1 Vegan vs 20 Meat Eaters (ft. Jack Symes)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Surrounded – Episode 1: Vegan vs 20 Meat Eaters (ft. Dr. Jack Symes)

Podcast: Surrounded by Jubilee Media
Date: April 5, 2026
Theme: A lone guest faces 20+ people with opposing views. This episode: A vegan philosopher debates 20+ meat eaters and skeptics about veganism, factory farming, and ethical eating.

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Overview

This high-energy, often humorous episode pits vegan philosopher Dr. Jack Symes against a revolving panel of 20+ carnivores, omnivores, skeptics, health professionals, and religious thinkers. The show orchestrates a series of rapid-fire debates around four escalating claims by Dr. Symes:

1. "Extreme suffering for trivial pleasure is morally indefensible."
2. "Everyone should aim to be vegan."
3. "Factory farming is one of the worst moral atrocities in history."
4. "Veganism is good for the world and humanity."

Participants challenge Dr. Symes from a variety of ethical, health, practical, religious, cultural, and even comedic angles. The tone is charged but playful, with host John Regalato facilitating.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ethical Foundations of Veganism

• Utilitarian Ethics: Dr. Symes grounds vegan advocacy in a utilitarian framework: maximizing pleasure, minimizing suffering. He argues, "Extreme suffering for trivial pleasure is morally indefensible." (02:01)
• Factory Farming Horror Stories: He details the suffering of factory-farmed animals—broiler chickens "have their beaks clipped, are kept in cages where they can't move, their legs break under their own weight." (02:41)
• Pushback on Suffering: Dr. Pete, an ER doctor, distinguishes between "senseless" and "meaningful" suffering:

  "All civilization is about chasing triviality...suffering is inevitable and essential." (03:34)

2. Environmental and Societal Impact

• Land & Resource Use: Dr. Symes cites research (Hannah Ritchie, 2022) indicating plant-based diets need "75% less land," arguing that animal agriculture drives both starvation and environmental collapse.
• Global Hunger: He links meat production to global hunger, noting:

  "30 to 60 million children die every year from starvation where most of the plant crops are fed to livestock and sold to rich countries." (04:11)

• Counterarguments: Regenerative Agriculture: Several guests (notably Brian) invoke "regenerative agriculture" and hunting as ways of producing "ethical" meat and reducing harm, challenging the factory farming focus.

3. Health Arguments for and Against Veganism

• Health Benefits: Dr. Symes consistently references large studies (University of Oxford EPIC, Christian Adventist Study) finding lower disease risk and longer life expectancy among vegans.

  "You're likely to live significantly longer...less risk of heart disease, less risk of cancer...if you're vegan" (06:18)

• Health Concerns: Multiple debaters, including a carnivore with diagnosed health issues and a third-year med student, stress that not everyone thrives on a vegan diet:
  • Claims of protein insufficiency and digestive illness (GERD, PCOS, gout) on plant-based diets (12:39, 17:22)
  • Concern over micronutrient deficiency (B12, calcium, vitamin D), medication compliance, and practical accessibility (24:04–28:45)
  • Dr. Symes counters that supplements are normal and necessary, and that "vegan diets are 30% cheaper on average." (26:40)

4. Philosophical and Religious Tensions

• Speciesism & Moral Hierarchies:

  "Can you name one philosophy that thinks extreme suffering justifies trivial pleasure?" (06:01)
  Some argue that humans have unique moral standing (e.g., Chef Skeptic: “humans are top of the food chain”, 61:30), while others (Dr. Symes) stress continuity between humans and animals.

• Religious Arguments: Christians cite Genesis ("animals created for humans") and the role of Jesus eating fish, while Dr. Symes counters with biblical vegetarian roots (Genesis 1:29) and prophetic visions of animal peace (Isaiah 11):

  "God creates the world perfectly vegetarian...At the end of time, the lion will eat straw with the ox." (56:03)

• Pantheism & Eastern Traditions: Dr. Symes and others reference pantheist, Hindu, Buddhist, and Jain perspectives, highlighting how many religious traditions advocate nonviolence toward animals.

5. Practical, Economic, and Cultural Resistance

• Feasibility & Privilege: Panelists note veganism can be “difficult,” “expensive,” and “impractical” for those in food deserts, developing nations, or with specialized diets. Dr. Symes responds that plant-based staples are affordable, and that animal agriculture disproportionately harms the poor (90:31–91:55).
• Social and Taste Barriers: Enthusiastic defenses of cheeseburgers, bacon, and "natural" eating arise regularly. Taste preference emerges as a repeated—if tongue-in-cheek—barrier (00:28, 72:12–73:46).
• "Plants Feel Pain" Arguments: Some try to equate plant and animal suffering, which Dr. Symes dismisses as lacking biological basis (20:03–21:15).

6. Humor and Memorable Banter

The episode is uniquely lively, with constant wit and role reversals—a debater plugs a cheeseburger when asked to pick between ethical sex or nonconsensual sex (00:21, 73:29), and Dr. Symes parries with deadpan English humor.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Suffering:

  “Do you think we should reduce the amount of pain that plants are experiencing?” – Dr. Jack Symes (00:09)

• On Ethical Trade-offs:

  “You can have sex and it was unethical, non-consensual, but it was great. Or you can have the consensual sex and it’s not quite as good. Which one do you pick?” – Dr. Jack Symes, with panelist answering, “Probably a cheeseburger.” (00:21–00:28)

• On Factory Farming:

  “A broiler chicken exists for six weeks...it has its beak clipped off...it goes blind because of the toxins in its own feces. Then it has its throat slit...That’s an extreme amount of pain and suffering for the taste on your lips.” – Dr. Jack Symes (02:41)

• On Meat’s Global Impact:

  “30 to 60 million children die every year from starvation where most of the crops are fed to cattle and sold to more affluent countries.” – Dr. Jack Symes (04:11)

• On Supplements:

  “When you put those two diets in front of someone: here’s one with B12 tablets, here’s one with more cancer risk...I think most people would go for that one.” – Dr. Jack Symes (17:28) “We do lots of unnatural things—flying on planes, watching television—I think going straight to the source and just having a B12 tablet’s absolutely fine.” (17:28)

• On Vegan Athleticism:

  “Novak Djokovic, best tennis player in the world, is vegan. Lewis Hamilton, fastest F1 driver, is vegan. Travis Barker, best drummer, is vegan.” – Dr. Jack Symes (32:01–32:25)

• On Relative Value of Life:

  “How many cows for one Jewish person in Auschwitz?” – Nathan
  “A human being is significantly more valuable than a cow...I’ll give you a number. A thousand cows.” – Dr. Jack Symes (51:41–51:17)

• On Slippery Slopes:

  “It’s easy to eat meat. Doesn’t justify the harm inflicted.” – Dr. Jack Symes (96:13–96:19) “If I wouldn’t kill an animal, why let someone else kill an animal and eat it?” – Pantheist Vegan (93:10)

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Segment Highlights & Timestamps

• Factory Farming Explained & Debated: 02:01–07:00, 49:05–56:00
• Nutritional Deficiency/Health Concerns: 12:26 (carnivore’s GERD), 17:22 (PCOS, gout), 24:04–30:00 (B12, supplementation)
• Environmental Arguments: 04:11 (land use, global hunger); 26:40 (diet cost); 79:10 (fossil fuels & food production)
• Religious Morality: 46:00–48:52 (Christian, Hebrew Bible, Eastern traditions)
• Philosophy: Value of Humans vs Animals: 50:41–55:00
• Taste & Culture: 00:28, 72:12–73:49 (“Have you ever had a cheeseburger with cheese?”)
• Practical Barriers to Veganism/Ease: 90:28–98:43
• Consensus & Compromise: 91:55–98:40 (progress vs perfection, “try to reduce”)

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Episode Takeaways

• Vegans vs Omnivores: The episode doesn’t resolve the debate but reveals points of agreement (factory farming is bad, dietary privilege is real), persistent divides (biological, moral, cultural), and the complexity of pushing for universal solutions.
• Most Agree: Factory farming is indefensible, but many panelists defend small-scale or regenerative animal farming or hesitate over health, accessibility, and cultural obstacles.
• Vegan Claim Reframed: Dr. Symes repeatedly clarifies he’s not demanding universal veganism overnight, but argues that "everyone should aim to be vegan—as far as possible."
• Morality vs Habit: Even habitual meat-eaters concede a “moral weirdness” in eating animals they wouldn’t kill.

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Final Thoughts & Style

The episode is brisk, bold, sometimes cacophonous but rarely mean-spirited—anchored in Dr. Symes’ calm, Socratic method and the (sometimes exasperated) humor of 20+ challengers. If you want raw, unscripted ethical debates—and a little laughter about cheeseburgers—this is a must-listen.

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For full episode, search "Surrounded Jubilee Media" or watch the video on Jubilee’s YouTube channel.

Transcript

[John Regalato]

Hey, listeners, just want to remind you we have episodes of the Pod coming out every Sunday, so please consider subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for your support.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Do you think we should reduce the amount of pain that plants are experiencing?

[Nicole Ashley]

Yes, we should. Plants matter. Plants matter.

[Brian]

You're not addressing my points. You are not addressing my points. You are deflecting because I literally backed you into a corner.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You can have sex and it was unethical. Non consensual, but it was great. Or you can have the consensual sex and it's not quite as good. Which one do you pick?

[Cheeseburger Lover]

Probably a cheeseburger.

[John Regalato]

Is eating meat unethical? Or has the conversation around veganism and ethical dieting become too rigid and moralized? I'm John Regalato, and for Jubilee Media, this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. Today we're diving headfirst into veganism, factory farming, and what it means to eat ethically. I'm here in the center with our Featured guest today, Dr. Jack Symes. Welcome to the show.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey, thanks for having me.

[John Regalato]

Are you ready to debate the circle?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Sure am. I'm looking forward to hearing what reasons they've brought for their unethical lifestyles.

[John Regalato]

Are you all ready to bring your best arguments? All right, let's get into it.

[Pantheist Vegan]

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[Dr. Jack Symes]

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[Dr. Jack Symes]

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[Dr. Jack Symes]

Moldchopper excludes Alaska and Hawaii. My first surrounded claim is extreme suffering for trivial pleasure is morally indefensible.

[John Regalato]

If you'd like to be the first debater, get to the chair in three, two, one.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Easy lady. Dr. Jack, nice to meet you.

[Dr. Pete]

I'm Dr. Pete.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nice to meet you Dr. Pete.

[Dr. Pete]

So I am very excited about this topic. I think it's super interesting that it touches on so Much. And all starts with food. So I'm an emergency medicine physician.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Do you want to. On the. On the claim I made, first of all, do you want to disagree with that?

[Dr. Pete]

I do, I do.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Extreme suffering for trivial pleasures, morally indefensible. Can I give you the reason? Then you can disagree. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think this principle comes from any of the major world philosophies. So you could be religious or not religious. You could be a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, you could be a Hindu, a Sikh, you could be a Buddhist, or you could have one of the secular moral philosophies as well. You could be an Aristotelian, a utilitarian, an existentialist. But the easiest way to understand it is just being a utilitarian. Right. A good action is one way. You create lots of happiness and pleasure and very little pain and suffering. But unfortunately, when it comes to factory farming, it's the other way around in our treatment of non human animals in general. Quick example and I'll let you jump in. A broiler chicken exists for six weeks. As soon as it's born, it has its beak clipped off with a guillotine. It's put in the cage, so small it can't move. It's pumped full of food for six weeks straight, so fast that its organs found its legs break under its own weight. It goes blind because of the toxins in its own feces. Then it has its throat slit alongside 10,000 so of its brothers and sisters. I think that's an extreme amount of pain and suffering for what is trivial pleasure, which is the taste on your lips. Would you agree?

[Dr. Pete]

Well, I'll say that all of civilization is about chasing triviality. And at the same time, I think that suffering.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Do you think that's too much suffering?

[Dr. Pete]

I would definitely also say that suffering is inevitable and it's essential.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It's inevitable. But you can minimise it. Right? Is there too much there?

[Dr. Pete]

So, as an emergency medicine document, who takes care of suffering all the time,

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm happy to talk about that, but if you can just say, is that too much suffering imparted onto the chick?

[Dr. Pete]

That particular example? Yeah, whatever it takes. Whatever it takes to sustain 8 billion people across the world, I would say is not true.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

To sustain 8 billion people without having animal agriculture, it's possible.

[Dr. Pete]

I'd like to hear the mechanistic argument for that. But I will say, as a philosophy, you're a philosopher. I'm an ER.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Well, there are 30 to 60 million children that are dying every year from starvation. UNICEF put it at 30 million. Dr. Richard Oplander puts it at 60 million. And so every year you got 30 to 60 million. In 80, 82% of those cases, the children are dying in places where the majority of the meat has been given to cattle and sold to more affluent countries. That's Ethiopia, that's Sudan. Sudan is the hungriest country major in the world and it has one of the biggest livestocks in all of Africa. So you can feed these people. If you go to plant based, you need 75% less land and the amount of agriculture which is used towards supporting these non human animals to slaughter them. It's. That's one of the biggest causes of not being able to eat.

[Dr. Pete]

You're talking about a massive problem across billions of people, across many geographies. And I think what you bring up is probably true, but at the same time I don't think the solution to it is just either you're vegan or you're not. What I mean to say is this about suffering, is that when you take care of people with strokes, heart attacks, domestic abuse, bear attacks, they're also violent predators that eat all sorts of things in addition to us. You start to understand that there's two types of suffering and I think that's the most important part. Two types of suffering. There's senseless suffering and there's meaningful suffering. And I think what you have to understand is that when you can create meaning behind suffering gratuity, you can transform

[Dr. Jack Symes]

it as a necessary suffering. And that's the vegan claim that I take veganism to be the practical ethical rule to avoid products and practices that cause unnecessary suffering times. Would you agree that if you can do something without the suffering, you ought to do it without the suffering? Yes or no?

[Dr. Pete]

Are you against domestication?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

If you answer that, then I'm happy to respond. If you think you can do something without suffering or you do that, I

[Dr. Pete]

don't think avoiding suffering is the highest good.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What is the highest good? I've just told you that every major

[Dr. Pete]

highest good is meaning.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I've just told you every single major world religion, the only commonal religion is that they're all human beings. Extreme suffering.

[Dr. Pete]

They're all human beings.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

That does not justify trivial pleasure. Can you name one world philosophy that thinks that extreme suffering can justify trivial pleasure?

[Dr. Pete]

I don't need to name a philosophy. I think what it is is that in the er. In reality. In reality, when I'm taking care of people recently diagnosed with cancer or they have a, that died, etc.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Significant there's two big studies on overall general health outcomes. The EPIC survey at the University of Oxford looked at half a million people over the last 30 years. And the Christian Adventist Study in the United States of America, that looked at 75,000 people. In both these studies, it's found that you're likely to live significantly longer. Less risk of heart disease, less risk of cancer, less risk of diabetes, less risk of obesity if you're vegan rather than eating meat. This is the most obese country on the face of the planet in terms of the global. In terms of being a major country. 75% of people in this country. You're overweight and obese. President.

[Dr. Pete]

I know it. Very clean. I'm responsible for their health as well.

[John Regalato]

Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please go back to.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Thank you. Hey, nice to meet you. How's it going?

[Christian Debater]

Dr. Simes.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nice to meet you. What's your name? Sorry?

[Brian]

My name is Brian.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nice to meet you, Brian.

[Brian]

You have a PhD in philosophy?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I do, yeah.

[Brian]

That was my first major.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Oh, cool.

[Third Year Med Student]

Nice.

[Brian]

Why'd you study philosophy?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Oh, what do you mean?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Where did you study?

[Brian]

Oh, University of Texas, San Antonio.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Very nice.

[Brian]

Yeah, I actually went to the National Ethics Bowl.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Oh, cool. Great. Awesome. So let's. Yeah. So what do you think of the claim I made the claim earlier to one of your. One of your peers that there's no major war philosophy that thinks that extreme suffering justifies trivial pleasure. Would you agree with that?

[Brian]

So can we just stick, like point by point rather than bouncing around? I just want to.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, yeah. So just that claim.

[Brian]

So what I heard from you is that you believe in the. In minimalizing suffering.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I think all of the major world philosophies hold some version of that to be true.

[Brian]

Yeah. So I will not defend factory farming. There is another way of producing meat and it is regenerative agriculture.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Okay.

[Brian]

And regenerative agriculture reduces all of the harm. Okay.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Doesn't resist all of the harm.

[Brian]

Well, the majority of the harm they lead. They live beautiful lives on regenerative range.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

One bad day, right? They. Right.

[Brian]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I've had bad days, bad days.

[Brian]

They don't know that it's coming. But. But they're serving. They're serving their purpose, but they're. Okay, but here's the deal. Would they even exist in the first place that they weren't being harvested?

[Dr. Pete]

No.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

No.

[Brian]

Let me just ask you a question. Do they have the right to exist? Yeah, because you're cutting me off. Do they have the exist? Well, because here's the deal. If you're saying that we should not harvest them, then those animals are never going to exist. So I guarantee, if they had consciousness and you put them down and you said, here are the scenarios, you can either exist and you can have one bad day and you can serve a purpose and you can have a beautiful life, you can make a positive contribution to the environment. Can I finish? Can I finish?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You take in a.

[Brian]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I've heard the case.

[Brian]

So when I die, I want to be buried in the soil and I want to decompose so that my carbon returns to grass.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The conscientious farming is a myth.

[Brian]

You're not addressing my points. You are not addressing my points. You are deflecting because I literally backed you into a corner.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Conscientious farmer.

[Brian]

What about all of the mice? What about all the rabbits that die? Have you ever spent time on a farm?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, there's.

[Brian]

Have you ever talked farm to farmers?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Okay.

[Brian]

And how many mice, how many rabbits are murdered to produce vegetables of all

[Dr. Jack Symes]

of how many are murdered to produce vegetables of all of them are fed to factory farms? I've just told you 80% of all of soy is given to non human animals only.

[Brian]

I'm going to stop you right there. I'm going to stop you right there. Soy is grown for the soy is grown for the oil extracted. The leftover product is then fed to cattle. That is a manipulative statistic. I am here for discussion. You won't address the point.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Let me respond.

[Brian]

Go back to the soy. Go back to the soy. Go back to the soy.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Go back to the soy.75% reduction according to Hannah Ritchie in 2022, she says that's our world in data. You get a 75% reduction in all agricultural land. 30% of all your agricultural land is given to cattle. We've got 80 to 90%.

[Brian]

You're not addressing the soy statistics. You're not addressing the 81%, 84, 85%. It is literally the byproduct. They grow the soy for the oil. Even if it wasn't being fed to the animals, they would still grow the soil. That is true.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The reference right here. Yeah.

[Brian]

And you don't understand the statistic. If you go and actually look at the statistic, all of the soy is taken, the oil is suppressed, and then the byproduct is what is fed to the animal. And it is 85% of it is left over. And that's what's up to the animal.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

80 to 90% according to the WWF and the UN.

[Faux Day Sella]

Why?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You were deflecting me. How? That's deflecting.

[Brian]

You are deflecting. So you brought up a statistic and you said that 85% of soy is.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

No, I didn't say 80%.

[Brian]

Whatever you said. You said the majority of soy is fed to cattle, did you not?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I said 80.

[Brian]

Yeah, okay, 80. So really now you're going to argue about 5%? You understand the intent? So you're saying that the majority of soy is fed to cattle. And I'm telling you that that is inaccurate. It's not as if the soybean in it. Listen to me, Listen to me. It's the nuance. It is the nuance that you are trying to deflect with. It is not as if 80% of all soy is fed to cattle in its natural state. Oil is extracted and then the byproduct

[Dr. Jack Symes]

is being used because of factory farming for the raising cattle.

[Brian]

I'm not defending factory farming. Farming. Argue against regenerative agriculture.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Having cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys.

[Brian]

Regenerative agriculture. Yes, argue against regenerative agriculture.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Because it destroys the wildlife, because it destroys the climate. No one wants it. According to the UN, 91% of all deforestation is caused by animal agriculture. According to the WWF and the UN, 80 to 90% of all wildlife extinction is caused by animal agriculture. Just because you're using that land, have hunting leases. 35%.

[Brian]

Listen, ranchers who have hunting leases, meaning that they have a ranch, they have land, they don't allow animals on there. They will literally have ranchers bring their cattle in there and flash graze the grass because guess what? It improves the entire ecosystem and it provides no energy.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What do you think? Amazon. What's the leading cause of what happened

[Brian]

in Yellowstone when they reintroduced.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What's the leading cause of deforestation? What happen calls a def.

[Brian]

What happened in Yellowstone when they reintroduced wolves?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Having a conversation, are you? You want to answer my question?

[Brian]

They're doing it for soy.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

All of your. Okay, but here's asking you one question.

[Brian]

The deforestation is related to factory farming. You can get rid of the deforestation.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You think you got factory farms in the Amazon? Sorry, have you been to.

[Brian]

They're doing it for soy. They're doing it for soy.

[John Regalato]

You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How's it going? What was your name? Sorry, B. Nice to meet you.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Girl gone Carnival, actually.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You're carnivore?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I am carnivore. Full carnivore. Okay.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah. You do carnivore?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I do it Mainly because I can't survive without meat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Can't survive. I cannot survive without island scenario for you every day.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

It is, it truly is.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What condition do you have? You don't mind me asking?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Sure. I have gastroesophagus reflux disease.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Okay.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

And so I cannot eat a vegetarian or vegan diet. I will literally get very, very sick. And I was actually vegan vegetarian when I was 16 years old. And that's when I got diagnosed. I've been on a journey. Thank you.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You've seen dietitians, you spoke to GPs, you've seen doctors.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I've seen doctors, I've seen GPs. They've all put me on medications and I was on medication for over 10 years that actually ended up depleting my vitamin D levels and put me in great amounts of depression. And I was also told by doctors that I would never be able to power lift again. I am now lifting 315 pounds with a deadlift.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And you couldn't find any of the like all of the amino acids, all of the nutrients you needed in a plant based diet?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Unfortunately, I couldn't.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What was it you were missing?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Mainly protein. I cannot consume enough protein from vegetation that I need to get it from meat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

There's a study by Miguel Lopez, a big one yet last year in 2025, Journal of Sport Medicine that looks at over 8,000 papers across protein intake and found there was no difference between in terms of protein intake and upper body strength, lower body strength and overall body strength. So I'm always surprised to meet somebody who says that this just doesn't work. Obviously great athletes who take on a lot of protein as well. And when you look at basic things like your tofu per portion is going to have more protein than your eggs, your seitan is going to have nearly twice as much protein as your lean meat, your sirloin steak, your soy milk is going to have more protein than your whole or semi skim milk. So I'm always surprised to hear people can't get the protein. I wonder like, you know, did you do those things? Did you carefully pick.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

It's an inflammation issue really, when it comes down to it. So anytime I eat any other foods that are not meat, I get tons of inflammation and so I can't physically lift, I can't physically really move. I feel very ill. Yeah. And so meat actually makes it where I can live and then, then strive.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Do you want to be vegan?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I do not want to be vegan.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Why?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I do not want to be vegan because it makes Me sick.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But like, if you were, you know, you didn't have these health conditions.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

If I didn't have these health conditions and I could eat whatever I wanted. It's possible. But I, I, you know, it's a really good question. I really feel like maybe.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, you probably would maybe.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I mean, right. If I, if I had no adverse, if I had no adverse effects to the vegan foods, then maybe.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I think conscientious farming is a myth. But do you try and get the meat based and animal based products that you get from as ethically as possible? I have.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I'm not going to say that I do it all the time, I'm not going to lie to you. But my brother is actually a farmer out in Texas and I try the best that I can to get my meat from my brother because I find that, that that's the best way to do it. I've actually went out to Texas and processed a cow with him. So I was actually there. He shot the cow and then we processed it. And it was an experience for me because I actually got to see where my meat comes from as opposed to just being blindly eating.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd enjoy it more if I got to see the creatures.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Well, my family, you know, they were butchers and so I like to, you know, just kind of continue that and my family. But I was a vegan vegetarian like I said, and when I was younger and I, I do see where you were coming from as far as like where it could be ethically more sound.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But unfortunately I've looked everywhere because I've sort of met a bunch of people like you and I'm always like, say I'm always skeptical because the stuff that I read seems to go in the opposite direction. The only study I found said it was about 0.1 to 0.2% of people have a condition like yours where they actually need the meat. But it seems like, you know, when I meet people, it's normal, like 10% of people. So I do find it hard to, you know, just to be honest, I find it hard to believe just in general because I meet so many people that say things like this. And I just encourage you to, you know, to go as far towards veganism. Veganism as possible.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Right, okay.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But if you want to be a vegan.

[John Regalato]

Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to.

[Daniela]

Okay.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

We didn't really just beat that thing.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I appreciate it. Thank you. Happily. Speak to you in a moment. Thank you. Hey. Hello.

[Daniela]

Nice to meet you, what's your name?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Sorry?

[Daniela]

Daniela.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nice to meet you, Daniela. Jack. Yeah.

[Daniela]

So I first became vegetarian at 8 years old. I had seen PETA videos online and I told my 8 years old, yes,

[Dr. Jack Symes]

that's bad parenting right there. That's horrific stuff.

[Daniela]

Yeah. I decided I didn't want to do it and. And then at 16, I went vegan.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, nice.

[Daniela]

And all whole foods, plant based vegan. So I wasn't having seed oils or.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Were you taking supplements?

[Daniela]

No, I was not. Yeah, yeah. And I subsequently developed PCOS symptoms as well as gout.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Daniela]

So eating.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So you are probably like that.

[Daniela]

Yeah. You were against whole foods, plant based.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, I think, I think any sensible nutritionist will say that you need to make sure you're doing it properly, you need to be doing it carefully. And that means for a start, taking a B12 tablet. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think we do lots of unnatural things. Flying on planes, watching television. I think going straight to the source and just having a B12 tablet's absolutely fine. I think when you put those two diets in front of someone, like if we're not in this debate and someone said to you, right, here's one diet where you take a B12 tablet and here's another one where you've got an increased risk of heart disease, more likely to be obese, more likely to develop all kinds of cancers and you're going to live 15, 20% longer according to the Christian Adventist study here in the United States then I think most people would go for that one. I think we need better information of let's not go for just a whole foods diet without that nutrition.

[Daniela]

Yeah. I will say, since I'm responding to your claim, I do agree with your claim. That was the biggest thing that bothered me about being a vegan or vegetarian. And people would always go, and they'd

[Skeptical Christian]

say, oh, but what about bacon?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Come back to the, come back to the light. Well, just take, take the B12 tablet and become vegan.

[Daniela]

But I'm not pro allopathic medicine. I don't think that these supplements are really beneficial.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Of course they are. These big health Studies show that 500,000 people, University of Oxford, 75,000 people, the Christian Adventist study.

[Daniela]

How is there a way to have veganism though, without cities? I'm not pro cities. Yeah, I'm not pro cities. I think, you know, you talk later about factory farming, which is a product of the industrial revolution, you know, that's not something I'm for in any regard. I Think that's been very disastrous.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I understand how vegan organisms linked to cities.

[Daniela]

Well, why wouldn't it be? If you need to have all of these supplements and you need to have

[Dr. Jack Symes]

all of this mass production, it's just a B12 supplement.

[Daniela]

Yeah, but you'd also need to get

[Dr. Jack Symes]

that from nuts and stuff, too, right?

[John Regalato]

Paws have been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, well, welcome back to veganism.

[John Regalato]

It's meant to be.

[Faux Day Sella]

All right.

[Nicole Ashley]

Hi.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nice to see you. Nice seeing you, darling. How's it going? What's your name, sir?

[Nicole Ashley]

My name is Nicole Ashley.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nice to meet you, Nicole Ashley. Jack. How you doing?

[Nicole Ashley]

I am great. I think plants killing plants is murder, though.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Oh, dude, don't do this. Come on. You're joking. You're trying.

[Nicole Ashley]

You're ripping it from the ground, you're ripping it from its mother. It's murder. And I enjoy the trivial pleasure of doing what the lions, what the hyenas, what the tigers have done for history.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So you think plants can feel pain?

[Nicole Ashley]

Yes, they can.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So you want to reduce that pain?

[Nicole Ashley]

You know why? I have an azalea, and when I don't give it enough light, that thing dies. So it fills it.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Nicole Ashley]

I think all plants have feelings, too.

[Brian]

Right?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Do you think we should reduce the amount of pain that plants are experiencing?

[Nicole Ashley]

Yes, we should. Plants matter. Hashtag plants matter.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Okay, so according to Hannah Ritchie, 2022, you get a 75% reduction in all of the land that you need for farming. So if given the fact you're getting 40 to 1 in your calories and 30 to 1 in your protein from plants to animals, then slaughtered, you get a 75% decrease in the plants that you're going to kill if you go vegan for history.

[Nicole Ashley]

And I have to say this. When I go and don't give my fern enough light, it feels okay. When I don't give it any water, it feels right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Two things. I'll let you do whatever that was so you'll. You'll hear me out. The first thing to say is that we don't want to. In philosophy, we call it the principle of past memory. That just basically means we don't want to attribute unnecessary attributes of something if we can explain it without positing it. What does that mean? Plants don't have central nervous systems, and their behavior can be explained without positing that they have minds that can experience pain, pleasure, happiness and stuff. No, they don't.

[Nicole Ashley]

There's no reason lives matter.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

No, they don't.

[Nicole Ashley]

They do.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

They don't they?

[Nicole Ashley]

Do they have sunlight photos?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Just quickly. No, because I don't want to do the natural argument as well and I want to get this one out the way really quickly. I'll see if I can do it in 30 seconds and I promise it'll be really quick. The argument they gave from nature is one of the biggest, one of the worst arguments for being an anti vegan. And why? Because there are lots of things that are predisposed through our natures that we shouldn't follow, right? We're naturally predisposed towards war, lying, cheating, stealing. That's part of the Christian tradition. They think St. Augustine of hippos.

[Nicole Ashley]

But what about to the caveman times? The caveman times, the cavemen lived. They lived off of eating meat. So what is the big deal? I love me a juicy burger. And why should I be denied that when you guys are murderers too? Ripping a poor plant from its mama from the mother earth. Y' all should be ashamed of y' all selves. And we're out of time, baby. Let's do it.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm glad you got your clip. Thank you.

[John Regalato]

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[Carnivore with Health Issues]

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[Dr. Jack Symes]

added to their credit profile during that

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

period, late payments may negatively impact your credit score.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Individual results may vary.

[John Regalato]

Thank you to kickoff for sponsoring this episode. Let's get back to surrounded.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

My next surrounding claim is that everyone should aim to be vegan.

[John Regalato]

All right, if you would like to be the first debater for this claim, get to the chair in three, two, one.

[Nathan]

Hi.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey. What's your name? Nathan. Nice to meet you, Nathan.

[Third Year Med Student]

Nice to see you as well.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It goes pretty good.

[Third Year Med Student]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So the claim, everyone should aim to be vegan, you happy with it?

[Third Year Med Student]

No. And here's why. So I am a third year med student and so I'm going to be a physician, Lord willing, next year. So my goal is to take care of my patients and I'll actually come out and say that the vegan diet tends to be healthier.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Absolutely right.

[Third Year Med Student]

I don't think there's much dispute over that. You can look at the evidence, it is, it is healthier.

[Pantheist Vegan]

However,

[Third Year Med Student]

the biggest thing with the vegan diet from a physician perspective you have to think about is, and it's been mentioned a couple times, is the micronutrient deficiencies that you can have.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

B12.

[Third Year Med Student]

B12 is one of them. So B12.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Happy just taking the tablet?

[Third Year Med Student]

No, but first, let me just, let me just talk for a second. So for B12, it is a DNA precursor that helps synthesize red blood cells. When you don't have that, they become big and become what we call microcytic, sorry, macrocytic. And eventually, if you don't treat it long enough, you will have nerve damage. And we've seen that time and time again.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Early onset Alzheimer's, all that stuff. Your girl earlier on was, she did the whole foods diet. And as I said, then you need to take that B12 supplement.

[Third Year Med Student]

So that's not the only thing though, that's the problem is that we also have calcium. Calcium is very important for bone density, about 30%. If you're vegan diets exclusively, you are 30% likely to have a fracture. Jubilee, you can fact check me on that.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But these are good, right? The nutrition game we can pick out, but the overall health outcomes for the vegan are significantly better, aren't they?

[Third Year Med Student]

So it depends. So as a physician, the EPIC study

[Dr. Jack Symes]

at University of Oxford, you'll be familiar, the Christian Adventist study here at the United States, that's, you know, 700,000 people over 30 years who have been tracked 20% less. Like, you know, you can have a longer Life by about 20% less likely to get cancer, less likely to get diabetes. Let me ask Can I ask you one question because.

[Third Year Med Student]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm really interested. So the United States, you know, you've got a lot of fat people.

[Third Year Med Student]

Yes.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

A lot of obese people, overweight people. The Christian Adventist study here in the US is interesting because they look at people who have got a similar religious background, similar alcohol and smoking intake, which is very, very little. And it found that the vegans had 4 to 5 lower BMI points than the meat eaters, which would literally take you from obese to perfect.

[Third Year Med Student]

I am not in favor of the current American diet. I want to make that very clear. The diet that I'm in favor of and that I will mention to all my patients who are struggling with BMI is the Mediterranean diet, which I'm sure you are very aware of. It's actually very similar to the vegan diet in that it has whole grains, legumes, seeds, fruits and vegetables, which are all super important.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Why wouldn't you take the supplements?

[Third Year Med Student]

Because why would I take supplements when I could just have lean meats like chicken and fish and turkey and things

[Dr. Jack Symes]

like that study by junie Wang in 2019 where she found the fortifieds and the supplements were more easily absorbed by the body because they're already taken away from the fibers. So that's why you said so.

[Third Year Med Student]

I actually disagree with that because. So for instance, omega 3s. Fish have omega 3s.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

They get it from nuts as well.

[Third Year Med Student]

So here's the thing for nuts, it's actually your body has to convert it

[Dr. Jack Symes]

to what it needs. Your Omega 3 tablet.

[Third Year Med Student]

No, no, no. So Omega 3 tablet you need. So that's another tablet thing. Why would you do that when you could just take fish or something similar. Well, and just be able to do that.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

A bunch of reasons. The one is the moral reason, which is significant. Our oceans are being destroyed. 3 to 10 trillion fish being taken out of the ocean. People complain about shark fin soup and they don't want whales being killed. The bike hill is absolutely enormous. And when you're talking about the suffering for the non human animals as well, when you talk about the cost, the University of Oxford study in 2021 found it's 30% cheaper to have a vegan or vegetarian diet than it is to have a meat based diet. And the fish pescetarian diet was the most expensive out of all of them. So it's more affordable if you're spending $10,000 on groceries to house each year. You're going to save $3,000 by going vegan. That's, that's a very strong Argument for not going for the fish when. So yeah, you could eat pescatarian, but then you've got all of the destruction of the wildlife and you've got the killing of the animals and you've got the cost as well. Or you could just take that Omega 3 and B12 tablet and you can significantly reduce your.

[Third Year Med Student]

You also need to take calcium, you need to take vitamin D, you have to take selenium, you have to take iodine.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

95% of people in the US are vitamin D deficient.

[Third Year Med Student]

Yes, that is fair. And you. Some, we do prescribe that.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But the thing is unique to veganism

[Third Year Med Student]

as I've seen patients as I've been rotating through different things, you rank the

[Dr. Jack Symes]

diets in terms of healthiest. Would you go pescatarian, vegan?

[Third Year Med Student]

I'd go Mediterranean first. Yeah, vegetarian and then vegan.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Okay.

[Third Year Med Student]

So, so here's the important thing.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

We're not too far away from each other.

[Third Year Med Student]

We're not too far. But here's the thing is that I think about my patients and I think about what is it achievable for them? And the problem with. And I think affordable.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What's affordable.

[Third Year Med Student]

So affordable. But also can I, can I. The other thing is I've seen medication non compliance. Like I myself take a medication for blood pressure and I suck at it. And a lot of other people. One of the, one of the biggest things in America is that some people, just, a lot of people actually are just not compliant with their medications.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So they don't take it, they don't take it.

[Third Year Med Student]

So it's either we have them high bmi, take a bunch of medications. We do a vegan diet, we give them a lot of supplements, like five or six actually that you would need or you can have the medicine, the Mediterranean diet where you can just have a good diet without those supplements or added things in it.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, you know, you don't need those five or six, you need, you need the B12 tablet, you need Omega 3 mush as well.

[Third Year Med Student]

And the hard thing is that like you have to be super, super careful about how much of the macronutrient you're consuming. So as a vegan you have to make sure. Okay, I'm having this many of this kind of food group, this many of this kind of food group because you want to make sure that you're getting those vitamins and those micronutrients in where as a Mediterranean diet you wouldn't need to do that as much like you have to do it some for sure because you want to make sure. That you're not eating too much as well. Because I think with the Mediterranean diet studies, I've seen so many studies where they just let people eat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Can I ask, how do you explain that 600, 700,000 people in the, in the overall health outcome work, University of Oxford and the. In the Christian Adventist study, which I mentioned a few times, if people are struggling to take those supplements and if people aren't doing veganism properly, you'd expect their life expectancies to be significantly reduced or not 20% more. They beat the pescetarians on life expectancy significantly. They've got better health outcomes in terms of their risk of cancers, diabetes, obesity. So in practice you say people are bad at doing this and yeah, of course they are. That rings true for us intuitively. But when you look at nearly a million people and you look at what they're actually doing, the vegan significantly has the better health outcome. And I want a car that's going to go far. It has fewer trips to the garage, that it goes faster and longer. That's what I want, good health outcomes. So the same should be true of my body as well.

[Third Year Med Student]

But the thing is, is that there are truths to that, that definitely cancer is a thing where it's decreased. In veganism, however, the Mediterranean diet does have those decreased things.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How do you explain the.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I don't know.

[Third Year Med Student]

I'm still a student, I'm still learning and, and maybe I will find that study and I'm maybe able to answer that better for you at some point. But as I see it, well, check it out.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Take my email or something. After genuinely read it, I'll genuinely be interested to hear what you think of it because I read it, the difference is huge.

[Third Year Med Student]

But I think when it comes to the Mediterranean diet versus the vegan diet, the vegan diet might be better in some ways, but only just by a little bit. With the Mediterranean diet, you still have decreased cancer rates, you still have decreased cardiovascular risk, you still have decreased risk of diabetes if you're doing those things properly. And so. And one of the things we learn. I've never in my medical school career been told to recommend the vegan diet as like the first diet to go to. It's always been the Mediterranean diet or the dash diet, which is something where it's like less processed food, less salt.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Third Year Med Student]

And I will say, I will admit there are red meats out there that are probably not as good for you. Yes, exactly. But when it comes to like processed

[Dr. Jack Symes]

food, when you're comparing the beef Burgers for a regular burger. Recent studies are showing that you're way less likely to develop heart disease by having the ultra processed vegan burger over the beef burger. We're not surprised by this either, are we?

[Third Year Med Student]

Ultra processed vegan burger is better.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The beyond meat one significantly.

[John Regalato]

Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

That was a pleasure. Thank you. I really appreciate that. That was a good conversation. Thank you. How's it going, dude? What's your name, sir?

[Faux Day Sella]

Hey, my name is Faux Day Sella.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I am a Faux Day seller.

[Faux Day Sella]

Yes, sir. I'm a Sierra Leonean professional boxer.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Cool.

[Faux Day Sella]

I simply just. I just want to have the conversation.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Boxers are vegans, aren't they?

[Faux Day Sella]

Oh, no, they're not.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Brian Jennings, two. Yeah. Akali.

[Faux Day Sella]

That's three. Okay.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Ali Frazier.

[Faux Day Sella]

I could name you an entire bunch of.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Given the population of vegans. Yes.

[Faux Day Sella]

What's your point?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

That those three either won world championships or competed for them.

[Faux Day Sella]

First of all, David Hay is a bum. Okay. Most current fighters that everybody knows here. Who here knows David Hay? Anybody who knows Mike Tyson. There you go. That's the point. Continue.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm saying, given the proportion of the amount of people that are vegans and given the. Given how these people were vegan in the 2000 and tens, I think it's phenomenal that these three were some of the best boxers in the world. Novak Djokovic, the best tennis player in the world, is vegan. Lewis Hamilton, the best Formula one driver, is vegan. In my view, the best drummer. Travis Barker, is vegan. All these people are vegan. They're the very best in their sport in athleticism. Are they not? Also, it sort of ignores it. Right? So I'm not interested in sort of going tit for tat and going, who's the best boxer in the world? I think some of the best boxers in the world are vegan. I think those three people. People would take you on any day, if you don't mind me saying so.

[Faux Day Sella]

You're sleeping on me a bit there, dog.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But here's. Here's the main thing, right? We think that dog fighting is bad, don't we?

[Faux Day Sella]

Yes, we do.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So what happens when we kill the dog? We eat its flesh and then we fight? Is that wrong as well?

[Faux Day Sella]

What do you mean, we? I don't speak French. I've never done that. So I've never seen anybody that does that either. A chicken, a pig, a cow, a chicken. But you're saying that in such a Western term.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What's the difference?

[Faux Day Sella]

The difference is one we raised as a companion and the other one we raised as food.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And that makes the moral difference why

[Faux Day Sella]

it makes a moral difference? Because I need to feed my kids again.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Do you think cockfighting's bad? Having two chickens with razor blades on their legs?

[Faux Day Sella]

That's not what you ask. You ask, is it a problem to raise one as a companion?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

We agree that harming animals for sport is bad. And therefore, if we think that it would translate to us harming animals for our own sporting excellence, wouldn't it?

[Faux Day Sella]

No, it would not.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Why it would not?

[Faux Day Sella]

Because of the feeling. You're coming in from a very emotional feeling.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What does that mean?

[Faux Day Sella]

Point of view.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm not emotional at all.

[Faux Day Sella]

You're very emotional. You keep a very stoic face, but you're very emotional on the inside.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

There's nothing wrong with emotions. Emotions are evaluative things, aren't they?

[Faux Day Sella]

I guess if you see the world,

[Dr. Jack Symes]

you're ignoring the main point. We both agree that harming animals for sport is bad, but you're having happy to do it.

[Faux Day Sella]

Did I say I was happy to do it?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Well, you're on the meat eating side, aren't you?

[Faux Day Sella]

Of course I'm on the meat eating side.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Okay.

[Faux Day Sella]

Because I come from a world that's realistic. I come from a continent that needs me.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Brian Jennings and David Hay are all living on the moon.

[Faux Day Sella]

Oh, great. There's one or two people you can name out of a. I'm not even.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm not even into boxing. I know the names. Three of them.

[Faux Day Sella]

Anybody here knows those people's names? No. Just because you know something does not matter. They're one world champion.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Have you heard of Novak Djokovic?

[Faux Day Sella]

Of course I have.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Okay, that's interesting. He's probably the best tennis player in the world, isn't he?

[Faux Day Sella]

Oh, he was one of the best tennis players in the world. Have you heard of Mike Tyson? Muhammad Ali?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Imagine if he had a stake, he'd probably stay the best tennis player in the world.

[Faux Day Sella]

Why not? But let's get back to the actual.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The actual thing is, we think that the vegans compete at the highest level alongside the non vegans. But the non vegans, they engage in something which we think is morally wrong, which is harming animals for sport. Agreed?

[Faux Day Sella]

No, not at all. I love the way you put things together. Your accent makes it even better.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But plain fact.

[Nathan]

Plain fact?

[Faux Day Sella]

Plain fact is I find it quite.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Are we flirting?

[Faux Day Sella]

Almost. Maybe if you get a drink after this.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You scare right now.

[Faux Day Sella]

All right, but it's quite Concerning. And I had to get a bit serious about this.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Faux Day Sella]

You come from a place. I believe you're British, correct?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Faux Day Sella]

A place that's very greenery. And I come from a greenery. Yes. Meaning there's a lot of plant space in that region.

[Dr. Pete]

What do you mean?

[Faux Day Sella]

Is there a bunch of trees, so on and so forth? I might be wrong.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Probably just much as the U.S. true.

[Faux Day Sella]

But again, let me finish my point.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Let me clarify.

[Faux Day Sella]

Come on. I come from a continent that has a place called the Sahara Desert that a lot of people depend on me. And you saying that everybody should aim to be.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Aim to be. That's important.

[Faux Day Sella]

Yes. Yes. Again, let me finish. My guy. Aim to be vegan. I think it's very unrealistic in a sense.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

That's the realistic part. Should aim to be. Not that everyone has to be vegan. And there is no circumstances when you can't kill an animal. It's the most sensible claim you could hear. Everyone should aim to be.

[Faux Day Sella]

Yes. But if they can. There's something called somebody just reading a book continuously and having fantasies and the world we live in.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

He's saying I just read a book and have fantasies.

[Faux Day Sella]

You come off as that.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I've worked on farms.

[Faux Day Sella]

Great. But have you lived in a place that people depend on? Me.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Have I lived in a place where people depend on meat?

[Faux Day Sella]

Yes. Have you seen a lot. That's my point.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But the reason a lot of these people depend on meat. Again, as I mentioned earlier.

[Faux Day Sella]

Yes.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Because in 82% of the countries where they're starving, the main produce which is the plant based agriculture is fed to the animals and prices out the local population. Countries like Sudan, countries like Ethiopia. Those countries have some of the highest.

[Faux Day Sella]

Where is Sudan located?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

In Africa.

[Faux Day Sella]

What part of Africa?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

On the east coast of Africa.

[Faux Day Sella]

Sub Saharan, right?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Faux Day Sella]

What happened to majority which has the biggest countries that cannot grow plants? They would leave them to depend heavily. Heavily.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What do you think they're eaten.

[Faux Day Sella]

They're eating camels, are they not?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Sorry? Sudan, one of has the. One of the biggest livestock in the whole of Africa. And the animals there are eating camels.

[Faux Day Sella]

Did you hear me say that?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm trying to understand what you're on about.

[Faux Day Sella]

Okay, let me say it very slowly. Maybe my American English is not going so well.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

We're not going on this date, dude.

[Faux Day Sella]

Okay, Come on, we have to. It's such a great chemistry. What I said was a place like sub Saharan Africa and Sahara Africa itself depend heavily on certain me. Correct?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Faux Day Sella]

And you cannot grow Plants in those areas.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You're not discriminating my claim.

[Faux Day Sella]

I cannot force those areas to depend on plants.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

We're not doing that. We agree. I don't understand what the difference is. If you're living in freaking Greenland or on the North Pole, you can grow plants there either. But my claim is that veganism is the practical rule to avoid the unnecessary suffering wherever possible. And my claim now is that everyone should aim to be vegan. But the reason why the overwhelming number of people, People can't go vegan is because of factory farming, because of animal agriculture. We're not living there now. None of you are living there. It's not an excuse for anybody in this room.

[Faux Day Sella]

You keep saying we. First of all, you don't know any, anything about these.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

They're all meteors.

[Faux Day Sella]

So what's wrong with that? First of all, the judgmental inside of you is crazy. So we can't go on this date at all.

[Skeptical Christian]

All right?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Judgment. Secondly, I know they're all meat eaters. I know they're all. Some people have flew in, some people have managed to get here and they have access to plant based products, yet they choose to eat meat.

[John Regalato]

Okay, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I got you on that one. I'm gonna say. I got you though. Yeah.

[John Regalato]

I'm breaking protocol. This is real quick. Just go with it, Just go with it. I don't wanna waste all their time, but I have you say everybody should be vegan.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Aim to be.

[John Regalato]

Everybody should aim to be vegan.

[Christian Debater]

Okay.

[John Regalato]

I can't hide from the fact I'm a carnivore. Carnivore, carnivore. There's two groups of people, though, that I want to challenge your claim on. The first is hunters. So I have a good friend, I grew up in Colorado. I have a good friend, he's a hunter. Probably one of the most ethical people I know. I could make the argument that people like him actually do quite a bit to minimize animal suffering because he doesn't participate in industrial farming. He kills his own meat. And he has made the argument to me that, you know, taking an animal's life in the wild, you're sparing that animal from the worst death, a worst death that it will experience. Because when an animal dies in the wild, it's usually pretty ugly. It suffers a lot more. So he's reducing the suffering of animals. So I think you might be actually more aligned with hunters than you realize.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm more aligned with hunters than the person who's engaging in factory farming or what they think is conscientious farming, for sure. What I will say is, first of all, the hunters typically aren't honest about why they do it. I think they do it because it's fun. I think they do it because it taps into that evolutionary feeling. Like having sex feels good, being warm feels good, hunting feels good. I don't think it's sensible to deny those things. When you look at when the hunting elk and deer, for example, in Wyoming, in the national park there, the state actually functions the feeding of deers and elks during the winter to make sure the population's up. And then the hunter goes, I'm just there for population control. And in Texas, too, you've got these automatic feeders, and so they're keeping the population up just to go hunting. Naggy Ellis did a research paper on this and found that 65% of all the deers and elks that are killed are male. So if you want to keep the population down, what you do is you kill females. You don't kill 65% males because one male can impregnate five females and so can two. Right. So it's not that. That's not the reason why they're doing it. And they're doing it to catch the. With the ounce. But on the terms of a more optimal system. Agreed? Yeah.

[John Regalato]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So here's, here's the problem with the argument that we're relieving the suffering. Say, for example, I really liked having puppies. I love puppies. I'm a big dog lover myself. But, you know, having a dog, it's a handful. So at 11 months old, I sneak up behind my puppy and I slit its throat.

[Brian]

Right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Kill it quickly.

[John Regalato]

That'd be terrible.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Death is bad, right? In and of itself. It would be wrong to do that even if it was painless. If I had 50 puppies over my life and I just killed them painlessly. So when you deprive the elk or the deer or the pig of life when you're hunting, you're taking away the life in the same way as you might do a puppy. Now, there is an argument to say, and this is perhaps where we can find some agreement, that the deaths are going to be typically worse from predators, natural predators, wolves, you know, big cats than they are going to be for hunters. There are bad hunters too. But on the whole, you know, you can probably expect to bleed out 30 seconds to a minute, average hunter when you. You take in a shot with a rifle and that can typically range 8 to 10 minutes if you've got a predator that's crushing a skull or bleeding out of the neck. So you have to ask yourself, honestly, the average elk or deer has been killed about 4 to 6 years old, but they could live twice that length. So you're depriving them of two minutes of pain and suffering. Yeah. But you're also depriving them of six years of life.

[John Regalato]

Right. But I think a hunter would argue that they're not killing all the elk. You know, there's, it's a unfortunate fate for a select elk, but then they're killing that elk for me. So I guess my only argument is it seems like maybe rejecting hunting might be too myopic or idealistic for your mission because they seem like they're kind of a good ally for your cause, which is to reduce the suffering.

[Chef Skeptic]

Frivolous suffering.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah. I don't think reducing suffering is all that's important. You can blow up the whole world right now and that would end all suffering, but I don't think that's something we should aspire towards.

[John Regalato]

I agree with that. Another question I have, should children be vegan?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[John Regalato]

Why doesn't that feel like a bit of a risk?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'd say the biggest risks on health outcomes, we're talking overall health outcomes. So we're trying to avoid the nutrition game. Not to dodge the argument, but to go. When you're looking at nearly a million people and their health outcomes, the kids are going to be like child obesity in this country. Right. Huge problem. They're going to have lower bmi. If they're vegan, they can get all the nutrients that they need on the vegan diet. They're less likely to develop these cancers and you know, it seems obvious that that's something they should be doing.

[Chef Skeptic]

So you're saying I should take the

[John Regalato]

bacon away from my daughter?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Definitely. Even with the ultra processed foods I think we've been speaking about earlier, you have an ultra processed beyond burger or something. There's been studies that show that they're way better than having the beef burgers or the bacon. So, you know, if you want, if you want your kid not to be fat, cancer riddled and have heart problems, then yeah, it's probably best to make them, make them a good old fashioned vegan. Okay, I'm off. Nice to meet you. The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels.

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[Dr. Jack Symes]

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[Dr. Pete]

Hey, we meet again.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey. Hey, Dr. Jack. Good to see you again. Sorry we didn't get a chance to. Let me hear some of your views a bit more this year.

[Dr. Pete]

Thank you very much. Thank you. So I'm a Greek Orthodox Christian. We spend two thirds of the year as vegans. But I have no issues with anything that you're describing. But I'm also not motivated by the same sort of like singular motivations. So, like, I'm not doing it to save the animals. I'm doing it for fasting. I'm doing it for restraint. I'm doing it for virtue development. And so in a certain sense, I wanted to ask you this. If I told you there was a population of Greek Orthodox monks, they all look like Gandalf in Mount Athos, and they've been outliving society for 1200 years. And they actually are vegetarians throughout the year. And then vegans sort of spliced in. Yeah, we actually mimic the same patterns. But you know, it's just so. It's so ironic to me that their goal is to. Is to pursue virtue. And as a result of the second, third, fourth order effects of that, they save a lot of life around them.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, great.

[Dr. Pete]

And what I. I've also noticed a lot of vegans who seem to put and elevate the animal at the top seem to get everything sort of off

[Dr. Jack Symes]

balance doing that though.

[Dr. Pete]

Like for instance, Christpiracy. Ever heard the documentary? The guy basically claims that Jesus came to save animals. Now that might have been a third, fourth order effect.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Humans are animals.

[Dr. Pete]

Well, beasts of burden. Okay, however you want to describe it.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You say they're animals though, right?

[Dr. Pete]

I would, I would. So are we but the apex predator, the apex creation? You know, my colleagues here were talking about Genesis. There were only three promises when we left the Garden of Eden. It was pain, it was work, and it was death. Death enters the world so that sin would not live forever. And I thought was interesting is that when Noah's flood occurs, you know, whether it's literal or not, the directive was eat meat so that sin wouldn't live as long.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And God says, like, I demand a sacrifice or repentance for all the meat. That's eaten as well. He didn't just go, the hell with it, just eat meat. He goes, I want blood for like, essentially blood for blood.

[Dr. Pete]

Yes. But then Solomon ends up killing enough animals that he couldn't even count. Want them all at some point. So there's a little bit of a confusion there.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

He's not too happy, is it?

[Dr. Pete]

But I'm just saying though, is that I, I agree that there's this aiming, but I also think you have to be careful as to what you're aiming for.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Dr. Pete]

And so I don't think we're aiming for macronutrients. We're aiming for a better world.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah. Can I ask you about St. Augustine of Hippo? I assume you're familiar with his work, sixth century. The, you know, the guy who tells us this original sin and really makes it a thing in the.

[Dr. Pete]

He's more of a Latin group of per people. But that's fine.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It says we're naturally predisposed towards lying, cheating, stealing. In the atheistic tradition as well. Thomas Hobbes, English philosopher, 17th century. He says our fundamental nature is a war of every man against every man and life will be nasty, bruises and short. That's our natures.

[Dr. Pete]

Right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

He's an apex predator. But we know that we shouldn't lie, cheat, steal, and we shouldn't just engage in wars, even though that's in our nature. We've been doing it for a long time. So the Christian view, we should transcend that. But the main thing is, even if you didn't buy these like, like vegan Christian arguments, and you thought again we spoke earlier, God creates the world perfectly vegetarian. It will be vegetarian at the end of time. So I think that's a really strong argument. I also think that angels mistreating humans is bad. I'm sure you'd agree. So it would translate there. I think those are two reasonable arguments. But even with those, you'd go, okay. It doesn't seem like the naturalistic argument gets you there either.

[Dr. Pete]

Could I just argue though that there's kind of a false dichotomy. It's like unless you're a billionaire, you're impoverished. And what I'm saying is that I think people are sort of of on a spectrum of that sort of wellness, virtue sort of line. And so, you know, I think we're still winning the war here against, let's say, unnecessary suffering or triviality.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I think pretty much it's unnecessary not just for the animals as well. Right. We're stewards of the earth.

[Dr. Pete]

Sure.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So when you've got 91% of all deforestation because of. Because of the cattle industry or because of animal agriculture, when 80 to 90% of all species are going extinct because of animal agriculture, that's WWF and the UN.

[Dr. Pete]

But 99% of all species have already gone extinct to this point in human history. Right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And the main driver being the consumption of animals, the destructions of the ocean. I think the Christian has a huge responsibility to be a good steward and not do those things. Would you agree?

[Dr. Pete]

Well, I would say that, you know, rain can cause floods or it can be essential for life. And I wouldn't fight floods and get rid of rain. You know, we still need the rain. So what I'm trying to say is you don't need to feel like you can just say the argument from before is kind of still applicable now, which is that it's inevitable and it's essential.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It's not inevitable and it's not essential.

[Dr. Pete]

I don't know if that's true. Come to my, er.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Well, I mentioned a second ago the Christian advice. I've mentioned this a bunch of times. The University of Oxford study, 500,000 people. I think that's really strong evidence that you don't need it.

[Dr. Pete]

I wrote a book on the topic. I think you're right. The point is. The difference is. The difference is that the aim. The aim has to be right. The aim has to be right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey, Dr. Jack.

[John Regalato]

Pause. You've been voted out by the majority.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

My next surrounded claim is that factory farming is one of the worst moral atrocities in history.

[John Regalato]

All right, if you would like to debate this claim, get to the chair in three, two, one.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey, bud, how's it going?

[Nathan]

Hey.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

All right. What's your name, sir?

[Faux Day Sella]

Gerard.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nice to meet you. Charles.

[Nathan]

Okay, so you said one of. So I just want to get the ranking system down here. Okay, so we're going to have Holocaust up here. Is factory farming better or worse than the Holocaust?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I don't want to play top Trumps with the worst things happened. I'm saying one off the worst thing that's happened.

[Nathan]

Well, I'd like to know though, like where, because you clearly have some metric.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Do you want to hear that? Do you want to hear the reason? John, hear the reason and then you can respond.

[Nathan]

Well, I want to know the rankings. We have Armenia.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'll give you the argument. I'll be quick and you can come straight back. So there are around 80 billion cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys that are slaughtered every year for human consumption. When it comes to fish it's in between 3 and 10 trillion. The difficulty in getting the fish is for every pound of fish you catch, you get about three to five pounds of Baikal. So we're talking trillions and tens of billions. But it's not just the non human animal suffering which is bad. Obviously factory farming has huge impacts on people. Earlier on we were speaking about how 30 to 60 million children die of starvation each year, 82% living in countries where the majority of the producers is fed to non human animals. It's also true. And I'll just give you one more example of diseases too. According to the World Health Organization, 75% of all emerging diseases are zoonotic. Zoonotic diseases such as Ebola, swine flu, arguably COVID 19 on the fence.

[Nathan]

Okay, let me go through as well.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So you've got tens of millions of deaths, hundreds of millions.

[Nathan]

Let me start there.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And the climate destruction too.

[Nathan]

First you started with the numbers of death of animals, right? Like that's a relevant metric for you. How many deaths of cows is equal to the death of one Jewish person in Auschwitz? Give me the number.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How many cows for one Jewish person?

[Nathan]

Because you said, I asked you why it was bad and you said because the number of cows that are slaughtered every year. So I'm asking you, what's your ratio? Like, how many cows dying is as bad as someone getting gassed in Auschwitz?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Can we extract the Jewish person? Auschwitz? I'm just using.

[Nathan]

Well, I'm using the worst I can think of.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Well, I don't like to play into the answer. Are you cool?

[Nathan]

How about the Armenian genocide? Can we talk about that one?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How many cows are worth a human being? I think, I think, I think a human being is significantly more valuable than a cow.

[Nathan]

How much?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Why? Because a cow lives for 20 years and a human being will live for 70 or 80 years.

[Nathan]

So four times. So a cow is. Four cows is roughly.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'll give you a number. I'll say a thousand cows.

[Nathan]

A thousand cows is the worth of a human being.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Is all human beings just arbitrary number?

[Nathan]

Well, so you're being arbitrary. You're not like, you're not locked into some sort of like metric?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

No, I don't know how many cows.

[Chef Skeptic]

No.

[Nathan]

Well, but you seem to be very confident that factory farming is bad because of the numbers, right? That's the very first thing you want

[Dr. Jack Symes]

of human beings as well. I'm saying, I'm saying if you.

[Nathan]

Hold on, you're being disingenuous on the human beings. So imagine a number.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Now let's no, no.

[Nathan]

Imagine a world where I can create factory farming where no humans die, but the animals are still going to die. You're not going to be okay with that?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

No, I'm not going to be okay.

[Nathan]

Right, because it's not about.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It's unnecessary.

[Nathan]

Because it's not about the human being necessary. Right. So let's focus on your actual objection, the number of animals that are dying.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Did you hear my definition of veganism earlier?

[Nathan]

No.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Well, I was.

[Nathan]

You should gave several.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But anyways, I gave you one definition and I said that veganism is an ethical rule to avoid products and practices that cause unnecessary suffering to animals. Human beings are animals. So I do care about human beings.

[Nathan]

Right, but you don't care about human beings.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Why wouldn't I do a thousand ratio? Why wouldn't I put human beings in there?

[Nathan]

Well, human beings are animals, but I.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

They're the only good.

[Nathan]

They're the only ones.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So I do care about human beings.

[Nathan]

Well, you care about some animals.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

No, I care about human beings because that concludes in animals. Right, but let's say, okay, there are non human animals.

[Nathan]

But now I'm asking if. Let's say there are two boats and

[Dr. Jack Symes]

one of them is going, no, no, there are hundreds.

[Nathan]

I'm going to give you a hypothetical and I'd like you to answer it just briefly. I'll be very brief. There are two boats. One has 3,000 cows, one has a human being on it. One of the boats will sink. Which boat will you sink? 3,000 cows or will you kill a human being?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'll kill a human being.

[Nathan]

Over 3,000 cows. 2,000 cows. You'll kill a human being to save 2,000 cows?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah. What about you?

[Nathan]

How about chickens?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What about you?

[Nathan]

I'm saving the human every time.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

An infinite number of cows, an infinite

[Nathan]

number of cows would have the problem of. Then the world would be out of cows. And I wouldn't want that to happen. But that's ultimately any animal.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Any animal would you put on there? Because we're talking about veganism. Any animal you put on there?

[Nathan]

Any non human. No, human animals are the only animals I have moral agency for.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Okay, so how about Neanderthals? Who were our ancestors 40,000 years ago? Who your ancestors would be having sex with, who would look just like. Well, they were.

[Nathan]

Well, I don't really have any moral relationship with the Neanderthals. If you change the hypothetical. So I do, that'll change.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So why humans more valuable than Neanderthals?

[Nathan]

Because morality stems from our relationships with others. It doesn't stem from some weird trait like do they feel pain just from the relationships.

[Faux Day Sella]

Right.

[Nathan]

Because.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What do you think it stems from? Feeling pain.

[Nathan]

You think it stems from feeling pain?

[John Regalato]

That's silly.

[Pantheist Vegan]

No.

[Nathan]

Yes, it does.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Morality comes from pain. I said any of the major world philosophies would agree with.

[Nathan]

Which is a great appeal to authority,

[Dr. Jack Symes]

and I'm very happy it's not an appeal to authority.

[Nathan]

There is no moral philosophy say that. So Platonism wouldn't agree. Agree with you on there. So that's platism.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Wouldn't agree with what? That feeling.

[Nathan]

That feeling pain is like the end all be all of. Like what? Morality, Space.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I didn't say it was the end all be all I said. But it's what you're.

[Nathan]

So if tomorrow scientists came out and said, actually treat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Plato's form of the good coincides with unnecessary suffering.

[Nathan]

It coincides with eating.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Once you brought this together with the form, then you're going to be harmed forever.

[Nathan]

No, if you're brought together with the form of the good, you have no problem killing animals for food. That's why the people who studied Platonism, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates ate meat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You think the form of the good involves unnecessary pain?

[Nathan]

Yeah, I think we're getting a little in the weeds. But it can involve unnecessary pain on things that are not part of your moral community. Yeah, it's not relevant anyway.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So you think would allow extreme suffering for trivial pleasure?

[Nathan]

Not for no good reason, no. That's going back to your first claim that it's trivial. Meeting is not a trivial pleasure. But I'm gonna try to stick to

[Dr. Jack Symes]

how is it not a trivial pleasure?

[Nathan]

Plants could feel harm.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How is it not? Hold on.

[Nathan]

You can't just interrupt me in the conversation.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I've answered all of your questions.

[Nathan]

You have not. I'm actually trying to ask you one.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm asking tomorrow.

[Nathan]

It came out that. No, you asked me several. If it came out tomorrow, that's my claim. Feel pain five times as strongly as animals, would you say we can't eat trees?

[John Regalato]

Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I would.

[Nathan]

Okay.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Thank you.

[Nathan]

Thank you.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Appreciate it. How's it going, buddy? What's your name?

[John Regalato]

I'm David.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nice to meet you, David. Jack.

[Christian Debater]

Jack, right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How you doing? I'm good.

[Christian Debater]

So you mentioned that you see killing animals and meat eating as trivial pleasures, correct?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Christian Debater]

So I just wanted to ask you, are you religious in any way?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The religious would say I'm not, and the atheists would say I'm not an atheist either. I'm what you call a pantheist. I believe God and the world are identical. And obviously the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims have told us that that's not Abrahamic. And the atheists would say it's ridiculous to call the world God. So I'm sort of religiously homeless, but I consider myself to be a pantheist and a religious believer.

[Christian Debater]

Okay, no problem.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Trivially speaking. Okay.

[Christian Debater]

I'm personally Christian.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey, great. Cool.

[Christian Debater]

Yeah. So I wanted to say that killing animals, it's not something that's binary. It's not something that's a trivial pleasure. That's something that you keep mentioning that.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Do you believe in the Bible?

[Christian Debater]

Yes, in the Bible. In the Bible, in Genesis, it mentions that animals, they were created for humans to consume.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Genesis 1:29, the first teaching on it. God gives human beings a strictly vegetarian diet.

[Christian Debater]

God also says in the Bible, in Genesis, that animals are meant to be consumed and killed by people.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How do we sin? So God creates the world. Genesis 1:29, he says we're allowed to eat fruits and trees that bear seeds. Then the original sin, that is evil, enters the world. And at the end of time. At the end, that has nothing to do with either. At the end of time, Isaiah 11, the lion will eat straw with the oxygen. So it's almost as if on the Christian tradition, the whole world is sandwiched together in veganism. God creates the world perfectly. We sin and live in sin, and at the end of time, we're brought together with God in vegetarianism again.

[Christian Debater]

Okay. Like I was saying, I.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So you should be a vegetarian exclusively.

[Christian Debater]

It's not exclusively vegan. I'm not. I'm not going to be a vegetarian.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It is vegan. It's exclusively vegan. Genesis 1:29 is vegan.

[Christian Debater]

Noah's ark was made for a purpose, correct? Right. So Noah, he was brought to Earth.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

He was punishing human beings for their sin. He punishes the animals.

[Christian Debater]

He was brought to Earth and he was creating a ship and he made all these animals come on a ship for them to survive and carry out their life, receiving all those from the animals, receiving all that, the benefits. You know, they have side products too. They have byproducts, right? Animals that create all these. As you say, it's meant for trivial pleasures. They create a lot of byproducts that are helping with medicine.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

That's a different helping with. On the Christian argument, they create the world.

[Christian Debater]

These people are dying because people are eating meat. Correct. But people are also surviving because people are eating Meat, I think the trade offs for eating meat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And why did God the world that way?

[Christian Debater]

I don't have all the answers. I'm not perfect, I'm not God.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And God hats create perfect.

[Christian Debater]

I'm not God. That's not the basis of my argument either. I'm just saying that animals have a lot more benefits as opposed to negative.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm telling you right now, I'm saying

[Christian Debater]

animals have a lot more benefits as opposed to negatives.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And talking about if John created the

[Christian Debater]

world from a very like binary sense

[Dr. Jack Symes]

of thinking, if God creates the world perfectly and then we sin, definitionally, it's worse to eat meat than not sweet meat. But there's a separate argument as well.

[Christian Debater]

You spoke yourself about utilitarianism, correct? Is it not benefiting a greater number of people to eat meat, to consume me? And to have all those byproducts of meat to help many people with medicine,

[Dr. Jack Symes]

with clothing, different types of food, Is it not better we're supposed to have

[Christian Debater]

all those, to have all those products as opposed to not of the earth?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

According to Robert Goodman, 51% of all human, cause of all climate change is caused by the animal agriculture industry. There is no way that on a Christian worldview you can justify factory farming.

[Christian Debater]

51%.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The last two popes have both condemned factory farming in their own words. It is not a Christian worldview. David Clough, the Christian theologian, the vigangelist he calls himself, has made this case very strongly. But there's a separate argument as well, very brief. Briefly, in Revelations 20, God cast down Satan to hell for all of eternity for the things that Satan did. There is a great chain of being on Christianity. God, angels, humans, non human animals, plants. When the angels sin and exploit the people below them, such as Satan, leading humanity astray in the garden, exploit the people below them, leads them astray, then God punishes them. So he punishes the angels even though they're more rational, more, have more free will, have more powers and are closer to God in the great chain of being. He punishes them for hurting humans. He will punish humans too for hurting animals. God loves even The Sparrows. Matthew 10, Matthew 12. What do you mean you don't believe? It's the Bible? It's your scripture.

[Christian Debater]

Genesis.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You don't believe the Bible then?

[Christian Debater]

It's not what I'm saying.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Genesis 129 does say that.

[John Regalato]

Pause. Please return to your seat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey. Pleasure. Thank you. Cheers.

[Brian]

Dude.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah. You've been making a lot of movement back there.

[Dr. Pete]

You seem a little bit.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yes, excited. What's your name, sorry?

[Chef Skeptic]

Sinjin.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Sinjin, that's an interesting name.

[Chef Skeptic]

You know, you were talking about how, you know, God made the whole. The idea of making it a vegetarian diet. What introduced the world to sin was Eve eating a fruit.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Classic women.

[Chef Skeptic]

Okay, I wasn't going to.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

No, sir. I'm just kidding. Sorry. It's a joke. English humor.

[Chef Skeptic]

Okay, fair enough. But yeah. So it was an apple, or at least that's what we.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It was. Is a fruit. It could have been watermelon, it could have been a pineapple. We're not told. Yeah.

[Chef Skeptic]

But as far as we know, it was a fruit that, you know, when Eve ate it introduced sin into the world.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chef Skeptic]

So, like, you could say that. Oh, yeah. God didn't want the whole just to only eat meat. But it's a re. The. One of the fruits is one of the reasons that sin. Sin was introduced into it. Temptation, fruit and sin.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah. It's a metaphor though, isn't it? It's an allegory. It's not actually a real. It wasn't Adam and Eve and they didn't eat a real fruit. If you think that they did. The point of God picking out that fruit was to say, don't rebel against me like Lucifer did. Right. He's saying, you will do better. You made in my image. Imago DEI here on earth reflects my goodness. Okay. So as I was saying a Moment ago, Genesis 1:20, he creates the world. Vegan, God's perfect. God is the greatest of all conceivable beings. And so definitionally, if you think God is perfect and create the world perfectly, then being vegan or vegetarian is morally superior on the Abrahamic worldview. Well, excluding Muslims because they have a different creation story. If you're Jewish or if you're Christian, then that would hold.

[Chef Skeptic]

I also want to ask, you have been a philosopher for how many years now by chance?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I've lost count. Maybe 16, 17 years.

[Chef Skeptic]

Okay. And I believe that a majority of ancient philosophers, they look at it through a human perspective, not an animal perspective.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Chef Skeptic]

And they are not necessarily thinking about the animals. It's not because they don't care about the animals. Obviously, life is important. But at the end of the day, at the social hierarchy, the more superior and more capable being trumps over, say, a cow and a chicken. Like, yes. You know, cows and chickens are cute and all.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm not playing footsie with you.

[Chef Skeptic]

But yeah, humans are the dominant species, top of the food chain, dominate. And there's also the philosophy. I don't. I don't remember the exact name of it, but that life consumes life and it's not through anything malice, but it's rather just to help, you know, sustain us. Because there's a lot of.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So this, this commits. And we heard a version of it earlier on, but your girl was just, you know, I don't know what she was doing.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Plants matter.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So then it was the naturalistic fallacy. David hume in the 18th century says explanation and observation aren't the same thing as justification. For example, evolution by natural selection dictates that we have a biological drive towards having sex and reproducing. But what it doesn't do is give us a drive towards consensual sex and non consensual sex. But we'd both agree that consensual sex is more moral than non consensual sex, so therefore we should take that drive and do otherwise.

[Chef Skeptic]

If you want to go the evolution route, then there's a lot of animals that have also evolved over time to be hunters.

[John Regalato]

You've been voted out by the majority.

[Chef Skeptic]

That was fast.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

All right, you're all good. Hey, nice to meet you.

[Skeptical Christian]

Nice to meet you.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What's your name, sir? Dara.

[Skeptical Christian]

Yes.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nice to meet you, Dar. I'm Jack.

[Skeptical Christian]

Nice to meet you.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How goes it? What's going on?

[Skeptical Christian]

It's going well. So I'm sorry for starting again with like the Christian argument. I thought, I thought, yes. I thought Jesus. Jesus fed people fish.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

There's nothing of Jesus feeding people. Well, if Jesus was to feed people, he would have fed people fish. Yeah.

[Daniela]

Yeah.

[Skeptical Christian]

So how is it, like, not.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It's probably the best. It's probably the best objection to all Christians should be vegan for sure. The only thing which we can say accurately from the scriptures that he probably did eat fish. He obviously comparably also says God loves even the sparrows. Matthew 10. He also says Matthew 12. When there's a lamb down a hole, he's speaking to the Pharisees. He goes, even on your day off, boys, you're going to help that lamb out there, aren't you? And they go, why would we do that? And they go, because humans are more valuable. But it's got comparable value. It depends whether you read it allegorically or not. It depends whether you want to separate the historical Jesus from the regular Jesus. Historically, in Palestine, Jesus would have had slaves. Jesus would have been married. It's not typically what people think Jesus is going to be.

[Faux Day Sella]

Right.

[Skeptical Christian]

Like, that's why using the Old Testament, it's like really outdated when you're talking to a Christian, because in the Old Testament they tell you about how to manage your slaves and you can we all agree that slavery is not right. So if you use the Old Testament, it's really like not a valid argument for a Christian.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Do you think it was relevant that Jesus was a man?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

No.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Palestinian?

[Skeptical Christian]

No.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Human?

[Daniela]

Yes.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Why?

[Skeptical Christian]

Because he came for humans.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Just for humans, not for the whole world. I thought it made it pretty clear that it was to unite God with the whole of his creation.

[Skeptical Christian]

That like, I don't think he ever spoke about salvation of cows.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

No, not salvation of cows, but the whole world. He made it clear that he was here for the.

[Skeptical Christian]

And he spoke to humans. I don't think he ever like evangelized cows or like butterflies and birds and talk to them about repentance and.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Right, so God. So Jesus doesn't value the non human animals.

[Skeptical Christian]

He didn't come here to evangelize cows and birds.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

No. Because they don't speak.

[Nicole Ashley]

Right.

[Skeptical Christian]

So it is relevant that he's a human and not a cow because he came to evangelize and to sell, like for the salvation of humans.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, but he also came. My argument was that he also came in that time and place for Palestinians in the first century, but he came for all people, even though we weren't there at that time and place. And even though he was a man and a Palestinian, he's still here for you and I right now according to the Christian tradition. And again, the Christian tradition. The Christian doesn't go. The whole of the Old Testament is a load of rubbish and we shouldn't take it seriously.

[Skeptical Christian]

Yeah, no, no, no. At all.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And so what's the point that did create the world and made it vegan and vegetarian? And at the end of time, when the lion eats straw with the ox, it seems like that is better for the Christian to do.

[Skeptical Christian]

Okay, okay, that's okay. Let's leave it there. Let's leave it there because this is not a history class. So how can you evaluate suffering?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How can I evaluate it?

[Skeptical Christian]

Yeah, how can you say that something suffers more than. Than something else? Right. You value, you value like the lives of all animals equally. Right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The mistake that people think people make about veganism is that we think that all animals are equal. There's a level playing field and that they're all, you know.

[Skeptical Christian]

So you do have a hierarchy for your suffering, a hierarchy for animals. And where do you get that information from? It's not scientifical, right?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, it's a blend of neuroscience. It's a blend of animal behavior and information we can get. Get from zoologists.

[Skeptical Christian]

So you're arguing that because there are like this amount of cows and they have this amount of nervous terminal, then that equates to like this amount of humans?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah. If you look at the neck of a chicken, a cow or a pig, you'll find that it's got very similar nerve endings and bones.

[Skeptical Christian]

Okay, so you did all the mathematics to decide that it was more.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

If you've got the same nerve endings on your neck and you've got a

[Skeptical Christian]

development, you need to do mathematics to create that hierarchy. And I'm not saying that it's.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Is. Is.

[Skeptical Christian]

I'm not saying that it's not a strategy.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I can't do maths. I'm saying if you slit my throat and you slit a cow's throat, you're going to feel a very similar amount of pain.

[Skeptical Christian]

Okay, I.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It's a sensible inference.

[Skeptical Christian]

Okay.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How many, like, nervous systems? How many what?

[Skeptical Christian]

How many, like, nervous systems? Like, how.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How many nervous systems?

[Skeptical Christian]

Like, why? Like nervous. Terminal. Nervous terminals. Well, how are you comparing that? How do you know?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How do I know? Because you.

[Skeptical Christian]

That the cow and the chicken and the.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I don't know about you. I. But you have to make a central inference. This is Descartes problem of other minds. But there are sensible inferences that you can draw on the base of it.

[Skeptical Christian]

So if you don't know all this information, how do you make a hierarchy?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Well, if I slit your throat now, would that be bad? I don't know whether you can suffer or not. Pause. You've been voted out by the threatening at the end. I didn't want to end on that note. Hey, you're good. You're an animal as well, so I wouldn't slit your throat. We're good.

[Dr. Pete]

We're good.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nice to meet you. Hey, dude. Nice to meet you. What's your name?

[John Regalato]

Vidor.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Vidor. I like your shirt.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Thank you. I like yours too.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hang along, Sid.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I agree your points about veganism and your definitions are very correct. But I disagree with the claim that you just made about it being the biggest atrocity in the world. Because I think the biggest atrocity would be people dying.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And star is the biggest atrocity is one of.

[Pantheist Vegan]

One of the biggest atrocities. But I think one of the biggest atrocities would be people dying and starving in places like Mongolia or in places like Antarctica where growing plants is maybe, you know, harder and, you know, where major consumption of food is through meat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And I agree with you completely. And that's Why? I said veganism is a practical rule to do it as far as possible. And also as I mentioned, it doesn't justify. The majority of these children are starving in countries where the produce is fed to the fed to the animals. And I think zoonotic diseases taking tens of millions of lives is bad. So even if you don't care about non human animals, you should be vegan for the sake of human beings as well. Join me. Convert. Are you there? Vegan? You can take my seat.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I was, I was vegetarian for like six months. But you know, come back. Yeah, but I think I was. I feel more, more like myself.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Can we have you back in the chair later? Can we have him back? The time has gone.

[John Regalato]

Oh yeah, you definitely can choose someone later.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Oh cool. Yeah, nice one.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Great.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I might see you later. I don't want to chew everyone down just yet. Thanks everyone. My final surrounded claim is that veganism is good for the world and humanity.

[John Regalato]

If you would like to debate this claim, get to the chair in three, two, one.

[Faux Day Sella]

Nope.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey, Jack, Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Alex. Nice to meet you. Okay, so two things.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

First, speak on up a little bit

[Dr. Jack Symes]

selective hearing and don't do religion because I'll just ignore. Yeah, do you want to hear? Just. I'll be brief. I'll give you the reasons.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Sure.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You can tell me where it goes wrong. So it's good for the world more generally because it's one of the leading causes of climate change. It's good for humanity as well. Let's just take zoonotic diseases as an example. So 75% of all zoonotic diseases that are emerging according to the World Health Organization are those that come from non human animals. That's really dangerous because we haven't built up natural immunity to them. One of the leading theories according to the World Health Organization or what they think is the leading cause of COVID was the wet market in won Yang killed 8 million people. Again, I'm not interested in like debating the cause of COVID so let's just go Ebola, swine flu and bird flu obviously coming from births. So I think that if you don't want vaccinations, we don't want mandatory lockdowns, we don't want forced masks and we don't want tens of millions of people dying in the future. One of the biggest risks to humanity is going to be zoonotic diseases. So I think that's a really strong reason. And then the refugees and all of the climate destruction and the deaths that are going to come from climate change. So I think those are two really good reasons. Okay, so I've got two really important things that I want to ask you.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

So. Animal testing.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

For all of the devices, immunizations.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

They need to, per the fda, do animal testing first so that they get

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

approved for human use.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So are you saying that shouldn't be a thing? Yeah. There's a researcher at Cornell University, a biochemical engineer that thinks only 6% of all of the experiments done on non human animals. Transfer. Harry Harlow was the chief editor of one of the biggest journals in this area. He looked at 2000. Where's the research? So he looked at 2005. Where's the research? I'm giving it you now. No, no, I want to know who wrote the paper. Oh, Harry Harlow, the editor of the Journal of Ken. Comparative and Physiological Psychology.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Really?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And you think that's enough to prove your point? He looked at 2,500 articles and he said, quote, most of the observations, most of the data is not worth publishing and not most of the experiments not worth doing. Rip so here he's, he's straight. No, no, no, hold on. So you're basing what you just said on one person's opinion? No, I just told you 6%. No, his opinion on what? A whole bunch of other. He's one of the experts in the area. Yeah. And I also said that the biochemical engineer at Cornell said the same, so you'd be comfortable with like. That's Michael Schuler. Okay. Anyway, can I finish? No. Can I finish? Thank you. Excuse me. I grew up in New York.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Would you have just wiped out animal testing altogether from the beginning?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Never done it, I think. Well, we wouldn't have had several vaccinations if we, if we tested them on animals first. I think that the argument most often given here is for cancer research and it's shown to have virtually no effect whatsoever. So I think that's one reason, though, if you're going to test it, you test it on human beings. All right, well, I, I politely disagree. I wouldn't say it was polite, but thank you. I didn't say pause.

[John Regalato]

You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey, we're good. We're good.

[Third Year Med Student]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey, nice to meet you, Alex. Thank you. Appreciate it. How many discounts does USAA Auto Insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi vehicle discount. Safe driver discount. New vehicle discount, Storage discount. How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com autodiscounts restrictions apply. Hey, bud.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

Brighton.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey, nice to meet you, Brighton.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

So I would say veganism is not good for, for the world. And my number one point is burgers. Have you ever had a burger with cheese on it?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

Have you had a burger and what do you think?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I think that people aren't the experts. They think about their own mind. Giovanni Siovani did a study in 2023 where he looked at 175 people and give them blind taste tests and informed taste tests. The majority couldn't figure out which one was the beef burger and the plant based burger. And when on the informed taste test, they all preferred the plant based burger over the beef burger. So no, I don't buy it. When we look at what people do when they're not in this debate setting, it's not clear that they prefer it,

[Cheeseburger Lover]

but I would say that I prefer. Yeah, of course, cheeseburgers. Like real cheeseburgers. And I could tell the difference. I have like really good taste buds.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

So I really like when it's not like fake cheeseburgers.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, go for it.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

I prefer like they taste like.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You wouldn't decide. There's, there's gonna be limits this, Right. You like doing lots of things. I assume you like having sex as well. But you certainly wanna. I imagine that you wanna get it in an ethical way.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

Yeah, obviously I think I can get. I mean, if I just go to like the store and buy a burger. That's pretty ethical to me. Well, my other argument you, you mentioned.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Let me give you this question. You can have sex and it was unethical. Non consensual, but it was great. Or you can have the consensual sex and it's not quite as good. Which one do you pick?

[Cheeseburger Lover]

Probably a cheeseburger.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I think, I think you pick out the two.

[Faux Day Sella]

Well, you said.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Which one did you pick out? The two of them. Just pick one.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

The ethical, the ethical.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Don't pick the noggins.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

Well, the ethical one. But I would choose a cheeseburger sex any day.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So the analogy. Okay.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

Can I make another point?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Of course.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

Okay. Thank you.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm glad we agree on that though.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

Absolutely. My other point would be you mentioned a lot of athletes, right? You were talking about athletes. Boxers. I don't know boxers too well, but I know basketball players. And the best basketball player in the world, LeBron James, he eats all the meat. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna eat the meat and I'm gonna become like a really good athlete. That's how I feel. Like all the best athletes in the world are eating so much meat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Not all the best athletes in the world. I gave you some examples.

[Cheeseburger Lover]

LeBron James, he's the best.

[John Regalato]

Okay, pause, pause. You've been voted out by the majority.

[Christian Debater]

Awesome.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey, get yourself a Beyond Burger, dude. Hey. Go ahead. That was a big jump, right?

[Nathan]

Well, I am Mario.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Is that your name, Mario?

[Third Year Med Student]

Yes, it is.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Hey, nice to meet you, Mario.

[Chef Skeptic]

All right.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

So bad for the world, you say?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

See these two here?

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

These are opposable thumbs. We evolved these in order to hunt better. These two pair of legs, bipedal. We are bipedal to become better hunters. Even communicating with each other.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Other.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

We've evolved to become better hunters. Our entire existence as. As human species has been around eating meats. And for you to just say all of a sudden with. To be like, oh, you shouldn't do that anymore, is kind of asinine.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Asinine. Sorry, I didn't know that word.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

It's.

[Pantheist Vegan]

It's just.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

It's the audacious. The audacity to just, like, assume that.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Audacious. Audacious. I didn't say everyone said everyone should aim to be, for a start.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

Aim to be.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The argument makes the National Naturalistic fallacy. We've spoken about it a bunch of times. There are loads of things that evolution by natural selection dictates that we should do that says descriptively, we can give an explanation for it. That doesn't mean we should do that thing.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

Okay, well, here's another question.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

We've engaged in how many wars?

[Third Year Med Student]

True.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And we shouldn't keep doing that. Agree.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

We shouldn't. We shouldn't.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Why shouldn't we? And why shouldn't we do this?

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

I don't know if you should bring

[Dr. Jack Symes]

this one up right now, but answer. Why shouldn't we do that? Why should we engage?

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

Because it's. It's killing our own people.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

People. But only humans count. Yes. Why?

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

I don't think that's ethical to say. Because we are human newsflashes. We're both human.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So it's circular. Humans matter because they're humans. And why do humans matter? Because they're humans. Yes. So it's a circular argument.

[Christian Debater]

I would. I would.

[Faux Day Sella]

You know what?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You can't ground it in anything else.

[John Regalato]

I can.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Let me ask you this. If the human was dead and one was alive, which one would you give the better treatment?

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

The one that is already. That's still alive.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The one that's alive. Yeah. So it's not just about being human. It's about Being a living human, the conscious human or the non conscious human, the one that can feel pain and pleasure, the one that's got freedom of the world, the one that's got projects, long life to live. It's not just the fact they're human. There are lots of intrinsic values to being a human being that are comparable to other non human.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So. Absolutely. That's great. It's not just because here's the thing. And it's comparable to the other animals. Would you agree with that then?

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

I wouldn't say it's comparable to animals. You change your mind even earlier. Even earlier, even you just said,

[John Regalato]

no,

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I don't want someone. I don't want a new argument. I want the thing we're talking about. I want to move the goalposts. You said being human is valuable because it's human. And then when you've listed a bunch of things that are valuable about being human and they count for non human animals as well.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

No, they don't, because animals do not.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Animals aren't conscious.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

They do not have.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Animals aren't conscious.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

They are conscious.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

They are alive.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

They can see more plants.

[Third Year Med Student]

But

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

okay, so animals don't have the level of consciousness.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What does level of consciousness mean?

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

So they don't feel emp. They don't feel as much empathy.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

An elephant, when it comes across another dead elephant, will cry even if it doesn't know it's that true. But they cried when its kitten died. That's empathy.

[Third Year Med Student]

Regardless, what you said was wrong.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

I would also say that you think you're doing so much to help these animals. But let's put an example here. We have two baskets in a grocery cart. One is a pound of carrots and the other is a pound of rotisserie ch.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Chickens.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

Let's say three of them. Three rotisserie chickens versus one pound of carrots.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Some bad shopping right there, dude.

[Animal Consciousness Skeptic]

Well, yeah, obviously it's just an example, but it's just the meat said carrots had just arguably more death involved in getting those carrots to the grocery store than those three chickens. Because of all the pests and rats

[Dr. Jack Symes]

and rabbits, 80% of the soy is given to non human animals. Factory farming, 40 to 1 in your calories.

[Faux Day Sella]

I'm not offending.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So if you want to reduce. If you want to reduce, cross 75%,

[John Regalato]

you've been voted out by the majority. Please return to the chat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Cheers. Thank you, Mario. You take care. Hey, how's it going? Sorry, remind me of your name. It's B. B. How you doing, B?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Good, good, good, good. Okay, so let me ask you something. Do you eat corn?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Not really.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

You don't eat it?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It's not for me, no.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Okay. But vegans do eat corn. It is. You would consider corn vegan?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I think I'd consider corn vegan.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Okay, so I mean, if you're saying that everybody should strive or, you know, the best they can to become vegan, then some vegans are going to choose to eat corn.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Okay. How is corn grown?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

He put it in the ground. You put water on it, you put sunlight on it.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Okay, but it grows in soil.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

And how does soil grow?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How does soil grow?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Well, how does soil grow? Plants? No, how does soil grow the plants? What does soil need?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Nutrients in the soil.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

And what are the nutrients from?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Come on, dude, what is it?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Where the nutrients come from?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The sunlight in the water.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Not the sunlight anymore. We don't have enough sunlight from the

[Dr. Jack Symes]

animals that are grazing on fossil fuels.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Fossil fuels are used to grow corn.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So what's the problem? We have. Okay, too long. I want to know the property contradiction.

[Pantheist Vegan]

So.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

So the point is, you're saying that we want to do better for the environment?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Of course.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Would you say that fossil fuels are good for the environment?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I would say using fossil fuels should be avoided. However, the whole of the animal agricultural industry according to to the UN and one of the most conservative figures is the animal agriculture industry. All of transport combined, every plane, train and car. Put that next to factory farming. In the animal agriculture industry, animal agriculture is more. And the one you want to. Once you account deforestation.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Okay, but wait a minute.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And the emissions from the animals, just very quickly. I'm gonna finish. And once you account for all the side effects of it too, and all the waste, then it becomes about three or four times as much.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Cows don't need to eat corn. What do cows normally eat?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

They can eat grass.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

They can eat exactly grass. So if we just fed cows grass, their natural diet, which is actually healthier for them, which would actually prohibit.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And overgrazing creates dead zones. Yeah. A 35 of all the US mainland is used growing cattle.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

If we. If we went back to a hunting gathering society. And I know that very, very, very, very. How many people could that for 10,000 years?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How many people.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Well, it would sustain the people that live within that area. What has happened, it's a phantom compatible. It's phantom capacity right now because the growth of grains. The growth of grains and corn have caused overproduction, which now people are more dependent on it. So I'm saying If we taught people how to actually get food in the areas that they are in. And you do regenerative. Regenerative farming, which is actually very wanting to gather us. Well, we can do, we can do a hybrid.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So how.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Because we're at this point, you're not gonna have.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

We've got 8 billion people. We could. 17 million. And it's not.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

How do we get.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How do we get 8 billion people reproducing, having sex?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

But how.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm not gonna give you that lesson here.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Okay, Come on.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm being dead serious.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

So we have taken our food production, right. Dispersed it throughout the world. We have made people dependent on us as opposed to being dependent on the land that they live in and teaching them how to actually survive in their own areas.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The current animal agricultural industry is destroying the planet and destroying wildlife.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I think the current production of feeding

[Dr. Jack Symes]

them corn and diet agricultural industries join the planet.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I think factory farming is of course, and I disagree. I disagree.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Farming, not just factory farm. Current animal agricultural practices.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

No, I don't, I don't, I can't. Do you have, do you have.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, but if you want cattle raised on grass, you have to engage in deforestation. Or.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

What about buffalo? What if we bring back. Because a lot of these areas had buffalo.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It's not necessary. Why are you trying to.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Why would it be because I would eat buffalo? It's a natural animal that, that has survived in North America that we wiped out when the Europeans came over here. Right. We wiped it all out. We put agriculture into our country. Right. And now we are stuck in this. What has been created from 10,000 years ago.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So either go catch yourself a buffalo or get a plant based diet.

[Faux Day Sella]

No.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Well, maybe I will. I will, I will.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So you're going to catch a pause here.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I will.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You going to be vegan?

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

No.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Let me know when you do. I've got a strong bet against you.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Okay.

[John Regalato]

Please return to your seat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Thank you. Good to see you again, little jogger hat. This is my first time. Oh, sorry, apologies. I actually do have a, a general question for you. I do think you can make a lot of other points and I'm learning a lot there. What would be the. Which one, which ones do you think were valid? Well, I don't agree with factory farming.

[Pantheist Vegan]

So.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, that's where we have come. And the conscientious farming. Yeah. Slitting an animal's throat, debeaking it then. Yeah, we, we're on the same page there. Okay, so that's basically all farming. No, it's not all Farm. Well, 998 for a thousand chickens are factory farms and the other two are probably conscientiously farmed. So you got no chickens now. Okay, so the question, sorry, we agree on so much there. I think, I think if you're gonna go 99.9 of all animal consumption is bad and I don't think I should do it and I take the steps to do it, then that's, you know, as far as I'm concerned that's fine. I'm happy with that. Desert island scenarios where it's forced chick, you have to pick between you and the pig. That's never going to happen to you. So don't think you need to worry about it. So like if you agree with me that far, then we're basically on the same page. We're doing the trivial stuff now, you know what I mean?

[Nathan]

Okay.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So. Yeah. And this is what would be the economic impact of us not having an agricultural farm base? Yeah. So given the fact it's one of, if not the leading cause of climate change, the World bank think you're going to lose about 10 to 20 trillion dollars of net GDP by 2100. That's, you know, if we got 100 trillion in global GDP at the moment, taking 20% out of it's going to have huge effects for the whole world. What about the job market? Well, it's like 20 trillion out. It's a really bad. How would you replace that? I don't see how that in some economies this is a big export and a very, very big thing. So how would you replace. It's a big export in places where the people are starving especially. So if you switch to plant based agriculture for a start, you're not going to lose that 10 to 20 trillion. If we do take the necessary steps on climate change and the people who are engaging in animal agriculture at the moment, they switch to plant based agriculture. Are there any supply chain issues? I. Do you have any ideas about any. No, I'm, I'm, I don't think so. I'm asking switch the plants for the animals. Yeah. So there would be, you think there'd be no supply chain issues? There'd be no issues for switching from an ideal world.

[John Regalato]

Right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

So your ideal world where we're 100%. I think the cost of not doing it is just, it's monumental. When you look at 250 million excess deaths, we're talking about climate again. Some of the crazy ones like Robert Pierce think it goes to about a billion excess deaths like these Numbers are astronomical. Right. And there's no recovering from going to 2 or 3 degrees over the zoonotic deaths as well because of the crossover in diseases. And so the cost that it's going to have to the global economy because of the excess deaths, like the 70,000 extra people being displaced every year. Again, leading cause being animal agriculture and being the global emergency in terms of climate change. So, you know, you've got a lot of people moving around as well, and these things are awful for the economy.

[John Regalato]

Okay, pause here. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Thank you. Good to see you again.

[Chef Skeptic]

Good to see you again.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

All right, what you've been thinking about.

[Chef Skeptic]

So I've been thinking about specifically the humanity part. You know, being vegan, good for humanity. Humans like you and me, you won't like this. I'm a chef, so I cook with a lot of food all the time. I do cook vegan dishes, but a lot of animal products.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I use vegan dishes, human make. What's your best vegan dish?

[Chef Skeptic]

From what I remember, arugula endi bowl. I've got arugula, endive, figs. Actually. Never mind. There's goat cheese in that. Sorry, forget that. But from my experience and the research I've done, yeah, you need at least some animal product to survive because, like, a lot of the vegan diet is good. A lot of it's good. The fruits and veggies and everything.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But what makes you think that, though?

[Chef Skeptic]

What makes me think, though, vegan meat is good?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Because what makes you think that you need sweet meat to survive and thrive?

[Chef Skeptic]

Because I found out recently I've been doing a lot more of a health to get in better shape. And I found that the more protein I eat from meat, chicken, steak, it gets me more bulk. It helps me get the vitamins and nutrient minerals I need. And I know what you might say, hey, what about the B12 vitamin? That's good. I feel like you talk about B12 so much. You sound like my sister trying to convince me that her friend's so great. Like, oh, you got to try B12.

[John Regalato]

She's great.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

B12 is good.

[Chef Skeptic]

Well, let me.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

B12 is good. You should hang out with your sister's friend. That seems like a good idea.

[Nathan]

Yes.

[Chef Skeptic]

May I finish this first?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Of course.

[Chef Skeptic]

If I do.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Yes.

[Chef Skeptic]

Let's say I strictly directly to the B12 vitamins.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Oh, yeah.

[Chef Skeptic]

I get the minerals I need.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Chef Skeptic]

What are you gonna do about the calories? Because, you know, you get rid of the mineral, the Meats. And you cut out that calorie, but you also cut out a lot of the calories that you need to survive. Because if we become too malnutrition and neurodivergent, we will die. Because I recently discovered.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

But again, I gave. I gave the studies a bunch of times. The overall health outcomes are what matters. So when you've got. You're less likely to die on veganism because of health.

[Faux Day Sella]

Okay.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Than you are on eating meat.

[Chef Skeptic]

Have you heard?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'll just let you finish and I'll be brief. Okay. I'll make sure you've got the time. I'm aware that you haven't got much.

[Chef Skeptic]

Yes.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You're less likely to develop cancer. You're less likely to have the heart disease, less likely. You have diabetes, be obese. Yes. Can you replace those things in terms of. You want calories, you want a bulk whole cup. Yeah. Like in proteins. You mentioned seitan has 80 to 100 more protein per calorie than. Than a sirloin steak. That's significant. Tofu more than eggs, soy milk over whole milk and semi skin milk.

[Chef Skeptic]

All right, let me ask you. So you. Obviously we want to not die. Obviously. So have you heard of. I'm gonna mess up her name, I'm gonna butcher it. Johanna Somo Sonova. She is what she was a Russian vegan influencer that died at the age of 39.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And what did she die if you haven't got long?

[Chef Skeptic]

Her own family members say that she died of malnourishment and low energy. She did not have enough calories to sustain her body. And because of that she died before she was the age of 50.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

One person versus the 600,000.

[Chef Skeptic]

But that's a good example. Like you. If we try.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Anecdotes aren't the same as 601 person. Yeah. You can have anomalies. Right. I met somebody earlier who said they can't. Can't survive and not eat meat. Yeah. Right. So. So yeah, I'm not denying that. I think that the number is so slim.

[Chef Skeptic]

It's. But when very impossible to become full vegan. There's nothing. There is nothing really impossible to be. What are you wearing by chance? Are you wearing Doc Martens by chance?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Chef Skeptic]

Aren't those. Are those vegan?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yep.

[Chef Skeptic]

Are you sure about that?

[Faux Day Sella]

Yeah.

[Chef Skeptic]

They're made of rubber and rubber is made of.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Rubber's not made of animals.

[Chef Skeptic]

But there's a lot of vegan product. There's a lot of animal products and

[Dr. Jack Symes]

things that you don't eat. You think I'll turn it to 1 vegan vs 20 meters wearing leather shoes. You think, you think I'm.

[Chef Skeptic]

I mean, a lot of people don't know. A lot of stuff's in there.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Oh my days, man.

[Faux Day Sella]

She's a.

[John Regalato]

Cross my mind too.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Crossed my mind too.

[Faux Day Sella]

Thank you.

[Chef Skeptic]

He crossed his mind too. I rest my case. And my time is up.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Great.

[Chef Skeptic]

Demeaning.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Pick up some vegan ma. Thank you.

[John Regalato]

All right, that's the end of our claim. Portion from Dr. Jack snaps to you.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Great job.

[John Regalato]

I'm going to ask you to look around the circle and choose somebody who you want to bring back to the center for one more debate.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm going to pick my guy in the red shirt.

[John Regalato]

And what's your reasoning?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

We started having an interesting conversation earlier. We didn't really get into it. So. Yeah. Interested to hear more.

[Brian]

Hear what?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Your claim is.

[John Regalato]

All right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How's it going?

[Pantheist Vegan]

My surrounded claim is that going completely vegan is for the entire world at once is impossible.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I would not reject that claim. I think going all at once to veganism would be.

[Pantheist Vegan]

It's an absolute claim.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It wouldn't be possible. What's your reason for it?

[Pantheist Vegan]

I do want to have a conversation with you about something. When I make food for my vegetarian friends and cook dinner for them, it feels more expensive for me to go to Ralph's or Trader Joe's and buy, you know, a fancy dinner for them, fancy groceries for them compared to when I would make food for my meat eaters friends and I knew you have great stats to support it. And I'm often left with just making chana masala or something and I don't want to serve them vitamin B12 on a plate or you know, a protein shake on the side.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah.

[Pantheist Vegan]

And yeah, I just wanted to have a conversation about that.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, I feel it. I think one of the most common objections to the vegan is that, you know, it's some left woke person who has excess money, has the time to sit around thinking about moral philosophy and then makes the change to go vegan. Whereas other people don't have the privilege. They're trying to put food on the table. They don't have the time or even the resources to go out and buy vegan food and therefore it's a privileged position. I don't think that's true. I think we've got lots of intuitions. Give you an example. How many animals of each kind did Moses take on the army?

[Pantheist Vegan]

I'm not Christian, so I'm not.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

How many? How many on the ark.

[Chef Skeptic]

You should know.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I do not know.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You don't know how many animals are on the ark? Anyone know?

[Pantheist Vegan]

40.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Not two, John. Why two of each? No, I said Moses in the question, not Noah. Right, sorry.

[Dr. Pete]

So sorry.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Why would you. You didn't even need to fall for that. Gotcha. I don't know what you're doing over there. The point is that like our intuitions about things like that, immediately we think too. But if we slow down, we think about these things, we do the research, then we'll find that actually it's again, this University of Oxford study found it's 30% cheaper to go vegan and that the people in third world countries such as Ethiopia and Sudan, the people who are worst off across the world, they're more likely to be, to be eating meat. So I take that to be true when it comes to cooking for your friends. I've only been a vegetarian vegan since I was 21. 12 good years. And before it'd just be beef burgers and chips and a bit of veg on the side. Very common dish for a of lot of people. Right.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Not very healthy, but yeah.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And since I've been vegan, you know, I've started enjoying loads of different foods, Indian curries, Mexican spicy food and it sort of opens up a new world.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Yeah, yeah, I think I, I definitely agree with all your points about being, you know, going vegan and like a lot of people should aim to be vegan and which is which you think

[Dr. Jack Symes]

you could go vegan?

[Pantheist Vegan]

I, and this is as a man of like, my word, I know that it will be very difficult and I think I, I won't be completely able to go, go completely vegan because I do and I know there are moral obligations to it, but I do enjoy the taste of, you know, eating chicken

[Dr. Jack Symes]

or how would you consider just trying a plant based alternative instead? Because I saw that study earlier, 175 people. I think that's so interesting when you give people a blind taste test. Right.

[Pantheist Vegan]

And it tastes pretty similar. Yes. And that, that has happened to me as well. But to me it feels way easier to, you know, run to the grocery store down the street and get a thing of chicken breast and cook it and eat it for the night.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You feel the moral obligation. You want in theory to go vegan, but it's merely just your habit.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I do not want to go vegan, but I do want to take certain steps and I think there's a middle ground that you know, because we both have the same interest to the Moral argument.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Right, right. You said you feel like there's a moral obligation.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Right?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Obligation means you ought to do it, so you should do it.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Moral. Maybe that's a, that's a wrong term that I use, but I think it's, I do feel morally, you know, weird about. Because if I wouldn't kill an animal, why would I let someone else kill an element and eat an animal and eat it?

[Nathan]

Right?

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah, sure. But even, I mean, I wouldn't say it was much better if you went out and killed it yourself.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Right. But I think you and I both want somewhat similar to, you know, go and preserve that the animals are protected and well taken care of and not killed in industrial farming.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yeah. But being the killing in more general generally as well. Another, another myth is that you have inhumane slaughters.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

There's a thing as a humane.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Yes, but I think, and this is a thing that the country of India practices a lot and I don't see

[Dr. Jack Symes]

this could be a middle.

[Pantheist Vegan]

This Hinduism and the country of India practices Jainism. Right. We practice a thing of not eating meat on Tuesdays, which, you know, I, I think it's just a, it's just a step forward in the direction of,

[Dr. Jack Symes]

as you know, the Hindu tradition, the Buddhist tradition, the Sikh tradition, the Jain, traditionally vegetarian. Yeah. They should practice the principle of ahimsa non suffering, that reincarnation depends on it. And the same is true, I think, of the Jewish and the Muslim traditions as well. The Muslim tradition, In the Hadith 2365, you've got an example of a woman who is condemned to hell according to Muslim teachings. She's condemned to hell for putting a cat in a cage so small the cat can't move in and not feeding it properly. Yet the overwhelming amount of produce that Muslims are eating under the label of halal is factory farms. And so is the kosher meat as well. So it seems like the Abrahamic salvation is dependent on it. The, the Hindu, the Buddhists, and this is right back to the start of the conversation, all of their reincarnations are dependent on it too.

[Pantheist Vegan]

And I totally agree with this.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You have religious beliefs yourself.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I am very similar to you in terms of religion. I'm pantheistic, pantheist. But yes, I do believe that, you know, if you are making someone suffer, the karma is going to catch you back. And you know, it seems like you

[Dr. Jack Symes]

agree with the moral obligation though. And it doesn't seem like just because of, you do and just because of the habit, it doesn't seem to be good enough.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Obligation is the wrong word, but yes.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

And it seems, it seems to me like the reason is habit. Would you say that's fair?

[Pantheist Vegan]

I don't think it's habit because I did in fact turn vegetarian.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

What is the reason? It can't just be what you're cooking for people.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I think how easy it is for me to consume meat and how easy it is for me to go to a restaurant and there are two options for vegan and 10 options for me to enjoy a nice dinner.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You agree that ease doesn't override the moral ought though, right?

[Pantheist Vegan]

Say that again, please.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

The ease of it doesn't override the moral law. It's easy to have slaves. Right? But we shouldn't have slaves.

[Pantheist Vegan]

We shouldn't talk about that. I think it's a different. Different kinds of topic.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

No, it's an analogy. I can change the analogy if it makes you feel right. Yes. If you want to avoid that completely. It's easy to. I don't know, if you're very rich, it's easy to fly a private jet wherever you go. Right. But you think you have a moral obligation towards the environment more generally not to use private jets. All.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I don't understand the analogy.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It's just easy to eat meat. Doesn't justify the harm inflicted on me.

[Pantheist Vegan]

That is totally fair. It doesn't justify.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Yes, it's picking up a beyond meat burger rather than the beef burger. That's not really. It's not really ease. It takes a second.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I do think that there needs to be a middle ground where, you know, the meat eaters and the vegans or vegetarian choice people meet. Because I can't just snap a finger and say, okay, we are stopping all the farming, industrial farming, in terms of animals. So I think there needs to be like a step. It could be a step based process.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

You can take that step right now.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Yes. I do in fact intend after this thing to maybe not eat meat one day a week.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Why not more though?

[Pantheist Vegan]

Because that is still three meals a day that I'm not eating meat. And I do intend. When I do cook for other people, I do eat vegetables.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It's like saying I love getting in pub rules, but I only beat people up on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I don't disagree with that.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Then go the whole way. Just say you'll try it, you'll try going vegan.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I know I won't succeed in that because I have tried it.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm asking you to try. I said everyone should aim to be vegan. That was one of my claims.

[Pantheist Vegan]

As a person, I know myself, and I don't think I would be able to do it because I have tried it before, dude.

[John Regalato]

It's.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

It baffles me that people sort of go like, hey, like, it's so difficult to do. Like, it's so.

[Third Year Med Student]

It's not about.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Not just about being difficult, but I. I do depend on.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Just do it.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I do depend on my.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Just do it.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I could just do it. I do depend on my protein and my. And my vitamins and a lot of things.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Just say you'll try and you'll do it. You'll give it your best. Let's end on that. Just say that you'll. You'll give it your best. If you fail, you fail. But you should try.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I don't think.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Come on, give it a try. I'll buy you first vegan burger.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I will shake your hand, go for

[Dr. Jack Symes]

a vegan burger now.

[Pantheist Vegan]

But I'm not gonna go. I'm not gonna go vegan, But I don't want to leave you hanging.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Come on. You can't leave me hanging. You'll try to go vegan.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I just don't want to say that I'll turn vegan in front of you and then not do it, because I'm not a hypno.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I'm not asking you to turn vegan. I'm asking you to try.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I have tried in the past, and I am. I'm promising you that I will be trying to reduce.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

This is like a living conversation. Like, you accept all of the reasons and you think that you should do it.

[Pantheist Vegan]

Dr. Jack, for some reason. I promise you that I will try to limit the amount of meat I eat, but I can't promise you that I will be vegan. Right, like, right away.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Try for a week. Meet me a week. Meet me a week.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I don't think I would be able to do that.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Try me a week.

[Pantheist Vegan]

I don't think I would be able to do that. I apologize. I'm a weaker man than you, but I won't be able to do that.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Disappointed me, dude. Hey, it's lovely to speak to you, though. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[John Regalato]

All right.

[Dr. Jack Symes]

I think on the whole, like, everyone sort of like an animal lover anyway, just like vegans, take it a bit further. So everyone feels like the pull of it. There was probably three or four people who I thought, you know, might be tempted to at least reduce, if not go vegan.

[Nathan]

I'm gonna eat twice as many meat just on the off chance that that one guy at the end does go vegan one day a week, I'm gonna offset it.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

I'm a big proponent of doing whatever feels right for you. So if they decided to become vegan after this, I guess if they feel like like it's right for them, I think when you actually see somebody living a carnivore lifestyle, you might be more inclined to check it out because it's just more real. It's relatable. Numbers and stats aren't relatable. I don't think he was very relatable to most people. He's very numbers doctor. You know how many people live like that?

[John Regalato]

If you decided to become vegan after watching this video, let us know in the comments. If you are a vegan and you convert back to being a carnivore, also let us know. That would be kind of strange. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever

[Nathan]

you get your podcasts so that you

[John Regalato]

don't miss an episode. And if you want to watch the video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee

[Third Year Med Student]

on YouTube,

[Dr. Jack Symes]

Toogood and co Coffee creamers

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

are made with farm fresh cream, real

[Dr. Jack Symes]

milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers make

[Dr. Jack Symes]

every sip a good one. Two good coffee creamers Real goodness in every sip.

[Carnivore with Health Issues]

Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.

[Pantheist Vegan]

To realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us to face

[Dr. Jack Symes]

each threat head on.

[Pantheist Vegan]

We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this.