Amanda Seales vs 25 Black Conservatives

Summary

Surrounded – Amanda Seales vs 25 Black Conservatives

Podcast: Surrounded (Jubilee Media)
Episode: Amanda Seales vs 25 Black Conservatives
Date: August 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

This special installment of Surrounded features Amanda Seales—a comedian, actress, and outspoken black radical—sitting in the center of a bold social experiment: debating with 25 black conservatives, one-on-one, on some of the most controversial subjects facing the black community in America. The theme is direct confrontation of opposing viewpoints, with no echo chambers allowed, aiming to challenge assumptions, generate connection, and seek understanding.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Reparations: Justice or Distraction?

(02:12–07:58, 08:05–18:48)

• Amanda’s Position: Reparations for black Americans are both just and necessary, grounded in historical injustice and “act of repair.” She expands the definition of reparations beyond cash payments to include redress for redlining, massacres, and systemic exclusion from property and education.

  • “Reparations are an act of repair—they are an effort to say, ‘Our bad, we see you now.’” (03:16)

• Conservative Responses:

  • Reparations are impractical, unlikely, and potentially divisive. Several participants argue they would not address root problems like educational gaps or “black-on-black” violence.
  • Multiple speakers highlight that “hard work” and individual merit have historically been the way out of poverty—questioning the efficacy and fairness of reparations.
  • Some draw comparisons between black Americans and other groups, such as Jews, Japanese internment victims, and Chinese immigrants, questioning why black Americans are “still talking about reparations” instead of building self-sufficiency.

• Memorable Exchange:

  • Amanda challenges statistics about black crime rates and systemic issues, arguing that stats—and the systems that create them—can be manipulated.
  • Conservative: “Ben Carson...those are the types we should emulate.”
  • Amanda: “King Von happens because of a system that produces both King Von and Ben Carson.” (12:02)

• Notable Quote:

  • Amanda: “Slavery lasted for 400 years. It hasn’t even been 400 years since slavery. Should we only fight for a quarter of that time for repair?” (07:01)

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Systemic Racism: Fact or Excuse?

(09:00–18:48, 42:51–58:21, 74:08–80:06)

• Amanda: Systemic racism is embedded in history and current policy: from redlining, uneven school funding, the criminal justice system, to housing market biases. Efforts to overcome racial barriers without acknowledging this ongoing legacy are incomplete.

  • “Redlining absolutely exists. Stating it doesn’t exist doesn’t make it go away.” (10:59)
  • She distinguishes between reparations (for social harm) and remunerations (for stolen labor/wealth).

• Conservative Arguments:

  • Several participants claim systems are no longer inherently racist, citing personal family advancement, black presidents, and the success of non-black immigrants as “proof” of American opportunity.
  • Others state current disparities are due to broken family structure, lack of accountability, victim mentality, and glorification of violence in popular black culture—not ongoing systemic oppression.

• Key Exchange:

  • When Amanda shares data showing persistent discrimination (e.g. home appraisal bias), conservatives respond that bias is more about individual racism within institutions, not the system itself.
  • Amanda: “You can change the law all day, but if you don’t change the culture, it persists.” (51:38)

• Notable Quotes:

  • Conservative: “Our ancestors weren’t asking for handouts. They wanted equal opportunity. We had a black president—America isn’t racist.” (15:01)
  • Amanda: “Harriet Tubman’s greatness was not to proclaim victimhood, but to literally save family from slavery.” (16:11)

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Black-on-Black Crime: Pathology or Policy Failure?

(23:39–42:24, 58:30–69:47)

• Amanda’s Thesis: High rates of violence are driven by disinvestment and overpolicing—not inherent cultural pathology. She connects “crime” to poverty, systemic neglect, and trauma, not cultural deficiency.

  • “When we lived in our own communities, we policed them, and the stats looked different.” (25:50)
  • “Statistics be lying all the time.” (27:19)

• Conservative Counterpoints:

  • Many cite “lack of accountability,” absentee fathers, “toxicity” in black culture and music, and glorification of violence as causes.
  • Others are deeply personal—sharing stories of family members killed or robbed by black men, arguing for greater “self-responsibility.”
  • “You’ve got to clean your own house before you go looking outside.” (35:04)
  • “Look at rap—you glorify violence.” (36:45)

• Notable Quotes:

  • Amanda: “Overpolicing and underinvestment cause problems, not just personal choices.”
  • Amanda: “We like to start at the branches of the tree, never at the root.” (71:13)

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DEI, Affirmative Action, Identity, and Opportunity

(54:00–58:21, 69:52–71:26, 74:08–80:06)

• On Representation and Equity:

  • Conservatives critique DEI and affirmative action as “racism in reverse,” claiming “merit” should be the only criterion and that “race conscious admissions” are discriminatory.
  • Amanda clarifies: “DEI is about expanding the pool of qualified candidates, not lowering standards.”

• Broader Argument:

  • Amanda insists that opportunity is not equally available, and individual stories of success don’t erase systemic barriers.

• Race as a Social Construct:

  • Amanda pushes back on the “biological” concept of race, asserting it was constructed to justify caste systems.
  • “Race is not something you are—it’s something that was put upon you.” (77:35)

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Political Loyalty and Black Identity

(81:59–91:11)

• Conservative Claim: Black people should walk away from the Democratic Party, which takes them for granted and offers little change beyond election cycle pageantry.

  • “Every single cycle it happens—they use us, forget us, and remember us four years later.” (82:51)
  • Expresses pain at being called “Uncle Tom” or “coon” for stepping outside expected political allegiance.

• Amanda’s Response:

  • Fully agrees but asserts neither party truly serves the interests of black Americans.
  • “Bipartisan systems that don’t even allow us to choose our candidates aren’t for the people.” (85:12)
  • Amanda calls all black Americans to build unity and coalition across divides, including across party lines—with love, not statistics.
  • “We need to let both parties go and find a way to move forward together as our own nation.” (90:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If they keep pouring shit into my house and I’m cleaning it, why can’t I do both—clean my house and bar the windows?”
  —Amanda Seales (35:04)

• “Slavery lasted 400 years. It’s not even been 400 since. Should we only fight for a quarter of that time for repair?”
  —Amanda Seales (07:01)

• “Harriet Tubman was literally saving her family and others from slavery.”
  —Amanda Seales (16:11)

• “DEI is about expanding the pool, not lowering the standard.”
  —Amanda Seales (71:26)

• “Race is not something you are. Race is something that was bestowed and put upon you.”
  —Amanda Seales (77:35)

• “We have to acknowledge divide and conquer. Otherwise, we’re having a pointless conversation.”
  —Amanda Seales (58:30)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 02:12 – Reparations: What are they, who should get them, and do they work
• 09:00 – Debates over systemic racism and its legacy/effects
• 17:00 – Intersections of culture, family, “toxic” narratives
• 23:39 – Exploring black-on-black crime, policy impact vs. individual choices
• 42:51 – Systemic racism as lived reality
• 54:00 – DEI, meritocracy, and opportunity
• 64:00 – Black conservatism vs. the needs of the working class
• 81:59 – Should black Americans remain loyal to any political party?
• 90:37 – Conclusion: Calls for coalition, respect, and mutual understanding

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Tone and Language

The conversation is raw, emotional, and often contentious. Amanda Seales maintains a tone that is passionate, assertive, and educational, frequently challenging the panel’s assumptions with historical context and systemic analysis. The conservatives are equally passionate, advocating for self-accountability, merit, hard work, and sometimes drawing from personal pain. Exchanges can become heated, with frequent interruptions, but there are moments of unexpected agreement and vulnerability.

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Takeaway

This episode is a microcosm of broader black political discourse in America: deeply divided, sometimes strident, occasionally finding common ground, and consistently searching for justice, dignity, and forward movement—inside, and outside, the partisan frame.

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For Further Engagement

• Watch the full video on Jubilee’s YouTube for nonverbal context and the energy in the room.
• Subscribe to Surrounded wherever you get your podcasts.

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Transcript

[A]

Black culture is toxic. And let's not. Let's get on the fact that there's no father.

[B]

So white culture is.

[A]

Let's get. Let's get.

[B]

Let's stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. We all deserve a right to exist. And I shouldn't have to earn my right to exist. And that is what capitalism is. What makes you think that you have to earn it? That's what I'm saying. I don't feel that way. You do have to earn it. You do earn it. Yes, you do. That is why we are canalizing the poor. Well, here's what you all keep doing. You keep interrupting me when I'm talking and you don't want to hear the point that I'm gonna make, the point that you're. And yet you want me to respect your point. And that's not how a debate works. So I show you respect. Give me. I knew I was going to be surrounded by ignorance, but damn. Let's go.

[A]

From Jubilee Media, this is the Surrounded podcast where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. In the center today is Amanda Seals. She's a writer, producer, actress and comedian, as well as a black liberal.

[B]

And she will be facing 25 black conservatives. She will debate them one on one until they are voted out by their.

[A]

Peers and replaced by someone new.

[B]

Let's get into it.

[A]

You say you'll never join the Navy, never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit or break the sound barrier. Joining the Navy sounds crazy. Saying never actually is. Learn [e-mail], america's Navy forged by the sea. Support for this podcast and the following message comes from America's Navy. The Navy offers new graduates hands on training and experience in careers like computer science, aviation and medicine.

[B]

Plus education.

[A]

And sign on bonuses. Parents, help your grads start their career [e-mail] Greetings.

[B]

I am Amanda Seales, widely known as a comedian, an actress, a disruptor, an annoying person on the Internet who always tells the truth. And I am now an artistic intellectual who commits myself to making art that educates. And today I am surrounded by by 20 black conservatives. My first claim is it is undeniable that reparations are just and necessary.

[A]

All right, Reparations, fair. Necessary. My question would be, who's going to get it? Why would they get it? And how long are we going to sit here focusing on trying to get reparations? It's been how many years since slavery? 150 years? 1865. Whenever there is a real thing that this country wants to do, they do it. Stop Asian hate. Okay, there's a problem with the Asian hate. Let's draft a bill, sign it, and it's done. Anything needs to be done is done with us. It's to carry the dangle in front of us that they don't really want to do. And it's not going to help. We need education. Oh, it's not going to help? No, it's not. We need education. Getting a check from the government is not going to do that. And we need proper education. A lot of us go to these institutions where we're not really prepared, we're not really focused, and we don't get things that will help us in the real world. So if you want to help black people, a check from the government, from our tax dollars is going to get raised. Because let's be clear, everybody in here is black. We all American, we all got to pay taxes. It'll go to that. So I don't really see how this is going to help us at all.

[B]

Okay, well, first I'll start with. It will help on even just a moral level. The reality is that the United States has become very comfortable with the fact that it does not consider black people equal. And it shows that in many ways that I'm sure we will discuss over the course of today. But ultimately, there has not been a committed, concerted effort to shifting the mindset around the use of black people as a labor force in this nation back when it was slavery. Now in the voice, in the use of slavery as slave labor in prisons. So on a basic cultural level, reparations are an act of repair. They are an effort to say, our bet. We see you now. We have seen that done with Japanese folks who were put in internment camps. We have seen that done with Jewish folks. We have seen that done even in the case of slave owners who received reparations when it comes to the use of tax dollars to pay reparations, and this is going to come up a lot today, it's a matter of values. For me, my value system circulates around the fact that I think that as a community, we should all be engaged in repair for our community. So I don't think there should be any problem with there being tax dollars spent at repairing consistent efforts that have been made to impede black people. So the reparations you're talking about are not just related to slavery. There's reparations that have been discussed all over this nation in different communities, as it relates to particular massacres, as it relates to redlining and the impediment of black people to earn wealth by having property. There's been impediments in various ways that can be repaired. And I want to also just add, there's reparations that are considered a cash payment from a government. There's also the version of reparations that shows up in how funds are applicated to specific groups of people. So there's multiple ways in which what you're stating cannot happen could very well happen.

[A]

Okay, now, as far as the money going towards certain things is going to help us, look at Baltimore public Schools, they get, I think, the third most money per pupil in the US of A. Like $15,000 per student. But yet the majority of the population that comes from that environment can't read. They're illiterate. So we're dumping money on the situation. Yes, but yet we're not getting the results we should get from it. Money's not going to help the thing. We need to just focus on what we need to focus on. As far as black people being labor force of this country, what else are we doing? We got 25% of us on some kind of government assistance. One out of every three black men will go to jail. We got to do something. We got to work with our hands, work with tools, do something because we're not doing much of anything. And also, one more piece, one more piece here. Reparations again, always anchoring in front of us. Never going to happen as long as you've been living. As long as I've been living. As long as everybody been living. They say we need it, we need it, we need it. And it never gets done. One more piece.

[B]

You just said one more piece, then you adding another one.

[A]

I promise I'm a land of plane. I'm a land the plane. I promise. Reparations is a thing. Like I said, it's a carrot to dangle in front of us. They're never really going to get it done. And if it was going to get done, it would have already been done. It's just something that they're using to try and make us stay Democrat. That's what I wanted to say.

[B]

Well, Democrats are not doing reparations either. This is nonpartisan. This is black partisan, baby. Okay, well, this is not partisan. Who do we vote for?

[A]

Who do we vote for? 90% of the time, there's no. There's no incentive to be.

[B]

To be quite honest, you're not talking to a Democrat. You're talking to a radical.

[A]

Okay, but who.

[B]

Let's let's do we. Let's land this plane very quickly.

[A]

Who do we vote for?

[B]

Let's land this plane quickly.

[A]

Who do we vote for?

[B]

To a radical, not a Democrat.

[A]

Okay, you are your own person. Let me vote for.

[B]

Now, I don't know what they told you, but if they told you that cutting me off is how I'm going to get clicks. Stop it now. No, no, no. That's not how we're going to interview.

[A]

We have a debate.

[B]

A debate does not require continuously cutting somebody off.

[A]

Okay, no problem.

[B]

Now, I do want to state this. You're stating things as it relates to how money is not fixing a problem without acknowledging the fact that the problem doesn't exist in a vacuum and that there are so many other factors that are determining how that money is getting spent to impede it from actually fixing a problem. You can put all the money into Baltimore Public Schools you want, but if you are also putting all this money into policing communities that are not getting resources, then you are also creating your own conundrum. The other part of this is that when you're saying they, you know, the they is a broad context. And the last part of this that I will say is that you keep saying, they're dangling this in our face. They're dangling in this our face. Slavery lasted for 400 years. It hasn't even been 400 years since slavery. So should we be only fighting for a quarter of the time to get repair? All right, I'm so sorry. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[A]

Okay. My name is Matt Nuclear.

[B]

Hello, Matt. Matt Nuclear.

[A]

Matt Nuclear.

[B]

Yes. Matt Nuclear. Give me a better handshake than that. Let's do it.

[A]

I appreciate having this conversation with a beautiful black woman like yourself. This is nice. Beautiful arena here. I disagree that reparations are necessary. I think the most important thing that's necessary right now for the black community would be the stopping of violence, especially black on black violence. I don't see how operations are going to solve anything. You can give everyone here, like a $50,000 check, especially people that are in the streets who are committing violent crimes, consistently a $50,000 check. It's not going to fix anything. It's not going to increase the median household income in the next 10 years by 10% or 20%. For example, we have the Chinese Exclusion act of 1882. We prevented Chinese people from getting citizenship and even entering the country. We discriminated against them and basically put them under apartheid even here in the United States. Yet they have the highest median household income. How is that possible? How come they don't complain and feel entitled consistently to beg for reparations and beg for this when they are killing each other 90% of the time, which is the rate that black people kill each other according to the FBI.

[B]

Oh, young Matt.

[A]

Yet white people are the oppressors.

[B]

I'm not sure where your education came from, but they lied to you.

[A]

Stats don't lie, though.

[B]

Statistics lie all the time. So let's start there. Particularly when the statistics are coming from these sources that gain from the statistics being shown a different way. So it's. If you're gonna start your argument on stats don't lie, you've already lost the argument. They lie. They lie all the time. 1. Comparing Chinese people who are immigrants that made a choice to come to the United States and comparing the continued effort of black people to ground themselves in a nation that continues to make impediments for them to show and live and exist in their true citizenship is a false equivalency.

[A]

I don't believe that happens at all. No one here is in.

[B]

Are you acting right now?

[A]

Do you really believe that I'm telling the truth? There's no systemic racism that I've experienced here in America. What system is racist? I think the only racism we've actually seen recently, systemic racism that we've seen is the application of systemic racism against white people. The University of Western Washington, for example, has been trying to segregate dormitories using black only dormitories because black people feel safer amongst each other, but they're more likely to kill each other than white people, however they kill them. That's just the truth. You have King Von rapping about killing other black men. Why should I think that the white man is the oppressor when black men are more likely to kill me?

[B]

Oh, my God, this is scary. You need to think about me as your mama. Do not talk to me in that fashion. So let's check that now.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Okay. So on a basic level, we have to understand that systemic racism is grounded in the realities that black people have not been considered an equal human being in this country since its onset. So there's simply no way to make the argument that there isn't systemic racism. And we have seen in very clear ways the system operate in an organically racist way. Do not cut me off when we talk about systemic racism. We can start with even the fact that redlining, which was implemented to discriminate black communities. Are you shaking your head that redlining doesn't exist?

[A]

No, I'm saying I don't think it really existed at all.

[B]

I mean.

[A]

No, I don't think so at all.

[B]

So it does exist. And stating that it doesn't exist doesn't make it no longer exist. Redlining absolutely exists. It is not a. It is not something that's being made up. It's an empirical fact. And there are realities that exist because of redlining. We know that school systems are related to the way that property taxes are affecting the school systems. If a school system is not getting the same property value as the property taxes allow it, then it's not going to have the same efficacy at allowing for students to be able to get what they deserve. When we talk about systemic racism, we have to acknowledge that these private prisons are literally built based on the test scores of school students in third grade. So if you are literally building prisons with the onset of. Okay, if these people are not reaching a certain reading level, then we know that they're going to go down a prison industrial pipeline where we can use their free labor, then how is that not systemic? And if you. And if you want to stop them.

[A]

From entering prisons, how are you going.

[B]

To stop people from entering prison?

[A]

If your goal.

[B]

If your goal is to get them into prison?

[A]

Sure. Make them try to be more like Ben Carson than be like King Von. That's very, very simple.

[B]

So how does King Von happen? King Von, hold on, let me land the plane. We're talking about reparations. And what you're doing is actually just trying to get this conversation off the facts. And the fact is, reparations are just and necessary because on a basic level, black people built this country, and the country continues to thrive off of the labor that black people put into this country. And it would behoove you, young man, to really understand the way that your ancestors put blood, sweat, and tears into this nation that is still living off of those blood, sweat, and tears. And let me also add, there are reparations and then there is remunerations. Do you know the difference?

[A]

Yes, but can I finish one point that I wanted to say? Ben Carson. Ben Carson's cousins were killed at a very young.

[B]

I'm so sorry.

[A]

You've been voted out by the majority.

[B]

Please return to your seat. I hope some of y' all are acting. I really do. I. I really. We in la. We in la. And I. I hope some people in here are acting. Oh, what's that on your chain?

[A]

Uh, this is a coin from Israel.

[B]

Lord have mercy.

[A]

Yes, you gotta go.

[B]

That's a choice that you are making for yourself.

[A]

Yes. The thing with the whole reparations thing and I don't know, we're probably close to the same age, so maybe you can't call me.

[B]

How old are you?

[A]

I'm 32.

[B]

I am 44.

[A]

Oh, really? Oh, you look young.

[B]

Thank you. That's what water and keeping stress out of your life will do.

[A]

Really. Liberal positions are real stressful, by the way.

[B]

I wouldn't know. I'm not a liberal. Carry on.

[A]

Well, most liberal. Most. It's the liberal position because conservatives believe in hard work. We believe in going to work and working for what you got. Not asking for handouts from people who never had slaves. Some of the people that you're asking to take for money for from never had slaves. And let's talk about the fact there were also black people that had slaves. So if you want to talk about that, how is that fair? If I'm a white person and my family fall on the side of the Union, Why should I have to pay for slaves when this whole country was never all racist? Half of the founding, some of the founding fathers were abolitionists and they believed they hated slavery. And they actually put things in a Declaration of Independence and things too, because they believed that there'll be a future where there would be a black president one day or that there would be people in leadership that were black. There was people in the north who helped with the Underground Railroad and fought in the fought with the Union. So why is that fair for people who never had slaves, who fought against slavery to have to pay for people that had slaves?

[B]

One, from my understanding, you are more interested in preserving the fairness of those who didn't have slaves than the fairness of those who are the descendants of slaves. That is priority to you than finding a fair way to accommodate those who have been the descendant of slaves.

[A]

Well, our ancestors wasn't asking for handouts. They were asking for equal opportunity. And we have equal opportunity in this country. We had a black president, just in case you didn't know. We had a black president and we had a black vice president. I mean, I think she was black. They said she was black. I don't know. So we had a black president and you know who voted for that black man? White people. Because you can't win a popular election in this country without white people. So Barack Obama is the product of white people. So let's get off this thing where, oh, America is so racist. What's making America so racist is people that continue to talk about Racism and continue to focus on racism instead of focusing on unity and bringing our country forward. People that have these liberal mindset are infecting our communities, black people and making us victims and not victors. I refuse to embrace a victim mentality because that's not what our grandparents and Harriet Tubman and those people fall for. They fought for.

[B]

Do not bring up Harriet Tubman's name in vain, baby, please. They said the Lord's name in vain. Harriet Tubman.

[A]

The Lord's name.

[B]

Harriet Tubman was literally. Literally saving her family and others from slavery. Yeah.

[A]

You know who helped her? White people.

[B]

You know who helped her?

[A]

They were on the Underground Railroad. Come on in.

[B]

No. You know who helped her?

[A]

Come on in.

[B]

No. You know who helped her?

[A]

God and her people.

[B]

People who benefit from white supremacy. One of the things. That's a lie.

[A]

White supremacy is a lie.

[B]

No, sir, that's a lie. I mean, if that were not the case, then we wouldn't see the continued effort of colonialism and white people placing themselves in positions of power. You know why they're in position of power?

[A]

Because their culture, black culture is toxic. The black culture is toxic. We have produced a culture that is toxic.

[B]

And let's not.

[A]

Let's get on the fact that there's no father.

[B]

So white culture.

[A]

Let's get. Let's get.

[B]

Let's talk about that. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop.

[A]

Let's talk.

[B]

Stop, stop, stop, stop.

[A]

Let's talk about that.

[B]

None of this is going to work if y' all are just going to sit here and make up shit we have. It's not going to work. No, it's a.

[A]

You're has to be.

[B]

In fact, you're.

[A]

You're. You're putting off emotional liberalism right now.

[B]

You're not putting off emotional liberalism. You're putting off unfounded lies.

[A]

That's what y' all do. Y' all start saying misinformation. Remember they did the misinformation thing all summer where everything conservative.

[B]

They said misinformation around your neck of an apartheid nation that actively wants to harm black people and not. What about the non Jewish people? Let me bring it back. Let me bring it back.

[A]

Selling black people.

[B]

That was not happening in the context that you're saying.

[A]

And they were selling their own people.

[B]

Let's bring it back.

[A]

Black people still sell their own people today, too.

[B]

But I don't know if I'm gonna last.

[A]

We're selling our own people.

[B]

I don't know if I'm gonna last. It probably won't last.

[A]

With me.

[B]

I won't. Because your ignorance is so overwhelming.

[A]

Liberals. Y' all start name calling when y'.

[B]

All get defeated in an argument. You won't have an argument because you keep cutting me off.

[A]

Well, that's fine. If they don't let me cut off.

[B]

You didn't make your point.

[A]

I made my point.

[B]

You haven't made your point. And let me just tell you about your point. You started off saying, we believe in hard work. Yeah. And we believe in being compensated.

[A]

Reparations is not though. Reparations is not hard work. It's stealing. It's Robin Hood.

[B]

You said you believe in hard work and you believe in being compensated for hard work. Were slaves compensated for their work?

[A]

They weren't compensated for their work. But why should people who are sitting at home playing video games, smoking marijuana.

[B]

Are you sitting at home playing a video game?

[A]

Are you sitting at home playing a video game? The people that they're wanting reparations.

[B]

Are you sitting at home playing a video game? No. The people that are. I don't know who these people are that you're talking about because the majority of the black community is not sitting at home playing video games.

[A]

The majority of the black people.

[B]

Where are you getting that statistics? Where are you getting.

[A]

Pause, pause.

[B]

You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. I knew I was gonna be surrounded by ignorance, but damn. Let's go. Hello. My hands wet from the. From the bottom. My hands are sweaty. Cause I'm nervous. We both got sweaty hands. Okay. So I just wanted clarity. Cause I think it'd be helpful. You said radical. I wanted just clarity on that. And then also with the reparations, you said it's not just money, it's other things. I just want to know, like, what do you see as like, the grand picture of what would help? The grand picture of what would help? Of reparations. Like, what does that look like to you? Oh, great. Reparations. What reparations looks like to me is a combination of reparations and remunerations. And reparations are about repair for damages that have been caused based on harm. Remunerations is a monetary response to work that has not been paid for. So if you come and paint my house and I don't pay you, you can take me to court and get remunerations for the work that you have done. So we're actually owed both in this nation as black people. And there are incredibly just clear cut records that show the buying and selling and purchasing of slaves the work that was done. Also the intellectual property that was stolen from slaves. Right. Because there was so much inventing that was happening. And there is also quite a bit of other reparations that are being discussed as it relates to property being stolen, as it relates to, again, redlining and the inability for black people to get loans, et cetera. And these impediments being solely based on their race. As far as, like, discrimination. Yes. Like they're being solely based on their race. That not being about anything other than you're black, so you can't. Right. And so when it's very clear cut like that, there are very distinctive responses to that that can be done through a cash payment as well as through measures that are being done to create funds for creating resources and responses like housing, like access to food, access to education, etc. That certain communities have not had access to because of the fallout from these things. And I just had a quick question for clarifying. With the funds, I'm wondering where do you think those should come from? Like, the actual money, like, is that we're raising money, is it taxes? Like, what does that look like? Well, I think what they've been doing with these different reparations committees is they're looking at, all right, well, how much has this city or how much has this town or how much has this country gained from the estimated amount that was stolen from these people? Right? So they're looking at like, what is this wage amount, for instance, like, if you look at, during that time, okay, what was the wage amount that a hired worker would get for this same work? All right, and so we're looking at how was that wage not provided and what is that pool that is being created? And then we're looking at, all right, what, where can that wage come from in terms of how has that wage been applied? So there are spaces where this is very clear. I think the. And I think the last thing that you asked about was the difference between liberal and radical. Yeah, please. Ultimately, the concept of liberalism is really just not Republican. Right. I mean, that's essentially what it's become. I would disagree with that, but I understand that's your stance. There's a very generic concept of what liberalism is in the sense that it's simply saying that I am a part of the bipartisan mind frame, but I am not a Republican. It's the. It's a mindset. It doesn't always show up in action, but it's a mindset that says, you know, I don't support extremes in certain ways or, you know, I want the government to. To show. Show up in certain ways. You know, I know there's a conservative point of view that says there should be less government, but even though it just says that the action is very different. The radical mind state simply is living opposite to our colonizers, which is an imperialist, capitalist mind state. And radical blacks do not believe that that is any way for us to have liberation. Thank you for explaining that. And thank you for being very respectful. We were told to be respectful. We're not your enemies. Thank you, my good.

[A]

Are you feeling more fulfilled now that.

[B]

You'Re back to work? No, I need a vacation.

[A]

See the movie that critics are saying is an awesome look at that crowd pleasing, fist pumping all out brawl of a film.

[B]

Right about that. They're coming after our family. Go fix this.

[A]

Oh my.

[B]

Nobody 2 rated R only in theaters now.

[A]

You say you'll never join the Navy, that you never track storms brewing in.

[B]

The Atlantic.

[A]

And skydiving could never be part of your commute.

[B]

You'd never climb Mount Fuji on a.

[A]

Port visit or fly so fast you.

[B]

Break the sound barrier.

[A]

Joining the Navy sounds crazy.

[B]

Saying never actually is.

[A]

Start your [e-mail], america's Navy forged by the sea.

[B]

My next claim is that black on black crime is a result of underinvestment and over policing.

[A]

So you say that black on black crime is due to underfunding and over policing, essentially. I actually don't necessarily disagree with one of those. I think that however, the government. Who do you think should be responsible for the funding piece of the black community, should that be something that the government should step into or should that be something that we as black people need to handle ourselves? Dr. Jordan Peterson and even Thomas Sowell and several others have stated one thing, that poverty and crime, there's a positive correlation. There's also a positive correlation in the black community of absentee fatherism being one of the root causes leading into criminality. Black males that grew up without a father are 10 times more likely to engage in criminal activity. And so I think one of the.

[B]

Can I put a pin right there and ask you a question?

[A]

Ask me whatever you like.

[B]

What is the root cause of there being less fathers present bad decision making.

[A]

On the part of the fathers. We live in a patriarchal system. Like it or not, men have dominated the socioeconomic, economic and political power of this country and the world since our existence. So our bad decision making, especially when we focus on the black community, is the root cause of fatherlessness.

[B]

What Type of decisions.

[A]

Not marrying the women we decide to lay down and have children with, not being careful with the seeds that we plant in women. No woman can get pregnant without a man planting his seed inside of her. So therefore.

[B]

So it's marriage.

[A]

Well, that's a part of it. Marriage is a part of it. But the true piece that I'm looking at is connectedness between familial units. The black community was at its economically strongest while being at its poorest during the segregation era. Prior to 1968, Dr. Martin Luther King, in his last speech, said that we have an annual income of more than $30 billion a year, which is more than all of the exports of Canada and more or more than all of the exports of the United States and more than the national budget of Canada. That was when we were economically at our poorest, yet 85% of our black children were growing up with a father in the home. There was less black on black crime. There was less disenfranchisement.

[B]

Why was there less black on black crime?

[A]

Because we needed to live together. We had to stick by each other. We had to.

[B]

What was there also less of.

[A]

I'm not sure where you're leading. That's a leading question. I don't like.

[B]

We. You don't like this?

[A]

I don't like leading questions. I like direct stuff.

[B]

So essentially, when we were living in our own communities, we were also policing our own communities. So we were not being used as statistics in the same way to determine how resources were provided to our own communities. When we were going to the government saying, hey, we deserve because we are supposed to be separate but equal, we weren't saying, hey, we want to be with y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

We were essentially saying, we want what you are stating we deserve. And that is what all of the efforts of the civil rights movement has been. It's literally just been to say, you said when we got out of the civil War that we would be considered citizens and all, all citizens should be getting equal access to these things. However, you are actively allowing the Klan to harm us. You are actively alone.

[A]

Who's killed more black people, the klan or us?

[B]

I would like to continue my statement. I let you speak uninterrupted. When we talk about this concept of who is harming us, we are really making a false claim when it comes to black on black crime, as if there isn't white on white crime. There's also this unnecessary effort to try and pathologize black on black crime in a way that you don't Try to pathologize white on white crime. There are white people killing each other every single day. Now, they may be on jet skis in the pictures after they shoot up they whole family, but nonetheless, there are white people killing each other every single day. Now, much of the reason why you may see more numbers in terms of black on black crime are for two reasons. One, the statistics be lying all the time. We have seen this numbers, okay? We just seen this in a real way. So in New Jersey, when you say.

[A]

No, no, no, what numbers can be trusted? Because with the previous speaker, you said.

[B]

I'm about to tell you right now.

[A]

Okay, so your sources can be trusted.

[B]

You can't such numbers. No, I'm literally about to give you an example of numbers not being able to be trusted.

[A]

Okay, talk to me.

[B]

That's what I was doing.

[A]

I'm listening.

[B]

Okay, then, then listen.

[A]

Oh, the. My ears.

[B]

So listen. In New Jersey, they had a statistic that was created by the police department that said, look at how many black people are committing crimes. Look at how crazy this number is. These black people are so exorbitantly violent. Look at this. And then people went and actually matched the names that they were booking with the faces of the actual people incarcerated. And it was proven that they were lying.

[A]

So that's one. Okay, so that's one instance. Hold on. No, no, you're talking to somebody that works as a police dispatcher when I'm not making content. So here's the thing. No, no, you see, well, the truth is, you're about to see the truth if you just gimme a second. Like Trump said, just give me a second. I'm gonna do the weave, but give me a minute.

[B]

Well, here's what you all keep doing. You keep interrupting me when I'm talking, and you don't want to hear the point that I'm gonna make. The point is, and yet you want me to respect your point. And that's not how a debate works. So if you want me to keep getting louder, I will do it. But ultimately, if I show you respect, give me the respect back. I let you talk. I let you make your points. I am countering your points. And my points are just as valid as yours. Even though you got a pocket square and a Church of Christ pin on your chest.

[A]

It's not a Church of Christ.

[B]

Whatever. It's a cross. Same difference. You got an American flag and you think you know something because you a cop and ultimately not a cop dispatcher. There's a difference. It's acab all day over here. So let me make that clear. But let me also add to my point. My point is that you can sit here and blame black people on black people all day long and not acknowledge that we are forced into. You're coming to interrupt me again?

[A]

I haven't even said a word.

[B]

All right, that is flag. So I'm gonna ask you to return to your seat. It's a waste of my time. Y' all just want to be seen. I don't need to be seen. Hello. How are you? I'm Jasmine, the pretty lady. Say less outfit. Thank you. So this is my thing. I think the premise of your question was black on black crime. So I think I'm coming from a place. And I guess my issue is having had my biological father murdered by a black man, having had my cousin shot in the head by a black man. We can talk numbers and statistics and what the people are doing and what the white man is doing and all that, but at the end of the day, I see when my family lives on the south side of Chicago, and I think you and I both can attest to this. And I'm not saying that they're not other factors, but we know that we kill each other at a disproportionate rate than any other race. Now, why we do that and why 6 to 9,000 black men are going to be homicided or killed or whatever by the end of the year annually by other black men. Whereas the likelihood of a black man being killed by a white police officer is less than 150 per year. We know that we kill each other at a higher rate. So I'm not debating that there are not factors at play, but because I've lived the experience as a black woman losing my father to be murdered by a black man walking down the street. I'm sorry to hear that, by the way. No worries. Thank you. But walking down the street in inner cities and different things, knowing that it's more likely that my own brother will rob and rape me than a white man or a white officer. We gotta be real. What's your proximity to white men in the south side of Chicago? Are there even white men around to rob and rape you at the same rate that there are black men? There are white men around at the same rate. There wasn't a lot of black people in there. But then that doesn't justify the fact that we're destroying each other. So even if we get nothing like there, we can agree on that. Ok. Because I feel like a lot of Nothing justifies. I'm not a liberal. I am not alive, I'm not a liberal. Okay, well, I will say that people that sometimes have your stance that are against conservatives, maybe they have this claim that they're making it up, they're making up the numbers. We know that we do that to each other. So I wanna get to the root of the issue. Why are we killing each other? I think the root of the issue is we've lost our values and we've lost our resilience as black people. We sit there and we talk about what the white man did and we talk about slavery and everything like that, but we have no self accountability and say, you know what? At the end of the day, that is my black grandmother, that is my black sister, you are my black sister. And you know that a black man is more likely to rob you or commit some type of crime against you. And that's what we need to get down to the issue of. And like you were talking about earlier, like, hey, well, what's going on? You know, what do you think the answer is to one of the brothers that we're speaking? I think it's the breakdown of the family. I think, like he said, because of our poor choices. And what happens is we look at domestic violence, for example, when domestic violence, women or men are even attacked, what is the first thing we say is like, you know what? It's not your. What, it's not your fault. So that's what we do. We hold onto this narrative that, well, it's not our fault and the issues in our community are not our fault and the white man needs to give us something. The old white lady down the street is looking at me and I don't know why she got braids in her hair. And we focus on all these other stuff, stupid things that don't matter. We don't get to the root of the fact that we're killing each other at a higher rate than any other race. It is self hatred amongst us. I believe that we can do that. That we. My cousin, my mom's cousin, excuse me, coming from the church parking lot. And guess who stuck her up and robbed her at gunpoint. A black man. I need you to get to the point is, is that no. And I'm not trying to be funny unless like you said, we're gonna keep it respectful. Yeah, but you're monopolizing the whole conversation. Okay, I'm gonna let you speak, but let's not get the attitude and stuff because you're my sister and I Respect you. So I don't have an attitude. I'm being direct to you. But you're literally speaking this, and you're not going to do that with me either. So you're stating your point. And you've been stating your point for quite some time. Yeah. Would you allow me to respond? So that's a better response. Go ahead. The response that I have for you is that everything you're saying does not exist in a vacuum. I actually agree with you in that, yes, there has been an incredible denigration of black worth and black pride in this nation. I think it's also very important to acknowledge what has contributed to that. And to say state that it is only black people that have contributed to that is a false flag. So we have to admit that. So in order to have this conversation around how we got here, you can't say, oh, well, we're caring about the white woman getting braids, and that doesn't matter. And this thing, all of that attaches, all of that is actually a very big part of the lack of worth of black people. I'll ask you, do you think we're resilient? What does resilience mean to you? Do you think we have to be perpetual victims or do you think that black people are? I think that those are two different conversations. I think they're. Because I think that the concept of black people being victims is really trying to not provide accountability to where the root problem for the actual cause is. And if we keep saying that somebody is a victim and that that doesn't mean that the other person should have to have to actually have accountability, then what are we really doing? You can do both. You can be a victim and be resilient. How do we do both? If you stay in the victimhood? That's my question. But your statement about black people staying in the victim place is also your point of view. But how do we rise above it? We continue to rise above it by one, pouring into our communities with mutual aid. But two, by simultaneously making sure that we are challenging the systems that are in place to impede us. We have so many opportunities where we are trying to do mutual aid. And those things get disrupted by folks who want to have capitalist gain, by folks who want privatization. We used to have all these mom and pop businesses in our communities. There's over 3 million black billionaires in America right now. You are an intelligent black woman. That is successful. That's irrelevant. No one's stopping me from doing anything. I'm an intelligent black woman that graduated have tried to stop me from doing what I do. We are not all equal in our capabilities, and we are not all equal in our ability to be invested in by others. We are not all equal in our trauma. Are we resilient? We can't say we because it is a false equivalency. I believe that every black person has resilience. We keep trying, but we keep trying to cause. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry you've been voted out.

[A]

First, I want to say, I want to kind of get rid of it's like, right, left, ordeal. I really want to talk about just like our own personal views and what we've experienced, what we've seen. And when it comes to your claim about black on black crime, I really do believe, and I think a lot of people here do believe, especially based off of personal experiences and everything, that it is just lack of accountability in the black community. We need to start taking responsibility for our actions and stop pointing our fingers at other people and the white man.

[B]

Because to be honest, both happen at the same time. Because our causes.

[A]

Because you got to clean your own house before you go, why?

[B]

Because if you're dirtying my house. No, if you keep pouring shit into my house and I'm cleaning it, why can't I do both? Why can't I clean my house and bar the windows from you shitting?

[A]

It begins with responsibility within us. If we're like, okay, oh, the white person's doing this. I mean, the white person that. We're not going to ever come to the core of the issue.

[B]

We need to take responsibility, just the white person. Because now we have seen very many races, people of very many backgrounds that are actively participating in the effort to keep a working class down. Like that isn't. That is absolutely a fact. It's not just white people. So I don't. I don't attend to that. But I will say the reality of there being systems in place is real. Over policing is a real thing. You know what's also been really real is the effort of violence interruption in certain communities. Right? So we've seen this in Detroit, we've seen this in New York, We've seen this in Baltimore, where there are communities that have said, what we're gonna do is we're gonna be like a neighborhood watch for our community. So that before the popo even come, before 12 even rolls up in here, we're gonna actually put ourselves in between the conflict and calm it down. And that has been incredibly effective. But you know what? It's not funded. It's not funded. And you would think that, like, city councils and mayors and governors would say, shit, you know what? This is going to save us so much money. Because why taxpayers keep having to pay for the fault of these police officers. And even though we say, well, only certain people, only a certain number of people have died, that doesn't dispel the fact that a large amount more black people are imprisoned than any other group in this nation. And that is not by accident.

[A]

Again, I started with accountability and it just seemed like.

[B]

But I disagree with you. I mean, I don't. Sorry, I don't disagree with you.

[A]

Because here's the thing. Look at, look at our media. Look at, look at rap. Look at what we glorify. We're glorifying violence.

[B]

Wait, who's. Who's we?

[A]

Who's the black?

[B]

Who controls the black community? Who controls the distribution of these sources of media?

[A]

And who takes it control and who takes it in?

[B]

Listen, if you're. Okay, so let me put it in this context. If I have a company, right, and you guys are my employees and I determine what you get to eat every day, that's also going to determine how you exist in this company, right? Like if you come to work and I say the only thing you can eat is processed foods and fried foods and you're not going to get to have the best vegetables, et cetera, what's that going to affect your health, that's going to affect your ability to operate, etc. This is how the United States operates. There's a lot of us that don't want to admit that as much as accountable as we want to be, all of our brains also don't operate the same way. Some of us are much more apt to be indoctrinated than others. That's a fact. There is a 1% of people that knows this. There's a whole show called Mad Men that's about advertising, etc. And if we don't acknowledge multiple things at the same time, then we simply cannot stop it. We can be as accountable as we want to be. And I hope. I hope that if you're right, because I hope you're right, I wish that it was a situation where if black people could just be accountable, then nothing else would matter. But unfortunately, that hasn't been the case. Because we have seen when we have black, hot black Wall street in Tulsa and we have black Wall street in Durham, that when we actually do hold our own and build our own communities, they will still come and Run it down. Pause. You've been voted out. Please return to your seat. Oh, my God.

[A]

Joshua.

[B]

Hello, Joshua.

[A]

So I have two claims I want to settle. So I'm originally from New Orleans. Right. And I seen black on black crime my whole life. Right. I don't believe in having nothing to deal with the police. It's more with the community because there's a lot of pride that's in that city where to the point where this person can't tell me nothing, I'm gonna kill him.

[B]

I'm gonna take him out. Yeah.

[A]

It's that simple in New Orleans.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, Cali is probably the same way, but I feel like every. Every state is different. You probably, the way how your belief is, might be. Right, Right. But in New Orleans, it's a little different also. My second claim is this. We proclaim so much about Black Lives Matter, but when it comes down to a white person killing a black person, it's a big deal. It just don't make no sense to me.

[B]

Do you know what the statement Black Lives Matter is actually stating?

[A]

Well, like, you know, it started off from George Floyd started off from Mike Brown. Mike Brown, Okay.

[B]

So Black Lives Matter is really simply just stating that when black people are murdered by the police, that our lives should matter, and that oftentimes it is not considered. It is oftentimes presented as we deserved it or we must have done something to cause it, and that our lives are disposable. We also don't ever see true justice on the same level as others when the police incur violence against black people. So Black Lives Matter is a statement asserting that our lives are worth justice, our lives are worth preservation. And we have seen in innumerable instances, a level of restraint operated between the police and people of other races that they do not seem to carry with black people. So that's what Black Lives Matter means. It doesn't mean that anyone else's life doesn't matter. It means that ours matter just as much as their lives.

[A]

That's good that you cleared it out for people.

[B]

I appreciate you. Now as it comes to New Orleans, tell me this. Well, first of all, it was. I think it's the senator of Louisiana who literally made a campaign ad, Kennedy, it was that said, do you want Louisiana to be run by crackheads? Like, he said that, like, straight out, they have a bunch of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they do. So here's my question about New Orleans. Would you say that New Orleans gets that particular areas of New Orleans, for instance, like the Ninth War, yeah, the.

[A]

Ninth war is crazy. But I'm just saying, would you say.

[B]

That funding and attention is dispersed equally across New Orleans and in terms of resources? Because I know that from living through Katrina that that is absolutely not the case.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with you in that case. Everybody's not equal when it comes down to resources. For sure, I agree with you.

[B]

Here's the thing I want to just impart is that I think that we have a very distorted version of resiliency and what restorative practice is, because we live in a time where we're seeing so many things happen so fast. So, like, we've seen technology, like, advance so fast. Right. Like, we have seen just our lives shift so fast that I think that we forget that as humans, our ability to recalibrate, to heal from trauma is simply not the same as the things that we are watching in technology. And so we cannot just casually think that people just get over things. Katrina, people in New Orleans are still reeling from this.

[A]

Yeah, they are. That's true. That's true.

[B]

That is true. Yeah. So when we talk about the amount of crime and violence that is still living and happening explicitly in Katrina, we have to also talk about the amount of trauma, the amount of drug use, the amount of policing, the amount of all of these things that physically harm people across the world, not just in the United States, across the world, in communities that are not being served, and how those communities never get the chance to, quote, unquote, pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I personally agree. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, okay. I agree.

[A]

Yeah, that was short.

[B]

Yeah, of course. Thanks, Josh. No problem. My next claim is this episode is.

[A]

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[B]

Systemic racism isn't a theory. It's our lived reality, backed by data and history.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Hello, John.

[A]

John Samuel.

[B]

Hello. John Samuel. First name? First name. All right.

[A]

Blame my parents.

[B]

Hi, parents.

[A]

I want to listen to you first. Why do you feel that? Why do you feel that way? Why do you feel that way?

[B]

John went to debate training before he came here. Okay. Ultimately, I feel that way because it's simply just facts. It's in the books, and that's why there have been laws to challenge it. There have been innumerable instances where actual systems were created specifically for the impediment of black people to advance. We have also seen numerous instances where there were things created for black people to advance and they were taken back under the auspices of we don't want them to advance. Ultimately, systemic racism exists in our institutions, on a government level, in our institutions, whether it's prisons or schools, and it is undeniable because they are actively trying to reinstate it right now.

[A]

Can you give me an example of one of those systems that you believe perpetuates that cycle of racism? Redlining. Okay, and how does that. Like, you know. Can you elaborate? Like, how is that affecting the black community?

[B]

Do you know what redlining is?

[A]

I know a little bit. I'm not. I'm not an expert.

[B]

Redlining was a system that was created to determine property values, and that said black people can only live in certain neighborhoods and not in other neighborhoods. And the redlining lowered the property values of those black neighborhoods by stating that they were more savage, that they were more dangerous, etc. Thus, they were not able to own property that was on a level of par to their white counterparts. There were also many efforts at just simply not allowing black people to get loans for property, putting them in predatory scenarios where they were being essentially unable to own land. And that inability to own land, but still having to pay out a mortgage, if you will, or a rent, continued to put black people in a conundrum of not being able to excel at the same economic rate as their white counterparts.

[A]

What I'm hearing from you, if I'm hearing correctly, is it feels like in the United States that for a while, we've kind of established these systems at their foundation, and they've continued on, and they've continually just oppressed black people. And we haven't dismantled them and we haven't done much. So they continue to complete the cycle. Is that what I'm hearing correctly?

[B]

Well, in many of these systems, they have been dismantled, maybe in name, but because this country has never dismantled the culture of racism, they end up still living in practice. So we see that, for instance, in the way that the appraisal system works now. We saw, like, there was an entire documentary on how appraisals have been also very racist. Home appraisals. Right. So your ability to sell your house for the value that it deserves. There were a number of homes, particularly in Marin County, California, where black people had One appraisal, when they had their blackness up, so they had their dashikis hanging, you know, and they had their. Right. They had their black Good Times poster. But then when they removed all those items and put up white people and a dog in the house and then had their white friends come and pose as the owners of the home, the appraisal was significantly higher. And we have seen that in a number of instances. Now, of course, that is just Marin county, but there are a number of other scenarios where this has been relayed, and that's why there were certain efforts by the Democratic Party to state, okay, well, we're going to try and step in for this.

[A]

I actually remember that case, and I watched it with the family, and I thought that was just really just terrible. But the problem I guess I have with systemic racism is, I guess for somebody like me, where my family comes from the Deep south, you probably don't even know it. Aliceville, Alabama, that's where my grandparents are from. And my grandpa came. If you saw the house that he grew up in, I'm not trying to be funny, it looked like a slave house. It was just. They grew up in poverty. And the fact that he was able to go from that and get the highest rank enlisted in the United States Navy amidst, you know, all these, you know, systems, so to speak, and he was able to buy his own house out in San Diego, he was able to, you know, pass on these things to his son, my dad, and his grandchildren. You know, now I'm able to get an education. I was able to get my undergrad, my master's. That, you know, the great, great grandson of enslaved peoples can now say that, you know, educated and can even run for Congress. You know, I don't see how these systems are still in place as they were before, because before, I would say you do have a little bit of a foothold. You do have some validity there. But I just think these days, when we call it systemic racism, really what we're calling it is those people who may still be in those institutions, those individual people who may actually be racist and hold some racist ideals, who are continuing to perpetuate this, I believe it's those people. So in all reality, the problem is not the systemic racism. The problem is us. The problem starts with us, with those people who are perpetuating these kind of racist ideals. And so I feel like just to attack these systems is just. It's nonsense.

[B]

School.

[A]

Who's running the systems, like, which system.

[B]

You'Re talking about, whether it's a prison Industrial complex. We're seeing this now with. With immigration and ice. We're seeing this also with the effort at not making schools available for equal level of schooling available with the voucher systems that are now allowing tax dollars to allow people to go to segregated schools. Who is. Who is controlling those systems? So, for instance, in Tennessee, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So in Tennessee, you have a Senate and a House of Representatives that is largely controlled by white Republicans and that have actively said, we are not going to consider what the people want in our constituencies. We are going to simply just do what we want to do to the point where they have removed.

[A]

So it's only in those states that have largely white legislators or largely white people are controlling these systems. I just. I don't. I'm not trying to.

[B]

All right, guys, I'm so sorry. You have been voted out. Please return to your seat.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Oh, Lord.

[A]

So to go back to your claim, you basically said something about Tennessee and how they said what exactly. Said they are not in favor of what their people said or.

[B]

Yeah, Tennessee has actively said, you know, we're not really listening to our constituency. We're not even going to allow them in the gallery when we're voting on certain issues. So, for instance, like, when it comes to, like, guns in the classroom, like, the constituency very largely said, we do not want guns in the classroom. And they were like, well, we don't care. We're gonna do it anyway. We've also seen them actively silence members of the House of Representatives who are black and not silence someone who is doing the exact same action, who is a white woman. Gloria, shout out to the Justins.

[A]

You are right, actually, on this aspect, I did actually remember in the. I did actually remember a time where two black Democrats, I believe, were actually not allowed to speak. And that was interesting. And I found that really, like, insane, considering they're representatives of the state.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, no, I totally can get where you're coming from, but I don't think that's a institutionalized problem where it's a law per se. I think it's more so a personal vendetta in a way.

[B]

What's the difference if you are a lawmaker and you're exacting your personal ability, your personal choice through impediment of law change.

[A]

So if we're going to go based on systemic racism, it has to be institutionalized, which means it has to be written into law, made, made public. When it comes to that aspect, that's not necessarily made public by law, that's made public by choice. And actual discrimination by person.

[B]

So I can give you an example in Tennessee, okay, so for instance, in Tennessee, we can say that they are put into law that now tax dollars, people's. The public's tax dollars will be supporting voucher systems. The voucher systems for the schools allow parents to choose whatever school they want their child to go to using taxpayer money. And these schools can be private schools. And private schools are not in any way limited from creating systems of segregation. And this is actually how segregation, segregated schools was carried out previous to Brown versus Board of Education. So this is a systemic example. We also can acknowledge that systemic examples come from not always it being written into law. And I think that is a real straw man argument for the way that a lot of colorblind racism explained is carried out in the United States. And what happens when we do that is we ignore the fact that the most of the people making the laws are not going to put their racism on the books. That's true.

[A]

Obviously not going to put on the books. But when it comes to the civil Rights Acts of 1960, then you also want to talk about the one in 1968. They did actually give more fair housing equality.

[B]

That was the whole.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[B]

But you see, that's the thing. It's like if we. So that's, that's the difficult part of not changing a culture. You can change the law all day, but as Martin Luther King Jr. As the doctor Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. Talks about in his final book, he says, I feel like I integrated my people into a burning house because he understood America to be a place of morality.

[A]

Well, when it came back to. Even back in the 1970s, 60s, like Lyndon B. Johnson actually proposed many systems in place where he actually got.

[B]

People still got lynched.

[A]

Well, that's. I mean, I can't really like say that's a systemic problem. That's definitely a personal heart problem. Those are more people's individual choices against someone else. But when it came down to place.

[B]

Does not incarcerate those people or create any repercussions for those actions, then it is systemic. Well, because when you don't allow for there to be repercussions for harmful behaviors of a people, you are literally saying our system is okay with this. So that's what Black Lives Matter is about, right? Saying like, okay, if police are going to act in this way, well, there should at least be fair repercussions across all people that they're doing this to and they're not carrying out those repercussions. For black people. Why? And so the system is supporting this personal point of view that you're talking about, and that's what makes it also systemic. Along with the fact that we know for a fact that the number of black people incarcerated is greater per capita than white people. We know that black people are having longer sentences for the same crimes than white people. That's not me making that up. Like that is actual data. So systemic is real. Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you. All right. How you doing? Amanda. I'm Ryan. Nice to meet you. Thanks for being here. All right. Well, what I would say is as far as systematic racism, right, I think most of us would agree that at the very least it has occurred in this country. Right? You know, we've had slavery, we've had Jim Crow, segregation, all these different things. I think my argument would be that right now in modern America, I don't think at the very least, it's not as prevalent as it has been to where it could stop us from being successful. Okay. I would say that it's not a thing anymore where it needs to be talked about so much and so much attention focused on it. I don't think that currently there is systematic racism in a way that is going to be harmful to us. You know, like I said, to stop us, if anything, really. I think institutions such as things with dei.

[B]

What do you think DEI is?

[A]

Basically? I think that is it's, in a way, it's racism against other races outside of blacks. And so where did you get that.

[B]

Concept of it from?

[A]

I've researched a lot of things. I looked at different clips from both sides of the argument, things like that. But basically my point is I think that as far as systematic reason, I think that there's evidence from the other side in that there's different things that are pushing black people up in ways that are not fair and different things like that. Because I think that we should be merit based. I think that should always be merit based. And where we're in, you know, when there's jobs and different things like that, race should not be something that's considered. And so I think that let's say that there are ways right now where systematic racism is still alive. Again, it's not holding us back to a point where we can still be successful. We've seen so many examples, you know, today in modern times where black Americans can, you know, there's no opportunities that I have that a white person or that a white person has that. I don't have that. I believe that all of us.

[B]

Are you sure about that? Can you, can you, can you actually say that?

[A]

I would say that I have every opportunity in this country to be successful, to do what I want to do, and to stand on business that every other race has. Absolutely. And you have the same support? Even if I don't have the same support, I can, I can do what I got.

[B]

Do you have the same support?

[A]

I probably have more. I can have the same support than others. I have excellent community support. Absolutely.

[B]

For you.

[A]

Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Did you grow up in a lower income, middle income, high high income community?

[A]

It was middle income.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So again, I think that even those who grew up in very needy situations, right, they may not have been dealt a great hand of cards, but they still, they can still. You know, I think it comes down to accountability. You can still play your, play your hand and play your cards strategically in a way where you can still be successful, you can still do your thing and you can wind up on top and there's nothing stopping them from doing that.

[B]

Would you say that low income white people and low income black people have the same ability to excel?

[A]

I would say they have the same ability to excel.

[B]

Okay, so I'm going to start countering from that point then. So ultimately, we know that our low income communities are not given the same access to regional resources on a myriad of levels. They don't even have the same air quality. Okay. We know that low income communities in general are also going to be much more policed than other communities. We know that policing as it exists in the United States came from slave catching. So even the tradition of policing comes from protecting property, not protecting people. Okay, so let's start there. When we talk about low income, like the working class black people in this nation, we know that they have never been consistent considered ever. Whether they were slaves or not. They just weren't considered. And we also know, as our brother Isaiah pointed out, that there are still people in very powerful positions that hold very personal positions as it relates to racism. And so in that way, they are impediments to someone moving forward. When we talk about dei, the concept of DEI is not about lowering a standard, it's about widening the options. So we live in a nation that a lot of. I feel like a lot of y' all are looking at the United States as a long history of something. We have a short history. All right? For 400 years, there was slavery. Black people were not even considered whole humans. We Were three fifths human. After the Civil War, during Reconstruction, black people were then subjected to the black clause. The black laws were specifically for black people. The black laws incarcerated black people at such an exorbitant rate that they were able to get another slave labor force through the 13th amendment because you had black people that were serving entire life, like, months long, years long cases. I mean, years long sentences for jaywalking. Okay, so when we look at these things, we act as if. Well, why can't we just get over that? That's two generations previous. Okay, so if a father in the 19. In the early 1900s, was incarcerated for two years, how do you think that would impede their family from being able to. To grow? Right now? You're affecting the ability for their children to have two parents in the home. You also now have a mother who's, like, incredibly stressed and may have to always be working so she's not able to parent, et cetera. We also know that there is a continued effort in this nation to not have black people know the history of this nation. Like our good sis here was talking about, like, we have resilience, but this nation actively works systemically to keep that from us. Right. We look in Florida at the laws that they are passing to not allow education about our past. And we know that if we don't know where we came from, how can we know where we're going?

[A]

Sure. Okay.

[B]

All right. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry.

[A]

All good.

[B]

That's flags.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hi. Hi. Hi again. We cool now? We good. We good. I think we're on the same. We're kind of looking at the same side of the same coin. And I think. Because I think we both want the betterment of the black community, and I think we're maybe coming from it from different ways. And so I do respect your position to what you were saying as well, that there are certain things and powers at play. And I've experienced racism firsthand. A lot of conservatives may try to act like, oh, there's no racism in America. I absolutely believe there is racism in America. I believe racist people exist. I just don't think that the systems as they stand today are inherently racist because I've seen too many black people overcome. And I just feel like a lot of times what's left out of the dialogue is self accountability and, like, self will. We talk about how we were three fifths of a person, but now we are 100%, I guess, according to the law or whatever, a person. And I feel like at the End of the day, if you wanted to walk out here right now and decide, you know what, I want to change my career, I want to do that. You can. And that's why so many people and Nigerians come here and Indians come here and so many people who are not white, who are supposed to be discriminated against because they're not white, they come here and they become doctors and lawyers. Why? Because to your point, there's community. There's a sense of pride about. You know what? I got to go honor my parents back in Nigeria. I'm part Nigerian. I have to go honor my parents. I have to go honor my elders. They're not twerking and shaking booty. They're getting sick. They're literally twerking and shaking and booty Nigerians I know ain't doing it. If they are, we literally from Africa. They're doctors turking and shaking. Maybe I can shake because they got the money to back it up. But do you see what you're saying? Do you see what I'm saying, though? We have to be honest, Amanda, when India, as a fellow daughter of an immigrant, right? So my mother is from Grenada. My mother did come here and was able to work and was able to get green cards for folks. So shout out to my mom. There's a very big difference in growing up somewhere and coming from a place where you are the majority and where your people are running the show than being somewhere where your people have been subjugated the entire time. Your people have been. But your mama came here, and she wasn't the majority. So how did she succeed? She succeeded because she came here with the fortitude of coming from a place. Resilience. Let me say what I'm saying. College impact. If we don't acknowledge divide and conquer in the United States, we are having a pointless conversation. We have to acknowledge that there is a concerted effort at divide and conquer in the United States. We're literally watching it happen right now with an effort to divide and conquer and have black people fighting immigrants and have black people saying that immigrants don't matter. Fighting white people. People. White people is not the point. The concept of white people is about people who are upholding as a supremacy of whiteness versus people who understand that there should be an egalitarianism. There should be. We are becoming the new white supremacist. We are. We are. We are. We feel like we can't. We are. No, it's not that we're putting them. It's not that we're Putting them on a pedestal. It's that we are joining them and instead weaponizing our blackness against our people. When we do what you're saying, we are saying, I am better because I figured it out. And so you're the problem because you didn't figure it out. But, Amanda, what about if I believe that the American dream is I have a right to that as well? Is that me joining white people or is that me saying, you know what? I want a life in my. The American dream for me because it may look different from other people. Some people, it's a bottle chick for me. I want my kids to grow up in a wonderful neighborhood. I want them to go to college. I want to have a 401k. I want to do this. I want to do that. So I feel like a lot of times in the black community, we associate anything that's right or that's just or that's striving forward with whiteness. So when you say that we're working with whiteness, it's capitalism. And I think that's what we have to understand. The difference of the concept of capitalism always is grounded in exploitation. But, you know, we're sitting here benefiting from capitalism. And you know that because you would. I understand that we are benefiting. I understand that we are benefiting from capitalism. But I also understand that we would have other people and a vast more majority of people benefit if we were not solely capitalist. That is what it means to be a black radical. Radical is to understand that I can benefit as well as others. Samana, what is your solution then? Because we know that capitalism benefits us and people are constitutional. My solution is what I continue to say. We need to have coalition building across cultural differences, across ethnicities, across classes, and that includes collaborating with white people. I've never said it didn't. But this obsession, this obsession with white people fails to acknowledge the fact that there are people who benefit from white supremacy. Let me finish my point. There are people who benefit from white supremacy that do not identify themselves as white. They don't consider that to be the naming, the most important element of their identity because they understand that at the end of the day, we need to see each other as humans. That all deserve a right to exist. We all deserve a right to exist. And I shouldn't have to earn my right to exist. And that is what capitalism is. You think that you have to earn it. That's what I'm saying. That is what this nation is. You do have to earn it. You do. Yes, you do. That Is why we are criminalized the poor. We are criminalizing the poor on a regular basis. How so? Because we're not even allowing for a wage to happen to allow people to get out of poverty. We are seeing inflation. We also have people in our family that have done it. So we can't. No, we have not had people that are done it. My mother came to America with an entire nursing degree. I can't say, oh, well, my mother did it. Why can't you? Because my mother was pregnant at 19 from the south side of Chicago with no degree and still made good for your mom. But this is the thing. So we can't move. The question isn't whether or not some people can do it. The question and the reality is that it is not available to everyone in an equal way. And that's unfortunate. But, you know, we live in a broken society. I went to Nigeria and they're having the same problems and a bunch of black people that are running Nigeria. But it's the same thing in Nigeria. Nigeria is a broken society, whereas Burkina Faso is not. Burkina Faso is not. That's time. My final claim is black conservatism fails to meet the needs of the working class. Ant dog. Okay, talk to me.

[A]

So I think black conservatives, we're the ones who really want the best for working people. I think we're the ones like a lot of the liberals, A lot of leftists want us to do things like office work. They want us to go reparations, try to get things from the government and get handouts. We say, hey, go out there and work. Go out there and get these jobs that are available. Work with your hands. Do skilled trades. That's where a lot of us talk about skilled trades. So working class, that's really a black conservative thing, in my humble opinion.

[B]

I would beg to disagree. I think that that would be true if black conservatism also created pathways for people to get those jobs and also to be able to challenge the corporations that are using their labor, that are stealing from them and not impeding them from having a union. So, for instance, like in the south, right? I just left North Carolina where I met with the ussw, the Union of Southern Service Workers. This is an unofficial union of individuals who work at places like Waffle House, at Food lion, et cetera. And their unofficial union is unofficial because the conservatives in that state will not allow for them to be official. Official, officialized, legitimized, Legitimized.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

It will not allow for them to be legitimized. Because then they would be able to push back legitimately on the corporations to get fair wages. Right? So like someone was telling me in this organization that she was in Baltimore getting 1525 as a minimum wage. And then when she moved just one state away, she was now only getting 725 for minimum wage. But the cost of living was the same for her. So when we talk about, you know, the effort of saying go out and get these jobs and get these trades, etc. I think that that is valid. But I think that the impediments, by leveling up corporations and by pouring into the effort of corporations to keep billionaires, billionaires as black conservatives, you are actually cutting off the ability for those people to excel.

[A]

Okay, I understand your point, but a lot of us are more about being self sufficient. So the South. A friend of mine down there, King Randall, has a school for boys. He's what, 22 years old. He has a bunch of kids living with them. He's teaching them physical skills they can do. Okay, yeah, being, being a mechanic, working on your car, working on your house, doing things with your hands. So you don't got to worry about corporations. You could be your own man, you could be your own woman. And also, didn't you also say earlier that you're against unions? But are you?

[B]

No, I never said that.

[A]

So you're for unions?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So when the unions keep black folks out, you're for that as well? Because that's traditionally what they've done. Keep black folks out. Correct?

[B]

Obviously I am not for that. The reality is that unions have definitely in the beginning kept black folks out. And the reason why they were keeping black folks out is because after the Civil War, when there was Reconstruction, you had all these black people that had been used with free labor and they had skills, right? Whether they were a blacksmith or a carpenter or whatever. However, they could not get jobs because the white people, who now had to fend for themselves, if you will, because they didn't have slaves, they had to go and learn all these trades. And so they actively kept black people out of those jobs. And then what they would do is that when they would, as a union, say we're going on strike, the black people would be like, well, we'll work because they won't let us in their union anyway. And then when they would go and actually get those jobs that were, that the people were on strike for, they would hang them, they would lynch them. So yes, these are real things that have taken place. But we keep having these conversations where we Acknowledge the past when it's convenient, and then we only stay in the present when it's convenient. So you can't simultaneously say, well, everybody's fine now and there's no systemic racism at the same time as stating that there are unions that are racist and unions that aren't racist. Ultimately, there is racism in the United States. It is deeply embedded. We have seen it in a myriad of examples, even just yesterday or today. And black conservatives are working against the working class because they are actively placing their vision, their ideology of black excellence in economics solely.

[A]

Well, there is.

[B]

And in individual economics. And I think that's really the big difference of what we're talking about right now. You're talking about every man for themselves. Every man for themselves.

[A]

No, I don't say that. Oh, you say. I say that we have to be individual as people, as black people, but still get all of us on the same page. My friends at school, he's not just looking out for himself, looking for all these kids as well. So it's like, okay, I bring myself up and then bring everybody else up, rather than relying upon the corporations and white people to lift this up. That's where we come from.

[B]

There's a difference between relying on and acknowledging that there are impediments of. And I want to acknowledge the reality that we keep seeming to bump up against, which is that everybody has equal ability and they don't. Everybody doesn't have the same impediments. So, for instance, I grew up with a single parent, not because.

[A]

Me too, I grew up with a.

[B]

Single parent, not because my father was some deadbeat that didn't have. My father has a MD from Harvard. My father has an MBA from Tufts.

[A]

My dad, My dad was a firefighter. So working class conservative.

[B]

He just didn't want to be a parent. So when we talk about this whole idea of like, oh, the blacks that, that are, you know, not doing the thing, it's not about necessarily whether what class you're in. It's literally just about we live in a nation that gives the option of I don't want to be a parent. We live in a nation that gives the option of I don't need to be in cooperation with our community. And as far as I'm concerned, black conservatives do not address the needs of the working class, which are fair access to resources, which are equal access to getting jobs, which are equal pay to the same access as others. And we don't.

[A]

Equal to who?

[B]

Equal to other states even. Like, there's no reality where you can say that the same amount of white people are working low wage jobs per capita as black people. A lot of the reason is because there's such a disparate incarceration of black people that it impedes their ability to get higher level education as well as higher level employment. Because we know about disenfranchisement.

[A]

All right, there you go.

[B]

Hi. Hi. Layla. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. I'm Layla. I would actually argue that the black working class is failing themselves. Wouldn't you agree that, you know, in order to get a job, in order to qualify for a certain position and an education system at a job, wouldn't you argue that it should be based off of qualifications and not your race or identity? I've never argued that. I've never argued that. I know that you were saying that you would argue that it should be equal. Right? So you're saying that there should be black Americans in education systems, in jobs, but wouldn't you argue that they should be qualified for those positions and not just place their. Because of their skin color? I've never disapproved that. Okay, so let's. That's not what DEI is. Do you know that? Well, I'm not talking about DEI right now. Well, because you're suggesting that I suggested that somebody should get a job just because they're black. And I've never asserted anything like that. I mean, I understand that you may not say that exactly, but a lot of the claims are, you know, they're pointing to that. No, it's not pointing to that. And so that is that I need to clear this up because it's a really important point. Okay. We live in a nation that has actively pedestaled white people. Can we all agree on that? That we. In the past. In the past. In the past, but not currently. Okay, fair, Fair. Okay. So how many black people are part of this administration's cabinet? I'm not too sure. Can you tell me? Can you film me? Zero. So seems like there may be a couple. I don't know, Scott Turner. Okay. Okay. So there are. So we got two. There are. So we got. We got two. We got two. So back to your point. DEI is about expanding.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

Okay. Not lowering credibility. Okay. So if we have a system that has very actively said these particular people are the best people simply because of their race, DEI said. Or their gender. Okay. Because DEI mostly leveled up white women. Okay. So it would be incorrect if it's, you know, if we're pointing toward this, you know, a majority of race Is qualified because of the skin. The basic skin. Absolutely. Yeah. Whether they're white, black, I mean, race, fake, anything. Now, I do want to touch on a point that you did mention earlier that you would argue that, you know, black people have less opportunities in America. I do not agree with that. I have not had. You know, first of all, you're a light skinned woman and so are you. Yes. And you're doing great. Colorism. Yes. And so colorism really does serve us. I do want to say, why do you think that is though? Why do you think that? Do you think it's just based off the color of our skin or do you think it's based off of the reputation that black people make for themselves? What reputation are black people making for? What would you argue? Because I mean, when I look at who makes reputation for black. Let's look at music, for example. We already had this conversation with somebody else. We're going to have it again. Most of the people that. Oh, are we most of the people. I'm going to shut it down right now and let you know that the reality is that when you come to black music, for you to say most of the people, you've already lost the argument. Am I right? There is no. Most of the people with black people. Because you haven't heard of all of black music. No. Most of the music that is, let's say, maybe exalted or shown by the media. Right. And who controls defiles black Americans? Who controls. But who's putting it out there? Who are black? We're the ones distribution systems that are putting them out there are owned by white people who listens to them. Because I can bet you most of my friends, my black friends that are not conservative, they listen to, to that music that defiles their bodies. You know, who's about black on black crime and everything else. But if I don't acknowledge that they are not in the same way pursuing white voices, talking about the same thing, even though they are. We simply like to start at the branches of a tree and not at the root. We have to understand that the media is king, okay? Media is king. And media does not, does not favor conservatism. I can tell you that right now. I mean, look at the protests right now in Los Angeles. Depending on who is in office, media does favor them. I mean, we have Trump in office right now and media is not favoring Trump at all. Media is absolutely not favoring Trump circuit spaces because Trump is also not favoring that particular type of media. But it depends on the day. And we have to acknowledge that regardless of whether you talk conservatism or not, media has never favored black people at any point. All right, guys, that's time. You've been voted out. Thank you. At any point. Thank you. I'm back.

[A]

So let's talk about facts. I just want to move back to systemic racism because you mentioned systemic racism earlier. I just want to look at three applications of systemic racism against white people and against East Asians as well. So, for example, we have the National College Attainment Network, which defines affirmative action, or even race conscious admissions, as taking race as one of the factors in whether or not you're going to admit a student. And we noticed that when Race Conscious Missions was out of it, Black enrollment dropped 64% at UC Berkeley. And that is an act of systemic racism, trying to look at people's races and allow them into colleges whether or not they're of a set. Race is racism, and it's race conscious. And Martin Luther King's most famous quote is that he doesn't want his children to be judged based on race, but by the content of their character. And the content of people's characters also includes merit. We have another example of systemic racism. Burgess Owens. He's a representative out of Utah. He's a black Republican representative. He called out the MIT president for having black only dormitories. I mean, what does that mean? Why are we trying to segregate each other and say that black people feel safer amongst black people when the truth is they are actually more in danger when they're around black people? And that's unfortunate. It's sad that I'm saying this, but it's the case. And I have to say it because it's true. Okay? Black people are killing each other at a vast, crazy rate. Black men rapping about it. It's savagery. It's barbaric. And we shouldn't be doing it as a people. We should try to get more. Ben Carson's. Ben Carson's cousins were murdered when he was younger. But his mother came to him and gave him a book and told Ben Carson to read and study. So to not be like his cousins. And Ben Carson separated two twins at the back of the head. And he's known as one of the best pronoun neurologists or neuroscientists that we've ever seen. Right.

[B]

Ben Carson said that slaves were immigrants.

[A]

Well, they were brought here to the United States, and many of them were slaves. And we know that to be a fact.

[B]

What is the difference between someone being an immigrant and being a stolen person.

[A]

I mean, I understand that many people were stolen here, but 90% of historians agree that slavery would have not been possible if black slave owners within Africa didn't sell off their people. White people didn't show up and just start stealing people. They didn't do that. That's not how that worked.

[B]

Literally did that, but they didn't.

[A]

They worked with black owners and blacks.

[B]

The Arabs that listed that as well. And I think it's. And I think it's important to note that there is an oversimplification of history as well as of black people in Africa. There's a failure to acknowledge that in Africa, black people did not consider themselves black people. That was a racial distinction that was solely created by white oppressors to literature to legitimize slavery.

[A]

Arab oppressors, actually, because the Arabs did it in the 70s. They were the first ones.

[B]

They did not name it under blackness. They simply just decided, we're going to go and have enslavers. This was a decision that was actualized and then tried to be pushed forward through eugenics, literally. There was an executive order that was passed a few months ago that said that Donald Trump wants to now control the museums because he wants to take back control of the narrative around race. And in one of these museums that they cited was that there was a display that speaks about race not as a biological thing, but as something that has just been created as a social construct. And he stated that that is an incorrect expression of race, that race is.

[A]

Biological, but it is biological. Like, let's look at our phenotypical traits, the nose differences, the hair texture. It's a. It's a biological thing. Sure, there's a. There's a. There's a social concept, but there's biological differences.

[B]

You're very convicted in your lack of information around these things. Race and ethnicity are two different things, okay? Ethnicity is where you're from. Race is literally something that was created to put people into categories of caste, to put people into categories of oppression. Race is not something that you are. Race is something that was bestowed and put upon.

[A]

That's racism, not race.

[B]

Race is simply the aggregation, literally something that was created and put upon you. And I want you to listen to me as somebody who has studied this, who has a massive. In African American Studies from the Institute for Research and African American Studies at Columbia University. I want you to understand very clearly that race is not something that is biological. There is literally.

[A]

Look at us.

[B]

No, look at the difference There is many differences that are equated to ours.

[A]

Melanie Compton is not biological at all.

[B]

So if you have a black parent and you have a white parent, and now you come out looking white, how is that a biological.

[A]

But most of them. Most of them come out having curly hair.

[B]

Stop. There is no. Most of them, you do not have anything.

[A]

You're mixed race, too.

[B]

I am not mixed race. My mother is black and my father is black.

[A]

Well, my father is also considered black, but he's very much has a lot of European DNA.

[B]

You know what I think? I think that you are at a phase of your learning where you are a contrarian. And I look forward to seeing your development because I have a feeling that you're actually going to flip the script eventually, because you are somebody that definitely is grounded in wanting to learn facts and wanting to learn the truths of things. However, you're currently still stuck in an indoctrinated space that is tricking you into thinking that you are something that you are not. You are a black person who is literally having to receive the results of racism, but ultimately, you are of an ethnicity that has thrived in spite of it. And that is where we really exist from, and that is where our resilience comes from. In spite of systemic racism.

[A]

I think our resilience is happening now. I think growing, understanding the real problems, not going out and trying to protest against. You guys don't ever do this. KTS Dre.

[B]

You guys don't ever do that. Who is you guys?

[A]

Members of the black community don't want to hold people accountable, especially black people. So KTS Dre was shot 60 times outside of Cook County, Chicago. How many BLM members came out? You guys, you earlier said BLM.

[B]

Stop referring to me as you guys.

[A]

Okay, that's fine. So, for example, we had a really good example of this where it's not a police, because I remember you said.

[B]

Where are you from?

[A]

Where am I from? What do you mean by that? Like, what state am I from? Where was I born?

[B]

Where do you live?

[A]

Right now I live in Florida. I was born in Angola, though. I was born in Sub Saharan Africa.

[B]

Okay, where did you grow up for.

[A]

Most of your time in Maine? I lived in North America.

[B]

In Maine?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And what is the population of black people in the town that you're from?

[A]

It's really extremely low. But I grew up around black people, and there's a black community where I lived.

[B]

And that black community that you lived in, did they teach you about black history in the United States? Are your Parents black American.

[A]

Yeah, my mom is black. My father is black.

[B]

No, I'm asking, are they. Were they born in the United States?

[A]

Because I wasn't born there.

[B]

Oh, so you guys are all from Angola.

[A]

Yes, but again, like I told you earlier, right? In terms of people like KTS stray, they were shot. BLM doesn't come out for them. And I remember you earlier said.

[B]

I think it's really.

[A]

Can I please finish? Can I please finish? You earlier said that BLM is worried about police, but when Daniel Penny choked out the man that we all know was causing violence on that subway train.

[B]

Or something, he was not causing violence.

[A]

He was. He was trying to.

[B]

Causing disruption is not causing violence.

[A]

He was threatening people.

[B]

Causing disruption is not there.

[A]

And the people there helped him also, and we know that he helped them.

[B]

I don't know what that has to do with blm. Random people on a train is not.

[A]

BLM showed up for that.

[B]

They just showed up for what?

[A]

BLM showed up threatening white people, saying that they're going to get people.

[B]

Now BLM protest, New York, BLM protest. Where did you get that from? You see, no, your sources are not. You're not able to cite your sources down.

[A]

Yeah, that's the truth.

[B]

It's not true. It's not the truth. It's not that. Nothing you say is actually the truth. Nothing. You're not even American. You're not even a black American. As the daughter of an immigrant, it is imperative that black people from other places understand the disparate difference that they exist from black people in the United States. It is not the same period. And ultimately the best effort that we can do as a diaspora is to lead in understanding, not in judgment. So when I am talking to somebody from Sudan, from the Congo, from Angola, I am listening to understand their experience, not to undermine it. And I refuse to allow anybody from Grenada, from Angola, from any other place to come and try to undermine the experience of black Americans. Amanda will now choose someone from the.

[A]

Circle to debate again based on a.

[B]

Claim of their choice who feels passionately about something that they want to talk to me about. Yeah, I choose John Samuel because I like his facial hair and dashiki pairing. I feel like he's gonna sing a mean R and B.

[A]

Which one? My claim is that black people as a community need to walk away from the Democratic Party and progressivism completely. I'm saying this from a very unique perspective. I'm not trying to shout myself or anything. This is really just my experience. Currently I'm running for Congress, right? And One of the biggest hurdles I have in doing that is the black community. It's because they expect us to be in this box.

[B]

What's the box?

[A]

The box would be, okay, you're. You're black, so you gotta be a Democrat. You gotta think this way. You have to have this view on this matter.

[B]

Think what way? Like, I really want to understand.

[A]

So let's take immigration. That's a. There's a hot button issue right now, especially in Los Angeles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My view is that UD should come here the legal way and that if you don't come here the legal way, you are subject to the laws of the country. But I also feel that if anyone.

[B]

Would disagree with that.

[A]

Yeah, well, I'm just saying that a lot of people, especially where I'm from, I'm from San Diego, would like to put black conservatives in this box. And the reason why I say specifically in my claim that black people need to walk away from the Democratic Party is because every single election cycle, all they do is use as their tokens. They use us as their kind of election tools. They use us as these campaign posters. They tell us to come to their rallies. They tell us to sing on their stages. They tell us to do all these things, and they forget about us three other years and they remember us four years later. Every single cycle, it happens again and again. And I'm one of the people. Like, I really appreciate you because it seems like you have love for the black community and you have a love for people, and I appreciate that. And I do, too, because I don't express that in the same way as, let's say, as a black person who's a member of the Democratic Party. I get called Uncle Tom. I get called coon. I get called a racist. I hate myself. I love myself and I love our people. I love everything about us. We have done so much for this country. We built this table that everyone is seated at. We deserve rights. We deserve all these things. However, what I don't like more than that, more than anything is being used, is being used by politicians being used by governments as some type of puppet to say, here's my black person that's voting for me. I don't like that, and it makes me sad. No matter your Democrat, Independent.

[B]

Can I respond?

[A]

Whatever. Yes. Yeah, sorry.

[B]

I completely agree. I completely agree. I would add to that that it's no different with the conservative party, that there is 1000% a use of black people to weaponize a concerted effort to literally, quote, unquote, make America great. Again, the concept of make America great again did not start with Donald Trump. It started with Ronald Reagan. And it happened right after the Civil rights movement. There was a very strong visceral response by white people after the Civil rights movement, after the Voting Rights act of 1965, the Civil Rights act of 1964, the Housing Fair Housing act of 1969, the Economic Opportunity act of 1965. These were all efforts that were put in place on a federal level to say, okay, fine, fine, here, nigga, damn, we gonna give you a little bit of something to get your weight up. After that, there was a active effort made by conservatives because that's also when we saw the flip between the Democratic and Republican parties that there was a flip. That's actively what happened.

[A]

There was a flip and we construction Democrat. Democratic Party has been the party of slavery, the party of racism.

[B]

There was a flip because the Democratic, The Democrats were more aligned with making these civil rights concessions than the Republicans. That's the flip. Ultimately, though, the flip is what people are misappropriating because the flip isn't a 180. Okay? The flip is literally just, we was this and now we this. And that is not the same as we are for black people. The Democratic Party is not for black people, nor is the Republican Party. Any nation that has a bipartisan system that doesn't even allow for its own people to determine who are going to be the candidates for president isn't for its people in general, beyond blackness. So it's imperative that we begin to truly understand the systems at work in this government that not only hinder us as black people, but they hinder anyone who wants to see change because they are ultimately working together. Now, do we see one party activating higher levels of discrimination than others? Yes. Do we see one party that is more violent per se than others? Yes. And we can say this on many different levels, but when it comes to, like, enacting genocide or destabilizing other nations, we know that that happens on an American level, regardless. Okay, I completely agree that the idea that you have to act a certain way as a black person is really problematic because the Democrats and the Republicans, neither of them actually care about black people. And when we talk about conservatism or we talk about being liberal, neither of these aspects. Aspects were grounded in how do we help to repair the harm that we have caused an entire group of people who made it possible for us to even have a constitution. So you can sit here and show me whatever you want.

[A]

No, no, no. The only reason I was going to show you. This is because you.

[B]

Because even with that Constitution, we weren't even humans what when they wrote it.

[A]

So that was another fact check. I wanted to kind of fact check before, but I couldn't say anything. But the 3/5 compromise had nothing to do with your 3/5 of a person. The 3/5 compromise had to do with representation in Congress. So there is a little note here if you open this.

[B]

The Three Fifths compromise said that the Southern slaveholders needed to be represented fairly in Congress. And because there was so many more slaves than actual white people in the south, they were allowed to count their slaves as representation even though those slaves did not have the ability to vote.

[A]

Well, if, if, if we were at that time, let's say the Three Fifths compromise never happened. We were a whole person as, as a light of the government. Right. If that happened, then this America would not be the America that you know today. Because what it was is if it.

[B]

Was, we were counted as defending the three compromises.

[A]

Listen, can you listen? No, listen for a second, okay. Because I don't want you to get miscarritized, what I'm saying. Okay?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Slavery was wrong. It was absolutely disgusting and immoral thing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I have nothing good to say about that. But the Three Fifths compromise, if you counted a person who was a slave as a whole person at that time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Most of the slaves were held in the south of the Mason Dixon line.

[B]

I said that.

[A]

Yeah. So what would happen is they would have more representation in Congress. And thus those laws that were, you know, by the abolitionists, those would have been, those would have been gone. Okay. So that would have gave the south more power to do the things that they couldn't do. So that's why they said the Three Fifths Compromise. Because then if it's Three Fifths compromise, they don't get that power. But of course they're people, so they have to say something. And that's where this came into play. Because if it wasn't for that, this country would have looked a lot differently.

[B]

So you're suggesting that it was okay for slaves bodies to not only be used for labor, but also used to empower those who are harming them to be, to be fairly represented in government.

[A]

I think it's absolutely. They should have been used, period.

[B]

Okay, so then we, so then we agree on that. So we agree on that.

[A]

It was, it was absolutely abhorrent. There is no excuse for it. There's no justification.

[B]

Where's the argument? Because ultimately when there was an opportunity in Reconstruction for there to be equality and humans considered in a real way and protected.

[A]

Democrats torched it. Andrew Johnson.

[B]

Yes. As well as the Supreme Court. That's actually more important. What we need, we have to acknowledge. The Supreme Court torched it. The Supreme Court has actively, throughout this entire existence of this nation, been at the forefront of impeding any advancement, and it ends up sending us back over and over and over again because it doesn't have term limits. Because it is. It doesn't have term limits. You know, it's not. It's not elected, it's appointed. And ultimately, they have made it abundantly clear that they pick and choose when it's the states that are going to have rights and when they're going to be in a federal position of. Of precedence.

[A]

Well, that's to do with the Supremacy clause. So the supremacy clause is when a federal law is in conflict with the state's law, the federal law. Example in California, weed is legal. Right.

[B]

But federally.

[A]

Federally, it's not. So they can come down here and they could say, hey, we're going to raid all these places, and they would be completely in line with.

[B]

And so this is how segregation and discrimination ended up existing even after the civil rights laws of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendment were passed. Because Congress said, we need to protect black people, and the Supreme Court said, we actually are not going to give you the right to do so. For what it's worth, I think we can do this back and forth all day, but at the end of the day, I will completely agree with you. Black people need to let the Democrats go. I think black people need to let both of these parties go and figure out a way to move forward together in our own nation.

[A]

You know what? I can actually get on with that because, you know, I don't believe that all Republicans are, you know, good and not using us as well. I agree with that. And I'm for.

[B]

Let's sing a duet.

[A]

I'm for no matter what color skin you are or black, whatever it is, think for yourself. If you think for yourself and you do your own research and you want to be a liberal radical, go for it. If you want to think for yourself.

[B]

And be a green party, everybody know I agree with you and be Republican, then go for it.

[A]

It's okay. You know what? I'm down for that. Think ourselves. Let's do it.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Appreciate you. I appreciate you coming on the show and debating with Amanda. I could see that there was a care for the community and There was a care for wanting to uplift us rather than treat us like a monolith. And that's what I'm all about, regardless. If you're a Democrat, Green Party, Republican, like, I just think that people are far more complex than we give them credit.

[B]

There is an active effort of folks on any side of the aisle that we want to see the elevation of black people to be able to come together and have real conversations that are grounded not in stats. And this is going to sound real, woo, woo, but it's what it is that are grounded in love. And I hope that whatever anyone took away from this conversation is the reality that I really do love black people. I love people and I love the ability to exist on this earth and have access to joy.

[A]

I think sometimes things got a little bit heated and that's okay because emotions get the best of us. But I think overall she did pretty well for her position. I don't agree with her for the most part, but I think she did pretty well.

[B]

Just kind of seeing this dynamic, that this is really what happens. A lot of times when we look at discourse, we look at it online, so everybody's typing and typing, but this is what real discourse looks like. When you have to really sit in front of someone and unpack your arguments, you can see the pressure that that causes and how you have to really kind of have your thoughts together and how heated and emotional it can get. So I think the fact that you guys created this space for us to be able to do that is awesome. Whether it was productive or not, we'll only see hopefully some of the things that we said stick with Amanda. She was using some of my quotes about resilience and everything, and I was like, okay, so I'm planting a little bit of seeds there. And then of course, there were times where when she was right, she was right. And I was like, you know what? She has a point. So I think it's pretty productive if you allow it to be. Don't forget to subscribe to Surround it.

[A]

Wherever you get your podcast so that.

[B]

You don't miss an episode.

[A]

And if you want to watch the video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.