C (3:04)

So great to have you back with us. And you have brought quite a compadre here. I want to introduce our second guest. Now this, this is going to be. Hey that we're making firsts in the supply chain now ecosystem. I'll tell you how. Just a second, folks. Our second guest is also an associate professor of supply chain management in that Walton College of Business at the University of Arkansas. He serves as chair of the Undergraduate Programs and Assessment Committee. He also serves as co editor in charge designate for the Journal of Business Logistics. How about that? He has held tons of positions out in the industry with organizations such as Michelin, IBM and Lowe's. He also enjoys, man, what a household. He also enjoys a variety of research projects especially focused on retailing and supply chain management. I want to welcome in Dr. Rod Thomas. Hey. Hey, Rod. How you doing?

B (3:57)

I'm, I'm happy to be here, man. I got to keep Stephanie straight, so thanks for having us on.

C (4:02)

You know what my hunch is that's a two way street between the two of y'.

B (4:06)

All.

A (4:06)

Absolutely.

C (4:07)

So for our audience out there, if you can't already tell, we got a great conversation in store. But for the first time in supply chain, our history, we have a married a couple supply chain dynamos here on the same show. So, Stephanie, Rod, we're breaking records. We are breaking records.

A (4:25)

Thanks for letting us help you out with that, Scott. I know that was a record you've been trying to crush.

C (4:30)

Hey, the phone goodness is calling me here in a second. We're going to be getting into the Brooklyn world records. But hey, let's do this. You all know I like to start with a little fun warm up question. And Stephanie, since you've been with us a couple of times and had some wonderful conversations with you, your daughter, other students, I'm going to start with Rod and Rod, when you're not. I mean, you and Stephanie both keep big plates, full plates in supply chain. But when you got a little time to yourself, what's one of your hobbies that you're really passionate about?

B (5:00)

Well, that answer has changed a lot in the last week.

C (5:03)

Okay.

B (5:04)

As of last Friday night, we've been empty nesters. Now, the kids moved on to college. We adopted two absolutely gorgeous little kittens. Really, they are three months old. They are ornery, they are into everything. They are tearing up furniture and I don't care. They're stinking up the joint and I don't care. They are so cute that they have my complete, undivided attention. I already told Stephanie. She's replaced. My children have been disinherited. So for the first time in our 25 years of marriage, we now have pets.

C (5:37)

Okay, first time. Okay, so what are their names? I gotta ask Rod.

B (5:40)

We got Smokey and Sui.

C (5:43)

Okay.

B (5:43)

And they're both gray.

C (5:45)

Yeah.

B (5:45)

Smokey for Tennessee. We are tried and true.

C (5:49)

Balls.

B (5:49)

We can't get it out of our system.

C (5:51)

Yeah.

B (5:51)

And then our kids wanted the other one to be Suey because they're hogs now. So.

C (5:56)

Hey, I love it. Smokey and Sui. If you're tuned in, folks, looking forward to learning more about the hijinks there at a Thomas household. All right, so, Stephanie, I'm going to ask you the same question. I was trying to think through some of the, you know, the personal side of things we've learned about you, and I'm not sure if we've ever talked about any of your, you know, true hobbies. What are you doing your little bit of your spare time.

A (6:17)

So one of the things I love about living in northwest Arkansas is it is a beautiful place to spend time outdoors. And so one of the things when I have a little extra time, I mean, I'm a sucker for a good mystery or binge in a Netflix show or something like that, but I love to spend time hiking in and enjoying the beautiful scenery and outdoors that we have here in northwest Arkansas.

C (6:39)

That just sounds beautiful. It sounds beautiful. And I hope to see. I hope to visit you all both in Arkansas in the fall, maybe, but is there a park or a. A mountain or a lake or something that's, like, one of your favorites, Stephanie?

A (6:54)

So the one that's closest that we visit is called Tanyard Creek, and it's a fun park area. But then a little bit south of Fayetteville, there's Devil's Den State park, and that's when we've got a little more time. That's the one that we visit most frequently.

C (7:08)

Okay. They both sound lovely. We'll get pictures when we're there. Perhaps. But Stephanie and Rod, really grateful to have y' all both here. And I can't wait to dive in and learn from you both over the next hour or so. So let's do this. You know, my introduction to both of y' all didn't do it justice. I mean, we'd be here. Y' all have done a lot of stuff in the industry. Could be a phone book each. So I kind of want to add a little more context. To the conversation, especially for our audience. So I want to ask Stephanie, I'll stick with you here. When you think about one earlier in your career, one of your most impactful leadership roles that really shaped how you view global supply chain, what comes to mind?

A (7:49)

That's a great question, Scott. And, you know, I'm even going to go back further than, say, a leadership role. I think one of the most impactful roles for me started as an intern, which is kind of ironic, you know, given that I'm a professor and work with students and try to help them secure internships. But I spent a summer in Concord, North Carolina, in a distribution center for Stanley Tools. And this was during my master's program. And I was, you know, focusing on, we called it logistics and transportation then rather than supply chain management, because we weren't, weren't that sophisticated yet. But that was where I, you know, being in the operating environment and really seeing how the pieces all fit together, the connectivity, there's something about being on a plant floor or in a distribution center and seeing the flow and how things move, and then, you know, going into a retail store and seeing the products that you just put on a truck out on the shelf, that really starts to connect it together. I think that's really where I started to fall in love with the problem solving, the pace, the, the never. Every day is going to be different. And then when I went back and finished my coursework, I was really able to kind of go, okay, now I see how these all pieces all fit together. And so I think that's what kind of like instilled the love that I took with me through the rest of my career.

C (9:08)

Stephanie, what an outstanding answer. And to our, all of our audience members out there, no matter where you are in your journey, if you're a senior leader, if you're just getting started, get out into the plants and the sites, talk with the front line. They're the experts. And secondly, when you do, like Stephanie was saying, identifying the flow and kind of walking the flow is critical. And once you kind of map out that flow a couple times in a facility, you'll start to kind of intuitively kind of see it wherever else you go. All right, Stephanie, that is a million dollar advice. Rod, or should I say the father of Smokey and Sui? What is an earlier leadership position or any position that really shaped your worldview?

B (9:49)

I'll give you the two million dollar answer. If she gave you one, I'm gonna give you two. My first role at Lowe's, I was a logistics specialist. So I was doing a lot of different things. And what was so neat about that was it was a boundary spanner role. I had to do core logistics, things like manage inventory, calculate how it landed, cost, what's the best way to move things through our network. But I also had to work with suppliers and people in their plant and their distribution network. I had to work with transportation carriers. I had to work with our merchants, the buyers within our organization, our store operations. And that really molded me as you're working with all those different pieces of seeing how everything fits together, that a supply chain is a living, breathing system. And the other cool thing about that, you learned very early on, I had accountability for a lot of things and a lot of interfaces with absolutely no authority. I had no juice, but I still had to get things done. So you had to learn how to influence and make things happen and call it negotiation, backdoor deal. I bought a lot of people beers on the side, you know, but we had to figure out a way to communicate, collaborate and coordinate. And that's the foundation of good supply chains, in my opinion.

C (11:01)

So you shared a lot there. I'll pick up on your last point there because human relationship economics is kind of what I'm hearing you talk about there, where even though you don't, you don't have a, a formal decision making like CEO or anything, you're able to influence how problems get solved and how processes move forward and at the end of the day, how we delight our customers. So having that early in your career, I can only imagine how helpful that was, the dividends that paid off later in your career. And then you talked about math. So folks, you know, I'm talking to my son, my son Ben, and he is not a big fan of math. I've tried to instill in him the importance of how we use math, especially in supply chain the rest of your life. But that is such a, you know, total ended cost, some of the fundamentals. Right. And being able to not just do the math, which I'm kind of kidding with that, but to your point, Rod, talk the language with our suppliers and the ecosystem. So we're on the same page as we're trying to solve problems, right?

B (12:02)

H. Absolutely. It takes both. It takes the hard skills, the math, the problem solving, the process expertise and the soft skills. There's a people side to it. It's those interlinkages between different groups, those relationships that matter.

C (12:16)

That's right. And Stephanie, on that point, before I move forward in the modern day global supply chain, the ecosystem that we're talking about and Rod's talking about isn't all there in Concord, North Carolina. It, it wraps across countries and wrapped across beautiful cultures and languages. And so that skill set, the softer skill set that talking about, we've got to be able to bridge all those divides globally. Is that right?

A (12:40)

Oh, absolutely. It. And funny Rod's talking the because we both do the hard skill, soft skill, all that. But the definition of supply chain that I teach my students in class starts with the art and science of doing all the things in, in the supply chain. And to me that's emphasizing the technical, analytical side of it. But it is that creative out of the box decision making, problem solving, collaborating, bringing all those things together so you can be an individual with different strengths in different areas and still find a place in supply chain to be successful, whether you're more hard skilled or soft skilled or a great mix of both.

C (13:17)

We need all of it. We need all of it. And for you artists out there, we need artists and creative types in global supply chain. So don't think otherwise. Folks, at the start of this conversation, you're starting to see between Dr. Thomas and Dr. Thomas and their perspective and what then their passion. Why University of Arkansas is the Gartner number one ranked school for supply chain management programs and you're seeing it. Well, speaking of, I wish, I wish that was the hardest, hardest topics we were going to be talking about today. But tariffs, tariffs, tariffs, goodness gracious, you can't have, you know, a couple years ago you couldn't have a conversation without saying blockchain. And then the last couple years you couldn't have one without saying AI. Well, right now, at least for the next few weeks, next few months, who knows, it's tariffs, right? Trade policies. So there's no shortage, Rod and Stephanie, of takes out there, right? Some informed, some hot and some what I would call a bit over the top. So I want to ask you both, and Ron, I'm gonna circle back to you here. Whether it's your own take or conversations you've had out there talking with company leadership or industry leadership, what's one of the most unique takes that you have shared or heard in terms of how organizations are going to be pushing forward throughout and through rather all the uncertainty.

B (14:32)

And complexity, it's the two extremes I have heard on one end, if there's a mention of a tariff, if there is a tariff, if there's a rumor of a tariff, we are going to redesign our whole supply chain around all of that. We are going to start all over and do everything. And the other end is there's so much going on, there's so much chatter, it's changing hourly. As you said earlier, I'm not going to do anything. I can't possibly design a system to keep up with the rate of change right now, especially when we don't know how much of it is true and how much of it is posturing and whatnot. I would imagine the real answer lies somewhere in the middle. I would say as an academic, if you think you're going to have supply uncertainty because of tariffs, then you need to move from effective supply chain strategies to more risk hedging strategies. If you think your demand uncertainty is going to go up, you need to move from that effectiveness focus to more of a responsive focus. If you think you're going to have both supply and demand uncertainty, then you need to be embracing agile strategies. That's how I would approach those things. And in each of those there's a long term and a short term of how you want to go about doing it. The right answer somewhere in the middle. It's not redesign everything, it's not do nothing. You can take some short term risk hedging and responsiveness type measures until you know what's going to happen longer term.

C (15:57)

I love that sound practical advice and perspective. Reminds me of two thoughts, Rod and Stephanie. Number one, it's not Armageddon, but it's not unicorns. Candy, you know, you know Subway, we.

B (16:11)

Ever have those days, do we have unicorns in supply chain?

C (16:14)

Never. Some, some years are better than others. I'll say that though. But then the other thing that. And it's never too late, right? It's never too late. Right. But for those organizations that really know their ecosystem and they've invested to, to really get real supply chain visibility, which is more possible than ever before, those are the folks are in best position to follow your advice, Rod. Right. And find that right middle ground that works for them. That's not an overreacting or it's not a head in the sand. Everything's gonna be okay. And you know, the organizations that haven't learned that lesson in the last few years, they're gonna learn it and have the opportunity once we get past this ordeal to do what many organizations have already done. At least my thoughts, Stephanie, same question. What, what's the take? That's been one of your favorites as it relates to this.

A (17:02)

So Scott, I'm gonna back up and talk about like how I approach this with my students. First of all, I thought Rod gave some Great options. And I'm not even going to try to one up him and give him the $3 million answer or whatever is what I've been telling students is one, be aware of what's going on, like if you're going to go in this field, but that supply chain professionals figure it out. So whatever is out there, you know, whether it was Covid to your point, every, all the AI, everything else that that's coming, companies and supply chains know how to dig in and address complex problems. That doesn't mean it's going to be easy. That doesn't mean it's going to be okay in a day or a week. But like this is part of the job, this is what we do. So regardless of what happens, we're going to dig in and figure out, okay, how do we make it through. And if we're not prepared as an organization or as leaders to do that, then we're probably going to lose in the long run compared to competition. And so I think it's the idea that regardless of which extreme we end up on or somewhere in the middle, it's the idea of day in and day out for supply chain professionals, regardless of what the situation is that happens, we're going to figure out how to keep things working. We're going to figure out how to keep those retail shelves full, we're going to figure out how to keep hospitals full of inventory for needs of patients, all this stuff. And so from that I'm going to say I take the optimistic of we're all going to figure it out approach.

C (18:29)

Yeah, I'm with you. I am very practically optimistic. And Ron, I'm gonna give you the last word here before we move on to a different subject. But talking with my dear friends overseas and in Europe and elsewhere, there's all sorts of takes geopolitically, trade wise, you name it. And as I was exchanging someone with yesterday, we had a little difference of opinions, which is great, right? You're gonna have that. And the best relationships are where you can exchange very frank, differing opinions very respectfully. But what I told my friend is, hey, my best personal relationships that I have with folks are folks that we've duked it out at times, but I know that when I need them, they're going to be the first call. And I don't mean to sound too naive, but there's an element of that geopolitically, right? The best of allies are going to have dust ups and we're going to get through this because to your point, Stephanie, this is what we do, there's that camaraderie that I've experienced firsthand in the manufacturing world when hey, a lot some of these problems are outside our control. But our cross functional team's gonna jump on it and we're gonna make it happen. I wish we all maybe had some easier problems out of our control. But hey, it's nature of what we do. Rod give you the last word on the current disruption? Because kind of to your point earlier when I was talking about unicorn fairy, fairy tale land, that's not reality. We signed up for this disruption. That's what supply chain management pros do, right?

A (19:54)

Yep.

B (19:54)

Murphy's law always applies, especially in supply chains. As much as we like to eliminate, we use all of our systems, all of our fancy math to eliminate or predict uncertainty. It always creeps back in.

C (20:07)

Yes.

B (20:08)

And that's why we're always going to have a job. That's why supply chains are so important. I don't know if you remember that article in Harvard Business Review a couple years ago where they said AI would be the death of supply chain.

C (20:18)

Yes.

B (20:20)

If nothing ever happened and we had nice predictable steady demand and every item, there were no new items and we knew exactly what was going to happen. Maybe. But that's not the world we live in. We have pandemics, we have strikes, we have wildfires, we have I 40s shutting down with, you know, bridge collapses. There's always something that comes up and that's where supply chain professionals really shine. To Stephanie's point. We figure out a way to get it done. We figure out a way really efficiently and effectively to get it done. So it'll be another challenge. Yep. We're going to have a learning curve. We'll get through it.

C (20:59)

I'm with you. I love that, love that perspective from you both. And it might be in that same HBR article you're referencing or might be a different one. And I'm going to paraphrase this because I'm not getting it exactly right, but there was a professor that said somewhere AI is not going to replace people, but people with AI will replace people without AI. And I thought that was a pretty sound take for a variety of reasons. Okay. We could talk probably for three hours on just this last topic, but I'm gonna move ahead because there's so much more. I wanna get Stephanie and Rod to talk about that. I think it's gonna benefit our, our audience here. And my next topic is supply chain higher education. And I'm really looking forward to getting both of yalls perspective here. I want to start first though. A lot of our hiring managers out there, a lot of our organizations, we all are familiar with the talent challenge we have. Whether it's attracting it, developing. Right. And fulfilling the talent, I'll call it, and then of course retaining the talent. That's just probably three of the easiest phases to kind of talk about. But whether it's an internship program, Stephanie, kind of going back to one of your most powerful chapters in your career, or if we're just talking about outright hiring best practices, I'd love to get both of you all to give a few pieces of advice to especially our hiring managers and organizations out there. And Stephanie, let's go with you first.

A (22:21)

So Rod may jump in on this too when we're talking about it because this is something if you want to talk about great kitchen table conversations at night at dinner, you're getting an insight into discussion that of course, you know, we've discussed that. A lot of companies don't treat attracting talent with the same thought and strategy that they do a lot of their other, I'll call them purchases but acquiring of resources. And so some of it is like, okay, as an organization, I wish more companies would sit down and get real about what do they need in terms of talent. You know, okay, yes, we want to have an internship program, but if the interns have a terrible experience, that brand is not going to translate. Those people aren't going to come back. You know, there's all the stuff of thinking about, you know, how much are we willing to pay? Is that competitive with other graduates at, you know, whatever university? Do we need to pull somebody from a university? Who are we competing with at those universities and really get real about what you're bringing to the table, but also what you're looking for so that you can be much more targeted and hopefully successful with your approach. And Rod, I'll stop there and see if you want to build anything on on that.

B (23:39)

I'll build on what you said. Then I want to go back to the internships. It's a supplier selection decision. Universities are suppliers of human capital and talent for you. I'm always amazed at corporate hiring when they go to college campuses. They'll go to 50 different campuses. We would never do that in supply chains. We would not have 50 suppliers for widgets or gadgets. Now I don't think you to go to just one. You don't sole source either. But you need to build deeper relationships with fewer universities after you realize who is a good fit for you and When I say fit, skill fit, geographical fit, do those students from those universities want to take the jobs that you have? Can you afford them or can they afford you? Type things. But it is very analogous to a supplier selection decision. Treat it that way and to Stephanie's point, do the analysis and all that. The other best practice, I would say if you want to hire really well, build a robust internship program. That is the single most important thing you can do. It saves you money, you get better talent that way. You have long term benefits. For example, when you do a 30 minute interview, the only thing you know about somebody is whether they do a 30 minute interview. Well, if they answer your questions well, that's it. If you have them for a summer, for three months, you know what their grit is, you know what their determination is, whether they have initiative, what they work like under stress, when they have the sniffles, you're going to make a better hiring decision. I mean, think about a bad hire in industry, how much that costs you. You don't have that as much with interns. I got to the point in industry I wouldn't hire somebody unless they had interned for me. The second thing is you're going to potentially, if they don't come work for you, they might still be a future supplier or customer of yours. So you're already helping build relationships throughout the supply chain and indoctrinate them. Shelly Simpson shared that with us years ago from J.B. hunt. And I think that insight is really important for companies to remember. The last thing, the biggest hidden benefit. When you have an internship program and those students come back and they tell everybody about it, it's great word of mouth marketing. But when they go in the classroom, that elevates the entire classroom. If I have five students in a class of 30 that had really good internships, it's going to be a better class and they will lift everybody up. So you're not just developing that one person you might hire, you're developing dozens of others with a halo effect. And I don't think anybody understands that. But you're lifting the talent pool of everybody up. If you have robust internship programs. And I know I went over my 30 seconds there, but that's a passionate one.

C (26:23)

I reserve the remainder of my two minutes to the gentleman from Arkansas. Is that how they do it in the Congress?

B (26:28)

I don't know.

C (26:29)

That's, that's the remainder advice from you both because I know it doesn't just come from what's proven, like from research and from data. It also comes from what You've seen organizations do and the benefits they've gotten. Probably plugging into University of Arkansas. I want to go back to two things real quick. Stephanie, in particular, you talked about knowing what success looks like so you can really target and also invest. Right. So we're not just, you know, checking the box, but it really becomes a vibrant program, whether it is an internship program or if it's a, you know, talent recruiting element of your strategy. Right. So don't fund it on pennies and dimes. Let's really put some commas behind it. Is that right?

A (27:11)

Well, even something as simple as if you have decided, here's your five universities you're going to partner with, be very intentional about who from your organization goes to the networking events, goes to the career fairs, is a guest speaker in the classroom. You know, we had a career fair here at the University of Arkansas, the Walton College did this week. And I make my students go. I give class off to. To go so they get the experience. A lot of them are freshmen. It's the first time they're. They're doing this. We're trying to demystify so that they'll, you know, do it more down the road. And, you know, a lot of times they're like, well, the recruiter was really rude or the recruiter was really dismissive, or they didn't look like they wanted to be there. Like, you know, that's just a tactical. Rod's talking great strategy. Tactical is be strategic about who you're putting out in front of people. That's your brand that you're representing. And, you know, students talk a lot. Rod mentioned that. That too, that word of mouth. And if somebody is a freshman, has a bad experience talking to someone at your organization, they might be an extremely great hire for you. They may never come back and talk to you again, you know, and so you've lost that. And I think the other thing. And Rod didn't necessarily get there yet with some of his stuff, but we are seeing more and more companies with their internship programs that aren't just doing the traditional target students the summer after their junior year to hire them, hopefully after they graduate as a senior. That is a great model that is very successful. But more and more companies are being open to freshmen and sophomores. That's also meaning that a lot of the students coming out now may have two, three, even four internships because some of them are doing them during the school year. That's a lot more experience. If you want those students, you're going to have to you know, put the, put the dollar signs on it because they are more valuable.

C (29:07)

Yeah. Rod, I'm gonna come at you in just a second. We've been doing this now generation series for a long time. Stephan. We had you and some students, which were a brilliant episode. And what you're describing, kind of what you and Rod both are describing of how internship programs and those experiences not only elevate their knowledge and how they can talk about global supply chain, but they elevate the conversations around them and the panels and students around them. We're seeing that in the quality, and that might not be the right word, but just how savvy they are. You know, since we've been doing this years ago and then now what we're seeing in recent weeks, it is amazing. And clearly these students. It's great that companies are not only investing in these things that you're both talking about, the students are raising their hand and they're taking advantage of the opportunity, which I didn't do in college. Right. But, Rod, I'll come back to you. I loved your the. Rather than going shallow and wide is what I want to say. It's not what I mean, but rather than going an inch, an inch deep and then do 50 universities. I loved how you talked about the value of deeper relationships and how you also, you related that to, you know, how we approach sourcing suppliers in the supply chain. So I'll give you the last word because this is a really internship and of course, figuring out the talent equation. This is probably, you know, a couple of the most important things we'll talk about today. So, Rod, your last thoughts here?

B (30:27)

Hiring good people is the most important thing we do as managers. You hire good people. Everything else seems to take care of itself. The universities are a pipeline, not the only pipeline, but you build a relationship with certain universities, you hire a lot of their students, they have good experiences, you'll have more voice.

C (30:45)

Yeah.

B (30:46)

You can offer ideas on curriculum, you can work with the faculty, you can get funded research projects. Any of these good supply chain programs that I know are willing to work with industry partners. Why wouldn't you? That's our lab. From a research perspective, that's the laboratory we want to go work with. We were committed to helping students and employers find good fits and match up with each other, take advantage of those opportunities. But you're going to have to put some time in. Right. It's building a relationship, just like you would with your closest suppliers. I would treat universities like a close supplier of arguably the most important asset that you're going to source.

C (31:24)

I love that perspective. The first thing comes to my FaceTime, invest in the travel, invest in that FaceTime students and, and, and support some of the things they're looking to do as you look to build those relationships. Stephanie Rod, outstanding in this kind of, I'll call it state of supply chain higher education. One other topic I want to ask you both about is that continued evolution of both supply chain students that are matriculating through from all walks of life, and then also the education programs themselves. Stephanie, what's a couple observations related to those parallel evolutionary journeys that you see?

A (32:02)

So it's been very interesting, I think I've been in academia now 15 years, and the students coming into supply chain are evolving and changing. You know, it used to be I teach an intro class, so it's a lot of times the first stop that students get that they've ever heard about, you know, supply chain and wow, this is better than accounting. You know, I mean, we don't want everybody to say. To say that. And I'm like going back to that math thing. Scott. Yeah. We talked about earlier, but we're starting to see more students coming in, aware of it. Covid had something to do with that. But we're seeing students come in whose parents have worked in the field and like, hey, they put food on the table and seem to have a job. And this is kind of good. We're also finding students that in maybe an assessment in high school, it guides them, hey, this is a potential career path that changes the dynamics, especially with early classes, of actually having students excited about this instead of like, oh, this is the, the business core class that we have to take. This is going to be terrible. Well, when you have a bunch of students that get really excited about it, that changes, as Rob said, whether the. Those with the experience of an internship, that changes the class. Well, students that think this is cool and exciting, that changes the dynamic in the classroom as well. And we're starting to see more students that are on scholarship. Our honor students or whatever are choosing this and it used to not be that way. So I think we're also getting a different mix of students in there, which are great for all the wide variety of career paths and opportunities that we have in the, in the field. So it really goes, hey, it. Depending on who you are, there's a place for you go in the hard skill, soft skills in, in supply chain management. And so it's been interesting to watch the awareness and the evolution. And yes, Covid being part of that, but also other factors. And some of that's even trickling down to this being a topic that is taking place in maybe high schools now and stuff, which never used to be something that you would hear anybody talking about.

C (34:10)

Right. And we're going to touch on that in a second. Good stuff there, Stephanie. I appreciate that, especially your. Your observations on the student evolutionary path. There's Rod.

B (34:20)

What are you seeing from a trends perspective? There are certain transferable skills that are always going to be there. We always need problem solvers, we need analytical thinkers. We need process expertise. We need those soft skills that we talked about earlier, the ability to lead, communicate, collaborate. I think what is changing is what tools you're going to use to do those things. I'm going to date us, all three of us, a little bit. It's not Lotus 1, 2, 3. Then it became Excel. Now it's Power BI. I opened up an Access database recently and people were like, what is that? Databases are still there, but the tools are getting better. The analytical capabilities are better than ever before. There's more data out there than ever before. How we craft that into a useful story, useful, actionable information becomes more and more important. The tools will change. Those core skill sets, I think, are constant. From a content perspective, supply chains are still about planning, acquiring something, transforming it and distributing it.

C (35:21)

Right.

B (35:22)

Those core things aren't going to go away. How we accomplish that work. Might we talk a lot now in higher ed about how do we want students to use generative AI that can really enhance communication, that could help them write better. It could also become a crutch where they don't learn to write at all. How do we want to do those things? A colleague of mine the other day was saying, it's the new calculator, it's the new Excel. Like, why wouldn't we want students to use that? So communicating with supply chain partners is always going to be important nowadays. How are we going to do that? Maybe AI helps with that. Maybe AI helps with replenishment systems or forecasting systems or any of the nuts and bolts tactics within a supply chain.

C (36:02)

You know, curriculum and its content and the body of knowledge that both of y' all share with these bright students. I can only imagine how challenging that is when the velocity, when business velocity and supply chain velocity and just how fast the globe runs right now, how tough it is to constantly evolve that body of knowledge that you lean on and plan classes around. Is that one of the top challenges and what y' all do day in and day out?

B (36:34)

One of the top challenges is of all those things we could go into, what does every supply chain manager need? I can train you for a very specific role at Walmart. I could train you for a very specific role at Lockheed Martin. Those are going to be two very different types of educational experiences. What we need to do is educate you and think about those transferable skills that Walmart and Lockheed and any other company out there would need. That's the challenge we have, of course. Do you go deep into a few things that few companies value or do you go broader across the whole spectrum? And the answer, I think, and you'll see this at a lot of universities, there'll be a broad core curriculum and then students have electives or concentrations or subspecialties to go into for that.

C (37:20)

Okay. All right, Stephanie, your thoughts there before I move on?

A (37:24)

No, I agree. When you talk about evolution of programs, a lot of supply chain programs have been more traditionally focused on one of those areas. Maybe Rod was talking about maybe more focused on manufacturing or maybe more focused on transportation or sourcing. And I think you're seeing a lot of universities try to go more with curriculum that is doing the end to end. And I think if you're looking at it from the end to end in a curriculum, you've got to go, okay, what are the basics? As Rod said, okay, maybe you're not going to do this by hand this way or whatever, but understand the impact of A on B and stuff like that. To give them the basics, but then also challenge them on the art side of things and the creative side of things. Of, okay, because we all know the problems don't have a rule book to follow to get them to work out right. Of, okay, maybe A has this impact on B normally, but you know, in a situation like what's going on with tariffs, the rule book changes, or a pandemic. So let's think outside the box. What could we do? So part of it is when we're talking about AI and some of these other tools, how are we still developing thinkers and problem solvers and yet also trying to go, how do you do that in a group? How do you collaborate with people? Because that's a big part of supply chain. I tell all my students the supply chain is an ongoing series of buying and selling relationships. And it's that whole relationship piece of it and the management of those relationships, to me, that is that competitive advantage that separates who's the most successful VERs versus their competitors.

C (38:58)

I like that, Stephanie. And by the way, folks, you still got to show your work. It's my hunch out there, Stephanie. And ride. I don't know. It always used to get me. Okay, both of y' all referenced earlier. Kind of moving upstream, so to speak. Middle school, high schools, and some of you out there in our global audience, smartest audience, all land, may not realize that even. Yes, even after the pandemic, when global supply chain had its moment in the sun, for better or for worse, depending on the day, our industry still needs more effective awareness. Especially when it comes to what kind of what we're talking about. Ensuring that healthy, diverse pipeline of talents coming to our field. We're making great gains. I would argue there truly is. I want to spike the football on this. Stephanie, Rod, because y' all both alluded to it, there's something for everybody in global supply chain. And I think a lot of times, I know I did as a kid, I put blinders on and made certain assumptions of what I could do and couldn't do. We got to dispel those blinders. So, Rod, I'm gonna come to you here first. What do you believe is needed, especially as we move upstream into that middle school and high school level in terms of supply chain awareness?

B (40:03)

Awareness. What? What? What is it? Right. Well, a lot of these.

A (40:07)

Million dollar answer.

C (40:09)

There you go. All right.

B (40:10)

That was only a buck 29. A lot of these kids, they'll grow up with accountants for a parents or finance or some other area. They have an intuitive understanding of just growing up around it. Historically, we've not had that advantage in business schools with supply chain. We're starting to now. I mean, the pandemic was the best thing that ever happened to supply chain recruiting because it was constantly in the news and people realized how it impacted them. So teaching them the basics of it, helping them understand those shoes that they thought were so cool or that iPhone that they can't pull out of their ear, how did they get that? Where did that come from? That supply chains make our lives better. Supply chains get us the things we need and want. The more we can get that message out there, I think that will be powerful and stuff. Has done a phenomenal job of going to high schools and middle schools doing that. So there you go, baby. I teed it up for you, Rod.

C (41:04)

Hitting aside, I love that response. Continuing to preach the gospel that everything has a supply chain, right? And a talented bunch of humans that that leverage the coolest technology to make it right there putting our fingertips. And we need to keep preaching that from the mountain.

B (41:21)

What I'm really preaching When I get going in class, I'll tell them we are the original business discipline, and we are the most important. And I tell them as soon as I say that, if I. If any of my friends in accounting or finance or any other area, they'd roll their eyes. I was like, at the end of the day, we are the only functional area of business where people die. If we don't do our jobs well, we will starve. We will not have medicine, we will not have energy, we will not have shelter. We will not have all the basics. And I. I go back to, like, caveman days of, sure, that's where the basics of supply chain came about.

C (41:54)

Hey, I'm with you, Rod. I am with you. That sounds like a T shirt. We all need to make and disseminate with the finest distribution management around. All right, Stephanie, same question. And I'd love to learn a little bit more about the work you're doing in schools, but what do you see as terms of what we need to get the word out better?

A (42:10)

So I think one of the biggest areas of opportunity is educating the educators. So Rod and I have done some. Some work with some teachers in one of the local school systems, and there's a desire to communicate information. But, you know, if you've always been in education and haven't been in business and you don't. You've heard supply chain, but you don't know what it is. I. I know as an educator, I teach what I'm most comfortable with. And so it's hard to, like, okay, I. I know supply chain is important, but I don't know anything about it. And so we participated in and done some training activities with middle school and high school teachers and stuff, just to demystify it and give them some kind of examples and some tools and resources so they could feel confident in, you know, dropping in those little, hey, those tennis shoes you got. You know, guess where they came from. Thought about that. You know, making it not. Not scary and overwhelming. And we've gone into some classes and played games with the students and had them, you know, with blocks, and they're assigned different roles, and they have to buy and sell stuff and put things together. And, like, they get it. You know, you have them playing and they're negotiating and spending money and whatever, and, you know, we debrief afterwards. But I'll have a very similar debrief with middle school or high school kids that in a lot of cases, I'll do with college kids. Like, they start getting, wow. Yeah. When we couldn't get those products, like that was frustrating or, you know, they made a deal with me and then they went behind my back and did it over here. That's terrible. You know, they so that just plants those seeds and they think it's fun. And so you're like this, this is an easy, easy kind of sell. And we've been fortunate locally that in the Benton county school system there was a couple teachers that recognize this as, you know, an area of opportunity. And we got to work with where they've actually added and intro to supply chain course as an option in the high school. I'm like, when, wow, you know, kind of thing. And so there are programs and in high schools and middle schools and stuff out there that are starting to think ahead. And one of the things that I'm really passionate about is education is expensive, especially if you're looking at higher education. You can work in a supply chain role, gaining experience while you're working on your degree. And if you need to help your family and like all this, some of the barriers I think you can. This is a field that without having the degree, you can start getting experience in making a good living, maybe helping your family or take, you know, whatever your situation is while you're still getting your degree so that then again you're ultimately able to have a different career path or a more accelerated career path. And that's one of the education areas I've tried to do as well as whether it's UPS or FedEx or Walmart or any place, there's a lot of jobs you can do where you are contributing to the supply chain and the movement of goods. So you're learning why you're still getting your education or when you're getting ready to get your education, which again is going to make you more valuable, creating.

C (45:27)

Your own opportunities, creating your own serendipity, gaining real powerful and market valuable skill sets. And I love just by the way, intro to supply chain at a high school level. Public, private school systems out there, hey, beat down Stephanie and Rod's door and figure out how we can make that happen in schools everywhere.

A (45:49)

I'll throw out too real quick. I remember when my son was in middle school, there was like a math teacher going asking parents like, if you use math in your job, will you, will you come in and talk to the class about it? And I took some Capri Suns and we talked about a Capri sun supply chain. So parents, there's an opportunity you could go in and spend time with your kids, class, explain. It helps if you can make it fun, but there's an opportunity that you can still be involved and your kids start to think, well that's cool what mom or dad does.

C (46:22)

Oh, I'm with you. And, and I think Rod said it. There's more and more folks in supply chain so more and more kids are being exposed to what the cool things mom and dad do. And, and hopefully since mom and dad is usually the kids first consultant, as someone told me once long time ago and it's so true, they can ask them about what they do and, and you know, whether it's driving forklifts, picking products or you know, chief supply chain officer, all points in between. We need the whole episode just focused on this awareness piece and moving it upstream. But for the sake of time, I want to. Rod, I've got a big topic here as we kind of segue to coming down the home stretch. And as I shared pre show, this might be above my pay grade so you might have to talk slow and use shorter words with your buddy Scott here. But you've researched extensively, Rob Thomas, that intersection of retail media networks and supply chain management and I'd love to get you to share some findings, a few observations here for us.

B (47:24)

Let's talk about what a retail media network is. It's an advertising driven model that Amazon invented. Amazon started to take a look at all the data they had on consumers. They're already an online company. They said how can we monetize that? And they mimicked Google, Facebook and whatnot. And those companies, Google and Facebook, they sell ads to companies and they say, hey, we exposed Rod to an ad, then he went and searched for your product. Therefore we think he probably bought it. Pay us money for the advertisement.

C (48:05)

Gotcha.

B (48:05)

Amazon can do what they call closing the loop. Amazon knows what ad I saw, what ad they gave me, what I searched for and what I bought. That's very different than approximating what I might buy. And they have all that history for two decades now. They know some of us better than we know some of us on what our purchasing patterns are. So it is the most micro targeted advertising out there. Remember when we were kids the newspaper would just have glossy tabs and advertisements for general things. And you know, my newspaper would come with shampoo products. I don't, I don't need shampoo, but Amazon now knows I don't need shampoo. They could tell you if I lost weight or not by the clothes that I buy and whatnot. And I'm using Amazon as generic retailer but they have that understanding of of us take that concept, that marketing tool, which is phenomenal, pair it up with supply chain needs from a demand shaping perspective. And demand shaping is all about how do we take marketing tools reshape demand in ways that help us operationally. For example, if we have too much of stuff in a retail store, we go out of season, we tend to mark it down, and globally we'll go 25% off, then we'll go 50% off, then we'll go 75% off, and then we bring in the new stuff for spring. With retail media networks, you might not even need to get to markdowns because if you link it up with a POS system, you know each individual store, each sku how much they have on hand and at the same time, you know what consumers individually shop in that store and what proclivities they have to buy. So rather than marking down XXL golf shirts that happen to be black or navy in my store, they might just say, hey Rod, did you get this season's golf shirts? And they could prompt demand. And they're getting so good at it. They don't have to send that out to everybody. They know who exactly will buy that size and that color. They know our proclivity and they won't over advertise either. Where you create a stock out, they can micromanage that Based on that detailed understanding of every consumer at the skew by location level. That is the most powerful demand shaping tool that I could possibly think of.

C (50:34)

Rod. I love it. And we need to add Yalls research paper in the episode notes. We'll try to do that. But two things. Rod, you shared that there's lots of good stuff in those organizations like Amazon and others that really get that right. But two things in particular. And Stephanie, I will get your thoughts, especially using the fashion example, right? Fashion, there's so much complexity. You got to stay on top of trends. Fashion folk, supply chain leaders in the fashion industry, man, I tell you what, I don't know how they do it. To your point. There's organizations that are able to really zero it in at that intersection of retail media networks and supply chain management. What I hear and you're as you shared, is less waste, right? Less waste and of course less complexity because there's perfect alignment. But Stephanie, your thoughts on this intersection we're talking about?

A (51:24)

Well, as Rod's talking about and he was using Amazon as an example. Amazon's done a good job. There's a lot of people that are trying to get there. They're still thinking of retail media networks as mainly a marketing tool. So the opportunity, what Rod's really been trying to lean into is communicate. Hey, supply chain, here's how you take all this data that maybe that your organization's looking at from a marketing lens and really lean into how it could help do all those things that Rod was talking about. So I'm thinking about it as there's a lot of opportunity here. Like some people have kind of got it figured out. A lot of people are trying to. Yes, they're still doing it from the marketing lens. And it's like, okay, this is one of those times we need to collaborate together. Because to your point, there's so many things that we win from. Whether it's, you know, the sustainability side of things with less wins and less markdowns and more profitability overall, meeting customer needs, those are wins for the entire organization. So how do we continue a supply chain to go, okay, hey guys, over here in marketing or advertising, let's partner up because there's, there's lots of potential here.

B (52:34)

I'm preaching this. This isn't being done at a wide scale. I'm saying this is a phenomenal opportunity. Remember when point of sale first came out, how that fundamentally changed retail supply chains? I think retail media is another fundamental change. If we match that up with pos, you can balance supply and demand.

C (52:55)

Yeah.

B (52:55)

In real time at the individual sku, by location, by person level. We have the computing power to do it. We have the data to do it. It's getting those two diverse sides of the business to talk. To Stephanie's point, Rod, excellent.

C (53:10)

The other thing of the thought that hearing both of you all talk about this comes to my mind is there was a time there when the word big data first came to prominence, when organizations were accumulating all this data, but they weren't exactly sure what to do with it. And of course they were spending a bunch of money to do it. What you're describing here in this next opportunity, it's not quite widespread. Could be one of the biggest, more powerful ways that big data truly is leveraged and delivers on the long standing promise. And not that it hasn't, I mean, it's delivered in so many different ways. But to this point, Rod, massive opportunity. Massive opportunity. We're going to have you back and you have to give us an update. Maybe later in the year on, we're going to see if more organizations can see this massive opportunity. Because it seems like not just a great opportunity for organizations, but for our industry. As we look the Other dilemma we have is, as you are well aware of, everybody's loving AI Right. But of course, it takes so much juice. And on the other side of the coin, we all want more sustainability outcomes and demands. We gotta solve these ratios and these, these seesaws different ways. So. Okay, we're gonna have to have the Thomas's back for another power hour. But Stephanie, I want to ask you about one of your really cool initiatives. And then, Rod, I'm gonna ask you about a new leadership role you assumed. So, Stephanie, last time you're with us, we talked all about wise and we talked about in particular the Wise Future Leaders Symposium, which is coming up this fall. Tell us more about it and how can folks get involved?

A (54:44)

So the Wise Future Leaders Symposium is an annual event which brings together supply chain students from a large number of universities across the country. I anticipate about 30 this year. It's a day and a half event and it's filled with professional development, networking and connection building, leadership development, as well as industry knowledge. The idea is to help bring together students from other places with industry to learn more about all the different opportunities in our field. A lot of universities may have certain, as we talked about, partners and companies that they work with, and maybe they don't have as big of a perspective on all the different opportunities out there. And as students go into their first role out of college, that first role is very important on whether or not they stay in the field. And so making sure that students are equipped to understand the different roles, opportunities, and things that fit with their wants and their needs means we get people in the right place, working for the right organization, in the right role, and then we keep them in the field so that we don't lose that talent somewhere else. And so it's a great time where we get to connect with faculty, students and industry professionals from across the country. Lots of enthusiasm, lots of excitement. Excitement. And we have some wonderful industry partners that help support and participate in the event.

B (56:13)

You got to come to it, Scott.

C (56:15)

You know what is a cool vibe, Rod? We're going to try to do just that this year. We're going to try to bring several team members and we may even try to capture some interviews. And of course, we eat some really good barbecue there in Arkansas. But I bet that, I bet y' all can help us find.

B (56:30)

We'll hook you up.

C (56:33)

What's the dates?

A (56:33)

It's going to be September 18th and 19th here at the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

C (56:39)

Okay, folks, you gotta. She brought pictures last time we really dove into some stories and anecdotes. I'm telling you, like Rod said, it's a really cool vibe with some powerful outcomes. So September 18th through the 19th there at the University of Arkansas. And if you reach out Stephanie, I promise you she'll have all the deets and ways you can get involved. Okay, Rod, you have got. I don't know how. Y' all have got like seven full plates each. I'm not sure how. Maybe we're talking to your clones right now. I'm not sure you've got a new role. Let's see here. Co editor in charge, designate for the Journal of Business Logistics. So, Rod, from what I uncovered, there's lots of different things that it's involved in Yalls ecosystem. What's one of your favorite either pieces of content or programming or you name it, that you're passionate about being involved in?

B (57:28)

The reason I chose Journal of Business Logistics to be one of the co editors is unlike a lot of academic journals, it has strong ties to industry. So it started with the Council of Supply Chain Management Professionals. It still has a very close relationship with them and it still wants to have relevant topics for managers. Now, I'm not saying do not, unless you're having trouble sleeping, do not go pick up academic journals and read through those. There's some dense stuff in there that even PhDs sometimes start to gloss over through. But what we really want is research that is grounded in an industry problem. And we want a nugget somewhere in there, probably at the end, where we summarize things that a manager could take and go help implement to solve a problem. Now there's going to be a bunch of theory and methods and all the academic mumbo jumbo. But at the end of the day, we still, relative to most academic journals, have really strong ties to industry. And that to me, is what it's all about. Research should not be something that's just in an ivory tower for professors to read. It should eventually filter back down to business. And the way you do that is by being engaged with business. And that's our laboratory.

C (58:43)

That's.

B (58:43)

That's what we want. We want real life data from real life managers with real life problems. That's the type of research that we want. We want it to be rigorous and theoretically based and make academic contributions too. But we also have that industry piece. And that's been the biggest draw for me to journal Business Logistics.

C (59:01)

Right. I love it. Research is not a dirty word. It is so important. It drives so much innovation and learnings. And it helps us change how Supply chain is done. So I'm looking forward to. I will probably flip to the end and get some of the summaries when I get my copy of the next one. But I know I can pick up the phone and get the down and dirty from you both on that research topic. So look forward to it. Congrats on the new role. All right, what a wide ranging but fun and very informative and sometimes inspirational hour here. Let's make sure folks know how to connect with both of y'.

B (59:36)

All.

C (59:37)

And Dr. Stephanie Thomas, let's start with you. How can folks reach out to you?

A (59:41)

The easiest way to connect is on LinkedIn and then you can also find both Rod and I look up the University of Arkansas supply chain directory online and you can see our pretty faces and find our email addresses too.

C (59:55)

That's just that easy. Rod, anything else to add to that?

B (59:59)

What she said. Okay, yeah, that's it. We're not hard to find and we love talking to you and helping you and working with people.

C (60:06)

And that's evident. Stephanie's been with us now three times, I think, on Supply Chain now and this is your first time and you keep it real. And you're also operating at a higher level that we need to learn from. And I was looking for. Oh, here we go. I'm waiting on Had. I forgot the kitten's name for a second. As we start to wrap, I'll be looking on TikTok for the hijinks of Smokey and Sui. Okay, you're gonna have several million followers and then we can talk about different campaigns and shows. How about that?

B (60:35)

Sounds like a player on Supply Chain Kitties.

C (60:38)

There you go. There you go. Our friend Marty Parker here at uga, the supply chain dog. We'll have a little rivalry there, but nevertheless, I want to thank our outstanding guests here today, folks. Hopefully you enjoyed the show as much as I did. Dr. Stephanie Thomas. Thank you so much, Stephanie. Thank you, Scott and Dr. Rod Thomas. Rod, so nice to meet you here today.

B (60:59)

Really nice to meet you. I appreciate it.

C (61:01)

You bet. And as I mentioned, on the front end, both serve as associate professors of supply chain management in the Walton College of Business at the number one ranked at least according to Gartner University of Arkansas. And that number one ranking, of course, is tied to their outstanding supply chain management program, which, you know, we had lots of takeaways. So whether you're fellow academics listening, whether you're fellow students, whether you're fellow hiring managers and organizations looking to really get better at at not just bringing talent on, but engaging that talent, developing them. Lots and lots of takeaways here. I got 17 pages of notes, Stephanie and Rod, when I kept turning here, I was adding to my book, my Thomas book. Now, okay, great show. But to our audience members out there, you've got some homework, right? It's not probably as tough as the Thomas's classes, but you got to take one thing you heard here today and you got to put it into practice. Working together, we can create our opportunities for all. And you know, that happens with deeds, not words. So with all that said, on behalf of the entire team here at Supply Chain Now, Scott Luton, challenging you, all of our listeners. Do good, give forward, be the change that's needed. And we'll see you next time right back here on Supply Chain Now.

B (62:07)

Thanks, everybody.

C (62:09)

Join the Supply Chain now community. For more Supply Chain perspectives, news and innovation, check out supply chain now.com subscribe to Supply Chain now on YouTube.

A (62:18)

YouTube.

C (62:18)

And follow and listen to Supply Chain now wherever you get your podcasts.