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- [00:00]
Skip Bayless
You realize that he lucked into playing into the worst division in football over his seven years because if I look at the Raiders over they have the six worst record. First off Broncos.
- [00:11]
Will
Oh my gosh. We can talk about this. I mean. Oh, let's, let's talk about the what was that pass against Oakland?
- [00:20]
Skip Bayless
From Jubilee Media, this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. Today's guest is the popular sports commentator Skip Bayless, who will be debating 25 NBA and NFL superfans. Skip will debate them one on one.
- [00:36]
Will
Until they are voted out by their peers and replaced by someone new.
- [00:42]
Skip Bayless
Let's get into it.
- [00:46]
Will
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- [01:04]
Skip Bayless
Free returns in store order pickup and more.
- [01:07]
Will
Shop today in stores online@nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like.
- [01:30]
Skip Bayless
Prime Video, Amazon Music, and fast free.
- [01:32]
Will
Delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.
- [01:44]
Skip Bayless
I'm Skip Bayless. I've been a sports commentator for many years on ESPN and on Fox. Now I host the Skip Bayless show on YouTube. Right now I am surrounded by 20 NBA and NFL super fans and I wish each and every one of you the best of luck today because you're going to need it. My first claim is Magic Johnson is the greatest Laker of all time. You're lucky, Skip.
- [02:19]
Will
I know you think Magic is the greatest Laker of all time.
- [02:21]
Skip Bayless
I do, Skip.
- [02:22]
Will
I think it's Kobe. I think the game is about a bucket. At the end of the day, I think the priority is scoring the basketball. Kobe did that better than Magic. I think both of them were very, very transformative in what they did for the Laker franchise and the NBA in general. And I would give it to Kobe. To Kobe. Excuse me, because of his scoring prowess and also of course, how transformative he was and how many players he inspired.
- [02:46]
Skip Bayless
Look, I take nothing away from Kobe's ability to just score buckets, get buckets, because nobody was greater in the history of the Game Magic did transform the franchise because remember, Kareem had been a Laker for four years doing next to nothing until Magic walks in the door in 1980 and turns them around and gets them all the way to a Game 6 at Philadelphia in the finals in which Kareem could not go. And I believe Magic Johnson that day at Philadelphia that evening played the greatest NBA game of all time, greatest playoff game, because he goes as a rookie for 42, 15 and 7 with three steals. He makes 14 of 23 shots in all, 14 of his free throws and lifts the Lakers over Dr. J. Sixers to a championship. And he's off to the races. Now let's look quickly at Kobe. Again, no disrespect, but I feel like Kobe was obviously Robin to Batman in the three peat with Shaq because Shaq dominated those three finals the way no players ever dominated an NBA Finals. To me, including Jordan, that's why I think Shaq is the second greatest Laker of all time. And in those Finals, Kobe was good, but he wasn't close to the production that Shaq was equaling. So then Shaq, they fall apart. They lose to The Pistons obviously 2004, and he's gone, traded away to Miami. And here we go. So Kobe without Shaq misses the playoffs the first year. Then they lose to the Suns in the first round and he has the pout game in game seven. And it was hard for me to forgive him for that. And then they lose to the Suns in the first round the next year and then they, they lose to Boston in the finals in the closeout game 6. Kobe is horrible in that game and they lose by 39 points at Boston. I can't defend that. They broke through and beat Dwight Howard's Magic. It was supposed to be to be the LeBron's Cavs, so I thought that was a little overrated. And then even when they did beat Boston get over the hump in Game 7, Kobe was 6 of 24 in that game. So I, I don't know. I agree with your big picture, but when I go little picture of playoff performance without Shaq, I'm sorry, I totally.
- [04:58]
Will
Understand what you're saying. And I think Magic was extraordinary and to be a rookie and start at center in the finals as a point guard, I mean, we've never seen that before. I don't know if we ever will. And yeah, he was terrific. He was splendid. He won his championships. Of course Kobe got his. And I understand you picking out these individual games and years and teammates and everything And I think you can really do that with anyone.
- [05:19]
Skip Bayless
And I think it's important to look at the big picture, because mystique. Mystique was bigger than Magic's. But if you look at Magic's productivity, how he changed a culture that both Shaq and Kobe benefited from, piggybacking that culture. I'm going slightly Magic over Shaq. Shaq over Kobe.
- [05:39]
Will
All right, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.
- [05:44]
Skip Bayless
Good job, Dan.
- [05:44]
Will
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
- [05:46]
Skip Bayless
All right. Thank you. Way to go.
- [05:50]
Will
So Kobe Bryant, 20 years with the same team, 18 All Stars, 15 All NBA, 12 All Defense MVP, two Finals MVPs, five championships. And even though he's done all of that, I think what makes him the greatest Laker of all time, it's different than what makes a player the greatest player of all time, because, like, LeBron's not the greatest Heat player of all time. That's Dwyane Wade. So it's not just, are you better? Like, are you greater? It's what you've done for that city and that franchise. And I would argue. I love Magic. I grew up on Magic, but when.
- [06:27]
Skip Bayless
You watch, it feels like you grew up more on Kobe, right?
- [06:31]
Will
I'm older than I look, honestly. But. But Magic, when you saw him on the court, he was like the greatest showman, right? He's a performer, charisma, a smile, the flashiness. Showtime, right? Kobe, when you saw him on the court, it was like watching your. Your brother, you know, your sibling or your uncle or some of your son, because he had this fully realized character arc. He was a rookie. He failed, you know, not drafted by the Lakers, but we got him, you know, early. And the air balls, you know, and then the rising to prominence.
- [07:07]
Skip Bayless
2000, he's just 18 years old, but go ahead.
- [07:09]
Will
Yeah, the 2000, taking over in the finals after Shaq got hurt, after Jalen Rose, shadowy, sprained his ankle. And then he came back, and then, you know, he got him back with the 81 later, but. And then the championships, and then there was another. He went through kind of a villain arc.
- [07:24]
Skip Bayless
He did.
- [07:25]
Will
You know, there was, like, Colorado.
- [07:27]
Skip Bayless
There was Colorado.
- [07:28]
Will
All the down years.
- [07:30]
Skip Bayless
Good. Like it.
- [07:31]
Will
If you're a fan, you're with. Kobe's with you that whole time. And I actually didn't like Kobe early on. I wanted. I was mad when they started playing him over Eddie Jones, like, early, early days. And you went through all of that, and Kobe just won you over. That's why there are more than 350 murals of Kobe in LA.
- [07:49]
Skip Bayless
Okay, so you're making the case that Kobe is dearer to your heart than Magic was. He has a bigger place in your heart. And I'm making the case that Magic had greater impact consistently than Kobe had because Magic was the driving force of the Showtime Lakers and Kobe was not the driving force of the three peat.
- [08:08]
Will
Right, well, let me address that real quick because you're going to the finals and you're talking about Shaq, but that's always with the team from the east. And the east had notoriously bad big men. Everyone knows in those years the finals was the Western Conference finals and in those, those series, Kobe was instrumental. You know, in 2002, Kobe and Shaq basically throughout the whole playoffs had equivalent points. Yeah, the same amount of points. And Shaq himself has admitted on various podcasts and different things, he, he was never the guy to take the last shot. I know you value that, right? Jordan's your guy. Kobe is the closest thing that we've ever seen to Jordan. And he was a guy who never shied away from the moment. He was a guy who always made the most of his opportunity when it.
- [08:52]
Skip Bayless
Was there, I'll give you that.
- [08:53]
Will
And the. I don't think he gets enough credit for the second run that he made with Powell. That team wasn't. I mean, that's not an all time team. No, you know, his all time.
- [09:03]
Skip Bayless
His breakthrough was not against an all time team because remember The Magic upset LeBron's Cavaliers to get to the final.
- [09:11]
Will
Right. I mean, I, I give you that. But you can only play the team that. You know, I think LeBron, maybe he's the one who didn't. They had the Nike commercials, you know, but LeBron didn't supposed to be.
- [09:20]
Skip Bayless
He didn't hold up his end in the bargain.
- [09:22]
Will
I mean.
- [09:23]
Skip Bayless
Okay, so you're okay with Kobe pouting in a game seven at Phoenix against Raja Bell?
- [09:28]
Will
I'm not okay with it, but I mean, are you okay with 84. Tragic Johnson where, you know, runs out the clock, throws the turnover.
- [09:35]
Skip Bayless
He did. He bounced right back the next year in 85. And he was there. He shoots a baby hook shot.
- [09:41]
Will
Kobe bounced the next year by going to the finals.
- [09:44]
Skip Bayless
Okay. He did, yeah. After the. You mean after the pout.
- [09:48]
Will
After the pout, Yeah. I don't. That's what to me, those failures you're pointing at. Every player has failures except for maybe who's your goat. But. But every player has that. Magic has that. Kobe has that. I think in terms of LA and la.
- [10:06]
Skip Bayless
Okay. But if you look at Shaq's numbers in those three finals, and I give you that the big men, the Tim Duncan's were over on the other side of the bracket, right? But he goes 38, 17 and 2 in their first finals. 33, 16 and 5 and 36, 12 and 4. Look at the assists. He's averaging five assists a game in the NBA finals. Listen, those three years, and I've been doing this a long time, I was actually covering the Kareem Lakers pre Magic out here in la, unless you voted out.
- [10:35]
Will
Real quick, real quick, real quick. Did. Were any of those Finals really competitive? Pacers, Sixers and Nets. No, they weren't competitive.
- [10:45]
Skip Bayless
They dominated those teams because you had the greatest offensive force I've ever seen, including Jordan, where he was unreferable at that point, because I never knew whether it's offense or defense, you know, on.
- [10:58]
Will
The foul, I think Kobe could easily have had better numbers. He didn't have to, you know, Shaq, those teams were not equipped to play against the Lakers. Credit Allen Iverson for getting the one game in 2001.
- [11:10]
Skip Bayless
He was big. That was the greatest achievement of his career. Yeah.
- [11:13]
Will
Yeah.
- [11:14]
Skip Bayless
Good job. I will.
- [11:18]
Will
How you doing?
- [11:18]
Skip Bayless
Nice to see you.
- [11:20]
Will
Yep. So how is Magic? The greatest Laker of all time. And he wasn't even the greatest Laker on this team. That's Kareem. Kareem was first all time in Lakers points, first in rebounds, first in blocks, first in field goals made, you know, and he had an unstoppable move in the Skyhook. Has one more championship because he has six, Magic has five, and he has three more MVPs.
- [11:40]
Skip Bayless
Okay.
- [11:40]
Will
We haven't even got to Kobe yet.
- [11:42]
Skip Bayless
We haven't. All right, let's look hard at Kareem's career. So he wins his first ring in Milwaukee, Helped helped by Oscar Robertson kind of at the end of his career. So that's 1971. Then he goes four more years in Milwaukee and nothing really. They were pretty good, but they weren't great. Then he comes to LA in 76, is his first year with the Lakers. And again, there's no Magic yet, obviously.
- [12:03]
Will
Right.
- [12:03]
Skip Bayless
And they miss the playoffs the first year. The second year, they get swept by Portland in the conference finals. The third year of Kareem, no Magic, they lose in the first round to Seattle. And the fourth year, Kareem, no Magic, they lose in the conference semifinals to Seattle. So they're floundering with Kareem because he was a Follower and not a leader. I give you every point you made about points and about rebounds and about blocks and about skyhooks and all that is sensational. But there's a missing ingredient called leadership, charisma, whatever that greatest intangible is that Magic had greater than anybody this side of Jordan.
- [12:44]
Will
Yeah, no, I give you that. I give you that for sure. But the thing about it is, you were talking about in 1980, right, when magic won Rookie of the Year. Would he have won Rookie of the Year if he would have. If. Yeah. Would he have one rookie without.
- [12:57]
Skip Bayless
Without.
- [12:58]
Will
Kareem was averaging 33 points that series?
- [13:00]
Skip Bayless
Well, I would like before he would got injured in games, gone to Utah or wherever he would have gone, I just think he would have been Rookie of the year. But he. He was the perfect fit at the perfect moment for this team. And it became a super team, right?
- [13:13]
Will
Absolutely.
- [13:14]
Skip Bayless
It was showtime. And they had big game James, obviously, and they had Byron, and they had Michael Cooper guarding the way nobody could guard on the perimeter. I give you all that. But it gelled around the new son s u n who was Magic. Right, Right. And. And he lifted them into what was nine finals. Okay.
- [13:33]
Will
Yeah.
- [13:33]
Skip Bayless
And he is the driving force. Kareem wasn't. Kareem was really more of a Robin, but you can make a case he was the greatest Robin of all time. Right. Okay. I give you all your numbers because clearly it took LeBron playing now 22 years, but it took 21 years to break Kareem's record.
- [13:50]
Will
And that's the point that I was making, is that at the end of the day, like, unless Kareem just got unlucky because the best player of all time, LeBron James, took that scoring title from him, but he would have been able to keep that for his whole life. And then if we go to Kobe, right. For example, if I was to take your papers right there, ball them up in a trash can and shoot it, whose name would we say? We wouldn't say Magic.
- [14:09]
Skip Bayless
No.
- [14:10]
Will
Who we saying? We saying Kobe. You know what I mean?
- [14:12]
Skip Bayless
Yeah.
- [14:13]
Will
And then. And that's what it's about. And when we talk about, like, keeping that mentality, how you go through life, how you focus on what you need to do in life, nobody says, you know, keep that magic. They say, keep that Mamba mentality.
- [14:24]
Skip Bayless
Okay?
- [14:25]
Will
That's what it's all about.
- [14:26]
Skip Bayless
But you grew up in the mamba mentality era, am I right?
- [14:29]
Will
Exactly. Exactly. That's why I started off with Kareem first.
- [14:31]
Skip Bayless
Okay, all right. You do, and I give you that. But Magic Johnson was the greatest NBA leader ever. Beyond Bill Russell, beyond Michael Jordan, beyond. We got Brady over on the other side in the National Football League. So that's another argument. But on just NBA leadership, Magic, on charisma, on winning time, as he called it. Winning time. And in my generation, winning time was more important than cause we didn't know mama mentality yet.
- [15:02]
Will
I got you.
- [15:02]
Skip Bayless
I won't winning time. I got Magic card.
- [15:04]
Will
But Kobe had the same type of leadership style as far as, like, Kobe had aura. Like, you know, job's not finished, like all of those things. But also he showed it in actions first, you know what I mean? He wasn't really about the partying or going out. He was so dedicated to crack.
- [15:18]
Skip Bayless
I think Kobe was a Jordanes leader and he made modeled every bit of his action, his very body language after Michael Jordan. And he led like Jordan did. And it wasn't a pretty sight because he could be a real, you know, just a tough leader, like a he. He gave nobody any slack at all. He pushed, he pulled, he. He cursed. He. He did it the way Jordan did it. I agree it was scary. It was like an intimidation. Leadership by intimidation. Magic did it with a smile. But Magic, listen, I got to know him in his rookie year. He was as tough as they came. You wouldn't want to mess with him.
- [15:55]
Will
I agree with you. I mean, leadership comes in all different forms, right? You never know how somebody's going to choose to lead. But, you know, Kobe led in plenty of ways. And also all the players that picked up a basketball because of his presence. We wouldn't have Devin Booker without Kobe. Jason Tatum is doing what he does.
- [16:11]
Skip Bayless
But I'm looking at the first four years with no Shaq. And Kobe really struggled by himself because he couldn't figure out yet how to lead because he was a solo act of solo acts. So it took Jordan a while to figure out, hey, you actually need those four other guys along with eight, nine other guys to get this done. And he, with Phil's help, he finally figured that out when they broke through. But even after the pout game in game seven, if I look at Kobe winning the championship, getting even with the Boston Celtics in that game seven, he shoots six of 24 in a game seven. Well, that's not mamba mentality and I didn't love that. It's like, remember Ron Artest met a world peace, hit the shot of shots in that game with a minute left. He hits a big three that gave them the cushion.
- [17:00]
Will
I'm a Celtics fan. I watched that.
- [17:02]
Skip Bayless
There you go.
- [17:03]
Will
Thank you, Skip.
- [17:03]
Skip Bayless
Way to go. Good job.
- [17:07]
Will
I think that Magic Johnson is one of the greatest Lakers of all time.
- [17:13]
Skip Bayless
But because he had a shortened career, unfortunately he did. It was still 12 years, but it should have been 20 years, but not 20.
- [17:21]
Will
Like Kareem, like Kobe, like LeBron. But I'm going to go a little off path here. I'm going to argue that the logo was the greatest Laker of all time. He only won one, but he had to play against the greatest dynasty in the history of the sport. He had to play against the greatest leader in the history of the sport. I think Bill Russell, who would make like Magic, everybody around him better. Also he scouted for the Lakers afterwards.
- [17:56]
Skip Bayless
He did.
- [17:57]
Will
He coached the Lakers during the time that you're talking about Kareem getting there.
- [18:01]
Skip Bayless
Not well, but he coached.
- [18:02]
Will
They actually did okay. They actually did okay. They didn't have a great team, but they did like, I think they got the Western Conference finals at least once. And then he stepped aside and when Bus wanted to hire Riley because Magic pushed Westhead right out.
- [18:21]
Skip Bayless
Yep.
- [18:23]
Will
Buss tried to make them co coaches and west and Riley and west right afterwards said that's not the case. It's Riley's team.
- [18:32]
Skip Bayless
Right. He wanted no part of that.
- [18:34]
Will
And he's a badass like in that way. And he put together Showtime, he put together Shaq and Kobe. He. He helped Memphis have a team at all.
- [18:42]
Skip Bayless
Okay, talking about post career, we're talking about playing career. Because Jerry to me is the greatest GM ever in the history of, of the NBA. And by the way, Michael Jordan was the worst GM in the history of the NBA. Just for objectivity here, but to your, to your point, okay, so Jerry west and the Lakers get to to nine finals. Nine finals and he loses eight times. And a lot of it had to do with that guy, Bill Russell.
- [19:09]
Will
To the greatest team.
- [19:11]
Skip Bayless
But if I swap out, if I put Magic in place of the logo on those teams, Magic was the greatest winner this side of Michael Jordan that I ever closely observed and got to know. So if you put him in on those Jerry west teams with Wilt and with Elgin and with Gale Goodrich, that he puts them over the top because of his dynamic charisma and leadership. It was unequal. I've never seen things like it. Jerry's leadership, I'm sorry, Jerry was quiet leadership. It was, but it was.
- [19:42]
Will
But he had Elgin who was charismatic, who was like Michael Jordan before Michael Jordan. And west won The MVP of the Finals.
- [19:51]
Skip Bayless
Only person been a losing cause on losing cause.
- [19:55]
Will
That's how great he was.
- [19:57]
Skip Bayless
He goes one and he's the low finals of the NBA. And you can't say that's better than Magic's winning time.
- [20:02]
Will
Showtime, also to be the greatest Laker ever doesn't mean you're the greatest Laker player ever, necessarily. So he's the only one that was great as a player, great as a scout, I think good as a coach, great as a gm, Great. Great as an advisor, great as a logo for the entire NBA the whole time. He didn't ever do anything wrong.
- [20:25]
Skip Bayless
Okay, but if you put Jerry west on the Showtime teams, do you think they're Showtime? Because they're not. Because he didn't play with any.
- [20:32]
Will
Kurt Randis was on the Showtime team.
- [20:34]
Skip Bayless
Well, he was. He was like a sixth man or badass enforcer.
- [20:38]
Will
Jerry west would have been fine. He would have been like Byron Scott or better, right?
- [20:41]
Skip Bayless
Yeah, but. But again, if you didn't have Magic Johnson on those teams, you don't have Showtime. There's no more show.
- [20:47]
Will
You don't have show.
- [20:48]
Skip Bayless
And Jerry west was as pretty a jump shooter as I've ever seen. It was just beautiful form and it was mesmerizing. But it wasn't captivating. Right. It wasn't Magic Johnson. I couldn't take my eyes off Magic because he had the big smile. He had the greatest smile in the history of the game.
- [21:06]
Will
Yes.
- [21:06]
Skip Bayless
And it was contagious on his team. He lifted his entire team with his own charisma.
- [21:11]
Will
Like Russell. Like Russell did in his own way. But I didn't think. I didn't realize that compellingness was part of what made somebody the greatest Laker ever. I thought it was like scoring well.
- [21:25]
Skip Bayless
Leadership and leadership. I don't think Jerry was a great leader, really. I think he was more of a solo act. He stayed to himself. He was a quiet leader, but not dynamic.
- [21:34]
Will
He helped manage.
- [21:34]
Skip Bayless
Not a powerful voice in the locker room kind of leader. He helped manage Wilt, I guess, for a little while. And they got a champion for the one championship.
- [21:42]
Will
For the best Laker team ever, arguably.
- [21:44]
Skip Bayless
Yeah. You could certainly make a case for that.
- [21:50]
Will
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state.
- [22:15]
Skip Bayless
My next claim is Michael Jordan is the goat and laughably Better than LeBron James. Here we go. How are you, sir?
- [22:28]
Will
Good, how are you? Nice to meet you. I'm a big fan of your career, everything you stand for in this industry. But, but this awful take, I'm not gonna let it seep through. Okay, so Michael Jordan. There are two angles to looking at the GOAT debate. Number one, could Michael Jordan have done what LeBron is doing in this era and vice versa. The other angle is, is there any single thing that Michael Jordan has done over the course of an entire career better than LeBron James? So I'm asking you, is there one thing that you could definitively say that Michael Jordan did better than LeBron James over the course of his entire NBA career?
- [23:03]
Skip Bayless
Yeah, he won. Better. He just won and won and won. He was invincible and unbeatable. And he went 60 in the finals with six MVPs. And no, they didn't play the toughest competition in the finals, but the Beasts were in the east. And he devoured and slayed the Beasts one after another. Bird Celtics, then the Bad boy Pistons, and then Reggie Miller's Pacers. And when, when you go six zero with six MVPs in the finals versus four and six in the finals for LeBron. And Ray Allen saved LeBron a loss there because LeBron had completely self destructed in game six of that 2013 finals. And then if Kyrie, when nobody can buy a shot, if Kyrie hadn't hit the shot of shots in game seven at Oracle, LeBron could be two and eight in the finals. So we're talking about winning. Look, I give you, I say it all the time. LeBron is still to this moment the best passer in basketball. I say it all the time. LeBron is still the greatest driver of the basketball I ever saw to a fault. Because he's a poor jump shooter, a poor three point shooter by star standards or certainly by superstar standards. And he's a poor free throw shooter by superstar standards. He should have 5,000 more points. But he's such a worse shooter than Jordan ever was as a jump shooter and a free throw shooter that it's hard for me to say how can you call LeBron the goat when he's a lousy shooter?
- [24:35]
Will
Part of the argument to what you said is everything you just said is wrong. So if you look at true shooting percentage, which takes into account all the offense, all the scoring, who had the better true shooting percentage in his NBA career in the regular season, LeBron James, who had the better true shooting percentage in the playoffs? LeBron James. And you just said Michael Jordan won a lot better. So starting 1:9 in the playoffs in his career doesn't count. Just doesn't matter. Or losing to the Pistons over and over again because he was so dominated by any level of physicality, because he was soft. So that does not count. That doesn't matter.
- [25:12]
Skip Bayless
Wait, did you just call Michael Jordan.
- [25:14]
Will
Soft compared to LeBron James, he was the baddest.
- [25:16]
Skip Bayless
You know what? Whoever stepped on a basketball court, I was there. Not like LeBron.
- [25:21]
Will
Not like LeBron.
- [25:22]
Skip Bayless
LeBron is like the nicest guy ever. He's soft, he's a diva, he's thin skinned. And can I start down the litany of epic fails that LeBron had that Jordan never had. Yeah, it took a while to break through against Larry Bird Celtics, but remember that Michael Jordan had missed the whole year. He played three games and broke his foot. This is his second year in the league and he comes back just for the playoffs and goes up against arguably the 86 Celtics where the you could make a case they were the greatest team ever. And what does he do? He scores 49 in game one and in game two, he scores 63. It took double overtime. But after that game, Larry Bird said that was God disguised as Michael Jordan. Well, trust me, Larry Bird would have never said God disguised as LeBron James. Because look at the epic failures here. Do you remember 2010? The last go round of the first stint in Cleveland? It's against the Celtics in the playoffs. It's the conference semifinals. They win big by by 22. He's 14 to 22 from the floor. That's game three. Then we get to four, five and six and right on schedule, he just crumbles to the point that he had somebody from his inner circle tell Stephen A. Smith at espn, because I was there alongside Stephen A. At that point, that LeBron had to be sedated before Games 4, 5 and 6 because he was having some locker room issue with a teammate. Delonte west, listen, Michael Jordan never had any issues with locker room teammates because they wouldn't dare to have an issue with Michael Jordan. So the point was he had to be sedated. What a wimp. What a weenie. Is that what we're talking about? And then Dan Gilbert, his owner a few Weeks later accused LeBron of quitting in those finals. And then do you remember the first go around with the Heat, the 2011 finals, do you remember? The chosen one became the frozen one. I've never seen like it. Michael Jordan never did that. Even when they were starting 1 and 9. People were scared to death. Pause.
- [27:22]
Will
You've been voted out by the majority.
- [27:23]
Skip Bayless
Nice try. Hey, good job. You got some quicks, man. Impressed?
- [27:32]
Will
Cause I'm ready to come get you.
- [27:33]
Skip Bayless
Okay, here we go.
- [27:34]
Will
Okay, I'm gonna start here with you. You wanna discredit talking about 1 and 9 in the playoffs and then not even talk about the fact that he couldn't even get to the finals in his first six, seven seasons. Right? So you prefer somebody not even making it to the finals? That's crazy. You wanna discount.
- [27:49]
Skip Bayless
I don't know what he had in the way. He had two of the greatest teams ever in the way. And he didn't have. He didn't even have a Robin yet. He was going solo. He didn't have a Scotty player yet.
- [27:58]
Will
LeBron did. First couple years, okay? I did. And he made it to the Finals. He made it to the finals with a less roster than Jordan did.
- [28:05]
Skip Bayless
And they got swept by the Spurs. And I didn't even bring that up, because I give you that one. I'm not gonna hold that one.
- [28:11]
Will
So you wanna hold somebody accountable for going to the finals and losing, then not going to the finals at all, Right? More money to the city, so many more things accomplished, less players on the team. Right? Then his other final losses, Right? You could even talk about the fact that when he went up against the warriors, he didn't even have a running mate with him either, right? So every time you want to protect Jordan, I knew you were going to go with six.
- [28:32]
Skip Bayless
Okay? So he goes up against the warriors, okay? And I always give him this. Those first three games, you remember, because he doesn't have Kevin Love. He was gone already, right? Kyrie fractures his kneecap in overtime of game one at Oracle. Remember this? LeBron put up the greatest numbers of his career for three straight games. And I'm like, you got this team. Because they weren't the warriors yet. They obviously didn't have KD yet. And they weren't sure who they were. So they're down two games to one, and Game 4 is in LeBron's house in Cleveland. And in Game 4, he was horrible. He goes 7 of 22. He was 5 of 10 from the free throw line. And I'm like, the next day I'm telling Stephen A. On ESPN he had a chance to step on their throats. It was, Remember the Iguodala game where Steve Kerr said, I'm going to switch. I'm going to start Iguodala and I'm going to put him on LeBron.
- [29:25]
Will
And.
- [29:26]
Skip Bayless
And LeBron just shrank. He closed up. He had them. If he had stepped on their throats and they'd gone up three games to one, and that. This is the 2015 files. The first one against the Warriors. You got me that. You could make a go case, but instead he shrinks and disappears in games. Here we go again. Four, five and six. Right on schedule. And they lose in six games. So he couldn't close deals. All the great clutch shots that Jordan made, they closed deals. LeBron's made a few clutch shots, but they never mattered. They were never meaningful. They never ended series or games or championships.
- [30:01]
Will
No, you see, that's where you're trying to pick and choose, right? You want to talk about clutch games, but then you don't want to talk about how he's dragged so many teams to the finals, right? And he's the one dragged the.
- [30:11]
Skip Bayless
He's the one.
- [30:12]
Will
And he's the one hitting the game winning shots, right? The same way he took Toronto out, Right? The amount of times he did that, countless times. You don't want to talk about that. You want to only talk about when Jordan does it in the Finals. As if Jordan's career was only six years. He's six on the Finals, but his career isn't six years. He had six to seven years before that and then he had another two years in the Washington Wizards at 40 years old. We don't want to talk about LeBron.
- [30:34]
Skip Bayless
At 40 now, okay? I don't know.
- [30:35]
Will
They literally tried to drag him out the court. Gilbert Arenas talked about how they literally was ready to hand him the keys and get Jordan out of there.
- [30:41]
Skip Bayless
By 40, they were two.
- [30:42]
Will
He was a cancer.
- [30:43]
Skip Bayless
Ceremonial years. He wasn't a cancer. He was running the show. He was going to be the GM and the head coach and the fading superstar's years don't count then, okay, the last two years, I don't count.
- [30:56]
Will
That's crazy. Okay, everything about LeBron, you want to count everything about LeBron, but then take some years out.
- [31:02]
Skip Bayless
He took three years off. He retired because they ran his coach out the back door in Chicago and he said, I'm out. Well, it was on pride and principle. He just said, I'm out. I'm not going to play anymore. And he came back.
- [31:15]
Will
Greatness means keep playing year in and year out. Every year LeBron keeps extending his career because the love of the game and that matters.
- [31:22]
Skip Bayless
Okay?
- [31:22]
Will
Right.
- [31:23]
Skip Bayless
His heart is still in it and he's going. Jordan won 10 scoring titles to LeBron's one scoring title. Jordan was the defensive player of the year in 1989. He's the defensive player. LeBron was never a defensive player. Nine times. Jordan was first team all defense. I'll give you five times early in his career, LeBron was first team all defense.
- [31:43]
Will
I would argue that LeBron should have gotten way more MVPs because he was always the best player all those years, but they don't count it. So now we're going to take away accolades for him.
- [31:51]
Skip Bayless
You know, Jordan was the best player for 11 straight years in Chicago. He was. It was just ridiculous how much better he was.
- [31:58]
Will
I'm not arguing that.
- [31:59]
Skip Bayless
Okay, all right, so let's, let's look at. Let's look at LeBron's buzzer beaters. Okay? Because I know him by heart and.
- [32:06]
Will
He has more buzzer beaters than Jordan.
- [32:07]
Skip Bayless
No, he doesn't. It's nine to eight, Jordan. It's nine to eight. I'm not cherry picking. I'm not. Semantics. I'm just telling you the truth. It's nine to eight, Jordan. And I'm giving the eight. That, that thing the other night.
- [32:18]
Will
I'm sorry, wait, you're only talking about the playoffs.
- [32:20]
Skip Bayless
No, I'm doing total regular season of playoffs. The other night. Please.
- [32:24]
Will
Fact.
- [32:24]
Skip Bayless
LeBron had a little tip in at the buzzer. Do you remember this on Lucas missed shot. And LeBron's just right at the rim and just tips it over the rim and you have to count that as a buzzer beater. And it was the weakest, easiest butter buzzer beater in the history of buzzer beaters. Okay. All right.
- [32:40]
Will
Okay, cool.
- [32:40]
Skip Bayless
Okay, so. So here, here are your. I'm going to get to Jordan's in a minute. But. But I'm watching every game LeBron plays. And it took him 477 NBA games before he finally hit a walk off shot. And it was on Ronnie Turioff. It was at Golden State. This is probably way before your time because this was January 23rd of 2009. It was a regular season game. Okay? And he hit it and I'm like, way to go. I stood up and gave him a standing ovation. And then he hit the shot heard round the world against Orlando in Game 2 at Cleveland. You'll remember this in the year that they ended up losing to the Magic when.
- [33:15]
Will
But the game is more than just game winning. Shots. You know that, right?
- [33:18]
Skip Bayless
No.
- [33:18]
Will
Right now, you're going down a rabbit hole. If you want to talk about, like, clutch shots, end of game. But there's 47 minutes before that.
- [33:25]
Skip Bayless
You gotta play. Here's the point. LeBron was born without a clutch gene. It's as simple as that. He just was. Jordan is the greatest clutch shooter I ever saw. And LeBron can be the weakest mental, mentally superstar I've ever witnessed, because he's afraid of the late game free throw line and in late and close situations. Since LeBron came into the league, he's the worst by far.
- [33:49]
Will
Why is basketball so much about the last 30 seconds when there's 47 minutes and 30 seconds in the game?
- [33:55]
Skip Bayless
You're trying to make a go case.
- [33:56]
Will
So much go case. Exactly.
- [33:58]
Skip Bayless
And you're trying to make it over Michael Jordan.
- [34:00]
Will
Exactly.
- [34:02]
Skip Bayless
You did a good job. You did a good job. Way to go. You're gonna need that cross around your neck.
- [34:11]
Will
Yes. Yes, I will.
- [34:13]
Skip Bayless
I don't think LeBron's the goat.
- [34:14]
Will
I don't think Michael Jordan's the goat either, though.
- [34:16]
Skip Bayless
Oh, so we're going a different direction.
- [34:18]
Will
I think we're gonna go in the direction of Stephen Curry, and I'm gonna point out your simple statement in one word.
- [34:24]
Skip Bayless
Steph Curry, you said laughably, okay?
- [34:27]
Will
And to me, that's bigger than Michael.
- [34:30]
Skip Bayless
Jordan versus LeBron James.
- [34:32]
Will
You are simply hitting and taking a hit, a personal shot at the entire game of basketball that we are watching today. And to me, you bring up competition. I think seeing Steph Curry and LeBron James and have go head to head in their rivalry. LeBron always posts on Instagram. He says, iron sharpens iron. Where was the iron sharpening iron with Michael Jordan when he was winning all of his championships? I understand that 60 is something that is perfect. You really can't debate it. But what you can do is say, all right, it was a beautiful thing. We're going to leave it in the past because there is greatness in front of our eyes. And it's LeBron James and it's Stephen Curry, and then we get into LeBron versus Steph, and I'm going to sit here and say, steph Curry, if he wins a fifth championship, which he will, which is why I'm saying Steph's the goat. If he wins that fifth title, he is the greatest of all time.
- [35:23]
Skip Bayless
Okay. Do you realize that Steph Curry and company had a 3 to 1 lead on LeBron without. There's. There's no Kevin Durant involved here. Right. It's just Steph. So it's. I think you would agree that was Steph's team. Right? There's Clay and there's Draymond, and we get all that, but it's Steph Curry or Bus to me. Game five, okay, Draymond Green, you've got. He's gone. He's gone. So you don't have. Because LeBron made him gone. If Steph is the Goat, he's got two out of three at home to close the deal. All he's got to do is win one of three and two out of the three are at Oracle, and he can't pull it off because he's not that guy. He's not the Goat. And what happened in Game 7 at Oracle? Remember LeBron's chase down block? Remember this? Yeah. Kyrie hits the game winning shot. In the fourth quarter of that game, Steph Curry went one of six and he went one of four from three. Well, I'm sorry, one a five from three. And he had a terrible turnover with two minutes left where he tried to throw it behind his back and threw it in the fifth row. And it was a. It was a key turning point in that game. And without Steph disappearing in the fourth quarter, LeBron and Kyrie cannot do what they ended up doing. And after they blew the 3 to 1 lead, what happened on July 4th that summer, Steph Curry led a contingent in a private plane, and they fly all the way across the country out to the tip of Long island to visit Kevin Durant. And Steph Curry got down on one knee and said, you've got to come save us. You, Kevin Durant, have to come save us because we can't beat LeBron James without you.
- [36:59]
Will
I understand. I understand that.
- [37:01]
Skip Bayless
So you're disqualified as the Goat. If you have to go beg somebody.
- [37:04]
Will
You'Re not disqualified because LeBron James, everyone.
- [37:06]
Skip Bayless
Here is talking about LeBron as the.
- [37:08]
Will
GOAT, and he did a very similar thing.
- [37:10]
Skip Bayless
When you look at Steph Curry and his greatness, I get that he choked in that moment.
- [37:14]
Will
The 31 lead.
- [37:15]
Skip Bayless
You're never going to be able to beat that.
- [37:17]
Will
But what he did in 22 against the Celtics and what he's doing now, you love Tom Brady. His best years are ahead of him, and I'm predicting that right now.
- [37:25]
Skip Bayless
Really?
- [37:26]
Will
Yes, 1,000%. I think the next five years of Stephen Curry are going to be his best five years.
- [37:31]
Skip Bayless
We don't know that. I'll bet against that because he's 37 years of age. Interesting way to Go. Good job. How are you, sir?
- [37:42]
Will
Good to see you.
- [37:42]
Skip Bayless
Dodger fan.
- [37:43]
Will
Right now, I gotta school you on this. LeBron is the goat. He is the goat. I know MJ6 and, oh. We're kind of just, like, mystified with that. But LeBron's longevity for 22 years, the built. The work that he's done since 03.
- [37:55]
Skip Bayless
Okay?
- [37:56]
Will
And he's been in the shadow of MJ for 22 years. He hasn't been, you know, MJ. Who did he look up to? He was with magic. You know, Magic, that smiling face. Love magic. But he wasn't as intimidating as being in Jordan's shadow for 22 years.
- [38:10]
Skip Bayless
Okay, all right.
- [38:12]
Will
I know the 4 and 6 in the finals, but, man, 10 NBA finals appearances. And, oh, just one more thing. I know we've talked about this 20, 21, you know, finals. The finals was the Nets versus the Bucs. 2018, it was Rockets, Warriors. Jordan had to deal with that in the East. Oh, he wasn't pushed to a game seven. He got pushed to a game seven in the Eastern Conference semifinals in 92. He got pushed to the game seven.
- [38:34]
Skip Bayless
And 98 in the Eastern Conference finals.
- [38:36]
Will
He's been pushed before. He still triumphs, Jordan, you know that six. And we're always going to be mystified from that all around.
- [38:43]
Skip Bayless
Okay, it's LeBron. I'm going to give you your first point. LeBron James is the longevity king. I mean, it's unquestioned. He is the most durable superstar ever. I'm watching a game the other night, and he. He hooks his thumb on the rim and pulls it. And I thought, oh, God. Because that's your shooting hand. I thought, man, are you gone? Nope. They go tape it up, and he goes right back in. Incredible, blessed durability. That's how you play. 22 years at age 40, LeBron has now played in the regular season 60,000 minutes to Jordan's 40,000 minutes. So it's an apple and an orange almost. And if we go total, it's 71,000. If I add the playoff minutes in 71,000 to 48,000. Aha. That's 23,000. That's a magic number that LeBron tried to steal from Jordan, and he shouldn't have, because LeBron wished a lot of this on himself. He right away declared himself, I, I got next. I'm the next Jordan.
- [39:39]
Will
How many times during LeBron's 22 illustrious career, how many times do you take a break? I know Jordan's done that a few times.
- [39:45]
Skip Bayless
He got One break where they won their last championship in the bubble, the Mickey Mouse championship. Is that all one. He got like a four month break ahead of that. And it served him well because not 18 months.
- [39:56]
Will
He didn't play minor league. He didn't go in the minor leagues. He didn't go try to go be an owner of the league. He's gone 22 straight years playing in that game.
- [40:03]
Skip Bayless
Longevity. Came so many playoffs and make you the goat that makes you the longevity.
- [40:07]
Will
Finals appearances.
- [40:08]
Skip Bayless
Okay.
- [40:09]
Will
MJ couldn't get to 10. He couldn't get past the Pistons, just like LeBron couldn't get.
- [40:12]
Skip Bayless
He did get past the Pistons finally after. There is a book written about it called the Jordan Rules, in which it detailed the rules with which the Detroit Pistons, the bad boys, had to stop Michael Jordan.
- [40:24]
Will
And thankfully he got Scotty to death. Thankfully he got Scotty during that time because, you know, and he also had a head coach, Phil Jackson during that time, once they figured that out. But who did LeBron have as a head coach during this, during that time? Mike Brown. Mike Brown is no Phil Jackson.
- [40:39]
Skip Bayless
Nope.
- [40:40]
Will
He had Antoine Jameson. He had Ilgauskis. That's why he had to go to Miami. He had to go over there and team up. He learned how to win. And when he.
- [40:47]
Skip Bayless
Eric Spoelstra is a real live coach. Like, I would bank on Eric Spoelstra and remember Pat Riley was coaching the coach in that situation. So that was optimal. That was ideal. And LeBron needed a big brother to teach him how to win. And Dwyane Wade was that guy. Okay. All right. Good job.
- [41:05]
Will
You're the man.
- [41:06]
Skip Bayless
Way to go. Thank you.
- [41:09]
Will
I think my biggest gripe with your argument is the word laughably. I think your top 10 NBA players of all time is well documented. You've got people like Larry Bird in there.
- [41:21]
Skip Bayless
I do.
- [41:21]
Will
You've got Shaq in there.
- [41:22]
Skip Bayless
I do.
- [41:23]
Will
You know, those two guys within the last three to five years have deferred to LeBron and called them and called LeBron the goat.
- [41:30]
Skip Bayless
I'm not sure Larry Bird has. But. But Shaq on TV will.
- [41:33]
Will
Verbatim. Verbatim. Larry Bird said Lebron is one of, if not the greatest ever. You have him out, I think in number seven.
- [41:40]
Skip Bayless
I do. Nine, actually.
- [41:41]
Will
Nine.
- [41:41]
Skip Bayless
Just, just real quick. I got obviously Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Kareem, Tim Duncan, Bill Russell, Kobe, 7, Bird 8, and LeBron 9. Because I'm taking Kobe and Larry Bird as clutch players over LeBron James every day and every night.
- [41:58]
Will
So if you look this up, Shaq also said that LeBron is the greatest ever. So with that being said, if Shaq is almost. If Shaq is deferred to LeBron and said he's the greatest ever, that would at least make him three. He deferred to that. He gave him three. So the word laughably is really crazy to me because Also, you've called LeBron weak. You've called him. You called him mentally weak, mentally soft. It takes a lot of mental fortitude to play in the NBA for 22 years. It takes a lot of mental fortitude to be, you know, called the king at age 13, 14 and live up to all those expectations without a hiccup off the court, without being, you know, without being in the news for a negative reason. It takes a lot of mental fortitude to do that.
- [42:38]
Skip Bayless
I give you all that. But we're just talking about your performance on the court.
- [42:41]
Will
Sure. But, yeah, he's the greatest, the most points ever.
- [42:44]
Skip Bayless
This is what really kills me about what I call you LeBron supporters, your fanatic about it. You're blind witness because you're blind to what happens. You expunge his record, you scrub his record. You don't want to hear all the negatives, and they just pile up. I call them epic fails, and I've given a couple so far, and I'm going to give a few more if we can go back to that fateful game state six of the 2013 finals. I don't know if it's before your time, but I'm sure you were watching. It's at Miami, and the spurs have a chance to close it out in six games, and they're up five points with 18 seconds left. And I was a Spurs fan at this point, and it was unheard of to blow a lead, especially in a game of that magnitude, that way down the stretch of that game. Even in the final minute, with 40 seconds left and 20 seconds left, this is game six closeout potential. LeBron had two unforced error turnovers that were horrendous. Even. I'm not a LeBron fan, but I sat back and I said, what are you doing, man? He's unraveling. He made 1 3, but then he had to take a 3 to tie the game with 6 seconds left. And he, as I say, which would.
- [43:57]
Will
Be a clutch shot.
- [43:57]
Skip Bayless
Okay, it would be, but he looked it. He bounded it.
- [44:00]
Will
One thing about the epic failures. About the epic failures.
- [44:03]
Skip Bayless
Yeah.
- [44:03]
Will
Would you call Jordan getting swept in the first round three times in epic failure?
- [44:07]
Skip Bayless
Nope. Because they weren't epic because they weren't Magnitude games. Because these are in the Finals. I'm going to the Finals. So it took Ray Allen making the greatest clutch shot I have ever witnessed. Because remember, it's a Le Brick and it's a long way out. And Chris Bosh goes out and tracks it down and kicks it out.
- [44:28]
Will
To call someone, Lebrick, while having the most points ever, okay, is wild. Now, I know you're a Jordan guy. It paid me to say that Jordan's been swept three times in the first round because I'm a Jordan guy, too. But to laughably say that LeBron and Jordan aren't even in the same conversation, that's wild. It's a discredit to basketball.
- [44:43]
Skip Bayless
I know you watched insane. How about the Western Conference finals just two years ago against Denver? Okay, so the Lakers wind up getting swept, but four straight times they go to the fourth quarter, right there. It's a. It's a winnable game for LeBron and company. First two are in Denver, second two at home. If you combine his shooting stats for the 4 4th quarters, he's 7 of 23. That's horrible. That's how you lose games. And he was one of 10 from three in those four combined fourth quarters. And in the closeout game at, as I call it, the crypt here in Los Angeles, in the final seconds of the game, LeBron gets two shots to tie the game. Two two point shots. And neither of them, he gets up to the rim. And I'm like, what are you doing, man? You're better than that. And yet the blind witnesses say, oh, we didn't see that. We don't want to hear about that. So we fast forward one more year, because last year in the playoffs, they get Denver again, but this time it's in the first round. And games one and two at Denver. LeBron pouts in the fourth quarter because he can be a mentally weak diva and he won't shoot in the fourth quarter of a winnable game. I'm going, what are you doing, man? Just take over. You can do this. You can rise above Joker and Jamal because you think he's the goat. The goat rises above because the game is begging to be won by LeBron James. And he won't shoot until there are three minutes left and the game's out of control. Game two, he's got Jamal on him. He makes a sweet move. It's Jordanesque on Brian Russell in game six at Utah. And we've got LeBron James. This is game two. Just last year in the Playoffs at Denver. It's going to change the series. He gets a wide open shot from three. It's like a free throw from three and he Labricks it. And I'm like, what are you doing, man? Because Kobe's going to make that shot. Jordan's obviously going to make that shot. I think Shaq could have made that shot. It was so easy. Seriously.
- [46:35]
Will
But what do you have to say about shaq Deferring to LeBron? He said it.
- [46:40]
Skip Bayless
Pr.
- [46:41]
Will
He said it. Why would he say that, though? Why does the killer say that?
- [46:46]
Skip Bayless
Oh, I got it, I got it, I got it. You've been chomping to get up here.
- [46:50]
Will
Yeah, I've been ready for this. All right, but first I gotta say this. It could be sga. It could be sda. You can call the CIA. Lakers in five. Let's gotta get out the way.
- [46:59]
Skip Bayless
All right, Lakers in five. To do what?
- [47:01]
Will
To win the Finals. Win every game.
- [47:03]
Skip Bayless
To win this year's finals.
- [47:04]
Will
Your friend Shannon Sharpe. Yeah, but anyways, let's get back to the prompt. Okay. I like facts. Facts, numbers. That's. That's something you can't lie about. Okay. I like to propose, I like to say that LeBron is the greatest player of all time because of several reasons. He's the only player to be in the 30 point club, 10 point, 10k club, 10k club for assists and rebounds. He's the only player to be positioned in as a point guard, shooting guard, small forward, power forward and center at the same time. Okay, you can. You have the debate that, you know, Michael Jordan or LeBron James is the goat in longevity. He's the goat just entirely because of what he's able to accomplish. What he's doing at age 40. He's breaking people's ankles. He's dunking on people at age 40.
- [47:43]
Skip Bayless
I agree with you. I've never seen anything like this guy at age 40.
- [47:46]
Will
And he's averaging as much points as he did in 2013 as an MVP. He averaged 27, 7 and 7. He's averaging 25, 8 and 8 as.
- [47:54]
Skip Bayless
A 40 year old. He's actually shooting the ball better than he has in 22 years, both from the free throw line and the three point line combined. His shooting stats are the best ever. They don't rank highly this year in the NBA, but again, he's all the way up to 77% from the free throw line and 38% from the three point line. What took him so long? I'm like, what have you been doing? I thought you were in the lab. This is year 22 and it took you this long to become an average free throw shooter. An average.
- [48:22]
Will
Okay, what he's doing at 22. Yeah, I'm doing stats. In fact, you can take the last like say five 40 year old players that played in the NBA that played at least 40 games. All right, you can take Mono, Ginobili, Dirk Nowski, Vince Carter, Jason, you got me. You can take all their retired numbers come together and they won't average what LeBron's averaging right now.
- [48:40]
Skip Bayless
Does that make him the goat? Longevity goat?
- [48:43]
Will
It's part of it. I think it's a part of it. And you went to the fact that Jordan is the most clutch player ever. LeBron is actually more clutch than Jordan was. There was. There's a website called Fadeaway World. You can look it up. They the criteria for clutch is anything in the last minute.
- [48:56]
Skip Bayless
That's not what my stats say or scream.
- [48:59]
Will
Well, I'm telling you what I found, okay? So I found that they said that clutch means in last minute of a fourth quarter or overtime game with at least 20, 20 field goals attempted. LeBron James is fourth overall hitting 54 shots. Jordan is 27th, hitting nine of the shots out of 31.
- [49:18]
Skip Bayless
All right, let me just remind you, when Jordan made clutch shots, they really, really mattered. They endured. They were historic clutch shots. Because he first introduced himself as a freshman at North Carolina in the 1982 the College, the NCAA championship game. He makes the walk off shot, a jump shot. And Dean Smith called his number, not James Worthy's number, not Sam Perkins number. He called Michael Jordan's number as a freshman. He was called Mike Jordan at that point. And then remember, he introduced himself to the NBA world against Craig Ehlo in Cleveland. Game five, this is the closeout game. This is for all the marbles. And he hits a hanging walk off shot jumper over Craig Ehlo. And it became iconic. We all see. You can just call it up on YouTube right now and look at the highlight. Look at his celebration. It won the series. Okay? His first playoff series. And then obviously I was there on press row courtside. Game 6 at Utah. Little subtle push off Brian Russell against the Jazz. And he hangs and holds the pose just beyond the free throw line and rips it. And it's a walk off. Stockton got some heave at the buzzer, but it was a walk off. It won the championship. It won game six. It closed them out. All of his shots had magnitude Jordan. But then I look at LeBron and he all of his walk offs and I'm giving him that little tip in the other day. Okay, so let's call it seven walk off shots. They didn't matter. They didn't get you anywhere. They're three in the playoffs and they're pretty good. But what do they say about the blind squirrel? He finds an acorn every once in a while. If you're going to play 71,000 minutes, you're going to hit a few walk offs here and there. When you play that much longer than Michael Jordan did, way to go. Thank you. Everybody did great. Thank you.
- [51:07]
Will
My eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Evglis. After an initial dosing phase of 16 weeks, about 4 in 10 people take achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. A 250mg per 2ml injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Ebglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to Ebglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Epglis. Before starting Epglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection searching for real relief. Ask your doctor about ebglis and visit ebgliss.lilly.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979.
- [52:08]
Skip Bayless
Next claim is Patrick Mahomes is dramatically overrated.
- [52:16]
Will
Oh, sorry. Boys, represent Nick Wright. Shout out Nick Wright.
- [52:19]
Skip Bayless
How are you, sir?
- [52:19]
Will
Skib. How are you, my friend?
- [52:21]
Skip Bayless
I think I know where this is.
- [52:24]
Will
Alrighty, Skip. So in order for someone to be overrated, they cannot be overrated in a vacuum that doesn't exist.
- [52:28]
Skip Bayless
You have to be overrated compared to.
- [52:30]
Will
A standard or compared to a player. Give me 30 seconds and give me how he's overrated with those parameters because I can't go off just that.
- [52:37]
Skip Bayless
I only need two seconds. Okay, Tom Brady.
- [52:40]
Will
Okay, so the same period. So the same guy in the 2010 wild card at home in Gillette. The house Brady built got blown out.
- [52:48]
Skip Bayless
By Joe Flacco, 33 to 14.
- [52:50]
Will
He threw for, in Skip's terms, a grand total of 152 yards and three interceptions. And got punked by Joe Flacco. That guy?
- [52:58]
Skip Bayless
No, the guy who went to 10 Super Bowls and one.
- [53:01]
Will
And got outplayed by Eli Manning and twice.
- [53:03]
Skip Bayless
And Bill Belichick cost him two Super Bowls. He also won him three. Okay.
- [53:07]
Will
Tom Brady has never won a Super bowl without a top 10 defense ever. Period. End of conversation. Pro Football Reference. Look it up.
- [53:12]
Skip Bayless
Okay, so. But this is about Patrick Mahomes. And I think you're ducking and dodging the issue. What are you talking about? You got to defend his super bowl performance. If you want me to say. Because I don't think you can.
- [53:23]
Will
How can you bomb a wild card game at home in Gillette and then say, oh, you made the most important.
- [53:29]
Skip Bayless
Game of the year and didn't play your best?
- [53:31]
Will
I. This is bizarre to me. Let me make this real fast. Greatest stadium on world in the world. 142.2 decibels, baby.
- [53:39]
Skip Bayless
This is 2018 AFC Championship game where Patrick never touched the ball and the.
- [53:43]
Will
Chiefs wanted the rules changed. They didn't do it, but they did it for Buffalo Bills.
- [53:45]
Skip Bayless
Do you remember what Tom Brady did in your house? Did three times in a row? He fixed third and ten, three third and tens in a row.
- [53:53]
Will
You're right.
- [53:53]
Skip Bayless
And he goes Edelman, Edelman Gronk ball.
- [53:56]
Will
Game the same way Patrick Mahomes In Super Bowl LVIII, down three points in overtime, two fourth downs, a third, a second and 14. Cause Marquez Valdez scantling forgot which way the end zone was and ran backwards and he converted and converted and converted. And he hit who in the end zone? McColl Hardman for a touchdown back to back. Now let me ask you this. Let me ask you.
- [54:18]
Skip Bayless
That was his one and only great Super Bowl.
- [54:20]
Will
It was unbelievable. All time clutch. Also about this. Since 2001, there has been 125 NFL playoff drives where the score was seven points or less in the fourth quarter or in overtime. The rate of success of that is 40%. Thomas Edward Patrick Brady Jr. As you.
- [54:37]
Skip Bayless
Like to put it, went 5 for.
- [54:39]
Will
11 in that situation, which is 46%. That's pretty dang good. That's not bad. Okay, Patrick Mahomes went seven. What do you think of that one, Skip?
- [54:48]
Skip Bayless
Tell me.
- [54:48]
Will
Come on, buddy.
- [54:49]
Skip Bayless
Shout out. Let's get to the facts here. Let's get to his first super bowl against Jimmy Garoppolo. Really? Okay, you guys are down 20 to 10, late third quarter, and he throws a horrendous interception where I'm saying, what are you doing, man? Then early fourth quarter, you're still down 20 to 10, and he throws an even worse interception. And you're sitting somewhere, I guess at home, and you're saying, patrick, what are you doing? We're dead. And all of a sudden it gets to be third and forever. Do you remember it's third and 15 at the 35. And all of a sudden Patrick Holmes drops back and there's a rusher in his face. And he basically goes like this, like. Like, let me just throw it as far as he can. He's throwing money. Dude throws a punt. That Tyreek had to come back and wait for a fair catch. That's how bad it was, okay? And that saved the game. And yet Jimmy garoppolo on the fourth. Fourth quarter, goes 3 for 11 with an interception for 36 total yards. And he missed Emanuel Sanders. Or we're having a different conversation. That's how you survived the first Super Bowl. The second Super bowl is against Thomas Edward Patrick Brady Jr.
- [55:52]
Will
He had no offensive line.
- [55:53]
Skip Bayless
Okay? Literally no offense. I keep hearing that five of us could have been out there, but it was 31 to 9. Tom Brady never lost a Super bowl with a blowout loss. 31 Record for rushing yards behind the line of scrimmage. Okay, yeah, that's what I keep hearing. But I think he was just bad in that game. No touchdowns, two interceptions against the first Eagles. Super bowl against Jalen. Jalen throws for 3. 04 to Patrick's 182. He only threw for 182 yards. And the Eagles are driving to make it 21 7. And Jalen hurts late second quarter. Just loses the handle on the football. And I'm like, what are you doing, man? And it bounces one time to Nick Bolton who scoops it and scores with it. Takes it to the house and it changes the game because it saved you from 21 to seven down and the Patrick in the fourth quarter. Kaderius Tony returns that punt. You remember that 65 yards? I do. Okay. I didn't think Patrick played all that well in that game. Jalen outplayed.
- [56:50]
Will
No, he did not.
- [56:50]
Skip Bayless
That's absurd. Well, 304 to 182 and yards pass.
- [56:53]
Will
Patrick Mahomes was all time greatness.
- [56:55]
Skip Bayless
He played a perfect second, all right. And then could not have been better. I gave you the one at Las Vegas. That was Tremendous. Because every once in a while, you know, Patrick Mahomes can be really good. And he was really good. Most talented quarterback ever. Just recently we had to watch 40 to 22 Eagles and Patrick Mahomes had a QBR in that game. From 11. There is no roster 0 to 100. He had another roster from the AFC.
- [57:17]
Will
That would have hung. 11 would not have. That is the best single season roster. Shout out Eagles. Best single season roster I've ever seen. Where were they? Not great. Jalen Hurts is a top seven quarterback. Top seven quarterback. You could say he was the worst.
- [57:27]
Skip Bayless
Starter on their team. That team rolled everywhere.
- [57:28]
Will
They lost one game after week four to the commanders in a really funny what's kind of going on, Jalen gets hurt type situation.
- [57:35]
Skip Bayless
Why the Eagles to win it all in August.
- [57:37]
Will
You also picked the Ravens.
- [57:38]
Skip Bayless
Okay, I did. Okay, but. But again, the Eagles won it all, didn't they? They did.
- [57:43]
Will
They were the best team last year. But Patrick Mahomes is the best player.
- [57:45]
Skip Bayless
Okay? And that's a fact. Okay, but let's look at the last three years, can we? Because very quietly, under the radar, with no real criticism at all. Patrick Mahomes passing yards have dropped for three straight years. His touchdown passes have dropped for three straight years. And he's still only 29. So it's not like he's at the end of his career. So he led the the NFL and QBR in 2022 and then in 23 he drops to eighth and last year he was eighth. So he's become just a pretty good quarterback.
- [58:14]
Will
Truly. Hey, Truly. Nice to meet you.
- [58:19]
Skip Bayless
Nice to meet you, sir. Wait, I like that picture. Yeah.
- [58:22]
Will
So I think I bring some credibility here. Your guy, my guy, our guy, Tom Brady.
- [58:26]
Skip Bayless
Our guy.
- [58:27]
Will
I think Tom is a really good frame for evaluating Mahomes and being overrated. Yes. Brady has seven Super Bowls. Mahomes can't be penalized for not living that long yet. So in seven years as a starter, three Super bowl wins, two MVPs, he has 7,000 more passing yards than Tom Brady. More interceptions, more touchdowns, fewer interceptions. And I think what you always come back to is that Brady always came through in the big moments and Mahomes shrinks. And I can tell you Mahomes has risen in big moments and Brady has shrunk. Mahomes and Brady are the only two people on the history of planet Earth to lead a game winning touchdown drive in overtime in the Super Bowl. Mahomes led game winning drives in the other two Super Bowls too. To win the game. Brady did not do that against the Eagles in 2017. He did not do that in 2012 versus the Giants. That all pains me. So I think they're very close. In fact, I would even say they're in lockstep through their first seven years.
- [59:24]
Skip Bayless
Of point of order though. Our guy, Tom Brady in New England under Belichick, they win six Super Bowls with six game winning drives in fourth quarter overtime from Tom Brady. So you got to give him that because that's extraordinary. That kind of slams the door on the debate.
- [59:43]
Will
I don't think it's fair to say Mahomes hasn't yet won six Super Bowls.
- [59:45]
Skip Bayless
Okay, so we can.
- [59:46]
Will
We have to count, and I do.
- [59:47]
Skip Bayless
Point this out in the first Eli Super Bowl. Brady did what he's always done. He drove the Patriots. Yeah, all the way down. Hits Randy Moss for the touchdown with two minutes left.
- [59:57]
Will
Yep.
- [59:58]
Skip Bayless
And all of a sudden it's 14 to 10 patriots. So wait a second. Eli needs not just a field goal. He needs to go score a touchdown. He goes 83 yards in 12 plays against the vaunted Belichick defense. And it took the David Tyree face and he jumps a little too early, comes down a little too early and can't hang on to an interception.
- [60:18]
Will
The key thing you're saying 14 points in the Super Bowl.
- [60:22]
Skip Bayless
All right, 14 points. That defense was hellacious good. And they knew they were good.
- [60:27]
Will
That four, when the Bucks defense is hellacious good and the Eagles defense is hilarious good. Mahomes is a bum.
- [60:32]
Skip Bayless
Okay, but didn't Brady do what he should have done to beat that hellacious defense? Isn't it 14 to 10, Brady at that point, shouldn't Belichick be able to stop Eli freaking Manning?
- [60:43]
Will
Should have.
- [60:43]
Skip Bayless
Right? When you got 83 yards of turf in your favor, you just gotta shut him down somewhere, somehow. You gotta stop him. It is tough. He can't kick a field goal.
- [60:54]
Will
It is tough when the refs don't call the five holding penalties on the helmet catch. When Asante Samuel, your shutdown corner, drops the easy interception.
- [61:02]
Skip Bayless
And then the other one for Tom Brady. That just slays me. I have nightmares about. I wake up in a cold sweat over it. Is that Belichick's defense allowed the backup quarterback of the Eagles, Nick Foles, to score 40 points because Malcolm Butler mysteriously is benched for the entire game.
- [61:20]
Will
That was the beginning of the game.
- [61:21]
Skip Bayless
Played the most snaps on your defense in the regular season is benched.
- [61:25]
Will
That was the beginning.
- [61:26]
Skip Bayless
Why? Nobody says why. I still to this day I'll Go to my grave not knowing why Malcolm Butler was benched in that game.
- [61:33]
Will
Nobody knows why.
- [61:34]
Skip Bayless
And yet you said, well, Brady didn't in the game with the game winning drive, remember?
- [61:37]
Will
Choked.
- [61:38]
Skip Bayless
He threw a Hail Mary, a beautiful Hail Mary to Gronk in the end zone. And they tackle Gronk like we're relying.
- [61:46]
Will
On a Hail Mary here. What about, what about the Brandon Graham drive? That one before where he did not deliver, he did not come through.
- [61:51]
Skip Bayless
It was a great play by Brandon Graham. Yeah, he got sacked, he got rocked.
- [61:54]
Will
Okay, okay, but what about. And then Mahomes again? Three. Three super bowl wins, three game winning drivers.
- [61:59]
Skip Bayless
Are you saying that Patrick Mahomes is better than your guy, Tom Brady?
- [62:03]
Will
This pains me, you know, this is our guy. I'm saying first seven years as a starter, they are step for step. In fact, Mahomes is superior statistically.
- [62:11]
Skip Bayless
Accolades Quick stat. Tied on Super Bowls over the last two regular seasons. Patrick Mahomes, 25 interceptions thrown is second only to Baker Mayfield's 26. So all of a sudden he's trying to live up to the hype. He's trying to do too many things, he's holding the ball too long and it's not working the way it worked for the first four years. Over the last three seasons. During the regular season, I'm in his. All right, good job. Sit down. How are you?
- [62:47]
Will
I'm doing well, Skip, so I really have to fight you here. First off, you're going to say he's way overrated. And you're comparing him about maybe arguably the best quarterback to ever play the game.
- [62:57]
Skip Bayless
Well, not arguably, I mean, well, but hold on.
- [62:59]
Will
Well, I mean, we could talk about that too, but that's not the argument we're going to talk about here. Because there's a guy named Joe Montana that played this game too. But ultimately you're comparing him against the second, like I said, second best quarterback to ever possibly play the game. This guy's been to eight AFC championships in a row. The guy has done. I watched both those Super Bowls. I watched him lose the last one. I was real happy about that. I also watched him come back out in the second half and tear the Eagles defense apart. Now, you could argue that our defensive coordinator was ready to stay in Arizona and not finish out the game, but he still. I don't care how many drugs you had to put in him, what he had to do to repair that ankle, he was the one single handedly that kind of won that game. I could say that he was the one that Called the defensive holding because he was the one that was crying about and he got the call. But really the play before that was when he ran for 35 yards to be able to get down the field. That play was really what cemented that game. And I knew at that point that we weren't going to be able to win because he was going to be able to actually just finish out the clock.
- [64:08]
Skip Bayless
Can you explain what happened to Jalen just losing the handle on the football? When you're driving to go up 21 to 7, you're already at midfield.
- [64:15]
Will
So I can't argue about that. All I can say is that, hey, everybody else said that, that the field was a little slippery. I wasn't playing on it. You know, if you slip a little bit and it slips out of your hands, say things happen. There are bounces that happen in football all the time.
- [64:27]
Skip Bayless
Okay.
- [64:28]
Will
So ultimately I can't argue about that. But we were still up at halftime. We still came back in. We had the opportunity to go ahead and keep running and we didn't have that. We didn't do it. We didn't finish the job.
- [64:39]
Skip Bayless
Did Patrick Mahomes return that punt in the fourth quarter?
- [64:41]
Will
No, he didn't return that punt yet. But ultimately you know what he did though? He did the game winning drive to win the game.
- [64:47]
Skip Bayless
Right.
- [64:48]
Will
So. And he's done that a lot, you know, and when you're comparing against other quarterbacks right now, I say right now in the NFL as it sits today, I can't name another quarterback who's better than him.
- [65:00]
Skip Bayless
Okay.
- [65:00]
Will
And if you're going to use that like using that, that doesn't tell me overrated. That tells me that he's a great quarterback. And the fact that you're going to just call him overrated just because Brady played it a lot longer time ago I would love to have seen. Yeah, like I said that that one super bowl that he played that Brady played against him, he was still recovering from, you know, the head and like I said, he was throwing balls. He was throwing balls to his receivers, hitting them in the helmets and stuff like that. And they weren't catching the ball.
- [65:29]
Skip Bayless
There was a lot of denied it.
- [65:31]
Will
Was 31, but there was two touchdowns.
- [65:33]
Skip Bayless
Two touchdowns.
- [65:34]
Will
What was that one defense they called the flag on it because what's his face.
- [65:38]
Skip Bayless
That was to your point about all those AFC championship games. You realize that he lucked into playing into the worst division in football over his seven years. Because if I look at the Raiders, they have the sixth worst record first Off Broncos.
- [65:52]
Will
Oh my gosh. We could talk about this. I mean. Oh, let's, let's talk about the. What was that pass against the Oaklands? We won't go back back to that far either with Brady and he shouldn't have even won that game.
- [66:01]
Skip Bayless
The tuck rule.
- [66:02]
Will
Yeah, yeah, the tuck rule.
- [66:03]
Skip Bayless
Oh, I'll give you that.
- [66:04]
Will
But I mean, ultimately, Patrick Mahomes is a five star quarterback. He's probably the best quarterback in this league right now. And I will go as far as to say is that he won that first super bowl for Kansas City because I know Andy Reid still trying to figure out what play to call and he took over the offense 100%, started to call the plays and actually was the one that drove the team down. They didn't use Andy's plays. He was the one calling the plays.
- [66:31]
Skip Bayless
To your point, it's patrimony. Mahomes is the best quarterback right now. I'll take Joe Burrow over Patrick Mahomes.
- [66:37]
Will
Now listen, I love Joe Burrow. When he's healthy, he's, when he's great. The problem is, is that he's got, he's. He's in part of an organization that doesn't like to play defense. So he's never going to win like that. I watched Joe Burrow's first game against the Eagles where he got sacked eight times and was able to get up all that time.
- [66:53]
Skip Bayless
Did Joe Burrow not beat Patrick Mahomes in an AFC championship game at Arrowhead? He did do that. He almost did that one twice.
- [66:59]
Will
He did do that one time. He did do that one time.
- [67:01]
Skip Bayless
But.
- [67:02]
Will
But he also hasn't been able to get back there, has he? So Joe Burrows hasn't been that great so that he's been able to get his team beyond everything else.
- [67:09]
Skip Bayless
Way to go. Good job.
- [67:14]
Will
What's up, Skip? It's a pleasure, man.
- [67:15]
Skip Bayless
You're up. Okay.
- [67:17]
Will
You're talking about everybody else. You're saying all these different things. We got to talk about what overrated is, what that means. You can break it down. Let's talk a little bit. Literally. You want to talk about his actual rating last year? PFF has got him at eight players.
- [67:27]
Skip Bayless
Got him at number four.
- [67:28]
Will
So you're going to sit here and you're going to tell me that that is not an accurate place for that man to be? Should there. If he should be lower, should be higher?
- [67:34]
Skip Bayless
No. But most people think he's already better than Brady. A lot of people believe that.
- [67:38]
Will
Okay. But Brady is not even in this conversation. This conversation is not Brady versus Mahomes. The conversation is. Is Mahomes overrated? If you want to talk about. You want to talk about value, we want to talk about overrated in value. Monetary value. Patrick Mahomes, the half a billion dollar man, has been to the super bowl five times and won a bunch of money. That's good return on investment. What was Allen's contract extension that he just got?
- [68:01]
Skip Bayless
Josh Allen?
- [68:02]
Will
Yeah.
- [68:02]
Skip Bayless
Yeah. It's significant. Yeah.
- [68:06]
Will
When's the last time he went to the Super Bowl?
- [68:07]
Skip Bayless
Okay, well, they're betting on the. Come on. That one. They are, but he's showing you a lot. And he was the MVP for sure. And I thought he deserved it.
- [68:15]
Will
I agree 100%. I agree that he deserved it, but he's got insane stats. Passing was similar to Mahomes, but nobody can stop Allen's rushing. That is like that, 100%. But then you go stats.
- [68:25]
Skip Bayless
You want to look at stats.
- [68:26]
Will
You want to look at his MVP years? What other player in the NFL that is playing right now has had over an entire regular season of postseason games? That is an MVP season. You take out last season's postseason, okay.
- [68:39]
Skip Bayless
You'Re going this past season or two years ago, this past season where we lost. Okay. Oh, you're a we. You just declared yourself.
- [68:48]
Will
I'm a Wii. I will always be a wee.
- [68:49]
Skip Bayless
You're a Chiefs fan?
- [68:50]
Will
Yes, sir. 100% born and raised. KC.
- [68:52]
Skip Bayless
Okay, so he has like 5200 yards.
- [68:56]
Will
Some like 30 to 40 touchdowns and 10 ints. That's less than what Allen has in his. His ints are less than what Allen had in his MVP season.
- [69:06]
Skip Bayless
But you realize he's gotten to play 14 home games in the postseason, right? Yeah, he's earned it. And if he's played 21 postseason games. So if you take the five Super Bowls out, that means only two road games in the playoffs. Other than the 12. Yeah. And everybody 14 at home. Everybody made 14 at home.
- [69:23]
Will
Everybody made such a big deal that he's going to Buffalo on the road. What happened?
- [69:27]
Skip Bayless
And he went and beat Lamar on the road. He played anywhere.
- [69:29]
Will
It doesn't matter, man.
- [69:30]
Skip Bayless
He was really good. Especially in the first half at Ravensback two years ago. I give you that. But you're trying to scrub his resume of 319 loss to Brady, 40 to 22 to the Eagles, in which he had a QBR of 11.
- [69:46]
Will
Okay, what about John Elliott?
- [69:47]
Skip Bayless
He stung for three and a half quarters of his first Super Bowl.
- [69:50]
Will
Okay, if we're bringing other people, what about John Elway, is he overrated? Do you think he. What, what's your take? Because this man had a 55 to 10 loss in the Super Bowl.
- [69:58]
Skip Bayless
He did.
- [69:59]
Will
Like you're going to see people take.
- [70:01]
Skip Bayless
I mean, that's not the topic here. But yeah, Grady versus Mahomes. Okay, Elway's career was a little overrated because he couldn't close deals.
- [70:09]
Will
But can Mahomes close deals?
- [70:11]
Skip Bayless
Can have a very good defense.
- [70:12]
Will
So can Mahomes not close deals?
- [70:13]
Skip Bayless
Well, he hasn't closed. He, he had one great super bowl with a game winning drive in overtime at Las Vegas. I give you that one. I've given you that from the start. But I still think Jalen outplayed him twice in Super Bowls because Jalen was better than Mahomes in the first one. And Jalen made one crucial error that cost the Eagles that game.
- [70:31]
Will
The fumble. Okay, yeah, totally, totally. But with everything else, I'm sat here for the whole day with. You have been championing the people who win titles all in the NBA. All you've talked about is the importance of titles. This conversation is going to be just the exact same thing. So how can you say that those titles are important yet Mahomes, three titles, Those don't matter. And that's overrated.
- [70:54]
Skip Bayless
Have you already concluded he's better than Tom Brady?
- [70:57]
Will
I don't care about Tom Brady. Tom Brady is giving. Tom Brady is giving some bland commentary over on Fox. Wherever he is now, he's out of the game.
- [71:06]
Skip Bayless
Yep, Tom Brady.
- [71:07]
Will
Tom Brady is the goat. I'm not gonna say that Mahomes is that level yet. He's not. He has not played those seasons.
- [71:12]
Skip Bayless
Do you think his regular season performance has dwindled over the last three years? It's starting to erode slowly but surely.
- [71:19]
Will
Who's his receiving core?
- [71:21]
Skip Bayless
Okay, it's always some excuse. He's got the greatest play caller, I think ever, 100%.
- [71:26]
Will
But if you don't have hands and you have people who make stupid off the field decisions.
- [71:30]
Skip Bayless
Well, he's got the greatest pass catching tight end ever. I know he's on the downside a little bit, but he's a little bit Gronk.
- [71:37]
Will
Gronk's gone and he's still, he's still getting open in the middle of that field and he's still doing what he needs to do.
- [71:43]
Skip Bayless
Kelsey separates way better than Gronk ever separates.
- [71:45]
Will
100%.
- [71:46]
Skip Bayless
Okay.
- [71:50]
Will
So sorry. Good shit, man. This episode is brought to you by Chevy Silverado. When it's time for you to Ditch.
- [71:57]
Skip Bayless
The blacktop and head off road. Do it in a truck that says no to nothing. The Chevy Silverado Trail Boss get the.
- [72:04]
Will
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- [72:07]
Skip Bayless
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- [72:09]
Will
And towing capacity thanks to an available Duramax 3 liter turbo diesel engine.
- [72:14]
Skip Bayless
Where other trucks call it quits, you'll.
- [72:16]
Will
Just be getting started. Visit chevy.com to learn more.
- [72:22]
Skip Bayless
My next claim is Bill Belichick is overrated. The patriots dynasty was 80% Tom Brady.
- [72:37]
Will
So first, if we're going to call Bill Belichick overrated, we need to look at his entire career as a defensive coordinator before he was even in New England. So if we're going to look at that, he was with the Giants for 10 years.
- [72:48]
Skip Bayless
Great.
- [72:49]
Will
They had a top 10 defense every year.
- [72:51]
Skip Bayless
Except for really good.
- [72:52]
Will
Yep, granted, he had Lawrence Taylor, I'll give you that. So then he leaves for the Browns after. There's two Super Bowls that he had.
- [72:57]
Skip Bayless
Where they had top two defenses.
- [72:58]
Will
The Giants went from the best defense in two years down to the worst. And the Browns went from dead last all the way to the top 10 within two years with Bill Belichick. As my friend here said, Tom Brady's never won a Super bowl without a top 10 defense. Bill Belichick is not 20%. You can make the argument for 50. 50. Brady did some great things in his two best Super bowl performances. He wasn't able to carry them to the win.
- [73:25]
Skip Bayless
I give you, Bill Belichick was a really good defensive coordinator under Bill Parcells. He wasn't the leader. He wasn't the CEO. I agree he didn't set the tone in the locker room, but he was really good. And then he became a head coach. And if I look at Bill Belichick's head coaching record without Tom Brady, without Tom Brady, he's 64 and 85. And when he got to New England before Tom Brady fell out of the heavens into his lap.
- [73:53]
Will
Yes, Sir.
- [73:54]
Skip Bayless
He went 35 and 47 in New England without Tom Brady. Okay, that's 35 and 47. So that's. Man, that's 12 games under.500. And his total head coaching record without Tom Brady is 21 games under.500. Well, that's. That's overrated because once Tom Brady was gone from New England and they'd won six Super Bowls together, four seasons elapsed. And did you see what happened? Bill Belichick got exposed.
- [74:21]
Will
Oh, here we go. Here we go. Tampa Bay. Tom Brady in Tampa Bay.
- [74:24]
Skip Bayless
Okay, but think about this 5 defense.
- [74:26]
Will
His first year he got there, Jameis Winston could have won that first year.
- [74:29]
Skip Bayless
He made a smart choice, didn't he? Because I didn't see that coming. Tom Brady's going to Tampa Bay. But he knew that the cupboard was not bare in Tampa Bay.
- [74:35]
Will
Yes, sir.
- [74:35]
Skip Bayless
Okay, well, that's just being a wizard to me, being a genius.
- [74:38]
Will
Brady didn't carry them there.
- [74:39]
Skip Bayless
Okay, so four seasons without Brady after he's gone in New England, Bill Belichick's still the head coach. They had the seventh worst record in the national football game. Mac Jones, Pro Bowler, 33 and 50. He picked him, right? Yeah, he picked him. He played 61. So you can see that. That Belichick was nothing without Brady. That's not true at all. Okay, they played one playoff game. Do you remember the playoff game at Buffalo against Josh Allen?
- [75:03]
Will
Yes, sir.
- [75:03]
Skip Bayless
And it was 47 to 7. And it was the Immaculate Game because the. The Patriots. That the. The Bills were never forced upon. So Bill Belichick's vaunted defense couldn't even make Josh Allen punt.
- [75:17]
Will
You gotta realize who else left that defense, though. Bill Belichick. If you're naming the Patriots super bowl rosters, you can name more stars on their defense than you can on their offense. You will be able to name way more defense. Brandon lefell's a Super bowl champion. Where'd he go after the Patriots?
- [75:31]
Skip Bayless
Okay, good job. Thank you. Fire away.
- [75:36]
Will
So two words in this debate. I heard all your debates. But Matt Cass, he proves that Belichick is a coach without Tom Brady as a head coach.
- [75:45]
Skip Bayless
They went 11, 5, 11 and 5. Missed the playoffs.
- [75:47]
Will
Missed the playoffs because it was a tremendous amount of activity going on in the AFC. So let's leave that out. 11 and 5 without Brady. Right?
- [75:53]
Skip Bayless
Good point.
- [75:54]
Will
So let me go backwards.
- [75:55]
Skip Bayless
All right?
- [75:56]
Will
The gentleman brought up when he was the defensive coordinator for the Giants. I'm an Eagles fan. I started loving this game through Randall Cunningham. Best amazing. Like, the amount of things that he could do on offense was amazing. Who shut him down twice a year? I almost cried because Brando looked like a regular quarterback 70% of the game. Because Bill Belichick, his planning and tactical ability.
- [76:19]
Skip Bayless
But maybe Lawrence Taylor shut him down.
- [76:20]
Will
Yes, of course, Lawrence Taylor. But. But. But one player does not shut that down. Not one player. It was the defensive schemes. It was his adjustments. Now, as a head coach and always, Bill Belichick makes adjustments better than any coach I've ever seen. I don't like the man. I hate him. So I'm not making the argument Like Bill Belichick. I'm saying Bill Belichick is the man that can come up with a plan. It doesn't matter who his personnel is. He will come up with a plan to win. Now, of course, Brady has a huge amount to do with it. I don't discount Brady. To me, he's the greatest quarterback ever to do it. But 80, 20 skip, like, that's extreme.
- [76:56]
Skip Bayless
No, it's not.
- [76:56]
Will
It's extreme. Matt Castle shows you it's extreme.
- [76:59]
Skip Bayless
So many expatriates have told me that that locker room revolved around Tom Brady because they did not. To your point, they didn't like Bill Belichick. He was tyrant. He was old school.
- [77:09]
Will
But are there not different types of leadership?
- [77:11]
Skip Bayless
Cuss them out. He's humiliate them in film sessions. And Tom Brady would always whisper, it's okay.
- [77:17]
Will
Yes. And that's a balancing act. Does that not show? But if you talk to players, and I'm. I'm friends with a lot of them that play for them, if you talk to players, will they stand up and do the best they've ever done for him? Yes. Not just out of fear, but out of respect. Why? Because the schemes that he comes up with when they play for his team versus someone else where they suddenly can't play.
- [77:33]
Skip Bayless
Okay. Shows that he knows how to use.
- [77:35]
Will
Player personnel better than any coach in the league. And I love Andy Reid. So I'm just saying.
- [77:40]
Skip Bayless
What was the scheme in the super bowl against the Philadelphia Eagles with Nick Foles at quarterback, where he stole our plays. Yeah, I know. Well, is that what happened? Because how did he score 40 points? How did you guys score 40 points?
- [77:53]
Will
41.
- [77:54]
Skip Bayless
41. 41 to 33. That's correct.
- [77:56]
Will
Yes. 41, 33. So you're totally right. I can't argue my game. Right. Like, he didn't do the best he could have done against the Eagles. Why? Because it's a team sport. He's not on the field. He only can do his schemes. And he made an amazing grunt at it. It's not like we blew them out. It was 41, 33. It was a very competitive game. I was scared half of it, but I was enjoying the fact that our team, which was a dynamite team in the moment, we sucked the year after. Like, we really were a team of the moment. Everyone was firing all cylinders. When Carson Wentz dropped down, every player stepped up, up. Including Nick Foles, including the safeties, including our not so great linebackers. Everyone played well in that game, including Brandon Graham. So we got to go into. Okay, did Brady fell or did Belichick fell in that game? Both of them did.
- [78:39]
Skip Bayless
Okay, but when we did a defensive coordinator give up 41 to a backup quarterback in a Super bowl, now you're.
- [78:46]
Will
Talking about head coach, defensive coordinator. And you made the argument he was the coordinator, but you made the argument that we're focusing on head coach and we want to focus on coordinator. You can't bring in head coach coaching and make that thing.
- [78:55]
Skip Bayless
He's his expertise, but it's his expertise.
- [78:57]
Will
But as you know, as a head coach, that's not all he can focus on. Correct? Correct.
- [79:03]
Skip Bayless
Absolutely right.
- [79:04]
Will
So when you're saying that that's not even the only thing that happened.
- [79:06]
Skip Bayless
I think that's what he was for the Patriots dynasty. He was the defensive coordinator, and Brady was the, quote, unquote, head coach and quarterback. Brady was the leader of the team. Brady controlled the locker room. Brady set the tone for that Patriots culture. That again, it spilled over everywhere, and Brady started.
- [79:27]
Will
Yes, but now you're talking about culture, right? You're talking about culture. The culture was a balance. It's all good.
- [79:33]
Skip Bayless
Good job. Hey, you were great.
- [79:35]
Will
Thank you for. Go Cowboys.
- [79:38]
Skip Bayless
Go Cowboys. Why is it upside down on your hat?
- [79:41]
Will
It's fashion.
- [79:42]
Skip Bayless
Oh, it's fashion. You got me.
- [79:45]
Will
Touche. You talked about culture. Right. I think Bill Belichick set up the Patriots and built a system where Tom Brady thrived. Right. I personally believe if Drew Bledsoe did not get hurt that first year, they would have won the super bowl anyway.
- [80:03]
Skip Bayless
You do?
- [80:04]
Will
I do. Because I believe at that time, Tom Brady benefited from the system that Bill Belichick built. Right. Later on in the career. You can argue he may have pulled more weight or whatever, but I think, you know, Matt Castle proves that Bill Belichick built a system that Tom Brady thrived in.
- [80:24]
Skip Bayless
I'm not a Drew Bledsoe fan because I think he's got a loser syndrome about. He's the guy who's going to make the bad throw. He's going to throw it to the other team when you least needed to have it thrown. And again, they had just gone 5 and 11 the previous season with Drew Bledsoe at quarterback back. And they were.02 when Brady took over because Mo Lewis crushed Drew Bledsoe's sternum or whatever it was, and he was gone. Right. Okay. So then they take off and they got a huge break with the Tuck Rule. Tom Brady changed everything because in the Tuck rule game, he was really good. He was really good. And Vinatieri helped close deals because he's kicking.
- [80:59]
Will
That was going to be my next play.
- [81:00]
Skip Bayless
Okay. He's kicking field goals.
- [81:03]
Will
Tom Brady's not making tackles. He only plays offense. Right.
- [81:07]
Skip Bayless
But if you can, I don't think six game winning drives in all six Super Bowls, that's saving your coach. And if you go to the AFC Championship game in 2018 at Arrowhead and again is a coin flip and you won the coin flip. But that's what Brady does. He wins coin flips and then he wins games because he was blessed. Okay, Good job. Thank you. You're back again.
- [81:31]
Will
You keep mentioning that Tom Brady threw to Edelman, to Gronk, et cetera. You also brought up briefly the Tampa Bay stint and that he was a wizard for choosing Tampa Bay.
- [81:42]
Skip Bayless
He was.
- [81:42]
Will
He forced Rob Gronkowski to come out of retirement because he knew he couldn't do it without Rob Gronkowski. He made sure he was going to a top five defense. He made sure he had Mike Evans and Chris Godwin, et cetera.
- [81:53]
Skip Bayless
It was a great choice. I didn't see it coming, did you?
- [81:56]
Will
And I did not see it coming. As a Patriots fan, I was upset. But that team, that support staff was arguably the best support staff he's ever had in his career.
- [82:06]
Skip Bayless
What was that team the year before? I'm a little foggy. It was like 5 and 11 or what about.
- [82:13]
Will
I mean, you mentioned Mac Jones, James Winston. You mentioned Mac Jones losing in the playoffs. Bill Belichick got to the playoffs with Mac Jones. How many coaches in NFL history can get to the playoffs?
- [82:24]
Skip Bayless
What happened?
- [82:25]
Will
And then what happened? Mac Jones happened. Josh Allen happened.
- [82:27]
Skip Bayless
Thank you.
- [82:28]
Will
And Josh Allen happened. Yes. I'm not saying Brady was assisted quarterback. Brady could do stuff in the playoffs that most quarterbacks could not do, but he doesn't do it without Bill Belichick. Was 10, three against the Rams. Was that Brady playing great defense?
- [82:42]
Skip Bayless
Nope. That was good. I'm going to give Belichick that one because that was again, they got rid of their quarterback because of that game. Right.
- [82:49]
Will
Brady still had a chance to drive down the field with a lot more time than, for example, Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen have had. And they've completed those drives against a defense that wasn't the best defense. We're not talking about this year's Eagles. We're talking about those year Eagles that wasn't the best defense and Brady couldn't do it. The fact that they were even competitive in that game was the system that Bill Belichick has built that till this day, people say the Patriots system is mostly Bill Belichick, what he has built.
- [83:15]
Skip Bayless
Okay, but as a Patriot fan, weren't you outraged that he gave up 41 to Nick Foles?
- [83:20]
Will
Absolutely. And it wasn't a perfect game from Bill Belichick. But there have been many more imperfect gains from Tom Brady where Bill Belichick and his system have saved him and bailed him out.
- [83:30]
Skip Bayless
Okay, which.
- [83:31]
Will
The Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He went to the Buccaneers because he knew there were multiple routes to getting bailed out.
- [83:36]
Skip Bayless
All right, you're a smart guy and a good Patriot fan. I gotta hit you with Spygate, because I never quite got over the fact that Bill Belichick needed to cheat so badly that he outrageously cheated until Eric Mangini, his former assistant. Then the jets head coach said, bill, if you do it, if you tape my signals, I'm gonna turn you in. And he turned them in, and they got busted.
- [83:58]
Will
Even if you assume one scandal and even if you take away his accolades from that era, what about after that? Once you are involved in one scandal, you get scrutinized more than anybody else in the league.
- [84:08]
Skip Bayless
Well, then they had a Deflategate scandal.
- [84:11]
Will
And deflategate was more Tom Brady. And also, it wasn't a real scandal. That was a lack of understanding of science.
- [84:16]
Skip Bayless
I do agree with. With that, because once they inflated the football to the right proportion, remember, in the second half against Indy in the. The AFC is the AFC Championship game. No, it was the. The semifinal. Yeah. He. Brady threw a party in the second half with a properly inflated football. Right, okay.
- [84:34]
Will
But how many times has Tom Brady gone to the super. Like it's been mentioned before, gone to the Super Bowl. Won a Super bowl with the top 10 defense. Bill. Tom Brady is not playing defense. Bill Belichick built that defense. Bill Belichick built a system where people think that Drake May can immediately become a contender because of the system that Bill Belichick has built that'll last for a long, long time.
- [84:54]
Skip Bayless
So, as a Patriot fan, how do you explain what happened after Tom Brady is pushed out the back door and he's got four years to prove himself? Bill Belichick going solo. And they're terrible. Right? It's 33 and 51 without Tom Brady. Good job on that.
- [85:11]
Will
Hello again. So focusing on the. Who gets credit for the dynasty? And again, I never thought I'd be in this chair twice arguing against our hero, Tom Brady. But my kind of thesis is that the partnership between Brady and Belichick is the most successful partnership in NFL history. And it's almost impossible to determine credit. It was kind of a one plus one equals three situation. And where I'm coming from there is Brady, famously not a remarkable prep prospect, had a good, not great college career. Actually very similar to like Chad Henney.
- [85:43]
Skip Bayless
Who came right after him. I agree.
- [85:45]
Will
Famously 199th pick overall. So there was no indication that he was going to be the savior all time great quarterback.
- [85:50]
Skip Bayless
Although if you watched him against Alabama in his Orange bowl game, the last game of his college career, he was really good.
- [85:56]
Will
Yeah.
- [85:56]
Skip Bayless
Okay, go ahead.
- [85:57]
Will
Yep, there was no indication that he was going to be that great quarterback until he came with Bill Belichick. And he sat for a year, learned of Bill Belichick, Belichick saw the potential, promoted him to backup.
- [86:08]
Skip Bayless
I give Belichick credit for that.
- [86:10]
Will
Week three, week two, he comes in for Bled Cell. Week three, he is good in 2001, he has big moments, but on the whole he's not great. And even his first six years, his closest statistical comps are Matt Ryan and Russell Wilson. Good quarterbacks, not great. Patriots defense for those first three Super Bowls. World class. I think one year was first overall. It was always top five. Brady continued to ascend throughout his career and it became more Brady dominant in.
- [86:39]
Skip Bayless
The second, second half.
- [86:40]
Will
Once you had Gronk and Edelman and Moss and all that, it became more of a Brady dominant offense. So that's why it's kind of impossible to say it's this. It's that it's more just this marriage that worked out wonderful for everybody, including me.
- [86:53]
Skip Bayless
Okay. But if Brady wins six Super Bowls with game winning drives in the fourth quarter overtime and he wins the AFC championship game with three third and ten conversions in overtime, he, he's saving Belichick from himself because there are times when the defense is not living up to its billing of the regular season where it's getting torched too many times in playoffs. I give you the early ones. But as Brady took over the team in year three, four and five, the Patriot way became the Brady way. And I think he never got enough credit for running the locker room and keeping the locker room from rebelling against the tyrant who was Belichick. So Belichick doesn't last that long as the CEO of that team without a Tom Brady as the leader of the team.
- [87:43]
Will
So one thing I will concede to you is that Belichick lost his fastball. The last starting in the Eagles second Eagles super bowl, he kind of lost it, but they bailed each other out time to time. The Malcolm Butler interception, you could say that bailed out Tom Brady. And that was a coaching design, preparation.
- [88:00]
Skip Bayless
Execution, alt Brady in the quarter. Fourth, fourth quarter against Seattle. He was, he threw for 124 in the fourth quarter. In the fourth, it was two touchdown passes.
- [88:09]
Will
And I believe, I'm not sure, but I believe the Seahawks were shut out in the fourth quarter.
- [88:12]
Skip Bayless
Okay.
- [88:12]
Will
So that's why you can't separate.
- [88:14]
Skip Bayless
Wilson is torching them all the way down the field. And then they get to the fateful moment and everybody says run beast mode. Yeah. And they call a pass play. And I didn't have a terrible problem with it because I thought Russell threw a pretty good pass.
- [88:28]
Will
Well, it's.
- [88:29]
Skip Bayless
Butler just jumps the route and swipes. Wipes it. And Brady's jumping up and down like a little.
- [88:34]
Will
Yep. And that, and that play was a result of two weeks of preparation, game type, studying that specific kid, undrafted out.
- [88:42]
Skip Bayless
Of West Alabama who'd never played. Like he's thrown into the fire late because they, they benched the other corner.
- [88:49]
Will
Yep.
- [88:50]
Skip Bayless
Right.
- [88:50]
Will
And then let's go to that second Rams Super Bowl Patriots put up 13 points, three points for three and a half quarters. I think you even said that was a Belichick masterpiece of a game plan.
- [89:00]
Skip Bayless
Yeah.
- [89:01]
Will
So it's like, like I said, it's.
- [89:02]
Skip Bayless
Brady's fighting with Aaron Donald and they couldn't block him.
- [89:05]
Will
Yep.
- [89:06]
Skip Bayless
And Brady's running for his ducking and dodging. He couldn't run. So he couldn't run for his life if he can't run.
- [89:11]
Will
Right.
- [89:11]
Skip Bayless
But, but, but he's, he's ducking and dodging for his life.
- [89:14]
Will
Yep.
- [89:15]
Skip Bayless
And yet he still had a game winning drive in the fourth quarter of that Super Bowl. Or they might have lost that one.
- [89:20]
Will
And let's look at the Falcons super bowl too. Brady is awful that first half. He was the pick six.
- [89:26]
Skip Bayless
Threw a pick six and he's phenomenal.
- [89:28]
Will
In the second half half. Belichick and his defense does their part by shutting the Falcons out or definitely after the, the fourth quarter they were shut up. So again it's this symbiotic relationship.
- [89:39]
Skip Bayless
Brady threw in the fourth quarter in overtime for 200, 220. Phenomenal. All right, all right.
- [89:45]
Will
This was fun. Thank you.
- [89:46]
Skip Bayless
Good job.
- [89:46]
Will
Yeah. Ha. I had to come back. I have one minute left to be able to do this. Me again. Me again. So I have to start this off. First off, Belichick has won more rings. Right. He's got more rings than Tom Brady does. Right. And like I said, that one game that he won out in Tampa. After that, what did he do? I don't remember him doing so well. I think he made it to the playoffs. He did beat the Eagles in the playoffs because I was there. But after that, he didn't do much after that because they kind of needed each other. I kind of look at that.
- [90:19]
Skip Bayless
Okay, but against the Rams, he was really good. And. And then Cooper cup, they. They blew an assignment, let him loose at the end of the game.
- [90:25]
Will
Well, but I can't again. That's. That's on that. But that being said, they said we won 41 to 33 against him and he had 500 yards. In fact, every time he went for.
- [90:36]
Skip Bayless
500 yards, they usually lose that 505. 505. That remains the all time playoff record. All time playoff.
- [90:43]
Will
Right. And I think that that was one of the best Super Bowls. But every time he's thrown for 500 yards, they usually lose. So Belichick. Belichick has been that guy who's been able to do with the defenses because listen, there wasn't a touchdown thrown in the next Super Bowl. Right. In super bowl liii. But.
- [91:00]
Skip Bayless
Okay, good job. Congratulations. Skip will now choose a challenger that he would like to debate one more time. Will came in pretty early and made a very smart and impassioned case for Kobe Bryant. And I appreciated it. So I'm gonna go. Will.
- [91:29]
Will
I need to go Back to the LeBron as the gun.
- [91:31]
Skip Bayless
Okay. Yeah, let's do it again.
- [91:33]
Will
Okay, for sure. So I wanted to say that the only thing that Michael Jordan has better than LeBron James is better shoes and a better Space Jam movie.
- [91:41]
Skip Bayless
Other than that, he definitely had a better Space Jam.
- [91:43]
Will
We could agree on that. We could agree on that for sure. I want to go back to the beginning of the career, right. LeBron was known as the chosen one. He was drafted at 18, fresh out of prom, expected to save a franchise. What did he walk into? That team was 1765, worst record in the NBA. They missed the playoffs for five straight years. The best players on that team were Ricky Davis and Big Z. I like to call them the LA Fitness 5, because you could take me and one of my friends at LA Fitness and we could still be the worst team. You know what I mean? And then that team was ranked 29th out of 29th for NBA attendance, which means that neither the. Neither the fans or the players were showing up. If there was a fish fry going on across the street, Skip, people would go to that fish fry. That's how bad it Was, mind you, only by adding LeBron James, they, they increased their wins by 18 games that season just by adding one man.
- [92:29]
Skip Bayless
He's a great player. Yeah, yeah, he's a force.
- [92:31]
Will
Fantastic.
- [92:31]
Skip Bayless
But what was Jordan? 260 exact? Maybe he's a rookie. 235, but exactly.
- [92:36]
Will
But what was Jordan doing at 18 and 19 years old?
- [92:38]
Skip Bayless
Well, he was winning an E NCAA championship for the Carolina Blue.
- [92:43]
Will
Yeah, but he was. I heard you say the chosen one goes to the frozen one. But Michael Jordan didn't even have the opportunity to be the chosen one because he wasn't even chosen first in this draft.
- [92:50]
Skip Bayless
He was chosen third, which was all time stupid, right? Was it not?
- [92:55]
Will
But Sam Bowie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Behind Akeem Olajuwon and Sam Bu.
- [92:59]
Skip Bayless
I'll give you aem, but I'm taking Jordan over Akeem.
- [93:02]
Will
Exactly. And many people would, you know, having high insight. But I'm just saying that this is how people viewed him. Like nobody. He wasn't even the first option on his team. That was James worthy. So. So the way how I look at it is like, if you mean when.
- [93:12]
Skip Bayless
He was a freshman.
- [93:13]
Will
Yeah.
- [93:14]
Skip Bayless
Except when you get to the moment Dean Smith, the great Dean Smith calls the last play of the game against Georgetown for the kid Mike Jordan, the freshman, but he nails it.
- [93:24]
Will
But I'm making a comparison, Skip at that. At that same age, LeBron is expected to take a team out of the poverty franchise and make them into a contender. They were saying it was hall of Famer, but not I hope he's good, not I hope he's great, but hall of Famer bust only option. Michael Jordan, on the other hand, it was. We were grasping at straws. They were just like, well, I hope he's good. I mean, there's two people who we think is better than him and okay.
- [93:45]
Skip Bayless
How can you say LeBron is the GOAT? Yeah, when he's a career 35% three point shooter and he's a career 73% free throw shooter. Trust me, by superstar standards, that's pathetic. In both cases he's a lousy free throw and three point shooter. And in the three point shooting, which he's improved dramatically in year 22, he's still high volume. So he's cost his team a lot of regular season moments because he takes way too many threes and he's way below average. So it's disqualifying as the goat when you're a lousy shooter. Because Jordan was an 84% free throw shooter, which is credible to me. It's 10 percentage points higher than.
- [94:27]
Will
But there were things that Jordan could do better as well. Obviously, LeBron is an anomaly, right? He's playing 20 plus years. He's doing things like that. But let's look at the game.
- [94:33]
Skip Bayless
He is one of one. As on longevity.
- [94:36]
Will
Exactly. Right. But I always say you never know what you have until it's gone. Right. In 2010, the Cleveland Cavaliers were the best team in the NBA. They were 61 and 21. They were phenomenal. Right. When LeBron ended up leaving that team, what happened to them? They became the worst record in the NBA.
- [94:48]
Skip Bayless
Okay, I'll give you that.
- [94:49]
Will
Now, in 1992, right. Jordan, for example, he was playing. He retired after winning that championship and went off. And did the Bulls struggle? Absolutely not.
- [95:00]
Skip Bayless
When he went to play baseball.
- [95:02]
Will
Exactly. They only lost two more games, which means that they could have done that with or without.
- [95:06]
Skip Bayless
I mean, they didn't win the championship, but.
- [95:07]
Will
Yeah, they didn't win the championship. But I'm just saying that if you lose the goat, it should reflect losing the goal.
- [95:12]
Skip Bayless
But by the way, Scottie Pippen refused to go back in a game against the Knicks.
- [95:15]
Will
I understand that's internal issues. There was a lot going on. But that does not change the fact that when you lose the best player, it should feel like you lose the best player.
- [95:23]
Skip Bayless
Okay, how do you defend LeBron on what I call his many epic fails?
- [95:27]
Will
Yes.
- [95:28]
Skip Bayless
And let's start with his final go round in Cleveland. The first stint against Boston. They're up two games to one, and they lose four, five and six. And he was pretty pathetic in four, five and six. Dan Gilbert, his owner, subsequently accused him of quitting. Did anybody ever accuse Michael Jeffrey Jordan of. No. It's laughable. Okay, okay, so that's the first one. That's an epic fail.
- [95:50]
Will
I give you that.
- [95:51]
Skip Bayless
Then he goes to Miami the next year, they're up two games to one. He goes back to his hotel. According to Stephen A. He makes a list of I told you so. I'm going to tell him, I told you so. You so. You so. And I was number one on that list. Skip Bayless says, I told you so. Okay, right. And right on schedule, Game four, five and six, chosen one becomes the frozen one. And it was epic. It was like, what just happened to the superstar? Because I've never seen a worse superstar failure on a final stage.
- [96:19]
Will
So let me. Let me go into this. LeBron James has a lot of failures because he took more risk. At the end of the day, he won championships on three different teams. He won championships on the Cleveland Cavaliers, he won championship on the Miami Heat, and he won a championship with the Los Angeles Lakers. Right. On the other end, Michael Jordan won all of those championships with the same. In the same city, with the same coach. And Phil Jackson under the same triangle offense. You know what I mean? Everything was the same with the same running maiden. Scottie Pippen.
- [96:44]
Skip Bayless
Yep. He had a robin. He had one robin.
- [96:46]
Will
Exactly right. And then you can't even say what Jordan did was sensational. What I think about the greatest, it's something that has never been done before. Right. At the end of the day, Phil Jackson takes that same triangle offense and almost does the same exact thing with Kobe Bryant.
- [96:59]
Skip Bayless
I got it. I'm going to continue on. Epic Fails 2013, game six. How do you explain what happened to LeBron down the stretch in the. That Ray Allen saved his bacon with that greatest clutch shot I've ever seen. Did that not happen?
- [97:11]
Will
Ray Allen's my favorite player all time.
- [97:13]
Skip Bayless
I can't argue with that.
- [97:14]
Will
Yeah, one of them, him and Reggie.
- [97:16]
Skip Bayless
Miller, the next year against my San Antonio spurs, they get blown off the court by a record finals margin in five games. And go look at what happened, because it's one to one going back to Miami. Go look at LeBron's game three and four at home in Miami. Seven turnovers in the first game. They lose by 19. They lost game four by 21 at home. And I'm saying, what's wrong? What's happened? It looked like he had shut down. I don't know. But that's an epic fail to me. And then do you remember there's going.
- [97:45]
Will
To be failures when you climb higher mountains, though, Skip.
- [97:48]
Skip Bayless
But Jordan climbed lots of high mountains and never failed.
- [97:52]
Will
Let me ask you this question. If you replace LeBron James on that 31 comeback win with the warriors, would Michael Jordan get the same?
- [97:59]
Skip Bayless
Yes, he would. Okay, so skip. Okay, you can't do.
- [98:03]
Will
Come on now.
- [98:05]
Skip Bayless
Okay, but that was a lot of Steph's fault, too, because Steph, you gotta close that deal. Is that what you're talking about? Three games to one now?
- [98:12]
Will
I'm saying. Exactly. I'm saying that we can't skip over the details in this regard, because at the end of the day, LeBron's biggest problem is he just ran into Steph Curry. That was it. Like, if Steph Curry played in the 80s or 90s, they would have accused him of witchcraft. That's how he was shooting back then.
- [98:26]
Skip Bayless
Okay, well, I saw that. I give you that. I Mean, we never seemed like it, but. But Steph has come up even smaller than he is in a lot of big moments in finals games. He needed Kevin Durant to save him from LeBron.
- [98:39]
Will
All the one man skip. That's what I'm saying.
- [98:41]
Skip Bayless
Kevin was the MVP of the next two finals, right?
- [98:43]
Will
I mean, he called the Avengers to stop one man. You got to think about that, all right? He called everybody. That phone was ringing, everybody.
- [98:51]
Skip Bayless
All right? So, you know, but Steph is admitting to you, I can't do it by myself against that guy, right?
- [98:57]
Will
But what I'm trying to. The thing that I'm trying to make is there were systems built around Michael Jordan to make him who he is. They have the triangle office, they had Phil Jackson, and Phil Jackson almost duplicated the same thing with Kobe. But LeBron James is the system. It doesn't matter what team you put him on, he's going to the Finals within two to three years, and that is statistically proven. It doesn't matter what team he's playing.
- [99:18]
Skip Bayless
One more epic fail at you. This is the game one of 2018. And again, are they overmatched against Golden State? I guess so. But game one at Oracle, LeBron had the greatest final shooting night in his history. He is crazy hot.
- [99:34]
Will
He's the goat.
- [99:35]
Skip Bayless
He's got 40 something. He's the goat.
- [99:37]
Will
He's the goat.
- [99:37]
Skip Bayless
Yeah. He was about to be the goat. Lowercase of this game, as in the reason they lost the game.
- [99:42]
Will
New hobby Hotel lobby, Margot Robbie, Lakers at five. All right, you already know it. You already know it.
- [99:50]
Skip Bayless
At the end of that game one, this could have been a goat case that you're making. LeBron James. And at the end of the game, he gets the switch. He gets little Steph on him at six feet, what do we give Steph? Two or three? I'll give him three. Six feet, three. And LeBron, they're down one. So this is the scary situation for the guy without a clutch gene. Like, oh, I know, I gotta make this, or we're going. We're going to the locker room. We lost, right? And he starts to go up to shoot, and George Hill, who used to to be a San Antonio spur, flashes open and he says, I got to kick it to George Hill. I never liked George Hill when he was a spur. No clutch gene, no clutch nothing. And he kicks it to him to take the shot of the game. And Clay has to tackle him to foul him. So George Hill goes to the free throw line, predictably, and makes the first one. And gags the second one. And then J.R. smith loses his mind because he gets the offensive rebound and the clock runs out because he's dribbling outside. And LeBron goes and sits on the bench and pouts through the timeout before overtime.
- [100:47]
Will
He wants to win.
- [100:48]
Skip Bayless
Pouts. Jordan would never want.
- [100:51]
Will
Jordan will never pout.
- [100:52]
Skip Bayless
Heck no. Heck no. He would have rallied the troops.
- [100:56]
Will
Now, you know, Jordan's teammates were not always happy with the way how he acted. Part of that was because of how he pouted.
- [101:01]
Skip Bayless
They were ski. No, not pouted. He would pout over their performance, maybe, but not about. But he didn't go sit at the end of the bench. No. He would get in their face and say, you're going to suck it up and you're going to hit this shot or that shot.
- [101:14]
Will
But that's why I would argue that LeBron.
- [101:19]
Skip Bayless
I was pleasantly shocked by the super fans who challenged me repeatedly with high intellect, high energy, high charisma. They made me laugh. They made me think.
- [101:31]
Will
I watched Skip on everything on ESPN growing up my entire life. The fact that I could sit here and actually go head to head with Skip and people from back home can watch me do that. The feeling is unreal.
- [101:42]
Skip Bayless
I'm highly impressed that you could find that many people who could hang with me.
- [101:49]
Will
Don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever.
- [101:51]
Skip Bayless
You get your podcasts so that you don't miss an episode. And if you want to watch the video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.