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- [00:00]
Zubin Apu
We weren't focusing on the manufacturers, the buyers, the importers. We were focusing on the parties that helped move the goods, the customs brokers that lodged the customs entries with the Australian government to pay the right duties.
- [00:15]
Supply Chain Now Host
Welcome to Supply Chain now the number one voice of Supply chain. Join us as we share critical news, key insights and real supply chain leadership
- [00:23]
Scott Lewton
from across the globe.
- [00:25]
Supply Chain Now Host
One conversation at a time.
- [00:27]
Scott Lewton
Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you may be. Scott Lewton. And he's back folks. Wiley Jones, the Wiley Jones here with you on Supply Chain now. Wally, how you doing today?
- [00:38]
Wiley Jones
I am doing super well. Energizing day, Feeling great. How about you?
- [00:42]
Scott Lewton
The same. I've had a great week. I think you've had a better week. But you know what, we'll might touch on that towards the latter part of today's show. But great to see as always. You know we've got a hit on our hands, Wally. A bit of a hit on our hands. We continue today, a popular new series for 2026. It's not even new anymore. This is our third episode. So we got to take the new label off. Enterprise Unleashed, powered by W. Jones and the DOS team. All of our friends at dos, you're going to hear stories and perspective from innovative individuals that have led transformative change. All that was going to help you drive real targeted outcomes driven change in your own organization. Today folks, we got a big time leader joining us on the show. So stay tuned for an informative, actionable conversation. Wy big show here today. Are you ready to go?
- [01:32]
Wiley Jones
Oh, I'm ready to rock. I'm fired up. This is one I was really looking forward to. I look forward to all of them. But I woke up this morning pretty fired up.
- [01:39]
Scott Lewton
You jumped out of bed, you're saying. Is that right?
- [01:41]
Wiley Jones
I did, yes. I was excited for this.
- [01:43]
Scott Lewton
Well, again appreciate the cloud approach here and appreciate what you and the DOS team are doing moving at 100 miles an hour. So let's get to work. And I want to welcome in our featured guest here today on Enterprise Unleashed. Zubin Apu is the chief executive officer for WiseTech Global, the world's largest logistics supply chain and global trade technology company. In fact, here's a did you know WiseTech Global is Australia's largest ASX listed technology firm? It's like the Australian version of the New York Stock Exchange, right? Wisetech Solutions connect every layer and player in the supply chain ecosystem to optimize the movement of goods around the world. A proven technology leader, Zubin has nearly 25 years of experience we broke our 20 year rule. We never break our 20 year rule wildly, but we had to do it here. Siubin brings about 25 years experience in software development, leadership and commercializing market disrupting products. He spent close to 15 years at WiseTech from 2004 to 2018 where he had a foundational role in the rapid growth of the company, helping to shape WiseTech's growth strategy. Zubin then held various executive leadership roles including Chief Technology Officer at In Loop and many, many others. And then wildly, he rejoined Wisetech in 2025 as chief of Staff and Deputy Chief Innovation Officer before assuming the role of of CEO in July 2025. So please join me in welcoming Zubin Apu, CEO of WiseTech Global. Hey. Hey Zubin, how are you doing today?
- [03:19]
Zubin Apu
Very good. It's great to be here and thanks for that fantastic intro.
- [03:22]
Scott Lewton
Hey, you know Wy, as we promised, you know, we could have been here for 15 minutes introducing Zubin based on what he's done in his journey. But we tried to. Which we did pretty good so far, didn't we?
- [03:32]
Wiley Jones
Wally, that is maybe the best intro that I've ever heard you do. And now I think it's actually a little, it's a little easy. Wisetech is such an awesome company. Zubin's background is so incredible. But the line of Wise Tech connecting every layer and player, I was like, I'm going to take that. That was brilliant. I love that.
- [03:50]
Scott Lewton
I wish I could say those are my own words, but I may have stole that from somewhere along the line. And Zubin and Wally, if I've done anything, y' all know we keep it real with our audience around here. But if we've done anything, we've introduced guests. And Zubin, it's wonderful to have you here. Appreciate your time. So let's do this. Zubin and Wally, fun Warm up question April 7, right today when we're dropping this episode, it's both World Health Day, which is wonderful. And then here in the States it's National Beer Day. So I'm not sure, but that tells me that beer is a key ingredient for healthy living. Maybe that's not how it's meant to be, I don't know. But on that note, Zubin, I'm going to ask you this fundament question. What's one of your favorite beers or springtime beverages? Your thoughts?
- [04:36]
Zubin Apu
Look, my favorite beer would have to be the Irish Kilkenny. And luckily I'll be in Dublin next Thursday, so I'm looking forward to having a couple of nice Kilkennies there.
- [04:46]
Scott Lewton
Oh, man, that sounds delicious. And what do you eat those with?
- [04:49]
Zubin Apu
Zubin, it's the beer that matters. It's not the food. It's only the beer that matters. Unfortunately, in Sydney, Australia, it's really quite difficult to get a Kilkenny here. So I am very excited.
- [05:00]
Scott Lewton
Well, we're going to work on that global supply chain. We're going to make that happen, make that easier. Maybe. We'll see. Wiley Zubin, as we knew, fits right in. How about you? Your favorite beer or beverage?
- [05:11]
Wiley Jones
Well, in tandem with the health day, I've cut back on the beer quite a lot in the last couple of years. But the favorite historically was give a shout out to my fellow Midwesterners, the Wisconsin Narus Spotted Cow. If you're familiar, it's a regional beer and people listeners from the Midwest in the United States will know what I'm talking about. If you've had it, it's the best.
- [05:36]
Scott Lewton
Okay, man, that does sound like a regional beer. Sounds delicious, too. I tell you, I'm not going to be as cool as either one of those choices. I like a good Anchor Steam, which is not necessarily regional. It's a. It's a bigger brand. But I got to tell you, I drink more beer when I'm playing beer golf.
- [05:50]
Wiley Jones
Poor.
- [05:51]
Scott Lewton
A very poor game of beer golf on the golf course. But if I'm home barbecuing, I like chardonnay. I like the light wines. Don't take my cool points for admitting that here today. So, Zubin and W Z, I see you smiling. You're not gonna take my cool points, are you?
- [06:07]
Zubin Apu
I would never dare do that, Scott.
- [06:09]
Wiley Jones
Hey, you get cool points galore. Anchor Steam is actually, I think the brewery is not too far from where I'm sitting right now. It's really Francisco. Yeah.
- [06:18]
Scott Lewton
Okay, we'll make a road trip. That is a delicious beer. I've enjoyed it since long. Well, back in college. Okay, we got a lot of stuff to get to here today on Enterprise Unleashed and Zubin, we're going to follow up that fun moment question by diving a little bit deeper into your background. We shared a little bit, a little bit of that. We'd be here all day, I think, talking about all the twists and turns of your incredible journey. But let's level set a little bit more because, you know, our world views are constantly shaped. Right. With every role we take, every leadership role we take. And I'm really curious, prior to your current role, what were a couple roles that did do just that? It really shaped your worldview.
- [06:57]
Zubin Apu
Look, It's a great question. And as you said in the intro, I actually spent 15 years at WISE Tech in the past. The company was much smaller back then. I joined when the company had about 40 staff in Sydney, Australia. We weren't even called WiseTech back then. We were a very different company. And I spent 15 years at Wisetech building product development and really understanding the supply chain and logistics in depth. And then I left in 2018 when the company was about a thousand staff. And I spent a lot of the seven years out of wisetech in social purpose businesses. I worked in edtech businesses, health tech businesses, aged care businesses, both as CTO and CEO. And those seven years out and the 15 years in Wisetech in my prior time at Wisetech really gave me this sort of contrasting view and different skills in how to lead different types of organizations, how to motivate people, how to solve some of the most complex problems and the most meaningful problems in the world. And then coming back to wisetech nearly a year ago now and bringing those complimentary skills, bringing that diverse experience, and of course, the history of being at WiCetech and building disruptive technology puts me in sort of a great position to lead this fantastic organization.
- [08:11]
Scott Lewton
A lot of that resonates with me. The inside, outside approach. You get kind of the best of both worlds. Let me get one more follow up question to you, then I'll get Wiley to chime in here. As CEO of a global technology company that's doing really big things, really across the world, what are a couple components of your job as CEO that you love most?
- [08:30]
Zubin Apu
Look, I think there's a couple I would call out. The first is having influence over how 7,000 people experience the organization, having influence over how they build disruptive technology and solve problems that others shy away from. That's pretty powerful. And then when you think about the products and services that we actually deliver, software for logistics and software for trade, many people would see that, hopefully not your listeners, but many people would see that as quite a boring industry. Yet it's probably the most important industry in the world. It's also one of the oldest industries in the world. You think about how you order something on Amazon and it turns up the next day. You think about how you order something on ebay and it turns up quickly. That sort of movement of goods, we take that for granted, just like we take electricity for granted, water for granted, and other infrastructure for granted. We take logistics for granted. But it is such a complex industry, such an important industry. And in fact, for me, and for many of our staff. Incredibly exciting.
- [09:29]
Scott Lewton
Zubin, if I had a beer, I'd crack it open and I would toast exactly what you just shared. And I'm only halfway kidding because Wiley, one part of his response there. You know, the globe takes so much for, for granted, including the ability in the supply chain workforce and all the technology that allows us to enjoy these modern conveniences that all of us as consumers do. Right. But Wiley, what resonated with you based on what Zubin has shared about his role and what he loves about his role?
- [09:57]
Wiley Jones
The second part is we're about, about at the size as a company at DOS as what you described when you joined WiseTech. We're at that stage where we're 40, 50, 60 people. And I say still the same thing that you're saying today. And so that that to me is exciting is that even after decades of working on this problem, there are still ways to go apply disruptive technology, to innovate on something that people take for granted. The fact that someone expects now every single company to have the same SLAs and service levels of an Amazon. How do we make it so that every company in the world can deliver a world class supply chain? These are the things that I think are most exciting to me right now is that we have an opportunity to continue to push that frontier and businesses like WiseTech who have been doing it for decades are still ferociously attacking these problems. That just makes me really excited.
- [10:52]
Scott Lewton
I love that. Sounds poetic to my ears, but very true. Wiley, where are we going next with Zubin? Apu here.
- [11:00]
Wiley Jones
So Zubin, I think one thing that is kind of the before and after that I would love to get your point of view on is that the intro Scott gave was fantastic around the wisetech connecting all the layers and the players in the global value chain. How do you describe what wisetech does for the world and for the supply chain? And like we can make it practical and talk about the pragmatic and literally what it does, especially for people who are less familiar with the services and offerings for the company. And then the last clarifier I'll put in there is what did that look like as it changed over time from day one to where you are today because you saw that journey. And so I think that's what's so that's the really unique perspective to hear is like the supply chain matured so much during your time in your tenure there. How is it today and where did it come from?
- [11:50]
Zubin Apu
It's a fantastic story really when you look at our History we've been around for about 32 years now, and in those three decades plus, we have solved some of the most complex problems in logistics ferociously, to steal your word. And we started very Australian focused and a little bit of New Zealand and then into Singapore. But we really focused initially on freight forwarding and customs brokerage. And just so people understand what that means is we're focusing on the people that facilitate the movement of goods. For 32 years, we weren't focusing on the manufacturers, the buyers, the importers. We were focusing on the parties that helped move the goods, the customs brokers that lodged the customs entries with the Australian government to pay the right duties, the freight forwarders that helped a small importer or small exporter move goods from A to B, the warehouse that stored the goods whilst they were going through quarantine or whilst they were going through customs hold, the land transport. So the trucking companies or the drayage operators that would drive a container from the port to the importer or exporter. So these are the middle parts of the supply chain. If you think about the supply chain with manufacturing at one end and consumption or retailers at the other end, our focus has always been the logistics operators in the middle, what we call the logistics service providers. And for 30 years we have expanded that moat and expanded across the entire world. We now have solutions in countries that support 80% of manufactured world trade. We have connections to 140 different shipping lines, 400 different airlines, customs authorities, government departments, biosecurity quarantine across the world. That's quite powerful. And then just because we never get bored and we don't like to sit still, last year we acquired a very large US listed company called E2 Open. And they focus actually on the ends of the supply chain where we didn't really have depth. And that is the manufacturers, the importers, the exporters, the distributors, companies like Dell, companies like Nvidia, companies like l'. Oreal. So now what that means for us is we have connections and we have solutions across the entire supply chain in a way that no other company in the world has. And we don't do that as separate solutions. We don't have a forwarding solution, a custom solution, a warehousing solution. We have a single global operating system that integrates all of that data. It provides financials, it provides master data, it provides AI, provides analysis, it provides insights across the whole supply chain. Because as you would know, many companies these days don't just operate in silos. Many companies do forwarding and brokerage, maybe they deal with shipping lines directly as well. So this is a company that has constantly thought about how can we do more, how can we spread our tentacles into larger parts or further parts off the supply chain and solve some of the most fundamental problems in those areas?
- [14:45]
Wiley Jones
That is exactly the answer I was looking to hear. That is also my outside view of the company is precisely we described and starting with a kernel of truth and insight around how messy the middle is and harmonizing that and then continuing to grow outward from there from the earliest places in the value chain in the life cycle of a product all the way to the place of consumption, kind of then shifting gears and getting into that next point of discussion is that what do you view as the really large opportunities as a business that is a nervous system from that start to finish and has that entire view, what are some of the really massive opportunities that you as a company are thinking about as an infrastructure business that are very different from maybe just the typical enterprise? So especially you worked at some previous, in the intermediate time when you weren't at wisetech, these companies probably didn't have the scope and scale of Systems as what WiseTech has. How do you view the difference opportunity between companies in that position versus infrastructure companies like wisetech, the way you described
- [15:48]
Zubin Apu
it is spot on. Right? We really are a digital infrastructure company. We are like electricity, we are like the grid, we are like the water supply or the Internet supply. We aren't typically seen that way, but that's really what we are doing. If WiseTech or if Cargoise, our main product, wasn't operating, it's not like a freight forwarder or a customs broker has an alternate paper based approach or a different system they can use. Cargoise becomes the operating system for these businesses. So the opportunity here for us is to do more and to do it better and to do it faster. Now you think about what's happening with global trade across the globe, right? You think about the tariffs that are changing regularly. You look at what's happening right now in the Middle east and Iran, where the Strait of Horos is closed and might open shortly. But you think about what impact that has on shipments, on the supply of medicine, on the supply of food, on the supply of other types of materials and stocks. We facilitate that movement and we provide the tooling or the intelligence for our customers to make smart decisions. We give them the options of looking at what does the closure of the Strait of Hormones look like for them, what does it do to shipping line ETAs and transit times and what are the alternate routes they can take. We give trucking operators or drage operators the chance to look at what does increasing fuel prices do? Do they need to pass a fuel and a temporary fuel levy onto their customers or do they need to route differently or do they need to consolidate differently? So I'd say the opportunity here is because the supply chain is becoming increasingly complex. That's a chance for us to shine and to show even more value. And then of course there's artificial intelligence and what large language models have done to the world. And us leveraging those large language models means we can do what we've done for 32 years in a much deeper and faster way.
- [17:39]
Wiley Jones
The specific part you're calling out around having access to the root data and the records for what's occurring, then up connecting that up to the intelligence and then now using language models to access that intelligence in a new way. That hierarchy is really, really, really powerful. Any points on that, Scott? Anything calling out of any initial reactions?
- [18:01]
Scott Lewton
Well, my initial reaction is what's old is new again in so many ways. You know, how can we empower the incredibly talented human factor that makes global global supply chain happen each and every day to make faster, better, more confident decisions using powerful tools like a cargo wise or wherever you get your your help from being able to predict, proactively figure out what the best options are as you're looking to solve problems and protect margin and and ultimately delight your customers. You know, the ability that we're gaining as an industry in part powered by the what Yalls organizations are doing, but better and better to understand on a Monday what your Friday is going to look like for long. It's going to be understanding on a Monday what your Monday from 60 days from now or maybe 160 days from now is going to look like, right? And on top of helping the beautiful human factor make better decisions more and more in many cases been able even to eliminate so many decisions from having to be made. Because we've talked about this here, Wally, I think on the last show maybe or on one of the shows we did, I talk about a lot. It's not necessarily in my experience that one or two really big decisions per day. For a lot of times when I was in supply chain and and certainly now as an entrepreneur, it is like the multitude of constant decisions you've got to make minute by minute. When we can make time slow down and we can eliminate some of those decisions and focus our unique superpowers of our human brains on where human superpowers can bring a lot More value. That's what I'm hearing certainly Zubin talking about here today. And that's clearly WiseTech Global has evolved quite a bit from where they set out 32 years ago.
- [19:47]
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- [20:23]
Wiley Jones
One thing I'm very curious about and wisetech I think has been known for a pretty, I don't know if I would say differentiated, but a unique strategy around acquisition and being able to go in and find these unique and differentiated pockets of subject matter expertise and then bringing that into the company, especially regionally, and then now systematizing that in platforms like Cargowise. How is your organization thinking about systematizing this intelligence as well? Working with large language models to take knowledge of customs and brokerage practices in various regions and integrating that into the platform. How are you thinking about that in this next generation of technology?
- [21:08]
Zubin Apu
You're right in that one of our core strategies, as I was mentioning earlier, really is to put our tentacles and our intelligence and our ability to solve complex problems into every sort of part of logistics and now trade, now that we have E2 open as well to the full supply chain. And yes, we have acquired many companies, nearly 60 companies over the last decade or so across different parts of the supply chain. That includes acquiring regional knowledge specifically for customs authorities or customs filings in different countries. Now, we don't do that because we are acquiring the technology or the product that's interesting to us. But we're a software developer, we're a product company. We know how to build product, we know how to build really quite innovative technology. What we are acquiring is exactly what you said. We're acquiring domain knowledge, we're acquiring expertise, we're acquiring people who know what Belgium customs looks like because that's what they've lived and breathed for, you know, the last 15 years. So we're acquiring that talent and also we're acquiring the intelligence, as you put it, or the data that underpins those systems. And what we can do with AI, when we take all of that data and we take the domain expertise that the people we acquire have, but also our own people have, we can build some of the most powerful systems in the world. Especially now, when you apply the large language models on top, data becomes king, right? Data becomes key to everything we're doing. The only way we can make intelligent decisions here is by applying that LLM layer to that data. The only way we can do that well is by taking all that human expertise and human capital that we have in the business and using that to orchestrate how that data is then turned into actual intelligence. Until we've had LLMs in the world, converting data into insights or into intelligence has been quite difficult and has always been quite surface level. It's never been powerful enough. But we have data for 32 years across now the entire supply chain across 80% of the world's economies. What we can do with that data and what insights we can produce for supply chain participants, but also for governments, also for financial bodies. It's quite a powerful proposition here. We've invested quite heavily over the last year or so into large language models. All of our team use large language models either to enhance their software development skills, their analytical skills, their customer service spacing skills. And what we're seeing is that data that we've collected makes our job much more powerful, makes what we can do much more powerful.
- [23:43]
Wiley Jones
That translates exactly to the way that we've seen our customers using all these products. But really just everything that we're hearing where subject matter, expertise and context collected over long periods of time can be fused together and arbitrated through these language models, the end result, it almost feels like magic.
- [24:04]
Zubin Apu
It's also a massive opportunity here for our customers. Right? When we take the data that we've got and we take the power off these very large LLM model companies that are doing amazing things all around the world, and you couple them together, the ability for us to give solutions to our customers is just accelerated and amplified and we can deliver more powerful solutions. For 32 years, our job has been to make the supply chain more efficient and to make the supply chain more compliant. As in to help forwarders and customs brokers file the correct duties and taxes and quarantine requirements and so on. That hasn't changed. AI doesn't change that. What AI does for us, it means we can do that in a more accelerated and amplified way. We can do that more, we can do that more powerfully, we can do that faster. We can deliver solutions in a way that previously would have taken a year. We can now deliver those solutions in months.
- [24:57]
Scott Lewton
The scale and the velocity of global business and certainly global supply chain, we've got to be able to move at the velocity in a quality manner that you're describing, Zubin.
- [25:07]
Zubin Apu
Right.
- [25:08]
Scott Lewton
We don't have the luxury. You know, think about the old days when I first started. Well, it depends on everyone's definition. In the old days, for me, for me it was 2002 when I started a manufacturer, right? We had faxed orders, you know, sometimes getting back to customers and took a couple of days. That's a luxury now. I mean, now it needs to be, you know, almost instantaneous in many ways. And we're making those fast, high stakes decisions at a scale maybe that the industry hasn't seen up until this point. So we've got to have all those things you, you both have mentioned here. I want to ask you something and you've spoken to this already, Zubin, but I'm going to, I'm going to sharpen the tip on the proverbial pencil here when we talk about what it takes to successfully operationalize AI at big time, portfolio, scale.
- [25:57]
Zubin Apu
Right.
- [25:58]
Scott Lewton
And big time is a highly scientific term. Don't ask me to quantify it. But Zubin, how do you think about, again, you've spoken a little bit to this, but how do you think about embedding AI into core workflows rather than layering it and on the top and kind of a second part is why is AI on top rarely the answer for really deep logistics operations?
- [26:19]
Zubin Apu
Great question, and I think you've answered it well. My strong view here is that AI cannot be a layer on top of an existing system. AI has to be fundamental to how we build product and how we deliver value to the industry. If you think about AI as just a new slice of technology, you're going to miss the mark. You're not going to get to where the industry needs to be. Now cargoise Next, which is the name of our product, has had workflow embedded into that platform for many years, both in the current iteration and in the earlier version called Cargoise 1. And when I say workflow, what I mean is that our system provides standard operating procedures, SOPs for freight forwarders, for brokers, for warehouse operators, for land transport operators, for shipping lines, to configure what they see as their SOP and then follow that sop. Of course there are exceptions. Of course there are automations and edge cases that happen and our workflow engine forks off and deals with those edge cases or helps our customers deal with those edge cases. When you add AI into that level of cargo, astics, into that sort of fundamental architecture layer of our platform and you say, rather than there being 18 tasks on this SOP and 18 tasks done by humans, they 16 of them can now be done by AI agents. An agent that knows how to ingest a document, an agent that knows how to read an invoice, an agent that knows how to go back to the importer or exporter and say, you forgot to upload this document, or I need a clearer version, or you haven't signed this document, or an agent that says, you said you're shipping steel bars. What are they made from? Because we need to know that for customs classification. When we build these very narrow agents that know how to replicate individual parts of the supply chain, our software and our product becomes infinitely more powerful. When you stick AI on top of a product, and there are many companies that build generic AI layers or automation layers. What those products can do is interesting and it's powerful. But all they can really do is automate user interfaces, they can automate keystrokes, they can create data much more rapidly than a human can. They can click on things, they can navigate, but they can't access the underlying data. They can't operate at the business logic or at the architecture layer that we can because we own the source code and we're building cargoise next ourselves. So I think the fundamental lesson here for anyone is that when you are adding AI to a product, you cannot think of it as an add on. You have to think of it as reimagining your entire solution to the market. And how do you become AI first or AI led rather than AI assisted or AI last?
- [28:59]
Scott Lewton
This analogy may not be accurate, Zubin and Wally, and I'll defer to both of you smart technologists, but AI is not a calculator. It's essentially the math.
- [29:09]
Zubin Apu
It's an interesting analogy. It is, it is a whole new way of doing math, might be a way of thinking about it, right? It's a whole new way of solving problems that no one has been able to do before. If you asked anyone three years ago about where they thought AI would be, no one would have predicted it is where it is today. For that same reason, it's impossible for any of us to predict where it will be in six months. And I think that's incredibly exciting. I think the pace of change here and the way it is changing, not just the supply chain, but technology, but education, every single sort of industry in the world, maybe, except physical labor industries. It's a scary thing for many people, and I understand it's going to disrupt many people, but it's also incredibly exciting in what it means for how we deliver powerful solutions across all sectors.
- [29:57]
Scott Lewton
Yeah, and new math is better than new Coke. Let's just level set there, right? Wiley, really quick, I'm about to take the conversation to, you know, deploying AI, that global platform, global enterprise versus single company. Next with Zubin, your quick comment. So on what we were just talking
- [30:12]
Wiley Jones
about, the thing that you're talking about, Zubin, it's funny, this is, these are completely tangential topics. Nothing that normally has to do with this, this show and these conversations, but I had this conversation with our own team for our own development our product exactly the same way, which is that we have to challenge a lot of the fundamental assumptions that have been made about how you build products, how you deliver solutions to customers. Because we've kind of created, I say we as in the world has now kind of created this new form of computing and it's this soft and fuzzy computing where you don't need hard, deterministic, computable answers. You know, traditionally computable answers. Instead, LLMs can have judgment that they apply to just, you know, what normally would be human level decision making. And it's exactly what you said is, you know, the ability to go in and triage documents that come back in. I don't think anyone 10 years ago would have ever said that that would have been possible anytime soon. And so that's been, one thing that's been really, that's stuck out to our team is what fundamental assumptions do we need to challenge as a technology community when we think about delivering solutions for the supply chain, what rocks should we go back and turn over that people have left for a while because we thought the problems couldn't be solved. And then your point around AI on top, the way our team talks about this is someone says, you know, we're AI native, it'd be like someone saying, you know, oh, I'm a native speaker. And they, they pull out their phone and start speaking Spanish and to Google Translate or speaking, you know, to Google Translate and they go, oh yeah, I, I can say that and you know, I can speak Chinese. And then Google Translate reads it back. That's the difference. It's the difference between internally understanding and having a product that internally is able to deliver an intelligent solution versus shipping it off to some other place, grabbing a little bit of intelligence and pulling it back.
- [32:00]
Scott Lewton
Excellent commentary there, Wiley. Maybe that's my next tip. I've tried and tried and tried to learn Spanish and maybe I'm not leaning on technology enough. Wiley And Zuba, we'll cover that maybe next episode, see if I've made any gains. But Zubin, getting back to what we're talking about while we got you here, I'm really curious about your take here. When you're talking about deploying AI at a global platform scale, global enterprises versus a single company, what changes, Zubin? And if you. Second part of this question is how acquisitions like the big one you talk about you made Last year with E2 Open, I think it was last year, how all that strengthens your ability to deliver more and more AI driven successful outcomes. Your thoughts, Zubin?
- [32:45]
Zubin Apu
Yeah, I would actually take it a step back. I would say it's not really about AI here. It's about problem solving. And AI is the current and the most incredible tool in at least our lifetimes that help us solve problems. But the art really here is to solve the most complex problems in the industry and to solve them deeply, to pick the problems that others shy away from, to be very cognizant that customers will express their solution to you. But we as product designers, we as product innovators, it is our job to take what 10 customers say to us and understand the theme there, understand what is the actual underlying problem that they're asking for. Customers will often say, you know, I need you to build a report that does X, or I need a red button here that when I click it, it does Y. That's actually not their job. That's our job. The customer's job is to move freight or to execute logistics. And customers typically will struggle to articulate the actual problem. They'll solve it in their head and give us the solution. And for some years, in our earlier years, we listened to customers deeply and we did exactly what the customer asked. We realized that that ends up solving the problem for one customer and then causing a new problem for customer B. So for 25 plus years now, what we have done is ask why multiple times. We really dig deep through our product management expertise to understand what is the actual fundamental root problem that the customer or the industry is trying to solve. And if customer A has that problem, it probably means the industry has that problem. And we see our role there as sort of people who uphold what the industry needs to solve. There's a very important role and we spend a lot of time digging deep and understanding those problems. The same thing applies with AI. We can throw AI into the product everywhere and say that we're AI native or say that we're an AI native solution. That's not what's going to make us win or solve the industry problems. What's going to work very well is to work closely with industry, to work closely with our partners and with our customers. Customers to understand what are the real pain points here and to spend the right amount of time to solve those pain points deeply. When you look at E2 Open, what that does for us and our other acquisitions, it gives us more domain expertise, so more people who are industry experts. It gives us more data in terms of the different parts of the supply chain that we weren't operating in. And it means we can use the skill We've built over 30 years, our systems thinking approach, our theory of constraints principles that come into everything we do in how we solve problems, to solve bigger problems and to solve them much more deeply than we could ever before.
- [35:28]
Scott Lewton
We've talked about this a lot when this AI centric because as Zubin called it, it's probably the most powerful tool we'll see in our lifetimes. Right? And that's kind of a scary thought, especially when, who knows, at the scale of innovation, you know, five years from now, a whopping five years from now, Right? But all of us are like, okay, how can I solve that with AI? How can I solve that with AI? But I love Zubin's answer, right? Let's focus in on the problem. And I can't remember that quote, who said it, but a problem well defined is a problem half solved. And you know, as silly as it may sound, Wiley, in this, in 2026, yes, we've got solutions that don't require AI, right? And they work great. We got a lot of solutions that do involve AI and they work great, too. But Wiley, your, your quick comments here.
- [36:14]
Wiley Jones
The problem. I'll define problem half solved. What you're describing, Zubin, is the same way that we do product development. And it's almost like you're verbatim saying the words that I say to our team, which is you need to listen deeply to your customers and be very skeptical of the things that they're saying. Not because you think that they're telling you something that isn't true, but because you need to paint it against a broader context that they, they're not aware of. And that integrating the context of customer A, B and C, and therefore, what does it mean for customers D through Z? And therefore what does it mean for the people we don't serve in the broader market? And then the base assumption of is everyone doing this wrong because we haven't actually been able to use a new technology to introduce something completely novel to the earlier point of Scott mentioning around fax machines. We could have used a lot of technology to innovate on fax machines and I think everyone's glad that we haven't. And so recognizing when to engage in optimization, when to disengage and challenge the assumptions, that's I think the big lesson I'm hearing. And it just sounds like, you know, not to be tried about it, but it sounds like just world class product management is really the answer. The best way to deliver great AI solutions is the same way to deliver great solutions has been for the last number of decades. Just is going to require a lot of discipline.
- [37:36]
Scott Lewton
Zubin, your quick comments response to that before I ask you this next question about centralized teams.
- [37:41]
Zubin Apu
Yeah, look, absolutely agree. It is wrong to think of AI as some newfangled thing that you have to put into your product so you can tick a box on your website. AI means we can solve the problems that need solving more deeply, faster, and possibly solve problems that we couldn't solve before. There are some problems that weren't solvable, but they are now solvable because of AI. I would never talk about AI as a new offering that wisetech is doing. Wisetech has for three decades solved efficiency and solved risk. AI means we can do that far greater than we ever could before.
- [38:16]
Scott Lewton
Outstanding. That's exciting, exciting time. It's a great time to be in global supply chain. It's amazing. It's tough to keep up, quite frankly. I'm trying to keep it with two of y' all here today. It's tough enough. Really quick, Zubin, I wish we had a couple more hours here today. I find you, you and Wiley's perspective fascinating. But quick thoughts on the role that centralized AI or data teams play in a business like yours versus deployed teams. Your thoughts, Zubin?
- [38:41]
Zubin Apu
Yeah, look, there are multiple ways to think about this. My view is that AI is a skill that every single person needs to have. This is why humans are so important in this new AI led world. You need humans in the loop to verify, to train, to feedback information, to provide that sort of feedback loop. I'm not an advocate of having a centralized AI team. I'm an advocate of saying you give the AI tools, the AI models, the AI governance frameworks, the guardrails to every single person, whether they're a software developer, a product manager, a CEO, head of communications. Every single person needs to be thinking about how do they augment their skills or how do they accelerate their output by using AI and particularly using LLMs now, you do need teams that manage the different models and decide which models are the ones that you'll make available. But my strong view at this very still early stage of large language models is you need teams to experiment. You need people to have access to all of the models because they're leapfrogging each other every four hours in some cases. And the best model today is the worst model tomorrow.
- [39:49]
Scott Lewton
All right, so Wiley, that'll provoke a few thoughts out there. Where are we going next here with Zubin?
- [39:55]
Wiley Jones
I think that a good segue from this is the experimentation point you made. When we think about experimentation and the customers that we see, there are a lot of hard problems that are desperately in want of acceleration or improvements in efficiency. The larger the surface of the organization, the more of these they can go work on. I How do you think about seeding these experiments inside of a massive global company that, let's be honest, any one of the experiments that you could potentially be running, the bottom of your list is probably really interesting. How are you thinking about that as a leader when there is so much you could do? But you have to focus probably three
- [40:39]
Zubin Apu
things I'll say there. The first is that we've had this unofficial mantra that used to be stuck in the office when I first started in 2004 and it said, reward success, reward failure, punish inaction. I've used that for my entire career and I've said that to every single team and every single part of the business that I've led. I think you have to build a culture where teams are given the freedom to experiment within guardrails and within a time boxed environment. But to experiment and to try things and to be allowed to fail and not punished, in fact rewarded for trying, that's how you innovate. If you expect teams to be perfect every single time, they won't ever take a risk, they won't ever take a gamble, and they're never going to innovate. That's part one. The second part is what AI has done and what LLMs have done. And I read the quote the other day, it said, if the time to build is now, quicker than the time to plan, why plan now? I'm not suggesting you don't plan at all, but with AI, you can experiment on things that previously would have taken six months to get to a point where you could make a decision. You can now do that in days or sometimes even hours. So if you can experiment that rapidly, it gives us more ability to try these things and to decide, are these the Right paths forward. Are these the problems that we really want to solve? And the last slice of that is we are a sort of a leader in understanding the problems that the industry face. So yes, we have a long menu list of problems to solve, but we also have, because of our deep domain expertise, we have a good understanding of the value each of those problems or each of those solutions will deliver to market. So we can prioritize based on that value and based on what I call big rocks, We've got a roadmap for the next couple of years. We know what the big rocks are that the industry needs solving and what we feel we need to solve. And we'll execute on that strategy as we have for 32 years of our history.
- [42:32]
Wiley Jones
That's amazing. We say, what are the big boulders we need to move ourselves for our customers? It's like if we have that big list of boulders, we know pretty clearly what we want to focus on. That's brilliant. One thing that you called out, the way that experimentation and plant go hand in hand and if the time to discuss the experiment is longer than the experiment, maybe let's run the experiment. I think the point you brought up earlier in the discussion is the capabilities of these systems. We should be reevaluating how they function every, let's call it six to 12 months. If we're re underwriting those capabilities and we actually can see that those experiments, what maybe would have been really hard to run today, we think it's actually going to be really easy to run in six months or vice versa. The ability to consider that and constantly be reevaluating, I think is going to be really, really important. Something that we've seen boulders six months ago are no longer boulders, but they're smaller pebbles now.
- [43:35]
Scott Lewton
That's right.
- [43:36]
Wiley Jones
So, Zubin, I think the thing that I'm really interested in hearing more about is especially at a really large company where the business itself can be viewed as almost this machine and factory of producing solutions for customers. There's a component of applying your own resources to making your own machine run better and especially using technology to do this. And then there's another piece which is building the solutions for the customers themselves. How do you think about resourcing, making yourself and making the organization better? Resourcing, specifically solution A and solution B for customer A and customer B. And sometimes, you know, what is it? The clean as you cook mentality. And can we do a little bit of both here and there? How do you think about that? And you know, is it boulder by boulder or is it more periods of time? What, what's your broader view?
- [44:28]
Zubin Apu
It is really both of those things. It is focusing on growth of the business and we do that by delivering incredible value to our customers and it's focusing on efficiency inside the business. And you're right, AI and LLMs give us opportunities that simply were not present even three or four months ago. I, I don't really think about it as two separate things though. I think about it as doing both at the same time. When we're building solutions for customers, how can we do that more efficiently? When we're building a new product, how can we embed LLMs and AI into our processes, but also into the product so that we can build it in a quarter of the time with higher quality and release it to market and innovate and get feedback in a much tighter feedback loop? If you try and separate the two, if you try and say this half of the business focuses on efficiency and this half focuses on growth or on customer value proposition, you end up in this kind of weird conflict in my mind. And I've seen that happen in other businesses. I strongly feel it's just like when someone's learning AI, you can't ask someone, go and spend your Monday, Tuesday to go and learn AI and your Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, do your normal job and produce value for customers. It's do your job, but figure out how to embed AI into your job at every single step and you will end up accelerating yourself significantly and know winning.
- [45:48]
Scott Lewton
Zubin, I love that. And as I mentioned, I wish we had a couple more hours with you and W because you, you both are unleashing the enterprise here in this conversation and with what you do day in and day out. But that means we're going to have to have you back, Zubin. But I got a couple of final questions before we wrap here today and then we're going to get W's favorite parts from Zubin's perspective here today. I know I've got a couple of Ernie early winners that I've written down in my 18 pages of notes here, but Zubin, a couple final questions for you. Number one, what would be your final advice for those supply chain leaders and the teams and the operators out there out organizations around the world that are starting or leading AI transformation today? Based on all that you've learned, what would be your actual advice here today?
- [46:35]
Zubin Apu
Look, my advice would be that it is incorrect to still be skeptical or cynical about the value that LLMs are going to bring to the world and the value they are bringing to every single industry. Industry, companies, individuals, kids, through school, you all have to lean in heavily into this world. This is the biggest transformation, at least off, you know, my lifetime so far, and I think possibly our lifetimes at all. It's something we have to lean into. It's something we have to think about how it changes businesses, how it changes the way we've done things for a hundred years. This is the chance to reimagine those workflows. And it has to be in a way where we become AI first or AI led, not just use it to write your emails better or do a bit of research.
- [47:23]
Scott Lewton
So I got to ask you, with that in mind, that great piece of advice in mind over your left hand shoulder, I think that's your left hand shoulder. You've got either nieces, nephews, or maybe it's your children. Are any of those going to be fellow transformational leaders that really make a big impact on industry?
- [47:40]
Zubin Apu
Look, it's a great question. That picture on my left there is my son who is now 17 and going through his final year of high school. But my second son, Ryland, he's 15. He actually spent a week at Wisetech last week doing what we call work experience here, where in year 10 they spend a week. And he is fascinated by software development. I think software development has changed entirely because of AI. But that doesn't diminish the importance of that skill. Knowing how to innovate, knowing how to disrupt, how to build solutions that really disrupt whatever industry he ends up working in. Innovation, that's a really critical skill. And AI doesn't displace that. AI enhances that or accelerates that. So hopefully he will be, I'm thinking
- [48:24]
Scott Lewton
very practically, optimistically that he may already be one, a transformational leader. Hey, really quick, how can folks connect with you and the wisetech team and all that you are doing and changing and leading? How can folks do that?
- [48:40]
Zubin Apu
Look. Www.wisetechglobal.com is our website. Also www.cargowise.com is our website for our main product. E2open.com will show you our trade products and of course your listeners. Always happy to be connected directly on LinkedIn and have these sort of fascinating conversations about AI, about technology and what's happening in the supply chain.
- [49:02]
Scott Lewton
Really appreciate that. I tell you, Zubin, I'd be here all day if I told you some of my favorite parts of what you and W have shared. But Wiley, mine, and again, arguable, but reward success, reward failure, punish inaction. That really speaks to Me. And I can feel that in my bones. But Wy, you get a tough one, you get a tough question. What is your favorite key takeaway from all that Zubin Apu shared with us here today?
- [49:27]
Wiley Jones
I think that there's a clear winner on this one, which is that here you have Zubin, who is basically seen from start to finish the build of the most important infrastructure company in all of logistics. And he is saying that more important than any other thing he's ever worked on, technology wise, we are seeing the most important transformation is yet to come that is really, I don't want to say crazy. That's big. And what that makes me think is that there's even more opportunity than there's ever been before. And so it's exciting. I'm optimistic. It's really easy to be pessimistic right now whenever you see certain things in the news. And I think there's not enough optimism and what is, of what is yet to come.
- [50:16]
Scott Lewton
And you're right, there's a lot of, there's a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of friction out there based on where we are as a world today. But you look still deeper, there's always good news if you take the time, go looking. And it really is amazing the innovation we're seeing between people and technology across global business today, and that this conversation has been full of that. So I really appreciate that. All right, before we thank everybody and get out of here, Zubin, you got to come this side of the table because we got to ask Wiley about some big news he had this week. So Zubin, your honorary co host now. Okay, so Wiley Jones, what's the big news at dos?
- [50:54]
Wiley Jones
So, yeah, we announced a big fundraiser that we had. We did the fundraise back in the fall and we've really used it to push into, I would say, a broader set of solutions for our existing customers, growing our team, being able to expand our offerings. We're still in the early days of what Zubin was talking about, you know, the, the early stage of when he was working at Wise Tech. You know, hopefully 20 years from now we can, I can be saying a lot of the same things about dos, providing infrastructure, but into, you know, more
- [51:24]
Scott Lewton
of the ERP category, exciting times. And Zubin, do you remember, because you're telling us about it, you remember those critical moments 20 some odd years ago. Is that. I have that about right, Zubin?
- [51:38]
Zubin Apu
Correct? That's about right. I mean, I remember the, the very early days of Wise Tech. We were called edi back then. But the, the experimentation, the innovation, the culture of solving some of the most complex problems in the world that's led us to our success. And those are the same fundamental cultural traits that we have today. Love that.
- [52:00]
Scott Lewton
Okay, we're going to have to have Zubin Apu back with us here today, but I want to thank Zubin Apu, CEO with WiseTech Global. Folks, you can learn more at wisetechglobal.com Zubin, thank you so much for joining us here today.
- [52:14]
Zubin Apu
Pleasure. It was fantastic to be here and great to talk to you and to your listeners.
- [52:17]
Scott Lewton
You bet. We're gonna have you back. We gotta go through your agent, your rock and roll agent. You're in demand, Zubin Apu. Also, big thanks as always to Wiley Jones and the DOS team on the move. Wiley, you got a bunch of big fans here, you know, and we celebrate with you on the news and the continued movement y' all make as a team, folks. You can learn more@dos.com But Wally, thanks so much.
- [52:37]
Wiley Jones
Of course. Thanks for having me on, Scott.
- [52:39]
Scott Lewton
You bet. And folks, stick around. Enterprise unleashed. We got lots, lots more to come as we get deeper into the 2026. Of course, big thanks to our global audience. Y' all keep the feedback coming. Feedback is a blessing. Even on those tough days, feedback still a blessing. You are our North Star and it God's all that we do here. So y' all keep it up. But you know, at the same time, you got homework today and Zubin and Wiley brought it. Lots of actual perspective, lots of leadership lessons, lots of technology lessons, lots of what I'll call interesting perspective on, on how they view industry and where we are and where we're headed. You got to take one thing that you are here today from Zubin or wy, share it with your team, do something with it. Deeds, not words, right? That's how we're going to continue to fuel global transformation and leave no one behind. Exciting times ahead. So with all that said, on behalf of Wiley and the DOS team on, on behalf of the Supply Chain out team, Scott Luton. Challenging you. Do good, give forward, be the change that's needed. And we'll see you next time right back here at Supply Chain Now. Thanks, buddy.
- [53:44]
Supply Chain Now Host
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