A (3:20)

I'm great, Scott. Thank you so much for having me on the show and really looking forward, I mean I've known Dave for so many years, so really looking forward to today's session and as you say, learning some stuff whilst we talk.

B (3:31)

No doubt, no doubt. Great to meet you here today And Dave, welcome back. We've always enjoyed your stop ins here at supply chain Now. Welcome back. How you doing?

C (3:39)

I'm doing really well, thanks, Scott. And I'm all caffeinated and ready.

B (3:45)

You always are though, you always are. So let's do this. Let's start with a fun warmup question here today. And this is going to be, you know, I mean we're approaching 1500 podcasts and several hundred live streams and webinars. I could say I probably am approaching probably over 2,000 fun warmup questions. But Paul and Dave, I came up with a very unique one I've never used before for this conversation. Let's talk core mantras. So Dave, I picked this up and not just once, but several times in our interactions over the years because one of your core mantras is, quote, every day is full, full of opportunity, full of potential and full of choices. So if you would, Dave, expound on that a little bit, please.

C (4:29)

Yeah, I'm really happy to. I mean, I don't know what your diary is like or anybody's diary is like, but my diary's always got less space than it needs. My credit card's probably got less space than it needs, if I'm honest with you. But you know, there's so much demand upon our lives, both personal and business and we have to make choices and so we have to work out what's important. And I think the older you get, the clearer you get around what's important and you get to choose later on about the things that you really want to spend time doing and the things you really don't.

B (5:02)

So true. And you know what? It is such a privilege and a luxury to be able to make that choice each and every day. Right. Different folks in different parts of their journeys don't have that just yet sometimes. And I tell you, where we spend that precious, very finite time is a really important daily decision. So Dave, thank you for level setting with us on that wisdom there. All right, so Paul, you entered over to your LinkedIn profile when I first met you, so I could, I could, I could sneak on you a little bit and see what you're up to up at the top emblazoned on your profile. I love this quote. It always seems impossible until it is done. Tell us more about that, Paul.

A (5:40)

Yeah, look, I mean Scott, I've, I've lived my life with a positive mindset and I've written two and a half thousand articles and all of them tagged Positive mindset. So that's, that's how I approach life. In fact, my nickname is Positive Pool. So I, I approach that and impossibility is something that I just don't agree with. So what we find is there is always a way to achieve your goals. There is always a way to achieve what you have in life as an ambition. It just means sometimes the route is not known. And so that is what we go about. We are really looking for impossibility solutions. And I know some of my friends actually use that as a title in itself, but it's a mantra that I've always lived by. Let's find a solution. The best idea should always win. It doesn't always come true in the short term, but in the long term you can always find a way. And that's what I go positively going to find a way to solutions and supply chain with its challenges is all about finding solutions.

B (6:38)

So true. Positive Paul. We love nicknames around here, Paul. So thank you for sharing that. And you know what, even better, just my take, I love real pragmatic, real practical positivity, right? Because when we wear that hat every day, you know, especially in global supply chain where we're solving problems big and small every day and we have the option every day to either create more conflict or be much more practical and practically positive and be a source of resolving conflict and lessening conflict and friction. So that's at least what I try to wake up with that lens every single morning. So Paul, Dave, Dave, any friend of yours is a friend of ours and Paul's gonna fit in nicely here today. So on the business, I want to level set on a few topics here because as I, as I've had the opportunity to better understand your background and journey some a lot of our audience, you'll be new to them and I want to give them the Same opportunities. So Dave, as I've mentioned, you're creeping up the all time appearance list here at Supply Chain. Now I love that. But for folks that are new to you in our audience, tell us a little about a little bit about your journey.

C (7:47)

Yeah, well I, yeah, I fell into Supply Chain. I originally started out as a teacher and then I came back from working abroad and I ended up getting a job in Supply Chain almost randomly. I won't go into the details, but I've stayed in Supply chain for the next 35 years. And alongside helping most of the supply chain planning platforms to go to market and to deliver value for their customers, I've also found myself teaching some of this stuff. So I have the privilege to most years of getting in front of thousands of students to teach them about supply chain planning. And as you said in the intro, I describe myself as a reluctant academic. I love telling the war stories. I love pulling out the juicy bits and leaving the theory to one of my colleagues. I love it. Find me and that's what you find me doing most days.

B (8:36)

I love it. And you're very talented that I've seen it firsthand. And we need those juicy bits, right? It helps us wrap our heads around this, the innovation and the rate of change and gosh, the really cool, innovative ways that we do supply chain in 2025 and not like it's 1982. So blessed are those, like Dave, food that helps us get out there and learn and apply. Okay, so Paul again, great to have you join us here today for your first time on Supply chain. Now tell us about yourself.

A (9:05)

Great, thanks Scott. And David's one of the most humble guys I know. So double what he's just told you and you'll probably get close to how good he is at what he does. So I started off in retail marketing, retail buying with boots here in the UK and then we set up a supply chain function because things weren't working to stores and I, I followed that and I was lucky. I rose to the top of that organization after a few years. And then I've progressed in that sort of supply chain into the physical deliveries that was very analytical and then to physical and then into strategic a supply chain. But Scott, I've always been on the business development side. I've always looked for creating new solutions with clients and colleagues and adding value to stakeholders. So that's taken me on a journey. I had the privilege of setting up one of the first Internet businesses in 1994 at research machines, which is education supply chain solution and Internet for Learning was one of the first in the UK that had a transactional website that back in at that time. So and then I went moved to Unipart and set up their e commerce platforms for supply chain fulfillment that was called U Fulfill and then and that was in 98. And then I was lucky to ride that wave in a sense. And Dave and I worked on some projects at that time and then I moved into pure sales. I was group sales director at Unipart before I went on a managing director's role and but I've always been in supply chain helping people. And for the last 13 years I've been out on my own working with clients and working with chief execs and supply chain officers to improve what they do with a variety of clients. So I'm the interface. I'm sometimes called the meeting, the sandwich Scott. So I try and join these things together and that's been my career. And that's not why I write about it as well now.

B (10:47)

I love it. I love it. So I'm going to put this thought out there. I have the good fortune, I bet y' all do too, of meeting a variety of students in supply chain schools, really around the world, certainly here in North America. And rarely do I come across somebody that's in supply chain management degree that says they want to get into business, business development or sales, what have you. Folks, there are tremendous opportunities in global supply chain sales is not a bad word. Business development is, is a world full of opportunities. And you know, I've had an opportunity to rub elbows with folks that have opened markets for supply chain organizations. There are tremendous opportunities. So if you're listening or watching, take what Paul and David said to heart. Because the great thing, one of the greatest things about global supply chain is there's something for everybody. And there's all sorts of different ways to find your career journey.

A (11:36)

Yeah.

B (11:37)

All right. We're talking today, our dominant theme that we're going to learn from Dave and Paul on is supply chain leadership. And as I mentioned, I'm a big old leadership nerd. I love talking about it and learning and doing it better. So question for you both, and I'm going to start with Dave here. So Dave, you and I have talked about this before. There's all sorts of leadership challenges that are timeless. Right. They were important in 1982, since I picked on that year already, they're important in 2025. And then there are newer wrinkles that come along as the errors change and innovation and business velocity, all that stuff and it can present new wrinkles to the leadership challenge, especially in global supply chain. And if you would, Dave, share a few thoughts on both sides of that coin.

C (12:20)

Yeah, I think some of the long term challenges have always been about integrating, collaborating, working together and doing it both from a feasible point of view, it's achievable, but also ensuring it's profitable. And those have often been built around spreadsheets and longer term strategic plans. But as data has got faster, quicker, more detailed and our customers have got an expectation of accuracy, we start to get right across the board, whether it's in the business to consumer space or even the business to business space where people are saying I want it and I want it now and I want to know where it is. And so there's been a real raising the bar in terms of accuracy. There's been a requirement to make sure that your data is good and quality and consequently our focus, our range, the things that we look at has broadened and deepened, which requires that we are both capable but also experts in some areas. So I think those are some of the things that drive up to the leadership into the boardroom roles to make sure that we have the capability in the teams that we lead to ensure that that happens.

B (13:31)

Dave, well said. It reminds me of the old children's hymn Deep and Wide. I sung that in vacation Bible school.

C (13:38)

Back in the day.

B (13:39)

And it's so true that the responsibilities to really know more about the organization, about industry, especially your niche and business has gotten greater. The good news is the resources and our access to data and expertise is also grown. Good stuff there, Dave. Paul, same question. Share a few thoughts on supply chain leadership challenges, old and new.

A (14:00)

Yeah, great Scott. And so I say leadership is leadership. So when we look for great leaders, we're looking for leaders who can make judgments and we leaders who are driven, they can drive forward on agendas. So we're always looking for those in supply chain. We have this pragmatic element as well. We're always delivering something for somebody and we've got to understand that. So a leader has got to understand how the troops do what they do as well as the strategy and the strategic what we do. And that's why I've spent a lot of time looking at sort of military history as well servant leadership, how leaders can serve and support their organizations as well as creating headroom for them to drive forward. I talk about, as you know in the books, words to inspire. I've had the privilege in the last month to interview 50 supply chain leaders here in the UK covering global organizations with turnovers up to sort of 25 to 26 billion. And what they, everything they say today is about okay, we need to be analytical as well. So it's really important. As Dave highlighted, we've got data, we've got information and we have people and teams that do that. So in leadership functions we, we've got to inspire people to look for solutions, bury themselves in understanding how the end to end supply chain works. The great news is we've got visibility now. So I think leadership is about that full understanding of what you're trying to achieve, obviously why you're trying to achieve it and then how you can go about creating the new and the future will be more about that how. But I think that consistency of great communication, great inspiration, great leadership, that's drive this judgment that will be consistent going forward as well.

B (15:35)

Paul, good stuff there. And I want to just pick up one thing you said to see if y' all agree with me. We're not getting trained well as a global people when it comes to the news media and that the headline, the clicks and we're getting trained to be that 7C goldfish attention span where we may might read a headline and make a snap judgment. Yeah, I think there's a lot of danger and risk there by us not the five wise is a tool that's been around for decades and we can't just stop at the first why we got to really dive in deeper and understand the real story. Right. Because when we get down to as I think both of y' all spoke to this Paul, you certainly did the real matter, the heart of the matter, man, it's amazing how often you can find common ground, you can find innovations. And you know what, you also will be a lot better informed. Respond to that really quick. Dave, does that resonate with you?

C (16:27)

Yeah, it does. I mean we use the phrase happy customers. I mean if you've got a happy customer, they're going to tell people they're also, if you've got an unhappy customer, they're also going to tell people. Getting it right really matters and paying attention to not just the product and the quality of the product and how it gets delivered, but all the other experience that goes with that. The paperwork, the exchange, the service, the way someone hands something to you across the door on your doorstep. If that's the way it's getting delivered, it all matters and people remember things and they talk about it. So we've got to look at the bigger picture and the full experience of what we provide through supply chains.

B (17:05)

I like it. The whole enchilada and really shining a light before we make assumptions, shining a big light into our blind spot because we always have them. Paul, your quick comments for.

A (17:17)

Yeah, yeah, I didn't think I would be talking about enchiladas actually on this podcast, but that's, that's great, Scott. Thanks for introducing that. Yeah, I mean the thing that comes to mind for me is the word are the words of Richard Branson, founder of the Virgin Group, when he said if you keep your employees happy, they will keep your customers happy. So if we are in this technological age, really reliant on values based businesses, so this how we actually embody the values of what we do because actually the 7 second will shine a light on that. So I think we see a lot in the social media age of values business and if you can keep your values high, you'll keep your customers happy.

B (17:56)

Well said Paul. And I can't wait. We're going to touch more on your book where you're having those incredible conversations and sharing key takeaways. So stay tuned folks. We'll talk more about that. Okay, we're going to dive deeper into this leadership study here today on supply chain. Now, you know there's several, there's a long list probably of critical requirements that the recipe of successful leadership in global supply chain calls for. But I want to walk through a couple that we were talking about in the pre show that I won't get both y' all weigh in on. And I want to start with some fundamental understandings that leaders in training, current leaders or hall of fame leaders all need to wrap their head around. Dave, let's start with the bigger picture you were just touching a second ago. Tell us more.

C (18:40)

Yeah, it's interesting how many senior execs are now come from the experience of supply chain. It's fascinating to see how the skills and capabilities that people have developed in terms of joining supply chain together has enabled them to become thought leaders and also innovators to the market. It's not just about the product you deliver, it's the way you deliver it. So consequently the reliability of a promise, when you make a promise for delivery, what does that look like? How accurate is it? Do you actually deliver on those kind of things? Because people remember those kind of things. So chief executives and supply chain leaders need to pay attention towards making sure that the supply chain is delivering value. Martin Christopher, who's now an emeritus professor here in the UK, he said in the 21st century that companies will Compete on supply chains and services rather than products and prices. And we see that kind of thing. People are innovating now about where they store things, how they store things, how they deliver them, and how they help people to make choices to buy them in the first place. That's not something I ever thought was going to be part of supply chain. But now the choice mechanism and the catalog and the innovative way we present choices to our customers based upon what's in our supply chain starts to drive a completely different model. And the leadership requires a innovation. So supply chain leaders need to be innovative as well as capable.

B (20:08)

I love that, Dave. And, and really one of the things you spoke to there is the overall experience that global supply chains provide is so much more to your point. I think you, you mentioned Martin Christopher's so much more than just price and product. Well said. Paul, your thoughts on the bigger picture?

A (20:26)

Yeah, no, great. And look, I think one of the big components here is the change that applies supply chain as a visible function, if I can call it that, came about with COVID because everybody started to realize, gosh, we need to supply this stuff. And we understand actually without that shops are empty. So we look at retail supply chains and the manufacturers that support those and the leaders in those functions have become much more visible. I remember some a great debate on CNN about supply chain performance in the US in the sort of northeast states and Washington in particular, because that's where the political pressure came from. And there were empty stores. So everybody said, what's going on? So they understood that actually supply chain leadership is about ensuring that that supply continues to keep the customer happy. And actually the complexity of doing that became extremely visible. And the flexibility to make move from the store then to delivery to home also became very visible. So we've had that opportunity in a really tough time to actually leverage the capability of supply chain leaders and their teams in actually delivering for each of our countries. And I think that's made a step change in actually saying, look, these guys can run these businesses because they organize something that is really complex.

B (21:46)

Complexity, growing complexity, unique complexity, old and new complexity. Oh my gosh, 2025 has delivered on all that and a whole bunch more. Let's talk about another fundamental understanding that successful supply chain leaders got to wrap their head around. Dave, the bigger process. What do you mean by that?

C (22:05)

Part of the challenge around the bigger process is it's not just about ensuring that you deliver a product. It's also understanding the way that product's been assembled, how you provide flexibility to the choice I mean we're getting in a digital world now where people you're delivering to a product of one that gets printed through a 3D printer at the customer. I mean that's where we're heading. But all the way through that process there is choice and there is decision that's being made. And as those decisions are being made, costs are being incurred. And if you don't look at this as an overall process, you'll either be delivering fantastic products and you won't be making a profit or you'll be making the profit but the customers don't want it anymore because it's out of date. So that managing innovation and change through extremely long supply chains in some cases means that those choices need to be made and constantly reviewed to ensure that the product is fresh, relevant and profitable when it gets delivered to the customer.

B (23:03)

Dave, Profit, I'm talking about another word is not a dirty word. We can't run without profit. Paul, tell us about the bigger process in your words.

A (23:11)

Yeah, yeah, look, I sort of came out of automotive and automotive supply chains and we were running and responsible for the aftermarket. And I think it was Dan Jones said this is the most complex feat of human endeavor on the planet. And I've got some great stories, but we probably can't go into that. But we were looking at ordering engines from Japan to service cars in the UK at the time and that was a three month lead time. And I can tell you now, Scott, your full class was either lucky or wrong. I mean there was no way we were getting this right. And so the benefit of today is we have that visibility. We can track every decision we make at the component level and we can actually deliver customer satisfaction globally at a component level. And so that orchestration, that difference now has a, you need to have a different mindset but the process is still product gets made in A and gets delivered to B. And as Dave said, that's getting tighter and tighter and tighter. And I think it was Zara who actually change the model of finishing products right close to each market in order to drive down the inventories and the holding costs, but also keep very high that on shelf availability. And we've all copied that model in one shape or a form. And people keep innovating about this global supply chain. And I think that's really essential that as Dave said, you know, you've got to keep on this. There's a new idea somewhere. Tomorrow we might touch on agentic AI. We can demand sense 40, 50,000 data points in milliseconds. To actually influence our forecast and our supply. And that's going to be a whole new ballgame.

B (24:46)

Yes, Paul, I got to go back on and share something from an automotive standpoint. So, Dave and Paul, part of my journey in the manufacturing world was supplying products to a second tier automotive supplier. And one of my least favorite things about that stretch was how we were required to break down every single thing, every single cost that went into our product so that we could have, according to that supplier or our customer, acceptable levels of profitability. Hated that then. I couldn't imagine doing that now. I know that we've got to do that in some ways, but man, there was no. You were always under the microscope and that's not a good place to be off of, at least in my experience. Paul, was that your experience automotive?

A (25:36)

Yeah, yeah, look, I mean, I mean we love to call it clever cost down, but the cost down pressure was just enormous, just enormous. And you know, people were looking for 30% cost out of processes.

B (25:48)

Right.

A (25:48)

And you know, you'd start to start up a year thinking, well where am I going to get that from? So you had to be creative and innovative. You had to rethink your perspective. Not just what you did, you have to rethink your perspective and place yourself in a new way of thinking. And John Neal, my chairman at the time, he basically says, act your way into a new way of thinking. I thought that was very insightful because actually you have to change your mindset in order to deliver profitable performance and customer excellence at the same time.

B (26:19)

Paul Wilson and Dave, if I hope I never have to hear the word or phrase cost down again, annual cost downs. Oh my gosh. Dave, your quick thoughts?

C (26:31)

Yes, I would go even further than that. That kind of open book accounting really required a level of honesty that really put pressure upon the whole relationship. So much is more possible now. The reality is we can press into making better decisions in more informative and creative ways. Yes, that's right. Share skill.

B (26:56)

Yeah, well said, Dave. Okay, so Dave and Paul, I want to one last thing. When it comes to fundamental understandings, I want to talk about the wider team. Paul, what are you talking about when you say the wider team?

A (27:09)

Well, I mean supply chain touches everything. What we see now is the sort of role of finance and HR and people strategy and people offices, such so important. So we talk about skills, we talk about capability, we talk about capacity. And you've got to understand all of those components in order to build a high performing, highly functional team. But ultimately the essence of why you're there, the leadership components are super important. So it's essential that when we look at the wider team, we fully understand how they work together as a team and then how sub teams within that work because we, it's a bit like, you know, inbound in a warehouse you've got middle bound storage, stock count and then you got outbound dispatch and customer orders. People just think it's a warehouse, but actually you've got these multiplicity and multi level teams in action, always looking to improve their business processes, deliver and delight customers. So my perspective of the supply chain team, it's the end to end analytical team, but it's also the people who actually have to deliver the experience on the day to day. And you've got lots of stakeholders that need your support and we need their support in order to do that.

B (28:17)

Yes, that's right. Paul. Dave, your thoughts on the wider team?

C (28:20)

Yeah. One of the challenges is of course supply chain works right across the business and all the different departments within the business have got their own KPIs and so there's a real competition about who's winning and what scores we're actually comparing things against. So learning to be able to talk finance and supply chain is something that I think is a bigger team discussion. But then also aligning KPIs at the boardroom level. I mean, I find it fascinating that a new CEO can come into a company, set a new regime and a new approach. And then I want to ask the question, who reviewed the supply chain as a consequence of the new strategy that the CEOs got? And quite often the answer is we haven't reviewed it. So you're driving a new model but with an old engine in your car. Sticking to the automotive scenario we had earlier on, and that's a real challenge. You've got to make sure that your supply chain is aligned to the objectives and the strategies of your senior execs and the CEO.

B (29:13)

That's right, Dave. And I think, you know, I have talked about previous conversations. We got to create aligned metrics too so that we're not incentivizing folks to create disalignment. Right. But we'll save that topic for another day. Hey, really quick, quick hitters. Because we got a lot more to get to. Both of y' all have spent a lot of your parts of your journey in the boardroom. And Dave, I think you mentioned that in part of your response. Quick hitter. Just a thought or two around supply chain leadership in the boardroom.

A (29:42)

Paul. Yeah, look, I mean the good news is it's at the board table. Now. 20 years ago we were talking about when is supply chain going to get into the boardroom? Now it's at the boardroom, it's at the board table. It drives efficiency, it drives profitability, it drives success. And so people are looking to supply chain leaders on those three subjects. You know, what's the latest initiative we can actually implement to do X, Y and Z? And the supply chain leader has the ear of the chief executive because the other thing that the supply chain leader has is all of the suppliers typically and large. As you know yourself, Scott, I mean, I worked in aerospace for a time. 85% of all the cost in aerospace is outside of the company. So your suppliers, your multi tier suppliers are delivering that excellence for you. So partnerships, collaboration, information, all go to part of it. And that says to me this is a crucial part. Everybody around the board table now understands that. They know, want to support, they need information, they want to help. But it's a big team and I think supply chain has driven that.

B (30:42)

Yes, Paul, whether we like it or not, we've been saying this for years. It's in the boardroom. Some days that's a beautiful thing, other days a little more challenging. Dave, your thoughts about supply chain leadership in the boardroom?

C (30:53)

Well, I'd like to expand and say it's not just about in the boardroom. You know, often our supply chains are not just us, but our suppliers and our customers. So sometimes it's a collaboration of boardrooms. And you know, if you've got a supplier who's your innovative driver, let's say wiring looms in cars, then you're looking for them to help you to drive innovation and profitability. So the team is much bigger than just the executive team around the boardroom table. It's suppliers and customers as well.

B (31:25)

So true, Dave. In fact, going back to that same stretch in manufacturing, that stop of mine earlier, one of my favorite customers would invite folk cross functional folks from their operation and meet cross functional folks from our operation. And we find new ideas and we have that, oh, this is why this is important, the breakthroughs. If you're not having those conversations with the customer, you're really missing out. Great, great comment there, Dave. All right, really quick, we're about to get into T shaped people. But before we do, on a related, a second cousin maybe of that part of our conversation. I was just talking. I was at University of Arkansas last week. I spent time with, I tell you, some of the most brilliant students in future hall of fame supply chain leaders I've ever been around. 31 schools were there, right? Dr. Stephanie Thomas, Dr. Rod Thomas were big, big facilitators there. It's all about wise women impacting supply chain excellence. One of the things that we were talking about is this notion of specialists versus generalists and not maybe versus, but kind of those two things. Right. I was making the comment, let's see if y' all agree that saying I don't know is a really important thing. Even better yet, saying I don't know, but I'll find out. Music to my ears. However, I have found in my career that some of the best leaders I've ever worked for aren't. They're not the expert on every single product or process. It can't be kind of going back to what Dave is saying. It's an imperative to, to have the credibility and to reach that, that happy medium I'll call it. But generalists move mountains because oftentimes they figure out which specialist, specialist to bring in to whatever the right conversation, problem, innovation, what have you. Paul, your thoughts on specialists and generalists?

A (33:22)

I'll say, yeah, this is brilliant debate. I would say without exception of the 50 people I've interviewed recently, we believe generalists are becoming the way ahead in terms of leadership. Okay. So that would say foundationally, you've got to understand that you are going to be a generalist in order to be a leader going forward. Having said that, I mean, I came out of a world of professional sports and if you look at a sports team, you are a group of individuals who are specialists in their position or role working together to achieve a goal or an outcome that we have agreed. Now we'll train to do it in a certain way. We'll have coaches, we'll have mentors, we'll have physicians helping us to stay fit as part of that journey. So there's lots of stakeholders involved in the outcome. And if you look at sporting teams now, gosh, if I look at, you know, just sort of baseball, American football, these, the amount of support people around that team, helping them to perform at their best when they need to is going to be the future of supply chain too. So try and use that analogy and work on that and look at those best performing world class teams and say, actually I want my supply chain team to perform like that.

B (34:35)

Love that, Paul. And hey, by the way, we gotta look at global football too. Luton Town, are they any good? I've always said we trace our roots back to Luton, England and I just uncovered in the last year or so that We've got a football team called. Are they winning any trophies? Paul?

A (34:52)

Well, not, not recently. Not recently, but they did, they did win a minor trophy a while back and they were in the premiership not too long ago.

C (35:00)

Scott.

A (35:00)

And it's a fun place to go. I know a lot of people who really enjoy the football is. They're a passionate group, Scott, so that's why you fit with them so well.

B (35:08)

I'm going to get a flag and banner and go to a game. All right, Dave, we're talking about specialists and generalists. Your thoughts?

C (35:16)

Yeah. One of the important things here is to make sure that you've got people around you you can seek advice from. They're going to give you honest truth. One of the worst scenarios I've ever seen is where you get CEOs who are still keeping their finger in the pie on whatever their area of expertise is it. You find someone who's developed a product, the business has grown now become a multi billion dollar business and they've still got their finger in the pie on the innovation process. And you know, some of that might be unique, but actually they've got to trust their team. So you've got to have, you've got to have people who are able to be generous, but you also got to have people who are willing to accept advice from people who are probably going to grow and leapfrog ahead of them as they become the specialists of the future.

B (36:00)

Yes, well said, Dave. Well said. Good stuff. Okay, so now that let's explore this notion of T shaped people. Now I'll be honest, we keep it real around here. I just learned about T shaped people here recently so I'm looking forward to learning from you both here. Paul, let's first let's define it, what we're talking about when we say T shaped people. Paul?

A (36:20)

Well, if you imagine an organization built up a function so it's got to deliver an end to end process, but it's built up at functions. Typically the T shaped person has got a great overview of where they fit in the process, but a deep, deep knowledge of expertise down the stem, down the tee in their area of expertise. And that is what a T shaped person has became. And now we're moving on. And as I say, but it's really what's your function and what's your role. You've got to make a contribution end to end. You basically join up an organization end to end. You've got to be aware of everything. But people look to you for your area of expertise and that's what a T shaped person is.

B (36:58)

So Dave. Thank you Paul. That makes a lot, ton of sense. So Dave, we're not just talking about folks with broad shoulders that are 10ft tall. There's some science behind. What would you add about T shaped people?

C (37:10)

Well, it's been a concept that's been around for 35 years actually. David Guest, I think launched the idea in about 1990s and then the CEO of Adeo, I can't remember his name, Tom Brown, possibly he picked it up and kind of developed it. But the thing about it is that actually you've got to make sure that you are developing and growing lifetime learners is an important part of being a teaching person. So maybe you're going to grow in your breadth or maybe you're going to grow in your depth, but you need both to really function at the level that supply chain executives are required to these days. And sometimes you need to make sure that the team that you're building around you is diverse. You're adding friction, conflict into your conversation so that you deal with the challenges in your meetings and in your discussion rather than with your customers and your suppliers.

B (38:00)

Yes. Now we're going to bridge the gap back to what we were talking about a second ago as generalists and specialists because I think it's very related here. So Paul, I'm asking a, maybe a dumb question, but I want to ask anyway so I can learn your thoughts. You and Dave, why are T shaped people critical parts of any supply chain organization?

A (38:20)

Well, I think there's, there's two or three elements really and I'll come back and pick up on something Dave said because I thought was really important is that actually the most important thing is you've got to know the impact of what you do. So if you pull a lever in supply chain then you've got to know what the impact of pulling that lever is and you know, who's it going to affect. Your stakeholder group is really broad and so your end goal is to put a product in your customer's hand and delight that customer. That's your end goal. So what's your role in doing that? And that's the T. You've got to understand that. But then you've got to look and say, well what am I responsible for delivering for the organization in terms of value, cost down, profitability, acceleration, capability? These are all things you're accountable for in your functional role and obviously accountable to the organization. So it's really important that we as leaders understand both of those elements and that's why I think that we need to sort of move forward. The thing I was going to pick up on, what Dave said, which I thought was absolutely spot on, is actually when you practice, you can practice without being live. So that's why a training ground exists and the great leaders ensure their teams can train without risk. And I think failure is a way to fail. Forward fast is today's scenario. And it's a phrase that you hear a lot in supply chain teams. You've got to be able to test and pilot in the new ideas in order to move forward fast. And I do sometimes think that actually changing a supply chain is like doing open heart surgery while you're still walking along. It's pretty hard to get right. So sometimes you do have to step and pause and say, right, what can I test now? Let's put it in, let's test it, but let's fail. Forward fast. Yeah.

B (40:07)

Yes. I'd much rather fail in the petri dish out there in the. In the operation, so to speak. Dave, what would you add about why T shape People are absolutely critical.

C (40:18)

Coming, coming from a technology point of view, that whole idea about having a sandbox is something, you know, so those T shaped people are able to play. Yeah. You know, imagine a box of sand and you're playing with your grandson. You know, there's fun to be had, but there's also lessons that can be learned and lessons that could be taught with minimal risk. So empowering your people to make mistakes, I think not jumping on every mistake, you know, you've also got to have the protection mechanisms around to make sure that we don't make mistakes that are going to result in the business losing a customer, losing a contract, or losing reputation. These things matter.

B (40:54)

Go, go out. Great, great stuff, Dave. Go out and get you a sandbox, folks. Go out and get the digital sandboxes that are available now where you can have millions of activities in a day. It's amazing. And gosh, the innovations and learnings you can unlock and the risk you can avoid or the missteps you can avoid is tremendous. Okay, so we're gonna come. We got a big home stretch here. I can't wait. We're gonna be talking about what not to do here in a second. We're gonna get Dave and Paul's take on what may rise to the top in terms of leadership importance in the next five years. And you're not going to want to miss some really cool things that Paul and Dave are up to and how to connect with them. But I want to take us back. So let's see here. It was January of 1995. I was Airman Scott Lewton in the United States Air Force. I had just gotten through basic training and in my follow up tech school and I arrived at my first permanent duty station, Shaw Air Force Base in Sumter, South Carolina which join the Air Force, you'll see the world. It was an hour and a half from home. Paul and Dave. But that's not what's important here. What is important in it, in my first day in my new office with my new team taught me a lesson that has stuck with me ever since. I get on site, I sit down and meet one of the bosses in the office, one of the managers in the office. His name was Richard. And as he sat down, me and a fellow newbie, Purvis was his name. Richard says, first thing he says, you will learn to fear me. And that was my introduction to my new duty station. And that has stuck with me ever, ever since as something never, ever remotely to do. Because leadership's not about fear. So with that in mind, I want to flip our conversation on its head and talk about what we can't do, what we can't allow to happen, what we shouldn't do when it comes to real supply chain leadership. Paul, your thoughts?

A (42:53)

Yeah, I mean, look, the most important thing I've always said is inspiring people to get the best out of themselves and achieve more than they thought was possible for themselves. So the inverse is absolutely true. I've seen a lot of leaders try to control what people do and even worse control how they do it or how they think about it. Anything in that area is poor behavior and the great organizations don't have that. And I think so in today's world, if you've got constrained processes where people have to just come in and do an eight hour shift in a way that just functions without any thought. I mean Google broke that barrier, didn't they? Because they were sort of saying, look, let's give half a day for thinking to people, so let's be creative. So if you oppress people's ideas, their mindset and their behaviors, any indication of that is really poor leadership behaviors.

B (43:48)

Paul, well said, well said. I wish I could take that back in time and rebut because I didn't know what to say. Oh, tell all Richard. Dave, what would you add in terms of what not to do?

C (43:59)

I, I think what not to do is not to try and do everything everywhere. You know, running in your lane as a business or as an executive is Absolutely key. So not giving people freedom to do everything. Are we going to be the best? Are we going to be the cheapest? Are we going to be the fastest that gets set and then we can be innovative under that umbrella. So giving people freedom to bring innovation to the table, yes, great. But don't so constrain people that no innovation happens. People don't feel they have the freedom or the right to suggest something and consequently they go somewhere else because their innovation is going to be and, and their scores and their capabilities, you got to be appreciated somewhere else.

B (44:41)

Dave, I love that. And in particular this, this an element of what you just shared has come up time and time again recently and it's universe's way of telling stuff. I think, I think of some of the most quiet reserve folks that have been a part of my journey. Go to those people because they have some of the best ideas but they either aren't given a chance to contribute at meetings or maybe they're not confident enough to share. Go to those people. They are. You'll unlock some, some brilliance. Okay, what not to do. That was fun. Paul and Dave, I'm going to talk more about that in future shows. Let's talk about, let's, let's look deep into our crystal ball. As I like to say, mine's been broken for years and it's waiting on parts or seven years out. They tell me, Dave, you spent a lot of time using your expertise and experiences to think about the future and what's coming. Paul, you probably do too, but I know Dave does because our past conversations. So Dave, when you think about the current elements that we've either we've talked to or some others out there that are play a big role in effective supply chain leadership or new elements, what do you think what will rise in, in importance, say five years from now?

C (45:55)

I think five years from now we're going to be talking about individual decisions, about how things can be delivered uniquely to us as a customer and probably with kind of, I know it's Star Trek, but with almost the kind of teleporting capability where you're printing something at a location because you've got the capability to do it. And we'll have configurable products that will be driven by product design and supply chain will take a different role because it'll be about configurable capability and programmability at the point of delivery. But what sits alongside this is what we're all talking about somewhere, somehow is some use of artificial intelligence and machine learning to help to drive supply chains that are truly flexible because you've considered multiple scenarios in the sandbox of intelligence to help to make sure that products are delivered in new, fresh and real ways.

B (46:53)

I love that, Dave, and I love the Star Trek reference on the front end. It will be an interesting world. One of my favorite things to do back in the day was look at old issues of like Popular Science and those kinds where they were predicting the future, you know, and, and, and in, in more modern issues they would actually. One of the first things they do is, is they would present little, little capsules of what they were talking about 100 years ago and then 50 years ago and then 20 years ago. Dave, I hope your prediction there come to fruition because that'd be a really cool, cool thing for global supply chain, but a cool thing for us consumers too. Paul, asking me a tough, tough prediction to beat. What do you think rises in importance with supply chain leadership in five years from now?

A (47:38)

Look, I'm going to be pretty consistent with the individual contributions. You know, your communication skills, your thinking, your analytical skills. I was sitting in the office in 1985 when the first PC got delivered, okay? And it had a five and a quarter inch floppy disk and it changed our world. I was, I was, I was then working in, in 1998 in E commerce platforms and businesses. And we predicted how much trade would go through these, the actual financial numbers. We were absolutely right how it worked. We were absolutely wrong. I mean, it's just interesting. We're here again. AI is doing the same for us again. It's going to change the platform, it's going to change the way we behave, it's going to change the way we think. However, we still need the people understanding how their teams work, how their businesses work, how the strategy works and where the values are going to be set. And that is the thing that underpins the future of great supply chain leadership.

B (48:31)

Okay, we're going to need shades both of y'. All paint a very bright, bright future. I can't, I'm not, I'm not rushing time away because five years from now I'm thinking about my three kids and the bills they'll have then. Oh my gosh. So, so we'll take it one day at a time. All right, so let's wrap on a couple cool things. I love, love our conversation here today. So Paul and Dave, thanks for your time. Let's talk about some of the other cool initiatives and projects you, you are spending some time on. So Paul, you've got a couple of New books coming out. You've mentioned one focused on logistics leadership, I believe.

A (49:03)

Yep.

B (49:04)

Tell us a little more.

A (49:05)

Yeah, so, I mean, look, I've written thousands of articles on supply chain leadership and sales leadership, business development leadership. So I focus on what makes leadership performance better and my inspired series of books. First one's out, second one's due out next month, volume two and counting. Scott. So until I get to 10, I'm just keeping going. And what I like to do is I unpack words that inspire me to write something about today's leadership conundrum, today's leadership challenges, and put that out there on LinkedIn in the main. And. And then what I'm trying to do as part of that is say, look actually under this Logistics Leaders Network, a group that I've been involved in looking at what great leadership performance looks like. And I've had the privilege of interviewing a number of supply chain leaders, about 40. So at the moment, and really looking at the essence of that and trying to document it and things like understanding what resilience really means in today's world, understanding what the future of supply chain leadership is going to look like. And I'm going to make a contribution by putting out a book towards the end of October around leadership, the best supply chain leadership performance that we understand today, and then keep working on that going forward. So those projects are really exciting and they're all under my sort of words to inspire banner.

B (50:23)

Outstanding.

A (50:24)

Paul.

B (50:24)

Where can folks get these publications of yours?

A (50:28)

Yeah, just go to wordstwinspire.co.uk and they're all there. Scott.

B (50:33)

Outstanding.

A (50:34)

Okay.

B (50:34)

It's just that easy. Good stuff, Paul. All right, so, Dave, I've really enjoyed your blog series and its title, folks. Get this planning, food for thought. Get that little dad's joke there.

C (50:44)

I love it.

B (50:45)

Dave, I bet you've gotten lots of feedback. I enjoy your perspective. I think you publish that just about every week. I enjoy your perspective almost as much as I enjoy some of the comments I've seen. And some of the conversations that you're writing tends to spark what's been some of your favorite feedback thus far.

C (51:01)

So my favorite feedback is actually where people don't agree with me, to be honest, is actually iron, sharpened iron. The reality is there's a bit of heat and friction and some good conversation comes out of that. But to be honest, also some good business comes out of that, either from a consultancy point of view or for the customer or consumer is actually putting into practice some of the ideas we're exploring together. But I think one of the challenges around writing anything is it has some value now, but will it still have some value in the years to come? I mean, some of the quotes that Paul's talked about earlier on, you know, have stayed on, on the shelf for decades, if not centuries. I hope that one or two things I write might actually still be around in 50 years time. Who knows?

B (51:42)

I think if I was a gambling man, I put money on it will be around and relevant in 50 years from now. Dave, I enjoy your perspective. And that's. That's weekly, right? A weekly blog.

C (51:52)

Yeah, Weekly vlog. Yeah, absolutely.

B (51:54)

And folks can find it by connecting or following you on LinkedIn, is that right?

C (51:58)

LinkedIn's my, my go to place. I have a saying that says if I can't help you, I know someone who can. And I genuinely believe that to be true. I introduce people, step away and leave them to get on with the conversation. You're. I've got a pretty unique name, you know, I don't know anybody else who's got the same family name as me, apart from the people who are in my family. So on LinkedIn.

B (52:19)

I love that.

C (52:20)

I love that.

B (52:20)

Food for thought, Dave. Okay, let's make sure.

C (52:23)

So.

B (52:23)

So Paul, you shared a URL a second ago. I want to make sure folks know how to connect with you, whether it's books, whether it's your thousands of articles or if they want to talk shop with you. How can folks reach out to you? Paul Brooks.

A (52:36)

Yeah, if you go, go further. Consulting obviously is my consulting business. So paul.brooks@gofirth consult consulting.co.uk is the place to find me and my website words to inspire.co.uk we'll find all the books and my writing and some of the leadership articles I share. But always happy to connect with people if they want to reach out.

B (52:55)

Outstanding. Paul, great to meet you here. Really have enjoyed your perspective. And Dave, thanks for connecting us with Paul Brooks. Really have enjoyed both of y'. All. Clearly y' all have been doing some cool things for quite some time. You may be second cousins by now. Dave. And how can folks connect with you and the cool things you're doing? Dave, food.

C (53:13)

Well, LinkedIn would be the obvious place, but Dave@ prophetic hyphen technology.com will get through to me on an email. I'm also happy to take WhatsApp messages and my mobile number is very, very visible, so.

B (53:27)

Okay, man, that's bold. Brave and bold. Your name, I love it. Well, well folks, hopefully you enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. I really have enjoyed learning from our guests here today. Paul Brooks, who serves as founder of Go Further Consulting. Also, lots of books coming out. So make sure you connect with Paul and visit the resources he mentioned. And my friend Dave Food, who serves as chief strategy officer with Prophetic Technology. And I would say he is pretty prophetic. We're going to see five years from now. Let's see here, that's going to be September 24, 2030. We'll go back and look at Yalls observations and we'll have another podcast. How's that sound?

A (54:02)

Fantastic.

B (54:04)

All right, audience members out there, our dear global Supply Chain now family, you've got some homework. First off, again, I hope you've enjoyed this very actual conversation here today. Been there, done that. Perspective for sure. But your homework is you got to take one thing you heard here from Paul, just one thing, or from Dave, put it into practice. It's about deeds, not words. That's how we're going to continue, continue transforming the global business world, not just Supply Chain, and realize more and more of the art of the possible. And gosh, that's an exciting space right now. But with all that said, Scott Luden, on behalf of our entire team here at Supply Chain now, challenging all of you, our dear family, do good, give forward, be the change that's needed. And we'll see you next time right back here on Supply Chain Now. Thanks everybody. Join the Supply Chain now community. For more supply chain purchase perspectives, news and innovation, check out supply chain now.com subscribe to Supply Chain now on YouTube and follow and listen to Supply Chain now wherever you get your podcasts.