Reverse Logistics in the Spotlight: Innovators Turning Returns Into Revenue

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Supply Chain Now

Episode: "Reverse Logistics in the Spotlight: Innovators Turning Returns Into Revenue"

Date: October 8, 2025
Host: Scott Lewton
Guests: Sean Cleland (B. Stock), Rich Bulger (All Things Circular)

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Overview

This episode of Supply Chain Now features conversations recorded at the 2025 Reverse Logistics Association (RLA) Leadership Summit in Dallas, TX. Host Scott Lewton interviews two leading innovators: Sean Cleland, VP of Mobility and Asset Recovery at B. Stock, and Rich Bulger, Founder and Chief Circularity Officer at All Things Circular. The discussion dives deep into the innovations transforming reverse logistics—including technology, AI, and data analytics—and examines a paradigm shift viewing returns not just as cost centers but as significant revenue opportunities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Innovation in Reverse Logistics and Returns Management

Guest: Sean Cleland (B. Stock)

• B. Stock’s Model Explained
  • B. Stock is a platform enabling retailers, brands, and manufacturers to efficiently move excess or returned inventory into secondary B2B markets through auctions or bulk sales. Data from transactions informs smarter, more strategic programs.

    “Retailers... use our platform to decide how to sell [inventory], where should it sell, in what quantity... and then we use all that data to make really smart decisions…” — Sean Cleland [03:05]

• AI’s Transformative Role
  • AI-driven tools now predict inventory value, inform insurance and warranty offerings, optimize resale, and drive contract negotiations around returns—making the process more strategic than ever.

    “Now we’re using AI to inform decisions far more forward in the supply chain... predicting secondary market values, having better offers for insurance and warranty…” — Sean Cleland [04:27]

• Reverse Planning Trends
  • Economic pressures have pushed finance organizations to scrutinize every business area, bringing more collaboration and innovation into reverse logistics, historically a “shadow” part of the business.

    “...the flashlight goes on reverse which is normally kind of in the shadows. So right now... much more collaboration than in a typical period.” — Sean Cleland [07:30]

• Strategic Shift in Approach to Returned Inventory
  • Customers are no longer only asking ‘what can you get me for this item?’ but ‘what should I do with this inventory?’—a sign of maturity and strategic thinking in reverse logistics.

    “It’s becoming a more strategic question rather than the tactical ‘gimme, gimme, gimme.’” — Sean Cleland [09:20]

Timestamps

• B. Stock’s purpose and impact: [03:05–04:01]
• Rise of AI and data-informed decision-making: [04:27–05:15]
• Retailers’ shift from mere resale to proactive planning: [05:48–06:55], [08:36–10:44]

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2. The Rising Value of Circularity and “More Returns”

Guest: Rich Bulger (All Things Circular)

• Personal and Professional Journey
  • Bulger shares how personal adversity (bullying, martial arts) shaped his resilience and discipline, which has translated into his professional ventures (Verizon, Cisco, author, founder).

    “Martial arts gave me a discipline to go through and prepare for the military... It taught me how to control myself. In the end, that really is the only thing you can control.” — Rich Bulger [16:54]

• Redefining Returns as Revenue Opportunities
  • The standard thinking has long been ‘drive returns down.’ Bulger argues that in circular business models, returns can and should be driven up as a revenue source (e.g., trade-ins, buy-backs, product-as-a-service).

    “In a circular economy... you’re actually trying to compel returns up... returns now are a revenue center as well.” — Rich Bulger [20:23]

• Education Gap in Reverse Logistics
  • There is a striking lack of formal education for reverse logistics, contrasting with more mature supply chain programs. Most practitioners learn ‘in the deep end.’

    “It’s the most complicated part of the supply chain, and there’s no education on it.” — Rich Bulger [27:16] “Of over 400 people, [I’ve asked how many were] formally trained in reverse logistics—just one. And they were the instructor!” — Rich Bulger [33:59]

• All Things Circular: Ecosystem Approach
  • Building education, resources (book, glossary, whitepapers, podcasts), and community to foster best practices and innovation in circularity.
• Massive Industry Impact
  • The U.S. sees $890bn worth of unwanted returns (2024), up from $350bn pre-COVID; the secondary market is now $800bn+, meaning 30% of the $5.2tr U.S. retail economy flows through reverse—yet few are trained to manage it.

    “1.6 trillion of a $5.2 trillion industry—30% flows through reverse logistics, and no one knows how to do it.” — Rich Bulger [35:51]

Timestamps

• The call for education and new thinking: [17:53–22:40]; [27:16–29:06]; [33:19–33:59]
• Pivoting mindset about returns: [19:23–21:12]; [38:24–38:53]
• Industry stats and impact: [35:51–37:57]
• All Things Circular’s mission and offerings: [41:05–41:55]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Shifting Industry Mindset:

  “Now the question coming to us isn’t what do I get for blank? It’s what should I do with this stuff? …It’s becoming a more strategic question.”
  — Sean Cleland [09:20]

• On Industry Education:

  “Of over 400 people, [I’ve asked how many were] formally trained in reverse logistics—just one. And they were the instructor!”
  — Rich Bulger [33:59]

• On Returns as Opportunity:

  “There’s some returns you want to drive down. But now in the circular programs, you want to drive some returns up. It’s what I do every day.”
  — Rich Bulger [20:23]

• Industry Stats Wake-up Call:

  “1.6 trillion of a $5.2 trillion industry—30% flows through reverse logistics, and no one knows how to do it.”
  — Rich Bulger [35:51]

• On the Mission of All Things Circular:

  “What All Things Circular is designed to do is create a space for a conversation…”
  — Rich Bulger [17:53]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• B. Stock’s Approach to Reverse Logistics & Tech [03:05–05:15]
• AI & Data Impact on Reverse Management [04:27–05:15]
• Trends in Retailer Reverse Planning [05:48–06:55]
• Strategic Shift in Reverse [08:36–09:20]
• Shifting to Circular Revenue Models [19:23–21:12]
• Industry Education Gap [27:16–29:06], [33:19–33:59]
• Massive Industry Stats [35:51–37:57]
• All Things Circular Community & Offerings [41:05–41:55]

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Call to Action & Community Engagement

• Practitioner Challenge:
  Rich Bulger invites listeners to suggest topics, concepts, or challenges they want addressed in the upcoming “Leaders’ Guide” edition of his book.

  “If you have thoughts and ideas, things you wish you could say to the CEO of your company about what you do... let me know and I’ll put it in the leader book.”
  — Rich Bulger [42:27]

• Get Connected:

  • Sean Cleland: Find him on LinkedIn or via B. Stock’s website.
  • Rich Bulger & Team: Visit allthingscircular.com for resources, podcasts, and training. LinkedIn is his "safe space” for networking.

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Tone & Style

The episode is friendly, conversational, and deeply insightful, blending personal anecdotes with industry analysis. Both guests emphasize the need for community, education, and a fundamental rethinking of reverse logistics—as not just a cost to minimize but a revenue and sustainability engine for businesses.

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Summary Takeaways

• Reverse logistics is rapidly evolving due to AI, proactive data use, and innovative business models.
• Industry leaders urge a shift from viewing returns as losses to welcoming certain returns as part of circular, value-generating economies.
• There is a pressing education gap—most reverse logistics professionals are self-taught or learn on the job.
• The scale of returns and resale now occupies a massive share of the retail economy, warranting much greater strategic attention.
• All Things Circular is pioneering education, community, and thought leadership in this under-served but critical field.
• Practitioners are invited to participate in shaping its future—especially around training and executive-level communication.

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For listeners new to supply chain and reverse logistics, this episode offers an engaging primer on where the industry is heading—and how professionals are turning yesterday's afterthoughts into tomorrow's competitive advantages.

Transcript

[Scott Lewton]

Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you may be. Folks, Scott Lewton with you here on Supply Chain now. Hey, we have got a special episode teed up here today as I captured a few interesting conversations from my visit to a private leadership conference held by Tony Shirota and the Reverse Logistics Association a couple weeks ago in Dallas. Now, on this episode, we feature a conversation with Sean Cleland from B. Stock, who's doing some really cool, innovative things in the reverse world. In fact, I'd argue that they were an early mover here in the modern reverse in return space. I also catch up with my good friend Rich Bulger, who has done some really big things in industry and continues to do so via his company, All Things Circular. Rich is going to be offering up the counterintuitive perspective of why we need more returns. Interesting. Interesting. Hey, stay tuned as we learn more from Sean and Rich. And here we go.

[Supply Chain Now Host/Announcer]

Welcome to Supply Chain now, the number one voice of Supply Chain. Join us as we share critical news, key insights, and real supply Chain leadership from across the globe, one conversation at a time.

[Scott Lewton]

Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you may be. Scott Lewton back with you here on Supply Chain Now. Welcome to today's show, folks. I'm conducting interviews here at the Reverse Logistics Association Leadership Summit 2025 here in Dallas Fort Worth, the Los Colinas area, if I've got that right. My first time here. Well, hey, folks, here it's the center of the universe for all things reverse, at least this week. And I'm here with my newest best friend, Sean Cleland, vice president of mobility and Asset recovery with B. Stock. Sean, how are you doing?

[Rich Bulger]

Very good.

[Sean Cleland]

Thank you for having me.

[Scott Lewton]

Great to see you. Same to you. V. Stock's been on the move for years now.

[Sean Cleland]

Yeah. Almost feels old, man.

[Scott Lewton]

Growth and success. When it starts feeling old, it means you're making progress.

[Rich Bulger]

That's correct.

[Scott Lewton]

All right, so let's do this. We're going to get into some good stuff on reverse and tech and more. But I want to start with one area where you spend some of your free time, and that's in general building stuff, which I love.

[Sean Cleland]

Right.

[Scott Lewton]

But in particular, me and my son are both big video game nerds. And you build video game systems? Amongst other things. Tell me more about that.

[Sean Cleland]

Yeah, I don't sit still. Still. Well, so in the free time, I will build arcade cabinets for friends, give them away for their, you know, basements and lake houses. But of course, I'm selfish and building.

[Rich Bulger]

For myself as well now.

[Scott Lewton]

And you and Your daughter do it together.

[Sean Cleland]

That's right, my daughter. I need to teach her how to use tools and not let anything stand her way. We do a lot of research with it and I'm a bit of a bad father because she's 11 and we're already playing Mortal Kombat together. So I'm sure that's the best.

[Scott Lewton]

But.

[Sean Cleland]

But it's our thing.

[Rich Bulger]

I love it.

[Scott Lewton]

Okay. We could do a whole podcast series on that. And we're going to bring you back, Sean to do that.

[Sean Cleland]

Do it.

[Scott Lewton]

All right. So for the folks that may have missed my earlier sit downs, I mean, going back probably four or five years with the innovative BSTOCK team, what does B stock do in a nutshell?

[Sean Cleland]

So Bear is a platform that retailers, brands, mobile phone carriers, processors, manufacturers, you name it, companies that have inventory that they need to sell business to business into the secondary market. They're using our platform to decide how to sell it, where should it sell, in what quantity, and then they use our transactional component to either auction it or move contracts or sell it as big bulk buy it now, inventory out to buyers all over the world and then we use all that data to make really smart decisions and help run other programs for those companies.

[Scott Lewton]

I love that. Amongst many other things, helping the power more successful.

[Sean Cleland]

That's right.

[Scott Lewton]

Re economy.

[Sean Cleland]

That's right. Get as much recovery, asset recovery value, whatever you want to call it, but then also inform programs so they can make better decisions with that inventory as well. Love it.

[Scott Lewton]

Okay, so we're going to come back to the reverse space. But you mobile tech. Mobile tech is on your plate every day, all day, all day. And it's fascinating to see this mobile tech space and the velocity it's moving at and all the cool things we can do with this device I'm pointing at right here on our table. Amongst that tidal wave of innovation, what's one thing that really sticks out from this mobile tech evolutionary period we're in?

[Sean Cleland]

Yeah, so mobile is really kind of the market leader. Whatever we do in the cell phone and high end consumer electronic space, everybody basically follows. The big change now is we're in this era of robotic processing, but now we're using AI to inform decisions far more forward in the supply chain. So the data in resale across all kinds of channels is impacting trade in values. Now you're predicting secondary market values. You're having better offers for insurance and warranty coverage. You've got better contracts that retailers are making on the merchant side, renegotiating return to vendor rights because they know AI is informing what something may be worth down the road. So very, very interesting change it is.

[Scott Lewton]

And a lot of those things are also empowering the consumer. No doubt find better deals and find extra deals coming and going not just on what they're acquiring, but what they're looking to offload and for sale.

[Sean Cleland]

Right, for sure.

[Scott Lewton]

Okay, so now let's bring it back to the reverse and returns of managed space. Because we are in center of the universe for all things reverse here at least this week. If you had to pinpoint one or two topics amongst the reverse and returns management space that's really intriguing to you right now, what would that be?

[Sean Cleland]

I like coming to an event like this because I want to understand what's happening outside of the categories that I play in every day. What are the large retailers doing differently this year than they did last year? What are brands thinking about? You know, everyone kind of runs to I gotta sell everything direct to consumer. I've got to be, you know, do.

[Scott Lewton]

This, this and this.

[Sean Cleland]

But I think we're getting a little bit past that and thinking more strategically about, gosh, we're getting returns. What's the best thing to do with that? I've been kind of fascinated with the evolution that Best Buy has been taking with their Best Buy outlet stores and positioning more and more returned and refurbished and pre owned for consumers. So what other retailers are going to follow? That's what I like to hone in on.

[Scott Lewton]

Sean, I love what you heard there because that broader perspective is so important as we look to conduct market intel best practice and innovative new practice exchange amongst the different sectors, let's face it, reverse who isn't impacted. And some sectors are well down the path. One last thing that you respond to. Reverse planning. Exciting time.

[Sean Cleland]

Yeah. The amount of planning that goes into reverse. I think like merchants and those that are in the logistics and supply chain and things like that, they're tighter than they've been before.

[Scott Lewton]

Yes.

[Sean Cleland]

Because I don't necessarily think because they want to be. I think it's a lot of times driven by the financial orgs in these big companies.

[Scott Lewton]

Right.

[Sean Cleland]

The eyeballs are on every part of the business right now because consumer spending is tight. Anytime the market gets tight, the finance guys at these big companies start looking into every pocket of the business and.

[Scott Lewton]

Every lever is being pulled.

[Rich Bulger]

That's right.

[Sean Cleland]

And inevitably the flashlight goes on reverse which is normally kind of in the shadows. So right now we're seeing, I see much more collaboration than a typical period because the flashlight is all on reverse.

[Scott Lewton]

Love it. A lot of folks can hear your response there and hear a lot of the microscopic, okay, where can we find efficiencies? But what I hear is when innovation can really be cross functional and across enterprise, man, we can have some really powerful eureka moments that not just leads companies forward in new chapters, but the industry.

[Sean Cleland]

That's right.

[Scott Lewton]

And that's really where I'm going to ask you in a second about the RLA and the Leadership Summit, because I really see their role in all of that pushing industry forward. But one more thing I want to circle back in on is you touched on this earlier, but data and AI transforming how companies are handling their reverse processes, especially resale. I want to, I want to spike the football again on that because you called out, I think Best Buy, they're doing some really cool things. Is there a practical example may come to your mind that we can challenge.

[Rich Bulger]

Some of our listeners with?

[Scott Lewton]

For sure.

[Sean Cleland]

B stock historically was asked the question, hey, what can you get me for blank? That was always the question to us, like, what is this worth? What is the percentage I would get for this category? It was very tactical, very narrow questions that they would ask of us. And because there's more data and I think even the little AI tools that are just increasing people's work productivity, they're asking bigger questions now. And now the question coming to us isn't what do I get for blank? It's what should I do with this stuff? What should I do with the inventory in this facility? It's becoming a more strategic question rather than the tactical gimme, gimme, gimme.

[Scott Lewton]

Yes, more proactive, less reactive. Totally. And if we can keep making gains there, it's really cool to see how far the reverse and return space has come. But we've got so much more heavy lifting to do. And to your point, if we can do more proactive planning and finding wins for all parties and we can keep diverting more and more from our landfills, man. Yeah, we got some even bigger days ahead. So let's do this. We're here at the RLA Leadership Summit 2025, folks. You can hear the energy, the tunes, the preparation. We're in the thick of everything. Yes, but what is one topic that you're looking forward to either in the sessions or the sidebars or you name it.

[Sean Cleland]

Sean, I'm kind of really looking forward to hear how the folks attending the show, specifically retailers and brands, I kind of view them moving more toward insourcing because there's more tools out there than there were before. It's less about I'm going to dump all my stuff in a warehouse and let someone else figure it out. I'm seeing a trend of insourcing and then using software and intel to make decisions about what to do with that inventory. We're seeing a blend of both physical and digital coming together to make something a little more productive for these folks. Getting more budget, which is great.

[Scott Lewton]

It is great. And finding more success. And B Stock probably is helping folks find more and more innovative options, I guess.

[Sean Cleland]

Absolutely. Like, like I said, the question has changed from what can you get me for blank and how do I use data to run this? So we're becoming much more the platform that helps them drive that business rather than a storefront to sell inventory.

[Scott Lewton]

Outstanding. And as I mentioned on the front end, I think at my very first RLA annual event, that's not what this is. This is more of a kind of a private leadership event. But at my very first annual conference in Vegas, I did 57 interviews and I met several folks from B Stock. They were doing great things then. Then five years later, six years later, whatever it's been, you and the rest of the B Stock team keep pushing the needle of what can be done and I admire that. We need more of it. So, Sean Cleland, Vice President, Mobility and Asset Recovery with B Stock. How can folks track you down? Sean, you can find me on LinkedIn.

[Sean Cleland]

I am very easy to find there. My email as being one of the old school B Stock people is very simple. It's just Sean Stock couldn't get simpler than that.

[Scott Lewton]

It's just that easy. All right, Sean Cleland with bstock. Pleasure to have you here. We'll be back in touch soon. Hey folks, I'm continuing my interviews here at the Reverse Logistics Association Leadership Summit 2025 here in beautiful Dallas Fort Worth, the Metroplex. It's the center of the universe for all things Reverse. At least this week. Although we're going to talk about why I might not say that we can.

[Rich Bulger]

Use All Things Circular.

[Scott Lewton]

All the so you're already hearing from our esteemed guest on this conversation because I'm here with Rich Bolger, founder and Chief Circularity Officer with All Things Circular. Rich, how you doing?

[Rich Bulger]

That was a fast plug. I am doing great. I can't believe we get to have conversations like this again. Thanks for the invitation.

[Scott Lewton]

Oh, it's great. I'm gonna get to your fun warm up question in just a second. But we met six years ago now because I think it was 2019 in Vegas at the annual conference where your top three out of probably 36 interviews we conducted over, like, two days. By the time we wrapped up the last one, I couldn't even say my last name right. And my team gives me a hard time about that still to this day. But anyway, Rich, great to have you. You keep moving mountains, and I can't wait to dive into the cool things you're doing now.

[Rich Bulger]

Well, thank you very much. I feel like Forrest Gump. Since then, I've worn lots of shoes, but now we're talking all things circular.

[Scott Lewton]

We are. And we're going to get into exactly what we mean by that. I want to start with this one thing we talked about in the pre show, so to speak. I thought I knew Rich Bulger, but I don't. Because you're like a black belt or something in Taekwondo. Yes. Is that right? Yeah.

[Rich Bulger]

I've been doing martial arts most of my life. Three story childhood, divorce. I got bullied a lot in middle school, high school, that this tooth knocked out my third day of my third high school my freshman year. And after that, I decided I didn't want people to hit me anymore. Wow. So I started doing wrestling to get grappling. I started doing martial art, taekwondo for striking. I had really bad eyesight. I couldn't play baseball or football because I couldn't see the ball. But if you were close enough to hit me, I could see you. And I just wound up really excelling in the combat sports. The martial arts gave me a discipline to go through and, and prepare for the military. I spent three years in the military, rose to the ranks, and I wound up entering in the military. When I was a brown belt. Military happened. I went to work. Before I knew it, I was 31 years old and I had kids and I wanted my kids to grow up through martial arts. And I was doing a keynote speech at my high school on Veterans Day. I ran into my old martial art instructor.

[Scott Lewton]

Okay.

[Rich Bulger]

At that. I hadn't seen him.

[Scott Lewton]

I'm test you and see if you've continued your training.

[Rich Bulger]

He challenged me the same way good teachers do. And at that point, I was finishing up my four year degree and we talked about that. He's like, rich, I don't know many people that are glad they didn't finish college. I'm like, yeah, there's an occasional Steve Jobs, but he's like, rich, I've been teaching martial arts now for about 20 years, and I have never met one student, not one that has ever said they're glad they stopped taking martial Arts before they got their black belt. Wow.

[Scott Lewton]

Oh my God.

[Rich Bulger]

And I'm like, oh, that, that hurts. I said, I'm not, I'm not as young, I'm not as flexible as I used to be. He goes, how long has it been? I'm like 10 years. He's like, yeah, it's a long time. He goes out, let me ask you another question. Where are you going to be in the next 10 years if you don't start doing something about it right now? And I'm like, oh, that's the second thing that you said. That that makes sense. So when I left that speech, flew back home, my wife picked me up and there was a flyer in her car for an American Taekwondo school that opened up right down the street.

[Scott Lewton]

Yeah.

[Rich Bulger]

And at that point I was doing nine round boxing, kickboxing for cardio. Wow. And I wound up signing back up, finished my black belt. I wound up competing a lot. And I competed a lot when I was younger. But I went to qualify for the world championship for American Taekwondo. Okay. You have to fight all year long, do tournaments and get points. And I went and I did one world championship and I lost. I got scared when I was in the ring. I knew it, I felt it. You know, you're in there with the top 10 people in the US and four from all over the world. So it's a pretty intimidating ring to begin with. And I'm in the 30 or 40 year old men, first degree black belt. Not the most challenging division, but I remembered that experience. Yeah. And I trained all next year and I went back and I won the following year. So I've been doing competitive martial arts the majority of my life. I've shifted from wrestling to a little bit of jiu jitsu. And I learned that what is illegal in wrestling is what you do in jiu jitsu. I'm 47 years old now, can still kick over my head and I'm just trying to, trying to fight age the best I can.

[Scott Lewton]

I love it, man. I didn't know that. I knew lots about your journey, but that was a chapter I must have skipped over. And next podcast interview we have, we're going to get a demonstration. Kidding aside, that's remarkable. And your why for getting into that, I think a lot of folks, it probably resonates with a lot of folks out there. The whole bullying thing, it seems like that's one thing that with all the transparency and communications and just where the state of school is, it seems like we would have made more Progress here in 2025 on those challenges. But I can tell you firsthand and secondhand and thirdhand, we've got a lot more work to do.

[Rich Bulger]

Kids are still kids. Yeah, kids. Still kids. You never understand why people lash out. There's always more than what you can see behind the surface. And what I loved about the martial arts is it taught me how to control myself.

[Scott Lewton]

Right.

[Rich Bulger]

So. And how I responded to different things. And in the end, that really is the only thing you can control.

[Scott Lewton]

That's right. We got to maximize what's within our control, for sure. All right, so that's a great segue. We've sat down with you during various times of your journey when you first met. You're doing really cool things at Cisco, one of the most admired companies in the world. Fast forward a couple years, you're working on a book that we're going to talk about in a second, which has received tons and tons of acclaim. And now we're sitting down and you and your team and All Things Circular have got. You've launched a brand new. I wouldn't call it a new mission, but a reinvigorated mission. So tell us, for the three people out there that hadn't gotten the good news just yet, what do you and the team do at All Things Circular?

[Rich Bulger]

So what All Things Circular is designed to do is create a space for a conversation. It started with the book that I wrote going Circular the Evolution of Reverse Logistics into a Competitive Weapon. And that book was written because there is no real training for reverse logistics that exists in our industry. When I was a student at the American Public University, the only college on the planet that I found that had even a course on reverse on the advisory board of the rla. And I wanted to see if there was a place that I could go and get training for my team. Selfishly, I wanted to go and see if there was people I could recruit, because if people even know what reverse logistics is, it's a bonus. And I thought it was just a responsible thing for a board member to do is vet the training that we endorsed through our board level meetings. The book that they use was written in 1999. The curriculum was developed in 2013 from research done in the late 90s, early 2000s. And I'm taking this program in 2022, 2023 and in 1999. There's a lot of things that have changed since. Circular economy didn't become a word until 2013, when Ellen MacArthur made it one. Part of what I've done in my career is I started Verizon's first retail trade in program.

[Scott Lewton]

That's right.

[Rich Bulger]

With the desire to buy devices back, put money in a customer's pocket and sell it for more. And really the residual value, I wanted to be a form of currency that they could use to set us apart from the competition. And I grew that to a $1.6 billion revenue stream at Verizon.

[Scott Lewton]

Wow. $1.6 billion revenue stream.

[Rich Bulger]

And everyone thought it was crazy to go through and buy devices from a cell phone company. I was told it was spelled S E L L, not a biphone company. It worked. And what I found running Verizon's reverse logistics and then the monetization, and then going through and running Cisco's global reverse logistics, and then being the CEO of a company, I helped grow revenues from 27 million to 116. Matching used supply with used demand is. There was a lot more in the center of the Venn diagram between brands and distributors, between one product category and another. Right. And we all had the same problem. There's no education. So when I wrote the update to the book going circular, this is a funny story too. I had a professor that started giving me Cs on assignments about seven classes in. I'm on the advisory board, Cisco's winning Gartner supply chain Awards, built billion dollar programs. And this professor starts giving me Cs because in the book going backwards, all returns are bad. And you want to drive them down.

[Scott Lewton]

Right.

[Rich Bulger]

In a circular economy, there's circular sales programs. Lease product as a service trade in that you're actually trying to compel returns up. Yeah. So when I'm talking about driving returns up, see, you're not getting the concept. You got to drive returns down. Returns are a cost. But returns now are a revenue center as well. Yes. A few weeks in, I finally have a meeting with this professor, and he's like, rich, you're not learning. You don't care to embrace the material. I'm like, there's some returns you want to drive down. But now in the circular programs, you want to drive some returns up. It's what I do every day. Yep, Rich, you can't talk about it unless it's written in a book. I'm like, we should write a new book. Me trying to be helpful. Hey, let's go through and write one.

[Scott Lewton]

So it was like a rhetorical conversation that led to a real book getting written.

[Rich Bulger]

So when he told me that I couldn't write a book because I wasn't a professor, Michael, now I'm going to Write a book. So I wrote a book. The Reverse Logistics association stood behind it. Glenn Ritchie from Auburn was my academic sponsor. 350 pages, 35 page glossary of terms. It's what I wish I was given when I moved from sales and marketing into reverse logistics. And that book was meant to start a conversation. Yeah. And the conversation evolved from the book into. I met Peter Evans, who's got a PhD from MIT. He's an expert in circular platforms. He responded to the book launch and said, hey, I need to learn reverse. I'm like, well cool. I want to learn platforms. So after we had a virtual coffee, he told me that he was teaching a masterclass in Barcelona on circular platforms and he wanted logistics to be a part of that. Right. So we joined forces and started our very first circular logistics and platform strategy masterclass. So the book had an evolution that was an eight day course. We've got three hour courses. We've got one day, two day, three day. We just did a two hour leadership course for the first time here at this event. But the goal was to go through and provide education. The master classes turned into a podcast that one of my former colleagues, Victorce, who helped run Cisco's Refresh organization.

[Scott Lewton]

I've done a couple shows with Vic and folks, Vic is short for Victoria. Victoria, yeah, Vic Darcy. She likes challenging organizations that say one thing and do the other. And I love that passion that Vic brings to the table in these, these conversations.

[Rich Bulger]

Not only does she like challenging organizations, she loves challenging me.

[Scott Lewton]

Oh, even better.

[Rich Bulger]

So we've got this dynamic where she's from the uk, so there's a British and a European flavor and that's one of the common things I've heard in my global travels. Don't make it all about the U.S. right. And don't make it all about mobile. You had a male perspective, a female perspective, a European perspective, a U.S. perspective. And we're not afraid to challenge each other. So it worked and it's been fun.

[Scott Lewton]

And Damian, which brings a terrific entrepreneurial perspective to the equation. Right.

[Rich Bulger]

Damian is a great human being and very innovative. He's a former finance guy who decided to get into wholesale liquidation when I left my, my last company that was in mobility and I had a non compete clause, I had to learn different elements. I had a 12 month burn down and I was watching Damien on LinkedIn doing these great videos on wholesale in a different category set retail returns. He'd buy anything from party supplies to pillows to, you know, returned laptop mice or, or whatever it was.

[Scott Lewton]

And he'd find demand.

[Rich Bulger]

He would find a man. And not only would he find find a man, he would tell people how he was doing it, love it, to make a difference. So I met him in Vegas. I actually flew to the ASD Market Week conference, a conference I had never been to, just to meet Damian. And Damian was hungry for making a difference, hungry for learning. So he taught us how to do podcasting. We taught him a different industry, and he is a key part of our alting circular team who specializes in retail, wholesale. And he's just such a great, interesting, good human being.

[Scott Lewton]

All right, you got a bit of a Hall of justice, the Justice League foreman here. So you got Dr. Peter Evans, Vic Darcy and Damien Pollock. I think I've got his name right.

[Rich Bulger]

That's right.

[Scott Lewton]

Okay. And of course, Rich Bulger, the world class taekwondo champion, amongst other things. And by. By the way, folks, that Verizon program he spoke about, you have to tune into another podcast because that deserves its own deep dive history, because there's lots of takeaway for where we are here in 2025 too. Let's talk about the book. Really quick going circular. The Evolution of Reverse Logistics into a Competitive Weapon. You talked about how the book was a bit of a springboard for creating the all things circular ecosystem, driving conversations through podcasts, training, masterclasses. We'll touch on that in a second. Probably some consulting and some guidance, some advisory, education, a big thing. We'll touch more on that. What type of feedback have you gotten on this book that essentially you were challenged to write in the Reverse Logistics.

[Rich Bulger]

Association, a group of people who do this for a living. I was inspired by the first two authors, Dr. Dale Rogers and Dr. Ron.

[Scott Lewton]

Lemke, because they're pretty famous within these circles.

[Rich Bulger]

They're legends. So they wrote the book and they gave it away. So I'm like, all right, well, I like that. So I wrote the book. Return Pro helped pay for the editing of the book, which I appreciated, and then we gave it to the rla. So if you're a Reverse Logistics association member, you can download the E version of the book for free. We went through. We gave 900 copies of the book away to anyone who attended the rla. And the one that we did in Amsterdam, everyone got hard copies of the book. And it's pretty intimidating going through, taking something, putting it on paper, and giving it away to all your peers to go through and provide feedback on.

[Scott Lewton]

Yes, I can only imagine that might be more intimidating than getting in the ring with a world class athlete.

[Rich Bulger]

Yeah. What I wanted to do is, again, spark that conversation, because I had been in all these different companies that called the same processes different acronyms. And since there's no real education on this, the American public university system is the only college on the planet that I have found. And any listeners, if you've ever taken a course not on supply chain or logistics, but one specifically on reverse logistics, hit me up on LinkedIn. I haven't found really any other courses that don't treat reverse as a byproduct, but it's the most complicated part of the supply chain, and there's no education.

[Scott Lewton]

On it, and it poses a tremendous opportunity.

[Rich Bulger]

Absolutely.

[Scott Lewton]

All right, so, folks, you heard that challenge from one Rich Bulger. If you've been a part of any reverse logistics training curriculum, college, tech, school, you name it, you want to hear about it.

[Rich Bulger]

I want to hear about it.

[Scott Lewton]

Especially if it teaches this new way of thinking where it's a tremendous opportunity to have more of the right returns and bake that into the overall business model. Right?

[Rich Bulger]

Absolutely.

[Scott Lewton]

All right, really quick, because I want to talk about this masterclass. You've got a lot of feedback around the book. If you had the bowl, a lot of feedback you've gotten. Because feedback is a blessing, as I've had to really patiently embrace.

[Rich Bulger]

Like comments on a podcast.

[Scott Lewton]

Oh, gosh, comments on a podcast, comments on how we conduct conversations, comments on how we lead businesses. And hey, but you know what? I'm kind of kidding, but Amanda does remind me very accurately regularly that feedback is a blessing.

[Rich Bulger]

Absolutely. How we get better.

[Scott Lewton]

So if you had the bowl, if you had, like, a common theme or two of the feedback you've gotten on the book, what would that be?

[Rich Bulger]

So we hit a deadline to get the book done. I wrote it in a year, and it was the first time the publisher that I had published the equivalent of a. Of a textbook or a guidebook like this. One of the things that I loved is the two editors that I had had no experience in reverse, and they actually felt good. We can't add any value because we don't know the subject. I'm like, no, you're actually the perfect person. Because I might be jaded just by my time using lingo that wouldn't resonate. But I want to give this book to someone who's coming into this for the first time. So when we wrote it, there's some things I wish I would have done different. There's no appendix in the book, so I want to want to do an appendix. There's some feedback that you know, feedback on one of my chapters. Circular finance.

[Scott Lewton]

Yeah.

[Rich Bulger]

Is a little bit more complicated than it should be. And I've learned a lot over the last 12 months.

[Scott Lewton]

I'll bet.

[Rich Bulger]

Going through traveling the world and talking to people. So my desire wasn't to make this book perfect. It was to start the conversation and then write a second one. This is a complex topic. I bought it, and I didn't think that I would need any more copies in the first one because I didn't think anyone would want to read it.

[Scott Lewton]

But you need more copies.

[Rich Bulger]

I've had to go through and order several rounds of more copies.

[Scott Lewton]

Outstanding.

[Rich Bulger]

I didn't do marketing on it because I thought it was niche, but I think this next one we're going to go through and do right. To have a broader appeal. Okay. I call this my cookbook. This is the ingredients, if you're someone that has to do this for a living, of how it's done. Yeah. And how the supply chain goes. Scott Case from the National Retail Federation.

[Scott Lewton]

Yeah.

[Rich Bulger]

Has asked me to write a leader's book. And when he asked that one that could go to CEOs of companies, because this is a big blind spot where no one knows what reverse logisticians do or how to train them. It's a necessary evil. He's like, you need to write a leader's book. And I thought of one of my best leaders, Jerry Fontaine, who would tell me, rich, I don't need the details. I trust you. I know you have this. Don't give me the recipe, just give me the menu. So the next one I write is going to be, instead of 350 pages, about 150. An airplane. Read on what leaders need to know about their reverse logistics team or circular logistics team.

[Scott Lewton]

Okay. I'm looking forward to being able to pick that up in the world's busiest airport in Atlanta. I know you work towards goals.

[Rich Bulger]

Yeah.

[Scott Lewton]

So what's the goal of this Second. So the first one's great. It sold well. It resonated.

[Rich Bulger]

Yeah.

[Scott Lewton]

But you're looking at taking everything you've learned ever since, all the feedback, and, of course, where the industry continues to go and make all that into a second edition or sequel. What date can we expect that value?

[Rich Bulger]

I'm hoping by the end of 2026. Okay. The leadership course that we did today, this is different. We've taught now nine different masterclasses in five different countries.

[Scott Lewton]

Okay.

[Rich Bulger]

Today was the 10th masterclass that we taught. I'm going to be in Belgium next week teaching another one. So it's going to be six different countries, 400 plus people going through. But this one had a different spin. It was a two hour one. And since we're at the Reverse Logistics Leadership Summit, this was the leader's overview of Reverse logistics.

[Scott Lewton]

So backing up just a second because you got a lot of variations of this master class, but at the core, what unites them all is circularity, thinking and doing and strategy and business models. Right. As you were describing, you've got probably a full blown masterclass, you all delivered globally and then you've got shorter targeted variations like you gave here this week at the reverse, the RLA leadership summit, is that right?

[Rich Bulger]

Correct. We've got 31 different modules.

[Scott Lewton]

31 different modules that make up the full blown masterclass.

[Rich Bulger]

That make up the full blown masterclass. And every conference that we do has their own love language.

[Scott Lewton]

Okay.

[Rich Bulger]

In terms of what's important, like the content we presented at Circularity is different than the concepts that we presented at Mobile Disrupt. Yes. Which are going to be different than the concepts that we present at next E Commerce Supply chain in Belgium next week. So for everyone, we talk to the conference organizers, we find out about who is coming and we make sure that we craft a message that will resonate. And every time we do that, our modules go plus one. It's a constitution. And this leadership one that we did today was primarily new modules that we hadn't presented before. But our hope was the conversation that took place today would become the framework and the outline for the Leader's guide.

[Scott Lewton]

Yes. You've been challenged.

[Rich Bulger]

Right, right. That we've been challenged to write. So this was our first foray to go through and pressure test the concepts.

[Scott Lewton]

Would you say that the room you had today, and it has a full room, I saw people standing up in the back. Would you say that this is a crowd that is much more savvy and informed and aware than a lot of the other audiences you speak to? Right.

[Rich Bulger]

The Reverse Logistics association is supposed to be where the industry professionals go. And this is the most prestigious event that exists within our industry because only the higher level sponsors and participants are invited to come through. So this is the niche within a niche.

[Scott Lewton]

Right.

[Rich Bulger]

And this is the most experienced part of the group. One of the questions that I ask, I've asked in all of my sessions, how did you get into reverse logistics? Were you trained? Did you with your formal course, did you shadow with someone? Were you just thrown in the deep end or you're still trying to figure it out? Scott, I've asked that question to over 400 people. Yeah. And do you know how many of 400 I've ever got that said they took a formal course?

[Scott Lewton]

I bet three.

[Rich Bulger]

One, One. And that person who said they took a formal course was an instructor that I had at American Public University. I'm like, well, you're teaching a course that doesn't count. When you go through and you take an industry that this complex.

[Scott Lewton]

Yeah.

[Rich Bulger]

And all the people that are supposed to do it are thrown into the deep end to figure it out. Figure it out. It punctuates the need that we have to do education, training, more books, more classes.

[Scott Lewton]

Even the leader of the RLA was picked from doing something else at Phillips. Yeah, that's right. And he was tasked with figuring out how to do reverse and returns management. And that really, if that doesn't really spike the football on your point, what does it? And in fact, we've got two bright seniors from Texas Christian University helping us out here today, capturing interviews. So a big shout out to Mark and Matty done great job. And they both knew, which is really ahead of the curve. They wanted to be in supply chain from day one. Mark is going to do some big things in procurement. Mattie's going to do some big things in production planning. That's very unique because it took me, I was a junior in college before I figured out what I wanted to do. Well, what's really cool as I introduce y', all, Rich, you with Mark and Mattie is you're like, that is impressive. Now I gotta go find students that know they want to do reverse logistics or circularity on day one. And that's exactly. That's where your brain went to. So it's really interesting. So I want to, I want to kind of full picture here, full circle, because education, when folks ask you in all these conversations globally, you're having about this, not only the critical industry of supply chain management, but this niche of niches, maybe, as I think, as you put it, what do we have to talk more about and figure out more and have more dialogue and more action around in the reverse and return space.

[Rich Bulger]

I'm going to use one word, impact. So some stats. If you look at the National Retail Federation size and scope of returns in the US study, they came up with $5.2 trillion is what retail made. In 2024, the impact of unwanted returns was north of 890 billion. Those are people who bought something and said, I no longer want it, I want my money back. So 890 billion of a $5.2 trillion industry, all that stuff went back through reverse. Prior to Covid, that number was about 350 billion and change. So when Covid took place and people shifted from brick and mortar, where return rates are about 8.8%, to online, where they're north of 17, the impact of unwanted returns almost tripled, all flowing through reverse. And then the other phenomenon that happened during COVID and shifts in buying preference from Gen Z and Millennials, where they'll purchase on purpose over price, buying used things, they're aware of their carbon footprint and they're actively taking steps. And they're great at technology that helps match used supply with used demand. The size of the secondary market has grown to north of $800 billion. So you combine unwanted returns, which go through reverse logistics. 890 billion. Right. With the growing market for secondary supply chain, north of 800 billion and growing. Put those two together. 1.6 trillion of a $5.2 trillion industry, 30% flow through reverse logistics, and no one knows how to do it. You go to a business and you say, hey, you're a legal team. Where'd you go to college? There's legal classes. You go talk to the finance team. Have you ever taken a course on finance? There's tons of courses, leadership courses, supply chain courses. I'll look at my friends from TCU that are in supply chain. Have you ever seen a course in reverse logistics? No. When we talk to our friends at Auburn. No. We've got to understand the impact and address it through education.

[Sean Cleland]

Yes.

[Scott Lewton]

I love that there's a similar analogy in the last 10 years. I wish I had the data, but I know more of the growth percentage data. I think we have over 250 institutions, colleges, tech schools, you name it, that teach some supply chain program, credential certification or degree. That number, I think, was less than 50, 12 years ago.

[Rich Bulger]

That's a great thing. We got a lot way.

[Scott Lewton]

A lot of ways to go, but that's a great thing. What you're saying is we need something very similar for the reverse space, for the circular space that also focuses on the modern way. Not just to your point, less thing, returns, but returns is a wonderful thing. Wonderful opportunity makes the customers happy. It can create revenue. It can bake more sustainable circularity into business models. I mean, it's a tremendous opportunity, but.

[Rich Bulger]

We got to have the education.

[Scott Lewton]

To your point out there, and that's a big part of the mission. Y' all own at all things circular, right? Right.

[Rich Bulger]

And one of the things I want to try to introduce is stop talking about forward and reverse as separate, separate things. Because reverse logistics just makes people's eyes glaze over. I've started using terms circular logistics because if you really think about it, forward is moving to the point of use.

[Scott Lewton]

Yes.

[Rich Bulger]

Reverse is moving away from the point of use. And if you do reverse logistics, right, when you bring things back through asset recovery, operations, value generation, preparing it for its next owner as it moves to its next owner, well, that's for logistics all over again. Right. And you can measure the success of your circular programs by measuring how often a product goes from the hands of one owner to the second owner through forward and reverse, the handoff. In circular logistics, there's circular sales programs, lease product as a service, trade in, that are designed to compel returns up. There's linear sales programs where you buy something and you want to return it. The revenue reversal, you want to drive those down. Warranty claims you want to drive down. But you need to understand how to go through, build circular sales and marketing programs, how to do circular movement. And what I found is circular logistics invokes an emotional response, particularly from my friends that are just entering career or my millennial friends that care about the impact that they have.

[Scott Lewton]

It's recruiting, it's purpose. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I love it. It's one of the magnets we need in this industry and in this space. And also I want to point out, you've done this. You're not one of the millions of folks out there that are consulting, advising, teaching. I'm not throwing stones anybody, but we all know there's lots of folks that teach it and haven't done it. You've done it. And as I mentioned, that story with Verizon and the chapter of yours at Cisco, now that you're using those great experiences and accomplishments, preaching the circular logistics gospel. All right, so there's so much more to the Rich Bulger story, but how can folks connect with you and all things circular?

[Rich Bulger]

So you can check out our website, www.allthingcircular.com.

[Scott Lewton]

Brand new spanking website.

[Rich Bulger]

It's a brand new spanking website. We have transitioned what was the podcast to a thought leadership space to go through and provide. Peter Evans writes amazing white papers. Vic is doing a ton of articles and blogs. We've got our glossary of returns there. It's where you can find our podcast. But if you want to bridge the gap between theory or challenges and applications, we do advisory service. So there's a way you can contact me from allthingcircular.com My love language is LinkedIn. So if you find me Rich Bolger on LinkedIn, messaging me there is probably the most effective way. There's tons of instant messaging and I've got too many email boxes and you know, you can't keep up with all the spam texts and calls that are coming through.

[Scott Lewton]

So true.

[Rich Bulger]

But LinkedIn is my safe space.

[Scott Lewton]

All right, so check out and follow connect with Rich Bulger, founder and chief Circularity Officer with all things circular. You can also track him down atall things circular.com. i get that right?

[Rich Bulger]

Yes, sir.

[Scott Lewton]

And make sure you check out not only the current book going Circular, the evolution of Reverse Logistics into a Competitive Weapon, but stay tuned by end of year 2026. You heard it here first, folks. The sequel. The highly sought after sequel.

[Rich Bulger]

So I'll throw a challenge out there too.

[Scott Lewton]

Oh, we got a challenge here.

[Rich Bulger]

Okay, so if there's things that you think need to be taught in the book for the people that are practicing it, let me know what they are. If you have thoughts and ideas, things you wish you could say to the CEO of your company about what you do, if you're in this space but haven't had the opportunity or the courage to ask, let me know and I'll put it in the leader book. Love it.

[Scott Lewton]

All right, folks, Rich Bulger wants to hear from you. Rich, of course, with all things circular. Rich, appreciate you being here.

[Rich Bulger]

Always good to see you, Scott.

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