The Buzz: Insights on Reverse Logistics & Circular Economy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Supply Chain Now – The Buzz: Insights on Reverse Logistics & Circular Economy
Date: October 10, 2025

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Overview

This episode of "The Buzz" on Supply Chain Now, hosted by Scott Luton and Kim Reuter, dives deep into trends and challenges in manufacturing, workforce development, and the emerging importance of reverse logistics and the circular economy. Special guest Rich Bulger—author of “Going Circular” and founder of All Things Circular—offers industry-shaping insights on how reverse logistics is evolving from a cost center into a competitive advantage. Together, the panel explores key news stories, spotlighting investments that shape the landscape, the impacts of potential government shutdowns, and how workforce development must change to support a more sustainable supply chain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Manufacturing’s Current State and Re-shoring Realities

• Key Data: US manufacturing contributed almost 10% of GDP in Q1 2025, but sector faces a mild contraction (US ISM index), whereas global markets like Thailand and India see modest growth due to shifting supply chains and tariffs.

  • [03:03] Scott Luton: “For first quarter 2025, the industry contributed almost 10% of total GDP. How about that?”
  • [04:02] Kim Reuter: “We are also seeing manufacturing globally shift... That is a direct relationship to these shifts in tariffs, the targeting of the China industry and manufacturing with our higher tariffs specifically for those countries.”

• Reality of Big Investments: Recent high-profile announcements, such as Intel’s $28B investment in Ohio, are not guarantees.

  • [13:42] Scott Luton on Intel delays: “The new plants in Ohio won't open before 2030—or as I would say, if at all. That’s the thing with these massive investments.”
  • [14:02] Rich Bulger: “There’s a lot of things that are easy to say, tough to do…when the economics fall apart, the tune changes.”

2. Supply Chain Vulnerabilities & the Government Shutdown

• Systemic Delays: A US government shutdown can ripple globally, especially impacting compliance, imports/exports, and costs from forced workarounds.

  • [17:26] Rich Bulger: “When you have a supply chain that has a kink in it... the supply of products is used, actually increases the value of used things.”
  • [18:54] Kim Reuter: “We’ve modernized customs a little bit... I think it will be less impactful than we expect. But if you do get pulled on a manual, it’s going to take a while to get that through.”

• Reverse Logistics & Resilience: Reverse flows (returns, reuse) become critical when forward supply is disrupted.

3. Workforce Development and Talent Gaps in Manufacturing

• Trade Skills Shortage: Offshoring led schools to de-emphasize trade education, creating a shortage in skills necessary for reshoring.

  • [23:20] Scott Luton quoting Alan Amling: “One of the unexpected findings in our research was the skills gap in trades, electricians, welders, carpenters, plumbers, masons, etc.”
  • [26:05] Kim Reuter: “You’re going to have to start to learn how to change oil again in high school and sew buttons because that’s what we learned when we were in high school... Just basic trade skills are becoming fewer and fewer.”

• Reverse Logistics Education Gap: The sector lacks formal education—most professionals learn on the job.

  • [23:27] Rich Bulger: “How many people that are doing reverse ever took one formal course on reverse logistics?...At the RLA summit, the best of the best, there was no one that took a formal course.”

4. Circular Economy: From Reverse Logistics to Competitive Weapon

• Shift from Linear to Circular: Linear supply chains focus on minimizing returns; modern models focus on maximizing usable returns (trade-ins, reuse, remanufacturing).

  • [36:39] Rich Bulger: “The barrier to the circular economy is the success of the linear economy. Because in a circular economy, there’s some return programs that you actually want to drive up—think of trade-in.”
  • [38:46] Kim Reuter: “I have made my case for buying secondhand... that’s different than returns. Returns cost a lot of money... and that’s why companies are always trying to drive them down.”

• Tech & Orchestration Platforms: Role of orchestration in streamlining returns, waste reduction, and environmental impact.

  • [30:39] Rich Bulger (on orchestration): “Recycle Global Exchange is an orchestration platform that allows people that have complex footprints to find local recyclers... reporting is exchanged in a consistent way through the platform.”

5. Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• [11:02] Rich Bulger, on his favorite noodle: “If I could have one noodle dish, it would be [my wife’s] lasagna.”
• [36:51] Rich Bulger: “If I spend $100 on a thing and I can get $30 back at the end of the season, well, then I’m only spending $70 on it.”
• [42:47] Kim Reuter on her most talked-about podcast episode: “I think the one that got a lot of traction recently... was I gave my thoughts on what I think is going to happen with the steamship lines and how... take a look at FedEx, DHL, and UPS.”

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Manufacturing Pulse Check & Industry Moves (00:33 – 07:43)
• Intel’s Investment & Skepticism Over Mega Projects (13:42 – 15:44)
• Impact of Government Shutdown on Supply Chains (16:02 – 19:53)
• Challenges in Workforce Development (23:20 – 27:17)
• Reverse Logistics Education and Practice Gaps (23:27 – 25:50)
• Circular Economy & Reverse Logistics as a Weapon (35:13 – 39:34)
• Tech Innovations: Orchestration Platforms (30:39 – 33:48)
• Panelist Featured Projects & Podcast Recommendations (42:15 – 44:44)

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Resources Mentioned

• “Going Circular: The Evolution of Reverse Logistics into a Competitive Weapon” — Rich Bulger’s book
• All Things Circular – Podcast and consultancy platform (www.allthingscircular.com)
• The Morning Mood (soon to be renamed to include “Supply Chain”) – Kim Reuter’s podcast
• US Bank Freight Payment Index and EasyPost for supply chain analytics/claims optimization
• Circular Logistics Masterclass

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How to Connect

• Rich Bulger: LinkedIn; All Things Circular podcast and masterclass; upcoming episode with Sharia Ramadi of Reconnects on October 22, 2025
• Kim Reuter: LinkedIn; The Morning Mood (YouTube, soon rebranded); expertise in both supply chain and seafood industries

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Takeaways

The shift toward reverse logistics and the circular economy isn’t just about sustainability—it’s about making returns, reuse, and remanufacturing a source of profit and resilience. Yet, this evolution exposes major education and workforce gaps. Meanwhile, the supply chain bears witness to highly publicized investments that may or may not materialize, underscoring the need for realism and adaptability. Both Rich and Kim advocate for proactive learning, embracing new technology, and re-investing in skilled trades and circular thinking to future-proof supply chains.

Final challenge, echoed by Scott Luton:
“You got to take one thing you heard here from one of these leaders, put it into practice, share it with your team, do something with it. Deeds, not words—that’s how we keep transforming global supply chain. Forward in reverse, Rich.” (46:26)

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Transcript

[Scott Luton]

Welcome to supply chain now the number.

[Rich Bulger]

One voice of supply chain.

[Scott Luton]

Join us as we share critical news.

[Rich Bulger]

Key insights and real supply chain leadership.

[Scott Luton]

From across the globe. One conversation at a time. Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you may be. Scott Luton and Kim Mortar here with you on Supply Chain now. Welcome to today's live stream. Hey, Kim, how you been?

[Kim Reuter]

I've been great, thank you. I just came back from the great state of Georgia, so I'm doing amazing.

[Scott Luton]

Outstanding. I heard you're down there on Jekyll island, the land the the rich and famous. Making it happen down there, Kim, huh?

[Kim Reuter]

Not really making it happen. Just making it chill and relaxing. It was beautiful place. Highly recommend it. We went to the Georgia turtle rescue that was fabulous to see where all they take care of all the sea turtles.

[Scott Luton]

So I love that, been there, love that. And it's a gorgeous part of the world for sure. So you know what, when you make it happen all the other time, it's good to take a little break from moving mountains. So Kim's awesome. Well, folks, you know, it's the buzz where Every Monday at 12 noon Eastern time we discuss a variety of news and developments across global supply chain and business news that matters is what we like to call it. And folks, the buzz is powered by our friends at Auto Scheduler AI who's on a mission to make your warehouse operations smarter, more efficient and adaptable. You can learn more at autoscheduler AI and we got a lot of good stuff to get into here today. We're going to be talking manufacturing as we're in manufacturing month all month long in October. We're going to be taking a look at those big reshore wins I guess to come and how Intel's $28 billion investment in Ohio is coming along. It might surprise a few folks or maybe not. Hey, how does the government shutdown impact global supply chains? Stay tuned. We're going to get into all that and a whole bunch more. And Kim, we got if having Kim Reuter on the show, the buzz isn't big enough. We've got another great guest today. Rich Bulger with all things circular is back by popper Demand. Kim, all told, should be a great addition of the buzz, huh?

[Kim Reuter]

It's going to be a great one as always.

[Scott Luton]

I agree. So folks, two things we get going. Number one, give us your take in the comments whether you're tuned in via LinkedIn, YouTube, X Facebook, Twitch, no matter. Let us know what you think. Just like leah. Kim. Yeah, LinkedIn. Leah, let us know where in the world you are tuned in from. And Trisha, she's already on top of it, sharing helpful links. Trisha, big thanks to you and Amanda make production happen every single day. Secondly, folks, if you enjoy the show, share it with your friend, your family, your friends, your networks, you name it. Aunt Edna up in Idaho, whatever, they'll be glad you did. Tim, are you ready? We got a couple things to get to before Rich joins us. Did you eat your Wheaties and you hanging on to your socks and all?

[Kim Reuter]

I did.

[Scott Luton]

Okay, let's do this. I got three or four things to hit before Rich joins us. The first one is our latest edition of with that Said, which published over the weekend. Fresh off the heels of Manufacturing Day, which was last Friday, we shared a few data factoids on one of my favorite industries. That's right, the manufacturing industry, as you can see right here, is critical to the global economy here in the US for first quarter 2025, the industry contributed almost 10% of total GDP. How about that? It is cool.

[Kim Reuter]

It's very good. It's been bigger before, but it's a solid number and I think we should be pretty excited about it. Hopefully that number is going to go up.

[Scott Luton]

I agree, I agree. I like how you think as always. And speaking of kind of a current pulse check and we include this. And with that said, y' all can check it out. The domestic manufacturing industry has been in a little bit of a malaise. The ISM manufacturing PMI showed slight overall contraction in September with new order slipping and employment showing continued weakness. Now on the other hand, the global manufacturing PMI which is reported by S and P Global, showed a little bit of growth. Hot markets included Thailand and India. Beyond the manufacturing metrics, we also included a great guest blog from our friend Bart Demont focused on freight, audit and payment, AKA F A P. We love our acronyms and supply chain. Also included interesting reads from Blue Crux and Inner Systems and always included tons and tons of our upcoming live events. Lots of other resources. So Kim, it was jam packed. Big addition. One thing stood out to you.

[Kim Reuter]

So US manufacturing. You know, we all want for that to grow. We're going to talk about that a little bit more later on the podcast on some deep dives on what's going on. 10%. It's okay. Like I said, it's not as high as it's been in the past, but we'll take it. You know, we are also seeing manufacturing globally shift. We call that India and Thailand. I think that is a direct relationship to these shifts in tariffs, the targeting of the China industry and manufacturing with our higher tariffs specifically for those countries. So I think Thailand and India have been benefiting from that. Obviously India is in a bit of a lurch now again, but that's what we're seeing. And then as far as slowing in manufacturing our orders in the United States, you know, we're coming up on we're coming up on the holidays. Normally we do kind of see ordering slow why inbound is picking up. So I mean it's fairly normal. Yeah, it's not great, but it's not bad.

[Scott Luton]

I'll take it and I'll take fairly normal. I'd love to live in fairly normal time. Good stuff, Kim, as always. And folks, check it out. Trisha has dropped a link to with that said, now listen, if you want to get an almost weekly pulse check on top stories on upcoming live shows where we, you know, we invite you to share your voice and kind of what we're doing here at Supply Chain now subscribe to. With that said, you'll be glad hopefully that you did now ask and they shall deliver. Leah tuned in from up your former neck of the woods.

[Kim Reuter]

Formal neck of the woods. Yes.

[Scott Luton]

Beautiful Seattle, Washington. Great to see you, Leah. Give us your take on these topics we're talking about here today. Okay. Speaking of Kim, we've already spoken of this too. He's always on the move. Kim is keynoting. She's helping companies grow and overcome this new never normal these days speaking events all around the world. But lately, Kim, I think you've been working a ton on your podcast called the Morning Mood.

[Kim Reuter]

Yes.

[Scott Luton]

In helping folks in the seafood industry find better path forward. Tell us more.

[Kim Reuter]

Yeah, so Morning Mood is going along really well, going through a rebrand which is super exciting because I feel like I do this for other companies all the time and never get to do it for myself. So that will be coming out soon. I don't want to let any cats out of the bag, but we're supply chain will actually be in the title now, so be a little bit clearer about what we're talking about. So that's been really good. And as you said, you know, I'm back in the oyster game again and this time around it's pretty exciting. I'm working with 135-year-old Oyster Company and I've got an amazing, extremely unique product that I'm excited to bring to the market.

[Scott Luton]

Okay, outstanding. That's quite a pair up in oysters and the oyster industry and delivering home run stuff on podcasts. But we'll take great life, huh?

[Kim Reuter]

Yep.

[Scott Luton]

Let's see here. And Tricia is dropping the link to. Well, she's saying hello to Felicia. I'll do that in a second. Patricia's dropping a link to the Morning Mood gonna be Supply Chain Live. So check it out there on YouTube. Now, Felicia. Felicia is one of our oldest and dearest friends. Felicia, great to see you. Via LinkedIn, she says, Sunny Sacrament. Hello from the National Retail Federation, the new home of the rla, formerly the Reverse Logistics Association. Great to see you, Felicia, and hope this finds you well. Great to have you. Okay, let's see here. Kim. We need to put one more event. One. One event, one resource on folks radars. Let's start with the event, folks. Mark your calendars as the Supply Chain and Logistics Summit is set for November 3rd and 4th in West Lake Village, California. That just sounds like a beautiful place. West Lake Village. Now, this event is an invitation only premium summit bringing leading senior procurement executives and innovative suppliers and solution providers all together. The Supply Chain Logistics Summit content is aligned with key procurement challenges and interests, relevant market developments, and practical and progressive ideas and strategies adopted by successful pioneers. Love that, folks. You can learn more at the link we're gonna be dropping right there in the chat. You ever been to Westlake Village, California, Kim?

[Kim Reuter]

I have not. I have only ever been to la, to be totally honest.

[Scott Luton]

Really? We're gonna have to exchange notes. I have not been to LA yet. Did you eat some good food while in la?

[Kim Reuter]

You know, it's always for work and conferences, so yeah.

[Scott Luton]

Never you get a chance to eat. Right. Well, Trisha's dropping the link to your latest opportunity to visit California at the Supply Chain Logistics Summit. And we have got Amanda confirm who this is. Shropshire. I think I'm saying it right this time. Get confirmed there. But great to see you here today. Looking forward to your take on the conversations. Andrew. I knew that was Andrew. Andrew, great to see you. Okay, one more thing, folks. Great news. We're about to bring on our guest, Rich Bulger, and he's bringing it with him today. He always brings it with him, much like Kim. But here is an outstanding piece of industry news that you've got to have on your radar because our dear friend Keith Moore, his auto schedule team has decided to roll out a free warehouse agent to the whole market on October 7, which is tomorrow. If you want help forecasting labor against demand, or analyzing load boards and thinking through labor shifts or draft incomes for carriers, or crunching numbers, doing some data analysis, hey, use the warehouse decision Agent for free. You can do it all in minutes rather than day. Do all that work in minutes rather than days. We're dropping a link so you can check it out right there. Kim, that is good news to me about you.

[Kim Reuter]

That's an excellent opportunity to see if you can make some optimizations.

[Scott Luton]

It is. And get time back. You're making time, and we never get an opportunity to do that. All right, so y' all, check that out. Trisha's dropping the link. All right, well, we have a terrific guest joining us here on the Buzz, powered by Auto Scheduler. Folks, you're going to love. Rich Bulger is a visionary leader and champion of sustainability in the reverse logistics and circular economy sectors. Now, he brings more than 20 years of experience to the table, having done big supply chain things for those titans known as Cisco with a C and Verizon. Now, Rich is the author of what some are calling the new bible for the reverse logistics industry. I got my copy right here. I'm gonna get Rich to sign for me one day. That new bible is called Going Circular. The Evolution of Reverse Logistics into a Competitive Weapon. He's also the creator of the Circular logistics masterclass, which he's delivered across the globe. Please join me in welcoming my friend Rich Bulger, founder, chief circularity officer of all things circular.

[Rich Bulger]

Hey.

[Scott Luton]

Hey, Rich. How you doing?

[Rich Bulger]

What a great introduction. Thank you so much, Scott. Kim, great to see you.

[Scott Luton]

We try and have both of y' all on the same show, folks. We're gonna be able to solve some problems today. So, Rich, welcome in again. We've been looking forward to this conversation, huh?

[Kim Reuter]

We sure have one of my favorite topics.

[Scott Luton]

Oh, excellent. All right, we're gonna have to have a bonus buzz hour. Sounds like. But, Rich, it is National Coaches Day. It's Australian Labor Day. It's World Archite Day. I want to dial it in on National Noodle Day. I just had FA pho, the great Vietnamese dish, with my son Ben, who've been eating ever since I was in the Air Force forever ago, Rich. I could eat it every day. It's delicious. And I'm going to ask you all, starting with you, Rich, what is one of your favorite noodles dishes, and where.

[Rich Bulger]

Do you get it? This one kind of hurts my heart because what I found at my age is I've got to live on a keto diet, so there's no carbs for me. So all this conversation is doing is making me hungry. But I do have to say that my favorite pasta and I wish my door was open. So my Wife could hear me say it, but she makes the best lasagna I've ever had.

[Scott Luton]

Okay.

[Rich Bulger]

I could have one noodle dish. It would be her lasagna.

[Scott Luton]

Oh, Rich, we're going to make sure she hears that. And that sounds delicious. Although lasagna is not my favorite Italian pasta dish. But Amanda makes a mean one too.

[Rich Bulger]

Like it cold. Like the. The lasagna is better than the hot lasagna in my opinion. Okay. Might be weird like that.

[Scott Luton]

Kim. That's me. Tough to beat. What is one of your favorite noodles dishes?

[Kim Reuter]

I'm with you. It's Phoenix, but I used to get it. I don't even know if this place is around anymore. I hope that it is, but when I lived in Seattle, I don't even know it had a name, but it was a little fuss stand in the Greyhound bus station in downtown Seattle. And they made hands down the best I have ever had in my life. And I have traveled everywhere, but those ladies were back there cooking at like 6am in the morning every day. Fantastic.

[Scott Luton]

Man, that sounds delicious. That's always a hole in wall places, the unexpected places where you get the best.

[Kim Reuter]

It was kind of a little scary. Like it was, you know, you were. You're like this place.

[Scott Luton]

Okay, well, you know, if anything, if anything can overcome fear, it is a delicious bowl of I tell you what. All right, Rich and Kim, now that we're all starving, I know what I'm getting for a dinner tonight. Got to get down to business. We got a lot to get to here on the Buzz. Powered by Auto Scheduler. I want to start with this. All those big investment commitments we've seen rolled out in the news, right? Especially here in the US Tons and tons of billion dollar announcements. Seems like over the last year or so. However, as I've been trying to tell folks, every announcement doesn't mean thousands of new jobs is guaranteed to happen and come to fruition. Heck, just look at the Rivian story here in Georgia that I've been tracking for several years now. Right? I won't beat that dead horse today. But check out this interesting read from the Wall Street Journal here recently. It focuses on a $28 billion investment by intel or announced investment by intel in New Albany, Ohio. So here's a few highlights. In 2022, intel announced it was making a $28 billion investment to build two semiconductor factories, probably foundries, in New Albany, which is right outside of Columbus. Right. The company said folks could expect 7,000 construction jobs and 3,000 new highly paid manufacturing jobs by 2025 now, after changing CEOs and laying off about 30% of its workforce, the new plants in Ohio won't open before 2030 or as I would say, if at all. That's the thing with these massive investments that are announced right. Global market forces change and evolve so fast. And until I see folks getting a paycheck or production, turning out new products and up and running, I'm a big skeptic. One last thing here before I get Rich and Kim's thoughts. Look at this shot they had in the Wall Street Journal story. Cal's like, what the heck's going on? Look how there's a construction cranes in the background and evidently they've been sitting idle for quite some time.

[Kim Reuter]

Those are cheap to keep sitting around.

[Scott Luton]

Oh really?

[Kim Reuter]

Oh yeah. They don't cost anything to sit there. I'm being totally facetious. Well, they cost thousands of dollars a day for cranes to just sit there.

[Scott Luton]

And it doesn't make a real pretty picture. But I digress. I digress. All right. So Rich, when you read this story and you're seeing, you know, seeing all these big announcements get rolled out, your thoughts?

[Rich Bulger]

Yeah, I feel like you do, Scott. There's a lot of things that are easy to say, tough to do, where companies go through and make these big grandiose statements. But then when the economics fall apart, the tune changes. In my world, in the circular economy world, underneath the last administration, there was a big push for all things sustainable, ESG, circular economy, 2030, environmental commitments, all were made and you saw all these titles pop up of recirculation programs and VPs of sustainability. And now that the administration has changed, you're starting to see those teams slowly get laid off, right? And slowly people walking back or just not talking about pledges that they made before. So in my view, the economics of a circular economy, promoting reuse over recycling and doing it in a profitable way, finding out how to make money not by making more things, but by maximizing the value of things that have already been made is a much more impactful way to go through and make a difference than these commitments that sound great but fall apart when they're put under any stress.

[Scott Luton]

Good stuff there, Rich. Good stuff. On a similar topic, Kim, what do you read into in these stories like this one?

[Kim Reuter]

Well, most of them are politically motivated at this point, unfortunately. And I would love to see manufacturing come back to the United States. I'm a big proponent of blue collar work and us bringing all that trade education back into the schools. But the fact of the matter is that in order to start manufacturing here in the United States, we have to have actual manufacturing facilities. Facilities. And those facilities are going to come from overseas. And so we kind of have ourselves in a little bit of a catch 22 right now. So I'm hoping we can get through it, but I don't expect anything meaningful soon.

[Scott Luton]

Yeah, that's good stuff there. You and Rich both. And folks, we can relate. For those of you that may be tuned in from Georgia, especially the Atlanta area and, and all parts just east, The Rivian is promising 7, 000 jobs and it's mega site. It's been on hold for. They've broken ground twice now. Yeah, that's largely been on hold for a couple years. And of course we know that the EV market has been evolving fast. But I'll talk a lot about Rivian. It's just, it's interesting to see real status checks on where all These announcements are. 28 billion. 28 billion. Oh my gosh. All right, so Trisha's sharing the story. Y' all go check out the Wall Street Journal. There's a lot more to it. And Trisha, you are based in Ohio. I'd love to get your take if you want to weigh in on your prognostications. They going to come to fruition just like it promised? We'll see. All right, so from one tough topic to another, the government shutdown here in the U.S. so how does the U.S. government shutdown impact the global supply chain industry? Well, my friend Richard Howells is answering that question over at in his latest article over at Forbes. Let me unpack this a little bit. Richard makes a great point up front. Quote, no business does it alone and we all rely on a network of suppliers, contract manufacturers and logistics service providers and a whole bunch more where a local issue or delay quickly becomes global. End quote. It's a good one, Richard. Richard expects to see the shutdown to impact and cause regulatory delays and challenges with compliance. Think imports and exports. Market volatility. Even more cost due to workarounds that companies undoubtedly will be exploring sustainability and maybe even ethical concerns. Think animal shipments because not all shipments can afford extra days or weeks built up in ports. Good read here, Richard. And Forbes. So Rich, how does the US Government shutdown impact global supply chains? Your thoughts?

[Rich Bulger]

So I'm going to take a look at it from the the reverse logistics in the used market space. Because one of the unintended benefits of a shutdown like this is when you have a supply chain that has a kink in it and New things aren't coming in. Laws of supply and demand, if the supply of products is used, actually increases the value of used things because people need products to live their, their daily lives. We saw the same thing with COVID When Covid shut down supply chains and things couldn't come into the country. This whole system of circular platforms matching used supply with used demand, oftentimes used things had a higher value than new things. Or when Texas had the ice storm a few years ago, used generators were going for more than new generators because there weren't new generators to sell. So one of the unintended benefits of things like tariffs that increase the the cost of goods or shutdowns where material doesn't flow from a circular mindset, the value of used things is greater. And in the US we have a really good infrastructure from a technology perspective to match supply and demand. We're able to weather these things, I think a little bit better than other parts of the world.

[Scott Luton]

I got stuff there Rich and I always, I love getting. I bought the kids a remanufactured Nintendo we one year. We got months and months of goodness out of that. Especially we bowling, man. Very competitive loot and family game of we bowling. Kim. US Government shutdown. I love Richard's perspective there on kind of the re economy side of things. Your thoughts?

[Kim Reuter]

Well, I'm going to do something odd. I have actually more optimistic view than the article and that's not normally not my way. I normally have a more pessimistic view. You know, I read the article and through, you know, we've modernized customs a little bit. You know, a lot of stuff is automated now. Yes, we will see some slowdowns, but I don't think it's going to be as catastrophic as we think it is. I've been through a couple government and custom shutdowns through my career and through a lot of the ace modernization and the automation that happens. I think it will be less impactful than we expect. But if you do get pulled on a manual, it's going to take a while to get that through. I'm going to tell you right now. So try keep it straight, keep your entries clean. You don't want to do anything to trigger any sort of exam right now.

[Scott Luton]

That's excellent. Been there, done that perspective, Kim. And you know what's interesting? Comparing and contrasting this shutdown versus some of those we've all maybe lived through in the past, this one may just be a little bit longer. I mean, I think we're going on what about a week just under maybe. And the parties, they seem to be a bit more rigid in their positions.

[Kim Reuter]

They're just dangerous.

[Rich Bulger]

One of the things I'd love to see come from this is and I've done a lot of work lately in cross border E commerce meetings, did a show called Next E Commerce Supply Chain Hub in Hong Kong last year. They just did their one in Belgium a few weeks ago where things are made container shipped to the US and then broken up and they go final mile. If someone decides to return something or decides that, you know, if it's undelivered for whatever reason, the reaggregation and shipping back to the country is tough. And a lot of times with the just keep it type of return program, the customers are told to keep it and discard it or they're sold for pennies in the pound. But if there's a smart distribution system where those things that come over could be graded, categorized as new and fulfilled from the US instead of the next one getting filled from overseas, it's cheaper, it's much more environmentally friendly and in times of government volatility having a resilient infrastructure that could go through and fulfill the next new thing when a product in new condition already lives here. I think the longer these types of shutdowns take place, the more creative companies are willing to become to invest in how to keep things in production.

[Scott Luton]

Well said Rich to you and Kim, as promised, you're both on here today. One last thing before we get into manufacturing. In this next article I want to call back out Felicia. So Felicia and the team, formerly rla, now part of the NRF ecosystem, hosted a great private invitation only leadership event back in Dallas last month. Rich and I both were there and one of the interesting things that no one's thinking about except for the operations themselves perhaps is tariffs aren't only for forward logistics, all the returns and you know, things coming back into different countries and this country, they got more tariff headaches there. Oh my gosh. You need an apicus or a modern equivalent of app. Keep the numbers straight or rate resources information like nrf. Okay Rich and Kim, we are fresh off as I shift gears. Fresh off Manufacturing Day 2025 last Friday and now we're celebrating manufacturing industry all month long in October. Manufacturing Month. One of the biggest topics at play in all industries, especially manufacturing is workforce development and really overall talent management. Interesting read here in Manufacturing do, which touches on a few workforce training challenges and solutions out in the US manufacturing industry. So Daryl Edwards Kim Enriched gets us started with a great comment level Setting comment He's a professor at the University of Tennessee and he makes really an undeniable point when he says, quote, when a large share the manufacturing base left the US over the past few decades, many states and local communities began to de emphasize skills and trade education at the high school level. His colleague and my friend Alan Amling shares an intriguing finding from their recent research on manufacturing and reshoring. Allen's quoted by saying, one of the unexpected findings in our research was the skills gap in trades, electricians, welders, carpenters, plumbers, masons, et cetera. If we're going to bring manufacturing, more manufacturing to the US we need more people in the skilled trades, end quote. We've got a lot of work to do to truly revolutionize manufacturing this country and we got to keep it real with the challenges and the current reality that we face as we try to rebuild it to Rich, I know you're passionate about workforce development and education and training. Your thoughts on what this workforce development challenge we got in the manufacturing industry here?

[Rich Bulger]

Yeah, and I'm going to focus on the remanufacturing and the reverse side since that's a.

[Scott Luton]

There's a trend developing here, Rich. There's a trend.

[Rich Bulger]

No. And it just so happens if you go through and scale just the US economy Interops says that their retail economy last year was a $5.2 trillion business. Unwanted returns. I changed my mind. I want my money back. Cost retailers $890 billion and sending things back the size of the secondary market now where people are matching used supply with used demand, also flowing through reverse logistics where you assess cosmetic what does it look like functional? How does it work to help product go good, better, best to the next customer. 800 billion. You add those two together, it's a $1.6 trillion impact. A $5.2 trillion reverse economy, retail economy, all flowing through reverse. I've been now in six different countries. We've taught 13 different masterclasses. We just did one at the reverse logistics leadership summit where we had 43 industry leaders that do reverse every single day. Yeah, and I ask a question, I use a software program where people can go through and respond and the answers fly up. How many people that are doing reverse ever took one formal course on reverse logistics? Not a college class that mentioned it as a paragraph or two, about zero hands but a formal course. How many were just thrown into the deep end to figure it out? How many shadowed someone? I didn't ask if you're lucky how many shadow with someone that was good how many are still trying to figure it out? You're right. At the RLA summit, the best of the best, there was no one that took a formal course. Now doing this in six different countries, 13 events. I've only had one person ever say they took a formal course and I recognized that person because he was one of my professors at the American Public University which is the only college on the planet that I found that has a four year and master's degree program. In reverse, it's one of the hardest parts of supply chain and logistics. I'm keen to look at the supply chain logistics summit agenda because if there's not reverse professionals there, I want to talk about it. Because one half of a product circular journey is moving away from the point of use. No one knows how to do it. At my old company we had a charter school that was right next to our facility and we offered an intern program where we were able to go through bring someone in for the remanufacturing, bring someone in for marketing, bring someone in for finance. Circular finance is different than your traditional manufacturing and distribution finance but huge gap, huge problem. And we definitely need to invest in training on how to do this important part of a product's journey.

[Scott Luton]

So I appreciate there's a, there's a massive problem touching all sorts of bites of the whole enchilada including of course the wrinkle Rich spotlighted. Kim, if we're going to rebuild manufacturing here, how are we going to have the workforce ready to explode in all these new jobs, huh?

[Kim Reuter]

Well, you're going to have to start to learn how to change oil again in high school and sew buttons because that's what we learned when we were in high school. Yeah, we have to bring education back. The trade education. You know, I live in a rural area in Virginia. Some of the people that of my colleagues and my friends here are part of associations that are trying to get more mechanics, trying to get mechanic education. We can't get enough mechanics to work on the big equipment that we have here for the farming and even for cars. I mean just basic trade skills are becoming fewer and fewer. But there's a highlight here because there was an article probably about six months or so ago. There is a school in Philadelphia that teaches welding as part of a high school program. And a kid out of there, his first job out of high school, no college debt, 70k.

[Scott Luton]

Nice, I love that. I love a good practical story. And you we need to do more. Just like that school did in Philadelphia. Just like that. Now welding professional yeah. And to your greater point, we are, I mean you know, and we and it really starts. We got to go all the way up upstream.

[Kim Reuter]

Yeah.

[Scott Luton]

And parents, we've got to really be real about all the different ways that folks can find success. Not all through a four year college degree.

[Rich Bulger]

Right.

[Scott Luton]

It's all different. Just like the example Kim put out there. One quick tip folks, because mechanics and maintenance professionals are in big time demand. Military man folks that the professional working on aircraft or tanks or whatever. If you're not leaning in building a veteran pipeline, you are missing out. All right, really quick. T Squared says more field trips to factories give a good ground zero view of manufacturing's criticality in creating the things we need and the innovations in creating them. I'm a no sugar in Baltimore did it for me. T squared love that. And let's see, Morgan MBA program pushed this in 2011. I think the field trip to factories and stuff. And he is glad that he went. I am too. T square. We may not have met and you may not be holding the fort down for us on YouTube had that not taken place. Felicia is also sharing NRF Rev. Big event coming up in January in New York. So if you love I bet Rich is going to be there if y' all love all things reverse and returns management.

[Rich Bulger]

Check it out.

[Scott Luton]

Okay, so Kim and Rich, we got a lot more and I'm behind, man. I am behind. Today we're going to try to get get it back on on track. I got a couple resources I want to share with folks. Let's start with this, folks. You know we've been covering the US Bank Freight Payment Index for years. Kim, you've joined me on some of those shows.

[Kim Reuter]

Those are great shows.

[Scott Luton]

It is lots of great actionable data at your fingertips right now. Our friends at US bank released their Q2 2025 Freight Payment Index on August 5th and they're going to be releasing their Q3 index on Thursday, October 30th. We'll be having a show probably a week or two later to dive all in. It's going to be interesting to see in this upcoming edition if the surprises we saw in Q2, including the national and across the board regional shipment volume increases. We'll see if all that continues. Now it was speculated in August that those increases were perhaps a result of tariff volatility what we were talking about a little a little while ago versus true indicators of a long awaited market turnaround and a whole Bunch more on October 30th. This week is a big week for the Supply Chain industry with CSCMP Edge 25 taking place in National Harbor, Maryland. I bet that's a beautiful place. Our friends at US bank will be there in Booth 923. That's right, write it down. 923. I encourage you to stop by, say hello and learn more about how they can help you and your business. And be sure to sign up for the upcoming releases of the free U.S. bank freight payment index. Trish's own it. She's dropping a link right there in the chat to do just that One more thing Rich and Kim It's a resource Monday let's talk about Easy Post They've automated United States Postal Service claims processing to recover funds effortlessly for lost or damaged packages. I had to say that word ten times, Kim. Enrich effortlessly. That does not roll off my tongue. It covers up to $100 in built in insurance right this claims processing from Easypost. Best of all, zero upfront cost and Easypost offers an industry best 90% success rate with refunds being credited directly to your account. It's easy. You can dive in to simplify your shipping and save big. Learn more at the link that Trisha is dropping right there, including easypost.com okay, all back now to this Power panel with Rich and Kim. Rich, let's talk about orchestration for a second. And Kim, not in the way you and I talk about it oftentimes forward orchestration. Rich was blogging the other day about orchestration more related to the reverse and returns perspective. You can find this on LinkedIn too, Rich. Why is this critical?

[Rich Bulger]

So if you think of orchestration, you know, some of the more common orchestration platforms, you really don't consider orchestration. Airbnb is one, for instance. They match people who have houses with people who need to find a place to stay. They make sure that the house has insurance. They make it easy for the people renting to pay, the people buying through a platform. And it's seamless on both sides. Uber is another orchestration platform that matches people with cars, people that need rides, and there's ways to go through through star ratings and make people feel safe. I've been vlogging a lot since other than just posting on LinkedIn. I find that blogging makes it more personal. There's a lot of AI out there as well that you can kind of get caught up in. So trying to speak to Gen Z and millennials in a different way than I grew up. I'm finding blogging as a way to go through and send a message that's resonating. But Recycle Global Exchange is an orchestration platform that allows people that have complex footprints to find local recyclers without having to go through and do RFPs for all kinds of different locations, get different lists in different ways, and have to go through and compile all of this ESG type of reporting waiver cycle. Global Exchange works like if you have a whole bunch of retail stores or cell towers or you're a hotel that has infrastructure that needs to get decommissioned, instead of going through and finding all these places, they're on the Recycled Global Exchange platform. You onboard the platform, money is exchanged through the platform, reporting is exchanged in a consistent way through the platform. And it allows you to go through and have a real impact on recycling miles. So instead of using a centralized platform where you go through and you're sending things to two or three different spots in the U.S. anything's 900 miles when there's a facility that might be 30 miles down the road.

[Scott Luton]

Right.

[Rich Bulger]

You can get things to their end state at a lower impact to the environment. And what I also love about this field is if you're transporting less and typically you can go through and pay less for shipping or logistics to get it to the right spot. So it's an instant RFP all through an orchestrated platform that allows you to go through and make sure that you're getting the best deals real time. You can see the bids that, that are coming in. You can drive things to R2 vendors if that's your love language. But you can see what is the logistical cost, what is the recovery? Can you go through and get a sort and settle or an offer on the equipment all through one platform without going through a RFP process, which I live through at Cisco and Verizon, it sounds easy indeed.

[Scott Luton]

So shout out to Recycled Global Exchange. And Kim, on a greater note, orchestration forward or reverse, it's where we are and where we should be in 2025, where we should have been maybe years ago. To your thoughts, Kim.

[Kim Reuter]

So reverse logistics has been, you know, I worked at Nordstrom, so in Nordstrom's average return rate is about 70%. And that shoes and tailored clothes like it's, it's going to happen. And so reversal, just a huge issue there. And yes, it's about time that we get some visibility and some optimization into managing that reverse logistics. Because if you are, you know, if we take Nordstrom as an example or any luxury retailer, you have about four weeks to sell your product at full price because you have four inventory Turns a year. So you have about four to six weeks to get a full price out of that. If your reverse logistics is taking 10, guess what?

[Scott Luton]

No bueno.

[Kim Reuter]

No bueno.

[Scott Luton]

Kim, love that. And I can't wait to. Your book. You got to write a book on your time at Amazon and Nordstrom. And Rich, you too, at Cisco and Verizon. Oh, that's right, I got a copy. What am I thinking? Orchestration, though. I'm going to be talking about this in Vegas actually, with Richard soon this week. And I love. And Rich, I love your example of Airbnb. Right? Get folks on the same platform, right? Eliminate the need for one off emails or spreadsheets or all that stuff. In many cases, eliminate the need to even make a decision. Let's let technology make some of the complex and some of the simple decisions and save and create time, the beautiful human element. So if you're not getting orchestration from one of the great providers of. In this golden age of supply chain tech, look into it today. Your team will be very grateful. Nadim, great to see you today via LinkedIn. I always love. On the bus, he was calling out the easy postcard. Nice idea. Hey, Nadim, I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't. That's above my pay grade, my friend. But great to have you here today. All right, Rich, let's see here. Where are we going next here? I think I want to talk about. Oh, okay. I'm checking my clock, see how much time we got. Because, Kim and Rich, this could be an hour or more. So, Rich, the TikTok version of more returns. Tell us why. When we got, when we got together at early private leadership event, you and I, we got an interview coming out soon and you made a great case for more returns. Why is this such a big opportunity?

[Rich Bulger]

Yeah, it's a, it's a. It's a misnomer, actually. The textbook that was used when I got my master's degree program was called Going Backwards. It was written in 1999 and it was this premise that all returns are bad and you want to try to drive them down. Sell something, you really don't want to have to return it and give someone their money back. So the whole linear sales process led to linear returns, where things were going back to the source and goal was to beat them down. The barrier to the circular economy is the success of the linear economy. Because in a circular economy, there's some return programs that you actually want to drive up. Think of trade in. When I started Verizon's trade in program, giving someone a hundred dollars for their old thing helped spend on the next new thing. It helps sell more new things faster. You want to sell more things. Giving people money in their pocket was a good thing. And then when I took that product that I paid a hundred for and I sent it to the right place, I got paid a profit for going through and sending it to the right place. So it was a new revenue stream. So these circle programs like Trade in Lease Product as a Service are actually designed to go through and get the product back into the hands of someone that can go through and provide value. And there's competition for getting a used product. Think of the car industry where you want to sell new cars and you have a used car dealership. And the more money you get for your used car, the more you'll spend on your next new car. Then on the used car, you can sell warranty and finance, you can make profit on the car. Now, there was a study from ThredUp that over 70% of Gen Z are checking the resale value of their clothing before they buy it.

[Scott Luton]

Hmm.

[Rich Bulger]

Because they realize that the clothing isn't just the dollar purchase out, they're thinking of it as a net purchase. So if I spend a hundred dollars on a thing and I can get 30 back at the end of the season, well, then I'm only spending $70 on it.

[Scott Luton]

Right.

[Rich Bulger]

And what used to be relevant in retail and automotive, two really successful circular economies that no one calls circular, moved into mobility. Now it's down to. There's a company I talked to earlier this week on my podcast, use cardboard boxes.com, that are actually going through and taking used cardboard back, selling it and selling the cardboard at a lower rate like it. So if it could be done with packaging, it could be done with anything.

[Scott Luton]

Love it. All right, so Kim, more returns. My hunch. I'm not a reverse management returns management pro.

[Rich Bulger]

Right.

[Scott Luton]

That's not where I spent my time as a practitioner. But my hunch would be depending on the model, more returns might be great. And in other cases, more returns might not be so great. Your thoughts, Kim?

[Kim Reuter]

Yeah, I think you know what Rich is talking about is a reuse model. So trading in a product that I've used that I now no longer have purpose for and so I can resell it or what have you, and those are great. I have made my case for buying secondhand. I'm a huge secondhand buyer and I love it. But that's different than returns. So returns cost a lot of money when we talk about it in a retail perspective. And that's why companies are always trying to drive them down. And there's two things that happen when we have a return. One, the product is not sellable while it's in its return state while it's in logistics, and that's a lost opportunity. And second, the product does not always come back in 100% immaculate condition. So it could be quote unquote shop worn. It could not look new and that may affect its ability to be resold. So those are the two big drivers for like retail and e commerce. Companies are trying to reduce returns and you will notice that more like Amazon is more and more trying to be like, hey, if we only return half of the cost, you want to keep it. And what that is is a reflection of the cost for us to bring this product back to our facility outweighs the profit that we're going to make it when we get it back. So if we offer you that product, will you keep it because it's actually cheaper for us?

[Rich Bulger]

The way that that I've heard this phrase is you've got a linear return model, $890 billion given back. You want to try to go through and change your policies, introduce best practices to take that 890 billion down. You're putting seals on shoes so people can try them on without wearing them. And introducing wear is a change to how products are being made and shipped or warranty type of programs if something breaks, figuring out how to go through and solve the root cause failure so that doesn't happen. Linear return management is still very much needed and it's talked about in all things circular. You want to try to drive them down, then your circular return program, circular sales, circular finance to drive them up. Modern reverse logisticians need to both work both in the linear world and in the circular world because assessing what does something look like and how does it function to prepare it for its next life is a discipline needed in both linear and circular returns.

[Scott Luton]

Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that Rich and Kim, we'd be here for hours talking about these big topics and big opportunities. We're going to have y' all both back. We have a fast and furious finish, so I'm going to start with T Squared's comment. Customer input would definitely help in the realm of reverse logistics, particularly in finding out my products are being returned, barring planned obsolescence and no longer wanting the products. Good stuff there, T Squared. All right, fast and furious finish begins now. Want to start with all Things Circular. Rich launch. You've been at it for a while. Launched a new website a few weeks back. Give us an example or two of some of the work you've been doing. Really quick.

[Rich Bulger]

Yeah, Kim, you were talking about a rebranding. All Things Circular was initially started as a podcast. My co host, Vic the Arcy who's from the uk, we worked together at Cisco, she ran their reuse type of department. I fed inventory to her. We've got a female British European personality. I've got the US male driven personality. I like to say that Vic taught me angry British. We have a lively talk between the two of us, but we just launched our 32nd episode. We've got 50 that are recorded just to go through and have a place where we can talk about best practices for circular programs across a variety of industries and a variety of geographies. That has moved into a masterclass. That Dr. Peter Evans, he's got a Ph.D. from MIT and I have taught in six different countries 13 different times. We've got new shows that are added every day. We're doing some corporate work, doing specific strategy sessions and that's also led into our advisory work where we help companies find how to build a strategy for their second, third and fourth customer, how to leverage AI and ML. Doing some really good work through a company called Tallgrass AI, optimizing repair supply chains. You're seeing some blogs of me going to Philippines and Poland to go over and find out how to keep motherboards in circulation. So really what started as a podcast has turned into a business consultancy education, thought leadership platform. Peter's wrote several amazing white papers. So check out www.allthingcircular.com and you'll see the great things that we have going on.

[Scott Luton]

Outstanding. Tricia, is Johnny on the spot? We're dropping that link right there. Joshua is at a big time e commerce player, former army as well. Joshua says. I really appreciate the insight. Thank you all. Joshua, hope this finds you well down the end. Savannah. All right, Kim, let's see here. We'll talk about as we start to wrap. I'm gonna get a highlight from both of y' all on your podcast and then we're going to make sure we know everyone can connect. How to connect with it by Rich kind of already shared his but Tim, you've been cranking out. You've surpassed a th 100 episodes, almost a thousand 100 episodes, which is a big milestone. Most podcast, millions and millions of podcasts don't get past episode 10. Kim, what's one of your favorite recent episodes of the Morning Mood, soon to be renamed, I think, right?

[Kim Reuter]

Soon to be renamed. And I just want to give a shout out to you that you have supported me with my podcast, and I very much appreciate that. And you are the one that taught me that if you could get to 10, you had a shot. And I was like, all right. And I got to 10. I was like, okay, now let's do 100. So thank you for that. They're all great. But I think the one that got a lot of traction recently and ruffled a couple feathers was I gave my thoughts on what I think is going to happen with the steepship lines and how if they keep continuing in the way that they're doing. And I think I can sum that up in saying, take a look at FedEx, DHL and UPS.

[Scott Luton]

You know, if you're not. Kim always brings it and she always keeps it real. And. And you can find Morning Mood right there. The link. And when it renamed, the link still works, I believe, just fine. So check that out. You can check out the episode Kim just touched on. And we're also including Kim's LinkedIn. You'll see lots of snippets and snackables, you name it on LinkedIn. So follow or connect with her there. But, folks, all that to say for not ruffling some feathers. We're not probably talking about the right things as my hunch. Right? And we can ruffle feathers respectfully and actually make progress with folks that don't view things the same way. But regardless, you know, there's an old saying, Kim and Rich, I'll probably have heard it. I think it dates back from World War II and the old B17 bombers that went out on missions. When you're getting flack, that means you're getting close to being right, right, Kim?

[Kim Reuter]

I haven't heard that in forever. That's a good one.

[Scott Luton]

It's the apropos. All right, Rich, same question for you. We're kind of running out of time here. There's so much more I want to pose to both of y'.

[Rich Bulger]

All.

[Scott Luton]

But, Rich, how can folks track you down? You mentioned a URL. They can find all things circular to podcasts wherever they get to. Podcasts. You got master classes. You go out and talk around the globe. How can folks track you down?

[Rich Bulger]

Rich, my love language is LinkedIn. So they share LinkedIn. You had to find me personally. We have all things circular also available on LinkedIn. We've got a huge episode coming up with Sharia Ramadi the CEO of Reconnects coming live on October 22, that I'm super excited about. Very passionate individual. We talk about AI with human in the loop. We talk about automated grading. We talk about finding the second, third and fourth customer, automated disposition. And one of my favorite things is we also talk about a common myth that we like to bust. And his was inertia isn't a strategy. You've got to have a critical, curious and data driven approach. Look for that specific episode because his passion for his daughter, his passion for his employees and education is very inspiring and worth a watch.

[Scott Luton]

Rich, love that. You know what, we're going to, as soon as that podcast publishes, shoot it over our way. We're going to make sure our audience gets that one. And great, Kim, we're going to get that steamship episode and do the same because you both are creating types of conversations we need to be having and learning from out in industry. It's been a pleasure to be with you both here today. Felicia, one more quick comment here. So Felicia shares in reference to high school curriculum, CTIA is partnered with IRESCUE and Operation Breakthroughs Ignition Lab to develop a unique curriculum that equips students with the skills to diagnose and repair Chromebook hardware that is outstanding. And she's got a link to that. So folks, find Felicia right here and check out that link. If programs like this appeal to you, they appeal to me. That and the Philadelphia program Kim was talking about. And of course a lot of the professional development opportunities at Rich and the All Things Circular crew are putting out there. Good stuff. Okay. As we wrap today, a jam packed edition of the Buzz, an addition that needs a second hour. No one has time for a second hour, two hour long podcast. But I would invest the time today with Rich and Ken. But I want to thank our guest, Rich Bulger with all things Circular. Rich, always a pleasure. I look forward to seeing you soon.

[Rich Bulger]

You bet. Thank you, Scott. I appreciate the invitation.

[Scott Luton]

You bet. And Kim Reuter of the Morning Mood. You can go check that out on YouTube. Kim, appreciate all the great work you're doing including in our seafood industry, helping probably independent businesses find more success and profitability and new products, you name it.

[Kim Reuter]

Hopefully we can talk about it the.

[Scott Luton]

Next time I'm on.

[Kim Reuter]

Like we'll have our website up and outstanding.

[Scott Luton]

I look forward to that. And we'll bring on one of those oyster farmers too. We talked about that before talking about that.

[Kim Reuter]

We're gonna do that.

[Scott Luton]

We are gonna do that. So big thanks to Rich and Kim. Big thanks to man and Trisha behind the scenes making production happen. Really appreciate that. Most importantly, thanks to all of y' all that tuned in today, listening. You're watching, you're commenting, you name it. I know we couldn't hit everybody's comments or questions. Really appreciate y' all making the buzz part of your weekly schedule. So one last thing, though, folks. You got homework. Kim and Rich brought it here today as we knew they would. You got to take one thing you heard here from one of these leaders here today, put it into practice, share it with your team, do something with it. Deeds, not words. That's how we're going to keep transforming global supply chain. Forward in reverse, Rich. Forward in reverse. With all that said, on behalf of the entire Supply Chain now team Scott Luden, challenge you do good.

[Rich Bulger]

Give forward.

[Scott Luton]

Be the change that's needed. We'll see you next time right back here on Supply Chain Now. Thanks.

[Rich Bulger]

Bye. Join the Supply Chain now community.

[Scott Luton]

For more supply chain perspectives, news and.

[Rich Bulger]

Innovation, check out supply chain now.com subscribe.

[Scott Luton]

To Supply Chain now on YouTube and.

[Rich Bulger]

Follow and listen to Supply Chain Now. Wherever you get your podcasts.