Are We Really Going To End All Abortions? | Surrounded Follow-Up w/ Lila Rose

Summary

Surrounded Podcast – Follow-Up: Are We Really Going To End All Abortions? w/ Lila Rose

Host: John Regalato (Jubilee Media)
Guest: Lila Grace Rose (Pro-life activist and president of Live Action)
Original Debate Aired: Early 2025
Follow-Up Date: October 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

This follow-up to one of the most talked-about Surrounded episodes examines the major themes and most heated moments from Lila Grace Rose’s appearance—where she, as a pro-life advocate, debated 25 pro-choice voices. Host John Regalato and Lila reflect on what was learned, revisit specific arguments (with a focus on trauma, support systems, cultural context, and the underlying moral questions), and consider how the debate shapes public perceptions and policy. The conversation is deeply empathetic but unafraid to address the hardest realities, including violence, trauma, and the complexities of law and morality.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Impact and Purpose of Surrounded

[00:27]–[02:34]

• John opens by grieving Charlie Kirk’s assassination, emphasizing the necessity of "freedom of thought, honesty, vulnerability, humanity, and empathy."
• Recalls Jubilee's mission to create open, sometimes uncomfortable conversations as snapshots of our divided society.
• Emphasizes: “We reject the violence that was used to silence Charlie Kirk… We believe in a society where people must come together peacefully and use words to address their differences.”

2. Lila’s Experience on Surrounded and Its Aftermath

[02:50]–[04:33]

• Lila describes being "honored" to represent her side and was “blown away” by how many viewers reached out with changed perspectives.
• She shares, “After the conversation, one of the girls came up to me and said…this was one of the women who was at the Surrounded event. And she said to me, ‘You know, I actually agree with you.’”
• Both agree there’s value in “wrestling with complexity in public,” even on divisive topics.

3. Trauma, Judgment, and the Impact of Abortion – The Jack’s Prince Exchange

[05:31]–[07:49]

• Jack’s Prince (Pro-choice activist) shares:
  • Lived experience of being a Black mother judged for either outcome—keeping or aborting.
  • Feels Lila is imposing regret and says: "You're expecting me to sit here and let you tell me how I'm supposed to feel? You're trying to scare me." [06:23]
• Lila’s Response:
  • Expresses empathy but maintains abortion is a tragedy: “It does break my heart that…there could be a child…who would be cheering you on…You got this.” [05:47]
  • Emphasizes adoption as an alternative and laments lack of support systems: “The fact that she didn’t…know about that option or…enough support to be able to explore that option, and instead she chose abortion. It’s devastating…” [08:05]
  • Contends there is deep trauma after abortion, even if not recognized immediately.

4. Support Systems & Social Safety Net

[09:39]–[13:03]

• John: Raises concerns about the reality of increasing births among vulnerable populations if abortion ends, and the historical lack of government prioritization for parental support.
• Lila:
  • Argues for improved, better-publicized pregnancy resource centers, more generous family subsidies, and making birth free.
  • “There are thousands of pregnancy resource centers, more than there are abortion clinics, that provide free confidential care to moms and babies in need...” [11:52]
  • Advocates shifting government funding away from abortion clinics to direct support for mothers/families.

5. Cultural Change Around Sex, Responsibility, and Contraceptives

[13:03]–[18:14]

• Lila advocates a "values-first" cultural shift: sex mainly within marriage, coupled with openness to parenting, saying:
  • “Pregnancy doesn’t just happen out of nowhere…Pregnancy happens because of activities that adults choose to enter into, which is sex.” [13:09]
  • Argues the sexual revolution led to adults being “less prepared for the consequences.”
• Is critical of contraceptives as a solution:
  • Claims “50% of the women who get abortions right now were on contraceptives the month that they got pregnant.” [16:42] (Citing Guttmacher/Planned Parenthood)
  • Calls contraception an inadequate “false sense of security,” suggesting instead a “mindset shift” toward shared responsibility and sacredness.

6. Catholic View on Sex and Family Planning

[18:14]–[21:43]

• Lila balances tradition and realism—noting sex is for both pleasure and procreation.
• Endorses “natural family planning” over artificial contraceptives.
  • “Sex is designed to do two things...It does bring incredible pleasure and…bonding…And that is one of the reasons why hookup culture...is so harmful emotionally.” [19:03]

7. Bipartisan Policy Gaps and Possibility for Consensus

[21:43]–[24:34]

• John probes political feasibility of proposals like government support for families and birth costs.
• Lila is “hopeful” for bipartisan agreement on free birth, increased child credits, and funding for supportive non-profits rather than abortion clinics.

8. The Question of Bodily Autonomy

Dana Pelavan, Executive Director (rape crisis):

[26:52]–[29:23]

• Stresses the need for autonomy for survivors of assault:
  • “Abortion care is health care for survivors…When you say to someone who has already had choices taken away…that I then have to carry a child to birth and then have my life put in danger…”
• Lila’s response:
  • “We are aligned—that is absolutely horrific…But I don’t believe two wrongs make a right…Ending that new life…giving that new human being the death penalty…” [28:41]
  • Maintains abortion only “adds a secondary act of violence.”

Moral Dilemmas Explored Further [30:09]–[36:42]

• John: Acknowledges tension, especially in cases of child rape or extreme youth.
• Lila reiterates trauma for survivors but insists abortion doesn’t heal:
  • “To tell a rape survivor she’s going to feel better after an abortion is a lie.” [35:28]
• Calls for stronger punishment for rapists, “not the unborn child.”

9. When Does Life (and Personhood) Begin?

[37:18]–[47:35]

• Adam (pro-choice): Raises distinction between brain development, personhood, and moral obligations—sees the conflict as between pregnant woman's autonomy and fetus's developing rights.
• Lila: Insists human life’s “objective” biological start is conception; protection shouldn’t depend on age or ability:
  • “If you are a human, you have human rights, regardless of how developed your brain might be.” [38:01]
  • Says legal norms already enforce parental bodily sacrifices for children, both pre- and post-birth.

10. The “Burning Building”/Frozen Embryo Thought Experiment

[46:10]–[50:46]

• Evan: If you could only save a single born baby versus a tray of embryos, what do you do?
• Lila: Candidly admits she’d save the baby (“That’s not because the embryos are less valuable…”) but this proves nothing about right to life, only our instinct in an emergency.
  • “No directed, intentional killing…is ever justified—you try to save all.” [50:29]
• Argues this analogy doesn't justify abortion ("They’re using it to say: Look, you didn't pick the embryos, therefore abortion's okay. Somehow, no." [50:39])

11. The Limits and Dilemmas of Legal Absolutism

[50:46]–[56:41]

• John and Lila grapple with inherent tragedy and no-perfect-answers nature of the issue.
• John: “I feel like when it comes to abortion…no matter what, this is a tragic situation.”
• Lila: “The abortion is direct and intentional killing…And if you waited a few more months, that baby could live…It should be wrong to murder children inside and outside the womb…We have to say it is never right to intentionally take an innocent human life, no matter the circumstances.” [54:39]
• Expresses fear that broad acceptance of abortion "breeds callousness” for all life.

12. The Moral Framework for a Changing Future

[56:41]–[58:12]

• John highlights growing technological dilemmas in procreation and asks about frameworks.
• Lila references her Catholic conversion—praising Catholic “teachings on human rights, human dignity, sexual morality” as rooted in “human flourishing.”
  • Warns of a “brutal and lawless” future if moral protections for the vulnerable are lost.
  • “Human life is sacred. You cannot kill…or exploit it just because you’re powerful…and that’s the fundamental pro-life position.” [57:43]

13. Closing Reflections

[58:12]–[59:07]

• John applauds Lila for her respectful, principled engagement—even in disagreement:
  • “You’re approaching these conversations with a lot of respect…And I think that’s the way it has to be done to approach some sort of agreed, shared-upon framework.”
• Lila highlights the need for compassion and honest dialogue.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• John (Opening):
  • “While [Charlie Kirk’s] opinions were often controversial, his voicing of them was part of a common project that we shared.” [01:35]
• Lila Rose:
  • “Sometimes the regret [from abortion] happens later in life…The trauma might come out later.” [05:47]
  • “A whole person’s life was snuffed out. And I do think there is trauma deep down that she is living with.” [08:27]
  • “We need to make birth free. I think we need better child subsidies so that moms are given actual cash from the government to be moms…” [12:21]
  • "Sex should be about commitment…it should be about openness to that child that might come into the world." [13:56]
  • "Contraceptives have given people a false sense of security that has actually increased abortions." [17:09]
  • “Having an abortion after a rape does not heal you from the trauma of the rape.” [30:22]
  • “To tell a rape survivor she’s going to feel better after an abortion is a lie. We have no right to say that, first of all. And second…this baby also deserves help, deserves support, this new life.” [35:28]
  • “If you are a human, you have human rights, regardless of how developed your brain might be.” [38:01]
  • “I never have the right, even if they are a burden to me, I never have the right as a parent to kill my offspring, even if they’re a burden to me.” [43:30]
  • “It is never right to intentionally take an innocent human life, no matter the circumstances.” [55:41]
• Jack’s Prince:
  • “You don’t get to speak for my child…You don’t know what my child would be.” [07:03]
• Dana Pelavan:
  • “Abortion care is health care for survivors…So you cannot tell me that there is no circumstance where I don’t make that choice for my body…” [27:07]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Opening & Purpose/Legacy of Surrounded: [00:27]–[02:34]
• Lila’s Reflections: [02:50]–[04:33]
• Heated Dialogue with Jack’s Prince: [05:31]–[07:49]
• Support System Discussion/Social Safety Net: [09:39]–[13:03]
• Cultural Shift/Contraception/Responsibility: [13:03]–[18:14]
• Catholic View on Sex/Natural Family Planning: [18:14]–[21:43]
• Policy Possibilities for Family Support: [21:43]–[24:34]
• Bodily Autonomy & Trauma (Dana’s Exchange): [26:52]–[29:23], [30:09]–[36:46]
• Personhood, Life, and Moral Complexity: [37:18]–[56:41]
• Tragedy & Legal Absoluteness: [50:46]–[56:41]
• Future Moral Challenges & Frameworks: [56:41]–[58:12]
• Closing Reflections: [58:12]–[59:07]

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Tone & Debating Style

• The tone is earnest, emotionally charged, and highly respectful—even in disagreement.
• Lila frames her argument in clear terms, relying on both personal narrative and appeals to objective biology, while remaining sensitive to others’ pain.
• Host John Regalato is empathetic, probing, and candid about his own uncertainties, making space for nuance and the complexity of real-life situations.

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Conclusion:

This episode brings personal narratives, hard data, and philosophical reasoning into sharp focus, highlighting the near-impossibility of consensus but underlining the value of honest, respectful engagement. The conversation is a microcosm of the broader American debate: gut-wrenching, unresolved, but crucial for anyone seeking to understand how (and why) we talk about abortion.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host (John Regalato)]

Is the first episode of the podcast I've recorded since the assassination of Charlie Kirk. He was the first guest ever at the center of Surrounded, and that video today is the most viewed video on Jubilee's channel. We were horrified by his murder, and I was also stunned by the public forgiveness of the man who killed him by his wife, Erica Kirk. We need more of that in this world. I've been working with Jubilee for nearly a decade now, and our work has always been mission driven. That's not to say that we haven't drifted from or fallen short of that mission at times, because we have, and we will not. All of Jubilee's content presses on identity and politics as urgently as Surrounded does, but the videos that do are important and they're impactful because they are a snapshot of our society. They are part of a practice that we remain committed to, and they are intertwined with core values that Jubilee is founded upon and cannot exist without. Freedom of thought, freedom of speech, honesty, vulnerability, humanity, and empathy. We reject the violence that was used to silence Charlie Kirk. While his opinions were often controversial, his voicing of them was part of a common project that we shared. We believe in a society where people must come together peacefully and use words to address their differences. As challenging as that may be, our thoughts go out to the family of Charlie Kirk, all of those who loved him, anyone who witnessed his murder, as well as anyone in the world right now whose voice is being silenced. And we ask that our leaders remain committed to an open society that embraces debate and humanity over violence and dehumanization. Thanks for listening. Let's get into today's episode. Our guest today is Lila Grace Rose. She is a pro life activist who debated 25 pro choice activists earlier this year on Surrounded. We're going to react to some of the most heated and interesting interactions that occurred.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

In her episode, we discussed the Catholic.

[Podcast Host (John Regalato)]

Approach to sex and reproduction, whether or not life begins at conception, as well as her controversial vision of a world without abortions. So without further ado, here's our conversation.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Lila, welcome to the Surrounded Follow up, I want to dig into some highlights and some of the discussions from your episode. Your episode of Surrounded. You were one of the first guests. I can't remember if you were the second episode, but you were definitely one of the earliest episodes. And I'm just curious, you know, there's been some months that have passed since you've done it, and I just kind of wanted to hear from you before we dig into any highlights, what were your thoughts going into it and what have your thoughts been after the experience and just seeing it, you know, kind of disseminated across the Internet.

[Lila Grace Rose]

I thought it was great. I thought it was awesome of Jubilee to put together a group of people who disagreed but were willing to dialogue with somebody that they disagreed with. I was honored to get to represent the pro life position and the rights of all human beings. You know, being the person who was surrounded and, you know, in the aftermath, I was really blown away by how many people came up to me afterwards, people who watched the episode and were encouraged by it, they were inspired by it, they maybe heard the new point of view for the first time on life and the value of unborn lives, and they were very moved. And I remember after the conversation, one of the girls came up to me and said, kind of whispered in my ear, this was one of the women who was at the Surrounded event. And she said to me, you know, I actually agree with you. And so I think that was really compelling too, that the dialogue that we were able to have helped change a mind on life and the value of human life.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Yeah, and it's obviously a divisive issue. As far back as I can remember, I'm 36 and so born in 89. I can remember as far as back as my political kind of consciousness goes, that abortion has been divisive and a very complicated and difficult thing to discuss in public, but very strongly held beliefs on both sides. And so I, I thought it was very valuable. I. I know there are some moments that everybody has seen from the episode that are, you know, maybe the spiciest, but I thought this discussion had a lot of really interesting nuance to it. And so I want to dig into your claims. And this was maybe the most heated moment I can recall, but it's really interesting, kind of the story that they share with you. So let's, let's kind of refresh our memories and then we'll react.

[Jack's Prince (Pro-Choice Activist)]

If I had carried a term, I would be labeled a drug addicted black mother. And if I had kept the baby, I would have been labeled a incompetent single mother. So my question for you is, what is your perception of how I should feel about my abortion?

[Lila Grace Rose]

So a couple things. First of all, sometimes the regret happens later in life. It's not within even five or 10 years. The trauma they feel might come out later when they have their own other children or grandchildren. So every woman, it's gonna be different. Sometimes it's immediate, sometimes it takes years. I mean, I think you're amazing. I think if that's what you've overcome in your life, I think that's incredible and you should be proud of overcoming so many tough things in your life. It does break my heart that if you're sharing you had an abortion, that there could be a child. I don't know how old. They'd be 10 years old today who would be cheering you on, saying, go get him, Mom. You got this.

[Jack's Prince (Pro-Choice Activist)]

I can promise you that would not be the case because I can almost promise you that would not be the case because I say again, I'm in a domestic violence shelter. I've got a dog I can barely take care of. Excuse me? You're expecting me to sit here and let you tell me how I'm supposed to feel? You're trying to scare me.

[Lila Grace Rose]

I'm not telling you.

[Jack's Prince (Pro-Choice Activist)]

Yes, you are.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Yes, you are.

[Jack's Prince (Pro-Choice Activist)]

Not telling you how to feel with.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Your statistics, but I am telling you that your favorite.

[Jack's Prince (Pro-Choice Activist)]

Your statistics and your information with your statistics maybe had a right to live. You are completely wrong because.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Yes, and I wish someone had been helping you more. Listen, that's the other thing.

[Jack's Prince (Pro-Choice Activist)]

Listen.

[Lila Grace Rose]

But you weren't there. That's how everybody always likes to say.

[Jack's Prince (Pro-Choice Activist)]

Oh, keep the baby. Give it up for adoption. I know what our foster care system.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Is like, but when you told me.

[Jack's Prince (Pro-Choice Activist)]

I would have a child cheering me.

[Lila Grace Rose]

When you place a child for adoption.

[Jack's Prince (Pro-Choice Activist)]

Hold on.

[Lila Grace Rose]

You're not going to foster care.

[Jack's Prince (Pro-Choice Activist)]

You don't get to speak for my child. You don't get to speak for my child. Let's start right there. You don't get to speak for my child saying, oh, mommy would be cheering you on. Everything like that. You don't know that. You don't know that at all. You don't know what my child would be. I may not even have my child because I was so unfit at the time. Drug addiction, sex work, everything like that. Yes, I'm a proud pro ho. That is exactly what I do. But you're telling me how my child would feel and what gives you the right? What gives you the right?

[Lila Grace Rose]

I would love to respond to you. I would love to respond to you. I think, yes, your child had a right to life. And I would say that there are. I wish there were more people helping you at the time. It sounds like you were at a really rough time in your life, and I think that you mattered, that baby mattered, and you both deserved more help. That's what I would say.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Jumping right in. A lot to absorb there. What are your thoughts, Lila? Just reliving that moment.

[Lila Grace Rose]

It's so sad, John. It's so sad because I think a lot of people in the comment section, I remember afterwards was saying, see, they're proving her point that abortion is wounding because of even the emotional responses that. That she is just eliciting people getting so angry or so hurt because that was a life, that was a son or daughter that is no longer with us. And, you know, I think Jack's prints like some of her comments about, well, I was going through so horrible. Such. Such a horrible situation. Right. And she was. It sounds like she was going through the worst situation. And I was trying to explain to her, you know, if you felt you were not able to parent. There are truly 2 million couples right now wanting to adopt. You know, the numbers say up to 2 million couples. Certainly in the hundreds of thousands of couples who would love to adopt a baby, they don't. The babies don't go into foster care. They go to a family. And the birth mom can actually pick the family that she wants. She can have as little or as much interaction as she wants with that family, with that baby in the future based on the parameters she sets. But that. That would have been another option for Jax. And I think the. The fact that she didn't. For whatever reasons at the time, she didn't know about that option or she wasn't given enough support to be able to explore that option, and instead she chose abortion. It's. It's devastating because a whole person's life was snuffed out. And I do think there is trauma deep down that she is living with. The most important thing is that the child's life was snuffed out. But I do think that it is damaging to women, and I think that conversation showed that.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

I definitely felt there was a lot of pain there. For sure. It was a painful thing to discuss, and I thought you both were doing your best to handle it sensitively, and I appreciated what she shared. A question I have for you, you know, because I'm trying to educate myself around the statistics. And so, yes, there are a lot of parents who are on wait lists for adoption. And so that's certainly an option for somebody who finds themselves in an unwanted pregnancy in a difficult. Under difficult circumstances. When we think about the scope of, you know, I know, I know your mission is to eliminate abortion entirely. And when we think about where unwanted pregnancies occur, the most, unfortunately, they do occur, I think, primarily in people who are in lower socioeconomic statuses or circumstances. And so the reality of eliminating abortion is a lot of babies born into the reality that Jack's prince was describing. And so when you envision your goal, you know, what. What is your hope? What are. What do you think is necessary if we were to eliminate abortion, to grasp with that reality that so many humans would be born into difficult circumstances? Because I also know that a large percentage of women who do carry children to term choose to keep the child. And so I think that's something I struggle with, is what it. What would need to be done to accommodate, you know, that. That. That population that would be very vulnerable.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Yeah, it's a very good question, John. And there's a few things I think. Number one, I do think we need to improve our social safety net and also, in a way, market it so people know what exists. I remember doing a debate a couple of years ago now with a woman who had an abortion. She wasn't in the same socioeconomic, maybe, status as Jack's. I think she had gone to college and things like that. But she was really struggling, you know, she was still really struggling. And she didn't know about the pregnancy resource centers that provide free health care, free baby resources that can even help with adoption placement, all of these things, if that's the choice the mom makes. She didn't even know about that. She said no one was there to help me pay my bills, help me with diapers. And those organizations exist, and there are thousands of pregnancy resource centers, more than there are abortion clinics that provide free confidential care to moms and babies in need and give away hundreds of millions of dollars of free supplies every single year to moms and babies in need. So shoring up that social safety net, making sure moms know it exists. Right, Is part of the battle. And I do think the government should fund that social safety net more. Instead of funding abortion clinics, they should fund their social safety net of supporting moms and young families who need help with their children. I think we need to make birth free. I think we need better child subsidies so that moms are given actual cash from the government to be moms and not have to you know, go schlep off to a job, but can do the most important work of being there for their kids. So those are all some things on the social safety net front. But here's the other part of this. You know, pregnancy doesn't just happen out of nowhere, like you're walking down the street and shoot, you get pregnant.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Pregnancy happens because of activities that adults choose to enter into, which is sex.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

And I think that that's actually another taboo topic. I think the other message societally that we need to get across, there needs to be a culture shift around sex. Because I think there since the sexual revolution, since the 1960s and 70s, there has been this mindset with American adults that sex is something that you get to do on your own terms as long as it's safe. You know, we use a condom or whatever, make sure there's consent, and then you're. It's whatever you want as an adult that you pick your moral code. No big deal. The reality is sex not every time, but many times brings new life into the world. The reason we have the abortion issue of a million abortions a year in this country is because adults were engaging in activities that can bring life into the world and they were not ready for the consequences of those activities, which is children.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

And so I think if we shifted our mindset culturally, instead of sex is about my adult pleasure, my experience, whatever I want. And instead it says sex has a moral code that is built in, which has to do with the fact it brings life into the world. It's. Sex should be about commitment, it should be about love, it should be about openness to that child that might come into the world. Not every time, but sometimes.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

And if we instead practice more self control as a society to say, listen, we don't, we don't celebrate sex outside of marriage, we don't celebrate sex however we want to do it as adults are. It's all up to me. Instead, we put sex back where it belongs, which is in committed, lifelong relationships that are, yes, preparing for the, for the responsibility of children. We would basically eradicate the abortion rate overnight. So I think that's another message that is very countercultural because a lot of people are like, well, I get to do what I want, don't tell me what to do. And it's like, it's not so much about telling you what to do as it is about the importance of accepting responsibility for your actions. And you choose what to do, but then accept responsibility for your actions. So I think that's Another message that is really important to talk about. And, and I think that's another cultural shift that needs to happen along with getting moms more help spreading that message of responsibility for adults.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with the cultural value of seeing sex as sacred, encouraging people to have sex within marriage. I think the pragmatist inside me though acknowledges that that would be kind of a behavior and a value that wouldn't be shared by all Americans. It'd be very unlikely to see all Americans, you know, observe, observe it that way.

[Lila Grace Rose]

So it used to be much more shared, like for sure. So we can't. I mean the thing is culture changes.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

If enough people stand up and behave a certain way and share that, that and, and society changes its expectations, we do change behavior and that's throughout history, you know. So I agree with you. Right now we're not there. But that's what I'm talking about it because we, I think we need to get there as a society to be happier and healthier.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Yeah. And I know there's lots of people who would, who would agree with you there. Something I'm curious about and I can't remember if this came up in the episode. If the goal is preventing abortions, you know, we want to decrease unwanted pregnancies, we want to. Which would ultimately decrease abortions. Are you really supportive of like contraceptives being widely available and accessible as a means to achieve that? I'm curious what your opinion is on that.

[Lila Grace Rose]

It's a very good question. And I think this is another elephant in the room that people have just said. Well, just more contraceptives should solve this.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

If adults are not ready for a baby, they should just use contraception and then we should be okay. The reality is we have more contraceptives than really any other time in human history.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Tax funded contraceptives and they're in every drugstore in America.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

And 50% of the women who get abortions right now were on contraceptives the month that they got pregnant. That's a, that's a statistic from Planned Parenthood's research on Guttmacher institute. A full 50 of the women getting abortions are. We're on using contraceptives. Contraceptives do not solve the issue of adults behaving in a way that doesn't accept responsibility. It doesn't solve for that. It doesn't solve the issue of our. A mindset shift that needs to be made about sex. If anything, I would argue that contraceptives give Us a false sense of security. Truly, they say, well, it makes your, it makes that safe sex, safe sex. It makes sex safe. So just use a condom or be on the birth control pill. And then you're being, is actually saying that is responsibility.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

That's not where responsibility is. Responsibility is in treating the person that you are potentially going to engage in sex with, with love, responsibility and commitment, I would say, in a marriage. And then understanding that you might bring life into the world and to be ready to receive that life. And so I think contraceptives have given people a false sense of security that has actually increased abortions. We've had more contraceptives in the last 50 years and more abortions in the last 50 years and they've gone hand in hand. So I think the solution isn't contraception. I think the solution is a change in our worldview and our behavior around sex, which I understand that's going to take some work, but I think it's possible. I think people were made for more and I think sex should be made sacred again and that would make everybody happier and our relationship so much healthier and it would save a tremendous amount of future lives.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Something. This is a little bit of an aside. I come from a Catholic family and I recall a mindset in older generations being that sex was for procreation. My mom was one of 12 children and my dad was one of eight children. So I feel like that was somewhat. It was pretty closely observed by my grandparents. But I'm curious, is your mindset aligned with that or do you believe that married couples can still have. Have sex for pleasure and not in the. For the purpose of procreation?

[Lila Grace Rose]

Yeah. So first off, I'll, I'll say I'm a realist. I, I look at how sex is actually designed. It's not even a question yet of morality. It's a question of what. Of reality. Sex is designed to do two things. Largely speaking. It does bring incredible pleasure and, and it can bring incredible bonding between people.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

So it is designed it for pleasure, obviously, and it's designed for bonding. You know, the hormones that it releases, the connectivity it releases between two people is beautiful. And that is one of the reasons why hookup culture, I think is so harmful emotionally, not just physically for people, because they're bonding.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Physio physically, and I believe even spiritually. And then they're ripping apart from each other like the one night stand or being together and then separating. It's very painful because there is a spiritual relationship with sex that is makes it pleasurable and unifying with another person. Sex is also designed for procreation. Not every sexual act will bring life into the world. Obviously a woman's fertility window is only a few days a month.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

But it can bring life into the world. So if you look at those two realities about sex, that it's designed for procreation and it's designed for unity, being unitive to between two people, then I think those are the two purposes of sex. So I do think sex is designed in part for pleasure. And I think that's a beautiful thing. But not just pleasure, all about what I want, my pleasure. It's designed about pleasure with another person where you're loving them and it's not just about using them.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

It's not about using them at all. You. And it's designed to be open to life where you may receive children from this act. And that should be something you're preparing for.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right?

[Lila Grace Rose]

So I think it's both. I think that it in a marriage you should be open to life and you should be as loving and you know, have the best sex life possible. I think sex is, is amazing, but they have to go together. And one more thing, I'll say that doesn't mean every time you have sex you bring life into the world. I know, I've said that multiple times. So, so you sometimes are having sex when you're not able to conceive because it's not the woman's fertile window. But that sex is still beautiful because it's bringing two people together. It's a way to show love with one another. But you're still not artificially clamping it down to say, oh, I'm not going to have a baby because it's just not naturally able to have a baby because the woman's not fertile. So already built into a woman's reproductive cycle are periods of time where she's not fertile, where you can still have sex, have pleasure, have amazing experience, love each other. And that's why I'm a big proponent to proponent, proponent to a fertility awareness or natural family planning where you say, listen, if you're, if you're a married couple and you're like, okay, we just had a baby, there's a health issue, or we want a space before the next baby, you know, because we are, you know, figuring out our finances or whatever and we're going to, we're going to space six months or we're going to space a year, whatever it is. You can use the natural built in cycles of the woman's body through natural family planning to avoid having sex during the fertile periods and then be together when you're not fertile. And that can be a natural way to space children.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

As opposed to again, contraception or you know, sex outside of marriage or all the other pathways that our culture currently advocates for. Basically.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Yeah, cycle tracking is for sure helpful. I was educated on that with my wife. But that aside, I want to rewind back to Jack's prints a bit. You know, a lot of the social safety nets that you're advocating for, you know, money for moms from the government, just more financial support, more, more resources.

[Lila Grace Rose]

And dads, by the way, I should have said that to moms and dads. So that, yeah, cash credit I think should be for both.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

But yeah, yeah, I, you know, rewinding back to, to Jack's prince's experience and you know, had they known or had she known about, you know, know, resources available to her or had she had much more resources available to her, her decision might have been different. We, we don't know that for sure. But just assuming that, that, that could be a. So what is the likelihood that you think this administration or, or a future administration, the near future, I don't know, would, would actually make that a reality where there are more resources available? Because that's something I hear a lot is that this is a low priority for the government. This is something that we, we don't usually see prioritized by the US Government. Do you have hope or information or knowledge on that?

[Lila Grace Rose]

Yeah, I mean I see, I think I've seen it on the left and I definitely see it on the right and advocating for child cash credits. So I do think that could be a bipartisan policy. I think making birth free could also be a bipartisan policy potentially.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

And I think what would that look like?

[Lila Grace Rose]

I think that's where you don't have to pay medical bills for birth. So you make birth free and that's. It is a government funded. Being able to give birth without, you know, going into debt is a government funded policy. And I think another one that this is maybe something more the right would support but the left might not support because of politics, which is tragic in my view is. Is funding pregnancy resource centers. So I think if the government partners with non profits that are very based on community, that are basically run by the community and they support those non profits, I think instead of supporting abortion clinics, which is what they currently do, so a lot of states fund abortion directly like my state of California and then planned parenthood was receiving. It's still receiving some money but it was receiving over half of a billion dollars from federal tax payers. Federal tax dollars that was just defunded for only one year. But they're going to try to get the money back next year. I would say redirect that money instead to pregnancy resource centers.

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[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Great. Yeah, I do think it, you know, framing the issue around resources to mothers and maybe away from abortion, like there is probably bipartisan paths there. So I appreciate that.

[Lila Grace Rose]

I'm hopeful too.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Yeah, I want to jump to the next clip, but thank you for all of that. So this is going to be with Dana. And Dana, you, you asked Dana to come back at the end of the episode. You had a great conversation with her. And this was still, I think this was in the, this was in the context of your claim abortion cannot be justified under any circumstances. And so then the topic of bodily autonomy came up. And so we can jump into that after, after we watch this.

[Dana Pelavan]

Hi, my name is Dana Pelavan.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Dana, nice to meet you.

[Dana Pelavan]

So I am the executive director of one of the oldest rape crisis centers here in the nation. And one of the things that I need you to understand is that abortion care is health care for survivors and it also gives them the options that they need in order to move forward after they have had so many choices that have been taken away from them. So let's remind ourselves that most women who have been assaulted, women know they're assaulters. One in 20 women who have bad pregnancies have had pregnancies that result from assault. In addition, one in four women have had abortions. So these are women who are making these choices because they need to make these choices. And when you say to someone who has already had choices taken away from them that in addition to I have had my body violated, I have had my choices taken from me, that I then have to carry a child to birth and then have my life put in danger. And reminding ourselves that as a black woman, as a black woman, I have a higher rate of death in our society just by birthing. So I am putting my life in danger just to carry a child that has resulted from an assault. So you cannot tell me that there is no circumstance where I don't make that choice for my body and for the tissues that are in my body. There is always a space for me to make a choice for what is going to happen to my body.

[Lila Grace Rose]

I'd love to respond if I may. First of all, we are aligned. That is absolutely horrific. We're aligned on that. And part of the work at Live Action is we do interview survivors of sexual assault, and we talk to survivors of sexual assault as well as children conceived via sexual assault. That's part of their story. And we're aligned. That it's absolutely horrific. Where it sounds like we're not aligned is that I don't believe that two wrongs make a right. That if there is a horrific act of an assault. If I may just explain my position here. If there's a horrific act of assault, a rape and a pregnancy results and a new life is conceived, that ending that new life, giving that new human being the death penalties. No, no. The only thing that.

[Dana Pelavan]

There has been a fertilization of an egg.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

And I think shortly after that, flags came up and you guys had to stop that conversation. You picked it back up at the end. And the debate kind of migrated more towards the beginning of life. And I. I want to get into that, but just with bodily autonomy. Pregnancies that result from rape, sexual assault, this is obviously not as common, but it is something that happens. Could be tens of thousands of women dealing with a reality like this every year. Is that. Is that something do you feel conflicted about? I guess the reality those women would have to face if they all had to carry those pregnancies to terminate.

[Lila Grace Rose]

So rape is devastating. I mean, that. I think there's a. We recoil at the very thought of it because it's so just, it's so horrific and somebody who survives that, it's, it's devastating for them. It's deeply traumatic and wounding. And the argument here is, okay, well, and this is what I hear a lot from people who are saying, abortion should be legal. Abortion is good in some cases at least is, well, what about rape? What about incest? And I think the first thing that's so important to say is that just from the woman's vantage point, having an abortion after a rape does not heal you from the trauma of the rape. I think we get really worked up, as we should, about the evil of rape. But then we sort of put, we're looking for a solution, right? We're looking for somebody to somehow solve what such a horrible situation. And so we say, well, abortion, abortion can be a solution, right? But it's not a solution. It actually doesn't solve anything because what it does is it's another act of violence against a new developing life who was totally innocent. They're not responsible for the crimes of their father. They are a new, innocent human life that deserves life. And you're also doing a secondary act of violence against that woman. Because this idea that abortion is some, you know, you wish the baby away is not true. You have to deliver that baby. An abortion procedure always delivers the baby. It just delivers the baby dead. And so I think what we should instead shift to is how do we help and love and care for that, that woman, give her the best support that she can possibly be given, counseling, health care. But we don't take out the crime, the punishment for the crime on that baby. We give that baby a chance to live and we accompany that mother as best we can through giving that baby enough of a shot at life. And maybe there's an early delivery later in order to get that baby, you know, an option to live, but you don't kill the baby. And we interview a lot of women who are survivors and children who are conceived in rape. Rebecca Keesling, I might have mentioned her in the Jubilee interview, I don't remember, but in the Surrounded episode. But she was conceived in rape and her mother tried to abort her. It was a violent rape against her mother. Her mother tried to abort her. Her mother was unable to because it was right before abortion was legal. So she tried to get a back alley abortion. She Wasn't able to do it. She ended up delivering Rebecca and years. And placed her for adoption. And years later, she would write a letter to Rebecca saying, I'm so glad that abortion was illegal, because as painful as the whole thing was, you know, especially the rape, that's the most devastating thing. You are now given the chance to live. And if the law hadn't prevented me, I would have taken. Had your life taken.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

We need to change the conversation around this. I think instead of saying, oh, abortion is a rape is a justification for abortion, we should talk about better penalties for rape, holding rapists accountable, better support for rape survivors and, and, and giving them everything that they could, we can possibly give them, and then protecting this innocent third party, which is the, which is this new human life, and not resorting to violence against that new human life to somehow try to solve the original violence of the rape, because it doesn't. Abortion does not take away rape. It doesn't solve rape. It doesn't heal trauma. It just adds more trauma on top of the original trauma of the rape.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

I can completely understand when you, if you believe that life begins at conception, that's when a human life begins. I can completely understand that you have to be morally consistent and protect that life. I can also completely understand the mindset around, hey, like, an abortion is not necessarily going to be a healing experience. It's not going to heal you from the trauma of an already horrible experience. That all makes sense to me. I think when I start to think about this on a more like, larger societal scale, you know, if this is a reality where we, we. We outlaw abortions entirely, even in these circumstances that comes with this sort of grim reality that we are forcing young women as young as 12, if they are saying they don't want to carry this pregnancy to terminate, we're essentially forcing them to do that. Is that, do you feel any sense of conflict around that?

[Lila Grace Rose]

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's devastating.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

The. One of the reasons rape is so horrific is that it can bring life into the world and you're doing it in this violent way against a woman, against her will. So, yeah, I mean, the whole thing is devastating. It's horrible, but again, it's tragic and in horrible tragedies and injustices.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right?

[Lila Grace Rose]

It's like, what do you do in the aftermath? Because there's gonna be so much hurt that you have to navigate, so much pain you're navigating. And the aftermath can't be that you take another life that we say as a society, you know, oh, you suffered this trauma, so it's okay. We're gonna be okay with killing this life now because of the trauma you suffered. We gotta help her, we gotta love her, we gotta give her care and counseling. And I, I do think it's encouraging to note, you know, in the research that I've done, the rape survivors I've talked to, it's the rare 10, 11, 12 year old you talked about, these very young victims of who survive horrific you rape that they wake up and they said, the one thing I want is an abortion. Give me an abortion. Now, usually abortion isn't even in their vocabulary. They're just incredibly devastated and wounded from this trauma of being assaulted.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right?

[Lila Grace Rose]

And you navigate them and you help them and you care for them and you give them counseling and support. And we take abortion off the table, say, well, good, there's this little get out of, you know, get out of this pain card. If you just pull this card, abortion, you're going to be better. That's a lie. First of all, to tell a rape survivor she's going to feel better after an abortion is a lie. We have no right to say that, first of all. And second of all, to take it off the table. Instead of as a society saying, oh, rape survivor needs an abortion. Instead we say, rape survivor deserves support, deserves help, deserves counseling, deserves health care. This baby also deserves help, deserves support, this new life. And that becomes the conversation. I think we're going to see a lot more healing than we see now around the devastation of rape and sexual abuse. And then I think the other part of it is holding rapists and abusers to giving them more penalties. I think, you know, you read these crazy stories of out on bail or, you know, they get 10 years and then they're out on the streets and they reoffend. I think we do need life sentences for sexual abusers. I don't think we should. You know, I do not support the death penalty. I'm opposed to the death penalty penalty, but I. And interestingly, federal law opposes death penalty for rape, which is another reason why it's so crazy we give the death penalty to the unborn baby.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right?

[Lila Grace Rose]

But I do think we need longer prison sentences for rapists.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

I want to move on to your next claim. And this is more around the issue of, you know, where does life begin? There was a lot of debate. You know, you would say, that's a baby. They would say, no, that's an embryo or that's a clump of cells. This is a huge part of the Debate and the discussion. I personally feel there's some intellectual dishonesty that I see sometimes here. So I think it's really important to hit on this. So I'm going to pull up a clip. Yeah. The claim was every unborn child has a right to life.

[I]

So I want to be clear with the terms here. When you say they're a human, I'm agreeing that even a fertilized egg is a human, is a person that should be given equality.

[Lila Grace Rose]

So are you saying that a person with a brain developmental disorder, like a significant development, you're talking about anencephaly, for example, as an example, that they would not be a person, it's okay to kill that person?

[I]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Then what are you saying?

[I]

As I said earlier, when there's a potential life, a partial life, you still give it some value. You have to take reasonable steps to protect it. If someone's born.

[Lila Grace Rose]

So what steps would you give it.

[I]

To if someone's born with anencephaly? There's no conflict there between the bodily autonomy of a woman and the person with anencephaly. The reason you do an abortion is not like, oh, I want to kill this fetus for fun. There's a conflict between the woman's bodily autonomy and the fetus developing. If there's some way to resolve that and respect both parties, that would be great. But we don't have that kind of medical technology.

[Lila Grace Rose]

So the prolific position is that if you are a human, you have human rights, regardless of how developed your brain might be. Because some people have severe developmental disabilities, and that doesn't make them less of a human or they have less strength.

[I]

I never said that it does.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Well, your argument actually infers that it does, actually, because it's saying that this particular level of developmental ability that your brain may have gives you, which exists.

[I]

By the way, in pretty much anyone other than people, then encephaly, those people usually die in a couple days.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Is it okay to kill that person before they die naturally? Because they lack this if they're still.

[I]

In the womb or after birth.

[Lila Grace Rose]

But what if they're. Okay, let's take your scenario. What if they're after birth and they lack the specific connections that you're saying? Define person. Sure.

[I]

They only have a brain stem, usually.

[Lila Grace Rose]

And they're after birth. There's a little boy named Jasper. He lived almost, I think, three, four years with a severe condition, a developmental condition in his brain.

[I]

It's not okay to kill that.

[Lila Grace Rose]

But why would it not be okay to kill them when they lack the specific brain connection that you're saying makes it okay to kill the baby.

[I]

The reason that it makes. The reason it's okay to kill the Fetus prior to 22 weeks is not because it's just good enough itself. It's because it's the only way to resolve the conflict between the bodily autonomy of the woman and the fetus. If someone's born with anencephaly, their existence is not impeding on the bodily autonomy of anyone else. And then you want to take all reasonable steps to help that person, not harm that person.

[Lila Grace Rose]

I think we agree on bodily autonomy to a degree, because I agree that I have bodily autonomy, you have bodily autonomy, but I think my bodily autonomy ends when another human being's bodily autonomy begins.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

So what I liked about what Adam was bringing to the discussion, I think he was the only person I heard bring up this idea of the conflict between the mother's bodily autonomy and the life of the fetus. And I think this is where there's maybe the most gray area, maybe the most potential for compromise is just how we are interpreting the personhood of the fetus, the embryo along development. Why do you believe that it begins at conception? What's the source of your belief?

[Lila Grace Rose]

Sure. So the life begins, human life begins at the moment of fertilization. It's not my opinion. There are virtually any biology or science textbook that discusses human development will talk about that moment of fertilization as the moment that a single cel embryo comes into existence. And, you know, we know this sort of in Ivan, our, you know, everyday conversation around fertility and. And life and abortion. If you look at the conversation of ivf, the IVF technician is trying to create what, an embryo, right? Then they go, oh, we've got an embryo. They don't even say fertilized egg. They say it's an embryo. We've got 10 embryos for you, you know, whatever. And they know when life begins, just like the scientists or the human biologist knows when life begins. It begins at sperm egg fusion. And so that's not my opinion. That is a established fact. So then the question becomes, well, is that human embryo worthy of protection?

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

That is really the question. And then, you know, Adam got into this a little bit.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Is it a citizen? You know, protect.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Yeah. Do they have human rights? Should they be protected from the violence of abortion? Really? That's what the conversation's about. Should they be protected from being killed intentionally and directly via an abortion? Of course I say no, that's that's against their. Violates their fundamental right to exist. But, you know, Adam kind of. It was interesting because he kind of did. Was kind of doing two different arguments, trying, but they kind of actually contradicted each other. Because on the one hand, he's kind of debating, I think, when life begins, but then he's acknowledging that his standard for life, you know, is brain waves or these other standards he can't really hold consistently because you have a born child that is lacking severe developmental abilities, right, because it has a disability. And he's still saying it's not okay to kill that baby. But then he flips over to, well, the burden on the mother is less because she's not carrying her in utero, that baby. In utero, the baby's ex utero. So, you know, other people could theoretically care for that child. Again, he didn't say all of this, but this is, I think, his. His position here. That's why even a human that is very. That has severe developmental disabilities post birth, we still protect that life. But even that. That embryo before birth, because they are, you know, a burden on the mother, the mother has this autonomy, then their rights are in conflict, then it's okay to kill. I bring that up because I think what he is ultimately acknowledging, Adam, even in this conversation effectively, and I think what has to be acknowledged is humans are humans. There's different levels of development, different levels of brain development, different levels of bodily development, brain activity, et cetera. But you are a member of the human species. You have human parents. The law of biogenesis states, how do you know what member of a species someone is? You look at who the parents are. With an unborn single cell embryo, you know, who the parents were, you know, typically, right? You can say this is a father, and a mother has a father and a mother. They are offspring. Fetus means child in Latin, right? So this is a human. It's a human life. They are alive. They are developing. So the question is, should they be protected? And when you get into this question of the mother's rights, I do believe, of course, a mother has rights. All humans have human rights, especially, you know, including women, of course. But I never have the right, even if they are a burden to me. I never have the right as a parent to kill my offspring, even if they're a burden to me. And this is true both before birth and after birth. And I've actually, I did a debate recently with this Georgetown professor. You know, I think that's. She was actually William and Mary. I forget the school but we were at Georgetown debating anyways. She was advocating for abortion because of women's bodily autonomy. That was her justification. Women have total bodily autonomy, so they should be able to kill the baby whenever they want, abort whenever they want, because they have total bodily autonomy. And we were discussing newborns, and, you know, I've had three babies. I've had three newborns. And the incredible responsibility a newborn is right. As a mother, you are 100% being available to that newborn to clothe the newborn, feed the newborn, get the newborn to sleep. You're using your body, the body. The baby's not connected to you directly, but it kind of is when it's nursing anyways, you're using your body. And in our society, we require parents to use their bodies to care for their born children. And if you don't use your body to care for your born child, you can be charged with criminal neglect. And I similarly, I think parents have responsibility. A mother special, you know, in a unique way, to use her body when the baby is unborn, to allow that baby to be born. And then if she can't take the responsibility post birth, there's an, an adoption. She can even drop the baby off in a safe box, you know, at a, at a fire station and have zero responsibility after that. But you at least have the responsibility to not kill that baby and to let that baby have a chance to, to live.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Yeah. Anyone who's had a child, you know, knows that really you have very little bodily autonomy after they're born. But I guess the reason. What was interesting about Adam, and I don't necessarily know if I have the language for this, sure. I, I thought Adam was laying out an interesting argument which was, you know, the conditions of pregnancy are just unique among all human conditions. It's just, it's. It's an exceptional circumstance where there are, you know, at a certain point, the baby can survive outside of the womb, but in the earlier stages there is a dependency and the mother is a host for this other life form. And so that's where I think it introduces all of these complexities. And so later on, Evan brought up this argument that if we see all human life, you know, from conception on as equal as, as it all endowed with the rights, you know, to live, he brought up this hypothetical and you conceded to it. I just thought it was interesting. I wanted to hear more of your thoughts about it. He's like, I have a tray of fetuses, of frozen fetuses or frozen embryos. And then I have a lot, you Know, like a born baby and somebody's going to shoot that baby. It was a terrible hypothetical.

[Lila Grace Rose]

If I want to save, in your analogy, this newborn baby from being shot, I think is what your analogy is, which is obviously horrible. Or save this tray of embryos, human embryos who are in the in vitro fertilization clinic. Yeah, I probably would pick. I would pick that newborn baby. That's not because the embryos are less valuable.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

So then you've just contradicted yourself because you said that you prefer a world in which there are less rights violations, but that would be a world in which there are more rights violations under your. Your exact worldview, because you conceded earlier.

[I]

That at the moment of conception we.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

All have an equal right to life. I thought it was nice that you were honest and answered him. I just wonder if you could expand on that.

[Lila Grace Rose]

I'd love to. And a couple things, too. You said you made a comment pregnancy is, is exceptional.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

It's this very unique relationship. There's nothing else like it in nature. You know how incredibly responsible that mother is for that baby. That baby's using her body to exist, to grow.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right?

[Lila Grace Rose]

That is true. That's a fact. I would say the pregnancy is actually very natural. We all come into the world this way, right? So it's not like, oh, this is this crazy thing that happens. It's, it's, it's everybody's story, and there are responsibilities and rights associated with it. And, and this is why, you know, in our country, and I think this is a good thing, men have to pay child support, even for a baby that they didn't choose, they didn't plan, whatever, maybe they would have wanted an abortion. They still pay child support support. That is a unique relationship with men having to pay child support because it shows there is a difference. The woman has to carry that child.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

She's actually bringing that child into the world. The man should have a role to play in, in providing support. And I think child support should actually start in utero. I think it should not start at birth. I think it should start because she is doing full caretaking for that child right before the baby's born. But to that scenario. Yeah, yeah. I mean, around the clock. Yeah, to the scenario you mentioned, though, about the, you know, well, if there was a tray of embryos, frozen embryos, Right. And then there is this baby who's crying and there's a fire. Who do you save? And I said, well, I run to the baby who's crying. And that's not because the babies who are the frozen embryos should be killed. It's not because I want them to die. It's not because they aren't valuable. It's because those, I mean, one argument kind of philosophically, you can make those babies who are in frozen in vitro, they belong to be safe in a mother's body. They don't belong in a deep freeze in a fertility clinic. That's one of the reasons I'm a post ivf, by the way, because I think you put babies in very unsafe conditions and you shouldn't do that. It's outside of the natural order. There's a lot of other issues with it, but I'm going to ask that. So thank you and we can talk more about that. But I'd run to the baby because me running to those embryos, I'm not in the position to be able to save. Even if I grab those embryos, they were frozen and now are they even in free, Are they going to thaw? You know, they're not in a, they're not in a way that I can go, oh, let me take them home and feed them and, you know, change their diaper. Like, I, I don't even know if I could save their life even if I got them out of the fire, right? That baby who's crying, I know I can take care of that baby, right? I know I can run to that baby. Similarly, if there was three, three men in the fire and there was a baby crying, and in the moment of decision I had to pick who do I save, those three men or the baby? I'd still probably run to the baby. Not because I want three men to die, not because I don't value those men's life, not because even the baby is, you know, in terms of a legal system, more valuable than the men. It's because that baby is crying. And I, and I. My instinct is to go rush to that baby. So I think that if that question is supposed to illustrate why it's okay to kill some babies who are unborn, it doesn't do that at all. It only accomplishes what our instinct might be in a moment of, of emergency. And the, the reality that in a tragedy, you do your best you can, but you can't. In this scenario, I'm not allowed to save everybody, even though I would try, right? It doesn't say that these men or these, you know, frozen embryos have less value or it's okay to kill them, right? Because the scenario is being used to justify abortion. That's the thing. This Isn't a scenario just like, for fun, let's talk about a thought experiment. They're using it to say, look, you didn't, you didn't pick the embryos, therefore abortions, okay? Somehow, no directed, intentional killing of the men, of the embryos, of the baby, of anyone, is always wrong. You can give me any scenario you want. I will try to save all of them. But in my instinct, would I, would I save my child over somebody else's child? Maybe. Maybe I'd probably run to my child first. Does that mean that that person, Other person's child isn't as valuable? Of course not.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right.

[Lila Grace Rose]

So we try to save everybody. I hate these scenarios because I'm always like, I will try to save them.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Nobody likes, nobody likes answering these questions. Questions.

[Lila Grace Rose]

But it doesn't prove abortions.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Okay?

[Lila Grace Rose]

Is the point like, they're trying to use it to somehow prove that some of these humans should have less legal status than others. And it doesn't prove that.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

So I totally hear you and I, I appreciate your answer to that because that makes sense. I mean, even in the circumstance of like, the three men and the crying baby, I think most humans are going to go for the crying baby. There's a sense of innocence there, a more visceral sense of helplessness. Yeah. And so that makes perfect sense. I think something you did bring up, though, is no matter what, it's a tragedy. It's a tragedy that I'm having to choose. It's a tragedy that these people might die versus these, and I'm having to make a difficult choice where someone like me who's very in the middle of the road on this issue and honestly subject to change frequently. I feel like when it comes to abortion, that's just sort of part of the, the framing. No matter what, this is a tragic situation, an unfortunate reality of existence. And so we are put in a position to make very, very difficult choices. One of those choices being outlawing it entirely. But then, you know, like we talked about earlier, women who are raped, having to carry those pregnancies to terminate. That's something that's really hard to fathom, at least for me. But then on the flip side, allowing abortions to be too casually thought of diminishes kind of the significance of pregnancy or even diminishes, I think, a societal practice of, I think, being responsible. And so somewhere, I feel like in the middle is probably where I land, where, like, we need to treat sex seriously, we need to treat human life seriously. But also, it feels impossible to eliminate this Tragic circumstance of human reality. And so what's the best kind of middle ground? That. That as a society, as, like, a legal society, through laws that we can construct to. To protect the innocent, but also to not condemn the poor and vulnerable to even worse circumstances. And so, yeah, I think that analogy kind of brings that up for me, where it's like, no matter what abortion doesn't, I don't think it'd be rare for people to say, like, I want as many abortions as possible. I think we all or most people would agree we want to reduce unwanted pregnancies, we want to reduce abortions. But I have a hard time seeing kind of a solution in the absolutes.

[Lila Grace Rose]

Yeah, I totally hear what you're saying. I think the big difference, though, between that scenario and what you're describing is in an abortion, you don't like, oh, someone's chasing you down to give you an abortion, and you have to heroically stop them from giving you an abortion. You have to go out and get an abortion. And the abortion is direct and intentional killing of that baby and delivering a dead baby. So I think it would be different if, like, there was coercion and this woman is, like, fighting off this abortion and she's like, okay, well, I'll get it because I'm protecting my life because this guy's trying to kill me or something crazy.

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right?

[Lila Grace Rose]

But no, it's. An abortion is about going out and seeking a procedure that intentionally and directly ends the life of a human being. And if you waited a few more months, that baby could live. You would still deliver the baby like you're delivering the baby in an abortion. The baby's coming out of you the same way the baby would come out of you if the baby was allowed to be born alive. But you're giving the baby a chance at life. And I, When I think about middle ground and I think about the importance of principles we need to be founded on, On. On core values as a society. Core rights. Human rights. If the human right to life isn't first, what good is any other right? If you and I, as innocent human beings, you know, we're not convicted in a court of law and sent off to jail. We are operating our life, and someone comes out, vigilante justice and says, I want you dead and shoots you, Right? We had that right to live. There needs to be consequences that, that, that. That is wrong, that that happened to us. It should be wrong to. To murder you. It should be wrong to murder me. Similarly, even with all of the complications and the Challenges that come with bringing life into the world. It should be wrong to murder children inside and outside of the womb. And I fear for a society. I think our society has gotten increasingly violent and callous towards human life. I think the killing of Charlie Kirk, the murder last week as an example, I think anytime there's a murder, it shows the callousness of human life that exists in our society. And I think abortion is a core part of that callousness. Because instead of treating a new human life with, okay, let's band around and support this mother, help this baby be born, we say, well, just get an abortion. It's legal. It's your choice. If you want to do that, you should do that. No, no, no issue. And we are treating life as cheap, and we're not respecting that first human right, which is life. And if, I think if we want a loving and just society, we have to put her foot down. We have to say it is never right to intentionally take an innocent human life, no matter the circumstances. Doesn't matter how difficult it is, how. How frustrated we are, how much in pain we are, we cannot take an innocent human life. That has to be the red line. And that is for children and humans outside of the womb. And it's for humans, children inside of the womb, too.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

Yeah, I respect. I respect your opinion on that. And, and, you know, as I think about the future of procreation, it's going to get pretty crazy. I mean, with some of the medical technology coming around. And so no matter where the line needs to be or what, ultimately we're going to need some sort of framework, I think, to face that future head on, because I think these moral dilemmas are going to get much more complex and, and they're gonna. They're gonna pop up a lot as we, as we see technology, introduce new possibilities for how we're born.

[Lila Grace Rose]

I agree, and I'll just say really quick on that. I think the moral framework does exist if we're willing to pay attention. And you mentioned, I think you said your parents or your grandparents were raised Catholic. And I actually became Catholic in college. I wasn't raised Catholic, so I never knew what that was like. But I started to study what the church teaches on human rights, human dignity, sexual morality. And it was all not some burden. Oh, some like, oh, it's trying to be, you know, wave its finger at people. But it was all designed for human flourishing and for building harmony in human relationships. And so the Catholic Church does have teaching on what to do with all of these reproductive technologies. And they're constantly developing more teaching as the reproductive technologies evolve. And I think that teaching is more important than ever, because where are we going to draw the line?

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right?

[Lila Grace Rose]

If you can create a baby in a test tube and then create it, put a baby in a surrogate womb in like a. In like a, you know, a robot womb, right? And then you can harvest that baby's organs in order to live longer, because unborn babies don't have a right. So why can't we do that?

[Interjecting Commentator/Interviewer]

Right?

[Lila Grace Rose]

Where are we going to go as a society? It's going to become incredibly brutal and lawless, and the strong dominating the weak. So we need a moral framework that is going to stand the test of time. And that moral framework, I believe, has to include human life is sacred. You cannot kill it, innocent human life. You cannot kill it under any circumstances, and you cannot exploit it or dominate it just because you're powerful and you might want to or you think it's best for you. And that's the fundamental pro life position.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

I appreciate it, Lila. Last thing I would just say to you, not to open up the discussion anymore, but I think a lot of the women expressed in the episode a frustration of either having experienced judgment from people who are strongly pro life, or the fear of being judged if they were to get an abortion. I feel like you're approaching these conversations with a lot of respect towards the people you're talking to. And I think that's the way it has to be done to approach some sort of agreed, shared upon framework for the issue. So I applaud you for how you're approaching this issue. And on behalf of Jubilee, you know, thanks for being in Surrounded and, you know, doing this difficult task of debating a room full of people from the opposition.

[Podcast Host (John Regalato)]

If you want to see more follow up episodes of Surrounded, be sure to, like, comment, subscribe, subscribe, Leave us a positive rating and review. If you want to see the video versions, you can watch them on Jubilee's second channel, Tubely. If you want to hear audio only versions, you can follow the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to hear more from me, you can find me online. John Regalato on X or YouTube. Thanks so much for listening. Remember, you could be wrong, so could I. Keep your mind open until next time.

[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

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[Lila Grace Rose]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars. Watching us.

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[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

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[Lila Grace Rose]

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[Interviewer/Moderator (Jubilee Staff)]

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[Lila Grace Rose]

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