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Supply Chain Now
The Never Normal: Successful Leadership in an Age of Constant Disruption
01:01:13
In this episode of Supply Chain Now's Never Normal series, Scott W. Luton is joined by regular Supply Chain Now hosts Karin Bursa, CEO of NIRAKIO, Scott DeGroot, Managing Director of the Global Supply Chain Institute at The University of Tennessee, and Jake Barr, CEO of BlueWorld Supply Chain Consulting, for a candid, experience-driven conversation on what it actually takes to lead through continuous disruption.
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- [00:00]
A
Am I doing something that matters? And the second is, does anybody care? And so helping especially people who are early in their career understand how their role and their contribution connects into the bigger picture, I think is really important.
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B
Welcome to Supply Chain now, the number one voice of Supply Chain. Join us as we share critical news, key insights, and real supply chain leadership from across the globe, one conversation at a time. Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are. Scott Luton with you here on Supply Chain now. Folks, in September 2025, we kicked off a new series here at Supply Chain now that where we gathered a panel of elite supply chain senior leaders. Kind of like the 18, right? Even maybe had Ba Baraka somewhere driving a van. But we should. They shared their perspective on a multitude of topics, but they all focused on the big theme of this continued never normal that global business continues to find itself in.
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C
Right.
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B
A never normal that continues to evolve by the day, sometimes by the hour. And since that first September installment and all the feedback that we received from it, we've endured several installments of the Never Normal series. So today, I'm delighted to be with you along with a few of my smartest friends. I'm telling you, some of the best of the best as I host this newest episode of the series, all back by popular demand. We're going to touch on a variety, a wide variety of topics. And even better yet, we want to hear from all of y'.
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D
All.
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B
With all that said, want to get to work? Welcome in this special panel comprised of industry leaders that all also happen to serve as Supply Chain now co hosts. I know you've seen them in a variety of our programming. You know them, you love them. Or if you like me, you know them and love them. I bet you do, too. So I want to welcome in Corinne Bursa, CEO of Neracchio, Scott DeGroote, managing director of the Global Supply Chain Institute at the University of Tennessee, and Jake Barr, CEO and principal at Blue World Supply Chain Consulting. Let's bring them in. Hey. Hey, Corinne. How we doing today?
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A
Doing great, doing great. Glad to be here with you and the rest of this esteemed panel.
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B
Man, I got to make sure I got my credentials in order with the three of y'.
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A
All.
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B
Hey, Scott the Groot, how you doing?
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C
Mighty, mighty good, my friend. And like Karen, it's, it's a pleasure to be here. And what a great group of people we have to talk about.
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B
And we do today. We do, Professor. We do. And Jake Barr, the John Wayne global supply chain I've spent time with you a little bit this week as well. Wonderful to see you again.
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D
I am just going to close my mouth and listen to
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C
what do you think chances. What do you think the chances are, Corinne?
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A
You're pretty slim.
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B
Yeah, about zero. Zero. All right, so we have a very unique fun warm up question. Corinne, Scott and Jake, first time we've ever done this in we're approaching episode 1600. So we've done a few, quite a few fun warm up questions. So here it is. You've got choices, folks, optionality. So pick your favorite one to answer. I'm just going to read through this for folks that may be listening. Option A is best leadership advice you've ever received. Option B, biggest leadership mistake you've ever made. Or option C, one habit that makes you a better leader. And by the way, if you don't notice, that graphic shows folks moving mountains just like the three of y' all do. So, Corrine, I'm starting with you, my friend. Which of those questions would you like to address?
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A
I'll take option A for 500.
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B
Go right ahead.
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A
So the best leadership advice, the first part is actually pretty simple and it is that the function of leadership is to produce more leaders, not more followers, more leaders. And that really clicked for me when I connected it to the fact that analytics offer insights, but emotions help drive decision making and motivate your team. And the most important emotion in business is probably trust, right? Trust in yourself, trust in your team, trust that you built the right operating rhythm or model and trust in the way you make decisions. And then that has now evolved into, I think, the ability to connect both the analytics and insights, the emotions. But to tell the story, understand what those facts and analytics are telling. You know how to connect it to the business goals and help that team that you're leading understand how it all fits together.
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B
Love it. Facts, not feelings. I, I thought you were going to go there and spike the football on that.
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A
I know. Yeah. I need some feelings in here too though. When you're leading, you need that emotion. You got to connect, you got to build trust. And I know we say that all the time, but when you're in a never normal world that we live in now, I think trust is even more important than it has been in the past.
- [05:16]
B
That's right. The power of empathy comes to my mind. Good stuff there. So back to the board and Corinne, if I had $500, would have gotten $1,000. Great work. All right, so let's see here. We're going to go next to Jake. Jake Your choice of the litter.
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D
I never been one to conform, so I'm actually going to take two of them.
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B
Okay.
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D
For a thousand. All right. So the first piece is I.
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C
Extra credit.
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D
Jake. This is why I love K so much. Fundamentally, she hit on the, the very basic thing. One of the most exceptional pieces of advice I got very early on was my job was to do such an exceptional job at developing my people. They didn't need me anymore. Because if you do that, if you invest in others as a leader, then it opens up other opportunities for you. Right. So you've invested in the organization to such an extent that they simply don't require you to make any of the calls. Right. Now, Corinne also dropped another bomb there at the end, which is very, very relevant because I also was blessed with another leader that, that told me straight up, hey, look, you do not have to be the smartest person in the room. What you have to be is the person that can energize and mobilize people to be able to accomplish the impossible.
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B
Man, we are getting. We might just stay on these three questions. Rest hour. Good stuff, Jake. Well done. So, Scott, I tell you, usually it's good to bat and clean up kind of after everybody's answer, but Corinne and Jake really set a high bar. Your thoughts on your option. Your, but your, your option still, Scott.
- [06:58]
C
Yeah, no good. I, I mean it's, it's good stuff. And it reminds me, I'm what habit makes you a better leader? And there's not just one, of course, but kind of builds off of what Jake and Corinne talked about. I was in charge of all the production planning for a major product line at Kimberly Clark a number of years ago. And I was really set on being like, right, like I was going to be correct, technically correct, mathematically correct. There was going to be no better answer. And you know, after about six months, my boss sat me down. He said, you know, it's good to be right but not self righteous. And so this, this idea that really hit me just like it just did y'.
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D
All.
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C
And so what, you know, what is, what's my personal habit from that point forward is take time every day. What am I learning? What am I observing? Write it down. Have some sort of plan to improve upon this point because, you know, to the points that Corinne and Jake both made, you can be right. But if no one's listening to you, what does it matter? I will stick with that one. You know, have some self awareness and try to improve yourself every day.
- [08:13]
B
I'm going to answer A twist on option A and option B. Now, I've told this story before, but when I arrived at my first permanent duty station in the Air Force way back in 1996. So forever ago, 30 years ago, first time I really had a gruff boss. I went into my first day in the office. First day in our data analyst office. He sits me and my colleague down. We were both probably 18 years old. I turned 18 and basic. And one of the first things he says, he looks at me right now, he goes, you will fear me. And his name was Richard. I'll never forget it. And so that taught me a quick lesson I constantly think about. And of course, the era has changed. So much has changed since then. But who in their right mind would want to communicate that on someone's first day in their organization? So don't be Richard is one of the best leadership advices that I've lived that I'll never, ever forget in my life. So we're gonna write a book on three of Yalls responses that never normal beckons. Corinne, Scott, and Jake. I want to dive in by discussing one really big element of this new reality. So there is widespread discussion, and I'd say probably agreement about how disruption is now more of a permanent component rather of the modern supply chain operating model, the modern business operating model perhaps, you know, rather than irregular extracurricular challenges here and there.
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C
Right.
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B
So I want to ask you all, starting with Jake, and y' all get ready. I'm a buckle up for Jake. Jake, do you agree? Disagree. And why?
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D
I. I can go both ways, Scott. I mean, I. There has always been a constant flow of change that leaders have had to deal with. So to simply say, hey, we're in a unique period. We're always in a unique period. Leaders always have to deal with change. What has changed is the pace of it. Right. So the veracity of what you have to deal with, the amount of disruption, all that stuff. But. But that's why I kind of was going, you know, no. To say that leaders have to, you know, are dealing with change is just. It's untrue because they've always had to deal with change. The question is the pace of it. So that's where I'm. I'm stuck.
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A
Okay.
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B
I like it. I like that. I can.
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C
I can.
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B
I can roll with that. And. And you're keeping it real there, you know, Lord knows nothing in this life, it feels like, is so black and white.
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D
Right.
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B
A little bit of this, little bit of that.
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D
I think pressure cooker of turning the Intensity up is caused leaders to behave differently.
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B
Ah, yeah, Scott.
- [10:58]
C
Yeah. No, I just. And I know Corinne will as well. I think, number one, I agree with Jake in terms of this change has always been there, and leaders have always responded to it. However, the. The pace of. Of disruption and the amplitude of the changes. Industrial policy, of course, wars have always. We've always had wars. But the extent that the pressure on leaders to make decisions in the moment, I think is greater than ever. And I think fundamentally, many organizations, some are getting it right, but some organizations are not responding in a way that allows them to be nimble, to learn by doing, to act fast, to bring analytics, to bring decisions. They get stuck like deers in headlights. And I think in that regard, you know, we have to prepare ourselves and our organizations. If we have business continuity plans and scenario planning and advanced analytics to think through all the various options, we actually have to invest in operationalizing those options. It can't sit on a piece of paper or, you know, on a computer screen. Well, if this happens, we'll do that. Are we capable of doing that? Do we have these supply lines set up? Are they qualified? Do we have the inventory or the transport routes in place? Oh, you know, so I think to some degree, people are not really investing deeply enough to be resilient, as we would all like to be.
- [12:24]
A
I'm jumping in on there because, I mean, I agree with what both of y' all have said. I think that the disruptions, you know, the need for rapid response to. To a changing business environment's always been there, but our expectations are different now because of technology, so that we expect to be able to respond faster and to take action. So if I'm working in a culture that is still locked into, say, a monthly planning cadence and doesn't have a way to respond in shorter intervals that they're confident in, that's a problem. So to me, never normal means. In the past, supply chain was all about doing the repetitive things well and efficiently to plan that stable piece of the business. Well, now I think there's recognition that we can plan around the volatility so that we can mitigate the risk or we can harness a new opportunity. But to do that means we manage differently, we lead differently, and as Scott was saying, we use our technology differently as well to support that. You agree, Jake?
- [13:43]
D
I do, absolutely. I think we have also a fatal flaw in most leaders today because of the amplitude and the veracity of the decisions. They have forgotten the ability to separate what is, in my mind, assumptions from facts. Right. Because Everything is moving, so you get amped up on that. The second piece that really I think they're struggling with to a great extent is the inability to separate decisions into those that are reversible versus irreversible. It's like trying. Wait. With all of everything, the chaos, etc. Wait a minute. I've got to solve for cancer right now. No, you don't. What is the decision I need to make right now? And if I make it and it's wrong, is it reversible or not?
- [14:50]
B
Yes. Jake and Corinne and Scott. All right, Scott, really quick.
- [14:56]
C
You should go, because the three of us can just take your whole time.
- [14:59]
B
Well, we know we got to get to. So I've got about 37 more questions for this great panel right here. And by the way, shout outs. I want to add Scott the great. You've got the best beach wi fi I've ever seen in my life. Can y' all relate to that? Whenever I go to the beach, it's like everything's laggy. Scott, it's like you're at a. At an NBC studio or something down there at the beach. So next up, I got to get. Next up, Scott, we'll get your. Your coming in, but I want to talk about what might be. What is a common challenge, I think, for a lot of our daily leadership journeys kind of plays off of what Jake just shared. Leading when we don't have all the answers. Right. So all three of y' all have led through numerous transformations. Right. So I want to ask a couple questions here, and Scott, I'm going to start with you so you can revisit maybe your last thought. You want to add. How do leaders and their teams make confident, successful decisions when the future is so unclear and muddy and foggy? Scott?
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C
Yeah, no, it's great. And it does build on what Jake and Corinne were just saying, and that is a lot of people. You have to be comfortable leading in ambiguity, and you will have more granular that. We have more granular data than we've ever had. We've had more decision science and speed and scenario planning and supply chain mapping than we've ever had. And yet leaders will feel uncomfortable in the moment, with the gravity of the moment in making the decision. And I think to some degree, it goes back to maybe, you know, the stoic saying of, you have to first work on yourself. What's causing you to be uncomfortable? Is it the pressure? Is it the lack of data? I don't think it's the lack of data. There is something else that's causing leaders to be cautious in the moment. And I think that has a lot to do with this idea of creating, being real, showing up as a real person. Hey, I don't have all the answers. The decision looks like this. Let's make that decision. Let's learn by doing. As Jake said, we're not curing cancer here. It's not irreversible. Let's give it a shot and check our data and make adjustments and then go again and constantly be learning and doing. I think, to some degree, leaders have to have that ability to deal with ambiguity in that way.
- [17:17]
B
Scott, good stuff. Corrine, your thoughts?
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A
Yeah, I agree completely. And for me, at least, confidence doesn't come from having all the answers, but it does come from knowing the right questions to ask and having a clear decision framework, getting the right people in the room and having back to that trust, having enough trust to move forward with a decision even when we don't know the answer to every variable or every possible scenario. So I think that you build your decision framework, if you will, which for some businesses might be fairly informal. For others, I think is getting more formal and more structured as we lean into technology more in the future. But. But I do think that that confidence, it's hard to quantify, but it's a really important part of the, of the process and being able to do that and not expect perfection every time. Right. But to expect to learn when things don't go well or could go better, what would we do differently next time we're faced with a similar challenge?
- [18:28]
B
All right, Jake, you've been applauding. We heard there from Scott and Corinne, your take on how leaders and their teams can make better decisions.
- [18:35]
D
I love it when savvy leaders are sharing great insights. I mean, they've been through the wars. They know what we're talking about here. I mean, at the end of the day, to build on both of them, you know, a leader is never making bets that we're going to be completely right. That's just not possible. Okay. You're making a bet that the direction is right. You're playing out, hey, what would need to be true for us to be able to accomplish this? You're also at the same time asking something as simple as, are we positioned to learn fast if we're wrong? So that helps to unlock. So Corinne, hit on something. You know, that level of discomfort, that reason for hesitation, is because the leader is unable to let go and let people make those decisions. So instead of trying to say, no, no, no, no, no, this is too big. I've got it. It's got to be. Mwah. Okay, I've got to make that call. All your job is to say, hey, what would be the pivots? If it's not right, who do I want to be owning certain pieces? If we need to pivot so that everybody's clear. If it goes upside down, this is what we're going to do. So it's a collection of those things as opposed to saying, no, no, we're going to go into paralysis because I'm not ready to make that call.
- [20:09]
C
Yeah. And there's a certain momentum that comes from just taking action. Right. Certain advantage that comes from. Well, we don't know all the answers. We absolutely don't know. But we do know that if we do this tomorrow, we'll learn a lot more and then we'll adjust and we'll go again. And that momentum comes from that speed that Jake and Kiran were talking about.
- [20:29]
A
Yeah. That's so valuable. That's so valuable, Scott, because it's. You know, one of the first chief supply chain officers I worked with said something that. That just surprised me because I thought he knew everything. Right. And. And he. He came to the table and said, look, we didn't know what we didn't know. Now we've got new insights. Now we know how to think about this problem from a different angle. But his, you know, just his humbleness, because I didn't really think he was a very humble person. I. But to say, hey, we didn't know what we didn't know. Here's what we're take away from this and where we need to dig deeper next time. It's just a big learning moment for all of us.
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D
And I can assure you that's a mark of an organization where they will lean into experimentation and not fear the outcome.
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B
And we all know how important experimentation running pilots is. You're going to win some. You're going to fail probably a lot more than what you win. But feel fast and learn from it
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C
and apply and move on.
- [21:31]
B
Dr. Wu, I know we've. We've interacted on social for years. Great to have you here. And again, I welcome all of Yalls. Takes on decision making on resilience is where we're going to go here in a second. Let us know what you're seeing. Whether you agree with the panel here, the illustrious panel, or if you disagree, that's fine, too. All right, so here's a great question. Corinne, Scott, and Jake, y' all worked in and worked with Some of the most successful organizations out in industry. And I'm really curious, starting with you, Corinne, you know, what separates. What do you see that separates supply chain organizations that adapt quickly and move forward, kind of we're talking about versus those that struggle in the malaise and the paralysis? All that good stuff. Corinne, tell us.
- [22:12]
A
Yeah, actually, I got this insight, Jake, from you probably 20 some odd years ago. And it was about trying new things, right? And certainly a lot of companies, a lot of culture will say, we want the perfect plan, we want clear certainty on this. But perfection is the enemy of progress. And so from an operating system or culture of resilience, it's that ability to take in new information and to make changes faster and to look at how we do this efficiently in the future and not have a culture of blame or politics that come into play and not have it have to be loaded on the back of our team every single time. Right. We don't want to propel the business forward by sucking in all our best resources and spitting out what's left of them after a big crisis. We want to build that memory muscle that teaches us to learn as we go, but also to do small course corrections where we can as a part of that. But. But, you know, perfection is the enemy of progress. And if we're waiting for the perfect pilot, the perfect answer, I got news for you, it rarely comes. But let's get back to being directionally correct and feeling confident about our ability to make course corrections as we go forward.
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B
If you're waiting for those things, you're gonna be like Forrest Gump on that bench where he spent seemingly days waiting, waiting, waiting. All right, so, Jake, your thought in terms of what separates these organizations?
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D
I'll piggyback on Corinne's statement, because fundamentally, to me, the ones that are the absolute top tier are the ones that realize changes every day. And so you are constantly encouraging, enrolling, entrusting your people to actually go find the next piece of change. Here. You, you realize improvement is not a destination. It's merely a stair rung to the next breakthrough. Because there's so many pieces that are going to change around us. The business model, what products we bring to market, what channels we sell through all those things. So the way you build that, you build the muscle memory through having them constantly look for yet again, the next improvement every single day.
- [24:51]
B
Every single day. Every single day. All right, so, Scott, same, same. The core question here. What separates those that adapt quickly, move on, and those that just struggle and struggle and struggle.
- [25:01]
C
Yeah, I agree with what's been said. And we'll add in the term culture. You know, the culture of the organization is, you can say it's head at the top and that's true. But ultimately everyone in the organization owns the culture. And if the culture is one of blame or of ego or of overly focused on individuals rather than team performance, I think that can really slow down an organization because it's like Richard, you know, they operate out of fear. We don't want Richards, but we do want cultures that recognize we need to learn a lot more. And the way we will learn is by doing these things and scientifically capturing the results and making adjustments, just like you're doing the plan of experiments and you continue to reward that forward motion. And the teams are celebrated when they both have success and when they maybe don't have perfect success, but they learned a lot. Learning is this is the lifeblood of what I think are fast moving organizations.
- [26:06]
B
Well said, Scott. Well said. Has there been a shift in supply chain being an influential role in C Suite in recent years? If yes, how so? If no, what more could be done? Jake, you're nodding your head, so I'm gonna leave with you.
- [26:19]
D
There's absolutely no question that supply chain is more influential in the C Suite. You see that both in organization design and how C suite sea level teams operate. But what you should ask yourself why? And I'll tell you that it is because we've reached this level of new never normal, right? Because we've taken and shrunk the distance between having C suite spend their time appropriately on strategic activities to where the disruption to those strategic plans that's become so immense that we have had to closely couple the understanding of operational and can we land the plane? And if we can't land the plane, what are our alternatives and how can we pivot? And those we're bringing, I'll call it nimble action and change management more into the C suite than ever before.
- [27:21]
C
And the chief supply chain officer needs to also not just be the bank, but yes, you need to sit at the same seat as the P and L owners and the chief financial officer. And you need to be accountable for revenue and growth as much as you are margin and cost savings.
- [27:36]
A
Okay.
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B
And Corinne, good stuff. What would you add?
- [27:38]
A
I was going to go where Scott, where Scott just said, I think that supply chain done well, managed well, it becomes a differentiator for the business. So how you attack the market, how you harness opportunities, mitigate risk, it's a part of everything in the business. And so I think that seat at the table is getting broader, wider, and more of the C suite is leaning into those discussions, especially since we can. Technology is advanced far enough now where we can speak in both volumetric terms and financial terms. And the C suite, their primary language is, is financial in how we're running the business. Then you back that up with the quantities or volume necessary to achieve those financial goals, the revenue, the margin, et cetera. So I think that supply chain is very influential and deserves a seat at the table and is a part of innovation, growth, all the opportunities that get discussed in those boardrooms, all the things.
- [28:46]
B
Jake, you're gonna have one more comment.
- [28:48]
D
I was gonna say, in most large scale corporations, it's the biggest billion dollar brand that hasn't been leveraged.
- [28:57]
B
That's a great observation, all three of y'. All.
- [28:59]
C
I might take that one too. Jake, write that one down. Number of people, you know, the biggest spend, almost always.
- [29:07]
B
All right, so folks, you all know, hopefully if you all have tuned in, if that's your first time, I think hopefully you're figuring it out today or if you've been with us for years, we keep it real around here in the no fluff zone. And one word that has been bandied about for years is resilience. Right? I mean, goodness gracious, but I want to get past the lip service leadership here today because we got three folks that bit lived it and, and, and know what it's like not in concept, but in practice. So we want to talk about resilience for real here in this next section. So first up, Jake, what does resilience actually look like inside a high performing team?
- [29:48]
D
Oh, my goodness. We're. How much time do we have left?
- [29:52]
B
About two minutes.
- [29:56]
D
You know, first, it looks like fast recovery, not immunity to setback. I mean, think about it. A resilient team does not wallow in the shortcoming. They are quick and agile at saying, hey, as Scott was outlining that first effort came up short. Okay, now why and what do we do about it? It's about clarity. During chaos. Does everyone run around like, you know, chickens with their heads on cut off or do they in the moment understand, I'm counting on Scott for this. I'm counting on Corinne for this. And they don't get into their swim lanes. They know that they have the trust that given what we need to get done, I can count on. Right. It's having, I'll call it an emotional shelf life, a half life of not wallowing in failure. Guys, we all fail. If you're not leaning in then. I'm sorry. You're playing it safe. The world of supply chain, the world of business operations is if you haven't failed. I'm sorry, you've been playing a little too safe.
- [31:17]
B
I like it. I like it. All right.
- [31:19]
C
Playing.
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B
Don't. Don't play too safe, folks. Don't play too safe. Scott, we're coming to you next. What resilience really looks like in a high performing organization.
- [31:28]
C
Yeah, that's right. I'm was. Jake's comments reminded me, I don't know, is on a Ted Lasso comment, you know, and the goalkeeper makes an error and the goal scored and said I've forgotten about it. What do you mean? I have the memory of a goldfish. I'm not lingering on that. I'm thinking about what's next. And I just remember that quote that have the memory of a goldfish, which is basically no memory other than learning what you're doing. Yeah, no, it is. Right. And you know you have to invest in that. Right. You can build scenario plans and business continuity plans and have all that. Even with, you know, top tier network modeling now, you can do this fairly quickly, but if you don't invest behind the capability to execute that resilience, okay, well, these things happen and it hit our trigger points. And now we need to execute this plan and this play that we should have pre built. And the organization needs to be rewarded for their ability to do that. Which also leads back to a point that Corinne made a few moments ago. If you don't have a structured process, a structured decision making process at scale and speed to make those decisions daily and weekly, not just monthly and quarterly, then you'll fall behind. And I think that's what resilience looks like. Yes, we constantly absorb the disruption and we constantly learn from it and we constantly, through our structure process, use it to get better. Because what do we want to do? We want to beat the competition because we can do this better than they can.
- [32:58]
B
All right, Corinne, resilience. What does it look like in reality?
- [33:01]
A
Well, you can't just sprinkle a little resilience on the top. You've got to make it part of the culture, part of getting better visibility, more scenario analysis, stronger talent retention and development, good clear decision rights. Right. All of these things have to be built in. And I think we really leaned into this message of resilience strongly as an industry during COVID And the biggest change at that time wasn't just responding to what was happening in the global environment. It was a Recognition that we weren't going to optimize for the least cost in every scenario that service, multi sourcing. These things that give us resilience, these levers that we can pull may not result in the lowest cost provider in the market or partner in the marketplace, but they do enable us resilience to deliver on our promise to our customers for a good quality product in the long run.
- [34:11]
B
Okay, so one thing that. Go ahead, Jake.
- [34:16]
D
I've got to give a calorie weight.
- [34:18]
B
Okay.
- [34:19]
D
I love the description of what and the comparison of COVID but I'm going to tell you that I want to vomit when I see most organizations back to Scott's point. Did they pick up some resilience in the processes they use to get themselves through Covid? Yes. Did they institutionalize, invest back into where it was repeatable muscle memory for what they're going through now? The answer is vomit.
- [34:52]
C
No, not.
- [34:53]
A
Yeah, not at all.
- [34:54]
C
Most of them didn't, but most did not.
- [34:57]
B
Chris, let's everybody keep their lunch in their stomach for the rest of the 30 minutes, please. Please. All three of y' all touched on culture. I think all three of y' all did on your responses around what resilience looks like. So I want to. I want to spike the football on this specific topic. Scott, what role does culture play in organizational resilience?
- [35:21]
C
Well, I think it plays one of the paramount roles. I mean, it ultimately drives the. It's going to drive the talent to come and to stay. If they feel like they are being valued for their ability to act quickly and to respond to change, it's going to drive the reward structure. My reward structure is only my individual rewards. Did I achieve this metric? And if so, I get a 4% raise instead of a 2% raise. If the reward structure values learning, then that builds a culture of, hey, we want to win, we want to beat competition, and we want to care about how we do it. And in that environment, then experimentation thrives. If the environment is one of backstabbing and blame and egos, then the organization will be encouraging you to put your head in the sand and just get along, to go along. And in that way, you will not be resilient. So I think it's. Thanks for the softball. Yes, I think it's paramount. Maybe some people will disagree. I don't know.
- [36:25]
B
Well, really quick, really quick. I've been in that culture you describe, and, and so I can speak firsthand and how deflated not only I was at various points almost every day, but my colleagues. And when there's all the finger point and the blame game. And, and it really hurts with, especially in you think of a manufacturer organization, you've got a bunch of teams in different functional roles that got to come together, solve problems, make customers happy, figure stuff out. And Scott, I've lived through it. I never want to go back. And I bet folks out there that have lived through it, they know how well how critically important culture is to anything, including resilience. Corinne, your thoughts about culture and resilience? Are they married?
- [37:10]
A
Well, I think that if you've made a decision that resilience is, is something that's important to your business. It needs to be part of the culture and it needs to be wrapped in or woven into everything you do. And you can't, you can't be looking for blame placement on things when they don't go well. We need to reward failure that we learn from or the fail forward type scenario. If we learn from it, it's not a total loss, it's not a total failure. And so I think that a culture where people feel comfortable coming and saying, hey, this didn't go well, and proactively communicating that is really important. And that may look like inside your organization, but even more importantly, reaching out to a customer proactively and telling a customer, hey, we've got a problem. This is how we've addressed it. These are the steps I'm taking to make sure that it doesn't happen again in the future. But I wanted to give you the most time possible. Right. So that's important as well, from a market perspective as well as an internal culture perspective. And those are the kind of partners I want to work with.
- [38:21]
B
I'm with you. That's a great, great call out there. The great call out. Because you're working with the culture of all your suppliers, essentially. Jake, your thoughts? Culture, resilience.
- [38:31]
D
Corinne. Nailed it. I mean, fundamentally, at the end of the day, when you peel that back, what are we really talking about? We're talking about, are we allowing our people to demonstrate what I call adaptive intelligence. Adaptive intelligence. What does that mean? That means that actually they're encouraged to be inquisitive, to ask questions, to sense, interpret, come to you with what they think doesn't smell. Right, right. And then aggressively go after change. If the culture's not resilient in supporting it, like Scott outlined to you earlier, then you, you force people into foxholes. And, and they are not. Look, it may be happening on my shift, but it's not my responsibility.
- [39:23]
C
Yep.
- [39:24]
B
All right, so, Jake, Scott, And Corinne, I've got one more curveball for y' all before we start talking about teams. The importance of teams that can navigate through all what the never normal brings to the table. Has geopolitical risks become an important consideration in the analytics? If so, how would one approach this while planning for a resilient supply chain? It's a great question. Who would like to take a first hack at that before we get into the teams?
- [39:51]
A
I'll take.
- [39:53]
D
All right.
- [39:53]
B
Corinne.
- [39:54]
A
Yes, yes, I get that a yes. Yes, absolutely. I mean, geopolitical has always been a big factor in how we plan our supply chains. The fact that there are so many things going on right now that have large impacts, not just regional impacts on global supply chains I think is very important and makes it even more critical for us to build in this resilience muscle. Right. How do we replan? How do we reschedule? How do we work with suppliers that are not impacted or serve customers who are impacted by geopolitical issues?
- [40:32]
C
Yes. And capability exists to. Dr. Bruce, question A number of providers. I'm not here to list them, but big ones that names you would know will provide you fairly detailed granular data on not just the risk. Is there a policy, trade policy risk, or a government turnover or violence, but get deeper into the componentry and how much volumetrics is moving out. Everyone's heard about fertile, you know. Okay, the straight is closed. Yeah. Oil prices. What about fertilizer? What about chemical substrates? That's, you know. Okay. You need to know what those things are and actively monitor them. So I would say many companies are on board with doing that, and if you're not, then you're falling behind.
- [41:20]
B
And Jake, anything else to add? Corinne and Scott nailed it. Pretty good, huh?
- [41:24]
D
They nailed it.
- [41:25]
B
Okay, excellent. All right, so get. Let's get into the teams, you know, with resilience there in mind and many, many other things. The one priority that many organizations are steadily working on, and let's face it, many aren't, is building teams that can truly thrive through change. So from the OR four, rather the never normal era that we're all watching unpack hour by hour, what is a newer skill or talent that more supply chain organizations are placing a premium on when hiring? Jake, your thoughts?
- [41:57]
D
Well, I think what we talked about a few minutes ago comes back to rus as well, because this idea of adaptive intelligence. Right. So I refer to it as cognitive flexibility. It's called. I am looking for people in my teams that are demonstrating that fear does not exist when change is introduced. They don't run away from it. They love getting into it and problem solving. Right. Because I think that the piece that most companies get stuck in there is not playing through what the Never Normal is going to bring. Right. So I'm looking for folks that are flexible that actually don't wait for me to bring up, as Scott outlined just a second ago, the four different permutations of what could go wrong. Right. The chemical availability. Right. No, they've already taken it upon themselves to dissect that and bring that together is. I hate to say it, but there's a set of folks that love to get up and every morning and they love a constant routine that they cannot deal with change. They just can't. It's not in their DNA. And there's a set of folks that love getting into some problem to solve.
- [43:29]
A
Right.
- [43:30]
B
And there's folks that love just to stir the pot, to get up each morning to stir the pot. Organizations. I got some neighbors like that. Just kidding, folks. Just kidding. All right, Jake, good stuff there. Keeping it real. Scott, your thoughts on, you know, the, the premiums replaced on certain traits or skill sets that are rather new in the last couple years?
- [43:50]
C
Yeah, I, I'm. We, we actually study this at the university. I'm involved in a couple research projects and, and we're that talk about this talent question. And, you know, there are really five that are starting to rise to the top as we talk to VPs and chief supply chain officer. One, compelling communication, obviously. Well, I should start with the obvious one, comfort with data. So they're comfortable with data, getting all kinds of data that. And using an AI that's given, number one. Number two, they have the ability to tell the story. Call that compelling communication. Number three, they're bringing some level of financial acumen. To Corinne's point earlier, they're able to speak the language of both supply chain and finance, and they are really orchestrators. I was thinking about listening to Jake's description a moment ago and Nick Green and thinking, you know, he was describing not a job title like raw material inventory analyst. No, no, he's describing job titles that should be called orchestration analyst or orchestrator. Hey, I'm working on problems in this part of the supply chain and I orchestrate solutions. And I think that that's the kind of. That's the kind of skills that need to be taught. And if your team doesn't have them, you're accountable for bringing your team up to snuff. If they don't, let's get it to them.
- [45:10]
B
That's Right. And hey, I don't know, I hope I'm not breaking the rules, but the University of Tennessee and the Global Supply Chain Institute, they publish all sorts of great research and of course, tons of wonderful training opportunities. And Scott, I really admire the work you and your colleagues are doing there, so I appreciate your comments. Hopefully, I didn't break any rules there. All right, Corinne, your thoughts on. On some of the. The emphasis, the emphasis we're putting on certain skill sets when it comes to talent.
- [45:39]
A
Yeah, I love the list that, that Scott just shared. I wrote this down. I read this earlier this week. The demand for supply chain workers with AI skills has surged 387% since 2023. So here we are in a dynamic employment environment. Supply chain has heightened awareness, but the ability to connect technical fluency with the context of what's happening in the supply chain and what the outcome goals are and the business context, that is a really rich skill set. And the ability to communicate that well, as Scott said, to tell the story. So. So it's not just the data. It's the context of the business. It's understanding the business goals and objectives, how they want to be perceived in the marketplace, and bringing that forward in a story. So I'm not telling you you have to be an AI expert, but you do need to be comfortable, fluent in asking the questions and driving the answers and helping your team be more resilient and responsive to ever changing business conditions.
- [46:51]
C
All right, my finger was up before Jake's.
- [46:54]
A
You need a button.
- [46:56]
C
Seriously, she's 100, right? And I lost my. Oh, this idea that if your answer is, oh, yes, important person who I'm now giving this solution to. Well, this is what the model said. We ran it through the algorithm and we should do B. If that's your answer, that's exactly not what describing here. You need to tell the story in a way that the people can understand it and you need to explain why that. Why certain influences were more important in
- [47:24]
D
the outcome and a keeping it real moment. There aren't enough of those folks to go around that. So guess what, Back to our resilient topic a few moments ago. The best of the best from a leadership standpoint are actually teaching it in house. They're actually building their own little armies of folks with the skills that Corinne is talking about because they can't find enough of them outside.
- [47:55]
B
Well, and to your point, you know, we've known for quite some time, years, that we don't have enough folks in global supply chain manufacturing, you name it, in Fact, I saw a nugget data factoid earlier this week. Despite that being the case just year over year, some organizations point to an over 35% increase in demand and supply chain talent last year to this year. So the problem's getting bigger and bigger. So if you're not developing your current valuable, beautiful human talent, what are you doing? All right, let's flip the table, let's flip the script here a bit because it's a two way street, right? It's not only what we ask and expect and hire in our talent, it's what they expect in the organization and their leaders. So Scott, what is today's talent? And you're probably uniquely situated for this in some ways, what is today's talent expect from the organizations that hire them, that they work in and from their leaders?
- [48:52]
C
Well, I would think the first thing that's rising to the top as we talk to, you know, students who three to five years in or MBA students, they want, they want to be personally valued inside the organization. What does that mean? That means they don't want some standard rote 20 year old career development plan. They want their learning and development. If it's a lattice, if it's sideways, if it's up to be bespoke to them. Number two, they want to have time with their leaders and they want to be able to be involved in the decision making. Now that doesn't mean obviously that doesn't work just in the matter of most, most organizations are pyramid but you do have to make time, leaders have to make time to have one on one relationships with this talent. And number three, they want to see their work being invested in either invested in learning more doesn't mean every project goes forward. Of course we know that can't happen. But every project is taken seriously and therefore they'll feel valued inside that their work was adding something to the greater good.
- [50:02]
B
I love it, Scott. All right, so Corinne, we're talking talent expectations of their organizations. Your thoughts?
- [50:09]
A
Yeah, I think every employee is always asking two things, at least two things. The first is am I doing something that matters? And the second is does anybody care? And so helping especially people who are early in their career understand how their role and their contribution connects into the bigger picture I think is really important. So am I doing something that matters and does anybody care what does good look like? Right. And being able to kind of coach them through those process and, and, and connect to the ever bigger goals that we set for the company or the department or the project.
- [50:45]
B
Yep, excellent answer. Jake, your thoughts?
- [50:50]
D
Follow these guys. They are on top of their game today.
- [50:56]
B
So do you just want to say what's that scene from Catch me if you can where the doctors are all. And, and he. One's trying to get, you know, he's not a doctor. He's trying to act like a doctor and he's just agreeing with the other. What the other doctors are saying. I forgot what the phrase he's using. But do you, do you just agree and we want to move on.
- [51:17]
D
Jake, I, I agree. Let's move on.
- [51:19]
B
All right, let's do it. So two, I got two final big questions I'm going to ask both of y'.
- [51:24]
D
All.
- [51:25]
B
And y' all know I'm a big leadership nerd on top of other things. Birds and supply chains and other things. So what's one leadership trait? And Corinne, I'm starting with you, but what's one leadership trait that has become dramatically more important in the last few years?
- [51:40]
A
Well, I, I would say storytelling, since I've, I've hit on that a couple of times. This ability to communicate and, and tell the story not just from the data, but connect it into the corporate goals and why, the why, why are we doing this becomes very important. And you need to be able to articulate that verbally to lead and inspire your team.
- [52:04]
B
I think that's an excellent answer. And it also dawned on me as you were sharing. I concur. That's what the doctor was trying to get by by saying with no substance behind it. But Corinne, excellent. All right. So Scott, when it comes to leadership and what's really risen to the top in terms of priorities in the last few years, what would that be, Scott?
- [52:28]
C
There's so many, but I'm going to pick self awareness. I mean, leaders need to connect with their teams and with their peers and their bosses in an authentic way. And that means they need to set the ego aside at times, be aware of their impact, of their communication, of their own improvement plan and, and practice being authentic in the moment. So having self awareness, I think is a skill that is going to be vitally important.
- [52:57]
B
I concur. But more importantly, seriously, you know, there is, I don't know about yalls take, but there is a dearth of self awareness in, in the business world. And I think what I've really enjoyed seeing is the emphasis on like emotional intelligence. Right. And how folks not only study all others, but they said to themselves and how we can be self aware because it's so tied to your point, Scott, to authenticity and, and being genuine and Being kind of folks, the kind of leaders that folks want to work with, work for and work around. Jake, your thoughts on the leadership traits that are really important?
- [53:32]
D
Now, I've got a package. What you've heard from these two colleagues and spin it in a way of, of again, the reality of the new never normal. I, I, I think there are too many leaders that are in love with finding the solution to the problem instead of, as I call it, fall in love with the problem. And here's why. Because when you fall in love with the problem, you automatically by default are realizing there's more than single problem. Right. And it's going to be a cascading thing. And in this situation, this era we're going through where we're solving for multi variable things almost constantly. Right. When you fall in love with the problem, you're not in love with a specific solution. And I don't think there is a specific solution today. I think the solution is going to continue to vary day to day, week to week, month to month based on what we're going through. And so it's a mindset, Scott, of having people say no. What I'm really focusing on is getting the organization centered on the problem at hand. Right. Getting them galvanized around that it's clarity, it's telling them truthfully about where we are and what we aren't able to do as opposed to the shiny bauble or the object of a solution. Right. Because that was right maybe for today and then tomorrow morning, not so much. Right.
- [55:13]
B
Jake. Excellent. Actually, Jake, Scott and Corinne, excellent comments. And that question could be a six hour webinar. So I really appreciate the couple of comment components of that you shared. All right, so here we go. Big question. Corinne, Scott and Jake, you know, collectively, and don't ask me about my math, you know, we got certain rules we, we don't break around here, but y' all collectively led through almost a century of change, disruption, growth, transformation, innovation, you name it. And I love how all that comes out in the shows we do together.
- [55:47]
C
Right.
- [55:48]
B
So if you could leave our audience with one big piece of advice for succeeding in a never normal world, what would that be? And I'm going to start with Jake, since he has been struck with Scott and Corinne. Jake, you're going to go first here. What would you your advice be?
- [56:04]
D
You know, I think it's simple. The people, the organizations that are going to win over the next decade aren't going to be the ones with the best plans. Plans expire. I, I firmly believe that I think it's going to be the ones that are inherently staying so close with their organizations to the problems, being able to take them apart, having the skill sets to be able to do the quick diagnosis, the pivoting, and then bringing to bear change. Those are going to be the winners.
- [56:41]
B
Yep. I think that's an excellent and astute observation. I concur. Scott, your thoughts? One piece of advice here.
- [56:49]
C
Well, put a process in place and then trust the process. Every day is not going to be a mountaintop moment. We're going to work through the peaks and the valleys, but if we value learning, we value data, we value speed, then we're going to value that process and we're going to know that every day we're going to get better. And every day will be a day of improving the whole organization. I think that's idea of let's just keep going and trust the process. Put a good process in place and then trust.
- [57:21]
B
Love it. Lean in that momentum. All right, Corinne, you're a cleanup hitter. Your advice today.
- [57:26]
A
I concur.
- [57:30]
B
It's easy to do, isn't it? It's easy to do when you're in
- [57:34]
A
the number three slot. I, I think, you know, I'm going to go back to what we talked about at the beginning and that the goal of leadership is to create more leaders. So make sure you're doing that with, with the teams that you're leading. Make sure that you're giving them enough autonomy. They've got a clear understanding of what the outcome is that we're. We're striving for. Give them some creative space, but let them lean into those things which unlocks their human talents in the table because they need to leverage the technology. But the whole goal with technology is really to elevate what our leadership teams are doing and what our planners are doing, what our supply chain professionals are doing. We want to reach better decisions faster at a quicker cadence. And so think about creating the leaders, future leaders, not managing the process all the time. You, you want to unlock that talent, man.
- [58:34]
B
All three terrific pieces of actual been there, done that advice. I really appreciate that. I wish we had another hour. Jake and Scott and Kin, I'm sure y' all have got meetings to go to. So folks, if you enjoyed what we heard there from Jake and Scott and Corinne, I want to share one more resource before we get out of here. And because you're going to find our co host Perspective regularly. And with that said, it's our almost weekly newsletter is chock full with Perspective is Chock full with live events where we want you to come and engage, not not just absorb what the conversation best practices deliver. But we want to hear from you, get your take on all the topics. We welcome your feedback. All right, big thanks to our panel here today. Corinne Bursa, CEO with Norio. Corinne, wonderful to reconnect and collaborate again. Thank you so much.
- [59:23]
A
Hey, thanks for the opportunity to be here with you, Scott, and with my esteemed fellow panelists here. So find Jake and Scott. Enjoyed it.
- [59:32]
B
And you can find Corinne right here on LinkedIn. Jake Barr, CEO and principal with Blue World Supply Chain Consulting. Thanks for being here, Jake.
- [59:41]
D
It's always a pleasure, especially with this quality talent. It made me speechless
- [59:49]
B
and that doesn't happen. That doesn't happen very often, folks. So check out. We got Jake right there on LinkedIn as well. And Scott DeGroote, managing director of the Global Supply Chain Institute at the University of Tennessee. Thanks for being here, Scott.
- [60:03]
C
No, no, it was my pleasure. And I learned something as I always do with you, Scott, Jake, and Corinne. So thank you very much for that.
- [60:10]
B
I did too. I got to get ready. We're going to. We can't do this on Fridays anymore. My brain's almost dead on Fridays. I got to. This got to be a Monday conversation going to the beach. So, folks, before we go, I want to challenge you. You know, this conversation was very actionable with three of my favorite, three of the smartest people that I rub elbows with regularly. Hopefully you enjoyed it. Take one thing you heard here from Corinne or Scott or Jake, one thing. Share it with your team. Do something with it. Deeds, not words. That's how we're going to continue transforming global supply chain and leave no one behind. And with that said, hey, happy Juneteenth, everybody. Most importantly, do good, give forward. Be the change that's needed. And we'll see you next time right back here on Supply Chain Now. Thanks, everybody. Join the Supply Chain now community. For more supply chain perspectives, news and innovation, check out supply chain now.com subscribe to Supply Chain now on YouTube and follow and listen to Supply Chain Now. Wherever you get your podcasts.