1 Anti-Manosphere vs 20 Manosphere (ft. Mark Manson) | Surrounded

Summary

Podcast Summary: Surrounded — Episode 1

Title: Anti-Manosphere vs 20 Manosphere (ft. Mark Manson)
Date: July 27, 2026
Host: John Regolato (Jubilee Media)
Featured Guest: Mark Manson (bestselling author, former men’s dating coach)
Format: One guest ("anti-manosphere") faces 20+ advocates from the "manosphere" community on core issues.

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Episode Overview

This inaugural episode of Surrounded dives headfirst into the raging debates of the so-called “manosphere.” Best-selling author Mark Manson sits in the center, facing nearly two dozen men (and a few women) who either support or are adjacent to the manosphere’s ethos. The conversation, by design, is raw, pluralistic, and confrontational, tackling everything from the commercialization of the manosphere, the impact of modern feminism, the meaning of masculinity, sexual double standards, and the cultural effects of pornography. Each topic is handled via structured “claims,” with rotating guests challenging Manson’s viewpoints.

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Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. Defining the Manosphere and its Commercialization

• Mark Manson’s Claim: The manosphere is a “billion dollar business that profits off keeping men angry and insecure.”

  • Manson argues the modern manosphere is less about self-help and more about monetizing male insecurity, centering its messaging on anti-feminism and grievances against women.

  • Manosphere supporters counter that the term is too sweeping and that many leaders are genuinely helping men improve their lives, filling in gaps left by absent fathers and societal neglect.

  • Quote:

    • Mark Manson: “You can get that advice in 100 other different places without the toxic packaging.” [07:12]

  • Commercial Examples Discussed: Andrew Tate’s Hustler University, sports betting, gambling, promoting OnlyFans, and profit-driven dating courses.

  • Notable tensions:

    • Viral “extreme” content grows fastest; supporters claim this is the fault of media algorithms, while Manson insists you can go big without going toxic (e.g., Chris Williamson).
    • The role of personal responsibility vs. influencer accountability for the content and its impact on vulnerable young men.

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2. Is Feminism Ruining Society or Scapegoated?

• Manosphere View: Feminism is framed as an ideology that has “ruined culture and society,” often conflating radical feminist slogans with general social policy.

  • Supporters point to elementary school messaging (“the future is female”) as evidence boys are indoctrinated against their own gender.

  • Manson agrees extremism exists on both sides, but presents global evidence that men are struggling even in societies without strong feminist movements, showing the crisis is deeper than “feminism vs. men."

  • Quote:

    • Mark Manson: “When you look globally…young men are struggling just as much there, if not more.” [12:07]

  • Debate on causation: Is men’s malaise due to anti-male messaging, or changing economic/technological structures, or both?

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3. Body Count Debate: Sexual Double Standards and Relationship Success

• Manson’s Claim: A woman's body count (sexual history) doesn't matter.
  • Manosphere Responses: Many argue body count is a proxy for risk-taking behaviour and (perceived) loyalty, invoking analogies to used cars and job resumes.
  • Manson’s counter:
    • The analogy is faulty; trust and character show through behaviour and communication, not a number.
    • Data suggests women with 3-9 sexual partners before marriage have lower divorce rates than women with just one or two. [29:27]
  • Psychological angle: Obsession over body count is more about men’s insecurities than female "value."
  • Strong moment:
    • Mark Manson: “Forget body count. Just talk to her.” [39:59]
    • Glenn: “There’s no dickometer in front of a top of a woman's vagina that tells you how many thrusts per minute she's had.” [33:41]

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4. Pornography vs. Feminism: What Harms Men More?

• Manson’s Claim: Porn has done more damage to men than feminism has.

  • Manosphere Pushback: Feminism leads to family breakdown and abortion while promoting promiscuity—seen as more damaging; porn is a personal choice.

  • Manson’s Data:

    • Average boy's first exposure to porn is age 11.
    • 90% of men report regular use by 18.
    • Associated with higher rates of depression, ED, suicidality, and relationship dysfunction in men.

  • Feminism as scapegoat: Manson insists problems predate “third/fourth wave” feminism and are observed globally.

  • Quote:

    • Mark Manson: “If 11-year-olds were getting access to cigarettes and alcohol every day, would you make the same argument...?” [46:50]

  • Agreement reached: Both sides see porn as damaging but differ over relative harm and locus of responsibility (personal vs. societal).

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5. The “Most Attractive Men” Are Those Who Like and Respect Women

• Manson’s Claim: The most attractive men are those who like and respect women.
  • Pushback: Manosphere argues “nice guys” are often not attractive (seen as weak or transactional); "bad boys" have better luck, at least in the short term.
  • Manson: Distinguishes between performative “niceness” (“I bought you flowers, now will you like me?”) and genuine, non-transactional respect, which, per evolutionary psychology research (David Buss), predicts long-term romantic success across cultures. [60:26]
  • Quote:
    • Mark Manson: “Nice guys are not actually nice. They’re usually being nice in a transactional way. Women smell that a mile away...it’s a complete turnoff” [58:45]
    • “Those are the most attractive men. This is who I am. I like you. Do you want to go out?” [59:29]

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6. Looks vs. Personality: What Do Women Really Want?

• Follow-up Hot Seat:
  • Will’s Claim: Women today care more about looks than personality, especially due to dating apps and social media (where women get flooded with attention).
  • Manson: Concedes looks are more important than ever for first impressions but argues that in real-life relationships—especially after the first few dates—values, personality, and mutual respect become primary.
  • Memorable exchange:
    • Mark Manson: “I used to take guys out to bars and like, I would wingman them.” [82:12]
    • Will: “You’re kind of look smacks right now for your age group” [81:14]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mark Manson on extreme messaging:
  “I worry that some good messages are being attached to so many poison pills that...young men don’t know how to differentiate between the good advice and the toxic advice.” [07:42]

• On the importance of packaging self-help:
  “My point would be that you can get that advice in 100 other different places without the toxic packaging.” [07:12]

• On the reciprocal extremism:
  “You’ve just done the same thing with feminism that you accused me of doing with the manosphere…” [06:28]

• On sexual history and judgment:
  “People change, people grow...I was a mess when I was young, I racked up a huge body count. Now I’m in a very happy marriage.” [35:11]

• On masculinity in flux:
  “The manosphere is the wrong answer to a very legitimate problem.” [13:26]

• On porn’s societal impact:
  “Looking at porn every day for years...it’s like your brain and your dick.” [51:09]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:30-02:00] — Episode premise; Mark Manson's introduction and initial claim
• [03:00-09:00] — Defining the manosphere; monetization; extreme messaging
• [12:00-15:00] — Are men worse off? Feminism as scapegoat and global perspective
• [24:02-40:50] — Body count debate: morality, risk, and relationship quality
• [40:56-56:53] — Porn vs. feminism: which damages men more? Harm, regulation, and ideology
• [57:36-64:03] — The “most attractive men” are those who like — and respect — women
• [74:10-83:27] — Hot seat: Do women care most about looks or personality? (Mark vs Will)
• [83:38-85:19] — Closing reactions from participants and Mark Manson’s reflection

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Overall Tone & Closing Takeaways

The episode maintains a candid, often tense but ultimately respectful debate with moments of humor and surprising agreement. Mark Manson persistently pushes for a “third way”—acknowledging the real struggles of men but insisting that reactionary, toxic, or anti-feminist answers are not the solution.

Key takeaway:

• The manosphere fills a real gap for directionless young men, but its most viral and commercial elements risk spreading harmful, reductive messages.
• Sexual double standards persist but say more about male insecurity than women’s worth.
• Pornography is likely a more acute danger to men’s well-being than feminism, though both sides require nuanced discussion.
• Lasting attraction is built much more on mutual respect, values, and character than looks or “game.”
• The episode ends with unexpectedly broad areas of agreement and a vivid demonstration of empathy overcoming echo chambers.

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For listeners:
If you’re looking for a rigorous, lively, and empathetic exchange that challenges both traditional and reactionary ideas of masculinity, this episode is a bold opening to what Surrounded promises to deliver: conversations that actually matter.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Mark Manson: “You can get that advice in 100 other different places without the toxic packaging.” [07:12]
• Glenn: “There’s no dickometer in front of a top of a woman's vagina that tells you how many thrusts per minute she's had.” [33:41]
• Mark Manson: “Looking at porn every day for years...it’s like your brain and your dick.” [51:09]
• Mark Manson: “Those are the most attractive men. This is who I am. I like you. Do you want to go out?” [59:29]
• Mark Manson: “The manosphere is the wrong answer to a very legitimate problem.” [13:26]

Transcript

[Glenn]

This episode is supported by FX's the Shards, a seductive drama from executive producer Ryan Murphy. Set in 1980s Los Angeles, the series follows a group of glamorous, deeply entangled high school seniors drawn into a life of wealth, beauty, parties and excess. At its center is Brett, whose reality begins to unravel when the arrival of a new student coincides with a series of mysterious murders. FX's the Shards premieres August 5th on FX and Hulu.

[Mark Manson]

What has become popularized as the manosphere defined their message around anti feminism. Women are ruining culture and society.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Well, feminism is ruining culture and society.

[Will]

You're kind of look smacks right now for your age group like thank you.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

There's many men in the manosphere that are spreading a 100% positive message. I think we should have 100 more.

[John Regolato]

Andrew Tate's has feminism Held Men back? Or has the manosphere distorted what masculinity means for an entire generation? I'm John Regolato and from Jubilee Media this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. Today we are diving into the manosphere feminism and what being a high value man actually means. Our guest today is a best selling author who's made a career out of challenging the way men think about themselves. Mark Manson, welcome to the show.

[Mark Manson]

Thank you.

[John Regolato]

Are you ready to debate the circle?

[Mark Manson]

I think so.

[John Regolato]

All right, manosphere folks, are you ready to get into this? All right, let's get started.

[Mark Manson]

Hi, I'm Mark Manson. I'm the number one New York Times best selling author and a former men's dating and relationship coach. And today I am surrounded by the manosphere. My first surrounded claim is that the manosphere is a billion dollar business that profits off keeping men angry and insecure.

[John Regolato]

If you would like to debate this claim, please get to the chair in three, two, one.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Hey, it's good to meet you.

[John Regolato]

What's up man?

[Shawn Voorh]

I'm Jake.

[Mark Manson]

Nice to meet you.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

So I think it's important to ask first, what do you mean by the manosphere?

[Mark Manson]

I would say it is the subculture of men's dating and life advice that is particularly identifiable by its sexist and traditional beliefs.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

I mean, feels a little bit no true Scotsman Y. If you define the category as being sexist, then from the category moving out from there we're gonna have a problem cause I'm not a sexist. And so if you wanna say that like if you're in the manosphere, that means you're sexist or no true member of the manosphere isn't sexist. Like, that's not a productive.

[Mark Manson]

How do you define it?

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

I think the manosphere are people who focus heavily on men's issues and are trying to instruct men on how to lead better lives, who are trying to fulfill a role that maybe a father should have or maybe can't because of a variety of societal environments. And they might do that well, they might do that poorly. And I think the discussion is about how well the sort of figures that are gaining popularity are doing that.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Right.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

And maybe some of them might be sexist, and some of them might be telling true things. And there's kind of a. A variety of mixed bags on this. But before I move on, does that seem like a reasonable starting point for what the manosphere is?

[Mark Manson]

That would be a broader definition than I would give to it.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Well, you defined it as sexist, and so obviously that was much broader. I'm not even in your definition. So that's not.

[Mark Manson]

And I am in your definition. So I would say what has become popularized as the manosphere, and maybe my reading is off on this, but, you know, it's stuff like the Tate Brothers, Myron Gaines, Harrison Sullivan, all the guys featured in the recent documentary that came out, like, that kind of brand and flavor of Min's advice. And I'll say this, too. So back when I was in this industry and I was giving Min advice professionally, there was a pretty clear delineation between the guys who were just genuinely like, hey, let me help you try to get a date. You know, like, let me help you try to make. Yeah, like, help you get a raise at work.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Right?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, and go to the gym, get stronger. There was a more confident. There was a subculture of men who really very much define. Define their message around anti feminism. Women are ruining culture and society.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Well, feminism is ruining culture and society. That doesn't mean all women are, but it does mean feminism is. And I think it's an issue to conflate the idea of, like, oh, women like women, women, women, versus the philosophy of feminism. Because you could have male feminists who I think are often more destructive for culture than female feminists are, and you could have women who are not feminists, and so on both ends. I think that's a conflation not to make.

[Mark Manson]

Okay, so my claim specifically is about the men in this space who. Their primary message towards men is that of anger, that of selfishness, empowerment through intimidation and domination of others.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

I think there's a lot of different things there. I think there are a lot of things that you should be angry about, but that doesn't mean that you should be a victim. And I think that just because a certain society has decided that the future is female, has decided to instruct men from a very young age, has removed fathers from the home, has used various incentive programs to encourage single motherhood rates, has made it such that boys are told from age 7 that the fundamental way to view history is a patriarchy. And because other men used to be bad, which I think is even debatable, a claim on its own that you, therefore are bad as well. And I think that there's a lot of things that you should be angry about. And if you have a young boy who's going through that, if you have gone through that, these are things you should be angry about. That doesn't mean you should be selfish. Same thing. Idea of, like, you shouldn't intimidate and you shouldn't lead with force, but doesn't mean you shouldn't be a dominating figure. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't lead with a positive masculine leadership of what that is. It is a dominant. And if you have a young boy who's going through that, if you have gone through that, these are things you should be angry about. That doesn't mean you should be selfish. Same thing. Idea of you shouldn't intimidate and you shouldn't lead with force, but doesn't mean you shouldn't be a dominating figure. And I think the good manosphere figures, I mean, you named a couple of them, whether they're good or bad. I don't want to mention the personal lives of those people, but the message of, like, shut up, go to the gym. I'm sorry your life is hard and you should be angry about that and you should fight back, but you need to channel that into, you know, talking to that pretty girl anyway.

[Ross]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

And being strong anyway.

[Mark Manson]

I want to make two points. One is that I think you've just done the same thing with feminism that you accused me of doing with the manosphere. Right. Which is taking some of the most extreme claims and then classifying the entire school of thought based on those extreme claims. We can get into the nuts and bolts.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Well, I'm taking what's taught in elementary

[Mark Manson]

schools, which is some extreme stuff.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

And the extreme manosphere stuff isn't taught in elementary school.

[Mark Manson]

I understand.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

The future is female. You see people wearing that in their elementary schools.

[Mark Manson]

I understand.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Can we agree that's an extreme position?

[Mark Manson]

I do agree with that. So, like, I would agree with you on that. That that probably shouldn't be in an elementary school.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Yeah. Funded by the state.

[Mark Manson]

Yes. The second point, there's the advice and then there's the packaging, right?

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Yes.

[Mark Manson]

What you just said. Right. Get your life together, go to the gym, take care of yourself. Like, work on yourself. These are all great things. My point would be that you can get that advice in 100 other different places without the toxic packaging.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

But that doesn't go viral. People don't see it. The media suppresses it. The environment. If you want to get the message out, you have to go extreme. And I wish we didn't have that. And if we want to talk about how we should restructure the systems of YouTube and everything, that would be great. And I think we're trying to do that now, trying to get this out.

[Mark Manson]

How is. Do you have to go extreme? I mean, like, so I'll give an example of somebody who I do think is a healthy figure in this space, which is Chris Williamson. He is, like the eighth biggest podcast in the world right now. Like, he's not extreme. He's not saying all the same shit that, like, Andrew Tate is saying or Myron Gaines is saying. Right. It's like, I have an audience of over 10 million people. I. I'm not saying any of this shit. I don't think you have to be extreme to get it. And I worry that there's some good messages are being attached to so many poison pills that a lot of young men and a lot of young men don't know how to differentiate between the good advice and the toxic advice, that it's leading them down a bad path.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

There certainly is some toxic advice out there, but the idea that that's the primary thing that people are learning from these, I don't think that's true. If you're gone down the rabbit hole and you're watching six hours of Myron Gaines and four hours of Andrew Tate, and you're watching CL streams all the time. These people. That's not the majority of people who are involved in the manosphere. It's not what's happening. The things that you're getting from these people are saying, you know what, maybe you should put more interest into your look. It's not everything, but obviously your look matters and maybe you should go to the gym. It's not everything, but obviously the gym matters. All of these messages may be packaged with a more extreme idea to it, but the extremeness is how you go viral. And someone like Chris Williamson and someone like yourself, these are great people, but you guys aren't Being the number one talked about person on the Internet, you guys aren't changing the fundamental way that people view our culture. And I wish you could. The Internet isn't set up for that.

[Mark Manson]

We're also not doing it because I don't think it helps. So for example, Movember survey from 2025 found that young men who regularly consume manosphere content or masculinity influencers were much more likely to report feelings of worthlessness, extreme sadness and extreme anxiety.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

That's backwards causation. It's the people who are feeling extreme worthlessness are looking for someone to teach them what to.

[Mark Manson]

You don't see that same correlation show up in other self help genres though.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Well that has self help. Self help genres don't help almost always. They're almost always feel good nonsense. If you're told you're good the way you are, you can do whatever you need. You're a magic special person. That's the kind of thing that someone who is looking for that kind of experience, the person who is feeling bad needs someone to tell them, yeah, you are feeling bad and you need to grow up and you need to get strong. And so the correlation, the matrix is holding you down.

[Mark Manson]

And it's.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Well, it is. We just agreed that elementary schools are trying to oppress men at age of seven. Is that the matrix funded by the state? Of course it's the matrix.

[Mark Manson]

Is this a federal policy to tell 7 year olds that the future is a woman?

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

It's in every elementary school. We disagreed on that.

[Mark Manson]

I do not agree. It's in every elementary school.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Not every single one.

[Mark Manson]

I agree it's in some and it's probably the doing of certain far left

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

teachers and educators which begins in the far left universities which are funded by the state and and are structured from the top down to oppress the structure isn't natural.

[Mark Manson]

To bring it back to my point, which is that you just made the point that a lot of self help advice is bullshit.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Oh, almost all of it.

[Mark Manson]

Garbage. Right. Let's take the secret, right, Law of attraction stuff. Do you agree that that's kind of ridiculous? Cause I do.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Law of Attraction. I'm not sure exactly how that works.

[Mark Manson]

It's like if you just believe that you deserve something, the universe will give it to you.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Oh yeah, that's nonsense. But it is the case that you could fake it till you make it and if you act as though you have it, you might be more likely to get it perfect.

[Mark Manson]

So we agree on that. So that's a perfect example of what's actually like kind of a good piece of advice, but then it's packaged in this ridiculous cosmological like, oh, the universe's energy is going to serve you what you deserve and all this shit. Right.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

It's almost the health and wealth gospel, which is a violation of the Christian

[Mark Manson]

heresy, but that gets millions of people to start focusing more on their goals and dreams. So my argument is that the manosphere is doing the same thing. It has all of this ideology around the matrix and the system is oppressing you and you should be angry and all this.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Well, you should be.

[Mark Manson]

So get up and clean your room and go to the gym.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Yes.

[Mark Manson]

So it's good advice packaged in this like.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

But the package that you just said that you should be angry is the correct package, because I'm angry.

[John Regolato]

I'm gonna pause there. You've been voted out by the majority.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Great talking.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Yeah.

[Jamori]

Okay.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

I think we agree on more things than it may seem.

[Mark Manson]

We might.

[Will]

What's your view on men right now? Like in 2026, do you believe that the current situation for young men is approximately the same as, you know, 15, 20 years ago, or.

[Mark Manson]

No, it's much worse.

[Will]

Okay, why would you say that it's worse?

[Mark Manson]

Things have gotten really rough for young men. And I think it's. It is fundamentally structural and economic. It has to do with the technology. It has to do with the nature of the economy is changing. And the reason I believe this, and I don't buy the. It's feminism's fault, is because when you look globally, you look at countries that have not had a large feminist impact. The young men are struggling just as much there, if not more. And if you look at some of the countries that are even more progressive and more feminist in the United States, the men are doing better there than they are doing here. So I don't think it's feminism. I think it's happening at a much more fundamental level than culture.

[Will]

I hear that. And honestly, I agree with you that a lot of these manosphere characters, they use the anti feminist and anti woman thing as a kind of. Is a packaging. And it does obviously go viral.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Will]

But I think what's interesting to me is that we have this conversation of, does the cart come before the horse? Is the manosphere causing men to be angry at women and that's causing more incel behavior? Or was there. Is the society becoming more difficult for men to navigate and creating more incels that are already frustrated? And then they see this content on YouTube saying, you know, you should be doing this and that. And this is really what women think. And that resonates. So what would you say? You're saying that it's.

[Mark Manson]

I would say it's both.

[Will]

It's both.

[Mark Manson]

I personally believe that the manosphere is the wrong answer to a very legitimate problem. Right. The legitimate problem is that young men and boys are struggling. They have fewer role models.

[Will]

They're not having sex. Right, Right.

[Mark Manson]

And they have fewer role models, they have fewer people to look up. They're getting advice from fewer places. The manosphere is filling that vacuum. But I believe that it's filling it with a lot of toxic information. There's a whole subreddit called X Red Pill. And if you go through there and read all those guys stories like it is.

[Will]

It's extreme.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. It's ugly.

[Will]

So why do you think genuinely, like, what is the. You said that there's some systematic change that's happening across. You said globally. So, like, what. What do you think that is?

[Mark Manson]

My guess is that it's a combination of moving to a more globalized services economy. Right. If you actually look at the psychological differences between men and women, Right. It's like women tend to be a little bit more pro social. They tend to be a little bit better at building and connecting and managing relationships. We're in an economy where that is more valuable than ever before. Right. If you look at male psychology. Right. Men are, I think, four times more likely to have adhd. Men tend to lose interest in things. They have lots of antsy energy. We have so many devices, so many screens bombarding us with distractions all the time. It wouldn't surprise me if young men are more susceptible to that sort of distraction and that. That dopamine treadmill than young women.

[John Regolato]

So we got a pause there. You've been voted out.

[Mark Manson]

It's just getting good.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

So what do you think is extreme?

[Mark Manson]

Like, what are some of the extreme views? I would say anything that is intentionally demeaning the fundamental value of a woman. Could you give me an example? Well, the body count example, but can

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

you understand how there is a correlation

[Mark Manson]

between being willing to take a lot of dick from a lot of different people and not thinking highly of yourself? Perhaps, I don't know.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

So I don't think that you're lowering

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

the quality of a woman by saying

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

like, hey, just so you know, it's probably not the best thing for you to.

[Mark Manson]

But that's. That could be true for men as well. Men should not be taking dick from

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

a lot of strangers.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

I agree. Both genders.

[Mark Manson]

No one it's true for straight men as well. Taking lots of vagina as well. It's generally low self esteem. Correlates very strongly with sexual partners. Overall.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Totally agree.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Yes, I think it's worse, but that

[Mark Manson]

doesn't make them worse people.

[John Regolato]

Okay.

[Mark Manson]

The same way, like, somebody with low self esteem is more likely to abuse alcohol or drugs. Totally doesn't make them a bad person,

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

but it's not good.

[Mark Manson]

And also, taking dick is a little bit worse than giving it.

[Unidentified Father]

Why?

[John Regolato]

All right, we got a pause there. You've been voted out. Reminder, we want to stay focused on the prompt. The current prompt. Thank you.

[Jamori]

Okay.

[Mauro]

Sorry, what's your name?

[Mark Manson]

Mark.

[Mauro]

Mark, my name is Mauro.

[Unidentified Father]

Nice to meet you.

[Mauro]

God bless you. Are you familiar with the red pill, blue pill philosophy?

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Yes.

[Mark Manson]

My understanding of it is that the blue pill is basically what society has taught you. You know, do what the man tells you, follow the typical 9 to 5 job, and then the red pill is when you wake up and realize that nothing is as it seems, that society has been duping you, and that it's our responsibility as men to, you know, take control of our lives and go back to the way nature intended it. How'd I do?

[Mauro]

You did actually pretty great. Do you believe in that?

[Mark Manson]

No.

[Mauro]

Not at all?

[Shawn Voorh]

No.

[Mauro]

Not even a little bit.

[Mark Manson]

Look, I believe, like, society is not perfect. Society is definitely, like, fucked up.

[Mauro]

Okay?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, that's true. But I don't think there's any sort of, like, conspiracy thing going on. As a man. Yes. You have to take control of your life. You have to build value for yourself. You have to do something with yourself. Right? I believe that 100% agree with that.

[Mauro]

150%.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. It's what I disagree with is all of the packaging and the philosophy.

[Mauro]

No, right on. I actually agree with that. I think actually, like, the supposed, like, manosphere whole ideology actually has been actually hijacked, you know what I mean? With these people like Andrew Tate or Nick Fuentes, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think they're the epitome of masculinity. I don't think that really represents what a man actually is, you know,

[Mark Manson]

preach.

[Mauro]

I mean, I do believe with some of their ideologies, but not entirely, you know what I mean? Like, do I think, you know, men and women are equal? No. Do I believe that they're complementary? Yes, absolutely, for sure. But I just want to tell you also, like, you know, like, part of the manosphere philosophy is the red pill, blue pill. And I actually do 150% believe in that. And I do believe in the Matrix, you know what I mean? And you're stuck in this rat race, you know what I mean? And you don't want to be part of that. And then I've been actually, like, quote unquote, like, red pill. I really take that philosophy to heart.

[Mark Manson]

You know, the thing about the red pill, blue pill. Right. Like, you could look at that as just taking responsibility for your own life.

[Mauro]

Absolutely.

[Mark Manson]

Right. And that's an idea that's thousands of years old.

[Mauro]

Absolutely.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Mauro]

It's the analogy of the cave.

[Jamori]

Yeah.

[Mauro]

You have these men stuck at the bottom of a pit of a cave.

[John Regolato]

Yeah.

[Mauro]

Just watching pure shadows. And that's, to me, almost the same as, like, you're watching the news, you're watching tv. I think we could all agree, like, the news is 100% truthful. And then once you wake up to this illusion, you leave the cave. You leave the cave of deception, and you wake up to actually how the world truly works. And the world definitely works against us. Yeah, absolutely. This dominion is not of the Lord. This Earth, actually. The Devil controls it. And he's the one. Actually, I definitely.

[Mark Manson]

All right, now you lost me. I know, I know, I know.

[Mauro]

It's okay. It's okay. It's okay.

[Mark Manson]

We were doing really well.

[Mauro]

It's okay. It's okay. I mean, that's just my opinion.

[Mark Manson]

I know, I know, I know.

[Mauro]

And then you mentioned that. You mentioned law of attraction. Actually believe in that. I believe in law of attraction, and I believe in manifestation. And I'll just say, like, I have a manifestation example.

[Mark Manson]

Okay.

[Mauro]

I was thinking of penny loafers. I was obsessing about them, and I'm not even kidding you. I had a dream of penny loafers. And then I went to my local store and I went to the shoe section and I saw some leather shoes for 20 bucks. And my dream told me that, and that's why I'm here. And then, I don't know, I just thought that was, like, an example of a manifestation. Law of attraction in action.

[Mark Manson]

I love it, man.

[Mauro]

Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Thanks for talking with me.

[John Regolato]

All right, pause there. Did you say penny loafers?

[Mauro]

Yes.

[John Regolato]

Can we get a. There's some killer penny loafers in the

[Mark Manson]

circle if we like your style.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

So when you say billion dollar industry, can you give me some examples where they're making money from?

[Mark Manson]

Tate's Hustler University. I think at one point he was bragging that it was making 12, 15 million a month. Sports betting. Gambling sites are Sponsoring a lot of these guys. They're driving, like, millions of dollars of revenue to them OnlyFans. A lot of them manage OnlyFans. So they'll tell you how the Matrix is holding you down and how women are. These women are disgusted, and then they will turn around and promote the onlyfans girls that they manage to. So it's.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Would you say like, online dating courses as well?

[Mark Manson]

Online dating courses?

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Yeah, like, dating courses. And anything like, online to give you, like, advice to pick up girls. Is that in the manosphere as well?

[Mark Manson]

It depends. I mean, this gets back into, like. How do you define the manosphere?

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Yeah, well, you kind of define. You said onlyfans, you said sports betting. So now you're just encompassing a bunch of different things. That probably has nothing to do with.

[Mark Manson]

There's a lot of different forms of monetization.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Yeah, right.

[Mark Manson]

There's a lot of different forms. And again, there's like, the manosphere. I think at this point, we've probably established there's a spectrum. My issues is primarily with the extreme end.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Okay, right. So extreme is onlyfans, which I agree on is bad. Gambling, which I agree on is bad. So what else is the extreme? That's it's making too much money where you feel like that's harmful to society.

[Mark Manson]

I mean, Tate's course largely just taught people how to promote Tate's course and take 50% of the revenue. So, I mean, it's by definition a pyramid scheme. Mlm.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

So you, like, went into the course, like, you know the courses that are available there?

[Mark Manson]

No, this is just public information.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Okay, so then what specific courses in there is harmful? So you seem to know a lot about if it's making a billion dollars.

[Mark Manson]

I have not taken the course.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Okay, so you're kind of just assuming. You're just guessing, right?

[Mark Manson]

I mean, it's just. This is just based on things that I've read.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

So if someone's taking a course and they're learning just stock trading or trading, cryptocurrency or like, online marketing, is that bad that they're in that course?

[Mark Manson]

Depends on what this course is teaching them.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Okay, Is it more you just don't like the person that's giving the course? Well, you don't like their.

[Mark Manson]

Their ideology.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

But if they're giving something that's critical for men to learn and make money, you just don't like the vessel it's coming from.

[Mark Manson]

That is.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

So if it was coming from you, you'd probably be like, okay, well, you're biased for yourself. You like the information you get

[Mark Manson]

trading coins, like, it's, it's both, it's both the content that's being sold and the personality selling.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Well, you would say that people have self agency, right? They could decide if they want to take the course. They could decide what information is good from this person, what information is bad from this person.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Right?

[John Regolato]

Sure.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

You bring up all these, like Myron gains, Andrew Tate, they probably say, I would say 90% of it's good, 10% of it's bad.

[John Regolato]

Okay.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

You don't have to take all 100%. Everyone has self agency. So if you can't decipher what's good and bad from someone, not to be rude, but you're unfortunately, you're just low IQ because you just take simple stuff that's just good, like, oh, I'm going to apply this to my life. Oh, that's kind of extreme. I don't like that. I'm not going to apply that to my life. And then a main core of all these teachings is self accountability. So you're in control of your life completely. So if you're letting some online influencer dictate and your life goes down a negative pathway, that's your, that's your own doing. You're just, you're just trying to find something to blame on because you're not taking accountability for your life.

[Ross]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

But it's. If they're promoting self accountability while actively promoting things like sports betting, crypto gambling to people, young men who are very vulnerable, they're naive, they're inexperienced. You know, in a lot of cases, These are like 14, 15, 16 year olds. Right? Like, you don't have to be low IQ to be a 15 year old who doesn't know a thing about stock trading. Right. So it is. I understand that people have to take accountability for their own decisions, but I don't think that necessarily absolves some of the purveyors of this attention of these courses and this monetization of the responsibility of not taking advantage of their audiences.

[John Regolato]

All right, pause there. We're out of time.

[Mark Manson]

Got it.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Cool. Thank you.

[Mark Manson]

My next surrounded claim is that a woman's body count doesn't matter. Hello.

[Jessica]

Hi.

[Mark Manson]

Nice to meet you.

[Jessica]

Nice to meet you. Okay, so personally, I do feel like a woman's body count does matter.

[Mark Manson]

Why is that?

[Jessica]

Because it's her value. I feel like if something's used, there's no value to it. It's just, I don't want to like, be mean, but it's just, it's dirty.

[Mark Manson]

Do you believe that women have value outside of their body and their sexuality?

[Jessica]

Of course. Yeah, of course. A woman can be smart and still sleep with a bunch of men, but why not be the whole package? Respect your body. It's your temple, it's a part of who you are. So respect it.

[Mark Manson]

Well, that's interesting actually. Why do you think it's disrespectful for a woman to sleep with multiple men?

[Jessica]

Because you're allowing different energies onto you.

[Mark Manson]

What if they're in committed, loving relationships? What if it's been like a long series of two, three year relationships over 10, 15 years?

[Jessica]

Well, then you wouldn't be dating a bunch of people. You wouldn't be sleeping with a bunch of people if you're committed, so.

[Mark Manson]

But you would have a high body count, right?

[Jessica]

To me, I feel like a high body count is realistically maybe over four or five. So when I think high body count, I'm thinking you're sleeping around, you're having one night stands. I respect it. You know, that's where agree to disagree comes into play.

[Will]

Sure.

[Jessica]

But me personally, I just. It's self control. Be mentally strong enough to say no. Be mentally strong enough to stick to one person.

[Mark Manson]

That's a totally valid preference. My argument is that a body count is. It's just one piece of data and I think it's a pretty arbitrary piece of data because people change, they have complicated life stories. You know, maybe you're a party girl in your twenties and then you settle down and get serious. You know, in your late 20s, maybe you've gone through a bunch of shit, you know, had a hard upbringing. So it's, it's. You have to address the individual in front of you, not just the number. Do you disagree with that?

[Jessica]

That's a good opinion, but I stand firm on mine. Nobody should all have a piece of you. I wouldn't want somebody to hear, yeah, I had your girl. Yeah, I got it.

[John Regolato]

You know, we got a pause there. You've been voted out by the majority.

[Jessica]

Okay.

[John Regolato]

Return to your seat. Thank you.

[Mark Manson]

Nice to meet you.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Great to meet you. I'm Michael. So when you say a woman's body count doesn't matter, I just wanted to ask if there are any conditions or qualifiers to that or do you literally mean it doesn't matter whether if she's a virgin or if she slept with 197 people just last month? It's totally irrelevant to everything. You shouldn't take it into consideration at all.

[Mark Manson]

I mean, obviously some people are going to have certain Values, like if you're religious, for instance, or if you have like, certain social beliefs. My point around this, specifically, if I'm going to clarify the claim, is that it matters if you're a single man and you're meeting a woman on the list of things that you should be concerned about, that you should be worried about. It is so low on that list that you shouldn't even think about it. You should be primarily concerned, is she trustworthy? Do you communicate well? Is she fun to be around? Do you have shared values? Do you see yourselves going long term together? What she's done in the past is a very, very tiny, tiny factor in all of those things.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Yeah. So I think that that's interesting, but I would say that I think that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that body count and sleeping around and having a lot of sexual partners and experiences actually directly relates to a lot of those traits that you mentioned. So I'm specifically thinking about a study or meta analysis from the University of Utah which found that the more sort of sexual history that you have, the more body counts that you have, the higher the predictability of divorce is. So I think that the specific study that I'm referencing over if the woman slept as, let's say over 10 women is what I think it was. That cohort had by far the highest divorce rate or predictability of divorce. And I think that that's pretty intuitive, right? Like if I had a wife and you had a wife and my wife slept with three women and your wife slept with 4, 40 women, and you know, we're hanging out and let's say the pool guy comes over and he's gonna open up our pool, whose wife do you think has a higher likelihood when the pool guy's 18 pack is out, whose wife do you think has the higher likelihood of sleeping with the pool guy? It's a little bit obvious, right, that the answer is the woman with 40 plus bodies. And I think that makes sense, right? They have more sexual experience, they have more things that they're using a comparison based off of. It's part of a larger social trend where we're being a little bit more flippant or we're succumbing to our hedonistic desires, whereas somebody who doesn't do those things is probably a little bit more of a loyal partner.

[Mark Manson]

So I don't think it's obvious that the wife who has slept with 40 people would be more likely to sleep with the pool guy. Because let me turn that around for you. Somebody who is dating somebody or marrying somebody who's very sexually experienced, they have had a lot of different experiences. So they're going to have a better understanding of what they like, what they want. And so when they commit to you, they're making a much better formed commitment. And so as long as there is trust and integrity in that relationship.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

As long as you trust that your wife is being honest to you and being honest about her experiences and being honest about what she wants, there's no increased likelihood that she's gonna sleep with the pool guy. And by the way, that same study that you just mentioned, what's interesting about it is that women who slept from between three to nine different partners are actually less likely to get divorced than women who slept with one or two partners prior to meeting their husbands.

[John Regolato]

Okay, we gotta pause there. You've been voted out by the majority.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Thank you.

[Mark Manson]

Yep. Thank you.

[Jamori]

Jamori.

[Mark Manson]

Nice to meet you.

[Jamori]

Nice to meet you, man. Okay, so that a woman's body count does not matter if we both go to a used car lot. One car is totaled. One car has the engine blown out twice. Head gasket never works, always has to be replaced. Another car has a fender bender. Which one you taking?

[Mark Manson]

I reject the analogy because it presupposes that there's something about sex that is destructive to a body. I actually think a better version of that analogy is if you just bought the first car you ever test drove, how likely are you going to be satisfied with that car versus if you go out and test drive five, six, seven cars, get an understanding of their features, what you like about them, what you don't like, then you're able to make a much better informed decision.

[Jamori]

So again, which one would you rather take? The one that's had all these problems or the one that's had the fender bender?

[Mark Manson]

I told you, I reject the analogy.

[Jamori]

Okay, so we're gonna test drive Six different cars. Seven different cars.

[Mark Manson]

Sure.

[Jamori]

8, 9, 20. Why can't we just stick with our one car?

[Mark Manson]

Let me ask you this.

[Jamori]

Yes.

[Mark Manson]

A lot of men treat body count as a proxy for trust.

[Mauro]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

And so what I ask guys is, I say, imagine two women. One of them is a virgin. She has zero sexual experience.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Sure.

[Mark Manson]

Fender bender. But you catch her lying to you. She doesn't keep her word. She's unreliable. And then there's a woman who, let's say she's been with, I don't know, 10 guys, whatever. But she's honest with you. She always shows up when she says she's gonna show Up. She does what she says she's gonna do. She's very loving. She's very caring. She's never broken your trust once. Which one is likely to be a better partner?

[Jamori]

The first one. Because she's had 10 different partners. Why she had 10 different relationships. Why haven't those worked out?

[Mark Manson]

Well, it would. You would have to ask her that and find out.

[Jamori]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

Because people are complicated and they have different life stories.

[Jamori]

Right? So let's ask a question here. If a woman asks me, what do I do for work? How tall am I? How much do I bring at home?

[John Regolato]

Why?

[Jamori]

Can I ask you, what's your body count? You have standards. Why can I have a standard?

[Mark Manson]

Standards are fine, but. But I think all of those things that you just listed are arbitrary standards. And if I was surrounded by women right now, one of my claims would be, height shouldn't matter. Ultimately, when you look at what drives relationship satisfaction, relationship success, these things are very low on the list. Yet we tend to focus on them. We tend to over index on them because they're very easy to measure. It's very easy to, like, compare 4 versus 6 or 6 to 2 versus 5.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

11.

[Jamori]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

And so that's what everybody thinks about and talks about when it's actually, when you look at the research of, like, what makes for a happy relationship, these things aren't even on the map.

[Jamori]

Okay, so if a woman has, let's say, 12, 13, 17 bodies, how many relationships have you been in? Three. What's up with the other 14 people?

[Mark Manson]

She probably likes to party.

[Jamori]

Then go party. We don't have to be together, but you can.

[Mark Manson]

Or maybe she used to like the party, but now she's ready to settle down.

[Jamori]

Not with me. Go. If you, if you open, if you, if you can decide who you open your legs for. You can't decide who gets down on one knee for you.

[Mark Manson]

Can, can I, can I ask why not with you?

[Jamori]

If everybody's had a turn and nobody's enjoyed it, why do I want to get you now?

[John Regolato]

All right, we got pause there. You've been voted out by the majority.

[Mark Manson]

Let's just get good.

[Glenn]

Doing. Well, my name is Glenn.

[Mark Manson]

Nice to meet you.

[Glenn]

So, you know, I'm going to concede with you. Body count doesn't matter to the way that people do. Think about it. Okay? There's no dickometer in front of a top of a woman's vagina that tells you how many thrusts per minute that she's had. Right. So let's, let's. Let's talk about There is. I mean, I haven't seen one.

[Mark Manson]

We agree on that.

[Glenn]

Okay, cool. But let's talk about what a sexual risk does talk about. Every time you have sex, you're putting yourself in a very risky situation. Right. A woman is getting penetrated, A man is having his way with her. So if a woman has a high body count, it does speak to the level of risk that she's willing to put herself in. And that could be questionable to be like, oh, but she's willing to put herself in risky situations like this. What other risky situations that she might be able to put our relationship in? If this is a behavior pattern, that's where I would say body count matters. Most of the people are talking about, well, whether or other their body count matters because like they want to have a make sure she's pair bondable or whatever. A virgin will cheat on you just as quick as a woman that had a thousand bodies.

[Mark Manson]

I'm with you there 100%.

[Unidentified Secularist]

True.

[Glenn]

But when it comes to the behavior pattern, the characteristics, that speaks more to why body count could matter and should be factored in in the decision if you're going to be willing to take risks. I'm not trying to take some of these risks with you.

[Mark Manson]

I think you and I are actually pretty close on this. I agree with you that personality and character traits is ultimately what matters. But my argument is that there's much better ways to find out if somebody's a risk taking person than asking them for their body count.

[Glenn]

Yeah, you're never going to find out a woman's body count. Right.

[Mark Manson]

Well, and it's also just arbitrary. I mean, take her to a fucking theme park and see how many roller coasters she goes on. Like there's other ways to figure out

[Glenn]

if she gets on the carousel, if she chooses the carousel first. Right, I'm with you on that because I would say, you know what, observe what she can observe her behavior. How does she treat you? Does she treat you better than anyone else has ever tried?

[Mark Manson]

100% agree with you. My point though, and this is where body count is. I think a bad proxy for what you're talking about is that people are complicated, man. Yeah, people change, people grow. People go through phases. Like some people have liked up histories and backgrounds. Yeah, I was a mess when I was young. I racked up a huge body count. Now I'm in a very happy marriage. Body count is a weak data source.

[Glenn]

Oh yeah, I would say that in the grand scheme of things, but not in a micro correlative factor. Now let's be honest. Like, the most reason why people are saying the body count matters is because they don't have sex enough. They're actually, they're actually, they're.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

They're.

[Glenn]

They're more concerned about being her best. And, you know, Dr. Orion Tayaban on my own podcast said that, yeah, being her best is more important than being her first.

[Jamori]

Yes.

[Glenn]

Because her first could be this guy who's like 63 tall. He might be a football pro ball player. Yes. And you want her to be following up after that one body count? Probably not.

[Mark Manson]

The body count obsession is. Is men's insecurities being projected onto the woman?

[Glenn]

I agree with you. But the fact that it does matter when you're. When you're factoring in risky behavior, that's more important.

[John Regolato]

All right, we've got a pause there. You've been voted out by the majority.

[Mark Manson]

Cheers, man. How you doing, man?

[Ross]

Ross. So a woman's body count doesn't matter? That's the claim. I would argue that it's a blanket statement. Like, I would argue that most men want a beautiful balance between experience and exclusivity. Say, for, like, the city boys in the club, they want a girl with a high body count because they don't want an inexperienced, you know, horrible lay.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Yeah.

[Ross]

And people or men, they want a woman that no one's had because they don't want the homies talking about, oh, I had her too. And, and also, like Glenn said, I think that patterns matter, too. These people that we're talking about are driven by patterns. And so that data is totally valuable based on how they're going to act when times get tough. Maybe they are disloyal sexually. Maybe that's part of their pattern.

[Mark Manson]

My argument here, though, is that all this kind of pontificating of, like, what does it mean if she's been with six guys? Or what does it mean if she's been with one guy? Like, it could mean this, it could mean that. Just talk to her. Just talk to her. Go on the date, get to know her. That's gonna tell you 100 times more than, like, a number in a spreadsheet.

[Ross]

I understand that. Walking both sides of the line, both walks of life. I would like to have my partner be less experienced and more loyal so that her sexual compatibility is malleable to mine. You know, we get to mold our sexual partners to our liking and. And vice versa. And I think that that's a lot more possible when the partners haven't stacked bodies to this guy.

[Mark Manson]

What I'm arguing against is kind of this social judgment. All this, like, viral content of shaming women for body counts and all this stuff. It's like, that works for you. That's great. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that's gonna work for every man out there or every woman who's been with so many guys should be shamed for it. Who cares?

[John Regolato]

Okay, pause. You've been voted out by the majority.

[Ross]

Awesome.

[John Regolato]

Appreciate it.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Patrick.

[Mark Manson]

Sick outfit, man.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

Thank you. Thank you. I have two questions. Number one, do you have any employees that work for you?

[Mark Manson]

Yes.

[Glenn]

You do.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

Now, did you look into their history when you hired them?

[Mark Manson]

Of course.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

Of course. If you saw someone with a job history of maybe 1, 2, 3, 3 jobs, long period of time, or someone with 15 jobs was there for a couple weeks. Three weeks. You called their employees. I didn't. They didn't last. Which one would you pick based off of? If they're equally qualified in the interview?

[Mark Manson]

Whoever interviewed better.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

I was saying they're both equally qualified on the interview. So why are you looking into the history if it doesn't. If someone's meeting for the first time they interviewed, great. Why would you even bother looking into

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

the history of it?

[Mark Manson]

So without quibbling with the analogy, which I could, if we're going to stick with the job interview analogy, I actually think this is an analogy that works in my favor.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

Because you can have people who have only been at one company and have terrific experience, and then they get on the interview and you realize that they don't know a damn thing for sure.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And then there's other people who have worked at 10 different companies and jumped around every single year. But then you get on the interview and you realize that there's a clear explanation for that, that they have a diversity of experience and actually they're a really good fit. My argument here is really that forget body count. Just talk to her.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

I agree with, I personally agree with that. I don't think you have to ask a woman her body count to know. Because if you just pay attention, her actions will show you everything you need to know.

[Mark Manson]

Her actions and attitudes will tell you everything you need to know.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

And then I'm also assuming. My other question was, I'm assuming that you're talking about body count matters when it just comes to relationship, not value as a person. Correct. Because I don't, I, I, I would say, like, I don't think people think someone's, like, less valuable as a human being just based off how much sex they had. But maybe to a relationship, some guys may find that less valuable.

[Mark Manson]

Someone that's been around, you know, Some people do. So.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

But to. To that latter point, there is absolutely some demeaning language within the manosphere around women around that. And it's. And that. That is. That's very much what I disagree.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

I mean, I think that's just projection insecurity. Because they want to disqualify someone from the beginning to, you know, sue their rejection personally is what I think.

[John Regolato]

Pause there. You run out of time. We're gonna move on to the next prompt.

[Ross]

Thanks, man.

[Unidentified Rational Thinker]

All right, thank you.

[Mark Manson]

My next surrounded claim is that porn has done more damage to men than feminism has. What's up, man?

[Unidentified Father]

Mark.

[Shawn Voorh]

Shawn Voorh.

[Mark Manson]

Nice to meet you.

[Shawn Voorh]

Nice to meet you too, bro. Feminism Straight pipeline to abortion.

[Jamori]

Okay.

[Shawn Voorh]

Abortion kills upward of a million Americans every single year. 3000 men, women and children dead a day. Right. If we're talking about comparatively on what's had the greatest impact on taking away manpower from America. Have to say without a doubt, Fibonacci feminism by far. What do you have to say about that?

[Mark Manson]

I was not expecting to go down the abortion road. I don't see how this relates to like men's mental health and agency in the world.

[Shawn Voorh]

We're comparing feminism specifically, Right?

[John Regolato]

Yeah.

[Shawn Voorh]

To porn.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Shawn Voorh]

So of course porn is degenerative as well. I say we get rid of them. Both of them. Feminism and porn.

[Jamori]

Okay.

[Shawn Voorh]

Definitely. But if we're comparing.

[Mark Manson]

Sure.

[Shawn Voorh]

Feminism and the destruction that it's had on men as a whole in America versus porn, we'd have to like say that the lives actually being taken.

[Mark Manson]

Obviously you see abortion as murder. So your argument is that the murder of all of the aborted fetuses is vastly outweighs any damage that porn could ever do to extremely.

[Shawn Voorh]

Another caveat to that the porn and feminism come from the same place. Could talk about that later on a different.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

And we can get more.

[Shawn Voorh]

The. The same destruction of the nuclear family.

[John Regolato]

Okay.

[Mark Manson]

Was because porn has been around for thousands of years.

[Shawn Voorh]

Let's say. Let's say the. The people who own of right now. Let's say that the most profound ability to make the America's daughters prostitutes from the young. From the young age all the way to the high age. Right. On a vast majority. What they said what, 35 to 40% of women right now. Over. Over 15, 8. Excuse me, over 18 going up into 45 are on OnlyFans right now.

[Mark Manson]

That's not true.

[Shawn Voorh]

Absolutely ridiculous.

[Mark Manson]

But yes, I actually have the actual numbers from OnlyFans themselves.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Please give me that.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. So there are 3.7 million total creators on OnlyFans, 1.1 million in the U.S. about 90% are women, and only 70% are doing adult material. So that equates to about 700,000 women doing adult material in the U.S. which is roughly 3% of women between 18 and 40. Still a lot.

[Shawn Voorh]

You would say that's more destructive than feminism. When feminism gave you the sexual liberation movement to even empower women to believe that you get some type of power

[Mark Manson]

from porn is more destructive for men than feminism is.

[Mauro]

Explain.

[Mark Manson]

So the average male currently first got access to porn when he was 11 years old. By 18, 90% of men are using it regularly or have used it regularly in the past. Men who use porn regularly, you see worse metrics across the board. More likely to be depressed, more likely to have body dysmorphia, more likely to have erectile dysfunction, more likely to commit suicide, more likely to have poor relationships. This is ubiquitous. It's available literally for every young man on the entire planet. I mean, one thing that I would probably agree with you guys is that feminism, there's some good and there's some bad, especially the last 10 years, especially

[Shawn Voorh]

the feminism that promoted high body counts being okay and not mattering. Right? Well, so the same effects of the mental depression, all the other degenerative.

[Mark Manson]

We're back to the body counts. Are we extremely important?

[Shawn Voorh]

I'm mad I didn't get up the last one to be able to see. What about the manosphere's advice is making you like, is not. Not okay with that. But it's. It's kind of almost obvious.

[John Regolato]

All right, we got a pause there. You've been voted out.

[Will]

Appreciate you.

[Jessica]

Hello, Jessica.

[Mark Manson]

Mark.

[Jessica]

Nice to meet you. Porn is more dangerous or damaging?

[Mark Manson]

Damaging.

[Jessica]

Damaging to men. Okay, so porn use is selective. Not every man uses it, but every man is subjected to feminism in their society, in their marriages, in their workplace, in their home. You can choose autonomously not to watch porn. You can't choose to end no fault divorce, which is exposing children 70% more likelihood to being abused. Same with the women opening the welfare program for single mothers, which is increasing the crime rate, which is affecting all of society as a whole, not just men, singularly.

[Mark Manson]

If that were true, then you would expect to see male mental health decline in the most progressive countries in the world. Right? There are countries that are even more feminist than we are.

[Jessica]

Okay?

[Mark Manson]

Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, Australia. There are lots of them. You don't see the same decline in male mental health that you see here or in the uk?

[Jessica]

Are the populations the same in Germany and Sweden as they are in America?

[Mark Manson]

There's lots of differences, obviously. But my point is that if feminism was just by and large the problem for men's outcomes, then you would see a clear pattern across all of the most progressive countries of the world and you would not see men struggling in non feminist countries. So there are countries like China and Japan where men are struggling even more than they are here. That's an indicator that feminism is like not the root cause here.

[Jessica]

Okay, but it's. The argument is porn is doing more damage to men than feminism.

[Jamori]

Yes.

[Jessica]

You can choose as an autonomous adult male who's accountable for your own actions and behaviors, not to watch porn and engage in that activity. But, but you can't choose to avoid feminism in society.

[Mark Manson]

Correct. But it's, you know, if 11 year olds were getting access to cigarettes and alcohol every day, would you make the same argument that like, well, those 11 year olds, they can choose not to, well, indulge in cigarettes and alcohol, or would you tell the purveyors of the cigarettes and alcohol, get the hell out of the way?

[Jessica]

No, I would probably tell the parents, your child isn't autonomous. They can't make their own decisions, they can't consent. So you as a parent need to be more controlling over your child and their behavior. So children making equation between adult male and children is not the same because they're not autonomous like adults are.

[Mark Manson]

And porn is predominantly harming young boys.

[Jessica]

Absolutely.

[Shawn Voorh]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

Which is why we should probably have age restriction and identification on it for uses which has been shut down in places like Minneapolis.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, So I agree with you on that.

[Jessica]

So I think, I think we can mutually agree that porn is damaging to men and women and society. But if you're going to measure it, feminism has done more damage to society and men. Men's mental health, family economy, the nuclear family.

[Mark Manson]

I just don't see that in the data. Like, I, I don't.

[Jessica]

The data, the data and the results of feminism are out. And men's mental health, women's mental health has been worse than it's ever been in recorded history. More men and more women are committing suicide today than they ever have been in recorded history.

[Mark Manson]

When pre1970. Actually, funny enough, 1950s suicide rate was actually the all time high.

[Jessica]

Okay.

[Mark Manson]

It's complicated and I think we both agree that men in today's society are struggling greatly. But when you look at feminism as a hundred year project of Women's liberation, equal rights, voting rights, civil rights. I just think it gets scapegoated for a lot of others.

[John Regolato]

All right, pause there. You've been voted out. Please return to your seat.

[Unidentified Father]

So question, As a male feminist, aren't you okay with women doing porn? Aren't you okay with them having high body counts or because feminism tells women if they want to sleep around, that's totally fine, just like you said. So I'm confused. If porn is more destructive and feminism pushes that, they're allowed to do that. Get. There are some feminists, I'm not sure if you are one, who, who's anti porn? Maybe you're just pro sexuality, but anti porn. But how can you explain that to me?

[Mark Manson]

I am generally sex positive. People should be free to explore their sexuality as they see fit. I think, including women, I don't think that they should be demeaned or degraded for exploring that sexuality.

[Unidentified Father]

I get that. Wouldn't you then be okay with women doing pornography then?

[Mark Manson]

I am okay with women doing pornography. My issue is that is the ubiquity and the access that men have to it, particularly young men and young boys. The ease of which a 14 year old boy can spend an entire day just staring at porn for free.

[Unidentified Father]

True, but okay, so quick question. Are you a father? I'm assuming you are.

[Mark Manson]

I'm not.

[Unidentified Father]

Oh, you're not. Okay, well, I'm a father, right. So I have access to all the Internet in my house. If I want to, I could just block it off and not let my kids watch anything like that. Right. Which I do. My children aren't that age yet, but when they get to it, I would do it right. So that would kind of eliminate that. But my kids go outside or just watch them on tv. That pushes feminism or, or whatever the case may be. Or sometimes I've seen them where they're on just kids YouTube and there something pops up for like only fans or something. I'm just like, how is this popping up on kids YouTube?

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Right.

[Unidentified Father]

Which is. Which you would think has parental control on it. Sure. So that's something that's unavoidable. Where I could just put something on my Internet says, hey, anything that has adult content on there, my children cannot see.

[Mark Manson]

The first thing I'll say is that do you think that your kids are going to get around those blocks?

[Unidentified Father]

Because I hope not.

[Mark Manson]

Because statistically they, they will.

[Unidentified Father]

Well, maybe I'll get it from a friend or something.

[Mark Manson]

Go to a friend's house or whatever the data is. I think it's it's 90. I think it's 94. 92% of boys by 18 have been exposed to pornography. And, yeah, roughly 70, 75 of them are exposed to it. So you have four.

[Unidentified Father]

Are you full ban on it?

[Mark Manson]

I'm for two things. One is I do think there should be tighter restrictions around it, and I do think there should probably be some regulation around it.

[Jamori]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Father]

Because you could just turn on a camera, have sex and say it's porn and pay the woman. And technically, she was a prostitute.

[Mauro]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Secondly, I think there should be just a lot of education and awareness built around this. And this is one of the things that I do in my work, is just letting guys know, like, hey, dude, looking at porn every day for years is like your brain.

[John Regolato]

No, I agree.

[Mark Manson]

And your dick.

[John Regolato]

So pause there. You've been voted out. Please return to your seat.

[Mark Manson]

Thanks, man. Welcome back.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Thank you so much. All right, so I think when we talk about feminism, we have to be very specific, because I agree with you that, you know, Elizabeth Cady Stanton's declaration of Sentiments did not create the porn problem that we have today so big into first wave and then even some of those elements of second wave wave feminism that secured rights and freedoms. I think that the problem is when you get to these third and fourth waves, we start to get this demoralization of men. We start to get this narrative that patriarchy is this thing, this overarching thing in society, and that men are the primary sources of everything that's wrong with our culture. And I think that you see a major withdrawal there. What's interesting, or maybe a little bit ironic about the claim is that I think that we're kind of looking. Looking at two things that are feeding into each other. I think modern feminism, gender feminism, is by and large responsible or contributing to a lot of the loneliness and withdrawal that we see, which is causing that uptick in pornography, which you and I are in major agreement, totally unhelpful and detrimental to society and men in general.

[Mark Manson]

You had me up until those last few sentences. I think we agreed on everything up until there. I agree. A lot of these statements about young boys being told that they are just inherently problematic for existing.

[Shawn Voorh]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

Like, these are all. We're on the same page there. Like, those things just are terrible narratives to have in the culture.

[Unidentified Secularist]

Terrible.

[Mark Manson]

That said, I personally don't think they are widespread enough or ubiquitous enough to really point at them and say, that's the problem. Because when you look at the problem, the problems that have been affecting young men and boys they go back decades, they go back to the 80s and 90s before any of this stuff started. So I think it's a little bit of a red herring. I think it's a lot of political talking points that get a lot of attention. Right. It's like we hear about something crazy happening in elementary school, everybody gets riled up and freaked out and we're like, that's the problem. And it's not. That's one school, it's a minority case. It's something that hasn't been ubiquitous for more than a few years. Whereas there are like real structural problems and issues that have been going on for decades that have been harming young men that just never get talked about. And I feel like pornography is one of the larger ones.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Yeah, so that's really interesting. I think that you made a point prior when you were talking about sort of the shift in the economy that we're seeing kind of going from physical based careers to more social based careers and that women on average tend to prefer those social based careers and that's tend to be where the economy is going. So I'm totally with you there. I think that's one of the major issues. I think the over prescription of methylphenidate medication, pathologizing, male play behavior, fatherlessness, all of these things are contributing. But again, the problem is that the left controls the megaphones of society. So the left controls Hollywood, the left controls mainstream media. And the left is part of this cultural movement about patriarchy and toxic masculinity and the, the demoralization of young men at every twist and turn. Starting in elementary schools which are by and large dominated by women who are teachers, particularly left leaning women who sort of propagate this narrative that men are these really, really dangerous pathologizing cretins of society. And what do they do? They withdraw. They say, okay, well if I participate in society, I become evil. Maybe I'll just with. And maybe I'll just hang out in my mother's basement. Maybe I'll watch porn. Cause if I don't want to be evil, well, at least I could be harmless. At least I could do nothing. So I think you and I are in agreement here a little bit. Right.

[Mark Manson]

But again, mostly I think we agree on the problem. I don't think we agree on the explanation, which is I would say are all of those messages that young men are getting recently, is that actually causing the issue or is it just messaging that's not helpful. And I would argue that it's just messaging that's not Helpful. And to your point about the left having the megaphone, obviously that's changing the last few years. The fact that we're here right now is part of that changing.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Yeah. Independent media is doing a tremendous job in breaking down those barriers.

[Mark Manson]

And my fear with the manosphere, the reason I'm here today is because I want these issues to be brought up to the public consciousness in a way that is healthy and not attached to all sorts of. Of toxic ideologies.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Yeah, I mean, look, I agree with you there. I think that where I would push back heavily is that I think you're downplaying a little bit just how serious and pervasive these narratives are that's coming out of the third and fourth wave feminist movement, gender feminism, however you kind of want to call it. And when you have all of those cultural megaphones in the ear of young men telling them, you are the problem, be more like a woman. Suppress those urges. Don't be aggressive. Don't go out and work hard. Don't bother tuning into those masculine urges. Those then get suppressed. And what happens when they get suppressed? They manifest in these really sort of crude and dangerous ways. And I think that's what you see, why the manosphere even exists in the first place. Right. I think that one could kind of understand the manosphere as maybe a response to gender feminism or a backlash to gender feminism, which I think is obvious to predict. Right. Of course, such a radical movement denigrating young men would produce sort of a fascist or psychopathic backlash that is equally unhelpful. So I think that the main thing is we need to change the narrative in the culture honoring what makes men men. Not saying that men and women are interchangeable, that men need to be more like women, that men's sort of innate urges and desires around physical strength, around aggression, those could actually be channeled in super helpful ways. I mean, the things we gotta pause there.

[John Regolato]

We're out of time.

[Glenn]

Of course.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Of course. All right. Well, it was great, Mark. I really love your work and everything you do. Thank you.

[Will]

Thank you.

[Mark Manson]

My final surrounded claim is that the most attractive men are those who like and respect women. At zocdoc, we know being a healthy adult is like living in a video game. Every day has side quests, taxes, laundry,

[Unidentified Skeptic]

birthdays, and just when you're leveling up, you have to book a doctor. The insurance portal crashes. They put you on hold.

[Mark Manson]

Your doctor doesn't take your plan. Game over. We see you. So we made booking a doctor easy.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Download sockdoc. Search by specialty Insurance and availability book instantly. No cheat codes required.

[Mark Manson]

Find a doctor you love with ZocDoc. Welcome back.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Thank you. I think they're kind of two different hypothetical case studies that would show that this isn't the case. I actually wish what I'm about to say wasn't the case.

[Unidentified Father]

Okay.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

But there is the. We all know the example of the man who is really not a great guy. And you know, her friends are telling her, like, oh, you shouldn't date this guy, but she's just so attracted to him that she's kind of hooked into that. And then the contour side, we know the kind of guys that are really nice, who are really respectful, who are buying dinners, who are getting flowers, who are doing all these things, and they're just not that attractive. So no matter how respectful they are, no matter how good they are, no matter how kind of nice guy they are, and that doesn't mean that there's a continuum of you have to be a bad boy, you have to be a nice guy. I think every good man should be both. You should be attractive, you should be strong, you should be like kind of masculine energy, and you should be a nice person. But these are two different continuums. And so it's not being nice and being respectful and kind of being really polite to him is what makes you attractive. It's actually kind of irrelevant.

[Mark Manson]

Okay, let me introduce another dimension to that spectrum. I would argue that nice guys are not actually nice. They're usually being.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Oh, for sure.

[Mark Manson]

They're usually being nice in a transactional way. Right.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

It's like, I bought you flowers, now will you like me?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, yeah, let's have sex.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

You know, and it's.

[Mark Manson]

And women smell that a mile away. And it's a complete turnoff and obviously creepy. Yeah, it is very creepy. I would argue that assholes are also quite transactional.

[Mauro]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

And the only difference between the nice guy and the asshole is the nice guy is transactional and a very manipulative. Here, let me buy you flowers so I can get what I want. The asshole is like, I'm just going to say whatever I need to say to you to get what I want.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

And that works, unfortunately, often enough in these kind of short term relationships.

[Mark Manson]

It works in the short term and it works with insecure women. Those are the two circumstances that it works in. There is a third type of guy who is just not transactional.

[Ross]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And is like, this is who I am. I like you. Do you want to go out? And if she says yes, great. If she says, no. Great. He's going to go find somebody else. Those are the most attractive men.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Right. So can we agree that your claim is false for insecure women?

[Mark Manson]

Not necessarily, because.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

What did you just say then about how those kind of asshole guys is effective on insecure.

[Mark Manson]

It is effective on insecure women, but I think also just being a confident, honest man can also be effective with insecure women.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

But I feel like you've already conceded that it. That those guys are attractive to them.

[Mark Manson]

Yes.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Okay, sounds good. Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

So now looking at the secure women of where you have this third axis of how honest you are.

[Shawn Voorh]

Right.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Which is, as we would agree, should be the most important axis of like how, you know, truthful you are if you're trying to be transactional.

[Mark Manson]

And it is.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

I wish it were that way.

[Mark Manson]

It is, it is. So actually, David Buss, who I'm sure

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

you're familiar with, I actually don't know who that is.

[Mark Manson]

Okay. David Buss is like the godfather of sexual mating research across the world. He's done some of the largest cross cultural studies on what men and women find attractive, what draws them into a partner. His work across 37 different cultures found that women prioritize consistently across all cultures, kindness and intelligence above all other traits in terms of long term partners.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

But the problem is that's of relationships that have already succeeded. Right. And so in the relationships that you say, it's, oh, he's so nice to me, he's so kind to me, he's so good to me. But she only wants those things from a man she's already attracted to, to

[Mark Manson]

begin with and that she knows is being nice and kind genuinely and authentically and is not just trying to please her or impress her or.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

For sure.

[Mark Manson]

And this is the thing, is that the asshole gets mistaken for a confident man because he's not controlled by what she wants.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Well, that often is.

[John Regolato]

We gotta pause there. You've been voted out.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Good to see you.

[Mark Manson]

Welcome back.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Okay, so are you implying men in the manosphere don't like or respect women? Is that your implication of the, of the claim?

[Mark Manson]

I. Yes. I would classify a number of, of predominant manosphere influencers as not liking and being respectful towards women.

[Shawn Voorh]

Yes.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

So when you say like mean just like they are not attracted to them, like would you say the manosphere consists of homosexual men? Or what do you. What's the like about?

[Mark Manson]

Maybe in some cases.

[Mauro]

Okay.

[Mark Manson]

I would say like as in genuinely enjoy the company of women without having to trying to get something out of them. And in terms of respect I would say like respect for their autonomy and their ability to live their own life, like not trying to control them or domineer them in some way.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Okay, so you just say like men and women are just equal in kind of your sense, right?

[Mark Manson]

Yes.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Yeah. Well, if I say they're equal in value but not equal in capability, does that resonate with you at all?

[Mark Manson]

Sure.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

So would you say that men are just naturally more in a leadership role and that then in order to protect someone in a leadership role, you have to have some masculine traits that are going to protect that woman, which sometimes having some type of authority, saying, hey, you shouldn't do this, I'm going to protect you in this sense. Which doesn't mean you're disrespecting them. You actually respect them so much that you want to take care of them.

[Mark Manson]

I disagree with that. Men are typically in the leadership role. A lot of women have good leadership qualities as well.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Yeah, well, you say like broad, like in different aspects of like business or stuff. I'm talking about just relationship wise. Women will lead in nurturing the children and the men will lead. Lead in protecting and providing for that.

[Mark Manson]

And in some relationships it's vice versa.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

But would you say for the vast majority. Because we had to speak in generalities.

[Unidentified Feminist Critic]

Right.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

And generalities are usually our men are in that leadership role and that pertains to work majority of the time. Right. There's always going to be exceptions, but we don't harp on an exception.

[Mark Manson]

I would say leadership, the leadership roles, both people in the relationship take leadership roles in different aspects of the relationship. I would agree with you there. And if you want to say that men typically take a leadership role when it comes to, say, protecting the family. Right, But I don't necessarily think that's always true and I don't necessarily think that we necessarily extrapolate larger assumptions out of that.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Can you give me an example where in the manosphere a man doesn't respect the woman and you're just kind of.

[Mark Manson]

I mean, I just watched the Netflix documentary last night. I mean, there's probably a hundred instances of these guys calling women stupid, horrible whores, worthless, saying you have to control them. If she breaks your trust, you ruin her life, that she's nothing without you, like all these sorts of things. And I would classify all those as disrespect. Fundamentally disrespectful.

[John Regolato]

Okay, all right, we gotta pause there. You've been voted out.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Got it.

[Will]

Cool.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Thank you.

[Unidentified Secularist]

So I don't actually disagree with what you said when it comes to hypergamy in society. I saw you mention Myron Gaines earlier. I don't necessarily agree with everything Myron Gaines says, but what advice are you actually giving men in society that's better than what Myron Gaines gives them when it comes to combating hypergamy?

[Mark Manson]

And by, just to clarify, by hypergamy, you mean the fact that women tend to prefer men who have more resources and more status? Yes. So I would say that it is true. Women are generally more attracted to men who have more resources, more status. It's just a fact of life. But I would argue that you can make up a lot of that simply through character, behavior, shared values, shared life experiences, and the way you communicate with a woman.

[Unidentified Secularist]

But not when it comes with promiscuity. Right? Because, like, if, if it's the case that men want to get married, you're probably not going to want promiscuous women. And I think promiscuity is bad for men and women, but I think it's worse for women because it causes male promiscuity because of hypergamy in society. A lot of these men are secularist men. They don't follow any sort of ecclesiastical authority when it comes to the way that they govern relationships. That's why you see Myron Gaines giving out advice like 100 women or 50 women or whatever his advice is. And again, I don't agree prescriptively with a lot of what he says, but I don't know that secularists actually hand out better advice than that. I don't, I think that I don't know.

[Mark Manson]

My, my advice to men, it has been and has always been is that you gotta get out there and meet lots of women face to face. Hypergamy is not an issue if we're not filtering most of our dating options through a screen that we're swiping through every three seconds. Right. It's like when people's attention span when it comes to filtering a mate is limited to just a handful of seconds and like the most superficial facts about them, of course they're gonna over index on those superficial traits and those, and those unimportant facts, right? Whereas, like, if you actually get face to face with women, you actually meet them, you find some that you gel with, you vibe with, that you have like, good rapport with, you have shared values, you have shared dreams, Right? Like this can.

[Will]

Sure.

[Unidentified Secularist]

But that's not a big percentage of women.

[John Regolato]

We gotta pause there. You've been voted out.

[Mark Manson]

It's a very large. How are you doing?

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Good.

[Shawn Voorh]

How Are you.

[Will]

So I want to kind of clarify our terms as far as attractiveness. Yeah, I would say is it the likelihood of landing that first date or is it like a successful marriage?

[Mark Manson]

I would say both. With. With. I will concede that that first date, it's. It's a bit more complex. Like there are a bunch of asshole Ish things you can do to get that first date, but you don't have to do them.

[Will]

Okay, I believe, I believe I agree with that. But what's being preached online in otherwise, and that's what we're seeing as far as, like, the fantasy side of what women consume. Like, women porn is often the vampire pirate, the 50 stage of gray guy. He was a jerk. So we see that. What's something we gonna, like, put onto ourselves to get that date? And often it works. Being that jerk gets you that first date.

[Mark Manson]

And if you want to be the

[Will]

nice guy after that, I support that. And that's something you should do.

[Mark Manson]

Can I ask you maybe a somewhat personal question? Go for it. Have you ever watched porn that you were like, I would never actually do this?

[Jamori]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, me too.

[Will]

But that's.

[Mark Manson]

That's 50 shades of gray.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

I see.

[Will]

But there is a correlation between the, the guys that are jerks in real life. Do you land that first date?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. And then they lose the girl. And you see this happen over and over. I mean, I. I saw it in my line of work. Being a jerk, it kind of feigns confidence.

[John Regolato]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

Like women. Women have a very finely tuned radar for a guy who is going to be easily pushed over by her. And so they're generally very attracted by guys who are not easily pushed over, that they have their own thing going on. They're very confident, strong in their own. You know, they believe in themselves. They know what they're doing, they know what they're about. And so if she meets a jerk, that is a little bit of a false positive, positive signal. He has no actual character to back that up. And so it quickly either fizzles out or it spirals into a very toxic relationship dynamic that, you know, we've all seen before. You can convey that same lack of pushoverness without being a dick.

[Will]

Okay, thank you.

[John Regolato]

Okay, pause there. The flags are up.

[Mark Manson]

Thanks.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Thank you.

[Mark Manson]

Nice suit, man.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Thank you, man. I appreciate it.

[John Regolato]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Andrew Tate, coach Greg Adams, Al Furonomy. There's many men in the manosphere that are spreading a 100% positive message. Women love jerks. That's 100%. You know that I disagree. What I want to do is I want to go back and kind of round this all together. Men have suffered for years. When you think about the gladiator, when you think about Thomas Edison and the extremity that you need to focus in on something as a man to create these amazing things that we have in the world. Men have always been extreme. Men have always had a nuclear focus. We have the manosphere. Taking men away from pornography, taken men away from loneliness. What are things that you're doing for these men to take them away from pornography?

[Mark Manson]

So I've been writing for young men since 2008. Between 2008 and 2013, I coached hundreds of young guys. Guys like all the guys here in this circle. It was my career. I care very deeply about finding young men who are struggling and helping uplift them, because I was one of those young men too, at one point. And if you're bringing men together to improve themselves, that's amazing. But if you're bringing them together under the auspices that feminism and women are ruining society and that, and that you have to control a woman to have a relationship with her, that you have to be the dictator in your family, you're setting up these men for failure down the road.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

But have men always been the dictators of their family? Men have always led, and that's what we're missing today. That's why we have loneliness. That's why you have time. Men didn't have time to watch porn years and years ago. That's why men have time to watch porn today.

[Mark Manson]

But there's also a lot of up things that we've done throughout history that we stopped doing right. Like we used to kill people for looking at us the wrong way. We started wars over nothing for most of human history. Like, just because we used to do something for thousands of years doesn't mean we should keep doing it. And being the dictator of the family, I would categorize as one of those things.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

The other thing that I want to focus on, the extremity. You do agree that men have always been extreme? Men have always been laser focused. Men have always needed to be able to put that energy into something. Yeah, sure. Okay. So being one of the leaders of men that are out there, I think we should have 100 more Andrew Tates. Why don't we need more of that?

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Why?

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Why wouldn't you want more Andrew Tate's? Given that message, I agree with you

[Mark Manson]

that we need more voices helping young men. I take issue with the packaging and the Persona around it. It's going to backfire. For a lot of these men down the road.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Okay. But you know, anytime there's a huge gathering, there's always going to be things that backfire. Nothing's going to be perfect. You know that.

[Mauro]

Sure.

[Mark Manson]

But it's also, we should call out the thing that's going to backfire.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Right?

[Mark Manson]

It's like, hey, hey, hey. No, no, that's a little bit too much, man. Like, let's step.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

But how can you. But how can you call it out if there are men who are benefiting? If there are men who are changing their life, if there are men who were in horrible situations that have learned that men suffer, that men go through things, this is somebody who I can look to and borrow their energy and be able to take something positive from.

[Mark Manson]

You can definitely benefit from somebody who is giving you good advice for bad reasons. If you just have nothing, that good advice is gonna lift you up and you're gonna have something. The problem is the fact that the advice is given for bad reasons. Those bad reasons are gonna eventually catch up with you. And so you're gonna struggle to maintain relationships, you're gonna struggle to build long term community. You're gonna struggle to relate and, and respect the world. Right. You're gonna hit a ceiling in terms of the value that you're able to create as a man. If you see everything as adversarial all

[John Regolato]

the time, we're out of time. I wanna lob one quick talking point. If you guys could digest the fact that Andrew Tate actually produces pornography. Cause it sounds like you're against porn or you see it as a negative, but his career started through the production of it.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Unfortunately, I don't agree with that at all. Just like a lot of men over time who have got their start doing terrible things. It seems like also that's where he got his start and got his money from. So I don't agree with that at all. But just like as we know as men, men are always going to suffer. Men are always going to fall down, men are always going to hit their head and what are they going to do? Men will bounce back and come back and start doing other things that do benefit society. Men have always done that.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Agree?

[Mark Manson]

Yes, absolutely. Can women do that?

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Of course. Of course women.

[Mark Manson]

So a woman with a high body count can bounce back and change?

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Of course she can. A woman also has that ability to do that. Yes, yes.

[John Regolato]

All right, we've got pause there. Thank you. We've run out of time. All right, Mark, great job. We have finished your prompts, but for this Final section of. I want you to look around the circle and select somebody to come to the center and debate you for 10 minutes based on their claim.

[Jamori]

Crap.

[Mark Manson]

Let's do this guy. I forgot your name. We were like, it was really getting good. And then you got voted off.

[Will]

My name is Will.

[Mark Manson]

Nice to meet you.

[Will]

My surrounding claim is that women care more about looks than personality.

[Mark Manson]

What makes you say that?

[Will]

All these things that you've been talking about that. That you need to be authentic with your partner, your girlfriend, or whatever the date you're on. Like when you're on a first date, for example, and let's say you're on a first date with like, a really pretty girl, right? If she pays you a compliment or she says genuinely, if she says anything, you already know it. It's coming from a place of authenticity. Because this girl probably has like 10 dates this week and she has lots on her plate. She's thinking about a lot of things, so she doesn't really have the energy or to put on like a facade. And I think that most people can sense that. And from what you're saying, women can really sense that. If a guy is saying, here's the flowers, here's the reservation, or whatever it is, and they feel like it's a transactional thing, because for a lot of guys, it is like most guys are not going on a date every single day. They're going on like one date a month with a girl. They actually like, they don't have options. And so that they. They. When they're actually there, they're so stressed and they need things to go perfectly that they behave strangely. And I think that women can perceive that.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Will]

So what you're describing is like, you need to be this authentic guy that if. If a girl blows you off, you say, hey, no worries. Yeah, that guy is a guy with a lot of options. And the guy with a lot of options is usually just a really handsome. I mean, that's what it is.

[Mark Manson]

What would you say about examples of ugly dudes with smoking hot girls?

[Will]

It's such a question. I mean, so now you're getting into SMB, like sexual market value stuff. So I believe that. I mean, obviously everyone has seen someone with status. You know, there's famous actors with beautiful wives or someone who's really rich. You know, every girl wants to go on the yacht party, and then. And you see the guy that owns the yacht, he's not so handsome. So I would say that between these three things, your looks, how wealthy you are, what your status is whether you're well known within the balance of those three traits, you'll get to a certain point where you're acceptable to.

[Mark Manson]

Would you add personality and values to that list to your sexual marketplace value? Right. Because people generally want to date people who share values, who they have good chemistry with that they enjoy talking to.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Right?

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Yeah.

[Will]

No, I think that having shared values is important for a really long term relationship, but I think that the reality. How old are you, by the way?

[Mark Manson]

42.

[Will]

42. Honestly, I wish that I was born when you were born because like, I think when we're talking about long term relationships nowadays where the women that people in my age group are dating, they've, they've been on dating apps, they've been on Instagram like their whole life.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Right.

[Will]

So they've been inundated with interest from men, like truly inundated. Like every single day, hundreds of men are requesting to have a date with them or literally just like jump into bed with them right away. And I think that that's created this really warped sense of reality for a lot of women. And I think it's starting to, I mean, I think it's just starting to affect men really deeply.

[Mark Manson]

I think, I think we agree on some of this, but not others. Looks absolutely matter. Like, anybody who tells you otherwise is crazy. He's probably selling you something. So it looks absolutely matter. They matter most in the early phases. Right. They get you the attention. They get you that first date. They get you probably a little bit more leeway on that. Like if you say something stupid or, you know, you, you mess up or whatever, like you're probably going to get more slack.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

If you're a really good looking guy than if you're not. And you might even be right. I will concede that in this day and age, right, where everything's driven through apps and Instagram and everything, like appearance is probably,

[Will]

it's amplified.

[Mark Manson]

Yes. It's at the most premium that it's ever been.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

That said, I think once you get past that first date or that first impression, and especially once you get in the real world when you actually get it to like meeting women face to face at a party, at a friend's house, whatever, the value of looks proportionally to personality comes down. And I think once you get in, say a month into the relationship, it's almost not a factor anymore. It's almost all personal.

[Will]

I just couldn't, I couldn't disagree more because I think a lot of the relationships I've seen of my peers that have made it. It's usually been, you know, they've been together for 10 plus years and both of them have, they've kind of let go of all of the facade and the, and the like, the vain things you're describing. Maybe they don't go to the gym every day like they used to or they stop caring that much about eating healthy. And I think the ones that have made it, I'm saying the man and the woman have kind of both let go of these things progressively and they've kind of, they've descended is what, what they, what they say.

[Unidentified Skeptic]

Okay.

[Will]

And so they're, they're thinking stomach lying.

[Mark Manson]

Descended is what.

[Will]

Yeah. And I think maybe part of that is because they've both internally really committed. Like, this is the relationship I'm going to be in the rest of my life. Why would I do all this bs?

[John Regolato]

Yeah.

[Will]

But I think that a lot of times it's not so simple like that you might only be four or five years into a relationship and you're like, ah, I, this feels really good, but sometimes I'm not sure. And I think that if both partners, at the end of the day they feel like, you know, this person I'm dating isn't just valuable to me, they could be valuable to other people as well. It discourages people from just kind of throwing things away or deciding that their life is better off in a different direction or whatever it might be.

[Mark Manson]

If I can just tell you my experience. I've been with my wife for 14 years. My girlfriend before that I was with for about three and a half years. Something funny happens when you're in a loving relationship that is very happy. You stop seeing each other objectively. It's actually really weird because this person matters so much to you. Even if they're gaining weight, even if they've let themselves slip a little bit, even if they, I don't know, are dealing with some sort of like, sickness or condition or whatever. Like, you don't see it. It's like your perception warps around them and the same happens to you. Looks really only come back into play if you're unhappy. Right? Because then that's when you start asking yourself, why am I still here? Why am I putting up with this? Oh yeah, she's not as hot as she used to be. I just realized that, you know, like, it's.

[Will]

A lot of married guys also talk about how the attractiveness can ebb and flow and it can come back in funny ways after, you know, a long time. Like you've been with your wife, dude.

[Mark Manson]

So much of attraction, physical attraction, like percept like our perception of what is attractive is driven by our emotions, you know.

[Will]

But if I can interrupt you, like frankly, I mean you're like a media personality. Like you're kind of look smacks right now for your age group. Like.

[Mark Manson]

Thank you.

[Will]

Frankly, I mean you don't seem like you have, I mean you're like in good shape.

[Mark Manson]

Thanks man.

[Will]

So then you would say that once you're to a certain level of intimacy and connection that everything physical kind of just goes out the door.

[Mark Manson]

I wouldn't say everything.

[Mauro]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

But I would say it becomes deprioritized a lot.

[Will]

I think we're getting a little, I think my bigger message just for like young men that are in the early stages because I mean look, everyone would love to have a happy marriage and be on year 14, but, but I think that like most of these guys who are kind of in the red pill community, they want to talk about game and all this stuff. Like you need to be you know, rude to a woman to get her to like you.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. Like again it's not that looks don't matter, it's just that I think what I see. Right. And I, I'm not really in this industry anymore. Like I used to, all my work was around like helping guys meet girls and get laid and find a girlfriend and all that.

[Will]

You got guys laid? Yeah, like, like a lot of them.

[Unidentified Father]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. I used to take guys out to

[Will]

bars and like you would wingman them?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, it's like a professional way.

[Will]

Isn't it so weird how just having another dude with you, like I think it increases your chance by like a thousand percent.

[Mark Manson]

It's ridiculous, it's social proof. But it's what I see with, with your generation because so much of this is moved online, it's moved into the digital sphere. So much of how people talk about and understand dating has become digitized. It's just photos and numbers on a screen. And so I, I, what I see is guys over indexing on stuff like this. Right. It's like the like the looks maxing thing, I totally get it man. Like you should be as good looking as you can possibly be. Like that is just logical.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

It's going to help in every area of life, not just with women.

[Will]

How could it be controversial?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, it's just, it's self improvement. But like what I worry about is like just only focusing on that to the, to the disregard of everything else. Because ultimately like in over the long term yeah. What matters is how are you showing up? How do you feel about yourself? Do you communicate well? Are you respectful? Can you, like, call somebody out on their bullshit?

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

Right?

[Mark Manson]

Like, it's.

[Will]

That's the stuff that matters.

[John Regolato]

I'm sorry, I gotta stop you there. We're out of time.

[Mauro]

Oh, man.

[Will]

10 minutes.

[Mark Manson]

He's getting good again.

[John Regolato]

Thank you, Will. Thank you, Mark. Let's give Mark a round of applause.

[Mark Manson]

Thank you, guys.

[John Regolato]

If you think that will mogged everybody in this room, let us know in the comments. Tune in Wednesday for a follow up to this episode. And thank you so much for watching. We'll see you next time.

[Mark Manson]

I thought the Manosphere guys were really interesting today. There was more of a diversity of perspectives than I was expecting. I was also surprised how many things I ended up agreeing with some of them on.

[Unidentified Manosphere Supporter]

You can be a victim without having a victim mentality. And I think the manosphere is really important at preaching both of those ideas simultaneously. That feminism is a problem and that it is causing substantial damage to young men. But also that as a man, you gotta be tough. You got to be strong. You got to go to the gym and talk to that girl anyway and go make money anyway.

[Will]

I honestly think that this was such a cringe fest, frankly, I'm silently freaking out. I really don't want to be associated with any of the. Most of the things that were said. It's. It's so hard because a lot of these guys, I want to be pro, I want to support them, but they're just so radioactive.

[Unidentified Manosphere Advocate]

I think the manosphere sometimes gets a lot of bad flack, but I think the overall message most of the time is trying to actually help and build up the structure of a man. Men, and especially young kids, need coaches. They need leaders.

[Mark Manson]

I see why the Manosphere exists because there's just a vacuum of leadership and role models for young men today. I understand where these guys come from and I understand why, why they feel the way they do, but I just think the manosphere is not the best answer to these problems.

[John Regolato]

Don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever

[Mark Manson]

you get your podcast so that you

[John Regolato]

don't miss an episode. And if you want to watch the video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.