1 Black Conservative vs 20 Black Liberals (ft. Officer Tatum)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Surrounded — Episode 1: Black Conservative vs 20 Black Liberals (ft. Officer Tatum)

Date: August 2, 2026
Host: Paris Rose (Jubilee Media)
Featured Guest: Brandon Tatum (Former Police Officer, Conservative Commentator)

---

Episode Overview

The inaugural episode of Surrounded puts Brandon Tatum, a well-known Black conservative and ex-police officer, at the heart of a bold debate: he faces an audience of 20+ Black liberals, including academics, teachers, activists, and community advocates. The discussion confronts some of the most intensely contested issues in Black American politics: whether Republicans or Democrats are better for the Black community, the legacy and current reality of systemic racism, police, personal responsibility, and the driving causes of harm in Black communities.

Through debates and sometimes heated exchanges, Tatum defends his views against rapid-fire rebuttals and counter-examples from a rotating cast of challengers. The moderator, Paris Rose, steers the conversations and resets the hot seat as debaters are voted in and out.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Are Trump and Republicans Better for the Black Community?

• Tatum’s Position: Republican policies on immigration, taxes, religious freedom, urban revitalization, and permanent HBCU funding are more beneficial for Black Americans than Democratic ones. Cites the Trump administration’s First Step Act as a reversal of over-policing impacts.
  • "Every single policy that I can think about that Republicans have implemented that they stand for, the values they stand for, are all better off for black people than Democrats could ever dream of." — Brandon Tatum [01:38]
• Challenges:
  • Critics cite lack of measurable impact from these policies, Trump’s public association with racist incidents, and his Justice Department rolling back disparate impact analysis (used to identify unintentional racial disparities).
    • "Trump this year intentionally got rid of the disparate impact analysis... so we don't know if the policies that we're enacting are disproportionately hurting the black community." — Historian/Academic [04:16]
  • Debate over whether Trump is racist, using his historical Fair Housing Act lawsuits and debate over numerous controversial social media posts.
    • "Have you ever met Donald Trump personally?" — Tatum [05:49]
    • "He settled, so they didn't have a determination in court. He got out of it by settling, which is what you do when you are guilty, but you don't want to go to court." — Historian/Academic [06:41]

2. The Legacy and Evolution of the Republican Party

• Historical Context: Discussions on Republican support for Black rights in the 19th century vs. their transformation after the "radical Republicans" era, into a party allegedly less invested in civil rights.
  • "The Republican Party has a proven track record of giving platforms to sellouts who promote a message that harms black people..." — History Teacher [09:51]
• Points of Contention: Radical Republicans pushed for Black rights; their decline led to the GOP’s shift toward oligarchy and away from Black advancement (e.g., support for Jim Crow, Gilded Age).
• Booker T. Washington Debate: Whether personal responsibility (championed by Washington) was empowering—or exploited to perpetuate Black disenfranchisement.

3. Black Voting Rights & Modern Policy

• Gerrymandering and Voting Restrictions: Republican-led court cases and policy moves (e.g., Louisiana v. Calais, Shelby v. Holder, removal of DEI initiatives) seen as diminishing Black political power.
  • "[Voting rights act districts] to have accurate representation. The Supreme Court ruled ... you guys don’t need this representation." — Voting Rights Advocate [20:06]
• Tatum’s Response: Advocates for voter ID, argues that Black people voting overwhelmingly Democrat is counterproductive; sees voting as a right but critical of “Democratic dependency.”

4. Policing and Crime in Black Communities

• Tatum’s Claim: Police officers bring more good than harm—by removing “predators and drug dealers,” they support public safety.
  • "When you look at the functionality of law enforcement... removing the predators, the drug dealers and all of that... is a good thing." — Tatum [27:15]
• Rebuttals:
  • Critics highlight systemic bias in stops (“Veil of Darkness” study), higher policing in Black neighborhoods, and unequal sentencing.
    • "95 million traffic stops... they pull black people over during the day at a disproportional rate than white people. At nighttime, when you can't see someone's race, the average drops and it equals out." — Policy Analyst [29:30]
  • “Black on Black crime” as a concept challenged; all communities experience intra-group crime, but only Black crime is racialized or used for policy arguments.

5. Root Causes of Black Community Harm

• Tatum’s Perspective: The greatest threats to Black people are internal, not external—high crime rates, family instability, and personal decisions. (Cites CDC statistics on homicide among young Black men.)
  • "If you're 25 and under, the leading cause of death for you is being murdered by another black person." — Tatum [52:02]
• Counterpoints:
  • Others stress systemic factors (poverty, historical wealth extraction, redlining, education, war on drugs) as the foundation for today’s disparities.
    • "Under a capitalist system, poverty compounds over time... black people have been pushed away from wealth-creating mechanisms for generations." — Educator/Social Worker [55:19]
    • "Slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, underfunded HBCUs—all enduring mechanisms of wealth theft and exclusion." [Throughout]
  • Medical racism, financial disparities, predatory loans, and school funding disparities persist as modern manifestations of systemic bias.

6. Systemic Racism vs. Personal Responsibility

• Tatum’s Position: Systemic racism exists, but it is no longer the primary barrier to Black success. Overemphasis on it “excuses” poor personal choices and underplays agency.
  • "These disparities that exist, I don’t believe that they’re rooted in systemic racism. And I don’t think that we can’t overcome them." — Tatum [91:27]
• Challengers:
  • Citing unequal outcomes isn’t about excusing behavior, but explaining it in context of compounded disadvantage; disparate outcomes in health, criminal justice, wealth, etc., are linked to enduring systems.
    • "It’s not an excuse as much as it’s an explanation... there are people who transcend, but the playing field is not level." — Educator/Social Worker [94:26]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump and Racism

  • "To say that Donald Trump is racist is the craziest thing I've heard." — Brandon Tatum [05:44]
  • "He literally marked black applicants." — Historian or Academic [07:51]

• On Crime and Policing

  • "Black people commit over half of all murders in this country. Is that true or not?" — Tatum [36:18]
  • "Name me the last black mass murderer in America that shot up schools." — Critic of Policing [35:52]

• On Historical Roots

  • "Majority of the slaves were in South America. You do agree to that? About 400,000 black people over time." — Tatum [56:54]
  • "A community of successful Black people who were succeeding under capitalism were directly targeted..." — Historian or Academic on Black Wall Street [73:45]

• On Personal vs. Systemic Responsibility

  • "I think what we’re talking about here is more about poverty than race." — Tatum [93:23]
  • "It’s an explanation, not an excuse." — Educator or Social Worker [94:26]

• Audience Testimonials on Racism

  • Multiple participants share stories: being denied pain medications, losing scholarships after DEI rollbacks, or being interrogated by police solely due to skin color (see [111:00]–[115:00])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------|:-----------:| | Trump vs. Democrats for Black America | 01:11–09:40 | | History & Black Political Alignment | 09:40–17:36 | | Voting Rights and Representation | 17:36–23:33 | | Immigration and Border Policy | 23:33–26:57 | | Police in Black Communities | 26:57–38:37 | | Broken Windows, Drug Laws & Sentencing | 38:37–42:38 | | Root Causes: Poverty, Music, Personal “Agency” | 42:38–51:01 | | Black on Black Crime, Redlining, Wealth Gaps | 51:01–67:04 | | Race & Policy: Historical Context | 67:04–78:31 | | Systemic Racism & Responsibility | 78:34–103:32| | Final group round: Audience Experiences | 110:43–116:41| | Closing Thoughts, Reflections, End | 117:55–119:24|

---

Tone & Format

The episode maintains a fiery but often respectful tone. While Tatum is unwavering, often accused of “talking over” or bulldozing debaters, he equally challenges his critics on their facts and logic. The audience and challengers are passionate, persistent, and cite history and statistics to ground their points. Several moments descend into heated back-and-forth or mutual frustration, but many segments evidence real attempts to define common ground or clarify intent.

---

Conclusion & Takeaways

Surrounded’s first episode is a spirited, energetic, and at times combative tour through the most persistent racial debates in America. Brandon Tatum holds the line for conservative, personal-responsibility-first views—even when pressed on the historical and lived experiences of systemic racism by a well-prepared group of critics.

The episode rarely resolves core disagreements, but it does provide a unique airing of perspectives, with both sides forced to sharpen their arguments outside any echo chamber.

Closing Quote:
"I’m just hoping [the audience] take away a different perspective from the one they already have... even those who agree with me, hopefully they listen to others and gain some knowledge ... and people who disagree ... just be open minded to consider it, that we can be spirited, but we can actually sit down and talk to each other." — Brandon Tatum [119:24]

---

For listeners seeking a raw, unvarnished, and fervently argued survey of contemporary Black political thought and intra-community critique, this episode is a must.

Transcript

[Brandon Tatum]

I feel like you want to be confrontational more than you want to get to the bottom of a conversation. If you're 25 and under, the leading cause of death for you is being murdered by another black person.

[Critic of Policing]

Thank you. Foolish.

[History Teacher]

That is the whole thing.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, it's not.

[History Teacher]

Up from slavery.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, it's not.

[History Teacher]

Did you read the book?

[Brandon Tatum]

I did not read the book.

[History Teacher]

There you go, then. You don't know what you're talking about. You are uneducated.

[Brandon Tatum]

To say that Donald Trump is racist is the craziest thing I've heard.

[Historian or Academic]

Donald Trump?

[Brandon Tatum]

Have you ever. Have you ever met Donald Trump?

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Is systemic racism holding the black community back, or has it become an excuse to avoid personal responsibility? Now, John was a little too white to handle this topic, so you got me. I'm Paris Rose from Jubilee Media, and this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. Today we're diving into policing in black communities, whether Republicans are better for the black community than Democrats, and the debate over systemic racism. I'm here with our featured guest, former police officer and conservative commentator Brandon Tatum. I'm so happy to see you today. How you feeling?

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm good. I'm blessed. I'm happy.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

All right, you ready to take everyone on?

[Brandon Tatum]

Oh, we about to get busy in here.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Oh, I love to hear you guys. Are you guys ready? Yeah, they sound ready. All right, let's go.

[Brandon Tatum]

Hi, I'm Officer Tatum and I'm the host of the Officer Tatum show. And I'm surrounded by black liberals. My first surrounded claim is Trump and Republicans are better for the black community than Democrats.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

If you'd like to be the first debater, get to that chair in 3, 2, 1.

[Historian or Academic]

Naima, nice to meet you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Naima, nice to meet you as well.

[Historian or Academic]

Before I do my rebuttal, I would just like to know why you think that.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, there's a myriad of reasons. I think that conservative policies are more beneficial to the black community. It's more beneficial to America, which black people are part of America. And I think that policies like limiting immigration or illegal immigration, getting illegal immigrants out of this country, lowering taxes, all benefit black people as a whole. Religious freedom, you name it. Every single policy that I can think about that Republicans have implemented that they stand for, the values they stand for, are all better off for black people than Democrats could ever dream of.

[Historian or Academic]

How have you. Okay, first of all, religious freedom is not just a Republican policy. I just want Republicans are far more

[Brandon Tatum]

freedom believe in a freedom of religion than Democrats could ever dream of. Democrats.

[Historian or Academic]

I Don't want to harp on that. That's in the Constitution.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's just religion from every single aspect of life.

[Historian or Academic]

But I just want to focus on what we're. Which One of Trump's policies specifically has been designed to help the black community?

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, First Step act has been designed to reverse the effects of over policing from the past.

[Historian or Academic]

No one has done that.

[Brandon Tatum]

The First Step act, yes, it was okay, to allow for people who were incarcerated with sentencing for drug dealing and less violent crimes for them to have some relief. My uncle got out on the First Step Act.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Okay.

[Brandon Tatum]

Urban revitalization, injecting money into these inner city communities. Permanent funding for HBCUs, which Barack Obama never did, Donald Trump implemented. I mean, I can go down a list. And I think that lowering taxes and all the other benefits that Americans get is also beneficial to black people.

[Historian or Academic]

So it's funny because I've watched some of your videos, I've heard these talking points before, and I actually looked into all of these and there's not a ton of quantitative impact on how those have actually affected just the black community. But let's talk about the Republican Party and Trump and his policies as a whole. Do you think that Trump reposting a video in which one of his supporters screams white power was beneficial to the black community?

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm not familiar with some video that he posted.

[Historian or Academic]

Well, I mean, you should be.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let's talk about Democrat policy.

[Historian or Academic]

You should be there.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let's talk about Democrat policy now.

[Historian or Academic]

You're obfuscating. You are the one who has the burden. Sorry, I do not want to be interrupted.

[Brandon Tatum]

It says right here, I do not

[History Teacher]

want to be interrupted.

[Brandon Tatum]

That Trump and Republicans are better than the Democrat policy.

[Historian or Academic]

So the burden of proof is on

[Brandon Tatum]

you in a trial.

[Historian or Academic]

No, this is how a debate works. You've made a claim that you have to substantiate and you have yet to do that.

[Brandon Tatum]

I am wrong. So how are you correct in that Democrat policies are better than Republican policies?

[Historian or Academic]

Well, actually, do you want to know? My personal belief is that the Democrats are fundamentally kind of apathetic to the needs of black people, while Republicans are openly antagonizing the black community.

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me an example.

[Historian or Academic]

So, I mean, so in example, my

[Brandon Tatum]

policy position is negative towards black people that Republicans implement.

[Historian or Academic]

Trump this year intentionally got rid of the disparate impact analysis. So what the disparate impact analysis does is that it analyzes laws that were made neutrally, policies that were intended to be neutral, to make sure that there were not any racial disparities as an effect of that policy. Right. Accidentally. So Trump has removed the protection for the disparate impact analysis. So we don't know if the policies that we're enacting are disproportionately hurting the black community or not.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's not. That's not. That doesn't make any sense. Any policy.

[Historian or Academic]

It doesn't make any sense. I agree with that idea.

[Brandon Tatum]

Does not make any sense. Because the policies that are implemented.

[Historian or Academic]

Yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

The majority of the ones that in Congress are agreed upon by the House and the Senate.

[Critic of Policing]

Right.

[Brandon Tatum]

Democrats and Republicans.

[Historian or Academic]

Yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

And so, with that being said, there's black people represented. There's all kinds of people represented in creating our laws and policies. So what are you saying? That they're not considering whether or not it has a desperate effect on the black community?

[Historian or Academic]

When you create a policy, obviously you are creating it in good faith. But we do not know always how that policy is going to affect the public.

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me an example of a policy.

[Historian or Academic]

Can I finish?

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me an example of a policy.

[Historian or Academic]

But I'm trying to.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm running out of time.

[Historian or Academic]

The point of the disparate analysis report is to check to make sure that the laws that we implement in good faith don't end up hurting the black community by accident. Why would you get rid of that?

[Brandon Tatum]

Why you think he got rid of it according to.

[Historian or Academic]

Because he's racist.

[Brandon Tatum]

To say that Donald Trump is racist is the craziest thing I've heard.

[Historian or Academic]

Donald Trump.

[Brandon Tatum]

Have you ever. Have you ever met Donald Trump personally?

[Historian or Academic]

No.

[Brandon Tatum]

Have you.

[Community Member or Debater]

Have.

[Brandon Tatum]

You don't know him?

[Historian or Academic]

No. So you've met Donald Trump.

[Brandon Tatum]

I've met Donald Trump several times.

[Historian or Academic]

So you're basing his. Whether or not he's racist.

[Brandon Tatum]

You don't have any evidence. You're saying because he allegedly got rid of some desperate impact analysis that somehow that has something to do with race and it only affects black.

[Historian or Academic]

But your evidence is anecdotal. Oh, Trump was nice to me one time there.

[Brandon Tatum]

He's not a racist. I have no evidence to believe that Trump is a racist.

[Historian or Academic]

Because you are.

[Brandon Tatum]

Where's the evidence that Trump is a racist?

[Historian or Academic]

Okay, I'll give you more evidence. In 1973, his company was sued for violating the Fair Housing act by openly discriminating against the findings.

[Brandon Tatum]

What was the findings of that?

[Historian or Academic]

He was actually forced to settle.

[Brandon Tatum]

Forced to settle?

[Historian or Academic]

Yeah. He was forced to settle. No, he had to.

[Brandon Tatum]

There was no finding of fault.

[Historian or Academic]

Why would someone settle?

[Brandon Tatum]

Was it finding. You can make a.

[Historian or Academic]

Why would someone settle if he wasn't here?

[Brandon Tatum]

Was there a Determination in court that he was at fault. No, no, no. Was there a determination in court that he was at fault?

[Historian or Academic]

He settled. So they didn't have a determination in court. He got out of it by settling, which is what you do when you are guilty, but you don't want to go to court.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's not the way our setting is. That's not the way the system works.

[Historian or Academic]

Settling is. Yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, it's not.

[Historian or Academic]

Yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

He had a dissent decree which they agreed that he would implement certain things in his organization. There was no fault. Granted. They did not prove what were the

[Historian or Academic]

things that he had to implement in his company.

[Brandon Tatum]

Recruiting. It was a form of. It was that they.

[Historian or Academic]

I think you're thinking about a different lawsuit against the Trump administration.

[Brandon Tatum]

He had to make sure that they have job applications available to minorities.

[Historian or Academic]

No, this wasn't about jobs. This was about the Trump Corporation, the real estate. Yes. They violated the Fair Housing act.

[Brandon Tatum]

Because maybe we talking about something different.

[Historian or Academic]

Well, there were two times he was sued for racism.

[Brandon Tatum]

I only know of one time.

[Historian or Academic]

Yeah, we had a decision. We should learn about the other one. Because I'm bad, too.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Yeah.

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

[Healthcare Advocate]

I don't think you know what.

[Brandon Tatum]

The dissent decree, which was established, there was no findings of Donald Trump being a racist and his organization has been without fault.

[Historian or Academic]

No, that was.

[Brandon Tatum]

You cannot find a court document that says that Donald Trump officially discriminated against anybody.

[Historian or Academic]

He literally marked.

[Brandon Tatum]

What's your next one?

[Historian or Academic]

He literally marked black applicants.

[Brandon Tatum]

What's your next one? What's your next example of Trump being

[Historian or Academic]

a racist when he reposted the Obamas as monkeys?

[Brandon Tatum]

Now, he did not. He already said. He already said that. He did not post that. It was somebody on his staff. And the post wasn't even about that. That was a real.

[Historian or Academic]

It was on his.

[Brandon Tatum]

That was a real. And then when it came out, he denounced it. He said it was wrong.

[Historian or Academic]

It was on his account already.

[Brandon Tatum]

One of the staffers posted it.

[Historian or Academic]

Why would one of his staffers even have that? Even if it wasn't, you were making

[Brandon Tatum]

the post sound like the post was about that. It was a meme created by somebody else.

[Historian or Academic]

Are you really defending depicting black people as monkeys? Like, that's crazy.

[Brandon Tatum]

And Hillary Clinton.

[Historian or Academic]

Crazy.

[Brandon Tatum]

And Hillary Clinton was like. And it was all kind of people depicted as animals. It wasn't just about Barack Obama. Did Donald Trump make the video?

[Historian or Academic]

Any other president done that?

[Brandon Tatum]

Did Donald Trump make the video?

[Historian or Academic]

Has any other president done that, blaming him?

[Brandon Tatum]

Did Donald Trump make the Video.

[Historian or Academic]

I don't know if he made a video.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, he did not.

[Historian or Academic]

It's about.

[Brandon Tatum]

Did he denounce. Did he denounce what they represented?

[Historian or Academic]

If I posted something that said kill all of X people, that's what I believe.

[Brandon Tatum]

It's not true.

[Historian or Academic]

Even if I didn't type it out, that's not true. Put it in Canva and then post it.

[Brandon Tatum]

If somebody posted what I believe, if somebody posted some offensive.

[Educator or Social Worker]

On. On.

[Brandon Tatum]

On your account and you denounce it, is that a fair statement to say you don't believe in that?

[Historian or Academic]

No, I don't think that's true. I would like to be held accountable. If somebody.

[Brandon Tatum]

He said he didn't believe it.

[Historian or Academic]

If I hired someone to post on my behalf and they posted racist statements

[Brandon Tatum]

and you said that would be on my. And you took it down and you told them and you said to the world you don't believe that to be true.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

We have to pause here. All right. You have been voted out by the majority. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. If you would like to be the next debater, get to the chair in three, two, one.

[History Teacher]

So I'd like to talk about Trump and the Republicans. Not specifically on Trump, but focusing upon the history of the Republican Party, because he's just the latest iteration of that. Okay.

[Brandon Tatum]

Yeah, let's do it.

[History Teacher]

So the Republican Party has a proven track record of giving platforms to sellouts who promote a message that harms black people.

[Brandon Tatum]

Who is that? Who is the sellout that you Give me an example?

[History Teacher]

Well, there are actually quite a few. But I'll start with the.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let's start with this premise. The first black legislators.

[History Teacher]

Right.

[Brandon Tatum]

Or the first black people in Congress, House Representative, were all Republicans.

[Community Member or Debater]

Right?

[History Teacher]

So let me explain that to you.

[Brandon Tatum]

So is that a fact?

[History Teacher]

Pattern, Right. Yes. So basically what happened is the last of the radical Republicans, which was a segment of the Republican Party that passed the 14th Amendment, all of the amendments that gave black people the right to vote and ensured that slaves would not be disenfranchised. He died in August.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Black people. I mean, Republicans unanimously voted.

[History Teacher]

He died in 18 Republicans. When the 14th Amendment was passed as a whole. Right.

[Brandon Tatum]

Voted unanimous.

[History Teacher]

No, no, no.

[Brandon Tatum]

Press did not.

[History Teacher]

Right. But guess what? After the radical Republican faction left Congress.

[Brandon Tatum]

Radical Republican.

[History Teacher]

That's not.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's the.

[History Teacher]

They are. They were. They were a historic. No, no, no, that's a title. They were historic.

[Brandon Tatum]

The radical Republican faction.

[Sponsor Voice (Kickoff Credit)]

They.

[History Teacher]

They were a segment of the Republican Party. That name, that create Thaddeus Stevens, He's. He's an example. They. They are the ones who created the Freedmen's Bureau, which was designed to assimilate ex slaves into the national citizenry. After they left, the Republican Party constructed an oligarchy which we called the Gilded Age and in which we saw the fate of black people decline. Black. Black homeownership decline. Black voting.

[Brandon Tatum]

I hope they fact check you on all of that. The Republicans unanimously voted.

[History Teacher]

No, not after that.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me. The Republicans unanimously voted for the 13th,

[History Teacher]

14th, and 15th under the leadership of the Radical Republicans. And they were progressives.

[Brandon Tatum]

Unanimously voted for the civil rights.

[History Teacher]

Yes. And then after the Radical Republicans left, they stopped doing that.

[Brandon Tatum]

When did the Radical Republicans leave? You saying the radical.

[History Teacher]

1868. The last person.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's not true.

[History Teacher]

It is 100% true because the Republicans unanimously voted. Back to what I was saying. Let me get back to what I was saying. You're bulldozing and you're steamrolling because you don't want to hear what I have to say.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let's quantify the point.

[History Teacher]

Listen, brother.

[Brandon Tatum]

The Republicans.

[History Teacher]

Listen to what I have to say.

[Brandon Tatum]

Civil Rights Act.

[History Teacher]

Listen to what I have to say. That you can respond to it.

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay, I want you to answer that question.

[History Teacher]

Booker T. Washington was fated by the white racist establishment. He had tea at Windsor. Windsor Castle by Queen Victoria. He met Susan B. Anthony. He was allowed to create the Tuskegee Institute because he was promoting this myth of personal responsibility which harms black people.

[Brandon Tatum]

The most successful is documented. A black man who lifted so many black people from poverty to success was Booker T. Washington.

[History Teacher]

No, no, no, no, no, no. He did not. Jim Crow credible for black success in America. The institutionalization of Jim Crow was a direct result of his false message.

[Brandon Tatum]

What was his false message?

[History Teacher]

His message.

[Brandon Tatum]

Personal responsibility.

[History Teacher]

Black people were not fit to participate in the political process. That's not true because slavery had set them back.

[Brandon Tatum]

Where did you see all of the black congressmen?

[History Teacher]

It's in his book.

[Brandon Tatum]

He. You said he mentioned that black people were not fit to put the whole

[History Teacher]

thing up from slavery.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, it's not.

[History Teacher]

Did you read the book?

[Brandon Tatum]

I did not read the book.

[History Teacher]

There you go, then. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me tell you something, brother.

[History Teacher]

I am a history teacher.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me finish what I'm saying.

[History Teacher]

I'm teaching the public school system.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me finish what I'm saying.

[History Teacher]

You are uneducated.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me finish what I'm saying. You cannot.

[History Teacher]

You don't know what you're talking about.

[Brandon Tatum]

If you're telling me that Republicans did not unanimously vote for the 13th 14th

[History Teacher]

Amendment and the Civil Rights Act. You are being.

[Brandon Tatum]

You cannot tell me you're a teacher if you are not and you do not understand.

[History Teacher]

You are lying about.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

I can't hear anything either. You were saying?

[History Teacher]

He's not allowing me to make a single point because I'm making points because you're afraid.

[Brandon Tatum]

Of what?

[History Teacher]

Of the truth.

[Brandon Tatum]

I just explained to you.

[History Teacher]

When you. When you earn a living off of lies, you are afraid of the truth.

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me a lot that I've told.

[History Teacher]

The idea that Republican policies benefited black people and that gave you Republican.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, let me give me.

[History Teacher]

Let me give you an example.

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me examples that they've hurt black before.

[History Teacher]

I'll give you an example. During the Hoover administration, 43% of the black people who were employed were employed in domestic work. And the reason for that is because they were shut out of truly gainful employment. And the segment who was hurt the most were black men. Black women could get jobs as maids and things of that sort, but black men, any job that gave them the opportunity for social dignity, value and worth, they were systematically denied. And a lot of it had to do with Booker T. Washington's message. Now, guess what?

[Brandon Tatum]

Booker T. Washington's message has been harmful. That I have. You have not read the whole portions of his message?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

No.

[Brandon Tatum]

Read the whole book. I will read the whole book. But you cannot sit here and tell me that Booker T. Washington's message was disenfranchised.

[History Teacher]

And guess what. Guess what he acknowledges in the.

[Brandon Tatum]

In his book, sort of Tuskegee was detrimental to black.

[History Teacher]

Guess what he said.

[Sponsor Voice (Kickoff Credit)]

No.

[Audience Member or Debater]

No.

[Brandon Tatum]

Was it?

[History Teacher]

Yes, it was. And let me tell you why. He acknowledged that the people in Tuskegee, Alabama, the white community there, only allowed him to create that institute because he assured them he would not be teaching them anything that would lift them out of domestic status, anything that pertained to higher education, any knowledge of their history, or just the humanities, anything that white people took for granted in normal universities. It was designed to keep black people oppressed.

[Brandon Tatum]

That was the point. Up from slavery, Booker T. Washington had a message of black success and personal accountability and responsibility. And it's not dependent on the government to do the things that black people could already.

[History Teacher]

Yes, he did deny on the government.

[Brandon Tatum]

He did not.

[History Teacher]

Yes, he did.

[Brandon Tatum]

He did not make his mission and his plan to say that black people should depend on the government.

[History Teacher]

This is the lie. Everybody who is listening to me, the lie is that black people should focus on solely upon family and their economic status and ignore agitations for social equality. No prioritizing the family. He actually says in that personal responsibility, agitations for social equality are the extremist folly because black people are not prepared to be social equals to white people. He actually says that that has been the program of the Republican Party ever since.

[Brandon Tatum]

First of all, that's a lie.

[History Teacher]

And now guess what else?

[Educator or Social Worker]

That's a lie.

[History Teacher]

So after.

[Brandon Tatum]

Why did the Democrats. Why did the Democrats have, until Cory Booker recently had the longest filibuster against the Civil Rights Act?

[Audience Member or Debater]

Right.

[Educator or Social Worker]

I'll tell you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Longest in history.

[History Teacher]

So basically what happened is prior to that act, there were a number of Dixiecrats who were the. The inheritance Democrats, the inheritor, I'll tell you, the inheritors of slavery, shadow slavery, and then Jim Crow era racist Democrats. Guess what? After those acts, the Voting Rights act and the Civil Rights act were passed unanimously by Republicans, yet there was a 20 to 30% shift away from the Democratic Party into the Republican Party. And then surprisingly, Nixon begins his war on drugs, which is a part of his law and order program. And guess what happens? Black people become 6 to 7%, 6 to 7 times higher. To be arrested for drug abuse or versus white people. They are mass incarcerating us. And it is directly tied to Republican policy.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Okay, we have to pause here. We have to pause here. You have been voted out by the majority. Thank you so much. If you would like to be the next debater, get to that chair in three, two, one.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Ooh.

[Brandon Tatum]

Watch out now. Watch out now.

[Historian or Academic]

I pleasure to meet you. How you doing?

[Sponsor Voice (Kickoff Credit)]

I'm doing good.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

So your claim is that Trump and Republicans are better for the black community than Democrats.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Yes.

[Critic of Policing]

Okay.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

I think that claim is patently false. And let me explain why. Take the institution of voting, the most sacred thing that the Constitution protects, something that we need for elected officials to represent us. Repeatedly, Republicans have used the judiciary to discriminate against black people in voting.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

How?

[Voting Rights Advocate]

We have cases like Louisiana vs Calais, the recent case that in 2026, it's caused all the redistricting crisis that you see right now. And when you see the effects of that for the black community, the Congressional Black Caucus is set to lose 16 to 19%. Or it's not 16. 16 to 19 members, 30% of its representation. Regardless of anything that you are saying communities should be doing, you have to still elect people to represent you to make those policy decisions. Yeah, but let me finish.

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay, I'll let you finish.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

If you are erasing the ability for people to have that representation and you're making it even harder to vote. Like decisions like Shelby v. Holder, which makes it harder to eliminate discriminatory laws. Or you have cases like Brnovich vdnc, which are striking. Case which are striking. The ability to challenge laws that we think are discriminatory for mail in voting. It's not good. And it's not reasonable to say that Republicans are representing black people's interests.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me put this in simplistic terms. Voting is a sacred right.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

Right. And black people were afforded voting rights, which we all should fight for. Having voter ID is protecting that sacred right that black people will make sure that black people can actually vote without being eliminated in their voting power by illegal aliens.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

This goes beyond.

[Brandon Tatum]

But no, no, let me go point by point. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

This goes way beyond the.

[Brandon Tatum]

This goes way beyond the election.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

This goes way beyond voter id. You simply don't want. They simply don't want people who are black to be elected.

[Brandon Tatum]

How is that possible?

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Because majority minority districts were created by the Voting Rights act of 1965. That that specific piece of legislation which Republicans have repeatedly targeted through decades has said, hey, there was history done here that harmed people. And as a way to make up for it slowly over time, we need to designate specific areas, black populous areas, to have accurate representation.

[Brandon Tatum]

What if the Supreme Court ruled?

[Voting Rights Advocate]

The Supreme Court ruled that, hey, actually, no, you guys don't need this representation. This is unconstitutional race. Certainly you can.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

You cannot.

[Brandon Tatum]

You cannot redistribute.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

You cannot deny black people from having the right to vote and represent themselves.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me explain.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Because you have white people in Louisiana versus Calais. That's. That's what the case is.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Officer Tatum, speak.

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay, this is the problem here. You are assuming that black people can only vote for Democrats.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

And I didn't assume that because the. No, I didn't. Where did I say that?

[Brandon Tatum]

Because when did I say that saying. You're insinuating that.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

I'm not.

[Brandon Tatum]

Because you cannot draw lines of demarcation based on race. That is against the United States Constitution. They ruled that. Which is why they had to redraw lines. Black people have a right to vote for anybody that they want that acts in the best interest of the black community or the community at large. It doesn't have to always be Democrats.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

There's a reason why people. There's a reason why black people vote for Democrats, and there's a reason why there's only five elected Republicans. Only five elected Republicans in Congress.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's the problem in the black community today. The consistency of voting for These Democrats who ain't done nothing for black people and still haven't. We're, we're. To this day, many people that are sitting around here are still complaining about the plight against the black people, which I'll still vote for Democrats and Democrats have been elected in office for the majority of the time in the last decade.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Republicans have done way better.

[Brandon Tatum]

What have they done?

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Republicans. Republicans have done way more damaging things. Even just as of just recently with Doge, we had the highest exodus of black women in the federal workforce. I'm not sure if you're not aware of that information, but wait, wait. I'm not sure if you're aware of

[Brandon Tatum]

that information, but cutting spending and cutting

[Voting Rights Advocate]

spending for social services increasing, increasing. Increasing poverty, increasing crime, increasing death and harming people over and over again who are doing nothing to help the black community and trying to perpetuate a policy platform that insists that black people need to be put down is not cheaper forward.

[Brandon Tatum]

That is a lie.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Absolutely.

[Brandon Tatum]

You are saying that we're going to cut government spending but we should leave all the black people there because they're black.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

No, we shouldn't.

[Brandon Tatum]

Cutting government spending.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

We should increase government spending by taxing the rich, funding our communities and putting in jail instead of putting people in power.

[Brandon Tatum]

Taxing the rich is a foolish statement by you. What do you mean by taxing the rich?

[Voting Rights Advocate]

We in California have already seen that's

[Brandon Tatum]

why people leave in California. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's why business owners are leaving here in California. Companies are leaving in California.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

In California. Even in the basic past when we taxed the rich, we were able to fund the University of California systems. And what did Ronald Reagan do? Ronald Reagan said let's slash that because black people need to suffer, communities need to go down. And what do we know? Now we have budget. No, now we have budget deficits affecting our systems. We have, we have laws from the 1970s still on the tax and the rich.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Wait, wait.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

There's a lot we can talk about taxes too. Let's go.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are still selling black folks to this day. Taxing the rich is it. They're not going to change the tax code. So taxing the rich is a myth. Would you benefit more financially if you left California?

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Depends on how I use my money because I'm a smart person.

[Brandon Tatum]

It doesn't matter about being smart cuz the taxes are out of control.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

I think money and how you manage it with your, with your. As your person. When we talk about personal responsibility, well,

[Brandon Tatum]

you're still going to be less.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

You have to pause or the majority of. Thank you so much.

[Audience Member or Debater]

Thank you, brother.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Pleasure talking with you.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Ok, if you would like to be the next debater, get to that chair in three, two, one.

[Audience Member or Debater]

All right.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Nice to meet you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Nice to meet you as well.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

I wanted to ask just in terms

[Community Advocate]

of

[Fact Checker or Debater]

him refusing to sign not only the Affordable Housing act, but also refusing to sign the bipartisan 2024 bill when it comes to putting more money on our borders. Right. Because you talked about immig. Why would he refuse these acts if in reality, if we put more money there, we would have more officers and less fear and we would be able to actually have legal immigration streamlined more cleanly? Because the question is not. Don't have. I'm guessing you're not against immigration, you're against illegal immigration or.

[Brandon Tatum]

For the most part, I'm against illegal immigration. But I also believe we need to measure how much immigration we're actually allowing in this country when we, when people in America have needs that we need to address here.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

How do you measure that?

[Brandon Tatum]

We allow a million immigrants legally in the United States of America every single year. And we all in here care about the issues that go on in the black community. I would argue that black people need the financial support that we're giving these, these, these immigrants that are coming over here. I think it's not right.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Illegal immigrants actually don't get federal support.

[Brandon Tatum]

They do get federal support.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Immigrants fact check that. Illegal immigrants do not have federal support. They. But actually what I will say is that immigrants overall pay taxes.

[Brandon Tatum]

Immigrants, immigrants.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Illegal immigrants do not get federal get

[Brandon Tatum]

access to social programs. They get access to Medicare. They get access to all, all immigrants. But illegal immigrants do as well.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

I'm talking about specifically the border bill. Why did he reject that?

[Brandon Tatum]

Because, because bills are not isolated. It's got a bunch of minutiae, a bunch of spending that he doesn't agree with and the Republicans don't agree with. But did he not agree with all of those bills?

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Well, actually, a lot of Republicans.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

It was a bipartisan bill.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well then why. You tell me why he didn't sign it.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

No, I'm asking you.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, you tell me why he didn't sign it then.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

I'm asking you.

[Brandon Tatum]

You're saying that he's doing it because he's racist.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

I'm not saying. I didn't say that. Why are you putting one. I genuinely, I'm trying to ask you why didn't he.

[Brandon Tatum]

The bill is not just singularly about

[Fact Checker or Debater]

border patrol, but okay, we're talking about health care by 2034, 10 million Americans are gonna lose their.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

I'm so sorry. Thank you both so much. Love the passion though.

[Sponsor Voice (Kickoff Credit)]

Time moves fast, but your credit score doesn't have to stay stuck. I remember how overwhelmed I felt trying to fix my credit. It felt like a catch 22 where you need credit to build credit. Then I found Kickoff. Signing up took minutes on my phone with no credit check and no hidden fees for users with credit under 600, they see an average growth of 86 points. Points. Kickoff helps you score big when it comes to credit plans. Start at just $5 a month with zero interest. Start building credit with Kickoff today and get your first month for as little as $1. That's 80% off the normal price. When you go to getkickoff.com surrounded today, that's kickoff without the C Get K I k o f f.com surrounded must

[Audience Member or Debater]

sign [e-mail] surrounded to activate. Offer applies to new kickoff customers first month only. Subject to approval. Offer subject to change. I reverse your credit score impact of plus 86 points between August24 August 24 for Koff Credit Count users who started the score below 600, who paid on time, and who had no delinquencies or collections added to their credit profile during the period. Late payments may negatively impact the credit score. Individual results may vary.

[Sponsor Voice (Kickoff Credit)]

Thank you to Kickoff for sponsoring this episode. Now let's get back to the show.

[Brandon Tatum]

My next surrounding claim is that police officers do more good in a black community than harm.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

All right, if you would like to be the next debater, get to the chair in 3, 2, 1.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I want to hear why you think that police do more good in the black communities than harm.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, when you look at the functionality of law enforcement, meaning that the people who perpetuate crime in the black community are arrested by law enforcement officers. Removing them from the community, removing the predators, the drug dealers and all of that from the community, which is a good thing. And I cannot name other things that are harmful that outweigh all of the good that the police officers do.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

How did the police first come about?

[Brandon Tatum]

Be more detailed. That's not true. Yeah, that's two different functionalities.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

The origin you're talking about slave patrols.

[Brandon Tatum]

Modern day policing is completely different.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

The origins of police.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's not true.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

In the United States of America. Buy from the slave patrol. They still use the same badges.

[Brandon Tatum]

It's not true.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

The same. The stars on the.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's not true. The functionality of slave patrols and the jurisdiction that slave patrols have versus the functionality and jurisdiction of law enforcement from the entire premise.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

That's fine, that's fine. Listen. Okay, cool. So you don't think there's an issue with policing in the black community?

[Educator or Social Worker]

No.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

You don't think there's an issue with stop and frisk?

[Brandon Tatum]

No.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

You don't think that there's an issue with like flat cameras and geo tracking?

[Brandon Tatum]

No.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Got it.

[Audience Member or Debater]

Okay.

[Brandon Tatum]

I think that helps eliminate crime.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Sure. Have you ever heard of the Veil of Darkness study?

[Brandon Tatum]

No, I have not.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Okay. The Veil of darkness study was a study that was completed where 95 million traffic stops were actually checked across the United States of America. Vast pool. Right. The methodology accounted for the time of day for traffic location, different shifts. Would you like to know what they found in that study when it came to policing in black people?

[Brandon Tatum]

That black people commit more traffic violations than other people?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

No, that it's true. That black people were stopped for more traffic violence. Hold on, I got you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Because they commit more traffic violet violations.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

You don't know the study. How are you gonna answer?

[Brandon Tatum]

I know what other studies and statistical data points show.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Okay, then give me another study.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

That's why.

[Educator or Social Worker]

That's why.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Sure. Let me finish.

[Brandon Tatum]

Over. Just because they see a black person

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

driving, literally, the Bell of darkness study. Bell of darkness study that was done by Stanford and backed up by. By the cdc actually showed that what happens is during the day, police officers use racial bias because they can see people and they pull people made a

[Brandon Tatum]

traffic stop in your life.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I'm literally going to finish.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm going. Let you finish.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

They pull black people over during the day at a disproportional rate than white people. But at nighttime, when you can't see and it's harder to tell someone's actual race than the average drops and it equals out. Okay, let me tell you why we found that in the study. 95 million traffic violations, that when you can't see someone's race, you focus on the traffic violation versus.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me tell you why.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

You focus on.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me tell you why. Your study is flawed for one reason. I was a police officer many years. I do traffic stops during the day. And you cannot always tell the race of a person during a date, no matter what. Secondary.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I agree.

[Brandon Tatum]

They're secondary. When you are patrolling, majority of the black people that you engage with live in what, black communities?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Over police.

[Brandon Tatum]

So you're going to make excuse. We can get to that.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I'm not making excuse.

[Brandon Tatum]

You're making excuses. When you're in a black community, you only have options to pull over black people.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Study.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me finish. I believe that there's clearly a flaw in what you're saying this study represents.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Sure.

[Brandon Tatum]

Because in the black community you haven't looked at. In the black community, I have plenty of other.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

You got trust me, bros touch.

[Brandon Tatum]

I did it for a living.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Brandon Tatum]

And you did not.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

So like I've looked at the information.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm telling you why the study I'm telling you why the study is a

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

one off experience indicative of all police.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm telling you why your study is off. When you're looking at patrolling in black neighborhoods, you cannot. How are you going to make a fair comparison to how many white people pulled over versus black people when there's only black people present in the black neighborhood? The veil of darkness do not, cannot see, not get in the minds of a police officer and determine whether or not the police officer pulled a person over because their color or the violation.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

It literally, if you look at this

[Brandon Tatum]

prove that a cop was looking at

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

a black man of darkness study, it shows not only the reason why they were pulled over, but it shows the ones that were thrown out. How do you know they were disproportionately pulled over?

[Brandon Tatum]

Disproportionality. Disproportionately.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

There was a disproportion of black violations that were thrown out.

[Brandon Tatum]

It doesn't matter why. Disproportionality.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Why is so many black people pulled over and so many of the violations were thrown out?

[Brandon Tatum]

You gotta look at it like this. If you look. If you're looking at traffic stops across the country, different jurisdictions have different mandates and they have different standards for what they throw out as traffic violations. So you cannot make a generalization across the entire country.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Yes, you can. You know what's across the entire country? White supremacy. White supremacy.

[Brandon Tatum]

Why does white supremacy have anything to do with a traffic stop?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

White supremacist. It's literally racism. You are projecting. They're literally trained.

[Brandon Tatum]

You're projecting your bias.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Both.

[Brandon Tatum]

Tell me how to train. Have you been through police training?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

No, I have not.

[Brandon Tatum]

I went through police.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Sure. Cool story.

[Brandon Tatum]

And they do not teach discrimination.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Why is it that in police. Why is it that police officers spend more time in black neighborhoods?

[Brandon Tatum]

They're committing more crimes.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

They're not.

[Brandon Tatum]

Yes, they are.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Who commits the most violent crimes in America today?

[Brandon Tatum]

Per capita? Black.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Not per capita. Period.

[Brandon Tatum]

Black people do.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

No. White people.

[Brandon Tatum]

White men specifically.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

FBI data. Fact check it. FBI data show. FBI data shows that white men, white men specifically commit the most violent crime in the United States of America, if

[Brandon Tatum]

you're talking about property crimes, yes, I'm talking about violent crimes.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Violent crimes. It's white men, including csam. White men. If you could talk per capita with csam.

[Brandon Tatum]

Come on, come on. They gonna flex.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

You can talk numbers. White men disproportionately represent csam.

[Brandon Tatum]

And violent crime, murder rate and violent crimes disproportionately represent.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

You believe in 1350?

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

All right, we're gonna have to pause here. So I'm glad you guys took a pause. You have been voted out. Thank you so much.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Give me 10 minutes.

[Historian or Academic]

I'm telling you,

[Brandon Tatum]

she making up stats.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

If you would like to be the next debater, get to that chair in three, two, one.

[Critic of Policing]

All right. Everything I heard, everything I've listened to thus far, I think you full of shit. You're a police officer.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, give me an example of what I said that wasn't true.

[Critic of Policing]

Let me get to it it.

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me something I said anybody here

[Critic of Policing]

would disagree that good policing is bad. We're talking about bad policing. We're talking about policing. We're talking about the kind of policing that puts gentlemen like you and me in prison for unjust crimes. You like to cite that you're a police officer.

[Brandon Tatum]

Cite my professional brown. I have been in that profession 10

[Critic of Policing]

years writing policy in government.

[Brandon Tatum]

You weren't a police officer and. But you weren't at California levels. And you never arrested anybody.

[Critic of Policing]

You didn't write policy. I did.

[Brandon Tatum]

I enforced the law.

[Critic of Policing]

So, okay, I wrote, I write the law.

[Brandon Tatum]

You don't enforce the law.

[Critic of Policing]

You don't enforce the law. You don't enforce the law appropriately.

[Brandon Tatum]

You just made.

[Critic of Policing]

You'd like to use one offs. Let me use a one off.

[Brandon Tatum]

Y' all don't need to use one off.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

You just make.

[Critic of Policing]

In the city of San Diego, there's a black police officer that sued the San Diego Diego Police Department anecdotal with regard to. I mean, bro, all day you've been coming up with me, me, me, me.

[Brandon Tatum]

Now I got statistical data points. Where do you want to go?

[Critic of Policing]

Like, I need you to keep that safe.

[Brandon Tatum]

Black people commit. I need you to over half our violent crimes.

[Critic of Policing]

And that's the problem with black conservatives like yourself.

[Brandon Tatum]

You don't know how to keep talking emotionally.

[Community Member or Debater]

It was me.

[Critic of Policing]

Well, I'm trying to get you facts.

[Brandon Tatum]

Come on with it.

[Critic of Policing]

You supposed to be a police officer. Hold your head, bro.

[History Teacher]

Hold your head.

[Critic of Policing]

You interrupted everybody, bro.

[Brandon Tatum]

I got you here to debate me. I'm not here to listen to you in circles.

[Critic of Policing]

But you talking like you was A state trooper. You was a secret service.

[Brandon Tatum]

I know cops all across the country.

[Critic of Policing]

But I did.

[Brandon Tatum]

I know policy. I know.

[Critic of Policing]

I do, too.

[Brandon Tatum]

All right, get to your point.

[Critic of Policing]

You don't know policy because you've never written one.

[Brandon Tatum]

We're talking about policing in the black community.

[Critic of Policing]

We're not talking about policy because police officers like you don't like accountability. So I want to hold you to account.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Count.

[Critic of Policing]

I'm trying to get my story out, and if I can finish my story.

[Brandon Tatum]

It's not story time, man. Get. The point is police. The point was police do more.

[Critic of Policing]

The point was with regard to training. The San Diego Police Department showed a video training officers of that department depicting black people as primary perpetrators of crime. That's not true. My last guy. That. That was just up here. Who. Who commits the most crimes in America? It's white people. Name me the last black mass murderer in America that shot up schools.

[Brandon Tatum]

It happened in the hood every day.

[Critic of Policing]

I didn't ask about the hood.

[Brandon Tatum]

Mass murdering. Mass shooting, bro. Go to Fort Chicago.

[Community Member or Debater]

To Fort.

[Critic of Policing]

What's the definition of a mass shooting? What's the definition of a mass shooting?

[Brandon Tatum]

People shot is a mass shooting, according to the FBI. I could tell you to go to any inner city in the United States of America and go just this past weekend, and you've seen multiple mass shootings that occurred in that. In that community. I don't know them by name.

[Critic of Policing]

I can cite you, Columbine. I can cite you, Sandy Hook.

[Brandon Tatum]

You're talking about a shooting isolated at a school. We're talking about violence. We're talking about murder rates. Black people commit over half of all murders in this country. Is that true or not?

[Critic of Policing]

That's not true.

[History Teacher]

That is true.

[Critic of Policing]

What are you saying?

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

All right.

[History Teacher]

Would you have commit.

[Brandon Tatum]

Black people commit disproportionate amounts of. And over half of all violent crimes in this country.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Okay, Officer Tatum, both of you guys, we have to stop here because we have been voted out. Thank you so much for your time. If you would like to be the next debater, get to that hot seat in three, two, one.

[Community Advocate]

All right.

[Brandon Tatum]

What's up, bro?

[Educator or Social Worker]

How you doing?

[Social Justice Advocate]

Good.

[Community Advocate]

I would argue that the resources. That the cost of hiring a police officer could be significantly better used in revitalizing the black community rather than affording more cops. As you've seen in the city of New York, when they utilize. When they increased the amount of funding they're putting in schools, when they increased having childcare for people, when they increased training for people to get jobs, they saw the lowest Crime rate that they've seen in years.

[Brandon Tatum]

Right. This is where I think we can agree on. We gotta walk and chew gum at the same time. As we see resources provided and crime go down, then we can begin to shrink the availability of law enforcement in that said community. You don't do one before the other. You can't just say, I'm gonna take resources from the law enforcement officers. Crime will go out of control. If I was to concede to your point, we need to see these crime statistics begin to decrease. Therefore you can justify decreasing law enforcement. You cannot think that because you build a park that somebody ain't gonna be shooting and acting a fool in the hood. That is a generational thing that's going to have to happen. And right now we still got people out today that don't give a F about a park. We've seen plenty of cases that people have built incredible schools. They built parks, roadways, availability to activities for people. And they still out here cutting up. And a lot of it is the way people are raised, the culture that people are embracing. And I would argue that black people are embracing that wasn't even black culture to start with. Those things need to be addressed and they are the most detrimental to the black community than even funding and defunding police.

[Community Advocate]

And I hear you, but I still agree that.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

All right, we're gonna have to pause here. I'm so sorry. You have been voted out by the majority.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Thank you.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

If you would like to be the next debater, please get to the chair in 3, 2, 1.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Silver, I just wanna take a second to acknowledge that you're being roasted and you're being very polite about it. So thank you for that.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm doing well.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

I say you're getting roasted right now, but you're being very polite about it. And I appreciate that.

[Brandon Tatum]

Thank you for your conceding to my arguments.

[Educator or Social Worker]

Okay.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

I wouldn't say that, but okay. So you're familiar with broken window policing, right?

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm familiar in part, yeah.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Just for people that don't know, it's just a uniform enforcement of both significant and insignificant laws.

[Sponsor Voice (Kickoff Credit)]

Right.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

And I think we could both agree that there are laws in this country that shouldn't exist. Right. Or just.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, give me an example, because I can't see to it if I don't know what you're talking about. Marijuana.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Right. Like in the state of Texas, if you're caught with marijuana, you can be a felon. Right. I think we can both agree that that's.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

But I don't.

[Brandon Tatum]

I Don't, I don't agree to that. I mean people vote on it and they pass what the majority believe. I don't, I don't agree to that.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Sure.

[Brandon Tatum]

I think, I think in some cases marijuana should be illegal. I think medical marijuana should be legal. I mean, obviously.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Well, yeah, sure, but I based based all marijuana. But, but I think we can both agree that if you have like a felony conviction that stunts your ability to earn and provide for your family, right?

[Brandon Tatum]

Yeah. You knew that before you committed the felony, right?

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Yeah, but like I think certain laws.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, first of all, you're talking felonies, you're not talking misdemeanor felonies are very intense things that you do that cause you to get a felony. It's not just having weed on you?

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Nah, not exactly. Not exactly. Because if you're caught with a wax pen, Right. That can be considered a felony equivalent to if you had like cocaine or something like that.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, depending on what state you're in.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Yeah, depending on what state.

[Brandon Tatum]

If that's the case. But you know that before, you know that before you, you do it.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Sure.

[Brandon Tatum]

And so you make the decision. You make the decision. Everybody in here make decisions. They're not going to do that because you don't want to felony on your record because you want to be successful and be able to get a job. Is that fair?

[Criminal Justice Expert]

But let's.

[Brandon Tatum]

Personal responsibility.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

But let's interrogate the central claim. You're saying that police in black communities do more good than harm. Right. So if you're caught smoking a blunt on your porch and you become a felon for the rest of your life and then you're relegated to like being like, like doing menial labor for the rest of your life. Right. When you could have had a lot more prospect. Isn't that the police causing more harm to your life?

[Brandon Tatum]

No, no, it's just don't smoke weed and you won't have to worry about the police.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

So are the laws enforced equally across the races?

[Brandon Tatum]

It is.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

No.

[Brandon Tatum]

What's your point?

[Criminal Justice Expert]

So black people in this country, right. Are statistically found to have been given larger sentences for the same crimes compared to their white counterparts.

[Brandon Tatum]

See, let me, let me, let me give you some more information to give you a better perspective. A lot of it is because people have committed multiple crimes before they get to the final crime sentencing.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Yes, yes, it is for first time offenders.

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me an example. Where do you see? Now here's what, and everybody should acknowledge this. Where do you see in this country a judge, this judge gave A white person, a different sentence than a black person in that same courtroom.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Statistically, you can still see that minority offenders are given harsher sentences for the

[Brandon Tatum]

same crimes compared to the white person. And a lot of times it's because they already have previous charges. I'll give you an example of. Of people that's in my family. You know, two people that I know. I'm not gonna say what position they're in. My family got 20 years in prison for armed robbery. 25 years in prison for armed robbery. The reason he got 25 years is because he had already committed a robbery. He got five years before that. Another one of my cousins got 75 years in prison for shooting three people. The reason he got 75 years. And some people didn't get that because he had already been a prohibited possessor, he was already a convicted felon, and he had drugs in the car. Those contributing factors is what lead many black people who already have a criminal record to being sentenced at a higher rate. You cannot find a judge that gave a black person a higher sentencing than they gave a white person. If you find that judge, I think everybody in here will be against that judge. And I would march and protest a judge that we can find doing that. You won't find it.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

All right, we're have to pause here because you've been voted out by the majority.

[Brandon Tatum]

Thank you.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Thank you so much. If you would like to be the next debater, please get to the chair in three, two, one.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

What's up?

[Brandon Tatum]

What's up, bro?

[Community Member or Debater]

What's up, man?

[Historian or Academic]

How you doing?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Good.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Good.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Let's have some fun. I. I want to approach this from a place of curiosity, because the thing that troubles me about a lot of the way you structure your arguments, that seems to suggest to me that you perhaps believe that there's some moral deficit that black people have that inclines us to commit more crimes. And I guess my question is, what do you think that moral lack is?

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't really think it's a. I don't think it's a sweeping generalization that every black person somehow is born inherently evil or inherently a criminal. I think that there's different things that do cause people to fall down a path of committing crimes, which is what their fathers did and what their mothers

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

did, one might say. Context and systemic racism.

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't think it has. I don't. I think it had much to do with racism. No, no, I don't think it has. Like. Like, for instance, we can isolate criminal activity to happen in the black community. That has no hand or involvement from white people.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Yeah.

[Brandon Tatum]

You know, a young man deciding to grab a gun and do a shooting has nothing to do with white people. A young man having sex with five and six women, getting them pregnant and not standing up for his responsibilities has nothing to do with white people.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

See, but when you tell stories like that, it seems to suggest that you're saying that black people are responsible for all of that versus these isolated incidents, these. These mythical. Isolated into this that you're bringing up.

[Brandon Tatum]

I guess I'm saying it's personal responsibility.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

So. So there's.

[Brandon Tatum]

You're saying there's no white man there.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

There's an epidemic of personal responsibility inside the black community.

[Brandon Tatum]

I agree with you.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

How do you measure that?

[Brandon Tatum]

By looking at the. Looking at the effects of it. Looking at what black people are doing over time.

[Social Justice Advocate]

So.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

So earlier people have come up. Come up and given you a vast number of statistics that indicate systemic racism, inequality, poverty, education. It's happened over and over again. Yet you claim black people have an epidemic of personal responsibility, but you can't give a single statistic that indicates that.

[Brandon Tatum]

How do you know that there's an epidemic of personal responsibility? You see the album.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Is it the rap music?

[Brandon Tatum]

If that's one indicator, yeah. Yeah, it's rap music.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Let the bodies hit the. Who wrote that song?

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me give you an example to why this is different. Yeah, let me give you an example why this is different.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Come on, let's talk about rap.

[Brandon Tatum]

And I'm gonna tell you how it has a negative effect on black people. Yeah, white people actually listen to rap music way more than black people do. They purchase it more. But black people are living the stuff that's in the music. White people fantasize of what it may be like to run up on your opp and shoot somebody and kill them.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Shoot those bars. Come on.

[Brandon Tatum]

And selling dope in the hood to your own people. Yeah, black people are living it. It's a reality. And it's reinforced a form of brainwashing.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

I've listened to a lot of rap music. You know, I've never done shot up a school.

[Brandon Tatum]

What does a school guy do?

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Anything I think you try to create. No, this is what I mean by.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are you saying that there's no negative.

[Social Justice Advocate]

No, no.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

You're saying some kind of lack that causes there's no more pro violence, but you don't acknowledge any of the historical conversation.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are you saying that there's no negative effects of brainwashing yourself about killing your brother and sister and listening to that on a day to day basis, there's no negative effect in that.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Right. Why are you posing this as a uniquely black thing? You make the argument that, like violence, violence has been a part, a part of art all the time. I write for a living. You know who glorifies violence? William Shakespeare. You know who glorifies violence? Quentin Tarantino. Where? You don't see anyone talking about, oh my God, this is responsible for all the white and white crime. Even though there are more white criminals

[Brandon Tatum]

in America than the other race. Nobody. We're talking about black people.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Yeah.

[Brandon Tatum]

Do you think that black hip hop music, rap music is detrimental to the black community?

[Voting Rights Advocate]

No.

[Brandon Tatum]

You think it has no effect on the psyche of a young man listens to that every day? No, because I was able. I disagree with you on that point. I think here lots of problems.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

How would you violate it? How would you prove that? What can be proved is a correlation between poverty and crime and that can be traced systemically through history. And this goes back to all the arguments we've made about wealth accumulation. How black you have been present, prevented from having that.

[Brandon Tatum]

Now, how can you associate that to white supremacy?

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

How can I associate that? You identify white supremacy and generational poverty. Do you think wealth is inherited?

[Brandon Tatum]

In part, yes.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

So do you think poverty is?

[Brandon Tatum]

Majority of people who are successful in this country do not get passed on generational wealth. A lot of people who are very successful came from nothing. I would argue that almost every black person who is successful came from nothing, which is an example of why capitalism works.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Yeah. Okay. So I went to one of the most conservative high schools in America. It is a very alluring and deceptive delusion to believe that because you live in circumstances that are different from the rest of black people, that somehow you are special.

[Brandon Tatum]

What do you mean? You're saying that. I mean that you work hard in this country.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

This is the way earlier, that you work hard. Oh, here's my.

[Brandon Tatum]

Don't commit crimes.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Someone who escaped poverty. And that means that this. Everybody has access to that.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, no, I'm not saying every. Not every white person has access to that.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

So then you acknowledge that there are forces against black people that are uniquely unique to black people.

[Sponsor Voice (Kickoff Credit)]

People.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

And where do those come from?

[Brandon Tatum]

I think a lot of it comes from the actions of black people.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

They make a personal responsibility that you can't indicate. How.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are you telling me? So are you. Are you a successful man? Considering, like, I'm doing my thing, yeah. Did you go to school?

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

I got incredibly.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are you educated?

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

I got incredibly.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are you educated?

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Yeah.

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay. What decisions did you have to make to get to the point that you're at?

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Okay. We want to talk about education. We want to talk about the difference in funding between schools and black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods.

[Brandon Tatum]

Funding. I went to the. I went to probably one of the poorest schools in my school district. That didn't. That didn't make the difference of whether or not I did my homework or not.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Yeah.

[Community Member or Debater]

This is the thing.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Why I think you're convinced that you're special.

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't think that inherently because the color of my skin, that somehow I'm behind the curb against white people.

[Social Justice Advocate]

Yeah.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Harriet Tubman escaped the plantation. A lot of people didn't. Is it the fault of all those black people? They couldn't escape.

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't get your point there.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

The point. The point that I'm making is that people live in dire circumstances and every once in a while someone can break down. And that's not an indication of the system.

[Brandon Tatum]

Black people don't live in a world where every now and again, the majority of black people live in the middle class.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Yes. But a lot more black people live in poverty than any other. Than any other.

[Brandon Tatum]

Disproportionate. And a lot of those are because of decision making. When you have children.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

And you're not.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

And this is why I'm saying that I think you think that black people have some. Some unique moral definition. You're saying that there's an epidemic of personal responsibility in black people. But you can't prove that yet. We can prove that systemic racism.

[Brandon Tatum]

What you're doing is you're assessing or.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

When does systemic racism stop in America? When does systemic racism stop in America? America.

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't think there was real systemic racism ever.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Keep going. Please, keep going. I would love for you to go for the rest of this time on that.

[Brandon Tatum]

I do not believe.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Yeah.

[Brandon Tatum]

That there's been systemic racism in America. That's been a primary reason why black people cannot succeed.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Right. But you can't prove that personal. That there's an epidemic of personal responsibility. You can prove that systemic racism.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, no.

[History Teacher]

Look.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

And that's why I'm asking you when you stop. Because theoretically that should be.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are you saying. Are you saying. Are you saying that black people are not responsible for the decisions that they make.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Make. I'm saying everyone has agency. Everyone commits crime. Everyone does everything. But people have had different circumstances.

[Brandon Tatum]

So therefore, if you do the right things like you did, you have an opportunity to be successful, which is equal to just about anybody. Else, no matter what color you are, you think white people are better than you.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

No, but I worry you do.

[Brandon Tatum]

Why do I? Why do you think I do? I'm the one that's saying that black people have an opportunity to be successful in this country just as well as anybody else. You don't believe that. So you think white people are better than you.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Your prop perhaps could have been we should do more to prevent crime and poverty in black communities. Right? That's a way of framing the argument that is about.

[Brandon Tatum]

You can say frame or whatever you want. You are focusing on. We're talking about black people.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

I'm focusing on language because words are important.

[Brandon Tatum]

We're talking about black people and you focusing on what white people doing. So who harmed black people more than other black people?

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Probably people who brought us over here on boats.

[Brandon Tatum]

Black usodas.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Ladies and gentlemen, the time's up. Now that was fun. Thank you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Appreciate you, man.

[Sponsor Voice (Nik Nac)]

Nicotine, the ultimate biohacker secret weapon has made a wild comeback. But why is that clean lifestyle still fueled by big tobacco's chemical laden slop? For those who switch out LEDs for incandescents, source raw milk and read every single label, it's time to stop compromising. Introducing Nik Nac, the nicotine solution that actually complements a clean routine. This family owned company manufactures a superior nicotine lozenge right here in the usa. Affectionately known as a lip brick, this fully dissolvable option is crafted with just six premium ingredients including real essential oils for authentic flavor. There are no ph adjusters, no plastic pouches and absolutely no waste. Available in 3 and 6mg strengths. This is nicotine perfected. Reject the compromise and raise the standard. Go to knickknack.com surrounded and use code surrounded for 20% off or use the store locator to find knickknacks near you. Warning this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Brandon Tatum]

My next surrounded claim is that black people hurt black people more than any other group.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

If you'd like to be the next debater, get to the chair in 3, 2, 1.

[Brandon Tatum]

What's up brother? How you doing?

[Community Member or Debater]

Okay. I personally think that since we're talking about groups, I think that Republicans, their leadership caused more harm. I think the fact that Louisiana, which has one of the highest murder rates or a cop has one of the highest poverty rates, that's run by Republicans. And honestly with the voting rights act, they just ax the fact that black people can have a voice. So when we talk about like political harm Republicans are trying to destroy. Destroy black people. When we talk about economic harm, Republicans, I mean with the terrorists, with just how we're doing as a country right now. Republicans have axed any way that black people can be able to speak profit. We can go back to racist policies like redlining that, you know, President Trump has participated in twice. I just don't understand how black people are doing more harm there.

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay, I disagree with a few things that you've claimed, but what I'm saying is that if you look at, I don't know, the ages of everybody in this room, but if you're 25 and under, the leading cause of death for you is being murdered by another black person.

[Community Member or Debater]

Where?

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Where?

[Brandon Tatum]

What do you mean where?

[Community Member or Debater]

Where are victimization of black people higher?

[Brandon Tatum]

In black neighborhoods?

[Community Member or Debater]

Where? In red states? In Mississippi?

[History Teacher]

Missouri?

[Community Member or Debater]

No, no. Right.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, not necessarily true. Mississippi as a state, obviously has majority white people that live in it. We're talking about cities that are primarily black that are dealing with these issues.

[Community Member or Debater]

So my problem with this is that whenever we talk about black harm, we're only able to talk about murder rates.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, it's not just murder rates. I would argue that black people systemically voting for Democrats have been very harmful to the black community. Well, when you look at. Let's start from Martin Luther King all the way on, there's plenty of statistical data points where black people have declined, who have. In the birth rate. Let me finish.

[Community Member or Debater]

I'm sorry.

[Brandon Tatum]

And black. Young black people born into single parent homes. Black people engaging in employment. Can I come back? Let me get. We get to point by point.

[Historian or Academic]

Yeah.

[Brandon Tatum]

And this entire time, black people have been consistently voting for Democrats, which I argue is hurting the black communities.

[Community Member or Debater]

You went to employment. You went to employment. Right. So let's talk about unemployment. Who had the lowest black unemployment?

[Brandon Tatum]

What you mean who had.

[Community Member or Debater]

What president? Yeah, what president?

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, Joe Biden did.

[Community Member or Debater]

Okay, so Joe Biden, the Democrat. Right.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me explain. The first decline that we saw, which was historic, was under President Trump.

[Community Member or Debater]

Yeah.

[Brandon Tatum]

And then.

[Community Member or Debater]

And then it was historic under Biden. Right. After the pandemic. Right, right. It was historically low in 2023 at 5.3 or 5.2 for Black unemployment, which was. Beats Trump's 5.5, which increased to like a 7.9 by the end of this year.

[Brandon Tatum]

Some, some people can argue that Trump's policies residually rolled over like the Tax

[Community Member or Debater]

Cut and Jobs Tax Cut and Jobs Act.

[Brandon Tatum]

Opportunity Zones help black people. Tax cuts.

[Community Member or Debater]

Is that why he didn't bring them back and brought them back to rural areas.

[Brandon Tatum]

Tax cuts do help black people. I don't know if you believe this or not, but black people do have jobs.

[Community Member or Debater]

Why didn't they do.

[Brandon Tatum]

I agree on taxes being cut.

[Community Member or Debater]

That's why. Unemployment rate. But when we were talking about tax cut, Biden had a child tax credit that Trump took away that the Republicans didn't want to put into his 2023 and 2024 year. So why are the Republicans stopping those tax cuts that you said black people have to.

[Brandon Tatum]

I think we're getting off track. The premise of what I'm saying is that the ailments that we see in the black community are perpetuated by other black people. Listen, let me.

[Community Member or Debater]

Let me say a way for public.

[Brandon Tatum]

The drugs that are sold in our communities are sold by us. The crimes. The crime that is committed in our communities, that's devastating. Our communities are perpetuated primarily from.

[Community Member or Debater]

So what's your solution?

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay, what should black people. I can give you a solution.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

You've been voted up by the majority.

[Community Member or Debater]

Thank you so much.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Thank you so much.

[Community Member or Debater]

Have a great one.

[Social Justice Advocate]

Thank you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Thank you, brother.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

If you would like to be the next debater, please get to the chair in three, two, one.

[Educator or Social Worker]

How are you?

[S]

Good. I'm Zena. Nice to meet you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Nice to meet you as well.

[S]

Okay, so black people hurt black people more than anyone else hurts black people. Okay, my question to you is why?

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, that's a really good question. I think that it stimulates from a few different facets, and I think a lot of them are responsible for the most part by black people. When you are not raised in a loving household and you're not protected, you don't have a father in the household. Those things lead to devastating outcomes. Young men doing things they're not supposed to do, like we see in modern society, these young YNs, all of these things are contributing factors to decisions that we make.

[S]

Okay, cool. So what you're describing is a byproduct of poverty, right? And what we know under a capitalist system is that poverty compounds over time and history as well as wealth. And what has happened systematically as well as systemically in the system is that black people have been pushed away from wealth, creating mechanisms. This has happened for generations, even past slavery. Even if we were to argue that after slavery, nothing else happened. There was no Jim Crow laws, there was no redlining, there was no unequal implementation of the GI Bill, we would still see that, like our country has lived under this disenfranchisement of black people longer than it has been Free. So my question is, because what do you think accounts for, like, the $4 to $16 trillion that was stolen from black people through slavery? Like, where does that equalizing mechanism.

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't believe that you can say that money was stolen from black people during slavery. Oh, but let me explain. Because money wasn't stolen, opportunities were not there because black people were slaves. It's not a fair comparison.

[S]

So imagine you got 200 people on a plantation, and they're making you millions and millions of dollars, right. A year through their labor. Right? So what happens is there's no money to steal because black people weren't granted

[Brandon Tatum]

the humanity to be compensated for black people they created. Well, let's look at it like this. This is an environment and a dispensation of time where slavery was a fact and a reality around the world.

[S]

And we live under capitalism, Right?

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me explain. So it's not like it was somehow uniquely.

[S]

Oh, it was very unique to the west.

[Educator or Social Worker]

Somehow uniquely.

[Brandon Tatum]

In the United States of America, chattel slavery, majority of the slaves.

[S]

Do you want to compare chattel slavery?

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me just give you an example. Majority of the slaves were in South America. You do agree to that? About 400,000 black people overtime.

[S]

Why are we pivoting the conversation?

[Brandon Tatum]

My question was anything? You got it. You get. You jumping around.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

No, no, no, no.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let's stick to something.

[S]

Do you remember the question I asked you around two minutes ago? I asked you this.

[Brandon Tatum]

I feel like you want to be confrontational more than you want to get to the bottom of the conversation. You're saying it's unfortunate that the way

[S]

that you feel about how I'm trying.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's not true. We need to stick to a point equalizing mechanism.

[S]

Four to $16 trillion, right. Was the revenue that was created through the unpaid labor that came from chattel slavery?

[Brandon Tatum]

In my opinion, you cannot judge slavery and act as if black people even had a fair chance in the first place.

[S]

That's what I'm talking about here.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me explain. We need to talk in terms of after slavery was abolished, what opportunities were presented to people?

[S]

We cut out around two thirds of the story, right? So what I told you before, right? We live under capitalism. And if we live under capitalism, what we know is a couple things. Wealth comes from capital, and capital compounds. Right value. So what happens is property taxes.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are you trying to say that inevitably black people will never have an opportunity to be successful in America? Is that what you're explaining?

[S]

Something really, really crucial here?

[Brandon Tatum]

Can you answer that? Because I think we'll Be on the same.

[S]

You can't interrupt me. We're not having the same conversation.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm trying to get to a point where we can have a real discussion.

[S]

If it is the case that property tax. Taxes. Right. Fund our school systems, build them up. Okay? And we see redlining, literally labeled neighborhoods where black people were living as inharmonious, full of inharmonious racial groups to the point where they couldn't get the mortgage. Right. This was, what, 60 years ago? Grandparents, parents. Right. Who experienced that inability to have a home. Two thirds of the middle class gets their generational wealth from properties. Where's this equalizing mechanism? Why do you expect there to be a similar playing field?

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay, I think we're gonna go in circles if we go back in time. What mechanisms?

[Community Member or Debater]

Oh, we got it.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm saying that we're gonna get to a standstill. What mechanisms are in place today that prevent you from having the same financial success as anybody else in this country?

[S]

Does inheritance exist under contract?

[Educator or Social Worker]

No, no.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm just. I'm giving you.

[Social Justice Advocate]

No, no, no, no.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm asking you to answer this question because I've asked two questions. What mechanism in place currently prevents you from being financially successful as anybody else in this country?

[S]

The continuity of. Of private property. Right. So I'm answering the question.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are you allowed to own property?

[S]

That's not the question here. It's who had access to property?

[Brandon Tatum]

No, we know. We know. Let's put it this way, because we're going to get into a argument in circles. I don't think we're going in circles.

[S]

I think you're not answering the question.

[Brandon Tatum]

Here's a thing that we can agree on.

[S]

Two questions.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me say this is a thing that we can agree on. We can agree that there was discrimination in this country. We can agree that there's some elements of.

[S]

Do you agree that inheritance exists?

[Brandon Tatum]

We can agree that there's elements of things that happen in this country that put black people behind. We can agree to that.

[S]

Okay, but.

[Brandon Tatum]

But what I'm telling you is that we cannot still live. We're not living in the future years ago. We're living in the future and act as if we don't have an opportunity today.

[Community Member or Debater]

Here, let me.

[Brandon Tatum]

We could break down redlining. We can go through the process of all these different things. Let me address it, because I don't think that we're telling a full story about redlining. I don't think we tell the full story about economic opportunity for black people in America today.

[S]

Right. So white families on average have a 10 times higher median household income.

[Brandon Tatum]

And black people. Why is it.

[S]

And that's what I want to answer for you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me answer.

[S]

You asked me a question. Why are you answering the question that you asked to me?

[History Teacher]

For you.

[Brandon Tatum]

You just let me. Let me answer the question for you.

[S]

No, no, I don't want you to answer it for me because I want to answer. I want to participate in it back and forth.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Okay?

[Brandon Tatum]

Come on.

[S]

The reason is because wealth in this country is passed down the biggest. You know, in 2020, they projected that $765 billion. Right. Was passed down through gifts and bequests to the American population, the middle class. And that's just the middle class. That is the majority way that wealth funnels down in this country.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are you saying that black people are not currently able to have financial success in this country just like white people?

[S]

I'm saying that we're comparing a tortoise to a hare right now.

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't think that's true. Are you alluding to the fact. Let's talk about redlining real quick because I think that it's been disproportionately represented. When you talk about redlining, do you know, and I think it's good for the crowd to understand this, that in the red line districts, 92% of all the people who live in the red line districts were white. Are you aware of that?

[S]

Where is this source coming from? Redlining specifically labeled.

[Brandon Tatum]

Do you not know this as a fact?

[S]

How about this? The underwritings of the HOLC specifically said that black groups, right, Were seen as inharmonious groups, that we should be very wary.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, no, let's look it up.

[S]

The fact check will be somewhere here or here for you.

[Brandon Tatum]

If H A senior. That's what the FHA groups, black people

[S]

were titled in har. Fha. Okay. They both work together.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, they do not work together. They were different.

[S]

They were different, but they worked together.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Guys, you do have to vote it out. Thank you. If you would like to be the next debater, get to that chair in three, two, one.

[Brandon Tatum]

Peace, brother. What's up, bro?

[Social Justice Advocate]

So we're talking about black on black crime?

[Brandon Tatum]

Yeah, we can address that.

[Social Justice Advocate]

Black on black crime is a myth. Human beings create crime based off where they're at. In the 90s, there was opioid epidemics, specifically Oxycontin. This was white drug dealers selling this medicine to white fiends. Over 80,000 people in the year 2023, according to the CDC, overdosed from opioids. That same year, 31,000 people overdosed from cocaine. Now, a portion of those cocaine users were likely black people who were on crack. However, more than twice as many people overdosed on opioids that were white drug dealers selling to white fiends. However, in no instance did anyone come up a policymaker and say that this opioid crisis was white on white crime. However, when black people engage in crime based off where they're at, the government uses it as an excuse to overcriminalize them in a way that white communities are not criminalized at all.

[Brandon Tatum]

I disagree with you because I don't think that anybody saying black on black crime necessitates a police response. People point out that black people disproportionately, to a higher degree per capita kill each other more than any other group.

[Social Justice Advocate]

It's not accurate.

[Brandon Tatum]

That is 100% accurate. That is 100 accurate. Anybody can fact check that. We kill each other at a higher rate per capita than any other group. That is a fact. Now, the reason that people point this out is because others try to claim that the biggest threat to our existence, the biggest threat to our young people are white people or systemic racism. But the reality is the cause of death, the leading cause of death for young people 25 and under, from 15 to 25, is being murdered by another black man. Then you go on beyond that and the leading cat cause of death is what? Health issues.

[Social Justice Advocate]

I dig it.

[Brandon Tatum]

Heart disease, diabetes and other. It has nothing to do with white people.

[Social Justice Advocate]

Okay, okay, cool. So the biggest threat to black people and the biggest threat to the world is the system of racism and white supremacy that we live in. Because the system of racism, white supremacy.

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me an example.

[Educator or Social Worker]

How.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'll give you that rebound system that directly affect you.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Exactly.

[Social Justice Advocate]

The system of racism, white supremacy affects every faction of interaction.

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me an example.

[Social Justice Advocate]

I'll give you something talking economic, social and sports. So these sports. Yes. So these, these black drug dealers that you're mad at, for example, Freddie Gray. Freddie Gray was a petty black drug dealer.

[Brandon Tatum]

He still was selling drugs.

[Social Justice Advocate]

Yes, he was selling drugs. Selling drugs to black people.

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay.

[Social Justice Advocate]

But no petty white drug dealer has ever been thrown in the black in the back of a patty wagon and ended up. People are. Only petty black drug dealers are criminalized for selling drugs. That's because we live in a system.

[Brandon Tatum]

You want to go to Freddie Gray supreme, who was the judge.

[Social Justice Advocate]

Who was the judge who over criminalizes the actions of black people? Who was the judge who overlooks petty white crime?

[Brandon Tatum]

Who was the prosecutor and Judge that allow those police officers to get off in that crime. It was a black judge and a

[Social Justice Advocate]

black Prosecutor also in 2018, and there were Black officers in 2018, there were multiple officers in Baltimore who were found guilty of planting drugs and weapons on black people and arresting them. That is an example of racism, white supremacy being used to weaponize crime and criminalize black people.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Have you.

[Social Justice Advocate]

You've never heard an instance in which petty white drug dealers have had drugs and weapons planted on them that has led to their arrest?

[Brandon Tatum]

Have you ever been a police officer? God, no. You have arrested anybody?

[Social Justice Advocate]

God, no.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, let me just. Let me break this down. The things that you're saying are focused on what's happening in the black community. You don't know what's happening.

[S]

Community.

[Social Justice Advocate]

I know exactly. I just told you.

[S]

I just told you.

[Social Justice Advocate]

They're fiend out. I told you.

[S]

There's opiate.

[Social Justice Advocate]

There's an opioid. There's an opioid crisis. White street drug dealers are selling street fentanyl and maya and opioids to white fiends. But it's cool and it's not over criminalized.

[Brandon Tatum]

Cool to who?

[Social Justice Advocate]

It's cool to the.

[Brandon Tatum]

It's cool to the government that.

[Social Justice Advocate]

It's cool to the people that write the laws.

[Brandon Tatum]

The people that write the laws.

[Social Justice Advocate]

The government and the politicians are not over criminalizing this behavior. They're not chasing the white dope dealer, the white petty drug dealer. They're not chasing him around.

[Brandon Tatum]

They're throwing him into the back of

[Social Justice Advocate]

a bag in the back of a paddy wagon.

[Brandon Tatum]

What makes you think.

[Social Justice Advocate]

The same way that Freddie Gray got thrown into a paddy.

[Audience Member or Debater]

Wait.

[Brandon Tatum]

What makes you think that they're not chasing criminals?

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Timothy, please let Officer Tatum speak and address what you're.

[Brandon Tatum]

Yeah, you said a lot of things. If you're saying that there's no instances where white people are getting arrested, arrested for criminal activity, or you're saying that they're not thrown in the back of the patty.

[Social Justice Advocate]

They're criminalized in the same way as black people.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, that's not true.

[Social Justice Advocate]

What I'm saying is these white drug dealers are not policed and criminalized and put on TV and looked at as criminals and drug dealers in the same way that petty black drug dealers like Freddie Gray are criminalized and thrown in the back of the street.

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay, let me respond to you. I think that.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

I have to pause it here. He's been voted out by the majority. If you would like to be the next debater, please get to the chair in 3, 2, 1. Back, back, back again.

[Historian or Academic]

Okay, so thank you for clarifying the prompt for us, because I was a little confused reading it, because white people hurt white people around the same rates. But I guess my question is, like, starting when and how are you quantifying harm?

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay, that's a great question. I think that we can go all the way back to the beginning, if you want to. In slavery, when the slave trade was proliferated, black people enslaved each other. Where in Africa, Black people enslave other blacks, and Africans sold them all over the world. That, to me, that's an incredible harm of black people inflicting on other blacks and perpetuating it across the world. Then you have slavery now perpetuated in South America. You have it in the United States of America. That is initial harm. I would argue that the point in time of slavery in America as we know it, I believe that white people hurt black people more than black people did.

[Historian or Academic]

Yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

Now we go post slavery. I believe that black people begin to take the torch and destroy themselves or destroy other blacks more than any other group in America.

[Historian or Academic]

Okay, so let's start post slavery. I'm gonna ignore the thing about black. Black people selling black people.

[Brandon Tatum]

Is that not true?

[Historian or Academic]

Well, we just. Do you know how many black people were sold as slaves to each other in Africa?

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, millions were sold in the slave trade around the world.

[Historian or Academic]

Are you talking about the transatlantic slave

[Brandon Tatum]

trade or before the transatlantic transatlantic slave trade?

[Historian or Academic]

Okay, yeah, but that was by white

[Brandon Tatum]

people again, what you mean it was by white people? I'm saying that black people enslaved other blacks and sold them to white people.

[Historian or Academic]

They were primarily kidnapped by the Portuguese.

[Brandon Tatum]

There was not primary kidnapping. It was the actual legal slave trade that existed.

[Historian or Academic]

Yes, yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

I mean, millions of transactions between Africans.

[Historian or Academic]

The legal slave trade that existed before the transatlantic slave trade was mainly based on when a tribe conquered another tribe. There were prisoners, which is still enslaved. But it's different from the transatlantic slave trade when we're talking about black people hurting black people versus white people hurting black people.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Right.

[Historian or Academic]

But I wanted to go focus on your claim about post slavery. Post slavery, yes. So the primary.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

I guess.

[Historian or Academic]

What. What do you think black people were doing post slavery?

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, you know, I think there's a period of time where there was an explosion of black excellence.

[Historian or Academic]

Yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

Reconstruction after slavery was abolished. Right. You know, we have black people fighting in the military, black people owning our own companies, building wealth. We have black Wall Street. We have. You go on, so on and so forth. And I believe that as black people begin to support Mark's theology. Martin Luther King and others put us in a. In a path.

[Historian or Academic]

Okay, okay.

[Brandon Tatum]

Where we rely on the government more than our own resilience.

[Historian or Academic]

Okay.

[Brandon Tatum]

You cannot tell me that that's not true.

[Historian or Academic]

So let's, let's pause because we just skipped like a good 30 years of history. We just skipped like three decades.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm giving you a summation from the 36 years.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Okay.

[Brandon Tatum]

Yeah.

[Historian or Academic]

So we get. We did reconstruction and reconstruction was ended. Right. Because the south took back at the time, we had northerners in the south who were running the south so that the union could stay together. Once the north left the south, reconstruction ends. And that's when we see black people start to decline. It wasn't Karl Marx. Karl Marx didn't come in and say.

[Brandon Tatum]

You said Marxist theology. I didn't say Karl Marx.

[Historian or Academic]

It wasn't Marxist theology. I mean, we're just ignoring the history of sharecropping. That's ignoring the history of Jim Crow. Right. You think that Karl Marx. Marx was worse for the black community than Jim Crow segregation.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me argue this point. Capitalism has rescued and made successful so many people of different backgrounds and demographics. That's why America is so great. What I'm saying is that black people being resilient, operating through capitalism and believing in themselves and being self sustainable was the best path for blacks. And they were successful in that. When they began to rely on the government, government begin to rely on handouts, begin to listen to foolish things that people like Martin Luther King said. It caused us to be more dependent on the government, less dependent on ourselves. And now you see decline in multifaceted areas, consistent. Let me say. I'm gonna let you speak. I'll let you speak. But what I'm saying is that when you look at other groups, minority groups, they did not fall for that. You look at the Jewish population, look at immigrants that came over here. They were self sustainable. They worked within their communities. They built wealth, generational wealth amongst each other. They did not form out their existence to the government.

[Historian or Academic]

Please. Thank you. So the other immigrant groups that you're talking about, first of all, were not subject to Jim Crow segregation laws. But do you. I just want you to.

[Brandon Tatum]

Jews were subject to Jim Crows.

[Historian or Academic]

I think you're going to answer this question yes or no. Do you think that Karl Marx hurt the black community and his ideology hurt the black community more than Jim Crow segregation?

[Brandon Tatum]

I have to think that through Jim Crow segregation.

[Historian or Academic]

What does that think about?

[Brandon Tatum]

Because you're acting.

[Historian or Academic]

Karl Marx is white. So that would still be a white person in the black community. Just saying.

[Brandon Tatum]

But then Martin Luther King embraces theology.

[Historian or Academic]

Okay, but.

[Brandon Tatum]

Which is a black man leading the black community off a cliff. Now, let me just say this.

[Historian or Academic]

So you.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm saying that every black person was not subject. Every black person was not subject to Jim Crow laws. Every black person did not live in the South. There was a lot of successful black people during that time period. I mean, we. I will give you an example.

[Historian or Academic]

Harlem Renaissance, of course.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm say. I'll give you an example of black people who were incredibly successful through what? Capitalism. We see Madam C.J. walker, the first female millionaire out of any race. Very successful in the late 1900s. Early. I mean, late 1800s. Early 1900s. That's not just one.

[Historian or Academic]

That is.

[Brandon Tatum]

We have a tremendous amount of success. George Washington Carver. We have.

[Historian or Academic]

I'd let you about talk for a long time. I would like my turn to speak. I feel like we're completely jumping over history. We go from slavery to Martin Luther King, then all the way back. We ignore the history of sharecropping, right? We've completely glossed over sharecropping. We've completely glossed over Jim Crow laws and how much wealth was stolen from the black community. We've completely glossed over the Tulsa race riots. And when black people did succeed under capitalism, those communities were destroyed. We completely glossed over eminent domain and how much of the black community was taken. Like literal black.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let's talk about.

[Historian or Academic]

Like, what about Seneca Village?

[Brandon Tatum]

Let's talk about black Wall Street. Let's talk about black Wall Street. Are we on the same page of what happened in the Tulsa riots, Tulsa race war?

[Historian or Academic]

It depends. What do you think happened?

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, I know what happened. There was a conflict between black and white people. There was a fight between the two white people. Got the best of black people in Tulsa, then.

[Historian or Academic]

No, we are not on the same page.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, let me finish. Let me finish and you tell me where I'm wrong. In that fight, there was a lot of black businesses destroyed in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They rebuilt. I don't know, maybe three or four years later, and they begin to continue to succeed. Is that not factual?

[Historian or Academic]

No.

[Brandon Tatum]

What's the truth? What happened then?

[Historian or Academic]

I mean, the truth is that a community of successful black people who were succeeding under capitalism were directly targeted because

[Brandon Tatum]

they were not directly targeted. It was a conflict. It was a conflict between a black man. I believe it was a black black man.

[Historian or Academic]

It started when a black man was accused of lynching, or not lynching, was accused of raping a woman, and then because of that there was this inappropriate behavior.

[Brandon Tatum]

Inappropriate behavior with a woman. There was a. There was. There was a conflict that occurred. The first shots rang out from the black. From black people, shooting and killing several white people.

[Historian or Academic]

So how many black people were killed in total?

[Brandon Tatum]

Oh, I don't know. How many black people were killed in total. I just know black people fired the fish.

[Educator or Social Worker]

Well, I do.

[Historian or Academic]

Can I tell you? It was 300.

[Brandon Tatum]

How many white people were killed?

[Historian or Academic]

Like a low.

[Brandon Tatum]

How many white people were killed?

[Fact Checker or Debater]

They.

[Historian or Academic]

Not as many. Because it was a riot.

[Brandon Tatum]

Because what happened was white people came up into Tulsa, Oklahoma. It became a. A violent confrontation. And white people overran the black people in that confrontation.

[Historian or Academic]

Because it kind of feels like you're defending the race rioters.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm not defending any race riots. I'm saying it's a conflict that happened. Can you're saying that it's targeted.

[Historian or Academic]

Can you give us one example in which white people hurt black people?

[Voting Rights Advocate]

You're saying.

[Historian or Academic]

Can you just say this is one.

[Brandon Tatum]

What you're trying to say is that black people are doing their own thing and a bunch of white people just came up and destroyed all their property. Just because that wasn't what happened. It was a conflict that occurred that caused that to happen.

[Historian or Academic]

But you know the KKK existed, right?

[Brandon Tatum]

They did, yes.

[Historian or Academic]

White supremacy existed.

[Brandon Tatum]

And that was in the South.

[Historian or Academic]

Where's Oklahoma?

[Brandon Tatum]

I didn't say that white supremacy don't exist. We're not arguing.

[Historian or Academic]

Yes, that was the point, though.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm not arguing that the Ku Klux Klan didn't have a negative effect in the black community.

[Historian or Academic]

We're not arguing that, but that's what we are arguing. The whole point of this prompt is that black people hurt the black community more than white people. And these are some examples of white people hurting the black community. And every time I give you one,

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

you say, no, let's give.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let's give an example of some things that are ailments in the black community that I think that we can. We can agree on.

[Audience Member or Debater]

Okay?

[Brandon Tatum]

The single parent household situation with young black men born out of, you know, young black men born or. And women are born to parents who are not married.

[Historian or Academic]

Okay, guys, please don't raise the flags on me. I have to make one point and then I'll get it. Okay? So to the single parent house. I think that's a great example, right? Because I think we can all agree we want black families to stay together. What is the leading cause of the separation of black families?

[Brandon Tatum]

I think it's a degradation of values in the Black community.

[Historian or Academic]

Would you say that the criminalization, black men disproportionately going to jail more has an effect on the separation of the black house?

[Brandon Tatum]

I would agree to that. But I would also say that is because of the choices and decisions that these young black men are making.

[Historian or Academic]

Perfect. Thank you. I was hoping you would say that.

[Brandon Tatum]

So is that not true? You don't go to jail. You go to jail for selling drugs.

[Historian or Academic]

Okay. You go to jail for selling drugs. Can I read you a quote from Nixon's domestic policy chief, John Ehrlichman? This is at the start of the war on drugs, which we know is what led to a lot of mass incarceration of the black community, a significant increase in black men imprisoned and incarcerated for drug possession and selling. We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the Vietnam war or black. But by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities.

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm not familiar with that quote.

[Educator or Social Worker]

Oh, really?

[Historian or Academic]

Shocking.

[Brandon Tatum]

I can go and read it later. But that's still not getting to the point.

[Historian or Academic]

You should really read it later.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's not getting to the point of saying that people are incarcerated because decisions that they made to commit crimes. Is that not true?

[Historian or Academic]

Well, yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

That's the reason that none of us. The reason that none of us. The reason that none of us are selling dope.

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Why?

[Brandon Tatum]

Because we don't want to go to prison. We value our lives. If you are going to sell drugs and you're going to kill people and you're going to commit robbery, you're going to go to jail.

[Historian or Academic]

Yes, yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

You can't blame all of that on the war on crime or whatever the case may be.

[Historian or Academic]

The war on crime was specifically to get black men to come.

[Brandon Tatum]

It is nothing wrong. It literally is nothing wrong with imposing laws that help our community. You act like.

[Historian or Academic]

How does that help?

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me explain. You act like it's a good thing for black people to be selling drugs in our community. It is not so when you go to jail for selling drugs, in my opinion, and I think the opinion of anybody, that's rational, that is a benefit to the black community by getting drug dealers, criminals, off the street and our communities will be able to thrive. Our property value to be able to go up. These people need to go to jail. It's not a negative.

[Historian or Academic]

Okay, I hear you. I hear you. Thank you. But literally, the domestic policy chief is saying we could disrupt those communities. He is openly admitting. No, no, no. I let you talk a lot. I need you to let.

[Brandon Tatum]

I need you to clarify this. Disrupt these communities in what way? What is he saying? Disrupt the communities by heavily.

[Historian or Academic]

By criminalizing.

[Brandon Tatum]

To what? Go to what end? To hurt black people. It hurt black people to get criminals off the street.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Officers, you guys have gone over. So thank you both so much.

[Brandon Tatum]

Thank you.

[Historian or Academic]

Thank you.

[Brandon Tatum]

My final surrounding claim is that systemic racism is used as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

If you'd like to be the next debater, get to the chair in 3, 2, 1.

[Brandon Tatum]

Hello, how are you?

[Historian or Academic]

Nice to meet you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Nice to meet you.

[Healthcare Advocate]

What do you mean by systemic? Are you talking about like sociology within our society or do you mean within the structure of our government?

[Brandon Tatum]

I'm thinking that people would argue. Cause I don't feel systemic racism a part of my life, but I'm thinking that systems or laws that are put in place to. Or put in place or even that are implemented or acted upon to bring down black people is alleged to bring down black people.

[Healthcare Advocate]

You would say DEI was a hindrance

[Brandon Tatum]

to us because that's a lot of

[Healthcare Advocate]

what Republicans like to argue.

[Brandon Tatum]

DEI is part of systemic racism.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Uh huh.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

That's.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Cause that's what a lot of them will believe.

[Brandon Tatum]

Dei, in my opinion, was the overcorrection of injustices that has happened to black people which caused, I think, more harm to black people than good.

[Healthcare Advocate]

So systematic racism does exist.

[Brandon Tatum]

I think in part systematic racism and racism in America does exist.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Okay, thank you. You literally, I don't think.

[Brandon Tatum]

But my point is that I don't think that is. It rises to the degree that it affects black people where they cannot be successful in America and they cannot have the same opportunities as others do in America. I don't think it's a primary causation of black people or the things that are ailments in the black community that cause the numbers of blacks and marker points to go down and be degenerate.

[Healthcare Advocate]

So I like to think that when we put in redline districting, when we put all that stuff in, we saw that our schools were greatly affected by that. We saw that the systems within the schools were greatly affected in the way that some were more white schools and a lot of white districting, predominantly white districting, were way more economically benefited by the community around them than the black community who could not afford to grow any kind of economic revenue for themselves within the education system. We weren't able to get certain soccer fields, we weren't able to get different auditoriums for acting and stuff like that. You know, when you're not able to have those kind of, like, things in your school, how do you expect people to not want to go to the streets? How do you expect. Expect them to not want to. How do you expect them to invest in things that they cannot afford within their system?

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, let me. Let me give you a perspective here. Not all black people are poor, right? I know you're not saying that, but I'm saying it's a lot of diversity within. So I grew up in a black neighborhood, right? All black people within the black neighborhood. There are those who succeed and those who do not succeed. There are those who go on and get a good education. Even at the same school that I went to. To, there's some that do well and some that do not do well. In my opinion, that's a perfect example of how. I don't think systemic racism has much to do with the success of black people. It's personal decision making. Some of it does have something to

[Healthcare Advocate]

do with parents like, you can do good, you can excel. You can be great. And I really do believe that it is a part of your person. You're part of your personality. But I'm saying that there is. Obviously, you can see that there are less black people that are able to graduate than white people. There are ways, but I don't think

[Brandon Tatum]

that has anything to do with systemic racism.

[Healthcare Advocate]

No, you don't think that's anything.

[Brandon Tatum]

You don't say.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Anything to do with them not being

[Brandon Tatum]

able to afford to continue going to

[Healthcare Advocate]

school because of the systems that were put in place?

[Brandon Tatum]

I didn't say today is here.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

I'm so sorry. You have been voted out by the majority. Thank you.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Thank you.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

If you would like to be the next debater to the chair, get there in three, two, one.

[Brandon Tatum]

What's up, man?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

All right, I just want to.

[Brandon Tatum]

Can I lay the foundation of this real quick? I was just about to have you do that. So what I want to say is, and I want us to be very clear about this, and I'm hoping that we all can at least come to a common knowledge of this. I do not believe that there's no such thing as racism in America. There's racism in America. There's systems that disproportionately affect black people in a negative way. But what I'm saying is that I don't even think it's close to a primary reason why black people see success or do not seek success in America. So I think it's a very minor thing that occurs in society. Everybody has their own engagement with disparity in this country. Some believe it's discrimination. You have privileges of being better looking. You have privileges of being athletic. You have privileges of having parents. All of those things are contributing factors that everybody engage in. Racism does exist, in part. Systemic things that cause black people to be behind the curb in part does exist, but it's not a significant reason why black people.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Clarification questions. First and foremost, why are you saying systemic racism instead of just racism?

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, you got to qualify it. I mean, systemic means the continuation of. Of racial practices. So you're saying from this point till now, that's why you would say systemic?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

You believe in interpersonal rel. Interpersonal racism. Can black people be racist?

[Brandon Tatum]

Yes.

[Sponsor Voice (Kickoff Credit)]

Really?

[Brandon Tatum]

Yes.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Okay. All right. So you're just wrong.

[Brandon Tatum]

How am I wrong?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I got you. Don't worry about it.

[Brandon Tatum]

Come on.

[Audience Member or Debater]

Come on.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

The reason why I asked about why you brought it down to systemic is because it's a hole. Racism is a whole. It's an entire system. Right. So when you talk about black people being racist, you have to understand the ability to actually flip the power structure and use the premise of race and racism for your benefit. Question, who created race?

[Brandon Tatum]

You know, that's a good question. I'm not really sure.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

It was a Portuguese man by the name of Gomez Ines de Zarara in 1452. He was actually commissioned by the Catholic Church and they told him to go out and document the difference between these people. Right.

[Brandon Tatum]

Do you believe in race? Do you believe race exists? No. No. You believe that it exists?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

We live in the social construct. It's not biological.

[Brandon Tatum]

So you're saying this man created it?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

And we perpetuate it.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Yes, it's literally.

[Brandon Tatum]

Black people also perpetuate it.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

It's documented. They published two papa bulls, one in 1455 and one in 1455.

[Brandon Tatum]

So we're on the same. We're on the same page. The social construct is not really.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Wait, wait. Of it being created, though.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, I'm not sure what his purpose

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

was to justify chattel slavery.

[Brandon Tatum]

Right. I don't. I. I do not agree.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

It's literally documented. I don't care.

[Brandon Tatum]

If I don't agree to that, I don't care.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

It's literally documented.

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

The point being is that this. This system was literally created to disenfranchise black people. Specifically, it's the structuring maintenance of a hierarchy which continues to actually create a free and cheap labor class. Chattel slavery. Prior to chattel slavery, there were slaves, but they weren't based off of race. After the creation of race, they engaged in chattel slavery to actually create this free and cheap labor class Now.

[Brandon Tatum]

But I don't think it was primarily to disenfranchise black people. It literally was racist. Race racism. Slavery was never about race. It was about cheap, available labor.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Chattel slavery was about race.

[Brandon Tatum]

Slavery.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Slavery was about race. I'm not saying slavery.

[Brandon Tatum]

The perpetuation of race. Perpetuation of slavery was not instigated by race.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I was saying slavery instead of chattel slavery. Acknowledge the thing that I'm saying.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, I don't. I don't really.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Do you know what the difference is between just slavery and chattel slavery?

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't see that being a major point to the conversation that we're having right now.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

You don't think chattel slavery is a major point?

[Brandon Tatum]

So the conversation we're having right now, I don't think there needs to be a delineation.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

It literally is, go make it.

[Brandon Tatum]

How does that affect you today? How does it affect you?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I got. Got you, Gomez. Ines de Ra said that these people were hypersexual, animalistic. They were the lower hemisphere and they needed to be civilized and they could civilize them vis a vis chattel slavery. Now, that rolls forward to where we are today. There's a whole bunch of stuff that you missed, But I'm going to skip forward.

[Brandon Tatum]

What policies.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

What policies are in place right now. I'm getting up right now that.

[Brandon Tatum]

Back up right now.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

These systems that black people exist in today that continue to disenfranchise us. Medical racism, educational racism, financial racism.

[Brandon Tatum]

Explain that.

[Philosopher or Sociologist]

Explain that to.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I got you. Do you know.

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't agree with you.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Do you know the black maternal mortality rate in the United States of America?

[Brandon Tatum]

I don't know it. But I do know this, that black people have a disproportionate effect in that area.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Yeah, it's 50.3 versus the white.

[Brandon Tatum]

But that's not. But that's not necessarily discrimination and disparities are different. That's not necessarily meaning that somehow the medical system is intentionally discriminating, literally, medical racism.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

You gotta let me finish. You gotta let me finish. 14.5. When it comes to the white maternity mortality rate, do you know what the infant mortality rate is?

[Brandon Tatum]

I do not know that offhand.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Yeah, the infant mortality rate is 10.8 versus white 4.5. There was a study that was completed that showed that when it comes to white babies, no matter who they're treated by, whatever race their doctor is Whoever they're treated by, they have the same possibility to life versus anyone else else. Black babies. Literally the survival rate for black babies drop unless it's a black doctor taking care of the baby. Everyone else the baby out of the womb. What you're saying the black baby has

[Sponsor Voice (Nik Nac)]

less of a possibility to life?

[Brandon Tatum]

It's literally. Let me give you a perspective. Because. Just because there's a statistical data point. You got to work through the data points. Because what you're saying is that every white doctor is racist against black people. That's what you're saying.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I'm telling you that's medical racism.

[Brandon Tatum]

So you're saying. So are you saying that when you go to the hospital, doctors are intentionally being racist?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I'm saying that doctors are taught through pseudoscience. Question for you. Have you ever heard the myth that black people have thick skin?

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me. I never heard of that.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

It's literally a medical practice. I've never heard of that. It's something that's. It's something that's derived from chattel slavery. Said black people have less nerve endings and thicker skin. And what they say.

[Brandon Tatum]

Where is that taught at?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

In medical school. Literally medical school.

[Brandon Tatum]

Did black people have thicker skin?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Thicker skin. I'll give you an example.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me give you a direct example. So when you go to the hospital today, they're going to treat you differently because you somehow have thicker skin. What medical practice is in place right now to treat you different?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

They're literally giving less pain medications to black people because they think black people lie about their pain levels because they have less nerve endings. This is literally doctor.

[Brandon Tatum]

So you're saying every doctor is filled with racism. And so when a black person go to hospital, they won't treat them fairly. They are incapable of treating black people fairly because they're black.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

What I'm telling you is this is something that has been taught in the past.

[Brandon Tatum]

Not correlation of 2.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Can I give you direct information? There's literally studies. You think it's a correlation causing studies.

[Brandon Tatum]

What about comorbidities? What about the health of the mother when she goes to the hospital?

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

You're not engaging in the premise just because you don't know the information.

[Brandon Tatum]

I know you. This is what you're saying.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Can I finish my point about the whole medical racism with the nerve endings, the thicker skin?

[Brandon Tatum]

Go ahead, man.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Sure. This was something that is derived from chattel slavery. They literally use this as an excuse. They said you can beat your black slaves because they feel less pain and they recover quickly. And so they use this as a pseudoscience to say that this still happens today.

[Community Member or Debater]

Hold on.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are black doctors taught the same thing?

[Voting Rights Advocate]

Yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

Are black people?

[Community Member or Debater]

No.

[S]

No, that's.

[Audience Member or Debater]

We. Yes, it's taught.

[Brandon Tatum]

We gotta go point by point. You're saying a system is taught to anybody in medicine here.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

I have to pause it here. You have been voted out by the majority. Thank you so much.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

I'm telling you. Hey.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Three, two, one.

[Educator or Social Worker]

All right, so you're talking about 20, 26, right? Okay, cool. You want to say that these systems no longer exist in the way that they have before, but kind of going off of some of the other claims, there's a resulting effect that comes from the decades and decades and generations and generations that have not received, like, fairness and equity. So when you say personal responsibility, even what you said, like, I come from a neighborhood where some people make it, some people don't. It's not that like, like you have a low floor and a high ceiling. Right. For white people, their floor is a little bit higher because they start off with a little bit more. Their families come from a little bit more. They might, you know, they might have better choices as opposed to better outcomes. And I think that if you don't apply that sense of logic into the decision making of what you're saying, it's like you're kind of. You're kind of victim shaming people who already have one foot kind of like in a trap and they're trying to run this race. But there's like, barriers that's holding them back that have been there for decades.

[Brandon Tatum]

Yeah, let me explain. I love what you said, and I think we agree on a lot of what you said. I'm not saying that there isn't disparity. There's clearly disparity. You would have to be a fool to say that there's not disparity in law enforcement. There's not disparity in. And what we've seen with the effect, the negative effects of redlining, which we could go into, that you can't. It's not that there's not disparities. What I'm saying is that these disparities that exist, I don't believe that they're rooted in systemic racism. And I don't think that we can't overcome them and become better. I don't believe that because, like. And then also some of these disparities, we have a lot of responsibility in changing these disparities. Like, we talk about a person's credit history. Like, that's a personal responsibility thing. We Talk about our young brothers getting locked up in prison. The things that we are doing and how we're teaching our young people, the music that we listen to, all of those things are contributing factors that keep us here. When white people are here on average, I don't think that there's a system in place that's really holding us back beyond what we've done to ourselves. That's what my claim is.

[Educator or Social Worker]

And I'm willing to say as somebody who come from, from a neighborhood that not necessarily a lot of people went the college route. Like I got a master's degree and everything like that. I'm reinvesting in my community and helping people out. But I do think that there's a piece of that that you said, like all of this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you said, but. And I think when you say that without like an. And it misses the mark of having humanity for people who might not again, like, choices are choices. And if I grew up in a neighborhood where I didn't have like books at a young age, I didn't have after school programs, my family couldn't afford a tutor, I couldn't get good lunch. So I'm eating the shit that. You know what I'm saying?

[Brandon Tatum]

So it's like, yeah, so let's keep that point. I agree with you 100%. Cause, you know, I wasn't always Brandon Tatum, you know, making the money I make and all that other stuff. Man. I grew up in a very, very balanced perspective. And I understand some people don't start from the same place. You know, when your mama and daddy selling dope, your daddy go to prison, your mama get killed. Your chances of dealing through trauma is much different than if you had a healthy household. I don't want to come across as saying I don't understand what goes on in the inner city community. And this is more about poverty. No, no, what I'm saying is this is more about poverty than race, in my opinion. When I was a cop patrolling poor white neighborhoods, they daddy wasn't there either. And they were committing most of the crime in these poverty stricken neighborhoods. Education was not something that was afforded to some of these people. So it's not necessarily just a race thing, you know. And I want us to get past the point of using it as an excuse to say, cause we're black, we uniquely have these things that are holding us back. And I don't know if that's true, but no.

[Educator or Social Worker]

So I work with students, students with special needs.

[Brandon Tatum]

Right.

[Educator or Social Worker]

And a lot of Times what we say when we have their diagnoses is it's not an excuse as much of it's an explanation. And it's like you, you have a reason or a rationale behind why something exists. And when, when you have that, it's like you have to let that seep into your thinking. And it's like you talk about the music or the movies or the TV shows like, like it ain't, you know, goodfellas and Godfather and Scarface and all these stuff with people who don't look like us, who, you know, we got power and you know, all of that stuff like that cool, we got music. But don't act like we ain't seen Tiger King, you know, or, you know what I'm saying? And they was out there anyway. But what I'm saying is it's like there's microscopic, like examples you can give of all of these things, but if you just look overall with all of the systems, there's never been like an equitable amount of it that goes towards black folks. And I think that for that reason you have to embed that into your thinking. And I think again, your claim is not horribly off, but it's also like without regard to the reality of the whole holistic situation.

[Brandon Tatum]

So can we come to an agreement on this? Is that we both acknowledge all of these things happen. We both acknowledge that it's not like in part of some of the things that have happened in the black community is not necessarily just an excuse, excuses and explanation.

[Audience Member or Debater]

Right.

[Brandon Tatum]

But we do. Do we agree that it does not prevent you from becoming successful and doing those things today?

[Educator or Social Worker]

I think yes. And which is again, the practice that I like to do is a yes. And because I think that there are going to be people who transcend what life is kind of like put in their place. But I think for a lot of folks, like, it's just like if I have a above average ability, like if I'm 6 5, so it's like I have a leg up on somebody who might have also been the same level as I am in basketball or sports or something like that, but because I have height, I have a little bit higher of a chance. Like if I'm somebody who's from a same similar neighborhood with a similar IQ and all of that stuff, but my parents have access to things that these other parents don't, my outcomes are going to be different. And I think that that's like you're saying it's an excuse where it's not, it's not so much of an excuse as it's like. I just want us to be able to have like a. Some people transcend, some people go along with the. You know, like, we have a bell curve. Like, you have the people that's in the standard deviations outside of the mean. But, like, the outcomes over here and the outcomes over here are the ones that we tend to focus on when it's like, there's a lot of people in the middle who really just not getting a fair shake at it because these systems are in place that don't benefit us.

[Brandon Tatum]

Us properly, effectively.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

I think that I have to pause here. It was a great debate, but you have been voted out by the majority. Well done. 3, 2, 1.

[Brandon Tatum]

Hi again. You back?

[S]

I am. So I do want to isolate this cause. You think of black disenfranchisement just over the course of history because. Because the thing I keep hearing you say is culture, right? But in psychology, we have this debate between nature and nurture. Every decision, the patterns that come from different populations can be caused by either one of two things. It's like your material conditions. Okay? This is the culture you're talking about. This is like attitudes, okay. And behavioral patterns. Or it's like genetically, in some way, you are different from other populations. Like, you naturally have less of an inclination towards success. So for black people, I have to ask you, which one is it?

[Brandon Tatum]

No, I definitely don't think black people have less inclination towards success because of some DNA makeup.

[S]

Perfect.

[Brandon Tatum]

Black people do have a DNA, I guess, expression that makes them a lot more proficient in sports. I mean, that's an advantage. But when you're talking about. Your point is very broad, systemic racism, does it affect you today and does it affect your life moving forward? I do not believe.

[S]

So if you believe that nurturing right is the cause. Right. Of black people acting differently. It's not something biological. Here you have to ask, okay. When it comes to culture.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, it can be. It can be, in part biological. Biologically, generational trauma could be biological, but

[S]

that comes from, like, again, social standards. Okay. Issues that are replicated from the material conditions. When I say material conditions, I'm talking about what is around you. What is the infrastructure of your life, okay. What systems are you born into? Okay? So if we can recognize that that right is where the cause is lying. My question to you is gonna be again, where has this equalizer been right, in the whole status quo between white folks and black folks?

[Brandon Tatum]

Let's put it this way. I'm hoping that we can get to a Conclusion of understanding. Because you keep saying black people as if we uniquely are the only people are dealing with certain issues in poverty. Black people, white, poor people experience a lot of similar things as black people,

[S]

but not segregation and not redlining.

[Brandon Tatum]

Redlining. When I just told you. I just told you. When. When you look at the. The historicity of redlining, Majority of the people who were in the redline district were white. Dis.

[S]

Wait for the fact check for this one.

[Brandon Tatum]

92, I'm going tell you right now. No, 92, listen to me. Let me explain it.

[S]

Explicitly a fact.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, it was not explicitly a fact.

[S]

It was. And I can't wait for the fact check to show.

[Brandon Tatum]

I hope they do. When you're talking about the creation of the red line from the HOLO or holc, there's a lot of things in my mind when you look at the delineation line, when they drew the red line, that was after discrimination had already existed.

[S]

And what did the red lines do?

[Brandon Tatum]

The red lines were more of a revelation of what was happening, more so than a demarcation that created because they had already been none of them. Because you haven't looked it up. That's why you haven't looked at it.

[S]

I did a lot of looking up.

[Brandon Tatum]

You didn't do enough. So some of these discriminatory practices by lenders occurred way before there was a red line. The negative effects of redlining affected white people and black people. How about this Disproportionately affecting black people.

[S]

How about this? Let's get back to the cause of black individual strife in America. Okay? I want you to isolate again for me. If it's not biological, where is this culture coming from? How does it happen?

[Brandon Tatum]

It's. It's like, for instance, when you look at. When you look at black culture, 30s, 40s, 50s, was very, very different than today. There was no gangster, hip hop music that was talking about killing and thugging and smashing every day. That didn't exist. Black families were intact at a higher rate. Black entrepreneurship was up. Education was prioritized in the black community. We begin to see that degrade over time. So it's impossible almost to say slavery caused black people to be here. We're not accounting for the explosion of success here in the black community. And I'm saying that the degrading of culture, people falling away from God, not marrying the people they have children with, all of those contributing factors that are perpetuated by black people has caused a lot of the problems that we see

[S]

when we talk about things like Rap music. Okay. When we talk about the hip hop and whatever, what is being talked about in these songs, it's obviously degeneracy. Shooting. Okay. Shootings. Okay. It's like life experiences are what are being discussed. Okay. And when we look at those life experiences, glorifying life experiences, they're much more so being concentrated in black areas. And that was true in the 30s and 40s and 50s.

[Sponsor Voice (Kickoff Credit)]

On.

[Brandon Tatum]

Hold on, hold on.

[S]

I would love to see the statistics.

[Brandon Tatum]

Was there Bloods and crips in the 30s?

[S]

I want to get like three sentences out.

[Educator or Social Worker]

Go ahead.

[Community Member or Debater]

That.

[S]

That's important in this debate. Okay? So once again, 30s, 40s, 50s, there was segregation again. We. We all know this.

[Brandon Tatum]

Black people still persevered through that wasn't even one sentence.

[S]

I got out.

[Brandon Tatum]

You recognize, we gotta. We got.

[Critic of Policing]

We got the time.

[S]

We got time going. And for us to be on the same page, we have to understand the same kind of history. So I didn't get any. Like, there was no statistic that or there's no kind of facts about the wealth in the 30s or 40s, 50s that you gave me. Which. Hold on. Right. What I'm trying to tell you, right, is that this disparity has existed even in those times you're talking about where there wasn't any, you know, expressions of culture that had to do with music. There was still disenfranchisement. There was still a lack of resources. HBCUs were still underfunded in those time periods. And we saw that black people, for the most part, did not have home equity, which is the greatest, that you can essentially create generational wealth. That was all true.

[Brandon Tatum]

But yes, some of what you're saying is true, but I don't think it's the end all be all in success of black people today. Like, for instance, all of the things that you're referring to hundreds of years ago, 60 years ago. I'm asking you right now, do those things that happened then have a profound negative effect on black people? In perpetuity, of course.

[S]

And.

[Historian or Academic]

And I'll tell you, I don't agree.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

I'm not going to stop here. The clock has run out.

[S]

That's why.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

I'm so sorry. Thank you, guys. In the final debate, officer Tatum gets 10 minutes uninterrupted. There's been a lot of conversations here today, Officer Tatum. It's up to you now to choose. Look around. Think carefully. Who would you like to continue the conversation with?

[Brandon Tatum]

God dang it. That's a hard one. It's hard. It's Hard. It's hard. I think I had a few that I would like to finish.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

They all got a lot of energy. They all want to talk.

[Brandon Tatum]

I want the gentleman in the green shirt.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

All right. Do you have a claim?

[Brandon Tatum]

Yes, I do.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

All right.

[Brandon Tatum]

All right. Good to see you again.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

So, Officer Tatum, why have you chosen Trevanti?

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, Cause I think he's acting in good faith. He seemed like an educated guy. We had a spirited debate and I felt like it was fair. So I had plenty of people I would like to finish the conversation with. But. But I think this would be the best one.

[History Teacher]

My surrounded claim is black people do not support Democrats because of welfare.

[Brandon Tatum]

Well, hey, I think we agree on that in part. I don't think black people supported the Democrat party. It's just because of welfare. I think it's because of manipulation. You have not seen a single group of people disproportionately voting for one party in almost the history of this country like black people have. Which I think is a shame. And it's the reason why the black community is devastated the way it is. Because when you sell your soul to one party, they don't have to do anything for you and they haven't done anything for black people. And then once you sell to one side, the other side don't have a vested interest and doing anything to support you because they'll never get your support anyway. I would argue. And my whole premise with this is I'm hopeful that black people will begin to consider their own self interest when they vote outside of party line.

[History Teacher]

So I would like to say it is not a shame. It actually proves that black people are smarter than conservatives give them credit for. Because the fact of the matter is black people. Well, let me ask you this. What year did blacks begin voting en masse for the Democratic Party? Do you know?

[Brandon Tatum]

It began in the 30s and 40s.

[History Teacher]

You're right. Okay, so it began in 1930.

[Brandon Tatum]

It began not as prolific as it is is today, but it began there.

[History Teacher]

So originally, African Americans voted for the Republican Party squarely because of the legislative efforts of Abraham Lincoln. And the Radical Republicans in Congress, they continued to vote for them right up until the New Deal.

[Critic of Policing]

The.

[History Teacher]

The reason why things shifted is because after the Radical Republicans left Congress, the Republican Party stepped back and allowed the Confederacy to make a comeback in the form of the Ku Klux Klan.

[Brandon Tatum]

The Ku Klux Klan was a Democrat.

[History Teacher]

But let me.

[Brandon Tatum]

Military.

[History Teacher]

No, no, no. You.

[Brandon Tatum]

You gotta be very clear. That was the Democrats. I will be clear against Republicans.

[History Teacher]

The federal government Allowed the Ku Klux Klan to stop black people from voting Democrats, stop them from owning homes, stop them from social mobility.

[Brandon Tatum]

That was up Democrat government.

[History Teacher]

I know even. No, no, no. It was Republicans.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, it was not. It was not replicants.

[History Teacher]

No, no, listen. There was a spate of Republican presidencies after Lincoln was assassinated, okay? And guess what? That was when the Klan became stronger and stronger and stronger. And so the thing that they. The talking point that they would always repeat is we freed you now pull yourself up by your bootstraps. But what they didn't realize is that you cannot pull yourself up by your bootstraps traps when you are being terrorized through racial violence by the Ku Klux. And so guess what? One of the things that.

[Brandon Tatum]

Why don't you. Why it was the Democrats.

[History Teacher]

One of the things that Martin Luther King advocated for was the federal government stepping in and he wrote about this and striving toward freedom. He said that they needed to intervene in local situations because local governments were not protecting blacks Democrats from racial violence. No.

[Brandon Tatum]

Democrats. Now let me say the Republican Party was established. Established to combat the Democrat Party from their proliferation of racism, slavery.

[History Teacher]

No. 100% slavery, yes.

[Brandon Tatum]

Slavery, yes.

[History Teacher]

No. But not racism.

[Brandon Tatum]

Later racism and discrimination against blacks. The Ku Klux Klan was established as the military arm of the Democrat Party.

[History Teacher]

No, no, no.

[Brandon Tatum]

Democrats did not unanimously vote for the right for blacks to be free to have citizenship and to vote.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Vote.

[Brandon Tatum]

The Democrats did not. Republicans unanimously voted for that. Am I right? Am I wrong?

[History Teacher]

You're talking about. You're Talking about the 1860s after that Republican Party. They did absolutely. Blacks. So during. During.

[Brandon Tatum]

But why don't you. Why don't you address that? What part that the Republican Party unanimously

[History Teacher]

voted during the 1866.

[Brandon Tatum]

The Republican Party unanimously voted for the

[History Teacher]

Civil Rights act after 16 after Civil

[Brandon Tatum]

Rights act unanimous by Republicans. Not.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Yeah.

[History Teacher]

Because of the efforts of LG lbj.

[Brandon Tatum]

Okay, we have five minutes. What has Democrats done for black people?

[History Teacher]

I. I will tell you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me policy and give me a reason why.

[History Teacher]

I will tell you.

[Brandon Tatum]

A person like me would vote for the Democrats at the current state that they're in now.

[Community Member or Debater]

Right?

[Brandon Tatum]

I'll give you got to explain. We can't do.

[History Teacher]

I know. I will give you.

[Brandon Tatum]

I need you to answer that. I got five minutes.

[History Teacher]

So number one one was underneath Roosevelt. The number.

[Brandon Tatum]

We can't go through this.

[History Teacher]

No.

[Brandon Tatum]

Give me the policy position now that I should go for.

[History Teacher]

Guess what?

[Brandon Tatum]

We're gonna do a whole history lesson underneath Donald Trump's.

[History Teacher]

Donald Trump predict three placed three supreme Court justices on the Supreme Court and they overturned affirmative action in terms of schools. That was created because.

[Brandon Tatum]

Necessary for us to continue in affirmative action.

[History Teacher]

It is 100.

[Brandon Tatum]

Not necessary. This is what holds black people down.

[Educator or Social Worker]

Down.

[History Teacher]

No, we have. That's not true.

[Brandon Tatum]

We have the opportunity.

[History Teacher]

That's not true.

[Brandon Tatum]

To work and do things on our own merit. That is we do not need.

[History Teacher]

I'm going to tell you.

[Brandon Tatum]

Discrimination.

[History Teacher]

I'm going to tell you for us to be successful. That's not discrimination.

[Brandon Tatum]

We're starting to.

[History Teacher]

Not reversing discrimination.

[Educator or Social Worker]

No, we're not.

[Brandon Tatum]

We're starting to discriminate.

[History Teacher]

Then why are there. Why is there such an enormous wealth disparity? If

[Brandon Tatum]

why is there a wealth disparity between Asians and whites? What do you wait.

[History Teacher]

And why people.

[Brandon Tatum]

Asian people make tremendous amount more money than white people on average because of

[History Teacher]

the relationship the United States has.

[Brandon Tatum]

And why do black people. But why do black people. Immigrants who come over here are more educated, they have less crime. All of these statistical data points that immigrants who come over here do better black immigrants than black citizens here.

[History Teacher]

They don't have the history of oppression in this country that we have.

[Brandon Tatum]

What does that tell you? That tell you. It tells you that.

[History Teacher]

It tells you that the thing that is most offensive to white liberals, white conservatives is the descendants of those slaves. Foundational black Americans. Whatever you had actually experiencing social.

[Brandon Tatum]

Let me explain this to you. This is my point being proven. It's not about color. It's about decisions.

[History Teacher]

No. Because it is about color. When it comes to black people in

[Brandon Tatum]

America, a black person can come over here from a foreign country. No. And be very successful. And race that are higher than. And that's not true.

[History Teacher]

Those differences are wildly exaggerated.

[Brandon Tatum]

It's not wildly exaggerated. It is a fact. Because there's no policy in place right now that will stop you from doing anything that white people can do.

[History Teacher]

What do you actually believe that systemic racism is?

[Brandon Tatum]

You're saying there's systems in play or there's a continuation of either systems. Policies that are in place that are disenfranchising black people. Name one of them.

[History Teacher]

So let me explain.

[Brandon Tatum]

Name one. We got to make a quick name.

[History Teacher]

We've already named a number. We've named.

[Brandon Tatum]

What policies. Are you going to be a success? Successful?

[History Teacher]

I. I haven't been stopped from being successful.

[Audience Member or Debater]

Why?

[History Teacher]

Well, if you look at the data.

[Brandon Tatum]

Hold on, let me stop you real quick. We'll get to that, right? No, I. I just want. I just want to do a quick poll. Raise your hand if there's White supremacy have stopped you from being successful in America?

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Second and third generation African American.

[Brandon Tatum]

No, no, no. I'm talking about right now.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Yes.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Keep it, keep it personal.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Some of you can see, others cannot. I have a scar on my knee, on my leg. I was impacted by the healthcare system not supporting black women. When my leg was broke in two places. I was on blood thinners. I couldn't have Tylenol because I'm allergic to Tylenol, couldn't have Advil. They wanted to give me opiums and I refused. I told them I did not want that. I told them I struggle with morphine. Do you have anything else to please provide me? And they refused. They only gave me the opiates and they told me that I had to just go with whatever only to hear from a black doctor two weeks later that I could have just had a muscle relaxer. Those doctors actively chose not to do their research to find a better way for me to go through less pain. They decided they wanted me to experience pain from a broken leg. You wanted me to raw dog all that pain? All that pain on nothing. On nothing.

[Criminal Justice Expert]

Okay. So I used to work as an. An assistant manager at the mall, and I had a white manager, right? There was a huge discrepancy in the count of sales of the hats inside the store. And because I was, for whatever reason, right, the target, they hired trained law enforcement to come and interrogate me under the pretense of first, like, hey, like, how are you doing? Like, how's your, how's your money troubles? How's this? How's that just to. To essentially lock me into a story where I was committing this retail fraud, right? They had at least 40 hours of store footage of me working my shifts where there wasn't a single instance of me stealing anything. But because I'm the only dark skinned black person working in the store, they had someone try to come and frame me for a crime, essentially.

[Community Advocate]

I'm currently getting my MBA from Berkeley Haas. And as a result of Trump's policies removing DEI and such, my scholarship was removed. And this has caused, in addition to his new policies, it has caused a cap on the loans. I'm currently financially struggling because I have to figure out how I'm gonna pay for my next year of school.

[Educator or Social Worker]

Basically, when I was younger, there was an officer at our school who would

[Brandon Tatum]

always kind of interrogate me every day.

[Educator or Social Worker]

I never said anything because unfortunately, what can you say when you're black and alone?

[Brandon Tatum]

You kind of got to go with it and just go about Your day. And the officer was never disciplined.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Financial racism. I'm first generation person to go to college out of my family. I had to fill out the fafsa. I was specifically disproportionately targeted for predatory loans. I got into three colleges. The only college that offered full scholarship, which is in hbcu, the State College, University of South Carolina, specifically targeted me with multiple loans instead of offering scholarships. Later when I started working because I was low income, so I had to continue to make money and also go to college. I had to take on those predatory loans, which then put me behind after I graduated as far as being able to accomplish the next level. Specifically, if you take a look at the way that they finance the loans inside of the United States of America is disproportionately black people have these loans where white people get specific grants. Even though if you look at the actual transcripts and the, I mean, the testing, they're very, very parallel.

[Social Justice Advocate]

I'd just like to say that the idea of us having to explain racism to a black man is absurd.

[History Teacher]

I have experienced discrimination. The reason I responded no to your question was if it held me back. No, it didn't hold me back because I fought against the discrimination, but I was discriminated against. When I was looking for housing, when I was trying to get my master's degree, one guy even told me, it's not because you're black. When I saw a bunch of white people, he did not want to give me housing. I was also targeted by the police multiple occasions. And then two weeks after Donald Trump became president, I was on my lunch break at my job and a white guy drove past me and yelled, white power. He was emboldened because of Trump's rhetoric and that. I've been called the N word, just walking on the street multiple times by white people who feel emboldened by Trump's rhetoric. And so I have struggled against difficult odds, but it hasn't stopped me because there's something inside of me that is determined to succeed. And it's because I want to help people. I want to be that person that I did not have. And so black people have striven against nearly insurmountable odds. That does not mean that there is not systemic racism.

[Educator or Social Worker]

So I actually wasn't gonna respond at first because just like he said, I don't think that it held me back, but I actually had a full EEOC claim that I got fired based off of my race. And it took me years to get like my back pay and everything like that. And the basis was, is that there was like a discrepancy for like $35. And they tried to compare that to somebody at the same job who had did something for like 3,000 and they tried to put us in the same basket. When I just took the 35 on my wallet and tried to be like, oh, like it was a mistake, they fired me for that. But then on top of that I came to find out from my, from my co workers that they had said things like, you know, they needed to staff the store based off of the demographics of the city and that there were too many black people working in there, that it was like driving down the consumerism. So at the end of the day it didn't prevent me from being great. Like I was going to be great, Ray, regardless, you feel me? So that, that wasn't why I wanted to speak up. But it happens, bro. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like it's, it's not, it's not bad to say. I, I don't, you know, I'm gonna just stop because I see bro tripping. So we good?

[Brandon Tatum]

Honest to God truth. I have never experienced systemic racism or anything or racism. I've experienced a person say something racist to me, but it has no material effect on my life. It didn't stop me from doing nothing. Just person said call me the N word while I was a cop. And it, it, I don't think it hurt me for 35, 10 of a second. So I have never had anything racist systemically, systematically that it prevented me from becoming as successful as I am today. Not one thing. Now can I respond to what everybody's saying? I, I think that, I think that what, what we're. When I listen to everybody's statement, there is no unequivocal proof that what happened to you was specifically because the color of your skin. And we are talking about systemic. We're not talking about one offs. You guys are giving, you guys, you guys are giving a scenario. No, no, no. What I'm saying is that the occurrence that you are alluding to seems to be a one off thing. It's not systemic. It's not a system in place.

[Fact Checker or Debater]

Okay.

[Policy Analyst or Researcher]

Evidence.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Okay. All right, Officer Tatum, I'm gonna have to stop you all Santander, I'm gonna have to stop you all here because that's all we have time for. We've tried something new. All right? So we are out of time now. I want to thank you all. You really brought your passion and your energy. I really appreciate you guys so much respect Give yourselves a round of applause.

[Brandon Tatum]

Thank you, guys. I appreciate it.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Really appreciate it. All right, Officer Tatum, I also want to thank you for listening to everyone and being really graceful. I know it's not easy, so I really appreciate that.

[Community Member or Debater]

Thank you.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

Now, it's been a great conversation. Would you be willing to continue this conversation on our podcast?

[Brandon Tatum]

Yes, I would love to.

[Paris Rose (Moderator)]

All right, well, I thank you so much, and I thank you guys in the audience for watching. I'm sure you have a lot of opinions after watching this one, so please let us know in the comments and I'll see you next time.

[Brandon Tatum]

And I would argue, I don't think anybody that I've posed this question to have directly told me that this was proven racism systemically that caused me to have this negative outcome and that it has a negative outcome that affects my success in life.

[Historian or Academic]

A lot of his arguments lacked context, like historical context, and I think it's clear that he needs to read much more.

[History Teacher]

I think the debate went well in the sense that all of the speakers were well prepared and points were made that were very salient. However, I know that we did not change his mind because this is his job. And anytime you bring money into the equation, hearts are hardened and opinions become more inflexible.

[Historian or Academic]

And I think kind of the goal of tokenism and the reason why Trump likes him is not because Trump is not racist, but because Trump needs a token black person to excuse his racism.

[Brandon Tatum]

For the people who are out here watching, I'm just hoping they take away a different perspective from the one they already have. So even those who agree with me, hopefully they listen to others and gain some knowledge from what other people have to say. And people who disagree with me, that they listen to some of the things that I have to say and just be open minded to consider it, that we can be spirited, but we can actually sit down and talk to each other and come to some commonalities.