and sold in more than 100. So it was, it was just a great, a great remit. $4 billion underspend and just a lot of, a lot of terrific people, man.

C (8:36)

Okay, Wiley, really quick before we talk about accomplishments, he got me with Kingsford Charcoal. I used a bag of that last weekend and we had two, two grills going as we had some baby back ribs going on here in Georgia. Wiley, is that one of your favorite Clorox Company products?

D (8:51)

It is. Kingsford Charcoal has a special place in my heart and so does Burt's Bees. And now more recently, so do all the stain removing products. So it's all, I'm all of it. I'm a power user.

C (9:04)

So that goes back right to that new addition we were talking about. Good stuff, Wiley. Okay, but, but I also don't want to walk past 6,000 supply chain professionals at their Clorox company. You heard those other numbers from Rick. That is no small feat to get all the products we know and love and trust to our homes when we need it and when, when we expect it. And also. But Rick, to make all that happen. And we'd be here all day maybe talking about what you and the team were able to accomplish. What were some of your favorite moments, Rick?

A (9:36)

Yeah. Let me give you three things real quick. First of all, we were able to build a culture where safety was the most important thing that we did every single day. And we never talked about the numbers that much. It was always about the people who were operating safely and then those who, who were injured. But for those who are into OSHA recordable rate. We were running at an OSHA recordable rate of less than.05, which is pretty spectacular. And we're very proud of the culture that allowed that to, allowed that to exist. I'd say the second thing is around leadership development. We work at Georgia Tech, we built an executive education program, two weeks in residency, we graduated almost 500 Clorox leaders across all disciplines and functions during a seven year run with, with Georgia Tech. And then last but not least, Covid was remarkable for a lot of different reasons. But one of the things I'm most proud of is the way my team stuck together. And when I say my team, I'm Talking about all 6,000 people around the world. Lots of questions, not very many answers. It was just really a cauldron of uncertainty. And the leaders in the plants, our associates in the plants, they made it happen day after day after day. And we figured out a way to keep our people safe and healthy and keep our plants running.

C (10:47)

I love that. And while before I turn it over to you, there was one moment, Rick, that we talked about during the deepest throes of COVID where I think one of your supply chain team members were interviewed by a big outfit. And they, they beamed with pride. I'm not gonna get the exact quote right, but they relished getting up in the morning and going, you know, serving that noble mission, helping folks fight the pandemic. And that was a beautiful moment. So, Rick, good stuff there. Wiley culture, leadership development, and that, that stick, stick to itiveness, you know, sticking together as a team. Some of those themes is what we talked about in the previous episode of Enterprise Unleashed. But where are we going next with the one and only Rick McDonald?

D (11:30)

I have a suspicion that we're going to talk a lot about culture throughout this series, even though it's supposed to be a show about technology and, you know, in the Enterprise. So I'm really curious, Rick, as we kind of rewind the clock, let's say five years or so, maybe the end of the pandemic, so to speak, to now what do you think has really fundamentally changed in the supply chain organizations and especially as you said, the remit up to the leaders as a result of some of the technology changes, especially that you've seen over the years. But what's new, what's different, what's changed in the last five years? And how are you thinking about this as you're advising folks going forward?

A (12:10)

This is only an hour show, right?

D (12:12)

Yeah, yeah, I'll put you on the clock. There you go.

A (12:16)

Let me give you my top four and there are many others besides this, but I want to give you my top four thoughts around this. First of all, operational excellence is still very, very important, but what is taking the sort of the feature role now is predictive intelligence and being able to get out in front of things and understanding what is the data telling you. And to do that, there are all sorts of steps preceding that, including, you know, capturing the data, sorting and sifting it, gaining the insights, knowing what to do with those insights. That's number one. Number two is we go from episodic planning to more real time on demand, continuous planning, demand signal inventory plans, supply plans, those can all now be done in real time. And in order to keep up with the speed of the consumer, you got to be, you got to be moved in that direction. If you're not already there. I would say we're moving from experience driven decisions to data driven decisions. And not that data wasn't used before, but there was always sort of that secret sauce of somebody's intelligence or a problem they'd solved 10 years before that they could apply those learnings today. Still important, however, with so much more data available, the precision, the timeliness of those decisions can be accelerated. And then last but not least is the human side of things, managing teams. And the thing that I'm focused on right now with a lot of folks that I talk with is sort of this intersection of talent and technology. And you know, technology has been in play for some time now, but never like it is today and never evolving and advancing as quickly as it is today. And that's a, that's a real challenge for a lot of leaders.

C (13:54)

Wiley, your reaction to that?

D (13:57)

I'm so curious about the point you're talking about around the talent and technology. I don't, I feel like I don't hear enough people specifically hitting on this point. Are you talking about this more so in the aspect of reskilling, talent development, teaching, building process so that people can leverage these technologies? Are you thinking about it from a recruiting and personnel development where do you see this plugging in and the, you know, the symbiosis with advances in technology and the modernization of a workforce to better leverage it?

A (14:27)

Yeah, it's yes and yes and plus yes. It's everything from the digital fluency of the leaders to the recruiting profile. You got to be recruiting tomorrow's talent today and you can't do that with antiquated job descriptions and thinking and technology. It's the upskilling and reskilling of your associates. It's a change management. How do you get into this gear and how do you make it work for you? It's a very comprehensive talent. You know, when I say that one word, I'm really talking about all of it, all the way from leadership mindset and capability to associate skill set.

D (15:04)

Yeah, that's fascinating. I'm going to say I'm curious a lot in this conversation, so apologies in advance.

C (15:10)

He does, Rick. He says that a lot.

D (15:13)

So I'm curious about the point you're describing here, which is it's so deep into the associate level folks throughout every facet of the supply chain, all the way up to the senior most leaders. Where are you seeing the cultural impact of this, especially as you're talking about these pragmatic, practical daily workflows around making processing and planning more continuous. Are these things that are coming from top level organization team members? Is this stuff that's coming inside the organization? How are you finding that these new ideas are being circulated in the company? And how do you build a culture with an openness to try this when as you were talking about even at the beginning, safety, quality, things that are mission critical are also maybe sometimes at odds with letting an AI tool go in and do the thinking for people. How do you think about balancing that and where are you seeing all these ideas come from right now?

A (16:07)

Well, I mean the ideas are coming from lots of places and I think one of the challenges leaders have at the moment is how to sort and sift what to go after with their limited time, their limited resources, both people and financial. And that is one of the biggest challenges right now. And I chalk that up to digital fluency of leaders and our need to really kind of plus up our capability in this space. I'm not suggesting anybody needs to become a coder, but at the same point in time you gotta understand the technology, what problems it solves, what problems it doesn't, and leverage that in your organization. And these ideas are coming from every place, including the board saying to the CEO, we need AI. CEO turns to Somebody and says we need AI and then somebody runs and does AI and that may or may not be the solution that's necessary for that problem, and it may or may not be the most pressing problem that organization has to solve. So I find that there's a lot of confusion over this and that's leading to some false starts and some projects that are not delivering their ROI and some frustration and some headwinds.

D (17:09)

Yeah. Where are you seeing the. Especially as you're going and you're advising folks on, you know, on the leadership side, where are you going to look for that trusted counterpart in the market as you're trying to do the sifting and sorting of what's real, what's not real? Not asking you to put out an ad for anything, but more so just saying how are you thinking about getting calibrated when it feels like it's so hard to keep up right now with what is state of the art? Where are best practices being distilled from? This is something that I struggle with on a daily basis as we're running our own company. How are you thinking about this, especially with, you know, these very large, you know, multinational, the $7 billion footprint organizations, where are they going and turning to, for their insights around where to distill these best practices?

A (17:58)

Well, I think different companies are doing it different ways. And those that are more externally focused, you know, they're ending up at a variety of supply chain shows worldwide. They're listening to podcasts like Supply Chain Now. They're doing a lot of talking with individuals in their ecosphere, whether that's other chief supply chain officers in my case, or others in industry leveraging consultants. I subscribe to a number of daily emails, don't read them all, but from various groups. And I'll see a hot topic there. And I can, I can triangulate what I'm hearing from multiple sources, plus my experience of leading the transformation, the digital transformation of Clorox supply chain, and have a pretty good idea of where things are going and, and how it's being paced and where some of the pitfalls are in, in the progress.

C (18:43)

Yep. Hey, really quick, Wiley. I would just add to that the event thing that Rick mentioned. Whether it's Modex or Manifest or a Gartner or you name it, there's a slew of really quality supply chain programs and getting out, networking and gathering market intel. And you may not find what you're looking for at those events, but they usually put you on a path to connect the dots long after the event and While I would just add, and we had a little fun with what you. One of your refrains there that you're curious, but practical curiosity. I'm telling you, we've all probably know some leaders that really are truly, they wake up in the morning curious, but others are more kind of stuck in a status quo and they haven't really developed that really valuable and outcome producing curiosity. That's really, really important. But Wiley, I think you're going to ask Rick next we're going to talk about one of our favorite things and that's the beautiful human factor. Wiley, I think you were going to pose a question there where humans are still outperforming machines, huh?

D (19:44)

Yeah, that's what I was about to get to. So I think the thing that we've talked a lot about here is this need for this symbiosis. Where are you seeing organizations still turn to their team members to make judgments. And we talked about continuous planning. There's a lot of predictive insights and capabilities possible with large amounts of data and high quality data. Where are we still turning to high quality human beings time and time again?

A (20:09)

Yeah, this is a really interesting and fast evolving topic. And that is, you know, where do humans really out compete, outperform machine learning and all the various forms of artificial intelligence? And it's showing up in three places. One, where experience does matter, when some seat time really helps make a better decision. Number two is around sort of intuition. Machine learning is not super great with intuition. I think the third thing is where there's context required, whether it's around ethics or morality or integrity or maybe even, you know, some profit motive choices.

D (20:44)

Yeah.

A (20:45)

And there are probably three things that I would, I would highlight there. The first one is uncertain situations. I mean, take this, the situation we have right now with this geopolitical disruption and the hormone strait. Well, there's just not a lot of seat time for what to do when the Hormuz strait closes.

D (21:02)

Right.

A (21:03)

And so humans are going to be better adept at sorting through that. Now some of the baseline context and baseline data can be gathered machine learning, but the humans are going to have to play there. The second thing is, you know, anything around ethics and value based decision making. And the last one was around leadership and team motivation.

D (21:19)

Yeah.

A (21:20)

You know, nobody's running up to their laptop and asking chat GP to motivate them to do much of anything. And so the human beings involved have to, they have to inspire, they have to create, they have to drive that curiosity. They have to encourage the organization when times are tough and that is best done by a, by a person.

C (21:40)

Wally, before I move forward, because I'm going to go down this, this human factor string a little bit further, react to that. You know, here during March Madness. Right. We have March Madness about to kick off tonight or tomorrow. And as he was talking about some of those scenarios where humans certainly still have a unique superpower, I would argue to one of his points, you're not going to find AI coaches on the sidelines leading their teams into the March Madness, at least not this year. Who knows next year, who knows? But Wiley react to where he sees those human superpowers still alive and well and thriving.

D (22:16)

Yeah, it still comes down to leadership. Exactly what you're describing, Rick. I can't imagine a 6,000 person supply chain organization. What you're describing to Clorox Co. Waking up in the morning and feeling energized and ready to go out and help the world if they're being led through a daily brief by a machine that really is just calculating out the best way to do this. The passion that comes from people and the reasons they do what they do, I think are part of the, part of the purpose of all this. I think exactly what you're hitting on is really the thing that I spend a ton of time thinking about for our own organization and then our customers and people we partner with.

C (22:55)

Well said. But I want to go down a little further, Rick, and kind of build on what you and Wiley were talking about a minute ago. Because, you know, as y' all both have kind of mentioned maybe a couple times, one of the biggest challenges with AI isn't the technology. It's of course the people. It's how we adopt, how we adjust, how we tackle our fears. How do we get out of our uncomfort zone, how do we see how it makes our day easier, hopefully not harder. Right. We got to overcome a lot of that. And that's just to use like the basic AI stuff, much less some of the cool things we're we're headed towards in the coming days and weeks and months. I want to ask you, Rick, how do leaders help their team see AI as a tool that elevates them rather than threatens them?

A (23:39)

Yeah, it's a really great question, Scott. And of course, you know, there are multiple studies that say as much as half of people involved in roles in companies are fearful that AI is going to take their job. So this is a very real thing. It starts with something I mentioned before. That's the leader's digital fluency. If you're going to install some technology, you got to be able to explain it, you got to be able to understand, you got to be able to make it real for people who are not as familiar. And that includes positioning AI as something that is decision support, not decision replacement. I think that's a really important thing is decision support. The second thing is everybody always wants to know right after that, after you tell them the what it's, the well what's in it for me? And that is the place where you've got to be as transparent as you can as soon as you can about the impact on the individuals that will be working with, or maybe not working with this new technology. The what's in it for me, the third thing is investing in upskilling and reskilling. Always valuable, but I think never more than now. And by the way, with people going to work for multiple companies over their careers and are projected to be that way for the coming future, that makes them a more valuable employee no matter where they go. And the last thing is change management. And this is so underappreciated and underinvested. It is one of the key reasons why a lot of these digital initiatives are not going well and they're not delivering the desired results. You know, we think we know what change management is until we actually do some study and some work in that space. Then we find out how much we don't know. So that's, that's the fourth thing I'd say about this.

C (25:14)

Outstanding. I'm gonna, I'm gonna pose a follow up question to Rick and then Wiley. I'm get your comments on what he shared here because you touched on change management.

E (25:24)

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C (25:59)

and Rick and Wiley. We've seen all sorts of change management in our journeys. We talked about it pre show post show over that delicious adult beverages Rick was talking about earlier. What does good change management look like? Rick?

A (26:14)

Well, you know, first of all it's recognizing that and you know, this is a, this is a little bit of a tired phrase but you know, change is not natural for human beings. But more than that, as a Leader, you're trying to manage the chaos that this change is going to create, especially transformative change. And so the preparation of your people is key. That positioning. What is it? What are you doing? Why are you doing it? What are the outcomes that's going to drive? What's the best way for them to engage and acknowledging the things that they're going to feel. They're going to feel concerned, some angst, some people will feel excitement, but a lot of them are going to be more on the less optimistic side of the change curves. That's number one. Number two is you've got to identify your cohorts. This was something that we didn't do a great job in the first digital implementation of Clorox, when we put in a Gartner top right box planning tool. And we thought we'd done some really great change management. We hadn't. And what we hadn't done was identify the at least three groups of people at our organization. On this end, you've got the, the folks who are. They're just loving it. They can't wait to get going. They are your early adopters, and you have to celebrate them and load them up with resources so they can go and kind of show the way into the, into the new cave. On the other end, you got folks who you have to coach up or coach out. They, they are not going to get there unless there's some intense coaching. And if they can't get there, they need to go work for somebody else. And in the middle, you got a whole group of people who are kind of waiting and see some optimistically, some pessimistically. So you gotta, you gotta sort that out and then deliver messages to each of those groups that are tailored for them. And then the last thing I'd say is leaders have to walk the talk. You cannot put a planning system in, like a catechue or something like, and then show up with your favorite pivot table that just doesn't work. And people pick that up very, very quickly. If leaders are not either digitally fluid, adept at the capability, explaining it well, or don't walk the talk once it's implemented.

C (28:09)

Yep. Oh, man. We kind of a whole series on your last response, Wiley. Before I pose one more question to Rick, before I pass baton to you, react to what we just heard on those last two questions and responses from Rick.

D (28:23)

Man, the first thing is, you stole all my great thoughts here, Rick. I have nothing left to say. I'm speechless. No, the point, I think that's so key that you're making is that it seems more important than ever that leaders are leading the way instead of just doing the things that they've done before. And it's what you talked about, these periods of transformative change that the leaders have to be the tip of the spear and guiding the organization through that. We see that a ton right now. And I think it's just been really, really impressive to see how these really massive companies are actually a lot of them are becoming the early adopters themselves, the leaders inside of these companies. 100 and that's just been really exciting to me to see that.

C (29:04)

Yeah, well said Wiley. And folks, the Fearless Front Line is that yellow book that sits over my left shoulder and that's written by Ray Atia, one of my favorite folks I worked with in my entire career. And one of his overpowering mantras through his whole career was that an overwhelming majority of folks that show up at the office or the factory, wherever, each and every day, they want to be very successful. And it goes back to what Rick was talking about, right? Kind of. Those that don't, the very few that don't. Right. We got to come up with a different plan for but man, folks want to be successful, they want to contribute. And I would argue that the majority of folks, even in this, these crazy times right now, they really are willing to learn technology. It just takes, it takes hands on effective leadership that can help them bridge those knowledge gaps. That's for all of us, including myself for sure.

A (29:58)

Scott, just one, one quick interjection there. You know, this, this whole thing and it may go back to what Wiley asked sort of earlier on, like, where does all this come from? One of the things that leading companies are doing is they are making this one of their strategic planks in their five year plan. They are not just sort of hoping and guessing, it is in their strategic plan. And honestly, if it's, and the leaders are committed to that, and if it's not, what you have there is just what's called a really expensive hobby. You're going to be dabbling in technology and that will not play out well at all for organizations who don't put it in their plan, commit to it and then figure out how to drive the roadmap.

C (30:36)

Well said, Rick. All right, one quick Wiley, I'm stealing your thunder. I'm trying not to, I promise you. But really quick. Rick, the skills for the next generation supply chain professionals in an AI enabled, in an AI empowered world. What's your short list there?

A (30:52)

Well, you know, not only do you have to Be an operational expert, a leader development, a strategy person, a coach, enterprise thinker. But you've also got to now be a lot better with your data and analytics literacy. So modern supply chains and all the IoT devices are just generating a ton of data and it's real time. And so what are you going to do to capture that and sort and sift it and have the right prompts and ask the right questions so you can interpret those insights? That's number one, data and analytics literacy. The second one, and I've said this a couple times, is digital fluency. This is just, it's a non negotiable and if you're not there, you got to get there and you got to get there quickly. And the last one is the end to end orchestration aspect, including me. A lot of us were very focused on excellence in each supply chain sub function and the ability to orchestrate across the supply chain was not nearly as great as it is now. And if you're going to operate at the speed of the consumer, you've got to be into orchestration across the entire supply chain.

C (31:55)

Well said, Rick. Digital fluency, folks, if you take anything away from this conversation, you better take that one. Especially if you're charged with leading people that again, want to learn, want to accomplish, want to contribute. Wiley, I think next we're going to one of the most important sessions of the whole conversation. Right? Stall versus scale. Where are we going with Rick?

D (32:16)

Yeah, so something we talked a lot about in previous discussions is why do some of these pilots turn into massively impactful, successful programs and why do some of them stall out? And I think something that you talked about, Rick, that I thought was so interesting is around change management. We hear this all the time. I see this from a first person point of view very regularly. Being able to build that case study inside of the organization. What are some things that you've seen as very successful and then also some red flags and warning signals when pilots aren't going well or when programs might not be going the right direction. How do you see organizations set these up for success and sometimes for failure?

A (32:58)

Yeah, we've touched on a few things in this space previously, but let me hit on a couple of new ones. There's the lead from the front and what I mentioned just a minute ago was having this digital agenda, this transformation agenda, insisting from the top down that this is the direction we're going. This is not the time to have over collaboration or kind of group think on this. So it's leading from the front the second thing is the technology has to solve the problems you have. And all of our inboxes and every conference we go to, there are a million solutions. But you may not have those problems. And by the way, the technology that's being proposed may not solve your problem. And so that's where the digital fluency comes back into being able to match problem with solution and then, you know, get to change management. Maybe I should have started with that, but that's arguably way more important than the technology itself. And it is so underinvested. And organizations have, as they have streamlined themselves, many of them have taken out any kind of change management capability whatsoever. And it's going to have to be part of this digital transformation for any company to be successful. And I think the red flags are when you are not clear on what your business case is or not, you're on the problem you're trying to solve. You need to pick things early on, especially as you're trying to build credibility and trust in your own organization. Pick something that's going to be a winner. And there are lots of them. There are lots of them. Whether it's, you know, really heavy keyboard, lots of data, lots of repetitive tasks, lots of repetitive decisions, those are ideal candidates for early adoption. There are a number of places where you could just deliver a better roi, whether it's warehouse orchestration. I know you've had Keith Moore and Auto Schedule on before Scott or Ketech with Mike Landry of the demand supply planning space. Pick something that works and you know is going to solve your problem. And I think those are the real, the real red flags. When you see that that hasn't happened, you know, it's not going to go well. Hmm.

D (34:56)

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. The thing that I, I have kind of considered from what you're describing, and it maps super well to stuff that I've heard similar advice in the past is when you have this really cool enabling technology and it's this awesome hammer and you go around as an organization and start looking for nails. So, you know, wave the red flag. All right, guys, you know, let's take a step back and be like, what are we trying to actually accomplish here? What hurts inside of the company? What do we want to improve? Let's work backwards from the world we want to build towards and not the fun, new, cool tools in our hands.

A (35:27)

Yeah, that's it. You know, I, I've been on stage a lot, as Scott noted over the past year and a half, and by far and away the most asked for talk is the mindset, skill set, tool set and change management of digital transformations. And invariably when I ask audiences about halfway through, what do they think of when they think about digital transformations and they get them yellowed out almost every single time, somebody will name a piece of technology, they'll name some software, they'll name some gear, they will not talk about the leadership mindset, they will not talk about the upskilling, the reskilling and the change management necessary. And it's really difficult when you get overly focused with that new shiny thing you bought. And by the way, when you buy that and you put it into play and you don't do those other things, you will not get anywhere near the value that you thought you were going to get.

D (36:17)

Yeah, yeah. The way I describe this a lot to the partners that we work with is that we're going into an expedition into the jungle, and it doesn't matter how great this new machete you have is, you're still going into the jungle and you have to have the courage and the team set up so that they're ready to go through that almost reformation inside of their own organization.

C (36:38)

That's right.

D (36:39)

Lovely.

C (36:40)

Well said. Hey, really quick, as we continue down this path, I think you're going to be asking Rick about how AI changes the CSCO role. But really quick, I wonder. I'm doing a test this year. I got AI driven brackets and I've got human driven brackets. I've got a hundred of each. So we're gonna see where all the performance goes in the breakdown. Who knows, next year I might be making, letting AI handle all those, those top notch critical conversations and decisions. We'll see. While you think who's gonna win out?

D (37:11)

I don't know. Computers are really good at low probability things like the bracket. But this might be one of those things from an intuition standpoint where, you know, it could be what Rick said, I'm not sure. We'll see. But the. Yeah, the question I think kind of where I want to close off some of this discussion from our side is we talked a lot about the organization and you mentioned a couple pieces around digital fluency for the leaders introspecting a little bit more. What are the leaders for this next decade and the coming decades on the supply chain management side and, you know, chief supply chain officers, what are they going to need to look for in themselves and where are they going to have to grow to lead these large companies through these next. What likely will be very turbulent times where we have extremely large amounts of change in the world. What are they going to have to be thinking about for themselves?

A (37:59)

Yeah, let me start with this one. And this might be a little bit controversial for my friends in it, but the chief supply chain officer's got to own the supply chain digital strategy. They've got to own the inventory of the problems they need to solve. They got to own the inventory of understanding the potential solutions. And this is, and I repeat, this is not your CIO or CTO's activity. It's, in my opinion, it's your responsibility as a supply chain leader to understand all that, your strategy, your technology and the problems that will solve. And if you're like me, you might have to wrestle this away from your cio. But we ended up in a very good place with a very good relationship going arm in arm down this digital transfer transformation path. But that's number one, you gotta own your digital supply chain strategy. Number two is it's going from, as I mentioned a minute ago, from this sub functional management kind of sub function at a time to overall orchestration, finding tools that help you get that end to end visibility, that end to end speed, that ability to gather those insights and respond and react to them quickly. Artificial intelligence, intelligence, decision making. And this comes with sort of the advertisement of trust but verify. I think we've all got to be in that mode because AI does lie, but at the same point in time, it is so far superior on so many things in terms of capturing that data and making decisions within the constraints that you set, especially as we get into agentic AI.

D (39:30)

Yeah.

A (39:31)

And then the last thing I'd say about this is kind of that again, back to the intersection of talent and technology. You can't do this without your people and you shouldn't do this without your people. And so that bringing those things together, whether you redesign the organization, you're thinking about different workflows, you've got an org chart that's got agents, managing agents. What does that look like in the new, as we go forward here, that those are going to be the four things I think chief supply chain officers will have to adjust to.

C (39:58)

Yeah, Wiley, you want to react to that. That's quite a four, four item list there.

D (40:03)

The first one especially, I think is really radical. Not to say that I, I completely agree, I don't, I, I don't disagree with that even slightly. But it is, I think a pretty radical point of view that people in industry maybe don't share as much. And the thing that you're describing around that the supply chain officers and people who run those functions need to have control over their own IT destiny. Because the information model of the supply chain, it's downstream of the real world thing. As opposed to going the other direction and saying, how do we take this information model that we have and make it work for what our company does and what our business and our supply chain do, we actually need to go the other direction. Say, here is how the real world works. How do we build a strategy from an IT point of view around what that company is? And I think that is such a fundamental inversion. It feels like that's actually a pretty big departure from a way a lot of companies have structured their organizations lately. So that. I'm so enthused to hear you say that.

C (41:00)

Yeah, I am too.

A (41:01)

Well, I appreciate that. And just one comment to add onto that, for me, the eye opener was sort of circa 2017, 18, when I was talking to my friends at it and this is, listen, you cannot do this without them. So this is not an us and them thing. This is a we. But I was talking to them about technology that would solve our demand planning issues at Clorox, and I got all sorts of replies that didn't really reflect the problems I needed to solve and the solutions that we're going to solve those problems. And I think it's unfair to expect them to be expert in all the technologies across the functions of an enterprise, whether it's marketing or sales or R and D or supply chain.

D (41:40)

Right.

A (41:41)

Supply chain folks need to own that. They need to own that for themselves and craft those capabilities so that they best solve those problems and then leverage your IT organization. For all their great skills in technology and connectors in resources and cost in cyber, there's plenty for them to do. And when you bring those two things together, it turns out to be a pretty powerful combination.

C (42:04)

Yeah, well said, Rick and Wiley. Okay, we're gonna Fast and furious finish. All right, so let's see here. Rick, I've got two final questions and you've been speaking to the first one, I think, throughout. I'm asking anyway because, you know, I love closing with some action oriented advice. So when you think of what some of your final advice would be for operators out there that are either starting or leading AI Transformations Day, what would that be? Rick?

A (42:34)

Yeah, this recaps a lot of Scott, what you and Wiley and I have been talking about. The first one is that digital influence, digital fluency thing. There's no replacement for your knowledge, your curiosity, your adventurousness, your understanding of the technology, the tools and the problems you have to solve, the second one is around. This must be done with the people in your organization and it's up to you to upskill them, reskill them, train them, coach them, set the technology up in the right way so they see it as decision or support versus decision replacement. And then last but not least is the change management topic. And we really all have to become expert at this. This is not an HR thing solely. It can certainly be facilitated by that group or maybe others if you have an organizational change management group. But change management is something so powerful in all these transformations, especially when you're making big pivots like we've been talking about today.

C (43:26)

Yes, Rick, man, I'd sign up for an extra hour or three easily. This has been good stuff. Between you and Wiley, of course. And Wiley, I got some tough questions for you because Rick is really, in less than an hour shared some really been there, done that actionable perspective with all of us here today. What's been a couple of your key takeaways?

D (43:48)

Wally it is, it's really interesting because the scale of some of the companies that I spend a lot of time with are orders of magnitude smaller than Clorox Co. And a lot of the companies that Rick spends time around. But the problems are exactly the same. And I think a lot of that tells me that as, you know, kind of as a global supply chain community, we're kind of all in this together right now, figuring this out. And in some senses it's a little scary. But that also feels pretty nice to know that it's a bit of a brave new world and there's a lot of really massive opportunity for us to figure this out together as a collective around how do we go and transform our organizations, how do we eliminate waste, how do we improve the end experience for our end consumers? And it's what Brooke said. How do we move as fast as the consumer, which they're moving pretty fast nowadays. So every single aspect of this is just really exciting because as a global cohort, we're kind of all figuring this out.

C (44:47)

We are. Sometimes it feels like it's week by week. Sometimes it feels like it's minute by minute.

D (44:53)

Yes.

C (44:53)

But that's okay. We're going to figure it out. We're supply global supply chain is a incredibly bright, innovative and resilient subset of the human population, human society. So I got lots of faith. Hey, really quick, Rick, I'm going to ask you in a second how folks can connect actually with you. And while we got some, some cool dos news to share, but I found this this morning I went rummaging through a box in my basement. I came across a couple of tools that used that I used over 20 years ago when I moved to Atlanta. And I think it illustrates a couple things here. One was this Magellan I just took off the thing that plugged into my car that got me through along with my handy dandy map, got me through all Atlanta traffic and beyond. And I use it religiously along with maybe MapQuest printouts if y' all remember those directions. Oh yeah, that worked, right? That worked. 20 years, 20 plus years ago it worked. But goodness gracious, there is such a better way that most of us watching or listening to this conversation already know. Some folks won't even know what I'm talking about when I say a GPS device or Magellan. And that really illustrates, I think, a really important point. Not just this conversation, Wiley, but the series were, you know, we're conducting in conjunction with you. There's a better way. There is such a better way. And it kind of goes to a core point Rick made. But we got to choose the right technology that is tackling the problems and delivering the success. That is that's our organizations are targeting, not just looking to the left and the right grass is greener. Hey, let me do what they're doing. May not be a good fit. Gotta be targeted. Gotta be targeted. Rick and Wiley, outstanding conversation. Rick, then don't go anywhere. Wy we're get the DOS update here in a second. Rick, how can folks connect with you, bring you in keynotes, all the great things you do? Rick, how can folks connect with you?

A (46:43)

Yeah, thanks for that, Scott. If there's interest in keynotes or panel conversations or fireside chats, you can hit me up@rickmcdonaldt.net or also on LinkedIn. And then if you're in the Atlanta area on April 2, I am moderating a panel on behalf of Georgia Tech's Scheller College of Business. And the topic is the intersection of talent and technology. And we'll have three great panelists. It's going to be an evening session with a reception after it down on the Georgia Tech campus. So I love to see you if you're in town.

C (47:13)

Outstanding. You know, Rick, we got Wiley doesn't like leaving that beautiful California weather, but we got to bring him to Atlanta.

A (47:20)

Yes, sir.

C (47:21)

And illuminate a lot of our organizations around here. We're make that happen. But Rick, good stuff. Don't go anywhere just yet. Wiley. I got a bunch of things going on. And I want to share a couple of things from the DOS organization that's on the move. And this isn't a very fair question, but if you had to pick one thing that you're most excited about when it comes to you and the DOS team, what would that be?

A (47:43)

Wiley?

D (47:45)

Yeah, it's what Rick said is every day, every week, I get to pick my head up. And inside of our company, we're doing fun and exciting things. But even outside the company, there's ideas to integrate in and there's these periods of transformative change and we're just fortunate enough to be here working on a lot of really fun, hard problems inside of the supply chain on that front on a daily basis. So bigger opportunities, larger organizations to work with, bigger impact, more team members. Every single facet of it is high and to the right.

C (48:16)

That is outstanding, folks. If you can't tell. Rick and Wiley love what they do and they're really good at it. So I'd invite you to connect with them on LinkedIn. We're dropping some links. Y' all gotta connect, keep the conversation going. And by the way, Wiley mentioned they're expanding left and right. I love these Polaroids I'm watching. I'm creeping on y'.

D (48:33)

All.

C (48:34)

Wiley on across your socials at dos. I love how you welcome each team member with a Polaroid with million watt smiles. And folks, they're hiring extensively. Go to dos.com and while you're there, I bet Wiley invites you to book a demo, right? Don't just take Wiley's word for it. I'm sure he wants you to put him to the test. See if you're, if they are a good fit for what you're trying to accomplish. And then one more thing, W, because the series continues, you know, Rick McDonald, as he always does, sets the bar, right? He sets the bar. But we do have a great industry Leader Joining us April 7th as Zubin Apu CEO with WiseTech Global is joining us. That would be a great conversation and we welcome you all to join us for that. All right, so again, we're dropping, we're trying to make it really easy, folks. We have dropped Rick's LinkedIn. We have dropped more information, not DOS. You can go to our landing page. You can see all the previous conversations we've had with Wiley and many, many others. And we've also dropped the April 7th event right there. We're going to make it really easy, folks. And we got some other helpful resources right there in the chat. Rick and Wiley, this has been an outstanding conversation. Really quick. We know how to connect with Rick Wiley. How can folks connect with you?

D (49:56)

Just come and find us on LinkedIn at DOS on LinkedIn and you can connect with me on LinkedIn as well. Just Wiley Jones, I think there aren't that many of us, fortunately, outstanding.

C (50:06)

And by the way, protect, protect the ip. There's a whole different story there. While we're gonna have to have you back on. Oh yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna. That's a fascinating story, folks. You have to find Wiley Jones on LinkedIn to learn more about that. All right, so folks, what a great conversation. I want to thank Rick McDonald, the one and only, once again industry dynamo, advisor to leading companies and more. Rick, thanks so much for being here.

A (50:28)

Scott, my pleasure. I appreciate having you back again and while a fun conversation, thank you for that.

D (50:32)

Likewise. Thanks, Rick.

C (50:33)

It has been W. Jones. Thank you. And the DOS team. Love this Enterprise Unleashed series and this conversation and garruth last month. Man, I can't wait to what's next. I really appreciate you being here, of course.

D (50:46)

Thanks, Scott.

C (50:48)

Amanda, Tricia, behind the scenes, really thanks so much to all of our global audience. You're our North Star. Come join us on April 7th. But whatever you do, here's the homework. Because Rick and Wiley, they backed up the truck and delivered lots of options. Take one thing you heard here today from Rick McDonald or Wally Jones and do something with it, right? Share it with a team, share it with your boss, share it with your Aunt Sally up in Iowa. I don't care as long as you do something with it. Because it's all about deeds, not words. I said we'll continue to drive transformation for our people in our industry. And with all that said, Scott Luton here on behalf of Supply Chain now, challenging you. Do good, give forward, be the change that's needed. And we'll see you next time right back here on Enterprise Unleashed. On Supply Chain now. Thanks everybody.

B (51:34)

Join the Supply Chain now community. For more Supply Chain perspectives, news and innovation, check out supply chain now.com subscribe to Supply Chain now on YouTube and follow and listen to Supply Chain Now. Wherever you get your podcasts.