20 Pro-Palestine Protestors vs Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib

Summary

Podcast Summary: Surrounded – Episode 20: Pro-Palestine Protesters vs. Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib

Release Date: June 8, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 20 of Surrounded, hosted by Aidan from Jubilee Media, the spotlight is on a heated debate between Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, the head of Realign for Palestine and a peace activist, and 25 pro-Palestine protesters. This episode delves deep into the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, exploring historical grievances, the role of various factions, and the strategies for achieving peace and justice.

---

1. Defining Catastrophes: October 7th vs. 1948 Nakba

The episode opens with a contention over the severity and impact of recent events compared to historical ones.

• Ahmed Al Hatib (00:00): "I do not agree that we should find common ground with people who swear to genocide. That's unacceptable."

• Aidan (01:06): "From October 7, over 2.1 million Palestinian people have had to leave their homes due to the catastrophe that Hamas's actions unleashed by attacking Israeli communities... This has triggered one of the worst catastrophes in the Palestinian people's history." (02:06)

• Ahmed Al Hatib counters (02:52): "By that logic, the Zionists wouldn't have colonized Palestine, then none of this would have begun with the Nakba in 1948."

Key Points:

• Debate on whether the events of October 7th are more detrimental than the Nakba of 1948.
• Aidan emphasizes the scale and immediate impact of recent actions, suggesting a direct link between Hamas's attack and the ensuing catastrophe.
• Ahmed underscores the foundational role of Zionist actions in initiating the long-term conflict.

---

2. Root Causes: Arab Failures vs. Israeli Occupation

The conversation shifts to the underlying causes of the conflict.

• Aidan (04:44): "Why wasn't a Palestinian state established between 1948 and 1967? Why was Jordan allowed to annex the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip?"

• Ahmed Al Hatib (05:14): "Because the British were in control of the region. Palestinian revolt was in opposition to the British."

• Aidan (04:24): "You're blaming the Nakba on the Arab countries." (06:53)

Key Points:

• Aidan critiques the lack of Palestinian statehood and the role of Arab nations in shaping the region's borders.
• Ahmed attributes the control and subsequent developments to British colonialism.
• The discussion highlights differing perspectives on regional responsibilities and failures.

---

3. Role of Palestinian Leadership and Hamas

The legitimacy and effectiveness of Palestinian leadership are scrutinized.

• Aidan (07:14): "I'm blaming the failures of the Arabs and of the Palestinian leadership... Why wasn't a Palestinian state established?" (07:56)

• Ahmed Al Hatib (16:46): "Hamas serves as a response to the failures of the Palestinian Authority, which acts as an administrative state for the Israeli government and protects settlers."

• Aidan (19:05): "My uncle was one of the negotiators in the Oslo Accords. The PLO recognized Israel's state, renounced armed struggle, but we got nothing in return." (95:00)

Key Points:

• Aidan criticizes Palestinian leadership for corruption and ineffective negotiations, suggesting that these failures paved the way for Hamas's rise.
• Ahmed emphasizes Hamas's role as a byproduct of the occupation and the failures of the Palestinian Authority (PA).
• The debate touches upon historical agreements like the Oslo Accords and their perceived shortcomings.

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4. Armed vs. Nonviolent Resistance

A pivotal theme is the efficacy and morality of resistance strategies.

• Aidan (23:00): "Armed resistance will get the Palestinians nowhere. Hamas's terrorism is not a viable path to statehood."

• Summer (10:13): "October 7th took place during a time of rampant social media engagement, bringing global attention to Gaza's plight." (11:03)

• Ahmed Al Hatib (20:31): "Anything shall have consequences. October 7th is a choice, not an inevitability." (16:46)

Key Points:

• Aidan advocates for nonviolent strategies, condemning Hamas's tactics as counterproductive.
• Protesters argue that armed resistance is a natural response to prolonged occupation and oppression.
• The role of social media in highlighting Gaza's suffering is discussed, with Summer suggesting it brings necessary global attention.

---

5. Student Activism and Protests

The dynamics of campus activism and its impact on the movement are examined.

• Dana (45:06): "Student-led movements are powerful, teaching lessons like how apartheid was ended in South Africa. They are unfairly branded as anti-Semitic despite peaceful efforts." (48:02)

• Aidan (51:22): "Protests have made our cause misrepresented through slogans and divisive rhetoric, overshadowing peaceful intentions." (54:25)

• Dana (49:23): "Encampments at UCLA were met with police and vandalism from Zionist groups, hindering peaceful activism." (49:23)

Key Points:

• Pro-Palestinian student activists face harassment and misrepresentation, complicating their advocacy.
• Aidan expresses frustration over how protests devolve into vandalism, further stigmatizing the movement.
• Dana counters by highlighting instances where peaceful protests are obstructed and negatively labeled.

---

6. Humanization and Perception

Efforts to humanize Palestinians and challenge stereotypes are central to the debate.

• Aidan (35:47): "I connect with hostage families and ordinary Israelis to humanize the conflict, breaking down divisive stereotypes." (44:43)

• Dr. Ahmed Sobo (37:56): "Palestinians deserve recognition and rejection of the dehumanizing narratives perpetuated by some activists." (38:49)

• Aidan (58:18): "It's sad to see someone advocating for empathy towards Gazans being labeled as anti-Palestinian." (55:27)

Key Points:

• Aidan strives to portray Palestinians as multifaceted individuals, opposing blanket stereotypes.
• Protesters argue that attempts to humanize Palestinians are often dismissed or resisted by the broader movement.
• The tension between fostering empathy and maintaining a unified activist front is evident.

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7. The Two-State Solution Debate

The feasibility and conditions for a two-state solution are hotly contested.

• Summer (68:30): "The two-state solution is dead; dismantling apartheid is essential before coexistence can occur." (72:27)

• Aidan (68:38): "A free Palestine must coexist side by side with Israel, addressing the occupation and settlers' presence." (82:27)

• Yahya (89:33): "Israel’s continuous settlement expansions and military actions render the two-state solution unrealistic." (72:25)

Key Points:

• Summer asserts that a two-state solution is unattainable under current apartheid conditions.
• Aidan envisions cohabitation but acknowledges the complexities and necessary territorial resolutions.
• The expansion of Israeli settlements and ongoing military operations are seen as significant barriers.

---

8. Concluding Insights and Final Statements

The episode wraps up with reflections on the debate and potential paths forward.

• Aidan (105:22): "The solution entails rejecting violence, recognizing Hamas as unrepresentative, and advocating for systemic change in Israel." (105:22)

• Dr. Ahmed Sobo (88:57): "Ending Israeli occupation and granting Palestinians their rights are non-negotiable for peace." (87:30)

• Yahya (99:02): "Accountability from the Israeli government and removal of settlers are essential for any resolution." (94:59)

Key Points:

• Aidan promotes a strategy focusing on nonviolent resistance and systemic change.
• Protesters highlight the necessity of addressing historical injustices and holding occupying forces accountable.
• The debate underscores the deep divisions and challenging pathways toward peace and justice.

---

Notable Quotes

• Ahmed Al Hatib (00:00): "I do not agree that we should find common ground with people who swear to genocide. That's unacceptable."

• Aidan (02:06): "Since October 7, over 2.1 million Palestinian people have had to leave their homes due to the catastrophe that Hamas's actions unleashed..."

• Aidan (07:14): "I'm blaming the failures of the Arabs and of the Palestinian leadership... Why wasn't a Palestinian state established?"

• Dana (49:23): "We had a class called 'Representations in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict' at UCSD... still faced so much harassment."

• Dr. Ahmed Sobo (37:56): "We need to end the occupation. We need to have the refugees have the right to return. We need justice and peace for the Palestinians."

Conclusion

Episode 20 of Surrounded presents a robust and emotionally charged debate that captures the multifaceted nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Through the exchange between Ahmed Al Hatib and the pro-Palestine protesters, listeners gain insights into the historical grievances, current challenges, and divergent strategies within the movement. The episode underscores the urgent need for nuanced discussions, accountability, and empathetic approaches to foster lasting peace and justice in the region.

Transcript

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

I do not agree that we should find common ground with people who swear to genocide. That's unacceptable.

[Aidan]

Peace with your enemies, not with your friends.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

No, we do not make peace with people who are murdering children.

[Aidan]

From Jubilee Media, this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. Today's guest is Ahmed Al Hatib.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

He's the head of Realign for Palestine.

[Aidan]

And a peace activist and he will.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Be debating 25 pro Palestine protesters. Ahmed will debate them one on one until they are voted out by their.

[William]

Peers and replaced by someone new.

[Aidan]

Let's Get into it.

[Dana]

This episode is.

[Aidan]

Brought to you by Amazon Prime.

[Dana]

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[Aidan]

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[Dana]

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[Aidan]

Go to your happy price. Priceline first claim is that October 7th was an abhorrent disaster that unleashed the worst catastrophe in the Palestinian people's history.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

So, worst catastrophe? I think that you're using specific words for specific reasons. The Nakba catastrophe, Right? I want to offer my condolences. I believe that 33 members of your family were exterminated by the Zionist entity. So my question is, how is this worse than what initiated everything which was a Nakma 1948?

[Aidan]

My grandparents were pushed out in 1948 where 700,000 Palestinians were unfortunately forced to leave their homes and in some cases had no choice but to leave their homes. Since October 7, over 2.1 million Palestinian people have have had to leave their homes due to the catastrophe that Hamas's actions unleashed by attacking Israeli communities on October 7th. Quantitatively and qualitatively, Hamas's actions have triggered one of the worst catastrophes in the Palestinian people's history, whereby 50,000 Palestinians would still be alive had Hamas simply kept its soldiers at home on October 7th.

[Yahya]

Right.

[Aidan]

So family members of my own.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

So by that logic is Zionists wouldn't have colonized Palestine, then none of this would have began to begin with.

[Yahya]

Right.

[Aidan]

As a Palestinian who grew up in the Gaza Strip, what I can tell you is that who put you there? This, The Gaza Strip had immense potential to be the pride and joy of the Palestinian people. To prove that. That we are absolutely capable of having a functional state of our own that can rebuild our society, rebuild our heritage, reclaim our presence on the land, the.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Entirety of the land. Or just because I believe your parents were in a refugee camp, right? They were forced into that.

[Aidan]

There are nuances and complexities in history.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Well, who put them there?

[Aidan]

Nuances and complexities, but that's a very objective thing. Who put them there? You, unfortunately, are not willing to listen to some of the nuances and the complexities. Do you know, for example? Well, just answer that, like 48. In 1948, the Arab armies that were coming in to supposedly save the Palestinian people asked Palestinians from whom asked. Asked Palestinians to leave. Asked Palestinians to leave, disarmed Palestinians and said, oh, this is a matter of two to three days.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

So we agree that they should have been armed.

[Aidan]

That's not my point. My point is you said they disarmed.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Him as if it's a negative thing.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Right.

[Aidan]

The history of the Nakba itself is so singularly focused on what happened from the point of view of Zionism, the colonizers. Right. Whereas I actually want to understand what happened with the Arab failures that have put us.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

The failures to stop Zionism. Right.

[Aidan]

Why wasn't a colonizing Palestine? Right. Why wasn't a Palestinian state established between 1948 and 1967?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Because the British were in control of the region. And we know for a fact that Palestinian revolt was in opposition to the British.

[Aidan]

Right?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

So when people talk about, oh, you know, we've been opposing colonization from. For 75 years since the Nakba, add another 30 for British colonization of the region. Is that incorrect?

[Aidan]

Between 1948 and 1967, is it incorrect.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

That the British, who was in charge.

[Aidan]

Between 1948 and Gaza, is that incorrect?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

You haven't answered a single one of my questions. I asked, who put your parents in Gaza? And you were unwilling to answer that. Can you at least answer me that? Who put your parents in Gaza between.

[Aidan]

1948, 67 and 1967?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

You've dodged every one of my questions.

[Aidan]

It's not dodging so much.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

So just. It's a very simple question. Who put your parents in a refugee.

[Aidan]

Camp on my mom's side. The Arab invading armies asked the invading armies to liberate the Palestinian people.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Why were they invading?

[Aidan]

To supposedly stop the Zionist invading.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

From doing what?

[Aidan]

From taking over the Palestinian people's lands in the areas that later on became Israel.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Okay. And you're okay with that?

[Aidan]

I'm not okay with that.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Okay, so we should liberate that land.

[Aidan]

Eighty years later, Israel is a recognized state that exists, that is recognized by the entirety of the international community. And this illusion that armed resistance is going to get rid of 7 million Jewish Israelis. 7 million.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

We're talking getting rid of the Zionist occupation, the Zionist entity itself. Right, the colonial forces.

[Aidan]

So do you believe that there should be a space for the Jewish people?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

There always have been. What we're opposition to is or opposing, I should say is the Zionist entity itself. Why do Europeans have the right to colonize and impose a government on Palestinians? Why?

[Aidan]

Well, I would say that we should ask that to the King of Jordan.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

I'm asking.

[Aidan]

He's not here, unfortunately, at the time. We should ask the Arab armies that came to liberate the Palestinian people why they didn't end up the Zionist and ended up facilitating part of the Nakba by asking folks, my mom.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

So you're blaming the Nakba on the Arab countries?

[Aidan]

I'm blaming the failures of the Arabs and of the Palestinian leadership at the time in acting in the best interest of the Palestinian people. And then looking at 1948 to 1967, why wasn't a Palestinian state established? Why wasn't it until 1964 at the Arab League summit that the decision was made to create the Palestinian Liberation Organization and to push for Palestinian statehood? Why was Jordan allowed to annex the west bank and Egypt annexed the Gaza Strip?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

To be very clear, I'm against that. But that's a regional conflict, right? That's a regional. What I'm opposed to is Europeans thinking they could colonize Palestine.

[Aidan]

Do you know that happens Israelis.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Oh, I'm not talking about. No, I'm talking about the originators of the Zionist project. Can we agree that they were Europeans?

[Aidan]

Not entirely. No.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

The majority.

[Aidan]

Not entirely majority, secular. There were certainly some element of the Zionist movement that certainly emerged out of Europe. But I'm saying right now, I am thinking about the future. I am thinking about Gaza. What happened in Gaza on October 7 was not because of Zionism.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

What happened in Gaza on October 7?

[Aidan]

What happened with the attack that Hamas launched as a terrorist organization? You have taken an entirely different approach to thinking about October 7th. You have eaten up the Hamas propaganda that says October 7th happened because of Zionism.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

And you're eating up the Zionist propaganda, right? Because I don't ever hear you bringing up. And I've seen many of your interviews. I don't see you ever bringing up the iof. If you want to call them the idf, the Hasanga, where they came from, right? They started as a terrorist militia, did they not? Were they not killed in British soldiers? How is that irrelevant? That's where they came from. And they continue to impose that upon the Palestinian population. I asked you, why is it that in the west bank there's nobody stopping all the colonization?

[Aidan]

Are you Palestinian?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

I'm Mexican.

[Aidan]

Have you lived in the Gaza Strip?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

No. When you were run out, right? When you aligned yourself with what was that organization you're involved with? Because I know you work for the Atlantic Council right now, right?

[Aidan]

Do you know anything about my history?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Yes, I do.

[Aidan]

So tell me, what is history?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Your parents were forced into Gaza, were they not? They grew up in a refugee camp, were they not?

[Aidan]

Do you know anything about Hamas and how it treats Palestinians in the Gaza Strip? Do you know anything not worse than.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Israelis and Zionists treat them?

[Aidan]

Do you know that in the past two days, Hamas executed dozens of Palestinians who were hungry, who were desperate, as Hamas was looting dozens of Palestinians.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Meanwhile, the Zionist entity exterminated 33 of your family members.

[Dana]

You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Summer]

So I want to shift the conversation.

[Aidan]

A little bit, please.

[Summer]

You said that October 7 was one of the most detrimental things to Palestinians, correct? I would beg to differ because I think the fact that. Oh, also, let's not pretend like October 7th was an isolated incident. It didn't come out of nowhere. It came after years and years and years of occupation, oppression, and siege. Okay, so on October 7th, when the resistance took place, because it wasn't an isolated incident, it also happened to take place during a time where social media was rampant. So for the first time in a really long time, Palestine was in every conversation with most everybody that, you know could talk about Palestine in one way or another. They knew about what was going on. And for the first time, we are hearing people recognize how detrimental the IDF has been and the occupation has been in history. And I think that the fact that it took place during a time where social media was at its height. We're seeing people on the ground. We're seeing people take videos of the rubble of their homes. We're seeing. We're seeing people have to makeshift water filters. So that they can have drinkable water. We are seeing children get shot for collecting rainwater. We are seeing children dying and starving and emaciated infants. And for the first time, it's not just on the news, it's on your phone. We're watching a genocide take place on our phones, and most everybody is talking about it. So how can you say that October 7th was so detrimental to the Palestinians when. When it is the first time that it has been brought to heightened media attention?

[Aidan]

Well, I share your horror and what's happening in Gaza. I mean, it is an unimaginable level of death and destruction and pain and suffering and hunger. And in some cases, I mean, people like being burned in their tents and all the really horrible level atrocities that I have called out and I have said that the Israeli government and military have committed war crimes. I've actually, like, overtly said that.

[Summer]

I mean, it doesn't take much to recognize that.

[Aidan]

But my point is, I don't want my people and my family and my community and my beautiful Gaza that has meant so much to the Palestinian people there and to what remains of my family to merely become a social media phenomenon where it is on display for people to look at and say, wow, look at. This is so horrible.

[Summer]

That's the only way. That's the only way that they can get people to recognize just how bad it really is, because there is no mainstream media covering what has been going on for 80 years. It's all skewed media.

[Aidan]

So may I just clarify? Because if so, that sounds really awful, what I just heard you say. You. You're saying that you want to see images of dead Palestinians, you want to see.

[Summer]

No one wants to see those images. But if that's what it takes to get people to recognize what's actually going on instead of another Middle Eastern war, then that's what it takes. It's tragic that that's what it took.

[Aidan]

Do you recognize that Hamas, in official communiques and publicly and overtly, has made it clear that part of their strategy relies on causing maximum death and destruction in Gaza, so that the ensuing.

[Summer]

In response to Netanyahu blatantly saying that his goal is ethnic cleansing.

[Aidan]

May I just finish this point, please? That Hamas wants to generate maximum death and destruction on the ground in Gaza in hopes that the ensuing imagery can actually rile up the international community, rile up folks in the Western diaspora, on college campuses, so that then this could delegitimize Israel, so that this could stop the war. I'm talking about facts on the Ground. As somebody who has so much, so much attachment to the reality of Gaza on a daily basis, my brother is there right now running one of the biggest medical NGOs. He has 70 direct reports that are doing work that's saving lives. I hear from folks, from the protesters.

[Summer]

There wouldn't be lives to save if there was no occupation. How about your brother would not have to run an NGO if the occupation never existed and they weren't constantly bombing and killing children.

[Aidan]

My brother was there.

[Dana]

Sorry, you've been voted out by the majority. Return to your.

[Aidan]

Thank you very much, Dana.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

So I think one of the issues with your framing in that October 7th is leading to what we're seeing, the genocide today in Gaza is the explanation that what is happening is inevitable. Genocides are not inevitable. This is the first armed conflict since the Rwandan genocide in which the majority of deaths overall are women and children. The October of Gaza had some of the worst bombing campaign that we've seen since since the Korean War or World War II. This type of level of destruction is not inevitable. This shows the explicit aims of the Israeli War Cabinet, which they have explicitly endorsed as being a part of, for example, Trump's proposed plan of ethnically cleansing the Gaza Strip. The goal, for example, right now, with the complete blockage of food and aid, is to make Gaza uninhabitable. We cannot say that this is an inevitable consequence of armed resistance, which is armed resistance is an inevitable consequence of occupation. What makes Hamas's argument for armed resistance is the fact that in the west bank, where the PA operates as basically an administrative state for the Israeli government and actually goes in so far as to protect settlers, what that actually does is it is it functions as to make the case for Hamas to have instances of armed resistance for the last two. You brought up why we haven't had like a Palestinian state for the last two decades, Israel hasn't even been interested in that. And that's even to say that they were, for example, interested in within the Oslo period, which I don't think was actually the case.

[Aidan]

So the fact on the ground remains that 50,000 Palestinians would still be alive had Hamas made a different choice, but had they simply kept their fighters at home on October 7th. I recognize the imbalance of power dynamics between Palestinians and Israelis, but with clearly the Israelis. If I may finish this point, within said imbalance there exists plenty of room for Palestinian agency and accountability and responsibility, such that October 7th was a choice. It was not an inevitability.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

But you think the 50,000 Palestinians that are dying. You're saying that that's an inevitability, though. And I'm saying that no genocide is inevitable. But that's exactly the framing of the point that you just brought up, is you said that October 7th is what's causing what's happening right now in Gaza. What's causing what's happening right now in Gaza is the Israeli state.

[Aidan]

Hamas served our people, the defenseless Palestinian people, on a silver platter to the most far right government in Israel's history. What did you expect would happen?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Actually, Israel served that they did everything they could to undermine Fatah and support groups like Hamas.

[Aidan]

Well, I'm glad you brought that point up because what happens in Gaza doesn't stay in Gaza. The fact that Hamas was propped up by the Netanyahu government and by the Netanyahu regime should tell you everything you need to understand to delegitimize this group, to understand that they were used to undermine the Palestinian Authority in the west bank, which I don't subscribe to, the Palestinian authorities the entirety of their approaches. But the Palestinian Authority was the closest thing we had to a political framework that in the 90s when I lived in Gaza and I experienced the tail end of the Oslo peace process, a time of immense hope and optimism for the. We went from having to me, peace and coexistence with Israel and pragmatism meant that we shed the Egyptian travel document and we got a Palestinian passport. It meant that we had an airport in the Gaza Strip. We flew in my family and I, in 1999 and in 2000 on the Palestinian airlines.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Sure.

[Aidan]

That was undermined by failures on the Palestinian leadership side and by Hamas rise to undermine the Palestinian nonviolent approach.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

I'll be the first to say. I think Palestinians have every right to criticize their own leadership. I think that it's always good.

[Dana]

Sorry, you've been voted out. Please return.

[Aidan]

Thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Okay, so I think you use language very loosely. We said genocide and we said colonization and you said taking over. You say so many things to diminish the words and the language you use. Your personal experience, which is horrible in your terms, is abhorrent. You should never have to deal with that. But to place the onus on Hamas is so despicable because the reason that Hamas is there, you just said was propped up by Israel. Why were they propped up? Because they wanted to take out the plo. Why did they want to take out the plo? Because they were actually going to create some dissonance with Israel. Another thing you have failed to mention is US intervention on leading Israel. The veto power of the P5, when you said Palestine has not been legitimized, why is that? How many times has it been brought up to the supposed council right and been voted out by who? Who opposes it? 98% of the time it's the United States with the P5 veto power because they want to have a party like the Saudis and the Israelis in order to take control of the Swana region. And another thing, you said you wanted to utilize and place blame and shift blame to the Arab people during all these catastrophes. Yes, it's after the Mallet system, in. After the government that were getting propped from World War II, people were just scrambling, trying to figure out how to live. And when you had European colonization shifting lines to create boundaries in order to say, this is now Palestine, this is now this, this is now that, of course people are going to be groveling trying to figure out how to do it. And you use Jordan. What did, what did Israel do to Jordan and to Palestine? In three days, mind you, three days, they bombed the crap out of them and took their land, took the Golan Heights, took this and that. This is not a one time occurrence. And this is happening. It's going to continue happening. And armed resistance is necessary because Fanon said that decolonized can only liberate themselves through armed resistance. And you want to delegitimize Hamas, but that makes no sense to me. We use the term terrorist. Terrorists now makes it so Hamas can't even plead for help. Because if you're labeled a terrorist, you can't go to the un you can't go to this and that. And let me tell you one thing. One thing I'll say is one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

[Dana]

All right, so time is up. I'm gonna ask you to return to your seat.

[Aidan]

Thank you.

[Dana]

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[Aidan]

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[Ahmed Al Hatib]

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[Ahmed Al Hatib]

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[Ahmed Al Hatib]

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Try greenlight Risk free [e-mail] Spotify My next claim is that armed resistance will get the Palestinians nowhere. Hamas's terrorism is not a viable path to statehood.

[William]

So I want to do two things before we start. The first is I'll answer probably some of the questions you'll ask me. I'm not Palestinian. I'm also not infallible. So I hope I get fact checked in this because my biggest objective is to try to get to objective truth. And what I do know objectively is that the apartheid and the oppression that's been happening for the past 75 years is not something that's sustainable within the region of Gaza. So I think the claim is precisely worded in a way to make it seem like anyone that sits here is saying, I support every single action that's done by Hamas. And I want to make clear that my big reason and sitting in contention to your claim is to say that the framing is very intentional and the moral outrage that's put on colonized resistance is doing the bidding of Israel and the oppression structure. So it's important to me to recognize what are the real causes of these types of violence. It's a state that does not allow aid. It does. It controls the food and water. It has restrictive access to people's freedom of movement. It's controlling the ports. And the list could go on and on about why people feel like they have no other means in order to fight back. You said in the claim armed resistance is not an effective strategy. What are we seeing with the nonviolent actions? The BDS movement has been condemned internationally by many different states. This is, this is not something that's going to lead to the liberation of Palestinian people. We need to challenge the power structure of the United States and its support of a regime like Israel. That's the only way to stop violence that continues to occur within both regions.

[Aidan]

Well, I really do appreciate your concern for the Palestinian people. And we need non Palestinian allies to be a part of the broader effort. And we need a multi pronged strategy. My thing with armed resistance is that as the weaker party in a conflict like what we're seeing in Israel and Palestine, particularly in the Gaza Strip, where you have a vulnerable population that has been under. On the one hand, I sense isolation for almost two decades, and on the other hand, the control of a nefarious terrorist organization that has Islamized the society. If I may finish, Please. That has pushed the Palestinian people to the brink of catastrophe. I think there is an extra onus. I am a believer that you have a responsibility. You being Hamas and Palestinian leadership, have a responsibility to be a good custodian of your people. You do not poke a government that has Ben GVIR and Smotrich in it and carry out the single worst attack on the Jewish people since the Holocaust and expect things not to go horribly for you. So that's number one. Number two is the monopolizing of the word resistance. And I added armed resistance, because guess what? Of course, I believe in different forms of resistance. Unfortunately, in today's context, the word resistance has become monopolized to almost exclusively mean Hamas and violence and terrorism.

[William]

I have to interject here, and I appreciate everything that you've said, but if you've seen in demonstrations in Gaza, there have been multiple protests saying that Hamas is not effective leadership. So to say that Hamas is representative of the Palestinians approval is not something that you can say wholeheartedly. Again, I think you focusing on Hamas is doing the bidding of Israel. We need to talk about how we're going to end the occupation. That needs to be done by multiple countries coming together in support of a people that's been oppressed for almost a century.

[Aidan]

Now, that this is a brilliant point that you just brought. That is precisely what I am desperately.

[William]

But you're trying to do, and you're coming here, is focusing on Hamas because October 7th is not an isolated event. You don't get October 7th without October 1948, without October 1967. And every day that's happened since then, under 75 days of occupation suppression and siege, the bombings, the indiscriminate killings of civilians is not something that's sustainable. And. And if you look proportionally at how many people died on October 7, which I don't know how many people would justify civilian death. But if you look at those numbers versus what has been happening in Gaza since the occupation started, this is not a proportionate conflict. And I don't even like using the term conflict, because conflict assumes that there's two equal equivocal positions. This is a colony, it's a colonization. And that's not something that's justified. Why are we critiquing the actions of the colonized people instead of those that are doing the colonizing in the first place?

[Aidan]

I respectfully disagree with the idea that this didn't. I mean, this had a starting point, a tactical starting point on October 7, whereby a specific act that was a choice triggered where we're at right now. And if I may say what I'm.

[William]

It sounds like you're saying the best strategy of the Palestinian people is to lay back and just let Israel do what they want. You can't fight back. You can't try to have any sort of action against your oppressors. Just take it, take the genocide until they feel like they can get rid of it.

[Aidan]

Thank you for coming through. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Thank you, brother.

[Yahya]

So first off, my condolences to all your family members. Who have you lost? I'm also from Gaza. I'm from the Asfur family. We're from Yafa as well. And I used to live in Gaza as well. I left in 2001 during the second intifada, which I believe you were there and nearly lost your life by an Israeli airstrike. Your two friends were killed in front of you, I believe, and this left you partially deaf. Am I correct? Hamas wasn't in charge yet at that time, were they?

[Aidan]

They were rising, but no, they were not in charge, but they were very much so rising.

[Yahya]

But they. So during the Sentifada, which, by the way, I think Fatah and Palestinian Preventive Security kind of initiated this or added to it, but during this time, the plo, the pa, Fatah was in charge of Gaza. And Israel is the one who killed your family. Israel is the one who killed your friends. Right? Israel is one who left you with ptsd. And I commend you for, you know, being public about that and sharing that information. But when I was there, living in Gaza, I remember Mohamed Al Dara. When he was killed, I was. I was three years old. I vividly remember that. This is one of my earliest memories. All I can remember, all I can think of was, why was this little boy killed in his father's lap? Right? So. And again, who killed him? Israel. Israel is the reason why the Palestinians are suffering and have been suffering for over 77 years. So I wanted to talk about armed resistance, because that was a claim. Armed resistance is a right under international law. We need to look at the reason why there's armed resistance in the first place. Right? So context matters. So Israel being the occupier, having a military occupation of Gaza, the West Bank, Israel increasing its settlements, Israel being an apartheid state, Israel making our lives hell, not looking at us as humans. This is the root cause of the issue. And armed resistance is a byproduct of all this garbage. Hamas formed in 1987 during the first intifada, right? So they formed as an armed resistance group. In 1987, there would be no need for resistance if there wasn't a military occupation. So you have anything to add?

[Aidan]

No. And first of all, delighted to finally speak to a fellow Gazan like that, even when we disagree. That to me is far more important than, with all due respect to some other allies that suck up the oxygen out of the room, that feel the need to speak over Palestinians, that act in a very disrespectful manner. I really appreciate you being here. And so do you know that in the 80s, when Hamas was born out of Mujamma al Islami, the Islamic complex, their budget, what came out of the military governor, that the Israeli military system that ran the military occupation, their budget was literally allocated to them by the military governor. Their first victims for this resistance group in the 1980s were women in Shara, the Omar al Mukhtar street, to wear the hijab to cover themselves up and suspected traitors and collaborators with the Israeli army and the Israeli police. In the 1980s, before they laid a finger on an Israeli soldier or an Israeli settler in Gaza, Palestinians were the first victim of Hamas, which is so classic of the Muslim Brotherhood offshoot, so classic of the ISIS and Al Qaeda style thinking of Sayyid Qutb and all of those people. But let's put that aside. 2005, if you want to support armed resistance. I'm playing a hypothetical here. Was there not an opportunity to say, okay, the Israeli military and the settlers are directly out. We can talk. It's a, they repositioned the troops around Gaza. We can talk about all that. This was a unique opportunity to say, okay, armed resistance in Gaza is done. We are now in the nation building phase. We are now in the phase to turn Gaza into the pride and joy of the Palestinian people. To turn Gaza into a role model for what an occupation, free west bank would look like. What did we get instead? Instead, we enabled the far right element in his elements in Israel to say, oh my God, no. And I'm not saying I agree with this, but say, oh my God, we can't end the occupation in the west bank because they'll turn it just like in Gaza. So that's, that's that. And then finally I will say that when you are the weaker party, the onus is on you to protect your people. A resistance that fails, a resistance that is there to not protect its people. Gaza is the first place in history where the resistance.

[Yahya]

If I can add one more thing, sorry, real quick, please. So this 2005, when Israel withdrew from Gaza, they Didn't end the occupation of Gaza. They switched the style of occupation. So Israel still controls the borders, the airspace, the land, what's coming in, what's going out. It made Gaza a living hell in 2012. The UN said Gaza will be unlivable by 2020. You know, it's 2025 now and clearly, like, they destroyed all aspects of life, all aspects of infrastructure, hospitals, schools. I've lost over hundreds of family members as young as three months old. Hanan ashore, she was three months old and she was killed. She was not part of Hamas, clearly. And we lost people like in their 80s, you know, so I've lost my grandfather. He was. He also died as a result of the siege on Gaza. And by the way, right now there's over a two month blockade of no food, no humanitarian aid, no water coming into Gaza by Israel. And the world is just watching this. This is insane. The ICC has issued arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallants because of war crimes against the people of Gaza.

[Aidan]

Do you believe that Hamas bears any responsibility in our people's suffering?

[Yahya]

This is a byproduct of Israeli occupation. By the way, before October 7. From 2007 till October 7, 2023, over 6700 Palestinians were killed by Israel because of the four major assaults that Israel launched on Gaza. And by the way, not to mention the siege on Gaza as well. So I wasn't able to see my grandfather. Last time I saw him, I was 4 years old and he died in 2024. I wasn't able to see him because of the siege. He couldn't leave and I couldn't go visit Gaza. So this is impacting all aspects of life. You expect people to like, worship their occupiers? You know, no one's going to go kiss their ass if they've been killing us, displacing us and starving us and killing our children, making our children orphans, limb, you know, without limbs like this is. You got to be realistic here.

[Aidan]

No one said anything about loving what Israel is doing. All I'm saying is that I think a variety of different actions and strategic choices by Hamas and others in Gaza could have led to radically different choices.

[Yahya]

But how do we make peace with people who don't even see us as humans? Why do we even talk to people who don't give a. They don't care about me, they don't care about you. They look at us as goyim and all this bullshit. They look at us as like gentiles.

[Aidan]

I would respectfully disagree in that I have made contacts. I mean, you cannot paint the entirety of the Israeli society and community with a singular brush, just like we can't paint all Palestinians. They unfortunately have not talked to anyone from Gaza. And I have made a point of connecting with hostage families, with survivors of October 7th.

[Yahya]

Why talk with a boot on your neck? You know what I'm saying?

[Aidan]

It's not a boot. It's an equalized relationship.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Pause.

[Yahya]

You've been voted out.

[Aidan]

Thank you, brother. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

My name is Dr. Ahmed Sobo. I'm from Bethlehem, Palestine. Before I start, I'd like to ask you to look around the circle around you. People from different backgrounds, ethnicities, cultures. They're not sucking the air out of the Palestinians. They're a source of oxygen to every single person in Gaza when they speak out on school campuses, when they speak out in their workplaces, when they object the genocide that the government that you're trying to give excuses and legitimacy to kill our own people. They are the source of hope for the kids of Gaza. I don't know if you've seen the videos from the schools, from the kids of Gaza, thanking every single school and campus for their support and strong stance against the genocide. So that's number one. Number two, you are telling us that you have a special or a different kind of resistance that you'd like our people to take. Would you please share and enlighten us with that form of resistance? Especially that. I doubt that you participated in bds. I doubt that you participated in any peaceful resistance against the brutal occupation that you're trying to legitimize. And you're trying to give them excuses for killing 100,000 Palestinians in Gaza. For a moment. You just mentioned right now that it was the Israeli military government that supported Hamas, yet you're not saying anything negative about that government. Imagine for a moment it was the Saudi government that gave money to Hamas. I bet you you'll be the most vocal critic of that government. Yet you did not say anything about the Israeli government and their brutality in killing our own people, your own family members. So my question to you, what would you suggest to my family in the west bank where there's no Hamas, and yet they're still being killed, persecuted, living in economical prison, that they cannot step out from their cities more than two miles away from their homes? What would you suggest for them to do against this brutality?

[Aidan]

Well, it's unfortunate you assume that I've never been a part of any effort to make a.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Tell me what it is.

[Aidan]

I'm Going to. Because I have. In fact, I believe it or not, I was actually in the San Francisco Bay area where I lived for many years once I left Gaza. I was part of Students for Justice in Palestine. I was part of the local Jewish Voice for Peace effort. I was part of bds. I went to the Sebel Conference every year that was talking about BDS efforts. I gave my money to these organizations. I was a very vehement repented.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

It was a mistake.

[Aidan]

Are you going to let me speak or are you going to be patronizing?

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

No, I'm so sorry. I apologize. That was not my point. My point is that you memorize certain words and certain points and you're trying to propaganda. My question to you is, what do you think right now? What do you suggest to my people in Bethlehem to do to resist the brutality of Israeli government?

[Aidan]

Sure, I'm going to get there. But I would implore you to please afford me the respect because the time.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

We don't want to have sermons and rhetoric. Just tell me straightforward. What do you suggest they should do?

[Aidan]

What I would suggest they should do is to persevere on the land that they have called home for decades and generations. And to not let armed resistance and.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Be shooting ducks, sitting ducks, being shot.

[Aidan]

By the streets, and to not let Hamas. Because unfortunately, if you engage in armed resistance, that is simply going to give the settlers and the army, the Israeli army, the excuse.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Oh, no, I agree with you. I have no problem with that. My question is, when you see a rabid dog in front of you, you're not gonna say, hey, little puppy, give me a kiss.

[Aidan]

That's not right.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

You're gonna defend yourself. And the truth is, and the history showed us that when you put so much oppression and persecution on top of a group of people, eventually they're gonna explode. And that's what's happening. We're not saying that. No, I agree with you, but.

[Aidan]

So how about we separate? As a first step, we separate the just and urgent aspirations of the Palestinian people from the corrupted armed resistance narrative of Hamas, number one. Number two, we actually come up with a cohesive national strategy for a nonviolent resistance. We don't need the images of dead. My family are not to be consumed.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

It was not a propaganda.

[Aidan]

My family are not.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

If someone is using propaganda is the Israelis saying the hostages names and their pictures and look. And they're trying to gain that sympathy from Americans.

[Aidan]

I share images on my socials of the horrendous settler behavior that is abhorrent, that is criminal. Thank you that is criminal. You asked about the allies and the folks. At the end of the day, what have the encampments achieved beyond.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Oh my goodness, the fact that we have 20 people here from different factions of lives, that's an achievement.

[Aidan]

Talk about results.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

The fact that there's so much money are poured into trying to refute this movement and this wave of young brave people and students to defend the Palestinians, it's freaking them out. They're panicking the Knesset, they're panicking the Israeli government because of what's happening, because of these young people. So I take my hat off to each one of them and I tell them, thank you for standing up for my rights and my people's rights.

[Aidan]

The divisive rhetoric that has emerged from a lot of the pro Palestine activism has pushed away vital allies on the Israeli and the Jewish side of.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

I'd rather gain the billions of people around the world and. And give up those few thousands or few hundreds of Israelis. Salaam ach shab and Peace now and all that. These are only a small fringe minority. Even when you talk, listen, I deal with the interfaith community all the time. And when I sit with the Jewish community here in America and they tell me, you know what? Jewish voices for feast. There are just a fringe in the community, in this Jewish community, they're just a small minority and it's smaller even inside Israel. With all due respect to the people that you met, and I thank them for that, but if it's a trade, I would trade the billions of people around the world, the thousands of people on campuses in the US for the few hundreds inside Israel who are speaking up for the Palestinians.

[Aidan]

This might be a head shocker to you. I talk to the mainstream Zionist community and plant seeds of humanization, mutual empathy and humanization. There's no Palestinian freedom without winning over mainstream support within Israel like our community did in the 1990s.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

I would wish for you. You know what? I would wish for you to be hopefully the Gandhi of the Palestinians. You have the haircut.

[Aidan]

I have an Afro, by the way. I choose this haircut, but I have an Afro.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

But I promise you, if your path would be able to free the Palestinian people, I'll be the first one to support it. But we've seen it over and over in history when people are brutally being killed and massacred and sieged like what's happening to the Palestinians. We're not planning for firearm resistance. We're not doing that. It's just a natural outcome of what the Israelis been doing. My Request to you is as much as you are harsh on the Palestinians, try to be a little bit harsh on the Israelis. Try to stand up and speak up for your own people and try to say that what Israelis are doing, they could have stopped the genocide after October 7th and they should have said, you know what, we are not going to do what Hamas did and we're going to try to solve the problem in a better way. But to go out of their way and kill hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, not 50,000, there's so many under the rebels still, they cannot find their bodies. Just they should be the civilized people. They should say, you know, we're not going to go to that level and we're not going to do that again. So I hope your message and your peaceful path will work because I am for it as well. But I cannot stop people who are being shot and killed every day for the past 16 years in Gaza to tell them, you know what, just sit down and wait for your turn to be shot and killed. I cannot tell them that.

[Aidan]

I appreciate where you're coming from and I appreciate the diversity within our community of the perspectives and how to approach this. But what is so frustrating since October 7th is that there has been a sense of an enforced conformity within our society, within our people, that a lot of the folks from the outside, a lot of the academics, a lot of the non Palestinian voices have added to it, whereby I have had tens of thousands of messages from Israelis across the spectrum, folks including even reservists who have served in Gaza, who say, you know what, you single handedly helped me realize that there are actually innocent people in the Gaza Strip. That might sound, that is sad.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

But you know what takes someone like you for them to believe there are innocent people in Gaza, that is very sad.

[Aidan]

I agree, I agree. But we have to start somewhere.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

We are starting, but those movements on campuses, those demonstrations, they are starting.

[Aidan]

The witnesses are making it 50 times worse. They are further dehumanizing our people and they are supporting how resistance.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

I met those young amazing kids and students. They're amazing.

[Dana]

I'm stop you guys because this leads into our next claim.

[Aidan]

Time is up. You may return. Thank you very much. This episode is brought to you by Pluto tv. Summer of cinema is here and Pluto TV is exploding with thousands of free movies. Feel the explosive action all summer long with movies like Gladiator, Beverly Hills Cop, Impossible, Ghost Protocol, Good Burger, Stealth, Four Brothers and Star Trek. Bring the action with you and stream for free on all your favorite devices. Pluto TV stream now Pay Never. Stream now at Pluto tv. This episode is brought to you by Avid Reader Press. Legendary investor Ray Dalio's new book, How Countries Go the Big Cycle, explains the mechanics behind big debt crises. Larry Summers says Dalio's brilliant, iconoclastic approach is an invaluable resource. And Hank Paulson says it provides a solution to what is the biggest and most certain threat to our prosperity. Read it to understand the greatest economic issue of our time. Available now wherever books are sold. My next claim is that angry protests in the west are not helpful to the Palestinian people in Gaza.

[Dana]

Okay. I think it's really disheartening to see you refer to them as angry and hateful because I, as someone who just graduated from UC San Diego, actually created something called the Special Committee of Human Rights with a policy of ethical spending. And you know what we were branded as in every single newspaper? As anti Semitic, despite anyone being able to use these kinds of things to kind of bring up any concerns to their student government and ultimately led to divestment. We also know that the heart of every single social movement is the student led movement. And through student led movements, we're able to teach and learn. One of the chants that we have is like, remember South Africa, Remember Vietnam? And through these student protests and student activism, we're able to teach things like how multiple of the African settlers from South Africa after the downfall of the apartheid state, actually converted to Judaism and then moved to Palestine and now somehow have a more legitimate claim in Palestine than me, a Palestinian, which is insane. On top of that, I wanted to talk about everything that these movements can teach. You bring up the Oslo Accords all the time. But what we were able to learn on campus through student organizing and people who are very well versed in these subjects from professors and academics is like, hey, also Accords. What happened to Yitzhak Rabin? Murdered. By who? A far right Israeli. On top of that, Yasser Arafat. Al Jazeera did an entire documentary showing how he was murdered. Why aren't these things talked about in normal media? And the student movement brings it to the forefront. The UCs know how much power that the student movements have, that they have a whole page saying how the UC students helped end apartheid and Israel is an illegal apartheid state, and the students are standing up to that. Why is that wrong?

[Aidan]

So I share your desire to see a strong pro Palestine activism community on college campuses. And that is in fact why I, on all my socials start with saying that I am pro Palestine. That is literally what my bio says. But I want to redefine what it means to be pro Palestine in the context of college activism. I unfortunately have seen a consistent devolution of a lot of what could otherwise be unique opportunities to drum up support for the just and urgent aspirations of the Palestinian peoples. The pursuit of statehood, of dignity, of freedom. A lot of these encampments and the way that they've devolved into vandalism, into obstructions, into a divisive display.

[Dana]

Name one encampment with a lot of destruction and violence that UCLA that I went to myself. Zionists were the ones who bashed in students heads, lit up fireworks, threw mice into these encampments to torment students. And constantly, just this past week, they tried playing a movie screening on campus to show the encampments film on campus. They were met with multiple police officers all throughout the region. They arrested students and the Zionists went around playing videos of babies crying on loud blasts.

[Aidan]

I was at the UCLA encampment last year when it happened. And I saw in the aftermath of the encampment, both at UCLA and at multiple.

[Dana]

Is vandalism unique only to the Palestinian movement? Or did every single social movement take drastic measures like the encampments which were popped up during the Vietnam War and South Africa? This isn't new to these universities. In fact, they tout them as successes.

[Aidan]

So I don't want the Palestinian cause that's already associated with so much negativity in the Western world to be associated with more divisive rhetoric, heartbreaking, like you.

[Dana]

Said, to see these images of our family members. But that won't move people. That doesn't. And I'm not for vandalism. In fact, it's against my religion to vandalize things that aren't mine. It's against it. And you see, we can't be. People are outraged. And this is not unique to the Palestinian movement. Right. It shouldn't happen. But it is what it takes for universities to recognize that these students want something to change because they are the active funders and perpetuators of, of this illegal occupation. I, through peaceful means, was able to divest through peaceful means, was able to work through the student government, and I'm working towards that. But what was I labeled as hateful and anti Semitic, despite me creating something that any student of any background can use. So I think it's very. I'm going through peaceful means and I've been doing through peaceful means. But look at how we're being branded.

[Aidan]

Look at how somebody like myself, I have gone to multiple, multiple college campuses since October 7th. And the amount of hatred and the amount of incitement against me, against you, against me, the amount of.

[Dana]

These people don't feel safe in your presence in those encampments. I'm not saying it's justified. By all means, do not get me wrong.

[Aidan]

But this is. Excuse me, I need to speak. The ability to express a divergent Palestinian view has been systematically suppressed by the pro Palestine activism.

[Dana]

I disagree. The Palestinian view. I am not able to get half the facts that I just set out in any mainstream media. I have done countless media interviews for 30, 40 minutes and I get a two second soundbite. Why is that?

[Aidan]

I get interrupted at many of my talks. I have had threats of violence at ucsf, at Drew University. I was being attacked by students at Ithaca College.

[Dana]

Talk about the definition. I had to have security, protest means testify.

[Aidan]

And to put forth a literal pro Palestine. Excuse me, A literal pro Palestine, self identifying Palestinian from Gaza. A young Muslim Arab gentleman who lost family members, who is saying, I want to honor the legacy of my fallen family members to connect with the Jewish community. That might be different from your opponent.

[Dana]

That is different. The same way that the American Palestinians. That's. That's also something that we see. There's discourse. We're not a monolith.

[Aidan]

Why is it that I can't have that voice? But you expect you. Not you per se, but you. The rhetorical.

[Dana]

You can't generalize because you haven't talked to every student. See how you're coming to this belief without knowing any single person at UC San Diego. Because no one was like that. And because you encountered a few people who were like that doesn't mean everyone's like that.

[Aidan]

Why were Jewish students systematically harassed?

[Dana]

Oh, in mine and in ucla had Shabbos, had had multiple events that were rooted in Jewish people.

[Aidan]

JVP type students.

[Dana]

What does that mean? Does that diminish their Jewish identity?

[Aidan]

It doesn't. It means, as our dear doctor here said, they are a fraction of the community and the majority of the Jewish community, the Hillel students, the Chabad students.

[Dana]

I didn't see that they were on a regular basis, external people coming to campuses. And I don't deny that. So, okay, I want to come to.

[Aidan]

Palestine, which is the effort that I launched. I want to, for example, incorporate a component that allows for college activism. If I may, Please. That holds space for multiple students.

[Dana]

So we had a class that was called Representations in the Israeli Palestinian Conflict at ucsd. The professor himself was a Jewish man who isn't involved in JVP or anything. Yet that class still faced so much harassment and so did he. The university shows a very limited scope of Holocene. They never condemn the. The war crimes that Israel commits. The UCs, any kind of encampment or student led movement puts forth and challenges the status quo on things that aren't taught in traditional classrooms. Because the Palestinian cause is so censored.

[Aidan]

The frame, the frame of the question was helping people in Gaza. Give me one example in which this helped stop the war in Gaza.

[Dana]

Oh, absolutely.

[Aidan]

Save the single life.

[Dana]

You can see Riverside. They just divested and again used to.

[Aidan]

How does that. I will tell you how to stop the war.

[Dana]

All of these are. It's piece by piece. Of course, you know the war won't stop overnight. It's our tax dollars, billions of them that have been going to Israel since its inception and these universities that take part in it through weapons. Actually UCSD does research for weapons manufacturing. Imagine if they all of a sudden stopped having the weapons that they're using to kill our family.

[Aidan]

Israel has an elaborate defense.

[Dana]

Okay, okay. No, no, no. There have been many resources that have come out that if United States stopped funding Israel, they would be significantly weaker than they are now. Anyways, I digress. Next point. In terms of the UCs and all the universities that partake in these protests. Again, the UC University of California website has a whole page to how students helped end apartheid South Africa. Palestine is no different. And again, if we stop sending study abroad programs through divestment and boycotts and peaceful means of protest.

[Aidan]

Protests have unfortunately made our just cause so terribly misrepresented. The prohibition. Can I finish please, without being constantly interrupted? Okay. Our cause has been so terribly misrepresented by pro resistance slogans. Hamas flags, Hezbollah flags. At a lot of these encampments at a lot of these.

[Dana]

I disagree. We had a Shahada flag at a protest and they marketed it as a Al Qaeda Fahad, which is so wrong.

[Aidan]

Within our lifetime. N. Keswani. Within our lifetime. Literally. Literally is pro Hamas. Literally is pro the armed resistance narrative.

[Dana]

Why is she a representative for the entire movement? Why there is not a single person that should be representative of the entire movement and every Palestinian can agree.

[Aidan]

And because she marches out there, she sends her goons out to attack somebody like myself.

[Dana]

Like other moderate Palestinians argue about you getting attacked. I'm sorry that that happens. But I want to talk about the status quo. The fact that so many people are now enlightened and are learning about.

[Aidan]

I go to Congress, not a single Congress. I'm Based in. I live in D.C. the Palestinian cause has become so radioactive because of these terrible slogans, this divisive rhetoric coming out of these colleges.

[Dana]

Congressman's due diligence to look up and listen to their consent, constituents and yes, sorry, you've been voted out by the majority. Please return to.

[Aidan]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Eli]

I think the biggest objection that I have towards this narrative that things have gotten worse in terms of, like, perspectives towards Palestinians, is that it's false. The perspective that I've seen from most Americans, especially towards Muslims and especially towards the Palestinian cause, has been entirely defined by whatever Israel has put forward. Prior to October 7th, the only narrative that we ever got was people got killed. The United States and Israel puts forth their claim and it's disseminated out. People don't think about it. The perspective is so different now. I never in my life ever thought there would be an actual homegrown Palestinian movement in the United States. That it is now. I think that I've seen so much grace, so much kindness, so much compassion for people that we would qualify as not having anything to do with the conflict overseas. And it's incredibly encouraging. And I've only ever met people in these encampments, people who care more about stopping violence than people who want horror to continue. People who are right to be angry, people should be enraged. They should be incandescent with outrage. We have spent the last near two years seeing the horrors that this genocide has inflicted upon a small area that we could qualify as a concentration camp by an ethno nationalist, racist project propped up by the United States. That is why there is a protest movement among Western students. Because we are culpable. We fund it. We send weapons over there. And we are outraged that on our name we share culpability for it. I didn't choose to send weapons to Israel, nor to wipe out people who I never met. And I will do anything that I can to prevent that. I come from Mexico, my own country, right? There's femicide, there is violence against indigenous people, Right? I've left my country for years now, but I still feel rage over the mass murder that my government, the army, the cartels and the hacienda owners do on the indigenous populations. And I feel very encouraged when people who have nothing to do with me feel the same exact pain. I would disregard your classification of Western protesters as enraged or as unjustly angry because they should be mad. Everyone should be mad. And I've seen so many changes in perspective from people who do not give, would not care because of the brave people that go out there every day at every university college campus, and they pay the price for it every day. Like you spoke about, the filming was raided by the LAPD SWAT team who act as an occupation force in this city. The people who are most affected by it are trained by the IDF to act as an occupation force. My own city pays $1.6 million to be trained by the IDF to brutalize poor people, black people, brown people. We are not separate. This is not one person's struggle. This is everyone's struggle.

[Aidan]

So I share your optimism about the potential for a really robust pro Palestine activism movement that can really move the needle on this issue. And this is part of why I'm sharing this frustration with the devolution of what I felt was a unique opportunity. I once seen a generation, but I.

[Eli]

Disagree because I believe that the politics of moderatism is the politics of mediocrity.

[Aidan]

If I may. Please. There was historically it was difficult to speak about, to have a genuinely pro Palestine issue without facing some accusations, often from false, of antisemitism. I believe that that used to be the case. I think times have changed now whereby I have sat in the middle of some of the most Zionist, pro Israel spaces where I have spoken about Hamas's crimes. To what? Hamas's. Excuse me. To what? Excuse me, I'm coming to that. Hamas's crimes, Hamas's violence. But in the same vein, I have spoken about Netanyahu being a war criminal.

[Eli]

Netanyahu is not the issue. The issue existed pre existing that there's been decades of a supremacist system that quotes one ethnic group over the other.

[Aidan]

For being a good custodian of the message that we in the diaspora have been entrusted with. And that is why I am not saying every single protest is hateful. I'm not saying the.

[Eli]

But you are putting forward the propaganda and the narrative that paints pause.

[Dana]

You've been voted out. Please return to your seat.

[Aidan]

Thank you.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

In your mind, what justifies a protest?

[Aidan]

I think if there is a social issue, if there is a political issue that people have a strong opinion about, they have a right to share their voice, their opposition, or their support for what is happening. What they don't have a right to do is to turn that protest into an opportunity to vector potentially other messages that I think are immensely unhelpful. Such as, in order to support the people of Gaza, we need to bring down Western civilization on one extreme end. Or in order to support the people of Gaza, we need to support by all means Necessary for resistance, which is pro Hamas resistance.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Can you give me an example of an actual protest or actual organization involved in protest that says that we need to bring down Western civilization?

[Aidan]

You have a compilation and a collection of campus organizations throughout the last 18 months. You have. Within our lifetime, you have. I have seen with my own eyes groups that I used to support who call for the rights of Native Americans, the rights of immigrant issues, all of which rights I support, somehow coalesce around this issue and through the lens.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Okay, interrupt. So there is no organization that calls for the downfall of Western civilization. The primary goal. Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. The primary goal of organizing and protest with regard to Israel is to divest because we do not want our money, by the way. It's our money, it's our taxpayer dollars which gives us the right, no matter whether we're white, black, brown, it does not matter whether we're gay or straight. We have the right to decide where our taxpayer dollars go. So as I respect your identity as a Palestinian, I think you absolutely have a right to talk about who you want to lead your people. But when you say that people of other cultures are sucking the oxygen out of the pro Palestine movement because we're not Palestinian, it is actually our right as Americans to. To decide where our taxpayer dollars go and when peaceful protests don't do anything. Or when, as you say, happy protests, not angry protests, when the government doesn't feel threatened.

[Aidan]

I did not say happy protests, by.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

The way, but okay, not angry protests. Where do we go? Where do we go when the protests don't do anything and when our government.

[Aidan]

Doesn'T listen to us, we build broader coalitions. We talk to the other side of this issue. They're right across from us. We go to Hillel, we go to Chabad, we talk to the very.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

I'm sorry, Hillel supports the genocide in Gaza.

[Aidan]

We talk about.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

We cannot make a coalition with people who support a genocide.

[Aidan]

We talk to them and we find the slightest of common ground. Where this is not a relationship that is characterized by constant fighting, but this can achieve us the win.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I agree that we should find common ground with people who share our values. I do not agree that we should find common ground with people who support a genocide. That's unacceptable.

[Aidan]

Peace with your enemies, not with your friends.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

No. We do not make peace with people who are murdering children, who are targeting, who are literally doing systemic rape in prisons in Israel, to hostages who have not been held trial. We do not support people who want to fund the targeting of medical personnel.

[Aidan]

The people of Gaza are paying the price of the very strategy that you are putting promulgating the people of Gaza protest. The people of Gaza are paying the price.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Peaceful.

[Aidan]

No, no, no.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

You're wrong. You're wrong. You have just said that peaceful protest has led to the death of 50,000 Palestinians in Gaza. That's what you just said.

[Aidan]

The people. Yes, because the protests could have built a compelling coalition that could have actually led to a ceasefire. That could have called Hamas out. Instead of celebrating October 7th, instead of putting paraglider images and putting, you know, by all means. And the upside down triangles on Twitter bios, they could have actually separated the Palestinian issue from Hamas.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Aidan, you are more concerned. Sorry, you are more concerned with upside down triangles on Twitter than a genocide. There is no middle ground with people who are more concerned with upside down triangles and then children dying.

[Aidan]

More concerned than people burning alive. And sloganeer. Not you. You, per se. I don't care about slogans. I care about dead Palestinians. And guys, I want to stop that at all costs.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Great. So join the protest. To divest it from Israel. Join the protest.

[Yahya]

That's time.

[Dana]

Aiden, please return to your seat.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

What is dedication?

[Aidan]

The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariana. We call him Dae Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

That's dedication. Find out [e-mail], brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.

[Aidan]

My next claim is being pro Palestine necessitates accepting a free Palestine side by side, next to Israel.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

First, I'm Filipino. Okay, I know I'm miscellaneous brown, but I'm Filipino.

[Aidan]

You're just as important as any other human being.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Didn't sound like that earlier. Okay. No, really, I did take a lot of offense to what you said when you said Homie was taking a lot of the air out of the room because he wasn't Palestinian or he wasn't whatever. I feel like as a human being. Okay, As a human being. The right to protest, the right to stand up for yourself, the right to be. The right to stand up for an underdog. I mean, we're talking about Israel here. We're talking about Israel funded by the United States government and the military industrial complex. And then you're talking about Palestinians who are trying to scrounge for something. You know, I don't, I don't understand.

[Yahya]

Your logic because basically you sound to.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Me like somebody during the Revolutionary War to be like, hey, let's just wait and see if the British change their ways. That's basically what you're saying to me. That's the whole time I've been sitting there just listening to you justify colonization, justify persecution, justify genocide. Because until we divest from Israel and until we take military money away from Israel, then there is no two state solution. Because Israel is not. Is the two states. It's United States and Israel and whatever they want and whatever they dictate.

[Aidan]

Well, I share your belief that we need to work towards a Palestinian state. I absolutely appreciate having non Palestinian voices working toward Palestinian freedom and liberation.

[Yahya]

I said that earlier.

[Aidan]

However, what I don't appreciate are non Palestinians who are very patronizing and very disrespectful toward divergent Palestinian views. And as if they have a monopolistic absolute truth that only they share, understand that the Palestinian community, just like any other community, we are not monolithic. We have a variety of perspectives. So what I don't appreciate also is that somehow the aforementioned and the entirety of what I shared all day long is that I am for genocide.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

No, I didn't, I didn't say you're for genocide.

[Aidan]

Wait, wait, wait folks, pause. Sorry.

[Dana]

You've been voted out.

[Aidan]

Okay, thank you.

[Summer]

So your claim is that we should have a two state solution, correct?

[Aidan]

In essence, yes. Regardless of the specifics of the borders, we have to accept that a free Palestine is only going to exist side by side with Israel.

[Summer]

So you're accepting that Israel needs to give up their occupation of the Palestinian people, correct?

[Aidan]

Absolutely. But we need to agree on what constitutes occupation.

[Summer]

Constituting occupation means economic, it means legal, it means apologies.

[Aidan]

Sorry. What I meant is to say for some people the entirety of the existence of Israel means occupation. Whereas.

[Summer]

And you don't agree that it does.

[Aidan]

That's a moot point right now. Because Israel is a de jure.

[Summer]

It's not a point. Because the 2018 Nation State Law states that only Jewish people have the right to self determination, taking away any rights of Arab Israelis of Palestinian people. So they are, they are legally removing any type of legal representation of Palestinian people.

[Aidan]

That's including yourself within the, the 1948-1967 borders. I accept that that is the state of Israel in which a majority Jewish population is going to live.

[Summer]

So you think that all the settlers need to leave the West Bank?

[Aidan]

I think there needs to be. Absolutely needs to be some kind of a resolution that entails the eviction of a majority of the settlers. However, there are some communities in the west bank, some settlements that I just. I don't pragmatically see a scenario in which you address them. So then I have a vision. There's been a proposal. Just one last point, please. You do a territorial swaps. This has been already discussed and done.

[Summer]

Why should the Palestinians give up their land in the first place? The Israeli state was built on top of Palestinian land. It was built on top of the blood of Palestinian people. Your family has suffered for this and you are not acknowledging your own family's pain. I'm just. I'm baffled by this. I'm confused. I don't understand at this point. As a non Arab person. This confuses me me that somebody who is Arab does not acknowledge the pain of their own family members.

[Aidan]

I acknowledge the pain of the Native American community.

[Summer]

You're not acknowledging it because you're going Hamas, Hamas, Hamas.

[Aidan]

Excuse me. I acknowledge the pain of the Native American community and the injustices that they faced throughout their history. But the Native American community are not going to evict the United States from existence.

[Summer]

Let me ask you a question. So I acknowledge in 1848, there was the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. If Mexico decided that they no longer wanted to recognize that border and say, hey, we're going to take back New Mexico, California, Arizona, do you think everybody in those states is going to be like, well, time to learn Spanish and how to dance cumbia? No. No, they're not. They're going to protect their land. And let me tell you another thing. So in 2023, March of 2023, the 2005 Disengagement act, it did not just remove settlers from the Gaza Strip, it also removed four settlements from the northern West Bank. They overturned parts of that disengagement act that said that settlers can go back to those four settlements in the northern West bank, which now 40,000 Palestinians have been removed from the Janine camps, from.

[Aidan]

The Tulkaram camps due to Hamas and terrorists in there.

[Summer]

So do you not think that the people of Gaza are not looking at that like, oh, my God, we are next. Is that not an act of war? Would that not be an act of war?

[Aidan]

Excuse me. Unfortunately, many people talk without understanding that the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority. We've already agreed to the 1967 ban.

[Summer]

They are legally trying to annex that territory.

[Dana]

You've been voted out.

[Aidan]

Please return to your seat.

[Dana]

Thank you.

[Yahya]

Thank you.

[Aidan]

Appreciate it.

[Yahya]

All right, so. So let's talk about the two state solution. The two state solution has been dead for decades. You know, it's a stall tactic by the Zionist colonial project, the settler colonial project. You can't want to have two states when you have a system, a regime of apartheid. And the settlements are expanding to this day. Yesterday, a couple days ago, they ordered 106 homes to be demolished in Noodlesham's Tulkaram area. So this is just not a realistic approach. So you need to dismantle apartheid first. We need to have the refugees have the right to return. We need to have justice and peace for the Palestinians. There needs to be accountability for the Israeli war crimes for the past seven decades or so. The settlement expansions. There's ethnic cleansing been going on since 1947 till 1949, known as the Nakba Catastrophe. The dispossession of Palestinian homes, the land theft, the 700,000 settlers or more that are in the west bank, that are uprooting the native indigenous Palestinian population with the full backing of the terrorist Israeli Defense Forces. So these settlers are armed, by the way. Israel is such a militarized society. They're all walking around with, casually with ars. They all have to join the idf and they're trained and backed by the idf, by the way. Let's talk about the Oslo Accords real quick if we can. So my uncle was actually one of the negotiators in the oslo Accords. The PLO. 93, 95. And he's critical of it. He resigned from the Palestinian Authority and the PLO in Israel at the time. Clearly there was a power imbalance, right? So in 1993, the PLO recognized Israel's estate. They renounced armed struggle. And what do we get in return? We didn't get self determination. We didn't get a land. We didn't get a state. And we got more land fragmentation. And we got occupation. And we got more people being killed.

[Aidan]

More civilians being killed simultaneous with Hamas suicide bombers. And you're Ibn Gaza. You're a son of Gaza. Yahya Ahmed Agil. You know those names, right? Salah, you know the OG suicide bombers ruined the fragile yet viable Oslo process.

[Yahya]

We got what happened when. What happened with Rabin, who assassinated him?

[Aidan]

The Israeli settlers and the far right.

[Yahya]

The far right Israelis, they killed him because he wanted to make peace with the Palestinians.

[Aidan]

In parallel with Hamas terrorizing the Palestinians. Why didn't arafat accept the 2000 Camp.

[Yahya]

David piece of propaganda? Bull crap. I don't believe that.

[Aidan]

So, okay, how about the 2008 Olmert deal that Abbas walked away from just.

[Yahya]

Because the PA is corrupt?

[Aidan]

I understand that. They're like a mini mafia nowadays. They're like a mini mafia.

[Yahya]

They're subcontractors to the Israeli settler project. They kill Palestinians, they detain Palestinians and they're working with Israel. And what do we get? We got nothing. Law courts are there. We have no state, we have no self determination. This is why resistance exists.

[Aidan]

So why is it that in 2017 when Hamas updated their charter, basically they effectively accepted the 1967 borders. Khalil Al Hayya, the leader of Hamas, just like eight months ago, came out with a big statement to Reuters that said, we are willing to renounce armed resistance if there is a two state solution. So what is it that we are in the Western world, we are so pro, some of the most maximalist demands when the Palestinians on the ground themselves, including Hamas, the Islamist extremists, are willing to accept.

[Yahya]

Here's where I think we should go forward. Right, so there needs, clearly there needs to be a ceasefire because women and children, elderly men, should not be getting bombed and blown to pieces by the terrorist Israeli occupation. So that needs to happen first. There's a lot of things that need to happen. There needs to be peace and justice for the Palestinians before we could even think of coexisting with people who are killing us and see us as not even human.

[Dana]

Pause. Sorry, you've been voted out. Please return to your seat.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

First off, I'd like to say the stuff that happened with you, it was tragic. And I am not a Palestinian. I am a Sierra Leonean American.

[Aidan]

I'm sorry, you're what?

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

A Sierra Leonean American. A West African country. In terms of pain. I understand your pain because I am from a country of war. I have lost many people in that country. But my question to you is, and in a term, my warning to you is, how can you have peace with people that simply want you gone? I've seen this lots of times, especially in the continent.

[Aidan]

I'm from Africa.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Ethnic cleansing is very, very good there. Central Republic of Africa.

[Aidan]

A lot of people are gone.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Places like Congo, and I believe a few. The gentleman right here, Rwanda, has brought it up. So basically, I'm sitting here not to criticize you. I don't want to make fun of you or any of the sort. I want to understand you. How can somebody whose enemy doesn't even see him as human. Take their side.

[Aidan]

I think that's a valid point to ask as far as how do we. But for me, it's like, how can I humanize? I understand some will believe that it's not our job as Palestinians to humanize ourselves to the Israelis because we're the victims. As a radical pragmatist and a believer in wanting to be forward looking, I have decided that I want to actually dabble in that exercise. And I found it to be, in my personal view, entirely achievable and doable because you have such divisive lines that simply by breaking them down in a way that like I have with connecting with, with. With hostage families, with Israelis across the spectrum. Zionists are not like people use it as a slur. Sorry. Zionism is a spectrum.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Sorry to cut you off, but there's certain things that you're saying, it's contradictory. You would say that you're for certain things, but you don't want protest, you don't want violence. You say, for example, you said the protests are violent, but that's the same thing they said about the LA riots. They said they were violent. They said the people were animals. You're from dc. I am from DC as well. That means, you know, the Baltimore riots, they call them animals.

[Aidan]

What's wrong with humanizing the people of Gaza to an audience that has only thought, everybody in Gaza belongs to Hamas. Everybody in Gaza participated in October 7th.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Okay, I will answer.

[Aidan]

I'll answer your question with a question of palace.

[Dana]

Sorry, you've been voted out.

[Aidan]

Please return to the pleasure.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Thank you, brother.

[Aidan]

Thank you.

[Dana]

So I wanted to come up here and talk about a couple of things again. I first of all can't speak to what happens in Palestine, as I don't live there and you don't live there either. Right. Want to get that clear. But I do want to talk about the history of Zionism and what Israel was founded on. How like in Plan Delete, which was written in the 1940s, is the exact plan that Smotrick and Netanyahu are carrying out. You can condemn them all you want, but these are just props of the entire thing of what Israel's founded on. On top of that, Theodore Herzl was saying that we are the penniless society and looking at also Jabotinsky who said, at any cost. I'm paraphrasing here. At any cost of the NIDA society, the state will be established. And there are countless other quotes that I'm not bringing up. But the very Founders of Zionism were atheists, number one. Number two, I brought up earlier how people just converted to Judaism and suddenly had a claim over the land more than usual. And at the cost of it comes who? The Palestinians.

[Aidan]

I agree, by the way, this idea that, like, somebody is gonna somehow leave Brooklyn and go to the west bank to terrorize Palestinians and stake their claim to the land and push the. I agree that that's abhorrent. Like, I do not.

[Dana]

Do you agree that the Israelis, like 1948 Palestine was once Palestinian lands, that they illegally displace 750,000 Palestinians and kick them out into Gaza and all throughout the west bank and carry out these illegal settlements as well? Do you agree that that happened?

[Aidan]

I mean, yes. And I think there are. I think there are complexities and nuanced conversations, of course I know that I want to have on how to move us forward. Litigating something from 77 years ago is not going to stop.

[Dana]

But I have a question. If it's not addressed, that pain that has happened, that 77 years of what Israel allowed to carry out and is countlessly carrying out in the west bank, as we saw one day after the United nations voted to recognize Palestine and update their status, Israel retaliated in building 3,500 settlements in the west bank by giving an approval. How is that okay? How are we supposed to work with them? And I want you to answer this question, okay? If we do not address the pain of the Nakba and everything that happened, what's stopping Israel from carrying out this? Because they continue to build settlements in defiance of international law. They continue to carry out a genocide in defiance of international law. How are they going to move forward? And please don't bring up Hamas, because in the west bank, there's not a single single Hamas. Ruins.

[Aidan]

We know it's the people that's inaccurate, actually. Hamas is very active. It's always productive. But I mean, I agree, like, I'm just saying, to help your talking points be better, just don't bring up the, like, no Hamas in the West Bank. Like, let's retire that. Let's retire that.

[Dana]

Okay, sure. But I'm giving you. Let's grant you.

[Aidan]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Dana]

But let's look at the PA who's running it and governing it. But so can you.

[Aidan]

I want a cohesive, Palestinian compelling national project that compels the international community, the United States and Israel and the Arabs to say, this is our plan for how we're going to live in peace on our land.

[Dana]

What does peace look like? Because your Peace doesn't happen.

[Aidan]

Peace doesn't look like launching. October 7th, the worst single day attack on the Jewish people since the Holocaust.

[Dana]

Can I please change my point, please? Because I want to talk about my peace is not giving my land over to the people who have consistently occupied it and then continue to build.

[Aidan]

I agree.

[Dana]

That's fine. Thank you.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

So let me start by saying I never met you before and I never heard about you before. It's my first time to see you and talk to you. People told me who you are before we started. I don't think you're a traitor. I don't think you're a Zionist. But I think you're sorry for saying that. Delusional when you are assuming that you can sit down with such an aggressive government and saying they are willing to accept my existence as a Palestinian. I have several points that I agree with you on. I don't like the fact that some of the protester, again a fringe who used bad words and harmed the cause of Palestine. And I personally spoke to them and I said that's not allowed. You're not allowed to do any graffiti on the walls of the schools. You're not allowed to say anything that's anti Semitic. We agree on that. We also agree that Palestinians, good percentage of them, don't mind having a two state solution living side by side by the Israelis. We have that the problem. It's not us who's rejecting this. It's not us who are building settlements and creating the west bank into a Swiss cheese form. Where people in Bethlehem, my own town, young men cannot travel more than two miles away from their homes without a checkpoint. If they have to go to Ramallah or another city, they have to go through a valley called Wadinar, which is a valley, very, very scary drive in the mountains and the hills and the half an hour, 45 minutes trip will take them four hours to go around. It's not us who are rejecting the peace. It's not us who are rejecting. I don't like the fact that whoever's trying to promote that. This is the moderate view and this is the extremist view. We are not extremists. We are trying to bring our people to a very peaceful, civilized status. Living circumstances where they have all their civil rights, human rights, we don't mind side by side by the Jewish community. But it cannot be an apartheid. I cannot have a drip of water once a week and my next door settlement are swimming in pools every day. We cannot have that. We cannot have the fact that I don't have the right to vote or say anything in the west bank for my own rights and my own future, while the Israelis are living with complete democracy and freedom of speech. So that's what we agreed upon.

[Aidan]

I appreciate you sharing and highlighting the points of agreements because that's what's critical. That's what I am interested in. This from the point of what is going to move the needle for our community on the land and here in the diaspora. What I would offer is that there are differences between Gaza and the west bank such that Gaza, for example, and.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

They wanted it to be that way. They intentionally made it trying to create two separate countries.

[Aidan]

But I would say before we can get to a place where we can have that cohesive national structure to make a compelling case on college campuses, before the United States, before Congress, before the un, before social media and mainstream media, and everywhere, we have to clean house. Some people look at cleaning house, unfortunately, and very sadly as we have to enforce conformity so that we're all, all behind the resistance.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

No, I don't think that's some very few, you're right.

[Aidan]

But my version of.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

I hope you're not doing the same. I hope, because that's what we're trying to do. You're trying to create conformity. That all of us have to agree with you.

[Aidan]

No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying can we please just agree that I don't want to replace Israel's occupation with an ISIS like government.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Nobody wants that or Hamas. Nor like an Assad regime system like.

[Aidan]

But we have in Western or Ba' Athist regime. We don't mean that like the Palestinian Authority.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

The reality of the matter, Ahmed, that the Israeli government, that's what they want. They want a dictatorship.

[Aidan]

Our leaders are allowing that. And unfortunately some of our misinformed folks with the sloganeering and being misinformed from the very dense details, they're not informed enough to understand that. So for me, I'm starting brick by brick. I want to start with Gaza.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

So can you start with this brick? Can you acknowledge there's a brutal occupation of Palestinians in Palestine since 1948? Can you acknowledge there's a brutal killing and persecution of people in Gaza and the West bank before October 11? Can you acknowledge that? Can you just say that to us?

[Aidan]

Yes, yes, I have said that in.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

My mind not a single time today. I don't, I don't read your bio. I never read it.

[Aidan]

Okay, I want you to tell me I'm anti occupation. Here's how I define myself. I'M pro Palestine, anti Hamas, anti occupation, pro peace and coexistence.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

You didn't say anti Israel, anti Israeli occupation. Why you want to say that?

[Aidan]

Anti occupation. It's a given who's doing the occupation, who's even. Of course, of course it's Israel that's doing the occupation. Of course.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Okay, let us, let us.

[Aidan]

This is a form of purity. Like that's what you're doing. Say it.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

You're like you're doing every interview that we did, the first thing they question, do you condemn? Do you condemn? Do you condemn? That's what you're trying to do to us here.

[Aidan]

That's because I believe that Hamas, unfortunately for the people of Gaza, is an existential threat to our very survival. They are the.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

You have the right to have your opinion, but some people, people don't see that as well. And they see it as a natural outcome of a brutal occupation and 16 years of siege against the people of Gaza. That's how people see it. So if you are trying to diminish the concerns of the Palestinians by just keep saying that over and over and over again. I work with congress people, I deal with elected officials. And I know what you're trying to do, but let's try to be a little bit realistic by just putting the blame only on Gazans, only on Palestinians. That's 50 or 100,000 people died because of them. Not acceptable.

[Dana]

All right, guys, that's time, that's time.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Please return to your.

[Eli]

Thank you.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Thank you very much.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

Appreciate you.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Ahmed will now choose someone from the circle to debate again for 10 minutes.

[Aidan]

Based on a claim of their choice. Yeah, let's do this gentleman here. William, I choose to have an extended conversation with you because you are from Gaza. And though I fundamentally disagreed with a lot of your views, I feel strongly that those of us who come from Gaza, there's so few of us that are able to have this conversation. So I would like to keep that going.

[Yahya]

My claim is that the root cause of the issue is the Israeli military occupation of historic Palestine and the denial of self determination of the Palestinians by the Israeli occupation.

[Aidan]

Well, I can appreciate that opinion in the sense that I hear it often. As a radical pragmatist, I am forward looking and thinking about the future. I acknowledge that there have been historic injustices perpetuated against the Palestinian people. However, I am also a big believer that it is past due for our people to engage in true introspection, to look at the mistakes throughout the journey of the Palestinian national project that were committed either by Palestinian leadership or by the Arab and Muslim communities who were part of our journey. I am a big believer that that is not a form of self loathing, self hatred or blaming the victims. But it is actually the first step towards empowering the Palestinian people to acknowledge our shortcomings, to acknowledge our mistakes. As I said that within the imbalance of power dynamics such that Israel is a nuclear reality on the ground with 7 million people that live in it. Jewish Israelis, by the way, half of whom are of Mizrahi, call themselves Mizrahi origin. And that is a lot of folks from the Arab world, some of whom voluntarily left, some of whom have been forcibly pushed in there.

[Yahya]

Can I ask you a question?

[Aidan]

Please.

[Yahya]

So who founded Israel? The Ashkenazi Jews. Right.

[Aidan]

And from Europe there were Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews who were absolutely.

[Yahya]

They were there living in Peace before of 1948, the Nakba and the continued Jewish immigration into Palestine.

[Aidan]

I think some of that has been overstated, but I will generally say yes, Jewish folks have had lineage in the land and have lived there for generations. I agree that the most modern incarnation of the state of Israel was something that was diaspora led. But once again, these complex issues of litigating the origin. I mean, one of the things that I have spent a lot of time doing, and believe me, some of that was hard because again, my grandparents on both sides of my dad and my mom were, yes, and displaced in 1948. On my dad's side, they were from modern day Rehoboth and they were actually forcibly pushed out. On my mom's side, they were from Hamama, which is modern day Ashkelon, right by the Gaza Strip. And they were actually, they left because the Egyptian army as it was marching, told a lot of folks to get out of the way. What do you mean? Come on. This is the reality.

[Yahya]

This is what sits deflecting.

[Aidan]

This is what my grandma mentioned. I'm not saying that this didn't happen in response to the Zionist issue.

[Yahya]

That's the issue. We need to put more pressure and attention on what the core issue is, which is illegal Israeli military occupation, settled colonialism, apartheid. So the Nakba happened because of terrorist Zionist militias came and displaced our people, uprooted the native indigenous Palestinian people from their lands, like Yaffa. We're from Yaffa. We're from Gaza too. They kicked us out. They killed 15,000 people and they displaced 750,000 people. They destroyed over 531 villages. So this is the root cause. This is like, how do you Build. How do you want peace from that? You know what I mean? Like, if you killed our people and displaced them and gave them nothing, no rights, no humanity, no dignity, how do you expect peace from that?

[Aidan]

Because I look at what's there right now and I see that our people are in a position where we're being chased out of the very last remnants. I want to reinforce our ability to persevere on what remains of our land. I want Gaza, I want the west bank, and I want what remains of our access to East Jerusalem to be the nexus of Palestinian heritage and perseverance on the land.

[Yahya]

How do we get there when they're literally bombing women, children, elderly, the sick, all in Gaza?

[Aidan]

Let's go back to everybody's favorite word here. We call out what triggered the worst chapter in Palestinian history, which is an ISIS like ideology and group that literally served our people.

[Yahya]

Do you think it happened in a vacuum? October 7th just happened on.

[Aidan]

I don't subscribe to this idea of, oh, what about on October? I'll tell you what was happening on October 6th. 50,000 people were still alive, including my family members and probably many of your family members. The people of Gaza had options. On October, there were 20,000 to 50,000 people working in Israel. There was aid. There were people who were able to build futures. There were students. There were universities. There were about 10 universities.

[Yahya]

I want to talk about the siege of Gaza, right? So please, please don't say it's because of Hamas. This is.

[Aidan]

Of course, I'm going to say that again.

[Yahya]

Resistance is a byproduct of occupation. So if you don't want resistance, if you don't want groups like Hamas, if you don't want armed struggle, then get rid of what the root causes, which is Israeli military occupation.

[Aidan]

So do you actually, actually have a linear understanding of how. And I mean that like very respectfully of how the siege actually went on?

[Yahya]

Yeah. 2000, let me say. So 2006, there was elections, right?

[Aidan]

Yep.

[Yahya]

And who was democratically elected? Hamas. Hamas, okay. By a landslide. They beat Fatah. They beat other groups.

[Aidan]

Not by a landslide. That's incorrect. And the majority of Hamas's victory was in the West Bank. Look at the numbers, brother. The majority of Hamas victory from a numeric point of view. And fact checked me, everybody here fact checked me afterwards was in the West Bank. They barely won in the best thing.

[Yahya]

But why was a group like Hamas elected? You know, because of the failed PA.

[Aidan]

And failed corruption and corruption, of course, of course.

[Yahya]

My uncle resigned from the pa, by the way. He Knew it was corrupt. My grand uncle, by the way. So Hamas was elected because there needed to be change in what was happening. The PLO, they renounced armed resistance in 93. That got us nothing. That didn't give us a state that.

[Aidan]

You know, got us a passport and an airport and negotiations for a seat board.

[Yahya]

Do you have a Palestinian passport?

[Aidan]

I do. Or I did once. I did once before.

[Yahya]

You got your American citizen in 2014. Like you couldn't do shit without a Palestinian passport. I have family.

[Aidan]

I came to the United States with it. I traveled to Arab with it.

[Yahya]

You can't do anything. Like my cousins who live in Saudi Arabia, they can't go anywhere. They need like a visa, like several months in advance. You can't do anything with the spouse and passport. Here's what needs to happen. There needs to be accountability from this Israeli government and regime. And these terrorist settlers, they need to get the hell out of my land, go back to Brooklyn or Poland, wherever the hell they come from. They need to stop killing these people. Every day they're walking around with ars, you know what I'm saying? So like the guy.

[Aidan]

But isn't that a form of hatred to say go back to Poland when you know that there are generations of Israelis, excuse me, excuse me, some current Israelis right now. They've literally lived there for generations. Like you have two generations of Israelis who know nothing about Poland, nothing about Germany, nothing about Brooklyn. For no fault of their own, their parents may have made a decision. Their parents may have been displaced and this is where they are. So to say that go back to Poland as a solution is not only ineffective and is not only lacking in pragmatism, but they would argue is a form of hate towards them.

[Yahya]

So is it okay for them to come and expand the settlements and displace Palestinians from their native land?

[Aidan]

Of course not. Of course not.

[Yahya]

Is that worse than going back to Brooklyn or Poland or Ukraine?

[Aidan]

But what I'm saying, why don't we choose careful slogans? Why don't we choose language that better positions us so that we can have the higher moral ground, number one. Number two is. Let me just go back on the issue of the blockade because I feel very passionate and sorry. My lived experience, the reason why I'm in the United States is shaped by this. There were three stages that led to the blockade.

[Yahya]

I'm talking about that kidnapped.

[Aidan]

There's the elections in which Hamas abused the democratic election. By the way, as a pro democracy individual, I was so excited by the prospect of seeing a democratic process emerge.

[Yahya]

So why are you upset with the results?

[Aidan]

Because Hamas was supposed to. Excuse me, Hamas was supposed to honor the framework upon which the elections were.

[Yahya]

You know who didn't do that? I'm pretty sure the Fatah did not transfer power the way it was supposed to be transferred.

[Aidan]

The. The framework that Hamas said they would agree to, they rescinded that. They said they would agree to the renunciation of violence and to accepting that.

[Yahya]

Israel exists, just like the previous government that did that and got us nowhere But a second 5,000 Palestinians killed more than that prime.

[Aidan]

And then there was a freezing. So that was the first tier of the blockade. The next tier of the blockade was when Hamas invaded on the Israeli side of the border in June of 2006 and abducted Gilad. And now it's stuck in Egypt and I couldn't go in.

[Yahya]

How many of our people, women, children included, were held hostage in Israeli prisons and called prisoners for no reason at all?

[Aidan]

How many people were held hostage before June 2006? There were something like three to 4,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons.

[Yahya]

Okay, so they kidnapped one soldier. A soldier, by the way, he's not a civilian, he's a.

[Aidan]

On the Israeli side of the border. But also like, you can't. Like, to you, this was for you. To you, this constitutes, and I'm not arguing for or against, but I'm saying before the international law, these people were held the Palestinian prisoners whom. I share your frustration. My sister in law's brother from Gaza, from this war has been held by.

[Yahya]

The Israeli military family members currently.

[Aidan]

We haven't heard of anything about him for a year now. We don't know if he's alive or not.

[Yahya]

I have three people still help.

[Aidan]

So. But there's just. Then like what Hamas did at that time was orders of magnitude worse than the fate of 3,000 people because then you punish 2 million Palestinians. 2 million Palestinians had to endure the consequences.

[Yahya]

So this is. So you're agreeing to collective punishment? This is collective punishment.

[Aidan]

I'm not agreeing to it.

[Yahya]

I'm saying like you agree that it's being done. You agree that it's being done.

[Aidan]

Actions have consequences. If you're going to.

[Yahya]

So if a group, if a group does something, Israel has the right to collectively punish 2 million Palestinians. So you know what they did? They made it like a. They made a total blockade of Gaza land, air and Sea in 2007, until.

[Aidan]

Now, when mass violently expelled the Palestinian Authority, killed a thousand Palestinians in a span of two to three days. I know that the militias were doing horrible things, but Hamas killed through people from the top of buildings.

[Yahya]

You know, this is a very dangerous. You know what I mean? I feel like you have more expectations on the oppressed than you do of.

[Aidan]

The oppressor because I actually despise the bigotry of low expectations. We are okay with literal terrorism because we call it, oh, this is resistance. We give Hamas an ISIS group.

[Yahya]

What are they resisting?

[Aidan]

They're not resisting exactly. They've literally become a mafia for.

[Yahya]

They're resisting the siege.

[Aidan]

Hamas is a mafia that collects taxes, that steals aid. Hamas right now is stealing aid.

[Yahya]

Why? No, no way. These are Israeli backed with videos. Why are they okay? Why are the police officers who will come to stop them being killed by Israel by drones?

[Aidan]

Police officers in Gaza, there's no coherent police command and control or people who.

[Yahya]

Are trying to go stop these thieves. There are people looting. People are collaborating with Israel. They're trying to stop these thieves and then they're being killed. Why not the thieves being killed?

[Aidan]

Hamas, literally, my brother is bringing in con brought in when he could, convoys of trucks and many other NGOs that I'm in touch with. They were literally sending their thugs to attack these trucks with the videos, with all the documentation that is available for the entire world to see. But this is what I mean by the bigotry of low expectation is that nothing that Hamas does, whether it be how are we okay with the taking of women and children and the elderly as hostages on October 7th is literally okay and celebrated as a legitimate act of resistance. What we saw on October 7 and the dragging of people's bodies in the streets, that was barbaric behavior that Hamas carried out and it tainted.

[William]

This is.

[Aidan]

So I'm speaking out not because I want to please the Zionist or to please Israelis. I'm speaking out because that's not my Gaza, that's not my people. I'm speaking out because it's against my values and the values that I know many Gazans hold. And that's where I just.

[Yahya]

So what do you think of the Israeli soldiers literally raping Palestinian hostages on video? And it's out on video. And then the people protested that they.

[Aidan]

Have that right to do that. Despicable, disgusting. I have spoken out again.

[Yahya]

You're very critical of the oppressed again. You know what I mean? I feel like you need to have this.

[Aidan]

I just said, I just told you.

[Yahya]

But you need to have the same energy with the people who are killing and occupying us.

[Dana]

You know, that's time.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Thank you.

[Aidan]

Thank you very much. This experience was very Unique and very eye opening in that it took me out of not just my comfort zone, but out of a lot of the audiences.

[Yahya]

I think Ahmed is a smart guy. There's a lot of things him and I agree on, actually. But it's just I disagree with how he's going about his solution. I think he's not holding the occupier as accountable as he should be.

[Aidan]

Of course Israel committed horrendous crimes against the Palestinian people, historically and contemporarily, that goes without saying. But to not acknowledge that October 7th was a genuine, horrendous act of terrorism, that does not represent Palestinian values. I think that harms us, obviously.

[Summer]

I was super impressed with my Palestinian brothers and sisters. Summer Dr. Ahmed William. I would love to give kudos to the non Palestinians who were brave enough to go up against somebody that has such polarizing views, especially after he made such an abhorrent comment, since he loved that word, that they sucked the oxygen out of the movement.

[Aidan]

It's entirely legitimate and necessary to have non Palestinian allies. What is most unfortunate, however, however, is speaking over Palestinians with different perspectives and quite frankly, being extraordinarily disrespectful.

[Ahmed Al Hatib]

I'm not here to be the spokesperson for Palestinians, but I am here to oppose settler colonialism.

[Yahya]

You know, this is complete disaster, catastrophe, genocide. It's right in front of our own eyes and it's being live streamed. And I'm tired of seeing kids in pieces and kids with limbs and being orphaned.

[Dana]

At the end of the day, what's been done has been done unfairly, unfortunately. But let's talk steps to stop this. And one of those tangible steps is putting pressure on our government here to stop sending billions of our tax dollars over there.

[Dr. Ahmed Sobo]

Many people say, oh, it's complicated. No, it's not complicated. It's very, very simple. There are people who are being mistreated, occupied, brutally killed. We just need to stop that. And we have, as Americans, we have the power to do that.

[Aidan]

The solution, in my view, instead entails a rejection of violence, a recognition that Hamas is not a legitimate representation of the Palestinian people, an understanding that the Israeli government has done horrible actions against the Palestinian people and that there needs to be a change in Israel. And I believe that is entirely achievable. Don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever.

[Eli]

You get your podcasts so that you.

[Aidan]

Don'T miss an episode.

[William]

And if you want to watch the.

[Aidan]

Video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.