1 Israeli vs 20 Pro-Palestine (ft. Rudy Rochman) | Surrounded

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Surrounded – Episode 1: 1 Israeli vs 20 Pro-Palestine (ft. Rudy Rochman)

Podcast: Surrounded (Jubilee Media)
Date: April 26, 2026
Host: John Rigolato
Featured Guest: Rudy Rochman (Jewish/Israeli activist)
Main Theme:
This inaugural episode of Surrounded brings together one Israeli Zionist—Rudy Rochman—against a room of 20 pro-Palestinian activists, scholars, and community members. The discussion grapples with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict’s most contentious concepts: genocide, apartheid, Zionism vs. anti-Zionism, indigeneity, historical narratives, and what path—if any—leads forward.

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Episode Overview

Purpose:
To facilitate an unfiltered, high-stakes debate where one pro-Israel guest confronts a diverse group of 20+ pro-Palestinian interlocutors. Each debate round centers on a claim made by Rudy, cycling through topics while unpacking deep-seated assumptions, personal losses, historical grievances, and visions for the future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is Israel Committing Genocide or Apartheid?

(Initial Debate Segment: 02:08–14:39)

• Rudy’s Claim: "Israel is not committing apartheid or genocide."

• Challenged by: Legal scholars, Palestinian doctors, journalists.

• The definition of genocide is debated. The pro-Palestinian legal expert lays out the ICJ’s standards and analogizes to Bosnia (05:35). Rudy distinguishes between genocide (intent to eliminate an entire group) and ethnic cleansing, arguing that though some politicians express problematic intentions, he opposes both and sees no evidence of the collective intent necessary for genocide (06:01).

• Quote:
  "If the intent is to kill a lot of people in order to do ethnic cleansing, which is another thing, which is also problematic. Okay, so you're. So you're saying ethnic cleansing, not genocide." —Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert (05:59)

• Rudy repeatedly expresses sorrow for any Palestinian life lost but is criticized for "belittling" the scale of death by comparing loss figures to the overall population (08:23).

• Notable Exchange:
  "Palestinians are my family, as my cousins... Whenever I see a Palestinian innocent life taken, that is a horrible tragedy." —Rudy (04:58)

2. On Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism

Segment: 22:43–38:06

• Rudy’s Claim: "Anti-Zionism is antisemitism."
• Pushback:
  • Activists and a Jewish anti-Zionist challenge this, distinguishing between criticizing an ideology or government policy and hating Jews as people.
  • "Criticizing a regime is not criticizing identity." —Pro-Palestinian Activist (28:26)
  • Jewish critic Peter Beinart is cited: "Bringing the voice back to why Jews should be against this in the first place and why, when they're not, it creates conditions of antisemitism. I believe your efforts are more antisemitic because you're creating a monolith..." (34:05)
• Definitions Matter: Both sides argue over who gets to define Zionism and anti-Zionism—disagreement stems from competing definitions, not just values.
• Rudy invokes the "three Ds" (demonization, delegitimization, double standards) as diagnostic of antisemitism (35:31).
• Pro-Palestinian debaters emphasize: "When we say we're anti-Zionist, we do not present any hatred toward any Jews... what we're trying to say is we're against what the Israeli government is doing." —Palestinian Doctor (39:28)

3. Who Is Indigenous? Indigeneity and Historical Claims

Segment: 50:03–71:40

• Rudy’s Claim: "Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel."
• Debaters question how "indigeneity" can be invoked when Jews arrived with European support, architectural styles, and often by displacing existing Arab populations.
• DNA, religious, and historical arguments clash, with citations of Canaanite ancestry, Torah stories, and modern geneticists.
• "If an Ashkenazi Jew takes that same DNA test, their DNA comes back entirely European. So talk to me about how you think your people are indigenous." —Palestinian Cultural Critic (67:35)
• Rudy’s explanation blends Biblical genealogy, DNA studies, and civilizational continuity claims, which are hotly contested by others.
• Memorable Quote:
  "To be a Jew is a descendant of an ancient civilization. ... Even if you don't believe in God in the Torah, you're still a Jew." —Rudy (71:40)

4. Is Zionism Colonization or Decolonization?

Segment: 72:29–90:11

• Rudy’s Claim: "Zionism is not colonization, it is decolonization."
• Palestinian and Jewish critics contend that Zionism’s reliance on imperial powers, the drawing of new borders, and erasure of Arab Palestinian towns evidences classic colonial patterns.
• Critics cite the Balfour Declaration, Herzl’s proposals (incl. Uganda/Argentina), Hebraization (turning Arabic town names into Hebrew), and JNF campaigns as forms of erasure.
• Rudy insists Zionism is the Jewish collective reclaiming indigenous rights in the face of layered foreign colonizations—first by Romans, then Byzantines, Ottomans, and British.

5. Paths Forward: One State, Two States—or Something New?

Segment: 91:17–108:47

• In a significant closing segment, Rudy and the Palestinian Doctor engage in a personal, reflective dialogue devoid of grandstanding.
• Both acknowledge traumas, the reality of extremist actors on both sides, and the profound lack of trust. Yet, they also express a shared desire for a vision where both peoples achieve dignity and security.
• "There are bad actors on both sides... I'm identifying the individual bad actors... What you're doing is identifying the bad actors here and saying it's all Israelis and refusing to identify bad actors at all." —Rudy (98:04)
• "We have no problem living with each other, but not with a gun on our head... not when you humiliate me on every checkpoint." —Palestinian Doctor (99:24)
• On potential solutions, both raise the possibilities of a shared/civic state, the need for mutual cultural recognition, and the importance of activism aimed at changing public narratives rather than simply political elites.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Genocide & Civilian Casualties:
  "For the death I started with one person dying. That's Palestinian. Is horrible. Okay, so remember everything that I said. Palestinians are my family. If any Palestinian dies, that's horrible." —Rudy (08:25)

• On Jewish–Palestinian Shared Ancestry:
  "Palestinians are my family, my cousins... We have mostly the same ancestry. We're connected to the same land." —Rudy (04:58)
  "If Jewish people are going through the same, we will be pro Jewish people as well, trust me." —Palestinian Doctor (09:48)

• On the Impasse of Definitions:
  "You're trying to give yourself the right to define what Zionism [is] and you're not giving us the right to define what we mean by being anti Zionist." —Palestinian Doctor (39:28)

• On Visions for the Future:
  "There is no future without our peoples there." —Rudy (91:50) "Palestinians have no problem with peaceful solutions that will guarantee their dignity..." —Palestinian Doctor (108:05) "If you care about Jewish and Israel Israeli safety, you also have to care about Palestinian safety. They're connected." —Jewish Critic of Zionism (110:28)

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Important Timestamps

| Topic/Claim | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------|------------------| | Defining genocide & ethnic cleansing | 02:25–07:34 | | The role of "intent" in genocide | 18:09–21:30 | | Anti-Zionism vs. antisemitism | 22:43–38:06 | | Indigeneity & historical narratives| 50:03–71:40 | | Zionism: colonization or decolonization | 72:29–90:11 | | One-state/visions for the future | 91:17–108:47 |

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Tone & Language

• Authentic, Emotional: The episode frequently oscillates between intellectual debate and deeply personal, often emotional testimonies about family loss, trauma, and lived experience.
• Direct, Sometimes Heated: Exchanges are often passionate and occasionally tense, with accusations of propaganda, lies, and bad faith—yet the latter half softens to nuanced, empathetic conversation.
• Cyclical Definitions: Vocabulary (genocide, apartheid, Zionism, indigeneity, colonization) is fiercely contested, demonstrating that surface agreement is rare and meaning itself is the core of most disagreement.

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Conclusion

This episode of Surrounded confronts some of the most vital and sensitive questions animating the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. While deeply divided on historical interpretation, definitions, and the realities on the ground, both “sides” at times admit to collective pain and a hope that grassroots conversation—not just statecraft—might someday change the calculus. The discussion is a raw, complex manifestation of the conflict itself: cyclical, fraught, fragmented, but not without moments of sincere recognition and aspiration for justice and peace.

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For listeners seeking a deep, unvarnished look at where “debate” meets lived reality in the Israel-Palestine conflict, this episode is essential, if challenging, listening.

Transcript

[Palestinian Activist]

If historical connection and indigeneity alone trumps whatever people are already there, then all

[Rudy Rock]

modern, it's not trump other people, it is not Trump. I'm saying it trumps the idea that we're colonizers and foreign people.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

ICE agents right now are currently being trained by the IOF on the tactics to use against civilian populations. They might have different uniforms, but the ideology is exactly the same.

[Palestinian Doctor]

We always talk about the two solutions, one state solution to it. But most of the Israelis, they're looking for a third solution, which is ethnic cleansing. I don't support getting everyone out of here. That's what they want to do.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

It's been more than two years since October 7, when Hamas attacked Israel, killing over 1,200 innocent people and taking hundreds of hostages. The war that followed has devastated Gaza, killing over 70,000 Palestinians. Peace now rests on a ceasefire that many believe will not hold. So where do we go from here? From Jubilee Media, this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. I'm your host, John Rigolato, and today we are facing the divide head on. I'm here in the center with our featured guest, Rudy.

[Rudy Rock]

How are you doing? I'm good. How are you?

[John Rigolato (Host)]

I'm good. Thanks for being here. Are you ready to jump into the debates?

[Rudy Rock]

Always ready.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

All right, debaters, are we ready to begin? All right, let's get into it.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I'm Rudy Rock.

[Rudy Rock]

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[Palestinian Activist]

photos and we'll take care of the rest.

[Rudy Rock]

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[Palestinian Activist]

you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home

[Rudy Rock]

listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing.

[Palestinian Activist]

It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close

[Rudy Rock]

twice as many deals.

[Palestinian Activist]

When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it.

[Rudy Rock]

Get [e-mail] own the dream. I'm a Jewish and Israel rights activist, and today I'm surrounded by 20 pro Palestinian activists who completely disagree with me. My first surrounded claim is that Israel is not committing apartheid or genocide.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

All right, if you would like to be the first debater, please get to the chair in 3, 2, 1.

[Rudy Rock]

How's it going? Good, how are you?

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

So before I start, I want to lay some groundwork. I want to start with a working definition of genocide, some legal and historical examples, and then I want to demonstrate Israel's intent, their policies of genocide, and then the results. So in terms of a working definition of genocide, it would be to destroy, with the intent to destroy a group in whole or in part, some historical illegal analogies that I think are analogous to the case of Gaza is the case in Bosnia where the Bosnian Serb army killed 8,000 men and boys. This was ruled to be a genocide by the ICJ. Another 30,000 women and children were forced to flee. This was done so to facilitate an ethnic cleansing. So murder under the laws of war to, to motivate a population to be ethnically cleansed in terms of Israel's intent. Benjamin Netanyahu said it plainly and clearly last year under testimony with the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Knesset. He said, we're destroying more and more houses. Sooner or later they'll have nothing to go back to. Our problem right now is just finding a country that's going to take the Palestinian refugees. So they're murdering Palestinians in Gaza en masse to attempt to bring about the demise of the Gaza population, create conditions unfit for human existence by decimating civilian infrastructure, et cetera. Now, in terms of a policy, we can look to the Where's Daddy? Program that's being used by Israeli intelligence through a lavender AI system where they spot what they suspect to be low level Hamas operatives, bomb them when they're at home with their family. So you can't claim Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields when most of what Israel is actually doing is targeting who they suspect to be low level Hamas operatives when they're with their family. This is backed up by the demographic data. Reuters pointed to the fact that over 1300 families, bloodlines have been wiped out in Gaza. Sometimes as much as four generations of Palestinian families are being wiped out. Sometimes as large as 14 members of a Palestinian family is being wiped out. So again, we have policy and then we look to the effects. 65 doctors wrote in the New York Times in a guest opinion essay. Doctors that are observing in Gaza, participating, they're volunteering in Gaza. We don't have international journalists in Gaza. So the extent to which our international testimonies are often from these doctors, paramedics and nurses, what they described.

[Rudy Rock]

So let me. You said a lot of things. Yeah, sure, go for it. So first of all, I'm against the murder of any individual person living in Gaza. I see Palestinians as my family, as my cousins. If I see another individual who's, let's say from America or a Palestinian, I will automatically feel more connected to a Palestinian. We have mostly the same ancestry. We're connected to the same land. And our descendants will be eternally connected to one another. So whenever I see a Palestinian innocent life taken, that is a horrible tragedy. But you got something wrong from the very beginning that genocide is the intent to eliminate a population. Now, you might not be successful. They were not successful in many cases with Nazi Germany, with the Armenians, but it was the intent to try to eliminate the population. Now.

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

So can I ask you then let me, let me. Do you think that the Bosnian Serb army did not commit genocide in Serbia

[Rudy Rock]

or in intent was to eliminate the entire population, then it would be a genocide. If the intent is to kill a lot of people in order to do ethnic cleansing, which is another thing, which is also problematic. Okay, so you're.

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

So you're saying ethnic cleansing, not genocide.

[Rudy Rock]

No, I'm not saying what's going on is ethnic cleansing. I'm saying that there are individual politicians who support the idea of removing politicians.

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

I'm not talking about individual politicians.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm talking about Benjamin AI, which would be ethnic cleansing. And I'm against that.

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

And you agree that the quote I cited earlier would be, I'm the intent for ethnic cleansing. Right.

[Rudy Rock]

The way that you sourced it would be. But I don't think that that's actually what he said.

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

That's from Times of Israel.

[Rudy Rock]

We should fact check it and see the whole entire context.

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

If we find, if we find Times

[Rudy Rock]

of Israel, we find that Bibi Netanyahu has the intent to remove all the Palestinians from Gaza. I am against it. And you would say that would be ethnic cleansing.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Okay.

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

Okay, great.

[Rudy Rock]

So now that we're agreeing that there's a difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide, and that I'm against both, let's talk about the claim of it being genocide. Now, when we look at 2.2 million people living in Gaza and max number is 70,000 by Hamas records, which we know Hamas is constantly lying of how many people are dying for 70,000 people to have died. Also this is in the past two years, there are 5,000 people who are dying from natural causes every year, which is also included the Hamas number, the

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

natural causes Are not included. If natural causes were included. If natural causes were included, Hamas militants. Excess death among youth and among elderly. You don't see that with the demographic data. The demographic data is actually directly from Israeli airstrikes.

[Rudy Rock]

No, no, it's directly from Hamas.

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

It's the Gaza Ministry of Health, which has been reliable.

[Rudy Rock]

Which is Hamas.

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

Okay, so. So they've been reliable.

[Rudy Rock]

In every other armed conflict seeks to kill civilians. Is giving you your information why the Israeli military?

[Pro-Palestinian Legal Expert]

If the Israeli military was operating under the laws of war, they would know how many Palestinian civilians died.

[Rudy Rock]

Why don't they be killed? Only 70,000 to the maximum. That is a small amount of people and very clearly not a genocide.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Really?

[John Rigolato (Host)]

We've got flags up. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Hello. Salam. Shalom.

[Rudy Rock]

How are you?

[Palestinian Doctor]

Come on, Talibu. How are you doing?

[Rudy Rock]

Good.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

How are you?

[Palestinian Doctor]

Very good. For a moment, I wanted to believe that you really wanted peace. For a moment, I really almost believed that you wanted the Palestinians to go back to Palestine. But then when you ridiculed and you belittled 70,000 deaths and you're saying that's just a small percentage for 1.2 million. That is outrageous.

[Rudy Rock]

That is not what I said.

[Palestinian Doctor]

That's what I've heard you saying.

[Rudy Rock]

No, what I said is it's not a genocide. Because if it was a genocide, we'd see the intent and the actual murder of a lot of people. And for the death I started with one person dying. That's Palestinian. Is horrible. Okay, so remember everything that I said. Palestinians are my family. If any Palestinian dies, that's horrible.

[Palestinian Doctor]

See, what we are seeing right now, what we're seeing right now is, and I hope I'm wrong, is a great act. Sadly, we've seen the President and Benjamin Netanyahu going out and saying, we have to buy social media. We have to influence influencers. We have to work on the young Americans and young Westerners so we can win the battle of the public opinion. Unfortunately, that's what I'm seeing right now. You having this soft attitude while serving in the Israeli army, while people were getting killed. I'm a Palestinian. I'm not an anti Semite. I'm a Semite. I'm not anti Jewish. I have so many Jewish friends. But as long as it's legal, I'm going to go out and say every day I'm anti Zionism because I'm anti apartheid, anti genocide, anti ethnic cleansing. You know, the people here are tabled today as pro Palestinians. As if it's something it's given. We're not just pro Palestinians because Palestinians, we're pro equality, justice, we're anti racism. If Jewish people are going through the same, we will be pro Jewish people as well. Trust me.

[Rudy Rock]

So do you condemn the attacks of Jews all around the world, including by Palestinians?

[Palestinian Doctor]

Absolutely. Any innocent person that's been attacked without a justified reason. My faith tells me what is a justified reason. If they're not trying to kill you, if they're not trying to fight you,

[Rudy Rock]

if a Palestinian commits, blows up a bus, is that justified?

[Palestinian Doctor]

You cannot put this.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm just asking because you said justified.

[Palestinian Doctor]

No, when I say when you served in the army.

[Rudy Rock]

Yeah, yeah, but can you answer that real quick?

[Palestinian Doctor]

Absolutely, I can answer that.

[Rudy Rock]

Can you condemn that?

[Palestinian Doctor]

Absolutely. I'm telling you, I condemn the killing of any innocent soul. That's my faith is telling me to do.

[Rudy Rock]

Thank you.

[Palestinian Doctor]

All right, so now when you are trying to say that I am trying to promote peace and justice, why don't you join a movement like Breaking the Silence? Have you heard about them?

[Rudy Rock]

Of course I heard about them.

[Palestinian Doctor]

So why don't you join them? Please.

[Rudy Rock]

So Breaking the Silence is an organization that takes some truths, adds on a lot of lies, and does everything in order to be tokens as Jews and as former soldiers who get paid by foreign entities. Well, there's a new movement of people who aren't the tokens on either side. There's individual Palestinians who are tokens as well, who will sell whatever the Israeli government wants, of individuals who are proud. But you want to see the future

[Palestinian Doctor]

of people coming together.

[Rudy Rock]

You said you're not an anti Semite, but you're an anti Zionist. But does that mean that you're against the idea that might people have a right to live in this land?

[Palestinian Doctor]

I'm against the idea of what Zionism is doing.

[Rudy Rock]

No, Zionism is an idea. I'm asking, are you against the idea that the Jewish people have a right to self determine on their ancestral homeland?

[Palestinian Doctor]

I don't. You know who else did not have a problem? I don't. I just told you.

[Rudy Rock]

Okay. They're not an anti Zionist.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You know who else the current conflict happened. You know who else did not have a problem with Jewish people coming to Palestine?

[Rudy Rock]

A lot of Palestinians.

[Palestinian Doctor]

A lot of Palestinians.

[Rudy Rock]

Amazing.

[Palestinian Doctor]

They open their doors, they open their home.

[Rudy Rock]

Palestinians being able to come home.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Muhammad Hadid, the father of Bela and Jiji Hadid. What is his story? His family opened their doors, their homes for a Jewish family, only to come back and say, you know what? This is our house now. You cannot come back again.

[Rudy Rock]

You won't see me condemning Palestinians as a whole. You won't see me trying to delegitimize or to denigrate.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You keep calling it Yehudah and Samara. You don't even call it Saracen.

[Rudy Rock]

Historically, that region is Jewish.

[Palestinian Doctor]

The way Palestinians were kicked out of their homes, the way a genocide.

[Rudy Rock]

Jews were kicked out.

[Palestinian Doctor]

The way a genocide happened in Deir Yassin. Do you know what Deir Yassin is?

[Rudy Rock]

Of course I know what happened.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You know what happened in Deir Yassin, that's a genocide.

[Rudy Rock]

A genocide would be the intent. Okay. For a population to eliminate another population. What you had in 1948 was a conflict between two peoples where people got kicked out on both sides. And I'm against that.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

We also want to hear from him.

[Rudy Rock]

Of course.

[Palestinian Doctor]

So you know the problem with the claim that, oh, Palestinians left by themselves, they fled.

[Rudy Rock]

I didn't make the point.

[Palestinian Doctor]

That's ridiculous. When people say that, you know what, the government that you're supporting, the army that you're defending. That is what they're saying. They're saying Palestinians left by themselves.

[Rudy Rock]

Some people say that. Some people don't say that.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Believe me, that a lot of people

[Rudy Rock]

are saying that, yeah, there are Palestinians who chose to leave, and there are many Palestinians that were forcefully displaced. There's more nuance we need to add to the conversation. But there are also many Jewish villages that were displaced as well.

[Palestinian Doctor]

That's not what happened.

[Rudy Rock]

That is what happened.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Why were there no more Jews in the Haganah? These are the militias, the terrorist militias that killed so many Palestinians. Those need to reread what happened in Deir Yassin.

[Rudy Rock]

Yes, I know what happened in Deir Essin, and I know it happened in many other communities of Palestinians. And I'm For Palestinians to be able to reunite with Israel. But you're looking at individuals that are in the context of a war and then blaming it on the whole idea of our whole collective having rights to this country.

[Palestinian Doctor]

See, the thing is that you cannot just. If Trump says, I'm not anti immigran, we don't believe him. We look at what happens.

[Rudy Rock]

He's not bringing Trump into the situation.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You have to look at what's happening on the ground. You have to look at what's happening

[Rudy Rock]

in Gaza, our civilization, saying why we're

[Palestinian Doctor]

in a problem, saying that Gaza were given warning to leave their homes before they get bombed.

[Rudy Rock]

This is true.

[Palestinian Doctor]

This is the most Ridiculous thing I've heard.

[Rudy Rock]

Well, I was in Gaza and I saw this happening with my own eyes.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I'm just shocked that you're defending that again and again.

[Rudy Rock]

It's actually what happened. Does that mean what you're saying is okay? No, it's not okay that we were in war, but no, no, it's okay

[Palestinian Doctor]

to say someone, hey, I'm bombing your house tomorrow. Get out of here.

[Rudy Rock]

So let's add some context. If Hamas is shooting rockets from a house that also Palestinian families are living in.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Propaganda.

[Rudy Rock]

This was you saying propaganda to things I witness with my own eyes. Before I witnessed it, I saw proof. Now I witnessed that. You cannot tell me it's propaganda because you were not there during the war in Gaza. And inshallah, one day we will both be able to go back in Gaza, but during the war, you were not there. This is what happened. When Hamas is shooting rockets from a house onto Israeli civilians, targeting Israeli civilians, and Israel warns the Palestinians, the war

[Palestinian Doctor]

did not start in 2000.

[Rudy Rock]

I don't think it started in October.

[Palestinian Doctor]

75 years old.

[Rudy Rock]

And it didn't start in 1948 either.

[Palestinian Doctor]

So the fact that you're pushing tomorrow Palestinians, the fact that you're pushing anybody, not you, I'm not. I'm not about myself. I'm representing Palestine, representing Israel, that's.

[Rudy Rock]

We represent those peoples. But don't say you. You can say they are or Israel is. If something bad is happening, I'm defending

[Palestinian Doctor]

a movement, I'm descending an ideology. And then if.

[Rudy Rock]

If you are for the Palestinians, I'm not seeing you as Hamas. Okay? I'm seeing you as a doctor in front of me, as my cousin in front of me that has a connection to this land. And we need to be able to build together moving forward.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I would love to believe this, but the reality does not let me, doesn't give me a chance to believe what's happened.

[Rudy Rock]

Well, the younger generation has still hearts not so darkened and we will be able to build something better.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

We have to pause here. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Palestinian Doctor]

How's it going?

[Rudy Rock]

Good. How are you?

[Palestinian Doctor]

Good.

[Lebanese Activist]

So I'm actually half Lebanese. And you probably can't tell the reason is because my mom's from Taiwan, which explains why I look like Bruce Lee's gay son. But that's neither here nor there. The first time I was exposed to what Israel was capable of was the summer of 2006, the 33 Day War in Lebanon. There was a firefight that took place between the southern border and northern border of Israel, Lebanon. Hezbollah knocked over, they killed eight IDF soldiers, kidnapped two of them, hoping that they would get four Lebanese prisoners in return. And how did Israel respond? They decided to blanketly carpet bomb the airport highways, blocked the port, civilian infrastructure. One of those was my aunt's home. She's not a Hezbollah member. She doesn't live in a military base. And I also remember at that time, my cousins were vacationing in Lebanon and they told me horror stories about how they were trapped in a basement as hellfires raining on them. There was no electricity because Israel had bombed the power stations there. They had little water and fuel because Israel had shut off the water and fuel supply. Does this sound familiar? And not only that, they had a friend of theirs whose grandmother was being transported from the south to the north in an ambulance, a marked ambulance with the sirens blaring off, to escape the bombing that was going on in the south. And it got blown up, it got attacked. The IDF denied that it happened. So in that war birthed what's known as the Dahya doctrine. Even the IDF general at the time, Eisenkot, had said, we will apply destructive force and it doesn't matter everything. A civilian village is a military base. And this is what we're seeing today in Gaza is the Dahiyya doctrine on steroids. And there is intent to push them out. There wasn't genocide in Gaza because they weren't trying to push out the Lebanese out of Lebanon, but they are doing that in Palest.

[Rudy Rock]

Okay, so even though this is not a conversation about Lebanon, we can talk about that as well, because it's obviously related to Israel. And the PLO were very much so involved during that war and along with Hezbollah and a lot of different issues that was happening in Lebanon. If you want to go into a country that you're about to go to war with, because Hezbollah is constantly shooting rockets onto Israel, attacking Israeli civilians, killing Israelis. So is the PLO with a lot of terrorism hold up, if, if they're doing that at that time. Okay, then the first thing you need to do is to remove the transportation capabilities of the other army, to remove the airports in order to be able to take out Hezbollah and to end the war. What you're all saying of the horrible stuff that happened, that. I'm sorry you had any family member that passed away. Palestinians are my close cousins, but other Arabs are also my cousins. We both descend from Ibrahim, from Ishmael and Itzhak. So we're all family in this region. And it's Horrible what happens to war. The conversation we need to have now is what can we do to remove that and to stop us from happening? Because the consequences.

[Lebanese Activist]

You can stop collectively punishing the civilian population.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Pause here. Their flags are up. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

How's it going?

[Rudy Rock]

Good, how are you?

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

Not bad. Want to talk about your claim, which is that Israel is not committing a genocide in Gaza? Earlier, during one of the previous debaters, you said that the definition of genocide was to eliminate a population. Is that still your definition?

[Rudy Rock]

Correct.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

Okay, so you recognize that that is not the definition of genocide.

[Rudy Rock]

That is partially, mostly the definition of genocide.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

Okay, do you want to know what the full definition of genocide is?

[Rudy Rock]

And you're going to say intent, right?

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

Yeah, of course that's part of it. But that's not the qualm I have. It's the intent to destroy a population in whole or in part. Okay, so you use the evidence of Israel not killing more Palestinians as evidence that it's not a genocid, but the Germans didn't kill every Jewish person. You agree that there was a genocide against the Jewish people.

[Rudy Rock]

Intent of Israel was not to kill in parts of the Palestinians either. That is why it's not a genocide, not evidence, not or in part. Every action that Israel does is to prevent civilians.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

Let me just ask you a question. How do you adjudicate whether a government intends to eliminate, in part or in whole, a population?

[Rudy Rock]

Right. So if every time that there's an attack against a Hamas site, not against a civilian area that doesn't have Hamas, but specifically a Hamas site that is shooting rockets onto Israeli civilians, and Israel does everything to warn the population there, to leave by phone calls, by text messages, by leaflets, sometimes sent 72 hours before. We can see. The intent here is to minimize civilian casualties.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

And just to be clear, so this

[Rudy Rock]

is an example of what Israel does in order to have civilians die at large or as part.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

I understand. Just to be clear, the reason you're saying that is because if they didn't do this, which by the way, this is, it's actually a funny standard that you give to Israel that if they give drop leaflets before bombing somebody, that they are proactive and that they're trying to save civilian life, that's actually required by international law. So it's the bare minimum. And I just want to make clear. I just want to make clear warning people before, if they didn't do that. If they didn't do that, you would say that. Well, clearly that's intent to kill civilians, right?

[Rudy Rock]

Not necessarily. But wait, wait, hold on. Because that's important. There's a firefight, okay? And in the moment, there's no ability to send leaflets or warning and people get killed in the process. Then there are situations where not warning doesn't make it a genocide. So here's an example. When certain situations. I know that, you know, you're college and you're on the media and everything else, but I actually went to war. So there's certain situations that develop live where Hamas pops out of nowhere, starts shooting at IDF soldiers, there's a gunfight. There are people who are civilians who are killed. And that is not a genocide. Because they didn't warn. That's why not warning doesn't make it a genocide either. This is not why he's intent to kill people. It is a genocide.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

I'm assuming that you're talking about when safe zones are bombed. When refugee camps are bombed, lethalists are bombed.

[Rudy Rock]

Safe zones where Hamas entered and then they're no longer safe. Correct.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

Wait. Which shows that Israel's not trying to commit a genocide. Right? If you made that point, that Israel is dropping leaflets, which shows that they're not intending to commit a genocide, supposedly. If they didn't drop leaflets, that would be showing intent to kill. A genocide.

[Rudy Rock]

False. I just explained why that's the case. There are situations that happen. Then your point lies.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

Then your point. I don't know how well versed you are in debate. That's called a fallacy of infallibility.

[Rudy Rock]

That's called conjecture.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

If your position cannot be proven wrong, then it is an illegitimate argument to make.

[Rudy Rock]

No, no, let me finish that point. And Israel, everything that it can, I will give you. Prevent civilian casualties. That is a proof that shows that his intention is not to kill Palestinian civilians. Do Palestinian civilians get.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

I'm going to give you an example.

[Rudy Rock]

No, I'm going to give you an example. No, no.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

You want to finish your point?

[Rudy Rock]

Of course you want to finish your point.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

Because you've interrupted me.

[Rudy Rock]

I let you make your claim.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

Where are do you want to hear? Al Mawasi is an example of a Pause there. We're out of town.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm not going to be able to respond to your point.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

By your own standards. By your own standards.

[Rudy Rock]

By the world standards. By the world standards. They're not.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

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[Rudy Rock]

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[John Rigolato (Host)]

Individual results may vary. Thank you to Kickoff for sponsoring this episode. Let's get back to Surrounded.

[Rudy Rock]

My next surrounded claim is that anti Zionism is anti Semitism.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

If you would like to debate this claim, please get to the chair in three, two, one.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

All of this is to sow chaos and distract from the focal point. We are opposed to an occupation imposed on the occupied people. If I'm opposed to that occupation, I'm opposed to the ideology of that occupation, which is Zionism. Therefore, I'm not against the people that supposedly tie themselves to that identity. I'm against said identity. So if I'm against Zionism, it should be very clear I'm against anyone who supports it, whether they're Jewish or not. Because you mentioned Christian Zionism, you're obviously opposed to that. So am I, because I'm not about this person or that person. If there was a Muslim Zionist, I would be opposed to them. It's the ideology, not the person. And the actual in my opinion, most Zionists are Christians. Christian Zionists, yes, you can go ahead, but all of this is a smokescreen to distract from the flow.

[Rudy Rock]

It's very sad that you have so much pain in your heart and have gone through so much that someone speaking in front of you that actually has compassion and is genuine in front of you have to see it as tactics or that there's an objective or that there's a motive. There isn't. Okay, I see you as my family. Like I've said before, these are not just over and over. These are not talking because we need to hear it over and over and over because we're denying it and rejecting it. And that exists on both sides. I say it to Israelis all the time. I debate Israeli extremists all the time. We need to be extreme. Now, let me explain.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

There's no this extremist or that.

[Rudy Rock]

Anti Buddhism is a form of anti Semitism. Right? There are many ways that someone can be against the population, including the Jews. Hitler wanted to kill all of the Jews. Some Nazis wanted to just kick Jews out. Some Nazis wanted to have Jews there, but just give them different rights. There are different ways of being anti the Jewish people. One of the ways of being anti the Jewish people is to be against the idea and the movement of our right to live in our ancestral home.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

Who determines that right? Why do you have the exception to say, I have a right to do this, I have a right to do that? Like, where does that exception come from?

[Rudy Rock]

Why do you have the indigenous argument of any indigenous people which has been debunked, which is part of the smoke? Not debunked. It's actually been proven. A lot of people even here claimed to be Jewish. And you know, your ancestors are Jews as well from that land. We come from the civilization, both of us. The Jewish people are indigenous. That is the civilization you actually descend from. And you opted out by either converting to Christianity or Islam or Arabized over time the same way,

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

which is not me. My ancestors that I can't speak to. Maybe they were Canaanite, maybe they were this, maybe they were that.

[Rudy Rock]

That doesn't matter. According to genetic studies that have been done over the decades shows that they descend from the Jewish population. And in cities like Yatta, Yafo, Tzfat, Hebron, Shechem, if you go to East Jerusalem, those population of Palestinians is up to 90, 80%. Again, like I said earlier, you can find publications like Nature, American Journal of Human Genetics, studies done by Nebul, by Hammer, by Behar, these are very clearly proven that Palestinians descend from there and so do the Jewish people. If the Jews want to live in their ancestral homeland, that is a form of decolonization movement.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

All of this is a moot point that could be debunked with the 10 second Google someone distracts.

[Rudy Rock]

Google actually gave all the sorts.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

April 2025, the IOF forces made a complete blockade. No food aid, no shelter, nothing getting in to Gaza. There has been 470 people, mainly women and children, that have died from severe malnourishment. And it's expected to be 10,000 of these people who die from severe malnourishment has been declared a famine in Gaza. Famine. There has been journalists. This is the highest amount of journalists that we've ever seen die. 270 journalists have been targeted killed. This is more than we've seen in World War I, World War II, the Civil War, the post 9, 11 wars all combined.

[Rudy Rock]

Okay, you made two points.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

No, no, no. This is. These are my points to say this is what happens under a Zionist regime.

[Rudy Rock]

Okay, so this is what happens during war. If we.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

Look, this is what happens during genocide.

[Rudy Rock]

I'll let you finish your. I let you finish your attack.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

Women. You starve a population.

[Rudy Rock]

I didn't do anything. Okay, don't you.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

I'm sorry.

[Rudy Rock]

The Israeli government, We can talk about the Israeli government right now. It's me and you as human beings that are talking about the situation.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

But you support it.

[Rudy Rock]

No, I don't support people being starved and people dying and you're supporting regime. I understand why things are happening and I'm trying to focus on that in order to change it from happening so that people don't die anymore. Not just using sal. Selecting instances of Palestinian suffering when it fits an agenda in order to manipulate selective starvation. No. Are you talking about the thousands of Palestinians that died in the Syrian civil war? By the hundreds of thousands.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

I'm talking about the people that are in Gaza right now that are not having. They are living in tents.

[Rudy Rock]

Only Palestinians, only Palestinians when it comes to Israel, do like to talk about them. Why don't you talk about other Palestinians that are suffering as well? Let's talk about 197 buildings and the block.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

197 buildings.

[Rudy Rock]

The reason why it was blocked, which I'm not for, is because Hamas was stealing all of that. Yes, yes. Hamas was stealing that food, killing other populations.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

So don't you think you should let more food in instead of blocking it?

[Rudy Rock]

Where's the logic? I think should have been done. Here's a legitimate criticism. Israel created a safe zone. What Israel could have done is to remove the population.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

When they'd come out from the food aid, they'd all be shot in the same place on the same day. The one day people would come in with a shot in their arm. Everybody.

[Rudy Rock]

Because it was a Hamas shooting Palestinians. Trying to get plenty of videos that are happening.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

Guys, Yahoo has already agreed to.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Flags are up. You've been voted out. Hello.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I think criticizing a regime is not criticizing identity. That was a point that was already brought up. But I have a question for you. Do you agree with the current strategy with the Board of Peace in order to bring stability to the Gaza region?

[Rudy Rock]

I don't.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

What are some of the criticisms that you have?

[Rudy Rock]

So first of all, I completely agree with you that criticizing a regime is not anti Semitic. Like I said earlier, I don't know one Israeli that doesn't criticize the Israeli government. That's not anti Semitism. That's not anti Zionism either. When you're against the right for the Jewish people to live there, that's when it becomes anti Semitic. Now when it comes to the Board of Peace and Trump's policies and trying to create the French Rivera in Gaza and all these things, we are on the same page that this is horrible. There should be no imposition of the United States, Qatar, Saudi Arabia or any foreign entity coming into this land. This is the land of the Israelis and the Palestinians. We have to create one civilization for both where we have equality in this land.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

And so it's a democratic state.

[Rudy Rock]

A one state solution. Yes, One civilization. I call because one state applies current political system, which is.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

You don't believe that Jewish or there needs to be a Jewish identity that's central to the governance.

[Rudy Rock]

Of course I do.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

Of Israel. So how could it be a democratic regime if everybody has autonomy and equal rights, if one ethnicity is prioritized over all of them?

[Rudy Rock]

Great question. This is honest conversation. I'm happy we're having it. So first of all, there are non negotiables for the Jews and non negotiables for the Palestinians. For the Palestinians, it's the right of return and freedom from the river to the sea that creates a problem to today's Jewish non negotiables which are full economic, political and military control over the land. Jerusalem is the capital and the Third Temple is built. Now how are you going to have these two things that are non negotiable for both? Well, the idea of Palestinians returning to the land makes a demographic problem and a cultural problem. Today a lot of Palestinians hate Israelis. They wouldn't want to live in Israel.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

That's such an overgeneralization. I have to stop a Lot of Palestinians. Just to say to the camera, what this is advocating for is an ethnostate that prioritizes one particular population.

[Rudy Rock]

No, no, no. Putting words into people's hands. I did not say that there were priorities of individuals. There's a. There's a collective that are indigenous to land. It will be.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

We'll let you continue.

[Rudy Rock]

Let me finish.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I'll actually give the truth to the

[Rudy Rock]

camera as soon as you're done with this bullshit. There are 16 million people Jews in the world. Right? Those are the descendants of two and a half tribes. There are nine and a half tribes that are missing as a part of that number. We were 12 tribes once upon a time. That population today that still identifies a part of the Jewish people are 100 million outside of the 16 million. And half of them want to make aliyah to move to Israel. So we would have 50 million Jews coming back to the land of Israel, Palestinians also returning. A lot of things have to happen before that day happens where we change the culture, we create freedom of speech, which does not exist in Palestinian societies. We change the structure of education. And once we have something that we can both live together, we can have our aspirations together.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

It is just.

[Rudy Rock]

Are you Palestinian?

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

Can I.

[Rudy Rock]

Can I just ask you one question? I want to understand what I'm saying.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I'm not Palestinian.

[Rudy Rock]

No.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

And I don't believe that identity gives credibility to those. No.

[Rudy Rock]

It shows someone speaking as a fan or as a player.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

No, it's not it. Whoa. A fan or a player?

[Rudy Rock]

Are you pro Palestinian or are you Palestinian?

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I don't think that we should view this as a sports game, dude. I'm sorry.

[Rudy Rock]

Sorry to curse. Not a sports game.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I can recognize an atrocity when I

[Rudy Rock]

see it because I believe is October 7th an atrocity.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I. I believe that any innocent life

[Rudy Rock]

that has died is something that is October 7th in atrocity.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

Any innocent life that dies needs to be condemnable.

[Rudy Rock]

So much for recognizing atrocities.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I just said any innocent life that

[Rudy Rock]

dies needs to be an atrocity.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

All I'm saying is it is an insane point to say that being anti Zionism means you're anti Semitic because you're spitting in the face of Jewish voices for Palestine. You're spitting in the face of Jewish voices for peace. All of these are people that recognize their identity as Jewish people that can also call out atrocities when they see it. Because they don't believe that just because they have a shared ethnicity means they need to endorse an ethnostate that is brutally killing people. Indiscriminately they can recognize when they see something that is a human rights failure and advocate against that.

[Rudy Rock]

What I want to make clear real quick.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

And I'll let you speak. I will completely.

[Rudy Rock]

And I'll let you respond after to your next claim. Okay. There are populations within all peoples that turn against their own. Their individual Palestinians.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

Let me finish.

[Rudy Rock]

They are tokens who side with their oppressors in order to try to be accepted in the modern world.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

How is Palestinians oppressing Israelis when Israel's controlling the region?

[Rudy Rock]

Side with the world that hates the Jewish people and hates Israel and are attacking in order to be accepted Military

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

in the Middle east that is backed by the most powerful regime.

[Rudy Rock]

So what do you say? They're supporting also Egypt and they're supporting other places because the intent of the United States is to create conflict in that region and to profit so that you and your country can go and profit over here. Because that money goes straight to US weapon companies, which I'm against. I do not want the involvement.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

We have to pause. We've got flags up. Can you return to your seat?

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

So I want to do something. I want to start with good faith. Okay. This issue gets all of us seated. I can recognize that. Me, myself included. So I'm not trying to do a gotcha. I'm not trying to be offensive. I want to first recognize that you are someone who is separate from the precondition of Israeli rhetoric of never, ever recognizing Palestinian identity or existence. I think you're doing it in a strategic way, but I want to recognize that you have moved the bar a little bit. So. So that's commendable to an extent, but you fail to recognize the pain that's not in front of your face. You say you see your Palestinian comrades, your cousins that are sitting here, but not the ones over there. So your claim was anti Zionism.

[Rudy Rock]

I see the ones there, too.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Okay. Anti Zionism is. I'm gonna make my claim. You said anti Zionism is anti Semitism, but you constantly come back to this idea that people who are anti Zionist don't want Jews to be in Israel. But that's not what anti Zionism is.

[Rudy Rock]

Anti Zionism is.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

I'm not finished with my claim. Anti Zionism is that Jews should not have supremacy when they are there.

[Rudy Rock]

That's not what anti Zionism is.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

And when you're discussing anti Semitism, what I really struggle with. And I want to bring up Peter Beinart. I don't know if you're familiar with him. I am, but he is a Jewish scholar. And I really recognize that he is doing something important, which is bringing the voice back to why Jews should be against this in the first place and why, when they're not, it creates conditions of antisemitism. I believe your efforts are more anti Semitic because you're creating a monolith of the Jews. You are saying Jews are never capable of committing such violence. Jews are always the victim. In the Book of Esther. In the Book of Esther, when Purim. The celebration of Purim. Right. Can we recognize that 75,000 Gentiles were killed by the Jews? Did Jews commit that atrocity? No, they didn't. So this wasn't in the Book of Esther. This didn't happen?

[Rudy Rock]

No, the Jews did not commit.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Because Jews are not capable of committing atrocities.

[Rudy Rock]

Jewish individuals are capable. Of course. What about the collective isn't.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

So Israel is not a Jewish. You just keep saying that Israel is a Jewish collective. It's not.

[Rudy Rock]

Israel is the country of the Jewish people.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Okay.

[Rudy Rock]

Would it be hypothetically capable of doing something wrong? Absolutely. Has it also done other things wrong? Yes. I'm not talking about that. The state is not capable of doing things that are wrong.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Do you recognize that when you say every Israeli criticizes the Israeli government?

[Rudy Rock]

It's to show that criticism is not anti Semitism.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

But here's the issue.

[Rudy Rock]

You're not criticizing, you're demonizing.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

In Israel. In Israel, a Jewish person can say, I don't believe in God. But if you want to be part of the Knesset, you cannot be anti Zionist. So you can't actually question the system from within.

[Rudy Rock]

You cannot question the system. So anti Semitism, there are three Ds in order to recognize them when it comes to Israel. If you demonize the Jewish people, if you delegitimize our existence, and if you're holding a double standard, I'm making an

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

assumption I might be wrong. Every person here looks like they're anti Zionist.

[Rudy Rock]

I'll let you communicate. I'm going to address the actual point, which is the claim that anti Zionism is anti Semitism. If you're trying to delegitimize the Jewish people's right and claim to the land and existence. If you're trying to demonize us and make us seem as monsters and take out all context to make it seem as Israel's the worst thing in the world and now connected to other problems in the world, if you're trying to hold a double standard where you care about some Palestinians, I want Palestinian.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

I want to.

[Rudy Rock]

You are semi.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

I wasn't Going to get passionate. I did. So I'll apologize for that.

[Rudy Rock]

I'll come back when it comes to.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

I want to address that.

[Rudy Rock]

No, I'm not moving forward. I'm finishing the point. Zionism is the idea. This is why definitions are important. Zionism comes towards Zion, which is Jerusalem. And the idea that we have a right to return and self determine on this ancestral homeland. To be against this idea, to be anti Zionism is against the idea that the Jewish people should have a right to self determine that is anti Semitic. Now if you're against certain policies, the government is doing the treatment of Palestinians, the suffering of Palestinians, that is not anti Zionism. That is being pro Palestinian talking. We have to differentiate those points. When I'm saying that anti Zionism is anti Semitism is by defining Zionism. And you know who gets to define Zionism? The Jewish collective, the Jewish people. And if you're going to source me individual Jews that you can hold on a handful who unfortunately, due to the trauma that we face and the generational trauma that has been projected onto our people, then end up siding with an oppressive world that always blames the Jewish people for all problems. That is not a source of reference. There are individual Palestinians who also hate all the Palestinians and they're not the people I'm going to source to talk for the Palestinian people.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

I want to identify something in your claim. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism.

[Rudy Rock]

Yes.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

I'm going to make an assumption that every person around us is an anti Zionist here. Can you identify one anti Semitic rhetoric that someone has said?

[Rudy Rock]

There's delegitimization of our identity, saying, oh no, it was originally the Canaanites, it wasn't the Jews. You guys aren't the real Jews, you guys are converts. All anti Semitic points. Then there's demonization. Oh, you guys are monsters and you kill indiscriminately, you carpet bomb. Then there's holding double standards where you don't care about actual genocides happening in the world. You don't care about Palestinians dying in other cases. You only care about using them when they can be used as Israel. That is called anti Semitism.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

So what you have just done is identify all of the things that everyone has around you has done around you Semitic points. Okay. And you are recognizing that something has been done wrong to you. Can anyone around us say that Rudy is doing something wrong to us? Yes, they can if I did. But they're not putting this label on you that because of that then all your points fail.

[Rudy Rock]

No, I'm not Saying that you have this.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

People are being anti.

[Rudy Rock]

There are points that we agree on.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Flats up. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Let me give it to you. You're a good debater, there is no doubt about that. You've been trained very well to talk about this by yourself. But this is the problem. The problem is that you're trying to give yourself the right to define what Zionism. And you're not giving us the right to define. What do we mean by being anti Zionist. When we say we're anti Zionist, we do not present any hatred toward any Jews or any Jewish people or any community. What we're trying to say we're against what the Israeli government is doing. That's what we mean. So if we're going to try to fight for hours to define what do you mean by Zionism? What do I mean by anti Zionism? What we're trying to say is that the Israeli government, that you're part of it, part of the idf, part of the Israeli community, that you're defending what they're doing. I'm not part of that. We are completely against what this government is doing. You're trying to defend what they're doing in Gaza. You're trying to justify and give excuses. That's outrageous for us. We don't accept that.

[Rudy Rock]

So, doctor, you did something that's very important that I think that we can transcend the conversation is by understanding what we're saying rather than terms. The reason why I'm saying that anti Zionism is anti Semitism is because I'm giving a very specific definition of Zionism, which is the official definition and the definition that historically was and currently is that the Jewish people.

[Palestinian Doctor]

But that's not what we mean.

[Rudy Rock]

Exactly. This is why we need to have a conversation of what do you truly mean when I say I'm a Zionist? I'm not talking about suffering of Palestinians. I want Palestinians to be able to return. I want Palestinians to be able to live. My actions are actually working to that. I work with Palestinian leaders in Gaza and in the west bank to actually change the situation.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You are blaming Palestinians for what's happening with us.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm not blaming Palestinians for what's happening. I blame the US Government for their foreign aid. I blame the British for what they did into our country. And I would like to see us being able to transcend. But what you are doing is so important because everyone who's listening can realize we need to understand what we're actually saying. If you're condemning the suffering of Palestinians, that is not being anti Zionist. And if you are miscommunicating that and Israelis are hearing you saying I'm an anti Zionist, let's ask you what you truly mean by that. And if we mean different things, then let's put those words to the side and actually care about what we mean. What is a future vision that we can live together in this land that

[Palestinian Doctor]

includes both of us, which what the Israeli government is trying to do right now is to push for criminalizing any criticism of the state of Israel, any criticism of the. I don't know.

[Rudy Rock]

One Israeli doesn't criticize the Israeli government.

[Palestinian Doctor]

But Americans are not having that right. See, Americans nowadays are realizing what the Middle Easterns and the Palestinians have been dealing with for the past 75 years, you know, which is the reason there are dictatorships in the Middle east is to protect the state of Israel. Whether you believe it or not.

[Rudy Rock]

That's why there's dictatorship.

[Palestinian Doctor]

That's what people believe.

[Rudy Rock]

So there was no dictatorships before.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You know who's second receiving of American and US aid after Israel?

[Rudy Rock]

Egypt.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Egypt. Why is that? You know why the cease is put in place? Why is that? That's what the people of the Middle east believe.

[Rudy Rock]

Well, we're going to agree on that.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Now Americans, now Americans are coming to realize. Hold on, you're attacking my freedom of speech. You know how many people lost their jobs, lost their school or education because they're criticizing the actions of the government of Israel.

[Rudy Rock]

There's absolutely freedom of speech in Israel, okay? Whether you're Palestinian or Israeli, you have the rights to say what you want. So there is freedom of speech.

[Palestinian Doctor]

It's not the same all over.

[Rudy Rock]

What you're talking about in Gaza where Hamas doesn't allow people to talk or in the military controlled area.

[Palestinian Doctor]

We're trying to define what we're doing by anti Zionism.

[Rudy Rock]

Okay? But I'm not in the US So I'm not here to create that right now that we have to remove all military investments and investments and control of the United States and other European countries into the Middle east because they're the ones who played this to be in

[Palestinian Doctor]

the beginning when he tried to put

[Rudy Rock]

that he was assassinated because he wanted to separate our land, which you would agree that is against that, right? Do you think that we should have two states? We shouldn't divide this land.

[Palestinian Doctor]

The problem is that we always talk about the two solutions. One state solution to. But most of the Israelis, they're looking for a third solution, which is ethnic cleansing. I don't support getting everyone out of here. That's what they want to do.

[Rudy Rock]

And there's a fourth solution where Palestinians also want to ethnically cleanse the Jews. We can talk about extremist opinions on both sides, but the majority of the people. But you believe that there should be one civilization. The reason I don't use one state is because the current political system that we have with the Knesset is completely corrupt and horrible. And we have to create something new. That is a republic that people have a right to depend on, but something new. Do you believe in one civilization for both of our people?

[Palestinian Doctor]

If it's equal rights, yes. If it's fair. If it's just, yes.

[Rudy Rock]

So let's talk about apartheid.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Well, if Palestinians and Jews agree to have a one state solution, it won't

[Rudy Rock]

be a Jewish state, it will be a Jewish state.

[Palestinian Doctor]

So that's. You're asking what I'm looking at my vision for it. It cannot be a Jewish state.

[Rudy Rock]

Why not? What is a Jewish state? That's a problem for you because it's

[Palestinian Doctor]

not a democratic state.

[Rudy Rock]

But it could be both. It could be both, right?

[Palestinian Doctor]

What do you mean?

[Rudy Rock]

Why would it not be a Democrat? To be secular, sure. But you could have also a culture. A Chinese state, a Japanese state is going to be Japanese by its culture.

[Palestinian Doctor]

But a Jewish state will have rights for Jewish people. More than the rights. That's what happens. That's what happened to Palestinians who live under the Israeli rule.

[Rudy Rock]

Those who are living in Israel, they don't have to serve in the army. They don't have to do a lot of things.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Have you talking to them? Have you spoken to any of those people?

[Rudy Rock]

Palestinians who live as Israeli citizens who don't have to serve in the army.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Second or third class citizens.

[Rudy Rock]

They're not second or third party. They are equal citizens.

[Palestinian Doctor]

See, I don't know if you're oblivious or you're lying.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm sorry, I have met

[Palestinian Doctor]

kindly talking softly. But either you're lying or you're oblivious

[Rudy Rock]

or I'm actually someone who lives in this land and I'm getting away from the narrative of just demonizing completely to

[Palestinian Doctor]

see what's happening there.

[Rudy Rock]

Are you in a bubble projection? Maybe.

[Palestinian Doctor]

What do you mean?

[Rudy Rock]

What you're saying brainwashing people have equal rights in the line of Israel.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You're talking out loud and you're denying things that exist.

[Rudy Rock]

No people in Israel, whether you are Palestinian or identify as Israeli, Arab or whatever you identify with, if you're not Jewish, you have equal rights to.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I am having Lunch with people after this who are Israeli citizens, but they're Palestinians.

[Rudy Rock]

And what differences do they have in the rights?

[Palestinian Doctor]

Oh, they talk a lot about how they're mistreated all the time.

[Rudy Rock]

Okay, you said about rights. I disagree with mistreatment. It might be individual cases. We can talk about that. But talk about rights. You said that there are different rights and they're second and third class citizens. What rights are different?

[Palestinian Doctor]

That technicality. They don't have the same protection.

[Rudy Rock]

Of course they have the same protection. What is the different protection? What is the protection I have that an Israeli Arab D. You can sing

[Palestinian Doctor]

and say whatever you want.

[Rudy Rock]

They can sing and say whatever they want. Actually I can't go to the Temple Mount and be able to sing my song. And they're able to, let's say a

[Palestinian Doctor]

Palestinian naqa decide to say, you know what? I support Hamas. Is he allowed to do that? No, he's not.

[Rudy Rock]

I mean you support an organization.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I'm not talking to me. I'm talking as a UN Israeli. You can see that.

[Rudy Rock]

If someone here came to the United States where you're currently living and said I support isis, what do you think would happen to them?

[Palestinian Doctor]

But that's equal for all of them.

[Rudy Rock]

Them what's equal?

[Palestinian Doctor]

Regardless of all of them, regardless of their faith, Regardless of if someone supports

[Rudy Rock]

Hamas, there'll be a problem in.

[Palestinian Doctor]

In Israel, a Jewish could say it differently than a Palestinian. Not the same.

[Rudy Rock]

Yes it is. You know what?

[Palestinian Doctor]

The same.

[Rudy Rock]

If they're actually plotting to do something.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I'm not saying plotting. I saying free nor speech. You mentioned freedom of speech.

[Rudy Rock]

Plenty of Israeli Arabs who openly support Hamas. You can go to Tel Aviv University, you can go to Hebrew University and nothing happens.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Was been put prison because of that. There's so many people they were a

[Rudy Rock]

part or supporting connection because of words. Because of the words that they say.

[Palestinian Doctor]

We'll talk what we're debating here if

[Rudy Rock]

those words is I want to go

[Palestinian Doctor]

Israeli Jews have the same rights as the Palestinian.

[Rudy Rock]

Israeli Palestinians, Israeli Arabs, Israel, they're not. They have the same rights. Absolutely. People who live here, we have to do more than them because we have to serve in the army.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Sorry for giving this example. I don't want to say it, but let's say a certain ethnicity here in America says all of us have the same rights and opportunities. It's not. It's not the case.

[Rudy Rock]

Okay, but why do you keep using examples of other places rather than talking about our own home to make it

[Palestinian Doctor]

about the closer to understand the original

[Rudy Rock]

colonizers White people who took this land, who took black slaves and brought. Because that's what you're talking about. And brought them into the society here. And the relationship between the have. Has nothing to do with peoples who are native to this land together and other people coming in. I am causing us to fight.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Children, what's your ethnic background? Where your parents, grandparents, where did they live?

[Rudy Rock]

My ancestors come from Israel.

[Palestinian Doctor]

No, no. Before.

[Rudy Rock]

After that, when we were displaced from.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Yeah. Where was it?

[Rudy Rock]

Okay. On my mother's side, Morocco and Algeria. My dad's side, Poland and Belgium. That is the displacement that we went through.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You're kind of half.

[Rudy Rock]

Half, yeah.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Palestinian Jews have different rights than someone who never been to Palestine.

[Rudy Rock]

What does that mean? A Palestinian Jew?

[Palestinian Doctor]

A Jewish person who lived in Palestine before the establishment of Israel.

[Rudy Rock]

So today they're Israeli citizens.

[Palestinian Doctor]

What I'm trying to say, there is a big difference between the rights of a Jewish who came from Poland, in Germany, and. And had no connection to the land, someone who lived there all their lives.

[Rudy Rock]

First of all, the Jews that were displaced doesn't mean that they don't come from this land. As Palestinians who are now born second, third generation in Chile, in America and Jordan and other places, they also have a connection to land. We're not going to erase it because they had a displacement by kicking people

[Palestinian Doctor]

out of their homes.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm against kicking people out. We're talking about right now the fact that they had a displacement that doesn't disconnect them from the land. The reality of the matter is you're not considering what's happening. I would appreciate not considering Ashkenazi Jews as foreigners. When the state of Israel was created, every single citizen of that state, whether Jewish or non Jewish.

[Palestinian Doctor]

How do you see the Ethiopian Jews?

[Rudy Rock]

What about the Ethiopian Jews?

[Palestinian Doctor]

How do you see them?

[Rudy Rock]

I see them as my brothers, how

[Palestinian Doctor]

they are being treated.

[Rudy Rock]

Actually, my main project that I'm doing in my life is bringing back the rest of the tribes of Israel in Africa. Not just the Ethiopians, but the Igbos in Nigeria.

[Palestinian Doctor]

That's why we're having a debate. If we agree on everything we're talking about. You came to present the point of view of an Israeli government and the Jewish people.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm not here to present the view of the Israeli government. You're falsely communicated. That's what they did. I'm here to represent my own positions, which many Jews and many Israelis believe in, that we can be able to live together. And the definitions that we have are very, very important. Because you're saying you're not against the right for the Jewish people to self determine on the instructional homeland. Which makes you not an anti Zionist. Which makes me.

[Palestinian Doctor]

No, I am an anti Zionist. That's not what I believe in.

[Rudy Rock]

Different definition.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Exactly.

[Rudy Rock]

And that's why it's important

[Palestinian Doctor]

to make you understand that people who are here,

[Rudy Rock]

should I say out of Palestinian is

[Palestinian Doctor]

no, but I'm defying myself. I'm talking about myself. Everybody here who says I'm anti Zionist, they are anti apartheid, anti genocide, anti ethnic cleansing, anti the brutal treatment of the Israeli government of the Palestinians, anti colonization, anti confiscating of lands, anti all kind of racism and inequality that's happening in Palestine to the Palestinians. That's what we define by saying we are anti Zionism. That is not a racist, that's not anti Semitic. That's nothing that has to do with the Jewish faith. It's all about the actions and the atrocities that the Israeli government is committing. That's what we mean.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm against apartheid, genocide.

[Palestinian Doctor]

So you're an anti Zionist.

[Rudy Rock]

Good job settlement which is not good job. We are proud of you now, which is not taking place there. Okay. And when you are saying that you're an anti Zionist, to be anti something, you have to know what that something is. And as a doctor, as someone who's very intellectual, as someone who who lived in this land, has experience, knows other Jews, you should know that Zionism existed before anti Zionism. And Zionism is the idea that we have a right to self determine that

[Palestinian Doctor]

ancestral homeland the way you and your fellow Jewish and Israeli citizens historically and currently and raise the flag of Zionism. That's what make us say we are anti Zionist.

[Rudy Rock]

No the way that's what's happening. What I'm telling you now I'm here right in front of you, is that Zionism only means the idea that it should have rights to live in this land. And I'm against the suffering of Palestinians on the expense of the all prices. Why are you always blaming the Jews and Israelis as the expense? No, because you see it as a zero sum game. There's a good guy and there's a bad guy. What about the communities of Israel that were destroyed?

[John Rigolato (Host)]

We've got to pause here. We're out of time for this claim. Please return to your seats.

[Rudy Rock]

Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and learn about our associate Degree in nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington. Edu sci. My final surrounded claim is that Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

All right, if you would like to be the first debater, get get to the sea in three, two, one.

[Pro-Palestinian Academic]

Hi, it's nice to meet you.

[Rudy Rock]

Likewise. How are you doing?

[Pro-Palestinian Academic]

Well, yeah. So I'd like to know more about why you believe that and where that comes from.

[Rudy Rock]

Sure. So when I make a claim about the Jewish people, it's never against another population. When I'm saying that the Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel, it's where we come from. If you dig in the land, you find our history. This is the land that our ancestors have come from. We've maintained a constant presence and thankfully we were able to come back to that land freely.

[Pro-Palestinian Academic]

Sure. Would you identify yourself as a Zionist?

[Rudy Rock]

So I'd say that there are many different thought leaders that were involved in the modern political movement called Zionism and that there are many different branches. The right wing Zionism, left wing Zionism, secular Zionism, religious Zionism, even Christian Zionism, which I'm completely against. But the fundamental idea of Zionism, which comes from the word Zion, which means Jerusalem, is the idea that the Jewish people should have a right to self determine on their ancestral homeland of Judea, Israel. So do I believe that the Jews should have a right to come back home? Absolutely I do.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Sure.

[Pro-Palestinian Academic]

So I was also wondering why. Because this is a debate about pro Palestine versus pro Israel. I was also wondering why you believe that indigeneity plays a role in pro Israel like actions.

[Rudy Rock]

For sure. So to define indigeneity first, if the United nations actually defined it for what is widely accepted in academic spaces, which is that your identity is the pre colonial identity that was born and rooted to a particular and specific piece of land that is essential to that people's identity and way of life, they've maintained a constant presence in that land and they collectively identify with this term. And the reason why it's so important to speak about this is because there are a lot of people who claim to be pro Palestinian who use Palestinian struggles in order to try to delegitimize my ancestral connection and my rights to live there. So I'm for the right for other people to live there as well. But when people are trying to delegitimize who I am and the collective that belongs here as well. That's when I have a problem.

[Pro-Palestinian Academic]

Okay, so here's sort of where I'm coming from. From what I understand about indigeneity, it is a concept just like intelligence, love, which means that it can be essentially defined by what it is, but not necessarily. It's more difficult to define what it isn't. My understanding of indigeneity, that it has relation against colonialism also. Similarly, my understanding of Zionism is that especially through settler action, we know that it is a colonial project. So it's very difficult for me to understand how you can be both indigenous and the colonizer.

[Rudy Rock]

So I look Zionism as an anti colonial movement. A movement that the previous colonizers that were here were the British, firstly being the Romans that colonized the land, renamed it to Palestine and kicked out the majority of the Jewish people. Then we have the Byzantine Empire, we have the Caliphates, we have the Ottomans, and eventually we have the British.

[Pro-Palestinian Academic]

Does that have any say on the Jewish Palestinians who exist who are not afforded full citizenship? What happens to them? Because Palestinians are a monolith, which is

[Rudy Rock]

Palestinian, are not receiving full citizenship.

[Pro-Palestinian Academic]

Well, if you're Palestinian, then you don't have full citizenship.

[Rudy Rock]

Right. So we're talking about. Now the culture consequences have happened after the British were here.

[Pro-Palestinian Journalist]

Sure.

[Rudy Rock]

And the way that British colonized.

[Pro-Palestinian Academic]

Do you think that.

[Rudy Rock]

Let me just.

[Pro-Palestinian Academic]

Do you think that their citizenship is a direct action of the British?

[Rudy Rock]

No, I think that the division of the land is a direct consequence of what the British did to our populations. Okay, let me explain where that comes from.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Okay, we have to pause there. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your.

[Rudy Rock]

Just getting good.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Hello.

[Rudy Rock]

Hi, how are you?

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

I'm good, how are you?

[Rudy Rock]

Good, good.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

So I want to start with something I wrote that you said. You said return of the people to the land and indigeneity is pre colonial identity. You were identifying the Jews being indigenous and that's why they were not practicing colonialism. It was pre colonial. Would you agree with how I described your sentiment?

[Rudy Rock]

So the idea that the Jews should have a right to return to their ancestral homeland is a decolonization movement, not a colonization movement. Now we can criticize certain policies the government has, the IDF has, and I might even agree with certain things. There's a lot of criticism that I have of the current structure, but by its nature it is an anti colonial decolonization movement.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

So there are words in Hebrew that were used pre the creation of the state of Israel that mean to settle, to colonize. And they were Used in the correspondence of Ben Gurion, the Lehi. And it was very clear that they were using language. It's to settle, to colonize. If they believed themselves to not be colonizers, why were they directly using this language back then?

[Rudy Rock]

Back then, what that term meant was development of land. So if you read Herzl's writing, he talks about that the native inhabitants are the Jewish people. There are other inhabitants, what we call today as Palestinians who live there and we should live together with them. And the use of the term colonization then, because obviously today it's not a popular word, we're all against this idea. Then meant development of the land. So you have to also understand the context in which words are being used, because words are sounds coming out of

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

our mouths and the meanings. Do you recognize that right now? Because the world, the west has now recognized that colonialism is bad. We are saying, oh, we don't identify with that language. That language meant something back then. And it was used for a particular reason. And it means that you dissociating, you dissociating yourself or Israel dissociating itself from that language does not erase the preconditions that it existed. The plan that it was trying to

[Rudy Rock]

achieve, the plan that it was trying to achieve is to bring back sovereignty to the indigenous population. When you dig in this line, you find Jewish history. This is where we come from. Now there are individuals that use the term colonization because then it was very popular. And it didn't mean mean go and exploit another population, take away their resources, exploit it back to a motherland. That's not what it meant and that's what it means today. And so back then it meant the development of land. We both agree development of land is

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

exactly colonial language and it's being used today.

[Rudy Rock]

If you are an indigenous person and you want to develop your land, that's not colonization. It is colonization or not colonization.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

People existed in that land prior to you going to develop that land.

[Rudy Rock]

They are also the Jews had a constant presence. And I didn't make an argument against.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

The Jews did have a constant.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm not making an argument against. I'm making an argument that the Jews

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Arabs with Christians and they existed.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm all for that coexistence.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

The development meant erasing all of that, erasing their identity of indigeneity as well. It was just Jewish indigenous, just Jewish supremacy.

[Rudy Rock]

This is what I was saying in my previous point, okay? The way that the British colonized every single region is they divided and conquered. We can see the consequence of that between Pakistan and India, we can see that in Afghanistan, we can see that in Nigeria, between the Igbos, the House of Fulani and the Yoruba, we can

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

see that in Israel.

[Rudy Rock]

And we can see that. Absolutely. Where they convinced the Israeli population that Palestinians, the Arabs and Muslims were all their enemies. Hold up. And they convinced the Palestinian Arabs that the Jews were just an extension of European colonialism, which you're falling into. And unfortunately, we fought a war in 1948 for which I was not there. And the consequences of that war and the several wars that happen after is the situation that we're in today.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

So you're saying that the British had a plan of colonization and that Ben Gurion, Herzl and every person or Shamir, the leader of Lehi, who actually reached out to Hitler to work with Hitler to start. You're laughing. Maybe you're not familiar with him.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm very familiar with the Zionist reaching out to the Nazis in order to get them to let the Jews leave so that they wouldn't kill them.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

The leader of lesbians became the prime minister of Israel, had correspondence, reached out to Hitler and asked for my enemy to work with me to take over the land of Palestine. To take over.

[Rudy Rock]

The British were the ones controlling the mandate of Palestine at that time. Exactly.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

The Lehis were willing to work with not.

[Rudy Rock]

No, they were not willing to work. They were trying to get their people out of what was being controlled by the Nazis. If you have a hostage taken by someone that takes a hostage, you're going to negotiate with them to get them out of there. Wait, let me finish my point.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

I just want to ask. You didn't let me finish. You were speaking the entire time.

[Rudy Rock]

You asked the question. And I get to answer. Okay. You talked about the fact that the Zionist had relations in contact with the Nazis. This is true. The Nazis had colonized and not colonized. Occupied.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Exactly.

[Lebanese Activist]

Yes.

[Rudy Rock]

The Nazis had occupied the European area and the Jews were under their authority. So the Zionists wanted to get the Jews out of there so that they

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

wouldn't kill the British in Israel and Palestine.

[Rudy Rock]

Talking about the Nazis in Europe. They had taken control over Europe and the Jews realized that they would be killed. So the Zionists tried to negotiate to get the Jews out. This has nothing to do. You're mixing a whole bunch of.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

You are mixing factors in Palestine.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Sorry, we have to pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

So it sounds like a lot of what you're saying is revisionist history. It's actually so funny that you call Zionism a decolonial movement when you needed the Zionists, needed the sponsor of a colonial empire like the British and today cannot exist without a settler colonial state and an empire like the United States. Without these two things, that project would not have been possible. There's a reason why Theodore Herzl had to petition to the Ottomans, to other European powers until the Balfour Declaration was issued. And if you look at that declaration, out of the 28 articles in there, seven of them focused on the rights of Jews and didn't even mention the word Palestinians. It mentioned the non Jewish population. And with that revisionist history, why do we forget about the Arab revolt in 1936 which the British squashed while they let the Zionists develop their own proto state. They had arms, they had a paramilitary, they had a parliament. Palestinians weren't allowed to have that and if they did, it was squashed. So you can't just say colonization is just words. Logically, that's colonization. There's no one denying that there is a Jewish history in Palestine. No one is saying that Jews can't or shouldn't live there there. But there's a difference between coming and living and coexisting versus coming and drawing borders and maintaining it through guns, through iron walls, which Jabotinsky mentioned. That doesn't sound indigenous. And speaking of indigeneity, if you are so indigenous or you claim to be indigenous, why did they bomb the orange trees in Jaffa? Just as you see the olive trees being burned in the West Bank? And with all of that said as well, why are the houses that were destroyed if you were so decolonial? Why were they destroyed and rebuilt with European style architecture? Why do many Israelis participate in Eurovision? Why do they identify more with Europe? That doesn't sound indigenous to me.

[Rudy Rock]

There's a lot, a lot of questions. Let me try to answer. First of all, salaam alaikum, Rahmatullahu barakatuh. Muhammad, it's nice to meet you. I'm glad to be able to speak.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

You're funny.

[Rudy Rock]

It's the truth. You know, I'm from that land. Okay? We're both actually from this land. And I don't hate you. And the idea of me greeting you, you respectfully is something that is clearly making you laugh because it's uncomfortable or it's new. And I think that.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

No, it doesn't shock.

[Rudy Rock]

Let me finish. I think there's a new generation that's being formed that live in the land, that recognize each other's suffering identity and want to build something further. Now let me be able to answer your question.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

You believe the suffering is parallel.

[Rudy Rock]

I'll let you go off on like three minutes of many different claims. I'm going to try to get back to all of them. There's a lot that you said there. So first of all, why is it a anti colonial decolonization movement? Like we said, the original population, the first peoples of the land are the Hebrews, the Judeans, the Israelites. We were colonized by the Roman Empire. They renamed our land Palestine. It is a foreign term that actually came from the Philistines that were a pre Greek population from the island of Greece, not actually the ancient population that you come from. Because actually most Palestinians descend from Jews that were converted to Christianity and Islam over time. Time mixed in with other Arabs who poured in who created the post colonial identity called Palestinian. Now I see Palestinians as native to the land, as having a right to the land. Now what happens with the British colonizing the area? They forced our peoples to see each other as enemies. And why did they write the Balfour Declaration? They wrote that in order to give the impression to the Arab world, including the local Palestinians to think that the idea of Zionism was an extension of European colonialism. And by the way that you're speaking, they still did their job. And the same way many Israelis or Jews think that all Palestinians, all Muslims, all Arabs are a bunch of terrorists. That would show that the British did their job. Why? Because they appointed Hajimeen Al Husseini the Grand Mufti in Jerusalem who actually met with Hitler, who is great friends.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

That's a diatribe.

[Rudy Rock]

Who was great friends with Hitler. That's a diatribe. This was not a person that was appointed by the Palestinians. This was a person that was appointed by the British.

[Pro-Palestinian Debater]

Why?

[Rudy Rock]

Because they wanted to convince both of our peoples that we were extensions of each other's demise. Not now. Why did Herzl and other individuals reach out to the Ottomans? Because the Ottomans were controlling the land at the time. Of course if there's a colonizer you would try to negotiate to try to get your land back. And when the British eventually took that land, well, they tried to speak with the British. The fact that you can go and criticize certain things that were done wrong during war of orange trees being destroyed or homes being uprooted or a certain style, I mean you're speaking, that's not Warren theft.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

And everything you just said is a.

[Rudy Rock]

Let me finish my, my point that can be debunked in A Google speaking in English. I wouldn't say that because you're speaking in English that you're not from that land. So because a lot of Jews had an experience, a lot of Jews had an experience in Europe and came back which was knowing. I didn't say it's your fault knowing architecture.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

Well, you just knowing architecture because he met with Hitler. No, we have to be blamed for that. No, it makes no sense.

[Rudy Rock]

I did not blame you.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

That's a diet.

[Rudy Rock]

I did not blame you for anything. So why'd you bring it up knowing architecture? Because this is exactly what the British did in order to make the perception of the Jewish people. People being that everyone like Hajimein Husseini supports Hitler and wants to kill Jews. And what I'm saying is that not all Palestinians believe that. And this is what we have to break free. Now, you talked about the architecture. Really. I mean, a lot of the Jews had an experience in Europe, so that was the architecture that they had actually.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

Because that's where they're from.

[Rudy Rock]

That's where they had an experience in. That's where they're from genetically, historically, anthropologically.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

So why they're not allowing DNA tests in Israel?

[Rudy Rock]

They do allow DNA test in Israel. A DNA company called MyHeritage, which is an Israeli company. They don't allow certain companies that go and sell your information. That's the difference. These are anti Semitic points that you read on Reddit or somewhere online. But there are DNA companies that are based in Israel. Look up myheritage. You know, fact check this. There are DNA companies in Israel. There's no problem with doing DNA. And if you do DNA on Ashkenazi Jews, which aren't even the majority of the population of Jews in this land, it is completely descendants from the land of Israel. We had experiences externally, just like you were born in America. The fact that you were born outside, I wouldn't say that you come from anywhere else other than the land that me and you both belong to.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

Ethnically, my parents and grandparents were born in Palestine. My grandfather's cousin's house, two days ago. Do you know what happened to it two days ago? From when we recorded this? It was destroyed by American funded bulldozers on his house. You talk about, oh, there has to be a future with our Palestinian cousins. What future? When you destroy my grandpa's Cousin's house where 24 people were living in that house. Where are they supposed to go now? Tell me, where do you want them to go?

[Rudy Rock]

If you want a future, where do

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

you want them to Go. That is a colonial tactic to destroy a way and uproot it. And then who knows what's going to happen? It'll be rebuilt by someone else. Because that has been the end goal of Zionism, which is to have as few Palestinians as possible with as many Jews as possible.

[Rudy Rock]

That might be the goal of some Zionists. No, that's not. That's not Zionism spectrum.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

Left wing, right wing.

[Rudy Rock]

It's a fascist spectrum. Speaking to me. It's a spectrum of fascism. No, it's a spectrum of decolonization. No, it's any form of decolonization. In any population. There are individuals that are bad individuals. Now, I don't know what happened to your family, and I'm sorry that that happened.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

It's on my Instagram. Anybody could watch it.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Sure.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

So you came and destroyed someone's house. Not you.

[Rudy Rock]

They destroy someone's house. That's a very important thing. Because the whole entire time you're saying, no, it's not exactly. It's not all about me.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

And what you're wearing is not a cultural.

[Rudy Rock]

Our ancestors wore long before Palestinians actually took it from the Iraqi population. We wore a sutra. It wasn't always there.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

And you just added the Hebrew and

[Rudy Rock]

all of that wore sudras for thousands of years. The Druze have it. The Bedouin have it. A lot of Middle Easterners have their Sudra or keffiyeh, different words under different languages. That represents our culture and our connection to this land. Land. And if you were wearing a kaffir, I would see you as a cousin. I would see you as an ally. Not being a cousin, you wouldn't be building walls. Not you.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

People you are defending would not be doing that.

[Rudy Rock]

Talk about destruction of homes. There are two reasons as to why

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

there's no justification for any destruction. There is no justification for occupation. There is no justification.

[Rudy Rock]

It happens for none of it as well. Whenever a house. I don't know your situation, so I'm not going to speak on. On yours. Whenever a house.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

There's thousands more like me.

[Rudy Rock]

Whenever a house is built illegally on a territory that they don't.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

This is a settler narrative. This is a settler narrative.

[Rudy Rock]

Homes have also been destroyed.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

You don't have a right to common state. Who determines who owns what land? Who determines law?

[Rudy Rock]

There's the Palestinian Authority and there's Israeli government.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

Yeah. Which are all byproducts. The United nations, which was created by

[Rudy Rock]

white European colonizers, were to go into the home of another Palestinian and build up a house. That house would get of rid Removed. If a Jew goes into your house.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

That's not what's happening. The house has been there. My been there for generations.

[Rudy Rock]

Jews and Palestinians who build illegally, their house gets removed.

[Anti-Zionist Palestinian Activist]

See, even the term legal.

[Rudy Rock]

Define legal. Another addition, if you morality is not property, do not own the property.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Okay, pause here. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

I like your keffiyeh, Sujor.

[Rudy Rock]

Thank you.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

It's really nice.

[Rudy Rock]

Thank you.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

Taken from my culture.

[Rudy Rock]

Definitely not taken.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

Okay, so can you talk to me about this idea that you have of you being indigenous?

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Sure.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

Do you believe in the Torah?

[Rudy Rock]

Yes.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

Okay, wonderful. So in the Torah it talks about how the Israelites went to the land of Canaan. Do you agree with that?

[Rudy Rock]

Yes.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

And in the Torah it talks about how. How the Israelites shall go to Canaan and slay the people there with the sword and then take over that land. Do you agree with that?

[Rudy Rock]

No.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

Okay, so in the Torah it talks about Abraham who came from the land of Ur, not from the land of Canaan. Canaan is modern day Palestine. So if I, a Palestinian, take a DNA test, which I have, my DNA comes back almost entirely Canaanite. Okay. If an Ashkenazi Jew takes that same DNA test test, their DNA comes back entirely European. So talk to me about how you think this is an indigenous. Your people are indigenous.

[Rudy Rock]

So I love how you brought up the Torah. And so since we're using the Torah, let's go from the beginning. Okay, so you have Noah. Noah who has the ark and has several children. One of those children is called Shem. Shem becomes the father of the Semites. Right. All the Semitic peoples are descendants from Shem. Then there's another son called Ham. Ham has eventually a descendant called Kenaan who was born in Africa. Eventually, the Canaanites descend from Africans who are living at that region. The Canaanites eventually take the land of the descendants of Shem, which are the Hebrews. The descendant of Shem is Ever. The descendants of Ever are the Ivrim, the Hebrews. The Canaanites actually take the land of the Hebrews, which causes the Hebrews to be displaced. That is why Abraham is born in displacement. He's actually the first Zionist. He's the first Jew returning to his ancestral homeland and being able to live there, but doesn't even yet to have control over the land, because the Canaanites still control. Fast forward two generations later to the 12 tribes with Joseph. They end up in Egypt. They spend time in slavery and eventually hold up. And eventually they come Back again to their ancestral indigenous land of the Hebrews that the Canaanites had taken over. And then there are three conditions for the Canaanites. Either you live with the rule of law, you fight us, or you leave. Some left, some decided to live with the rule of law of accepting the seven laws of Noah. No idolatry, no killing, no stealing, killing, no immoral sex act. And those who didn't went into war. So now you talked about DNA. There's no such thing really as Canaanite DNA. They found individuals. Oh, my God. No, no, no. The. The source.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

This is not factual.

[Rudy Rock]

And Jubilee will source all those facts for us and for all the people listening. I let you.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

They're gonna source that there's no such thing as DNA.

[Rudy Rock]

No, I didn't say that.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

There's no such thing as canonite DNA.

[Rudy Rock]

You find it. So can you explain. Yes, let me explain how a DNA

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

test would say that I am canonized, descending from Canaan, where Palestinians are.

[Rudy Rock]

That's exactly what I'm going to answer. When you look into the ground and you find bones, they are assuming that this is not a Hebrew population, that this is a Canaanite population. Why? Because people are using the Torah and saying, oh, before it was the land of the Hebrews, it was Canaanite, but before it was Canaanites, it was the land of the Hebrews. So people are assuming that the DNA found in that area has to be Canaanite Canaanites. Now, it might be that you descend from that population that had come into the land and taken the land of Hebrews and were idolaters and actually horrible people. Right. You have a Samson and Delilah.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

I'm Palestinian, so I'm descendant. Descending from horrible people.

[Rudy Rock]

Yeah, I'm not saying that you're descendant of horrible people. You're intentionally putting words in order to turn.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

What did you just say about my. What did you say about the canonites?

[Rudy Rock]

If you did your DNA, I think your DNA would actually come Jewish. The same way that the Jews who had an experience in Europe comes up Jewish.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

I agree that my ancestors are Jewish. Correct? Correct. So what you are saying that you have a territorial claim to the land of Israel is basically like someone from, let's say, America or a white man from Europe converts to Islam. He converts. He's a Muslim now. And then he says, okay, so in this land, there have been Muslims for generations. I'm going to go to this land. I am Muslim and it is my land now. Okay, so just because you are of a religion does not mean that all of your descendants have that DNA and are from that land. Right? So yes, my ancestors were Jewish. They are my ancestors and they came from that land. I have similar DNA to them. But if someone in Europe is Jewish, that does not suddenly make them indigenous.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm glad that we changed from you being Canaanite to originally being the same descendants of the Jewish people, because that's more accurate. Canonite, Let me explain. To be a Jew is a descendant of an ancient civilization. Even if you don't believe in God in the Torah, you're still a Jew. Okay, for the Torah, what were those people? Hebrews. And in order to become a Jew, you have to go through years of the process of adopting an identity. So they have been Hebrews for years? Yes, Generations. Generations. Thousands of years. Now, the Jews in Europe, which is not the majority of the Jewish people, even in the land of Israel, the Jews who live in Europe had an external experience. They do not. They are not converts from. They are indigenous people who went to Europe.

[Palestinian Cultural Critic]

When does it end, though?

[Rudy Rock]

So if you look at other indigenous populations, Tibetans, Native Americans, when the population comes from. Alex, pause.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

We're out of time and so let's move on. Thank you.

[Rudy Rock]

My next surrounded claim is that Zionism is not colonization, it is decolonization.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

All right, if you would like to be the next debater, get to the chair in three, two, one.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

Rudy, I respect your ability to have a calm demeanor and I think that your patience can do well for an Instagram career. I just don't understand how you can look someone in the face whose family's home has been bulldozed by the IOF and tell him that you see him as a cousin. That is just insane. And I want you to be able to explain to that how you rationalize the incongruity of saying that you are here to protect people that are indigenous and living in the land while whitewashing and carrying water for a genocidal regime.

[Rudy Rock]

So the same way that there are many Palestinians who've killed family members of mine, people of mine, I don't see all Palestinians as responsible for that. So if he's going to criticize a policy that was done against his family, I don't know the particular case that happened is against his family, but it sounds horrible. I can recognize that that's something horrible, horrible and still be able to see him as my family. What you've currently associated is that anyone who is pro Israel and believes that the Jews have a right to self determine must mean that they're Anti Palestinian. And that is what has been plaguing us from being able to move forward. Because I see Palestinians as my family. I support the rights to live in this land as equal citizens of this land.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I want to believe that. I want to believe that those are your genuine feelings. I really do. I'm not going to sit here and criticize your own personal morals or ideology. But what I will say is, is the regime that you are justifying does not believe that they do not see the humanity in the people that they bomb indiscriminately. I've experienced the tactics of the idf, not because I've stepped foot in Israel or Gaza or the west bank, but because ICE agents right now are currently being trained by the IOF on the tactics to use against civilian populations. They might have different uniforms, but the ideology is exactly the same. You permanently call an entire population a security threat. You militarize enforcement, and then you demand that those citizens are detained or removed in order to show the full force of that regime, whether that is Israel or whether that's the United States. So when. When I'm seeing that done to my neighbors domestically, whether that's migrants or citizens that are being killed in the street, or I see that in a Palestinian that is under rubble from Israeli bombs, I feel that sense that I know what humanity looks like. And when I see people who defend Israel tell me to not believe my own eyes. Eyes when I'm watching videos constantly scrolling of babies being murdered. I cannot sit here and say that you believe what you say when you say that Israel is having their best interests in mind.

[Rudy Rock]

Sure. So there's plenty of disagreements that I have with the Israeli government. I don't know one Israeli that doesn't disagree with aspects of the Israeli government. And we can go into those details. You said that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Palestinians. That is not true. Well, we see. That is not kidding me. I let you finish their statement.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I don't know how to allow you to just say lies like this.

[Rudy Rock]

As an Israeli, okay, who served in the army, who was brought back in reserves and was in Gaza, in Lebanon, in Syria, doing my best to prevent us from fighting and to stop this situation from continuing. It is not true. What you're saying. What you saw is Instagram reels. What you saw is videos on YouTube. And yes, there were horrible situations where civilians died. And that's my family. Those are my cousins that have perished due to this conflict. And that's why it gives us a greater responsibility. I'll Let you finish. It gives us a greater responsibility to correct what happened. But Israel does not indiscriminately bombed. It sends leaflets, it calls phones. It does everything that it can to prevent civilians dying. Right.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

How long before they bomb a hospital or how long before they bomb a school?

[Rudy Rock]

72 hours. I've found leaflets there of 72 hours.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

72 hours to leave your roots in communities before we bomb the shit out. That's what you're saying right now.

[Rudy Rock]

Unfortunately, Hamas has used your area in order to fight from there and has stored weapons and are using those weapons to actually, let me tell you, if there are.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

If there are someone that's robbing a bank and they hold up children as human children, shields, I'm going to say that the police shooting through those kids is not something that we can justify.

[Rudy Rock]

No,

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

we're going to be able to be respectful. That's why we have justification to bomb hospitals.

[Rudy Rock]

That is absolutely of being respectful. If we look at the two.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

I said I respect you for it, but I can't do it after you're

[Rudy Rock]

saying this right now, but I'm understanding

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

what your motives are when you say that you worked in the IOF.

[Rudy Rock]

There are over 2 million.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

There are over 2 million. Absolutely not congruent with reality, the population. Let's just hear the propaganda from the population.

[Rudy Rock]

Propaganda projection. Objection.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Palestinian Activist]

I'm going to start off with saying if historical connection and indigenous roots legitimizes trumping sovereignty of nations, then modern borders are meaningless. And if it doesn't, then Zionism is a political movement and we have evidence of this. As Theodore Herzl himself is and was an atheist. We also have quotes coming from Ben Gurion who said we want to expel the Arabs. We also had other people who have referred to Arabs as rocks that needed to be moved throughout the land of Judea. I actually have the name of it right now. Weizmann. I also want to say that we wanted to look at the word of Palestine. I know you were like mentioning that this came from the Romans. Actually, Hereditus, the father of history, mentioned Palestine eight times. It actually comes from a Greek word describing the coast. So this isn't a term that came from the Romans of colonizing. And we actively see Zionism was. Palestine wasn't even the first option. Why did the Zionist six Congress consider Uganda and Argentina? That is a colonial project.

[Rudy Rock]

Okay, so let me answer to those things because you said a lot of things, Herodotus, that you're bringing up is a Greek person. The pre Greek population in Crete were the Palestinians. So obviously the collective that is now the Greek empire would like to call other territories as part of their territory and would call that land Palestine. But the moment that that land really became called Palestine is the moment that the Romans conquered Palestine, which is way I let you finish, I'll let you finish. Way after the Greek empire is the Romans. And in order to insult the memory of the Jews, they called that name Palestin. Why? Because that's actually also a Hebrew word which means invaders. Now I don't consider you to be an invader, but you should know that plishtim Palestinian literally in Hebrew means invaders. Now you talked about colonization, decolonization, indigenous populations on the territory that was the indigenous population being the Hebrews, the Jews, the Israelites that was colonized by different empires. There was never a country that was built on top of it since it was always in the hand of foreign empires until it was revived vibe to being the land of Israel. Now I do support indigenous liberations all across the world. The Tibetans, the Yazidis, the Kurds, the aboriginals. Now there's different types of indigenous liberations. Some populations want a state, some populations don't want a state.

[Palestinian Activist]

So there was a sovereign state of Palestine.

[Rudy Rock]

There was not a sovereign state of Palestine. There was a British mandate of Palestinian. Okay.

[Palestinian Activist]

But there were sovereign states who identified themselves as Palestinians.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Sure.

[Rudy Rock]

I don't have a problem you identifying yourself as Palestinian.

[Palestinian Activist]

So what I'm trying to say is that there were people who actually you don't even need technically under international law, you don't need to have a sovereign state in order for it to qualify as occupation. An occupation can be imposed on people who are not a part of a sovereign state, but of a collective identity who have had, as you said earlier, a continuous presence on that land. I think one of the other people and so did the Canaanites and the people converted to. I don't want to get into that debate. But besides that there are people who have been there continuously. And actually there is plenty of ways to go about this, but there is evidence that prior to 1948 and prior to the creation of the modern day state of Israel, that there's an incredible influx of people who have converted to Judaism. Yes, there is actually from South Africa, multiple people.

[Rudy Rock]

This is not true.

[Palestinian Activist]

After the Jubilee.

[Rudy Rock]

Please fact check.

[Palestinian Activist]

They will fact check. And it's written in Haaretz that they.

[Rudy Rock]

After you see an anti Israel publication that posts an Article. You read an article and you believe it.

[Palestinian Activist]

I don't want to get into. I don't want to get into ad hominem. Let's focus on the facts. And to my knowledge it is true and it has been documented pretty well that after the fall of a South African apartheid state that people converted to Judaism and suddenly had a more legitimate claim.

[Rudy Rock]

The fall of the apartheid state happened way after the creation of the state of Israel. What are you talking about?

[Palestinian Activist]

But I'm just saying that there's an influx of people that came and converted to the state anyways.

[Rudy Rock]

I want Jews who are returning home. They're not Jews who are converting into the Middle East.

[Palestinian Activist]

So why don't we have the Palestinian right to return?

[Rudy Rock]

Right for that right to return.

[Palestinian Activist]

But how come it hasn't happened? And if we had a Palestinian majority?

[Rudy Rock]

I don't think that's a great question why it hasn't happened. The reason it hasn't happened is because my population and your population are raised to see each other as enemies. And when we have conversations, it's always the idea of Jewish indigeneity and our access to the land and our liberation means the destruction of yours. And I'm against the destruction of your people. I'm for the idea of your population.

[Palestinian Activist]

Zionism's earliest founders. And it has been documented. If they're all about, you know, returning back, back home, why is every single one of their writing about colonialism? Yes, it is.

[Rudy Rock]

You could look at Herzl and other individuals spoke about creating a civilization with the other inhabitants who were living there.

[Palestinian Activist]

Recognize my point about Uganda and Argentina. If Palestine, if Palestine. Palestine was not the only option. Which goes to show that this is a colonial project because they considered other states despite not having as strong of a religious claim.

[Rudy Rock]

That's. Thank you for reminding me. The third claim that you made originally. So there were other options. It wasn't just Uganda. It was Argentina, Birobidzhan, Angola and Madagascar. And this is what the world offered to the Jews, not what the Jews wanted. The Jews always wanted to go to Jerusalem. That's why we pray towards Jerusalem when we get married. Where does. I'll answer that after. When we smash the glass in our weddings. Right. I'm sure a lot of you have seen movies or have been to a Jewish wedding. It represents the destruction of Jerusalem and the promise that our kids will return back home and rebuild Jerusalem. Now Uganda was proposed, opposed to the Jews by Herzl. He said, look, I know we're being killed right now in Europe and we're about to be killed even more if we don't get to our land right now. At least we'll go to Uganda and then we'll go to Israel. And the Jews rejected that. This was imposed by other people, not by what we wanted. Zion is in Yerushalayus Salem, which means to see peace. One day we will have peace in this land.

[Palestinian Activist]

Hebrew means in the Canaanite language from and then like Shalayim is the Canaanite God of dusk. And that name has been around for centuries, 6,000 years.

[Rudy Rock]

It's also Hebrew Yeru, you will see and Shalem Salom being peace.

[Palestinian Activist]

Actually, the Hebrew language, Ben Yehuda, the father of modern day Hebrew language, actually took many words from Arabic to revive that language. Because it has been dead for so many years.

[Rudy Rock]

We were still using Hebrew. It was continuous existence. There was continuous existence. No, that's the spoken language. There was Ladino, there were Judeo, Arabic, there were other creoles spoken day to day. But we learned the Torah, we learned Talmud. All of our texts are in Hebrew.

[Palestinian Activist]

To judify the landscape by planting non indigenous trees all throughout Palestine.

[Rudy Rock]

So is judifying planting something non indigenous?

[Palestinian Activist]

No, no, no. I'm saying this is according to the jnf. They judified the landscape. They took committees to go around the Arabic villages of the names and give them Hebrew equivalent names. The same way Benjamin Netanyahu changed his last name from Milachowski to Netanyahu.

[Rudy Rock]

Because Last names are 200 years old. Last names are the past 200 years. We did not have last names before. It was your name, son of your father and of your children. And there are other Middle Eastern peoples who have very similar culture to that last name are newly tribes.

[Palestinian Activist]

So why did he go from Milakowski to Netanyahu? Why did they change village name and give them Hebrew equivalent names? With the modern Hebrew, which is from

[Rudy Rock]

Arabic, to revive, we revived the name of Israel. Like for example, Nablus.

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

Right?

[Rudy Rock]

You know what Nablus comes from? It comes from Neopolis, which is Greek and Latin, which means new city that the Romans renamed Ar Shechem, which was the indigenous name to Neopolis. So why are you, when you have certain territories like Al Quds going back to Jerusalem, which actually is called Jerusalem, or Safed, going back to Tzfat, which is the original name, were actually returning

[Palestinian Activist]

back to the language. They actually hired a committee and they

[Rudy Rock]

were in the language that your ancestors. They spoke Hebrew. Hold on.

[Palestinian Activist]

They spoke Aramaic as well. I'm going to also after he Wrote. Okay, can I get to my point?

[Rudy Rock]

When they went to Babylon, why would

[Palestinian Activist]

they hire a committee to judify the names of the town if they had such a legitimate claim to it and take the equivalent Arabic names and then give it it.

[Rudy Rock]

So you're saying that the Arabs decolonize the name of the land.

[Palestinian Activist]

Are you saying that the Arabs are colonizers right now?

[Rudy Rock]

Colonized the entire Middle east and North Africa. You do not descend from the Arabs. You descend from the same family.

[Palestinian Activist]

I would rather you not tell me. Okay. I would rather you not tell me where I come from.

[Rudy Rock]

Are you going to deny that?

[Palestinian Activist]

No, I'm not going to. I just don't want to go into that. I'd rather focus on.

[Rudy Rock]

Because all of a sudden focus on

[Palestinian Activist]

the fact that you're going into ad hominem instead of logic.

[Rudy Rock]

Ad hominem would be an attack. I'm not attacking you.

[Palestinian Activist]

Let's vote. So we're talking about how they had specific committees to try and then why

[Rudy Rock]

would they plant decolonize the names of the why.

[Palestinian Activist]

Okay, so you're saying that the Palestinians who had lived there. Because you're denying the nakba right now because the Palestinians lived and called these their homes. Was a home.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm not denying the suspect.

[Palestinian Activist]

I'm really glad that you're doing that. So Tantura and multiple other cities all throughout Palestine that the people resonated with when they were forcibly displaced as you know, 750,000 of them.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Them.

[Palestinian Activist]

Why is it that they built cities on top of them and gave them Hebrew equivalent names to the Arab? I don't call that decolonization. That is textbook colonization and trying to legitimize whatever false claim that comes from Theodore Herzl and the entire rest of his group. And I'd also.

[Rudy Rock]

Let me answer one more thing. I have one. We said one at a time. Please remember it.

[Palestinian Activist]

They marketed Jaffa as the land with no people for the people with no land. But this land was abundant with people. And Palestinians had have consistently been present. The Palestinian identity goes way back as well.

[Rudy Rock]

I believe you should have a right to live in this land. And if we look at what happened in 1948, there were Jewish villages and Palestinian villages that were destroyed. That is what happens during war. Now, all the Palestinian villages that were destroyed were Palestinian villages that sided with the other Arab armies from the surrounding nations around Israel that attacked Israel in 1948 to ethnically cleanse and destroy Israel, bringing all the Jews from the river and into the sea. There are many Jewish villages That were destroyed as well. Most of the village was civilians. Where Innocent. Innocent. So many people were displaced that shouldn't have been displaced. Now we need to have a conversation of how to bring them back. But you're only talking about when Palestinians are suffering to war. I'm talking about when both are suffering to war. And when you take the names of Arabs. Arabs are from Arabia. Right. Jews are from Judea. It's very simple. Arabic language poured into that land. Arabic names poured into that land.

[Palestinian Activist]

Can I.

[Rudy Rock]

Is not from the land of Israel. 1940, 48th Israel was attacked by all the surrounding Arab countries from Jordan, Lebanon.

[Palestinian Activist]

Prior to Israel's existence.

[Rudy Rock]

Yeah. There were many confrontations that we had between our peoples. Like in the 1930s and 1930s.

[Palestinian Activist]

Okay.

[Rudy Rock]

I'd rather look at the Hebron massacre where Hajime Al Hosseini incited the population of Taliban to go and kill the Jews.

[Palestinian Activist]

Let's look at Palestine present. Palestine proper, whatever you want to call it.

[Rudy Rock]

The British Palestine, Israel.

[Palestinian Activist]

It's fine.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

Okay.

[Palestinian Activist]

No, no. From 1948. From prior to 1948.

[Rudy Rock]

Yeah.

[Palestinian Activist]

People live there and were forcibly displaced by a foreign entity that I view it as differently.

[Rudy Rock]

I think that they are the Jews foreign.

[Palestinian Activist]

I think that there is a Jewish connection to that land. And I don't think that.

[Rudy Rock]

So they cannot be foreign.

[Palestinian Activist]

But here's the thing. I said this earlier. If historical connection and indigeneity alone trumps whatever people are already there, then all

[Rudy Rock]

modern does not trump other people. It just trumps you. I'm just saying. I don't call it foreign. I'm saying it trumps the idea that we're colonizers and foreign people. And because you see me as a foreigner and other Israelis see me as a foreigner. Why did El Hait.

[Palestinian Activist]

A geneticist from John Hopkins says that not a majority of the Jewish people in Israel do not have a connection to the Middle East. And I really hope I'm fact checked on this. His name is El Haik. And he goes. He's from John Hopkins and is an Israeli geneticist.

[Rudy Rock]

There are many geneticists that show that actually the Jews descend from this land. And Palestinians. We can go. 60% of Palestinian genetics show that they descend from Jews. You can find. You can find publications hold up in Nature, in the American Journal of Human Genetics. You can find the scientists like Nebul, Hammer and Behar. I suggest everyone looks at it and you can see that 60% of Palestinians descend from Jews. And if you go to places like East Jerusalem, places that are ancient Jewish

[Palestinian Activist]

towns,

[Rudy Rock]

let's look at how the people

[Palestinian Activist]

in Hebron are being treated. They are actively being caged in by the illegal settlers on that land have their doors.

[Rudy Rock]

You go to Hebron. The majority of Hebron is controlled by the Palestinians. The minority of Hebron is they are

[Palestinian Activist]

under a military occupation. That is illegal. It was supposed to be temporary, but it's been made permanent. And then settlers are emboldened.

[Rudy Rock]

So it's not illegal because it hasn't ended. But it needs to end that on that were agreed upon. I don't want the IDF to be controlling of people that don't have a rights to vote for that army.

[Palestinian Activist]

So wait, are you saying that the settlements are illegal or not?

[Rudy Rock]

No, I'm saying that Jewish villages are not settlement settlements.

[Palestinian Activist]

They are. They are even referred to Daniela White settlements. Daniela White even refers to herself as

[Rudy Rock]

a settler source you other individuals who say bad things that are Palestinian.

[Palestinian Activist]

The US government in majority of its communications the US government in this is the statistics.

[Rudy Rock]

So let me answer you and them. Settlements are built by settlers. Settlers are foreigners. Jews come from Judea. We are not the foreign population.

[Palestinian Activist]

I don't agree with an American population.

[Rudy Rock]

They're not just conversation.

[Palestinian Activist]

Some of them do.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm not a very small percentage of

[Palestinian Activist]

them do and have a take over the land.

[Rudy Rock]

Each indigenous populations controls their culture in a different way. The way the Jewish indigenous civilization controls itself is if you go through this many year process of adopting an identity, a history, a culture, a value system, tradition, you are now part of the collective. It is not individuals that are indigenous, it is collectives.

[Palestinian Activist]

So with collective identity that agree that they want to colonize illegally. We don't want to colonize.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

We're out of time. Thank you.

[Rudy Rock]

Amazon presents Jeff vs. Taco Truck Salsa. Whether it's verde roja or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea and milk. Habanero. More like habanero. Yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. We all want to know what makes people tick.

[Palestinian Activist]

How will they make decisions, handle feedback

[Rudy Rock]

and work as a team. The predictive index behavioral assessment reveals how employees actually think work and think thrive. Like how Marcus fits in a role with structure.

[Lebanese Activist]

And Margo's strength is collaborating with others.

[Rudy Rock]

Because when we understand each other, work just works. Take the behavioral assessment [e-mail] index.com okay,

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Rudy, we're down to the final section where you will look around the circle. Choose somebody who either you thought you had a really good conversation with earlier and you want to pick back up with or somebody you haven't got to speak to. So look around the circle. Select your person that you want to debate for the final 10 minutes.

[Rudy Rock]

First of all, thank you all for coming. I wish I can continue the conversation with all of you, but I'm going to pick the doctor to continue having the conversation.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Rudy, can you tell us why you chose the doctor to debate for the final section?

[Rudy Rock]

Of course. I think a lot of times our populations are conditioned to seeing each other as enemies. I don't think you see me as an enemy enemy. And I'd like to have a conversation forward of how our peoples can be able to come together. You have a very kind spirit about you. You're genuine. You're someone who's connected to the land. And I believe you care about the peoples in that land. So I would like to speak about how we can move forward on that territory, because there's no future without our peoples there.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Mahsaran claim that with the current situations, we don't see a genuine desire among Israelis to achieve peace.

[Rudy Rock]

So I agree that the Israeli government is doing nothing to change the current status quo and benefits from that status quo politically, politically, economically. And in many ways, this is a critique that I have openly in Israel towards the government, towards extremist voices, which to me are embarrassing. The things that they're saying, like Ben GVIR and Smoltridge, that are going and talking about ethnic cleansing. This is horrible and not what our culture has to be. And I always tell Israelis that the biggest win of Hamas is not how many Israelis they killed. It's how many Israelis they turned to being just like them, hateful of an entire population.

[Palestinian Doctor]

It's sad to think and this game, we can go back and forth and play the chicken and the egg. Who caused the Israelis to become pro genocide, pro ethnic cleansing is Hamas is causing that. Hamas just started 1986. And we have to understand that the actions of the Israeli governments, the actions of discrimination and apartheid is what is causing us to have these conflicts and fights between each other. You have the power. You have the military, you have the money. You have the support of the whole Western world, for God's sake, you can do something different about what's happening there. We are tied. We are stuck in the corner. Our kids are being killed right and left. Our homes are being destroyed. You know what? If all what I have is just to throw a little rock at you, you have to understand where that's coming From.

[Rudy Rock]

I understand. And I never made the claim that the Israeli hate towards Palestinians that exist comes from Hamas, that has existed since 1948, from the conflicts that we have, even from the Hebron Massacre in 1929. I actually go to the British that divided our people. That's where it's sourced. Not me or not you. But there are ways to move forward. Now you called Israel an apartheid. An apartheid is one country, one state, one civilization with different rights for different peoples. Those who are living in Israel have equal rights. There's another territory called the West Bank, Judea and Samaria, which has a different jurisdiction, a large prison, just different jurisdiction. Gaza has different jurisdictions. Wait, wait. I'm against the division of this land. I want to see this land united. But that's actually the opposite of an apartheid because an apartheid would be one country with different rights for different people. Now we're talking about different territories, different jurisdictions. I don't have a rights there, they don't have a rights here. It's bad, but it's not an apartment. Apartheid. Now you said something, I actually agree with you. We have the power. With that power comes the responsibility. And this is something that every Jew, every Israeli, every Zionist should listen. We have the power to correct the problems of our Palestinian family and our cousins. And we talk about Tikkun Olam and Olaguim, healing the world and empowering other nations. What we need to do, we need to kill our own actions with our own cousins.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Criminalizing free speech, pushing.

[Rudy Rock]

That's not in Israel, that's in A America, you're saying?

[Palestinian Doctor]

Yeah, but APAC is an extension of what's. That's good, good to know.

[Rudy Rock]

Yeah. I'm not for America getting involved in the Middle East. I'm not for that.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Now if you, if you, you, you mentioned earlier about the, the division between the west bank areas. Area A, Area B, Area C. Correct. You served in the army. Right. It's, it's really. Do you think that's, that's they have the full freedom to do whatever they want in area A?

[Rudy Rock]

They don't have the full freedom to do it.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Look, it's just few miles, miles of distance. People cannot drive out of these areas.

[Rudy Rock]

Absolutely.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Young people are losing hope. What do you expect from a 20 year old boy or a 20 year old young man who has no hope to get married, no hope to get a job, to get. What do you expect?

[Rudy Rock]

No, I understand that. That's why when I look at Israelis who become extremists, Palestinians who become extremists, I understand where it's coming from.

[Palestinian Doctor]

And what are you doing about the settlers? Enough of us who in just few

[Rudy Rock]

months we're going to address the Jews in Judea and Samara. But just as there are extremist individuals, there are people like us who don't

[Palestinian Doctor]

hate one another so long you keep rejecting and refusing to use the word Palestine.

[Rudy Rock]

I don't reject the word Palestine.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You keep saying Judea and Sam's. You keep saying that.

[Rudy Rock]

I mean that territory has been historically,

[Palestinian Doctor]

you have to understand people's. I'm telling you that psychologically if you wanted to achieve peace, if you want to achieve real justice, you have to also understand what your words, how powerful they are. When you keep saying Judea and Samaritan, Judea and Sam. You know what? This is what people call Palestine. This is what people call homes.

[Rudy Rock]

Every time I say, every time I say West Bank, Judea and Samaritan. Because Judea and Samaira is not talking about the entirety of what is Israel, Palestine. It is specifically what is today the

[Palestinian Doctor]

west bank is implying when you use those terms. But this is what happens in the Palestinian.

[Rudy Rock]

Where's the word west bank come from? It's the British that used that term.

[Palestinian Doctor]

It's a common term originally was called Jews Palestinians. Gets in mind when you keep using those terms like okay, we're next, they're going to come and take us, take us out. That's what comes in the mind when

[Rudy Rock]

Jews hear the term Palestine. They think, oh, you're trying to erase us. This is where we need to be able to accept each other's identity. Identity. I'm a Jew, I'm a Hebrew, I'm an Israelite. This land has historically to my people been called Israel slash Judean, Samaritan.

[Palestinian Doctor]

But I'm not louder than my emotions,

[Rudy Rock]

not my actions, other people's actions.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You accepted to serve in the army.

[Rudy Rock]

That's causing so much to serve in the army.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Well, so many soldiers, so many soldiers are rejecting. And that's bravery. That's bravery.

[Rudy Rock]

I served in the army proudly. You don't have a weak Jew in front of you. You have a proud Dane warrior and

[Palestinian Doctor]

front of you to be proud of a machine that's killing people right now, who sends them a little text message,

[Rudy Rock]

get out of your house.

[Palestinian Doctor]

That's proud.

[Rudy Rock]

Condemn certain actions, certain policies, certain things that they do because I'm an individual first before anything else. And when there are countries all around that have constantly attacked and tried to kill our people, without an IDF we would not exist.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You're the one who started.

[Rudy Rock]

No, we're not. I mean, didn't you say we shouldn't be pointing at who started the chicken or the egg?

[Palestinian Doctor]

No. And now you're saying that's what we argue. Now you're saying that these countries are coming to attack you. Imagine if a foreign country come and invaded California, you expect Texas, Israelis are invaders. The Israeli arms invaded Palestine.

[Rudy Rock]

Invaders, Absolutely. We're the indigenous people that came back to our land.

[Palestinian Doctor]

When they came peacefully, we opened our doors for them.

[Rudy Rock]

I'm sure. But when they came in 1929, it was so peaceful.

[Palestinian Doctor]

When they came peacefully, when they said, okay, want to live here, Open the doors. When you start showing the. When you shot, you start showing the intentions, when you brought the weapons and you start killing people, that's what people attacked.

[Rudy Rock]

See, the difference in this conversation is that there are bad actors on both sides. I'm identifying the individual bad actors on this right side, identifying the bad actors on the Palestinian side and saying, do not attach these bad actors to all Palestinians. What you're doing is identifying the bad actors here and saying it's all Israelis and refusing to identify bad actors at all.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I said majority. They came on the borders of Gaza.

[Rudy Rock]

That's horrible to say.

[Palestinian Doctor]

And they're cheating the things that teaching death to Arabs, right and left.

[Rudy Rock]

It's a minority of the population. It's a great minority. It should be zero.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Is Israel a democratic state?

[Rudy Rock]

Yes.

[Palestinian Doctor]

So why would a minority be able to control the actions of the government?

[Rudy Rock]

Great question. This is the majority of parliamentary system government where you have all these different parties and in order to have power, you need to have over 60 seats out of 120. 20 seats in order to have the majority. You don't have a 60s party seat, you have a 20, you have a five, you have a two. And the majority is very small. So then a party with two seats that is a minority has the ability to find that how to believe the reality of the political system. That's how we got to change this Things that all the others speak for Netanyahu. There's plenty of criticism that I have in Netanyahu. Okay, we can talk about Netanyahu and Ben Villa Smoltic and bad actors and bad individuals. What I'm talking about is how do we move forward from here? It's not going to come from the politicians. Right?

[Palestinian Doctor]

It's going to come from the majority of the Israeli people to accept the rights of the Palestinians to be equal.

[Rudy Rock]

I agree with you, but you have to accept my rights to be able to be a human being here. And I demonize my people.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Sir. I worked as a dentist in Bethlehem, outside of the city of Bethlehem, next to a place called Movie Bitar, where my patients were Jews, Muslims and Christians and guess what? All what they care about. How much is going to hurt to pull out a tooth when they're sitting in the room. So what I'm trying to tell you here, that we have no problem living with each other, but not with a gun on our head. Not when you're taking my house. Not when you're telling me you cannot go to work every day. Not when you humiliate me on every checkpoint.

[Rudy Rock]

You remember who you're talking to? I'm against the checkpoints. I'm against the walls that divide our land. I'm against the fact that we're currently living in the United States.

[Palestinian Doctor]

What are you doing to become the majority? You are a minority.

[Rudy Rock]

No, we're not. We're silent. Large population. I wouldn't say it's the majority or a minority, but we're a large population and we need to create a social revolution. And we in this land have to start changing the conversation. No longer demonizing one another and being able to envision a future.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Can you also add to your activism that you guys get off? The freedom of speech of America. Let us speak whatever you want to do with America. I'm sorry. Well, you have to speak about that as well.

[Rudy Rock]

I believe in freedom of speech in every country in the world.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Your government is imposing so much restrictions on the freedom of speech of Americans and we are not liking that.

[Rudy Rock]

I don't think.

[Palestinian Doctor]

And you are losing the Americans because of that.

[Rudy Rock]

I don't think Americans should have a limitation of freedom of speech unless someone is trying to invoke violence on someone and saying I'm planning to to then that's different than just saying. I'm expressing an idea that I have.

[Palestinian Doctor]

How many professors lost their jobs because they said they're anti genocide?

[Rudy Rock]

Well, a lot of professors. I went to Columbia. They're actually supporting the genocide of Jews and saying that October 7th was a genocide against Jews.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Man, I don't know where you genocide that victim mentality. Nobody's after you guys.

[Rudy Rock]

A lot of people are after us after your actions. New York City, okay? We are 13% of the population. Over 60% of total hate crimes are targeted against Jews because you. How many people?

[Palestinian Doctor]

I sit down with the Chief of Police.

[Rudy Rock]

60%.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I'll tell you you what, I sat

[Rudy Rock]

down with a plenty of actions that

[Palestinian Doctor]

people don't sat down with the chief

[Rudy Rock]

of police here in minimizing anti Semitism.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I'm not. I'm saying you are so much better in reporting this.

[Rudy Rock]

Okay, but better than everybody else. It's clearly a problem.

[Palestinian Doctor]

It doesn't exist. It exists, but I'm saying that's what we heard from the chief of police of many cities around here. Guys, you need to report hate crimes against your community. Of course, because this community reports it better than everybody else and collect all the benefit of reporting them.

[Rudy Rock]

So you guys know what's interesting about anti Semitism? The. The far right blames us for being the left. The far left thinks we're the right. The black supremacists, the Farrakhans were enemy number one. The white supremacists.

[Palestinian Doctor]

It's not victim mentality.

[Rudy Rock]

It's not. It's understanding.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You think everybody's after you.

[Rudy Rock]

No. The extremes are always obsessed against the Jewish people. Why? Because the Jewish people have a function in this earth that we have yet to fulfill, which is to be the world's immune system. Okay. We chose that responsibility. It is our mission statement of the world. And the reason why there's anti Semitism. It is a rejection and reaction to the Jewish people failing their.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I think that's. That's. With all due respect to what you just said, it's really a wild dream that you have that people have to be.

[Rudy Rock]

The idea of a unity around the world is a wild dream, right?

[Palestinian Doctor]

No.

[Rudy Rock]

The Jewish people believe in a reality called Mashiach. A reality where we will have to send this earth.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You know, people. People blame everything on antisemitism right now.

[Rudy Rock]

No, there's a lot of anti Semitism that exists. It's not everything. Everyone is an anti Semite. I don't consider you an anti Semite. Okay. Because we had a conversation. We understood that you define Zionism differently. And so I'm not.

[Palestinian Doctor]

So what I'm asking you, if you want to tackle this issue and we go back to it, is try to understand. When people are criticizing the actions of the Israeli government, when people are expecting from it to act like a civilized nation, they're not being anti Semite.

[Rudy Rock]

Correct. But when people are demonizing Israel, delegitimizing Israel, holding double standards, they are being.

[Palestinian Doctor]

There's no double standards.

[Rudy Rock]

There are double standards.

[Palestinian Doctor]

There are no double standards. Why is it okay to be double standards when we get amount of support from America? America. But it's not okay when the Americans are criticizing our actions?

[Rudy Rock]

What does it do to America? I'm against the US Support of America when their actual genocide.

[Palestinian Doctor]

No, but you never said.

[Rudy Rock]

No one is talking about those things that are happening.

[Palestinian Doctor]

You never said it's double standards that the US government gives $3 billion every year to Israel.

[Rudy Rock]

Well, is it a double standard or is an intentional investment in order to

[Palestinian Doctor]

control Israel, but it's not the same for every other country.

[Rudy Rock]

So why it's not a double standard you're helping a country in order to be able to control it has nothing to do with double standards. Standards. Double standard would be looking at all the problems in this world and realizing, wow, there's so many people here in Sudan that have been killed, in Nigeria, that have been killed in Israel, Palestine that have been killed and caring about all them, or even Palestinians when Hamas is killing Palestinians. I don't see any protests. I don't see any riots.

[Palestinian Doctor]

People choose what to be activated about certain topics.

[Rudy Rock]

They choose to care about your people, my family.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Only when it comes to that.

[Rudy Rock]

It comes because the world is profiting from this. The media companies, the military companies, anybody

[Palestinian Doctor]

who is in the media who acts in any way to criticize, what's Israel going to do? He's losing his job.

[Rudy Rock]

That's not true. All the media companies are losing. This is just recent. Everything you see on the media are always going against Israel.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I sat down.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

If I could just redirect this a little bit. I did hear points of agreement. Frustration with aipac, frustrations with Netanyahu, agreements on. On, you know, things that you want to see change in Israel can. I would love to hear from Rudy and then your response, Doctor on like, what changes do we want to see where there is alignment?

[Rudy Rock]

I think the most productive way we can continue this conversation is to understand how do we change the narratives for our collectives to start seeing each other as human beings and being able to exist in this land. So that goes to the Israeli population. How can we start seeing the Palestinian identity as a legitimate identity connected to this land? Land as their suffering as real suffering? And how could Palestinians start to understand that the Jewish people are also connected to this land, have a right to be here when they're being attacked and suffering, that's also something to condemn. So how do you suggest that we can change the cultural view, not just the political?

[Palestinian Doctor]

Yes. You cannot put the carriage before the horse. You cannot expect people who don't have any human rights, they don't have the ability to find food or to feed their children or to protect their families and then expect them to go into that high level of Civilized social understanding. First, let them have the freedom, the ability to leave, the self determination, right? Let them be feeling that they're safe in their homes, in their cities, in their villages. Nobody's gonna come and take their food. No one's gonna come and bomb their homes. I am telling you just a few months ago, my friends, he has a huge amount of sheep in the Masrasherqiyah, which is a town north of Ramallah, and they just came and took all the cattle that he has. This is the fear that Palestinians have. What do you expect us to do? Just sit down, be sitting ducks being shot by the Israeli soldiers? First, let's give them the rights. Let's give them the sense of security and safety that Israelis are not gonna come after them every time, every chance they have. That's the first step.

[Rudy Rock]

Israelis are not coming after all Palestinians. There's some bad actors that happen, like in all populations, but this generalization of Israel is coming at this.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I lived as a kid and I

[Pro-Palestinian Activist]

saw what I was.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I'm looking at from the other side. I look at it from the other side.

[Rudy Rock]

So I hear your experiences in Bethlehem, which is a house of bread in Hebrew, ancient Jewish town. Okay, so let's talk about what you were just saying. I don't agree with you entirely, that they can't do anything, they can't have any conversation. No one can be seen as other than just being an extremist. I don't agree with that. But I do agree with you that Israel with the power has a greater responsibility to change. And I always talk about that. If Israel, Israel removed Hamas, gave people freedom of speech, invested in education, in infrastructure, in job opportunities. And slowly, when we saw that the population is not reacting that way to the Israeli government to remove the point.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Otherwise history shows what otherwise history shows us that whenever Israelis have the full power of controlling the lives of Palestinians, they're going to make their life hell. They're going to make their life miserable.

[Rudy Rock]

I think that Palestinians living in Israel are the freest Palestinians that are living anywhere in the world.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I don't think even the Israelis want to. Strategically, they think it's a bad idea to put all Palestinians under one state. Demographically there will be minority. That's what it is.

[Rudy Rock]

We wouldn't agree with some people, but we wouldn't. Because a lot of people aren't aware that there are 12 tribes of Israel. The Ethiopians are one of the ones that were displaced. Of the nine and a half that have yet to come back.

[Palestinian Doctor]

We want to respect the intelligence of the viewers like this. What are you talking about?

[Rudy Rock]

We are made up of 12 tribes. The Jewish people. This is not an idea. If they're Native Americans are made up of many tribes or many nations, it's also a truth because you haven't heard or don't know or aren't aware that something different. We're made up of 12 tribes. Today's population of the Jewish people 16 million around the world is two and a half. There are nine and a half that you have to return. If they are to return and Palestinians are to return, there's no more demographic threat that Israelis feel. You are able to have full equal rights in that land with the right of return and we're able to transcend and to move forward. But you shouldn't be speaking to Israelis who are afraid of telling you the truth or who are weak. And I shouldn't be speaking to Palestinians who are tokens are just trying to demonize other Palestinians or fans who are here to try to, to use our conflict to go against one another or to gain popularity. We have a future together and it's one that includes both aspirations that we have and ending the injustice for both peoples.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I reciprocate by saying that Palestinians have no problem with peaceful solutions that will guarantee their dignity, their ability to live, their ability to have futures where they can raise their children in a safe and a comfortable environment. Palestinians don't have the desire to kill or attack every Jewish or every Israeli. All Palestinians are doing are defending themselves from those atrocities and those attacks that are happening against them. I believe strongly once the Israelis stop attacking, dehumanizing, bombing Palestinians villages and homes, Palestinians will not have a problem with them. I want you to know that as

[Rudy Rock]

a Palestinian, I agree with most are like that and inshallah we'll get to that reality.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

All right, all right, let's stop there. Give them a hand, Rudy. Thank you, doctor. Thank you. We are going to record a follow up episode to continue the conversation with these two. So stay tuned for that and follow the Surrounded podcast wherever you get your podcast. I want to thank everybody who participated in this episode. If you are a viewer and you're commenting on this video, please acknowledge the humanity of everybody here. They are being vulnerable. This is not an easy thing to do. So thank you all. All snaps to you and stay tuned for our next episode which will be one fitness expert versus 20 body positivity activists. Thank you for watching. We'll see you next time.

[Rudy Rock]

In the first half was very heated. A lot of people were pointing fingers Calling each other names, speaking over one another. But the second half, we actually see it changing and talking about solutions.

[Palestinian Doctor]

I did have mixed feelings. He either extremely well trained to present a kinder, nicer, positive image of an Israeli soldier to gain the hearts and the minds of the American public, or he's having a change of heart of what his government is doing. And I'm hoping this is what it is.

[Rudy Rock]

We need to understand that we are family. We not only descend from Ibrahim, from Avoham, from Yitzhak and Ishmael, but we also descend from the same ancestors a few generations ago. We are eternally linked to this land. And yes, we should criticize and talk about the things that are wrong for our people, but never in a way to demonize the entirety of the other. And we need to start listening to one another to understand what are the non negotiables.

[Palestinian Doctor]

Once the Israelis realize and understand that they're not superior than Palestinians, they don't have more rights. They have to realize and come to an understanding they're not above the law, they're not above the human rights laws and rules.

[Jewish Critic of Zionism]

You have to realize that if you care about Jewish and Israel Israeli safety, you also have to care about Palestinian safety. They're connected. You cannot want Jewish safety if you want to demolish the safety of Palestinians because they're going to demand their safety, that's their right as humans.

[Rudy Rock]

So overall, I'm very happy with the outcome. I'm happy that people are willing to engage with one another and I hope that that inspires and empowers a lot of people who will watch this to do the same.

[John Rigolato (Host)]

Hey listeners, just want to remind you we have episodes of the podcast coming out every Sunday, so please consider subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for your support.