Surrounded – Allie Beth Stuckey vs. 25 Liberal Christians

Jubilee Media | October 12, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of "Surrounded" features conservative Christian commentator and author Allie Beth Stuckey as the lone debater facing twenty-five liberal Christians. The focus: intense, nuanced, and civil debate around contentious issues including LGBTQ+ inclusion, biblical interpretation, abortion, empathy, progressivism in Christianity, and the church's impact on LGBTQ+ individuals. The format is dynamic, with each challenger engaging Allie in one-on-one debate, as peers vote out and rotate in new speakers. The episode promises to forgo echo chambers in favor of bridging empathy, challenging assumptions, and anchoring conversations in both biblical exegesis and lived experience.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Biblical Marriage & LGBTQ+ Inclusion

[02:27–05:22, 06:57–13:10]

• Allie's Claim: The Bible defines marriage only as a union between one man and one woman, rooted in creation (Genesis 1:27, Matthew 19:4-5, Ephesians 5), and this model reflects Christ's relationship with the church.

  • Quote (Allie, 03:38):
    “Marriage is not only rooted in creation...earthly marriage and gender designations speak to an eternal reality that is fixed and cannot be changed. Two men cannot do that, and two women can't do that.”

• Liberal Rebuttal: Challengers questioned the argument through:

  • Polygamy in the Bible: Noting patriarchs like David and Solomon had multiple wives. (07:01–08:16)
  • Biblical Prescriptions vs. Descriptions: "The Bible also describes polygamy and incest. Does that mean it’s prescribed?" (07:15–08:24)
  • Contextualization: Emphasis that marriage as "one man, one woman" was not culturally available at the time.
  • Scriptural Literalism: Discussion on reading Genesis literally or archetypally; some rabbis and scholars read these texts as metaphor (21:21–22:31).
  • Queer Christians & Virtue: Several participants highlighted the spiritual "fruit" (love, patience, etc.) evident in queer Christians (19:03–20:35).

2. Biblical Condemnation of Homosexuality

[12:26–18:44]

• Allie's Defense: Argues that both the Old (Leviticus) and New Testaments (Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6) consistently frame homosexual acts as sinful, with references to "natural" and "unnatural" relations.

  • Quote (Allie, 13:10): “Homosexuality is condemned in multiple places... we can't say homosexual relationships are ever talked about in any positive or holy sense throughout Scripture.”

• Liberal Counterpoints:

  • Translation Issues: The term "homosexuality" itself didn't exist until the 1800s and interpretations of Greek words (arsenokoitai, malakoi) are contested (15:09–16:50).
  • Contextual Arguments: Many condemnations in scripture pertain to pederasty, prostitution, or idolatrous ritual rather than consensual same-sex relationships.
  • Romans 1 as Rhetoric: Argued that Paul's condemnation in Romans sets up a rhetorical trap for religious readers in Romans 2 (13:10–13:35).
  • Broader Lens: Emphasis that what Christ “prescribes” is love and commitment, not sexual orientation.

3. Abortion: Sin, Morality, and Legal Standing

[23:53–46:50]

• Allie's Claim: Abortion is defined as the intentional killing of a human in the womb and is a "grave moral evil".

  • Quote (Allie, 24:27):
    "We can agree that abortion is the intentional killing of a human inside the womb.”

• Challenges to the Claim:

  • Science & Development: Liberals argued that most abortions occur before pain receptors develop, challenging the idea that early abortions are “violent”. Allie responded that moral value doesn’t depend on capacity for pain (29:03–30:22).
  • Biblical Ambiguity: References to Numbers 5 and Exodus 21 highlighted ambiguity in biblical attitudes toward fetal personhood and miscarriage (39:47–41:38).
  • Social Justice: The argument that denying abortion access disproportionately harms marginalized women and perpetuates cycles of poverty and incarceration (44:18–45:13).
  • Personal Beliefs & Legislation: Discussion whether laws should enforce personal Christian convictions (43:25–43:46).

• Nuance on Miscarriage & Killing:

  • Quote (Katrina, 40:07):
    “If she has a miscarriage... the man has to pay only a fine. But if there's further harm [to the woman], it's life for life, eye for eye... In that law, the unborn child was not considered murder.”

4. Empathy: Virtue, Vice, or Both in Christian Practice?

[46:53–69:49]

• Allie's Claim: Empathy, understood as being "in someone’s feelings," can be toxic and lead to sin if it causes us to affirm or excuse what God calls sinful.

  • Quote (Allie, 47:03): "Empathy literally means to be in someone's feelings... Empathy can be toxic and lead to sin."

• Challenger Perspectives:

  • Empathy as Christlike: Several objected, arguing that Christ’s incarnation and compassion were radical acts of empathy and that understanding others is crucial to love (47:28–49:11).

  • Empathy vs. Love: Debate centered on distinction between empathy, sympathy, compassion, and love; Allie maintains love is the biblical imperative, not empathy as such (54:23–61:00).

  • Empathy in Pastoral Care: Empathy can help, but shouldn’t override biblical truth; “true empathy is caring but doesn’t necessarily mean affirmation” (53:41).

  • Potential Risks: Participants agreed that empathy can feed into poor decisions if untethered from virtue, but objected to labeling empathy itself as “toxic” (60:33–63:52).

  • Notable Challenger Quote (John, 64:14):
    “What we're suffering from right now is a massive lack of empathy for each other. We’re being fed algorithms ... we don't look each other in the eyes and feel for one another.”

5. Progressivism vs. Christianity

[71:26–91:25]

• Allie's Definition: Progressivism is the belief that morality and truth evolve with culture, which she argues is fundamentally at odds with the biblical claim that God and moral truth do not change (Hebrews 13:8).

  • Quote (Allie, 71:41):
    “Progressivism is the belief that morality and truth evolve with culture and the human experience.”

• Liberal Rebuttals:

  • Jesus as Progressive: Some argued that, as a reformer, Jesus challenged the status quo and ushered in moral progress. (76:51–77:42)
  • Scriptural Authority & Humility: “None of us are infallible; we must approach scripture with humility and context, not proof-texting” (72:39–75:31).
  • Authority of Interpretation: Allie emphasizes that submission to scripture is key, while challengers posit that spirit, reason, and social progress also play a role (83:10–86:32).
  • On Slavery and Evolving Morality: The debate extends into how scriptural interpretation allowed for slavery, and how rationale, context, and spiritual growth have shaped progress (87:03–90:29).

6. The Church’s Condemnation of Same-Sex Relationships

[92:07–101:44]

• Challenger (Gilbert): Outlined the mental health crisis among gay Christians, emphasizing that the expectation of lifelong celibacy leads to profound suffering.

  • Quote (Gilbert, 92:25): “Gay kids are 8 to 12 times more likely to commit suicide, especially if they come from religious homes... It's about more than just sex; it’s about love, how we’re wired.”

• Allie’s Response: Empathized with the difficulty but argued all “disordered desires” must be denied for Christ; the call to carry one’s cross is universal.

  • Maintains that “holy sexuality” as described in scripture is always between a man and woman—but acknowledges the personal difficulty for those called to deny same-sex relationships.

    • Quote (Allie, 95:07): “He asks us to do really difficult things...take up a cross and to carry it. All of us have a feeling that is incongruent with scripture.”

• Orientation vs. Behavior: Sharp disagreement on whether “gay” is reducible just to behavior; Allie insists orientation does not confer moral permission, while Gilbert argues it’s intrinsic and can't be changed (97:02–97:48).

• Sin, Love, and Law: The conversation shifts to how “sin” and “love” are defined, biblical contexts for “abomination,” and how modern science and psychology intersect with faith.

7. Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Marriage on earth is actually a reflection of an eternal reality. … Only one man and one woman can do that.”
  — Allie, 03:38

• “If I am a gay person, you believe I should be celibate… Is that fair to her?”
  — Challenger, 05:55

• “All of us, every single Christian, in one way or another, is called to take up our cross, deny our flesh, and follow Christ.”
  — Allie, 05:27

• “You’re proving the point—the Bible, Solomon had a lot of wives, too. More wives, more problems.”
  — Allie, 07:48

• “Abortion is the intentional killing of a human inside the womb.”
  — Allie, 24:27

• “You keep talking about and keep postulating that just because of these descriptive parts of the Bible, that’s prescriptive… Homosexuality is outlawed?”
  — Challenger, 18:12

• “Empathy can be toxic and lead to sin.”
  — Allie, 47:03

• “What we’re suffering from right now is a massive lack of empathy for each other. We’re being fed algorithms… we don’t look each other in the eyes and feel for one another.”
  — John, 64:14

• “Progressivism is the belief that morality and truth evolve with culture and the human experience.”
  — Allie, 71:41

• “I would love my friends across the aisle to have more humility... I am certainly not right 100% of the way. And when I get up and preach, I say that to them.”
  — Danny, 74:56

• “Gay kids are 8 to 12 times more likely to commit suicide, especially if they come from religious homes… it’s about more than just sex; it’s about love, how we’re wired.”
  — Gilbert, 92:25

Notable Exchanges & Takeaways

The Value of Structured Debate

Despite sharp disagreements, most participants were “civil while not backing down off of their point,” as one participant reflected. Several acknowledged the rarity and value of this kind of structured, respectful dialogue on deeply personal issues.

Empathy as Fault Line

Empathy itself became not just a lens for discussion but a battleground—how much is too much, is empathy a virtue or can it veer into the vice of empty affirmation?

Interpretation Stakes

Who gets to interpret scripture? Are ancient texts fixed or must they be reexamined in the light of new knowledge, cultural change, and social progress? The episode wrestles with these foundational questions at every turn.

Lasting Division, Underlying Unity

While consensus was not achieved, several speakers closed with hope for greater unity ("I think there’s more in common than not") and a call to "truth and love coexist[ing]" (104:09).

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Biblical Marriage & LGBTQ+ Inclusion: 02:27–05:22, 06:57–13:10
• LGBTQ Condemnation & Biblical Exegesis: 12:26–18:44
• Abortion & Personhood: 23:53–46:50
• Empathy Debate: 46:53–69:49
• Progressivism & Christianity: 71:26–91:25
• Church's Harm to LGBTQ+ Christians: 92:07–101:44

Final Reflections

This episode exemplifies what "Surrounded" promises: real, rigorous engagement across divides, high emotional stakes, deep faith, and no easy answers. Each side sharpened its argument—clarifying not only what they believe, but why, challenging listeners to consider how we can embody both conviction and compassion in a pluralistic world.

“I hope to show you that truth and love can and should coexist.”
— Allie Beth Stuckey (104:09)

For full context, audio and video versions are available via Jubilee and your preferred podcast platform.