Can 1 Cop Defend Himself Against 20 Criminals? | Surrounded

Summary

Podcast Summary: Surrounded – "Can 1 Cop Defend Himself Against 20 Criminals?"

Episode Information:

• Title: Can 1 Cop Defend Himself Against 20 Criminals?
• Host/Author: Jubilee Media
• Release Date: July 26, 2025
• Description: Surrounded features intense debates where one individual faces twenty-five others with opposing viewpoints. This episode delves deep into the contentious issue of police accountability, use of lethal force, and community-police relations.

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Introduction

The episode kicks off with Kevin Donaldson, a retired police officer from New Jersey, taking the center stage as he is metaphorically "surrounded" by twenty-five opposing voices, represented by Mario and Sonia. The central question posed is whether a single police officer can defend himself against twenty criminals, setting the tone for a heated and unfiltered debate on policing in America.

Police Accountability and Use of Lethal Force

Mario initiates the conversation by highlighting a significant shift in police accountability post the Derek Chauvin and George Floyd incident:

"[00:00] Mario: Until Derek Chauvin murdered that dude, George Floyd, people were not being held accountable. Cops were being held accountable."

Kevin Donaldson vehemently disagrees, asserting that police accountability existed long before this high-profile case:

"[00:38] Kevin Donaldson: ...I'm telling you there's police officers before Derek Chauvin had no accountability?"

The discussion quickly narrows down to the use of lethal force by police. Mario criticizes the tendency of officers to resort to firearms instead of de-escalation:

"[02:23] Mario: So I don't know how many times I've seen, instead of them trying to deescalate the situation, they just pull out the gun."

Kevin counters by emphasizing that lethal force is employed only when absolutely necessary:

"[03:08] Kevin Donaldson: They actually agree with you. The only time you can use lethal force is when your life or somebody else's life is in imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. His life doesn't meet that criteria."

Training and De-escalation Techniques

A significant portion of the debate focuses on the training police officers receive. Kevin recommends that every officer should attain at least a purple belt in jiu-jitsu to enhance both physical handling and confidence:

"[04:54] Kevin Donaldson: I've been saying this for years, that every cop should be at least a purple belt in jiu jitsu..."

Mario shares anecdotes of what he perceives as excessive force, questioning the effectiveness and appropriateness of training:

"[03:23] Mario: Yeah, there's always gray area. Like for example, do you remember that one time that some lady, she went, a lady cop, she went to pull some guy out of the car. Instead of grabbing her taser, she used her gun."

Qualified Immunity and Legal Protections

The topic shifts to qualified immunity, with Mario expressing frustration over legal protections that seemingly allow officers to evade consequences:

"[08:51] Mario: How do you feel about qualified immunity?"

Kevin asserts that qualified immunity has been largely dismantled and reinforces that no one, including police officers, is above the law:

"[09:15] Kevin Donaldson: So, the best of my knowledge, qualified immunity was taken away. Yeah, Taken away quite some time ago..."

Sexual Harassment and Diversity in Police Forces

Mario brings up sexual harassment within police academies, sharing his friend's experiences of harassment and the troubling culture that allows such behavior:

"[23:45] Mario: So I have a personal story actually. I'm from like the north San Diego area and a friend of mine, she was actually trying to be a sheriff with the San Diego Sheriff's Department..."

Kevin acknowledges the issue, highlighting the challenges female officers face in a male-dominated field:

"[25:26] Kevin Donaldson: Oh, I thought I was talking specifically about the other recruits. No, the instructors. No, that's never okay..."

Racial Profiling and Community Relations

Mario strongly criticizes what he perceives as racial profiling and systemic discrimination against black and brown communities:

"[34:42] Mario: Yeah, well I disagree with that. I think you guys get trained to do that. And on top of that, like you humiliate our people, the brown and the blacks, like that's your job..."

Kevin refutes these claims, emphasizing that racial profiling is not part of police training and that the legal system's flaws contribute to disproportionate incarceration rates among minorities:

"[37:32] Kevin Donaldson: A lot of it has to come from economics. Okay? Those people with good lawyers are more likely going to be able to get off..."

Personal Experiences and Emotional Impact

The conversation delves into personal narratives, with Mario and Sonia sharing traumatic encounters with police that have shaped their negative perceptions:

"[47:00] Sonia: Is good, but when it."

Kevin, empathizing with their experiences, emphasizes the emotional toll of police work and the importance of mental health training:

"[56:12] Kevin Donaldson: So, no. [He]... I've been on calls where people have either killed themselves or attempted to kill themselves."

Final Reflections and Attempts at Understanding

Towards the end, both Mario and Kevin reflect on the possibility of mutual understanding and the need for systemic change. Despite deep-seated frustrations and conflicting perspectives, there's a tentative acknowledgment of the potential for dialogue and progress:

"[67:11] Kevin Donaldson: And once that healing starts. You did it. You did it..."

However, the conversation remains fraught with tension, underscoring the complexities of police-community relations.

Notable Quotes

• "Nobody's willing to give their life for fun." — Kevin Donaldson [22:25]
• "You can't give any man any power like that and them not abuse it." — Mario [22:28]
• "The worst thing you can do is let anybody sit inside your head rent free." — Kevin Donaldson [47:24]
• "All police." — Mario [51:49]
• "Handling somebody with emotional episode... we need more resources." — Kevin Donaldson [60:03]

Conclusion

This episode of Surrounded presents a raw and unfiltered debate on the heart-wrenching and polarizing topic of policing in America. Through passionate exchanges and personal testimonies, it highlights the deep divisions and the urgent need for meaningful dialogue and reform. While Kevin Donaldson advocates for the good intentions of most police officers and the challenges they face, Mario and Sonia share their traumatic experiences that fuel a narrative of mistrust and systemic abuse. The episode encapsulates the struggle to bridge vastly different perspectives in the quest for justice and community healing.

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Note: Advertisements and promotional segments interspersed within the transcript have been omitted to focus solely on the substantive content of the debate.

Transcript

[Mario]

Until Derek Chauvin murdered that dude, George Floyd, people were not being held accountable. Cops were being held accountable.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That's not true.

[Mario]

It's not a false statement. It's happening.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You're telling me there's police officers before Derek Chauvin had no accountability?

[Mario]

Very little.

[Kevin Donaldson]

No.

[Mario]

Very little.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Wrong.

[Mario]

Very little accountability.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Wrong. From Jubilee Media, this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. Let's get into it. I'm Kevin Donaldson, a retired police officer from New Jersey, and today I'm surrounded by 20 criminals.

[Sonia]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

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[Sonia]

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[Mario]

Download the Nordstrom app.

[Sonia]

On WhatsApp. No one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Kevin Donaldson]

My first claim is that cops only use lethal force as a last resort.

[Mario]

So I don't know how many times I've seen, instead of them trying to deescalate the situation, they just pull out the gun. They maybe say a couple commands, and if things don't go their way, they use a weapon. I just saw a video where some lady was picking up some boiling water. She's obviously not okay in the head. And the cop took it upon himself to threaten lethal force. And the woman, like I said, wasn't all the way there. She threatened to use the sculling board to throw it on him and he just immediately shot her.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Do you want me to tell you the parts of that video that were wrong?

[Mario]

I'd like to hear your say.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, so the cop is 100% wrong on that one from what I've seen. But we also gotta remember there's always more to the story than you see on video. Those of you out here, Rodney King. Okay, Rodney King. There was a lot of footage there where Rodney King, who's 6 foot 7, who is high on PCP, who led the Police on a chase and he won't stop, he won't follow commands. So there's more to that story. This one. Unfortunately, from what I've seen, that cop is 100% wrong. And I will call that cop out. That woman was too far away. She had boiling water and she said something about in the name of the, in the name of Jesus, I do, I bless you or something like that.

[Mario]

Because most of that not using lethal force when it wasn't necessary.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Yes.

[Mario]

Yeah, so that just defeats those.

[Kevin Donaldson]

They actually agree with you. The only time you can use lethal force is when your life or somebody else's life is in imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. His life doesn't meet that criteria.

[Mario]

Yeah, there's always gray area. Like for example, do you remember that one time that some lady, she went, a lady cop, she went to pull some guy out of the car. Instead of grabbing her taser, she used her gun.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Well, the threat level on a woman going against a guy. Say if there's a five foot woman going against.

[Mario]

Did she not use lethal force when it wasn't necessary?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Yeah, but her threat level's different.

[Mario]

She was trying to use her taser and she ended up using her gun.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Well, I was, I was in an error. I was in an era before tasers, so I can't speak to that. However, a woman's threat level is different than a man's threat level.

[Mario]

Yeah, but that's your experience. But I mean, we're talking about facts here. Facts are she went and used her gun instead of using her taser.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So I didn't see the video. So I'm trying to go on what you're, what you're telling me, but I am telling you there is a force continuum. There is constructive authority. That's a good one. Let's go.

[Mario]

Well, crazy thing about you, you just went back with a statement right now by saying that he shouldn't have shot her.

[Kevin Donaldson]

In the original statement, you said cops.

[Mario]

Don'T use lethal force until they have to. But then you said that was a case where he shouldn't have used lethal.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Force and he did.

[Mario]

There's plenty of cases, I'm sure you've.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Seen them, where cops use lethal force.

[Mario]

And they shouldn't have. I get it.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Sometimes they may be scared for their life even though the situation doesn't deem.

[Mario]

It to, for wanting to be scared for their lives. Sometimes they are.

[Kevin Donaldson]

But I feel like that's all in training now. That's where training should be more because there's lots of cops that are just.

[Mario]

So jittery and so trigger happy when.

[Kevin Donaldson]

They shouldn't be, when people are just doing regular things. You're 100% correct, my friend. You're 100% correct. I've been saying this for years, that every cop should be at least a purple belt in jiu jitsu. That's going to do two things. It's going to allow you to be able to handle yourself, but it's also going to be the confidence that's instilled within you in order to be able to handle yourself. The vast majority only use lethal force as a last resort. But there are occasions where, let's face it, there are certain people that should never be cops. I'll be the first one to tell you that they got shoved in lockers in schools. They have a complex about them. Trust me, the cops who should be cops know exactly who those people are. They have a God complex, and they should have never got that job. So I'll be the first one to tell you that.

[Mario]

And the thing is, once something happens where that cop that should have never.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Had that job shows they should never.

[Mario]

Have that job, a lot of times.

[Kevin Donaldson]

They never get fired. And. And if they do get fired, they can somehow just go to a different department and still work.

[Mario]

And I'm not sure if that's true, but from what I've heard, accounts people can, let's say, get fired from one county, go to the next.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Even though he has history of going.

[Mario]

To black and brown people and discriminating them, he still can have work or.

[Kevin Donaldson]

He can be paid leave. Paid leave is crazy to me because you can shoot somebody and then get.

[Mario]

Paid just to sit at home. That's crazy to me.

[Kevin Donaldson]

But what do you think on that?

[Mario]

What do you think that's something that should happen?

[Kevin Donaldson]

So that particular cop you're talking about, that video, he's in six different departments. That should have been red flag number one. Yeah. Okay. You don't just keep hopping departments. There's obviously a problem there. Paid leave, something different. You sign a contract on this particular job, and that contract states that you are working until you either retire or you're terminated. So paid leave is you're basically out on an injury. I was out on an injury because there are wounds beyond gunshot wounds that will screw you up way worse than being shot. And trust me on that one.

[Mario]

Definitely. Might as well raise our flag. It's too much talking, bro. Thank you.

[Kevin Donaldson]

All right, brother.

[Mario]

I come from the city of East Los Angeles. Police officers are shooting them in the back. A kid who I trained as a little boxer took a swing at an officer.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Yes.

[Mario]

Took off running and has four gunshots in his back. And then other videos are coming out, shot in the back so they don't have to run after them.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Okay, and what happened to that officer who shot the gentleman in the back.

[Mario]

On paid leave?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Okay. Pending investigation. If he truly shot that person in the back, and with all the cameras around here, the truth will come out. If he truly shot that person in the back, he's going to jail. He's giving up his freedom. All right? You cannot shoot somebody in the back. The only time I've ever seen that pass grand jury is when somebody had a gun shooting back at him like this. It's the only time I've ever seen that.

[Mario]

So why does it continue? I mean, why does it.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Why?

[Mario]

There's too many cases, whether it be East Los Angeles, whether it be everything. And it's not just beating as you guys are shooting them in the back.

[Kevin Donaldson]

We're not. Not all police shootings happen in the back. It does happen, but not all. You're generalizing again. You can't say all police shootings happen.

[Mario]

In the back enough that it's causing attention to us, is bringing attention. If something is not serious and it doesn't bring attention. But obviously this debate is happening because it is happening. If we don't admit there's a problem, how can we fix the problem?

[Kevin Donaldson]

If a police officer shoots somebody in the back without probable cause, without justification, then they are going to jail, they are losing their job, their family gets embarrassed, and they are spending the rest of their life in prison.

[Mario]

Here's what it is. We have to take it to civil court because law.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Thank you.

[Mario]

How do you feel about qualified immunity?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Qualified immunity? You're talking about police officer being indemnified for their crimes. But can you give me an example so I can defend it a little bit better?

[Mario]

I started off with that because I feel like some officers, even though they might not want to, like, shoot, I feel like nobody wants to kill nobody. Right. That's, like, the last option. But I feel like they. They. They can, like, get away with it because of these protections that they have.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So the best of my knowledge, qualified immunity was taken away. Yeah, Taken away quite some time ago. For good cause. For good cause. Nobody, including police officers, is above the law. You can't just go out and kill people. Have they done it? 100%. Steve Caracappa and Lou Eppolito were mob hitmen for the NYPD for Years. But guess what? The law eventually caught up to them. It just took too long. Qualified immunity. It should have been something that's never there because police are held to a higher standard than everybody else, are there? Absolutely. So gentlemen, prior to you said the young man took a swing at a police officer. Well, what happened if this police officer just went up to somebody and took a swing at them, they're gonna lose their job. Now the person who took a swing at them, yeah, he might spend a night in jail if he gets caught. But other than that, there's really no real consequences.

[Mario]

I'm just saying though, like, they have these protections and they have these resources for them. Like most investigations. When you said something about paid leave. Right, and there's an investigation, how many times is that investigation from like an outside agency versus like the department, you.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Know, in New Jersey? Every time.

[Mario]

So it's internal, right?

[Kevin Donaldson]

No, it's every time it's an outside agency.

[Mario]

Right, but would you say that's like the standard for everywhere else?

[Kevin Donaldson]

You know, most of the time it is.

[Mario]

Most cops though, they get away with it because of like, they make excuses. Like even in the case recently where like the lady with the boiling water, she threw it towards the cop, that was wrong. Everybody knows it was wrong. But then there's still people trying to fight and defend that. So you can't say that they don't have protection, you know.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Well, of course they have protection. They, you know, every, every defense attorney is hired by their client. Even though their client might be guilty as hell. Every defense attorney has a duty to defend their client. Whether it's a union attorney or whether it's a private attorney, it doesn't matter. They're going to have to protect their.

[Mario]

Client and then that works out then.

[Kevin Donaldson]

But the internal investigation, they will go harder on you. My. My very good friend was under indictment for murder for 15 weeks. Even though everything was on video and it was a totally clean shoot. Totally clean shoot. Proven still 15 weeks with a murder indictment hanging over his head. So there's really not qualified immunity. The oversight over top of police shootings is so much more than everybody sees. I join us Ford BlueCruise hands free.

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[Mario]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

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[Sonia]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

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[Mario]

So on the same topic of, I believe Sonia, bless her soul, because that was pretty bad. So this is what I heard. He had two DUIs. He was transferred. And the guy that was responsible for him, the sergeant, said he didn't do his due diligence and do what he was supposed to to make sure that he was supposed to be on that department. That's a problem. And then the other problem is, why didn't the officer pull his gun on him and tell him, hey, dude, chill. They knew that that lady had schizophrenic tendencies. And the mom even asked to said that. She said, can you send somebody that will de escalate? And they sent a hothead over there. And that guy didn't take no responsibility. And you see how that doesn't help your standpoints when you're trying to make a difference. And then this guy won't take responsibility. And then that other cop there, too, he didn't even say nothing. So I'm like, what would you do in that situation if an officer was. Because you knew that was wrong, right?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Absolutely. This is why I'm gonna say it again. I'm gonna probably say it a dozen more times. Nobody hates a bad cop worse than a good cop because what that guy did looks bad on everybody, okay? Now everybody has to bear the brunt of his poor decision. That sergeant who was there or the other officer who was there on scene, he has to live with the fact that he did not act. Trust me when I tell you the punishment for that crime will go far beyond what the media is going to say. It'll go far beyond what you think and what everybody in this room thinks. He's got that woman's soul on his heart for the rest of his life.

[Mario]

I agree.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That is. And there was a second part of your question which escapes me.

[Mario]

The guy that's in charge of putting that deputy in that department said he didn't know about his past. I believe I heard the statement. And he's like, well, I didn't. I didn't know. What kind of answer is that?

[Kevin Donaldson]

That is not an answer. It's not an acceptable answer. Police are held to a higher standard, which we should be held to a higher standard. Okay? They need to do their due diligence on who they're bringing in, because that police officer has an enormous amount of responsibility as soon as they hit the street.

[Mario]

And he said it with so much desensitized attitude. I'm sorry, but, like, I've met good and bad. And that was kind of like, bro, you giving more fuel to this, to this whole argument of there's good cop, bad cop. We don't see it when we see that. And the media loves to bring that up, which they do, because now we have all the technology now we could see everything.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I'm sorry to cut you off, but if you look at the George Floyd thing, the officers that were standing around, they lost their job for failure to act. The failure to act.

[Mario]

If I was in a murder, if I was in a car with a murder, would I not be charged in that murder?

[Kevin Donaldson]

You will be charged as an accessory. And I believe they were charged. I do believe they were charged. Now. Now, I have been in situations where one in particular, where there's a car chase, everybody's adrenaline's ripping. And everybody in this room who's had their adrenaline ripping, it's hard to dial it down at the back of the eye. I watched them rip this guy out of the car and slam him to the pavement once they got him. And you know what I did? You know? And you can hear it on camera. There's actual proof of this. I slapped cuffs on this guy and I said, he's cuffed. It's over.

[Mario]

Okay.

[Kevin Donaldson]

All right. Because I knew this guy was going to get it because their adrenaline was high. He rammed the police car. There was a whole bunch of other things involved in there. The. I have a duty to protect those who can't protect themselves. First person I protect, I'm going to tell. I'm not going to bullshit you here. First person I protect is myself, of course. But beyond that, I am willing to be my brother's keeper. So once he's in custody, he is my brother. I am his keeper. All right? And I am responsible for his safety. If he dies under. In my custody, it's on me. So that other officer, getting back to the video, that other officers. He's got to live with that. He's got to live with that. But not every. But again, human police officers are human beings.

[Mario]

Yeah.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Humans are flawed. Humans are fallible.

[Mario]

Do you think there's something that we have to break inside the police System about that. It's code, right?

[Kevin Donaldson]

No, it's not code.

[Mario]

You guys don't have code.

[Kevin Donaldson]

What do you mean? You're talking about the thin blue line.

[Mario]

I don't know.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I would.

[Mario]

See, I would. I would assume you had code. But I appreciate you sharing.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Hi, how are you?

[Sonia]

I'm good. How are you? Since there's only a minute left, I just wanted to bring up something you said, like, oh, if a kid that was like shoved in lockers becomes a police officer, like he has an agenda, like, don't you think there should be more like scanning or training done in order to become an officer?

[Kevin Donaldson]

How would you do that?

[Sonia]

I mean, like, other jobs, like there's so much more training and like, yeah.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Other jobs, there's much less training than police officers. But there's no, there's no way.

[Sonia]

If there's these people that are coming through that have an agenda, that are going to just shoot someone based off.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So they haven't invented the mind reading psychologically. We go through psychological examinations, okay? And until we get that and develop that mind reading tool, these people are going to slip through the cracks. It's a fact of life. There are people who just shouldn't be police officers.

[Sonia]

You don't think that there could be more to scan people?

[Kevin Donaldson]

How?

[Sonia]

I don't know, but I just feel.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Like that's the, that's the big question is how? Because we go through multiple psychological exams. We go through the wonderlic test, the MMPI, which are 500 question tests a piece, extensive psychological backgrounds. So beyond that, what are you going to do? Yeah, there's no way to tell. It's unfortunate. But guess what? Those cops who know, those guys who can see, those guys that got shoved in lockers, they know. Yeah, they know.

[Sonia]

All right.

[Mario]

Thank you.

[Sonia]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

Most cops are selfless and honorable people.

[Mario]

No, I don't think these cops are honorable at all. I think they're just a bunch of cowboys, you know, and we're just the cattle, and they're just out here to herd us into jail and that's it. You know, we need people to help us not act like thugs. They're the thugs to us. They're the scary monsters.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So why wouldn't somebody like yourself, who has those views take on that responsibility to change that system?

[Mario]

I did. You know, when I was a kid, I would always say I wanted to be a cop or a movie star. Cops made me who I am, by the way I look. I felt like I was a criminal because of the way they acted towards me, you know, until one day I realized, you know, I'm not the bad guy.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Something you don't know about me. I grew up in a neighborhood full of criminals. When I was younger, I stole everything I could get my hands on. And then one day, the light clicked on because of a police officer. He came up to me and he said, what are you doing? What are you doing with your life? And I watched that police officer take a young kid with that one statement, that one simple statement, and change me around to want to go the other direction and be.

[Mario]

It goes back to what I was saying. We need more cops like that. That will steer us the right way.

[Kevin Donaldson]

And that's why I challenge you, and I challenge everybody in this room. I challenge you to teach your children. It might be too late for all of us.

[Mario]

I'm doing that just by being here.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Challenge your children to take on that debt, to take on that weight. If you see the system as being broken and you stand by and you're silent, you're complicit. We teach the next generation. No, you need to go into this because you need to change it.

[Mario]

Either teach the next generation or teach the cops.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Well, the cops right now, some of them, that's going to be a difficult task.

[Mario]

The solution will be to just teach the cops better training and teach these.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Kids what kind of training would you give them?

[Mario]

Mental training. They need a lot of that. You said they need more training in jiu jitsu, which I do believe. Yeah, you're 100% right. But also the mental training, I believe.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I'm in agreement with you there. Because the mental stresses of this job are why people are getting. Why they're getting super aggressive on the street. A lot of it, not all of it are why they're getting super aggressive. So we are all. We are all victims to becoming what we see, police see.

[Mario]

No, we're the victims. You guys are.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Well, no, everybody, I'm talking about everybody is a victim of what they see. If you saw death and horror, nobody's calling the cops because their kid graduated high school.

[Mario]

You know, you try and twist this around, but yeah, the cops do victimize a lot of us, you know, and they make us think that we're just evil people all the time. And so they're not honorable.

[Kevin Donaldson]

But you're victimizing the cops in much the same way. You're doing the same thing.

[Mario]

A job like that is any honorable, like shooting people in the back and having your colleagues, like, get away with it.

[Kevin Donaldson]

They shoot people in jail, or maybe.

[Mario]

Not implying like they go to jail.

[Kevin Donaldson]

If they shoot people in the jail.

[Mario]

But there's no honor in being a cop. There isn't.

[Kevin Donaldson]

There is a lot of honor in being a cop.

[Mario]

You can't give any man any power like that and them not abuse it.

[Kevin Donaldson]

When you're willing to give your life for somebody who doesn't, you don't know who hates you. When you're willing to do that, that's honorable.

[Mario]

I think they do it for fun, honestly.

[Kevin Donaldson]

No. Nobody's willing to give their life for fun.

[Mario]

That's all I gotta say about that.

[Sonia]

I think a more selfless and honorable career would probably be social workers or something that's not so, you know, rooted in violence and power. I mean, if you want to help people, why good at policing?

[Kevin Donaldson]

They've tried to make social workers first responders. And. And it doesn't work because a social worker is going to take two or three days to show up to a domestic dispute. Doesn't work.

[Sonia]

Yeah, okay.

[Kevin Donaldson]

They might be coming in as a secondary response, as a second responder, but first responders are your soldiers. They're your frontline soldiers.

[Sonia]

Why do we need soldiers in our own country? We're supposed to be united, okay?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Just all you gotta do is tell the criminals to stop doing crime.

[Sonia]

Okay.

[Kevin Donaldson]

All right. So if you can get the criminals to stop doing crime. We can get rid of the police.

[Sonia]

Okay, this is true. Okay, so Valad. Thank you.

[Mario]

So I have a personal story actually. I'm from like the north San Diego area and a friend of mine, she was actually trying to be a sheriff with the San Diego Sheriff's Department. And she told me a story how like when she was going through the academy and stuff, how her instructors, her peers, she was dealing with like a lot of sexual harassment. So when you tell me that all officers are most, most, most, most are selfless and honorable, how do we tell the difference between those people and the people who were harassing my friend and, and countless other female officers and maybe even male officers too, I don't know. So I did serve at one point I was in the army. So I know like, do you know about morale gear? I do, but I know like, it happens, you know, and you gotta like, you gotta check your people. So you could tell me that all cops or most cops, right, are just these honorable and selfless people. Like what do you say about that?

[Kevin Donaldson]

So you're talking about specifically with sexual harassment. Female officers are so essential to police departments now? Because I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't want to, I don't want to have to. I can't go search a female. So we need those female officers to do that stuff. Most female officers I know are dynamite at what they do. They are way tougher than I am. So here's the big problem with sexual harassment. I'm going to tell you what happens. You're in a highly male dominated field. The female police officers, they feel like they, they need to be one of the boys. So they start engaging in conversation that is not applicable or not appropriate for the workplace. And then what happens? The other officers give it back? Somebody gets pissed off. Next thing you know there's sexual harassment in the police academy. That's kind of a different thing. These are young.

[Mario]

How's it different?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Because these are young. These are. I'm not saying it's right, it isn't right.

[Mario]

But these are the instructors who have years of experience teaching these people.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Oh, I thought I was talking specifically about the other recruits. Okay, the instructors. No, that's never okay. The world is not a perfect place.

[Mario]

I know it isn't, but you, it's just, it sets a bad example, you know, Like a lot of people don't want to get in there and be officers, let alone serve or do anything for their country because of stuff like that. And it's really prevalent in police departments, I feel like, because just from the example I told you about how my friend, how she dealt with that.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So like I had said earlier, somebody like your friend sees a problem in there. Now if she's on the inside, it's.

[Mario]

Her, but she feels like she can't speak up because it's like she's going to get retaliated against. Quid pro quo.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Have her call me. I will teach her how to use her voice very loudly.

[Mario]

I understand that, but it's not that simple for most people. So you can see like most officers on the outside, like, I don't know you, I assume, like, you're a good person. But then we don't know most days. Most days we don't. We don't know like how an officer is going to treat like, like a female or like another male or something.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Like, it's just like any other job. Okay. Just like. Just like also when I go in.

[Mario]

And order a pizza, I'm more likely to get harassed or like profiled or. You treated differently for ordering a pizza?

[Kevin Donaldson]

No, no, no, no. So it's going to go into a corporate office setting. Sexual harassment has run rampant over the years. Yeah, but there's no go into Hollywood.

[Mario]

You don't get shot for it. You don't get.

[Kevin Donaldson]

She didn't get shot for.

[Mario]

Well, she didn't. But like, it's, it's the thing like your career can end, but the stakes are higher with police officers because of what you guys can do, like, and your training.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Now think about it from a male's perspective. If I see a female getting harassed, first of all, it's my duty to speak up. Correct. And I would speak up and I have spoken up. But think about most police, most male police officers, if they speak up, they're going to be ostracized. They're going to be a pariah.

[Mario]

Do you guys have like a system in place then for like representatives that can go like these females or males or whoever can go and talk and say, like, hey, I'm being harassed against. Or is it the internal.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Yes.

[Mario]

Is it an internal thing? Internal investigation, the same thing?

[Kevin Donaldson]

I believe there's a couple different. I can't speak to every place in the country, but I believe there's internal policies in place where they can follow. That's cool.

[Mario]

I appreciate you being here. My guess is you're probably a reasonable cop because most unreasonable cops probably wouldn't have come out here. So I appreciate you here to try to help change because that's why I'm here as well. You talk about the majority of cops being honorable selfless people. Why are we seeing so many, so many incidences over and over and over on the news daily across the country. Why do we see so many examples if it is just such a. You know, a few bad apples?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Because a cop going and saving a 2 year old with CPR is not newsworthy. Not. Not on a national level. A cop going and helping an old lady in with her groceries. That is not newsworthy. Those are the majority of the calls. But that. But what is newsworthy is that cop who does something they're not supposed to. And then it's baboon. This is what every station in the world covers. They do not cover 99.9999% of what police do. But they'll cover that 0.0001% of what police do. Especially when it's wrong. That's all you see. You're being fed that information.

[Mario]

We'll receive a ton of it.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So.

[Mario]

So if there's just a ton. We are every single day. We are seeing it on the news every day. So there can't be a few bad apples.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So there's 700, approximately 700,000 police officers. You're seeing the 0.001 which is still a lot. Say it's 70. Still a lot. Right?

[Mario]

It's more than we should have.

[Kevin Donaldson]

It's still a lot. But I want to hear any other profession in the world where you're being judged on that. 00001.

[Mario]

This profession is different. You guys have weapons. You guys are in a position of power. You guys are doing things that normal jobs. You know. Hey. Oh, I can't categorize an office guys. Oh, there's shitty office guys. I don't care if they're shitty office guys. You have a different role. We. You're there to protect and serve our communities. So I don't buy the small, you know, bad apple theory. From my experience it was the majority were on a power trip and treated people shitty over time.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So you're asking. You're asking cops to be perfect?

[Mario]

No, I'm asking them to be reasonable.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You are asking cops to be perfect.

[Mario]

I didn't say.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You're asking to get rid of that.001% you're. Because that's what it is. That's what you're asking.

[Mario]

And that's an unreasonable what I'm asking. Why is there so much prevalence of it if it's only a few bad apples? That's the part that's bullshit.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Because 70 still a lot. Like I said, the 700,000 police officers in the country if. 70. If you're seeing 70 stories about bad police officers, think about the percentages on that one. Listen, I'd love to have zero. I would love to have zero.

[Mario]

Yeah, I think they'd fire him after a most or. No, they don't. Most do not. Until Derek Chauvin murdered that dude George Floyd, people were not being held accountable. Cops were being held accountable.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That's not true.

[Mario]

We've already witnessed multiple examples.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Not true.

[Mario]

You go from division to division.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That's absolutely not true. That is a false statement.

[Mario]

We see it every.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That is a statement straight. That is a straight statement straight out of the news media's mouth.

[Mario]

It's not a false statement. It happens. That's.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You're telling me there's police officers before Derek Chauvin had no accountability?

[Mario]

Very little. No, very little.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Wrong.

[Mario]

Very little accountability.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Wrong.

[Mario]

Yes. That was the first cop that I can think of in my lifetime that actually went to prison for the crime he committed.

[Kevin Donaldson]

There's tons of others we haven't ever seen. They've made movies about it.

[Mario]

We have seen it. So the point is then you're not looking hard enough. No, my point is there's not just a few bad apples. It's. That's a bullshit excuse fed by other police officers. Why is this happening over and over and over if there's just a few?

[Kevin Donaldson]

You're being fed the worst of the worst because that's what's newsworthy.

[Mario]

I'll see positive things in the news as well. My point is not a few bad apples. It's a large majority. Criminals become hardened over time because we deal with cops. Often cops also have that same exact thing. You go to ride, you cruise around, you, you target people, you do your thing and over time, you don't like dealing with us. And so you start to become hardened. And what do you do? The next clown that shows up to get trained, you're pushing your shit on him. And then there's a pile of you guys.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That is, again, a very irresponsible generalization. Cops do get hardened over time. Cops do get hardened over time because we see so much. If you were exposed to death on a daily basis, you would become hardened, too. Now here's the big problem, and this is one going to be the big game changer. There is a lack of mental health training inside police departments.

[Mario]

You want to know that's not my fault they hired you when did I.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Say it was your fault?

[Mario]

My point is you can't blame it on.

[Kevin Donaldson]

But you're not letting me get to my point. This is never going anywhere unless you let me get to the point. So here's the problem. Because mental health inside police departments has a huge stigma to it. So when I got on, if I went to my boss and said, hey, listen, I'm having some really, really wicked nightmares, you know what they're gonna do? They're gonna take my gun, they're gonna put me on desk duty when really all I need is to go talk to somebody.

[Mario]

That's institutional problems on the police force. I'm talking about the whole.

[Kevin Donaldson]

But you're asking me why we're seeing this all the time.

[Mario]

I'm telling you constantly. Right.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I'm telling you why.

[Mario]

We're also making a claim. Honorable and selfless. I find it very interesting that honorable and selfless people have the highest divorce rate of any other profession. That seems pretty odd. I don't see a ring. Not saying you're married, but I find that very interesting as well.

[Kevin Donaldson]

How many men are willing to get it tattooed on them?

[Mario]

A few. Most of them are criminals.

[Sonia]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

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[Sonia]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

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[Sonia]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

Most police officers do not racially profile black and brown people.

[Mario]

Yeah, well I disagree with that. I think you guys get trained to do that. And on top of that, like you humiliate our people, the brown and the blacks, like that's your job. I don't know how many months you get trained for that, but you're pretty much There to degrade us.

[Kevin Donaldson]

What training on planet Earth would have us racially profile black and brown people?

[Mario]

It goes without saying. I mean, that's just how you guys are, you know?

[Kevin Donaldson]

No, you said training. I'm gonna hold you to that statement. What training do we get to racially profile black and brown people?

[Mario]

You say they're the training, or you guys are just like that.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So I'm assuming from your statement that you've been racially profiled because you're brown.

[Mario]

I mean, they happen all the time. I mean, I think that's the only reason why they would stop me because of the color of my skin. I mean, I'll just be walking down the street, especially when I'm with my kids, you know, like, that's the part that I hated the most, being humiliated in front of my family and kids.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Okay, have you ever done anything wrong prior to this where you didn't get caught?

[Mario]

I'm honestly, like, I was innocent each time they stopped me.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Not when they stopped you. Prior to them stopping you, have you ever done anything wrong?

[Mario]

Of course, you know, no one's perfect.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Okay, so how many times would you say on a percentage, did you do something wrong where they didn't stop you?

[Mario]

I mean, very low.

[Kevin Donaldson]

But it has happened, correct?

[Mario]

Yeah, it has happened.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Okay, so why can't police make a claim on the other side of that that they didn't get you when they should have?

[Mario]

No, I just feel like these cops, they don't have any remorse for our people. You know, they just come to our neighborhoods and leave, and they cause more damage than they come.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So what neighborhood are you from? Let me start there.

[Mario]

I'm from South Central Louisiana.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You're from South Central la, and there's a lot of good people in South Central la. Am I correct?

[Mario]

Yeah.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Okay. Can you imagine what kind of life it would be if the police were not in there? And you have certain people looking to do harm, certain people looking to do good, certain people just trying to raise. All right, we'll talk after that.

[Mario]

So the prior debaters made a claim about your training, and I heard your response was, so what neighborhood you're from, why not community? Why? The choice of word was neighborhood?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Because that's how I grew up, and we grew up by neighborhoods. If you would rather me say community, I'm not beholden to the word neighborhood.

[Mario]

Awesome. So with that, you're saying also. Okay, question. You said you don't pick and choose black and brown. Why do the numbers show that the most incarcerated are black and brown?

[Kevin Donaldson]

A lot of it has to come from economics. Okay? Those people with good lawyers are more likely going to be able to get off. That's the legal system. The legal system is run by human beings. And the one universal truth about human beings is they're flawed. They're flawed. So the reason that there are more black and brown people in the system like that is maybe because they're of lower social economical class and they cannot afford to hire the high priced attorneys.

[Mario]

Now sticking to the same topic of training.

[Sonia]

All right, pause.

[Mario]

Wait a minute. Back at it again, huh?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Yeah, I like it. Honestly, I may be posed to a lot of people's beliefs here.

[Mario]

I agree with you. Most cops that I've seen for if we're talking about the word most generally, I've seen more cops be good than none. I mean than bad. But at the same time in Los.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Angeles, this is part of this thing.

[Mario]

Called the gang unit division and majority.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Of them are bad.

[Mario]

Majority I've seen encountered horrible cops. They put, they put a bad name on just cops, period. And I've seen cops allow it.

[Kevin Donaldson]

But honestly I feel like I agree with your statement for the most part. There's a couple big things in what you said there. Number one, nobody hates a bad cop worse than a good cop. And that's the truth. Because that brings me to the second point where we are all, in this room, we are all judged by our lowest common denominator. If somebody with black skin did me wrong, am I going to have a favorable view against black people? Probably not. Probably not. If you had a cop treat you a certain way, are you going to have a favorable view of cops? Probably not. But most cops, I'm telling you, most cops are out there trying to do a job the best they can. They're trying to go home and support their family and live the best life. What you're talking about.

[Mario]

I think you guys do ratio, your profile is. Yeah, I give you guys that. Okay. The majority gang members are Hispanics and blacks. Okay. You got to act like gang members yourself. You talk to us with slangs too.

[Kevin Donaldson]

What slang do we use? I just got my speaking codes too. Of course we do.

[Mario]

Yeah. Did they teach you guys that just attack blacks and Hispanics? No, it seems like it sometimes.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Most of the time you're allowed to believe whatever you want to believe. But I'm telling you there is no police academy in the world that treats go after this race as opposed to this race.

[Mario]

Did they teach you guys too, what's the difference between an ex gang member and an active gang member. No, there are people that are gang members but change their life too, and we're still getting pulled over.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Those are the people I love. However. However, if you get pulled over and you're doing nothing wrong, you need to thank the police. I'm going to tell you why. Because they're looking out for you. They're looking out for your community. I'll change my verbiage on that one. They're looking out for your community in order to get those who haven't found their way, such as those reformed gang members, to try to maybe change their way, to make an impact on them. So they should be. They should be thanked.

[Mario]

It happens to me. I had to ask them, why are you pulling me over? They don't even have an answer. Well, most of the time they don't. Like. They don't have nothing to say. Obviously, I know. Because of my looks. I know.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So laws might be different in California, but in New Jersey, you always get told why you're pulled over.

[Mario]

I'm a clean person. What you guys see is this and my skin color.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That's all you'll.

[Mario]

Most of my tattoos. You guys see that? That's when you guys pull up. Yeah, but who's looking at your color?

[Kevin Donaldson]

So if I go to a neighborhood that's heavily brown or black, are people going to look at me?

[Mario]

The police want to almost rarely. Never pull you over over here.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Oh, that's not true. Yes, that's absolutely not true. Because I've been pulled over.

[Mario]

Yeah, okay, but in a nice way.

[Kevin Donaldson]

We get yelled at. No, pull over. Get your hands in the air. You're making a dangerous assumption there, my friend. That is not true. I was driving through Alpine, New Jersey, which is one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in New Jersey. I was in an infinity, which was my buddy's car, and I got pulled over and I got ripped out of the car. I didn't have a problem with it. If you're not doing anything wrong and you get stopped, then nothing's gonna happen to you.

[Mario]

They do embarrass us.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You get embarrassed every day. That stuff you gotta get over. I got embarrassed. I got pulled out of the car.

[Sonia]

Okay, pause. So you've been voted out. I just wanted to touch on how you said it's embarrassing to be pulled out of your car or it was an embarrassing thing. It's terrifying for some people, especially people that feel like they're being racially profiled and they have a disadvantage to begin with. But when I've been interacting with Police. I'm terrified. It's not embarrassing, it's scary. And I'm white, so, I mean, I can't imagine the way it makes other people feel. It's kind of harassment. I don't think it's right the way the cops handle situations when there's no immediate threat.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Why? Why are you terrified?

[Sonia]

Because it's scary. You guys are overpowered. We don't have. What are we gonna do?

[Kevin Donaldson]

We don't fight fair. Police aren't paid to fight fair. Yeah, okay. We're not. This isn't. Take off your badge and put your gun down. That's not. This. This is a job.

[Sonia]

Of course.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Our job is to protect the streets. And if we see something, we're pulling you over. We're not pulling you over for no reason. We're pulling you over because we have something or we're looking for something. You might not be that person, but we're looking for something. So there is no reason to be terrified, okay? I've watched. I've watched this. Cops driving down the street and parents pick their kids up. What are you teaching that kid? The fact that you're terrified is on whoever taught you to be terrified. That's on them. Because police are there to protect you. They're not there to terrorize you.

[Sonia]

I just ran into some bad ones then, I guess because I've been in the right and not done anything.

[Kevin Donaldson]

What do you do for a living?

[Sonia]

What I do for a living? I do Onlyfans.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You do onlyfans? Okay. Are there some less than ethical onlyfans people?

[Sonia]

Sure. It's kind of a sex organistry.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So it's the rule of 10%. 10% of every profession in the world is unethical.

[Sonia]

Yeah. I don't think it's all police. I just think that. I don't know. Especially when you get your partners, they're partnered up. You guys kind of have this little. I don't know, I just witnessed a lot of, like, high school.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Because we don't fight fair. We have radios to call other people so we don't have to fight fair.

[Sonia]

All right, boss, you can vote out. Thank you. Hey, Kevin.

[Kevin Donaldson]

How are you?

[Sonia]

Good. You seem very nice. I don't personally know if you have ever judged someone based on their race, their ethnicity, their skin color, maybe just their appearance in general. I mean, I judged you. Everyone judges a pair of appearances. The moment I saw you walk in, I knew you were the cop. You're white, American flag tattoo. You arrived early. I judged you. You judge others. We all do it.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I agree.

[Sonia]

I think there are a lot of cases where cops are heavily influenced by those around them.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Everybody's influence. Were you alive during 9 11?

[Sonia]

No.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I got a front. Yes, I got a front row seat to 9 11. I saw the towers burning. I saw the towers fall. Now there's a large Indian population in New Jersey. Guess who was getting it worse? Indian people. Because their skin tone was similar to the people who flew the airplanes into the tower. Not by cops, by everybody. Everybody. Side item. We all do that. But if you're going to treat me with respect, you will get the utmost respect from me. But if you're going to be a dick to me, boy, I can sure be a dick. And I think that's there's rules to live by in everyone's life.

[Sonia]

I can see that. But you are not all cops. You represent a small portion. Great job. You can vote it out.

[Mario]

I hate cops.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Are you racist?

[Mario]

No.

[Sonia]

But y' all is.

[Kevin Donaldson]

No, no. You said you hate cops. Are you racist?

[Sonia]

I hate them.

[Mario]

All of them.

[Kevin Donaldson]

All right, so yeah, I killed my.

[Sonia]

Cousin for no reason.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So the reason I ask if you're racist because the definition of racism is treating somebody, treating a group of people differently by the way they look or what they do. Actually, it's bigotry. Okay. You said you hate cops because you had a bad interaction with a cop or a small group of cops. So for you to hate cops, a group of people, by the interactions based on one person, it's irresponsible.

[Sonia]

It is, yes. You should take your own advice.

[Kevin Donaldson]

How so?

[Mario]

Y', all, you was just talking about respect, right?

[Sonia]

Y' all don't respect us at all.

[Kevin Donaldson]

At all.

[Mario]

Just like he was saying.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That's a bold faced lie.

[Sonia]

No, it's not.

[Mario]

Absolutely, it's not.

[Sonia]

Y' all judge us by just looking at us. We don't have to do nothing. We don't have to do nothing at all.

[Kevin Donaldson]

And you're 100% sure of that?

[Sonia]

I'm 100% sure.

[Kevin Donaldson]

When you're 100% sure of something, that's when you're proved wrong.

[Mario]

I'm not proved wrong. Baby, yes you are. We go through it every day, all day.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So throughout my career, you're telling me that every black person or brown person that I came in contact with, I treated them unfairly.

[Mario]

I don't know who you came in contact with, but most of y' all do.

[Kevin Donaldson]

But you just said all. Now you're going back to most.

[Sonia]

I don't like none of y'.

[Mario]

All. To keep honest.

[Sonia]

I ain't met not one good copy yet.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So what would you do if a white person came up and said, I don't like any black?

[Sonia]

That's his opinion.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Just like yours? Yeah, just like yours. Would you say that's an irresponsible statement? Cause I would.

[Sonia]

No.

[Mario]

Everybody got their own opinion.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Until your opinions are changed.

[Sonia]

I wouldn't change nothing against none of y'.

[Mario]

All. I don't like cops. Y' all treat us black and brown people very disrespectful, very different.

[Sonia]

Most of us getting killed every day.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Most of you?

[Sonia]

Yeah. Y' all just killed that lady for no reason.

[Kevin Donaldson]

What lady?

[Mario]

What was her name?

[Sonia]

Sonia.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Yeah, you're making some very dangerous generalities.

[Mario]

No, I ain't.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Yes, you are.

[Mario]

Y' all killed my cousin.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You said most sex in the park, so you.

[Sonia]

He had sex with a girl in the park.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You said most.

[Mario]

They assumed he had a gun by.

[Sonia]

Having sex in the park. How you assume somebody having a gun.

[Mario]

By having sex in the park?

[Kevin Donaldson]

I don't know. Maybe he was well endowed. So you said most. 17% of the population, as I said before, is black. Okay, so that means out of 320 million. Approximately 320 million people in the. In the world. If you do the math, you're looking at about what? I don't know, we'll say a nice round number. 50 to 60 million black people in the country. Okay. That's what the statistics say. Statistics aren't going to lie on that one. So most of them, that would mean over 30%. That's 30. That's 25 to 30 million people are getting shot by black people or shot by cops. So your claim doesn't hold water. Hello. How are you?

[Sonia]

Good.

[Mario]

How are you? Very good. I think that opinions and all this.

[Sonia]

Is good, but when it.

[Mario]

Okay, I was seeing how worked up she was getting. And overall, it affects our lives. And that's just period, point blank, it affects our lives and that's our family.

[Sonia]

And then it starts getting into our.

[Mario]

Real lives and what's reality and it's. It. It hits different. So I. I don't want to say we hate all cops, but when it's something that it's emotional, it's hard to let go.

[Sonia]

And so it's a hard opinion to change.

[Kevin Donaldson]

And that's good. And that's good. That's why we're here today.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Mario]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

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[Mario]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

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[Mario]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

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[Mario]

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[Kevin Donaldson]

She's made up her mind to live pretty smart. Learn to budget responsibly right from the start. She spends a little less in boots, more into savings keeps her blood pressure are low. When credits go raising, she's cutting it.

[Mario]

Right out of her life.

[Kevin Donaldson]

She tracks her cash at night. Boring money moves. Make kind of lame songs, but they sound pretty sweet to your wallet.

[Mario]

BNC Bank. Brilliantly boring since 1865.

[Kevin Donaldson]

My next claim is police officers should not be judged so harshly.

[Mario]

I think you guys should get judged even worse than anybody else because you guys are predators. You guys are not serving and protecting. You guys are seeking and destroying. You guys are ripping apart the very fabrics of the community. Taking a boy our rights.

[Kevin Donaldson]

All police.

[Mario]

Most of you guys.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Most of us.

[Mario]

Most of you guys.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So over 350,000 police officers. I'm just telling you. You said most.

[Mario]

There you go.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You said most.

[Mario]

There you go. Just like everybody else on the field, you guys all have the same complex. The moment you guys are like, called out on your quick.

[Kevin Donaldson]

What? What? What? Just like you did.

[Mario]

You don't even let me talk.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Feel free.

[Mario]

You feel me?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Yes, whatever. You are correct and I apologize for interrupting you.

[Mario]

And if you guys are lying to yourselves that you guys are trying to save the world or make a difference, what are you doing with your life? You could have became a nurse, a doctor. There's oceans to clean, there's pets to save. But you choose to run around with a badge that entitles you to act higher than anybody else, drive around and avoid traffic because you could flick the lights on. You walk around intimidating people, holding your vest, clicking your gun open. The moment people invoke their rights and act hostile to you, bro, we don't need you. We have our own rights. We have our own rights to carry. We pay our own taxes. The moment we up is where we let you guys have more power than the people. The very things that you use against us, we pay for that. We pay for your salary. Do you guys go out there freely acting with that badge like you guys can get away with anything over anybody? And you guys justify it because it's your word against ours, because you Guys are supposed to be honorable people, selfless people. But you guys are not, bro. You guys can't lie to the rest of the world just as much as you can't lie to yourselves. You guys are not honorable people. You guys are predators.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Okay, all right. There's a lot, There's a lot to unpack there. So you've never been helped by a police officer? Never once.

[Mario]

Not once.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So who do you call when you don't know what to do?

[Mario]

To be honest with you, I've called 911, but I've been rescued by the fire department. I've been extracted from a car by the paramedics, but it wasn't no police that were helping me.

[Kevin Donaldson]

It wasn't a police officer helping you. Okay, so in smaller departments, everything is routed through the police department. So the police officers are the first ones on, on scene. So that one person who has no idea where to call, that's what the police are there for. Now, does it happen all the time? Obviously not. They seem to have dropped the ball in your life. And for that I'm going to tell you right now, I'm sorry and I'll take the hit. For all police officers, I'm the one sitting here, I'm the one sitting in the hot seat and I'm the focus of that anger that you have towards the police department. But judging everybody by your own personal experiences with one, two, maybe a couple of bad apples of bad police officers, it's really doing a disservice to those people who do have the good intentions.

[Mario]

You guys don't have good intentions.

[Kevin Donaldson]

See, making a general statement like that, it's wrong.

[Mario]

But I mean, why can't you guys do other things with your life?

[Kevin Donaldson]

Because we want to be police officers and we want to help.

[Mario]

We want to be predators and have a power over everybody. Don't lie to yourself.

[Kevin Donaldson]

No, no, your statement is false. It's just flat out false. Because I spent my life and I damn near gave my life protecting people who, I don't know.

[Mario]

You could have done it in so many other fields.

[Kevin Donaldson]

But I did it then. But I did it. This is the way I chose to serve.

[Mario]

To join the very same people that are reputed to rip apart the communities.

[Kevin Donaldson]

From your perspective, the interactions that I've had, there's some. They are the most honorable, well rounded, level headed people that I know, but we've had different experiences. Now you're interrupting me. Now you're interrupting me. You just said you don't want to be interrupted, calling us cowards. So we're going to revert to name calling.

[Mario]

Does this shoe fit?

[Kevin Donaldson]

I'm going to tell you.

[Mario]

I'm going to 25 people to pull over one guy on the bike.

[Kevin Donaldson]

And this isn't. This isn't about ego. It's not about ego. I'm not going to fight you fair, man.

[Mario]

Guns, you guys are.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I'm not going to fight fair.

[Mario]

You guys got Tasers before you guys can click the trigger.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I never had a Taser.

[Mario]

You guys have night sticks before you guys can shoot somebody. But, yeah, you guys revert to killing people.

[Kevin Donaldson]

And there's a force continuum. There's laws in place for that.

[Mario]

It's just as many factors as you're bringing into the conversation that back up your side because you're a police officer. That's as many factors as every single person in this room has against the factors that you're saying make it right for you guys to act the way you guys act.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So, no.

[Sonia]

All right. Over half the flags. Hello again, Kevin.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Hello.

[Sonia]

I don't think any of us should be judged so harshly. We all judge. I've gotten judged a lot because of stupid, stupid things. When I was 16, just because it was a 51 50, I didn't really commit a crime. The only thing that I wanted to do was hurt myself. But in that moment, I got treated like a criminal. And that wasn't the first. That wasn't. That was the first time, not the last.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Well, listen to me. I, too, have been in that spot. I've had that gun in my mouth. It is not a fun place. It is an embarrassing place. But here's what I do know. When you get through that initial pain and initial harshness of it, and you realize the strength that it took to not do it, now all of a sudden, you start leading with that strength, and that becomes your power.

[Sonia]

Sometimes people don't get that choice.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I know they don't. And it's a sad state of affairs. I've been on calls where people have either killed themselves or attempted to kill themselves.

[Sonia]

There are a lot of people that have gotten killed. I was 110 pounds, 16. Definitely not someone that had any power over those cops. Definitely not a reason for them to keep holding their guns, to kind of approach me very quietly, just to search me as they did, to cuff me behind my.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Not everybody has instincts, hon.

[Sonia]

I get that.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I swear to God. You know, and listen, I'm not minimized. Not everybody has instincts in order to judge those feelings. And I'm sorry that happened to you.

[Sonia]

There are so many kids. There was an in 2020, there was a kid, Christian Hall. He was a 5150. And after holding his hands up for 14 seconds, surrendering, state troopers shot him seven times. They nothing has happened about that.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Do you know, up until about 15 years ago, police officers lacked training on what they call EDPs, emotionally disturbed persons.

[Sonia]

I think they should get more training. I don't know how often you guys re like re up that stuff. I don't know how often you guys go over it.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Minimum, I minimally.

[Sonia]

I agree it's not enough.

[Kevin Donaldson]

It's unacceptable.

[Sonia]

I. I didn't think I was a monster until the cops treated me like I was one. Handcuffing me to my bed, putting security bracelets on me. Sitting next to someone who chewed off his bracelet, took my food and ate it. I was 16. I was put in rooms with people that were so much older than me. There are other people that have gotten killed. I have so many loved ones that suffer from bipolar schizophrenia. In that moment, I would not want to call the cops because I don't want to risk their lives. I don't want them to get shot. If I have other options, I'm going to take those options. And I get it. You go in blind, you don't know what you're walking into. I wish they just had better judgment and they didn't judge so harshly because of things like that. Like just maybe read the room. There's a 16 year old and you feel the need to treat them like you're afraid of them, to shoot them, to hold your gun up to them.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So there's a balance here to handling somebody with emotional. Having an emotional episode, let's say. Unfortunately, certain people are not very good at this. But more money needs to be thrown into resources to train on this stuff because this is becoming a growingly identifiable issue.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Hi, how are you?

[Sonia]

Good. Okay. So this last conversation brought up a lot for me. I was also like very much 51, 50'd as a kid. I was having family problems. My parents didn't want to parent me. They would call the cops and say I was trying to kill myself. I'd be in my room sobbing. I never got any real help. No one listened to me. And when I was 19, I was kidnapped, raped, brutalized for 12 hours straight. And then I was found by police. And my first reaction was, I just want to go home. I don't want to deal with this. I felt like I was being interrogated. I was taken straight to like an Interrogation room. I still had like his pee on me. But no, I had to sit there and they go, oh, was it his left hand or his right hand? And I was like, I don't know, like there's no like trained professional that could offered me empathy. And the police were not offering me empathy. They wanted the facts, which I get. But it was so traumatizing that after that, after I, I was admitted to the hospital, I came home, tried to kill myself and told my mom. I wish I didn't survive that because I didn't ask for this. I have to go through all of this after I tried to kill myself. Was I given help? No, I had to go weekly back to get pictures of my injuries to tell them more details. And every single time, like it was like an out of body experience. And I.

[Mario]

That's changing.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I'm telling you now, that's changing. Okay, so what police departments are starting to do now is they're bringing in training because that police officer, I do know police officers who have asked questions like, what are you wearing? What were you wearing? Okay. And that while that is a non issue question for that police officer, he just wants to know what you're wearing. You're going to maybe view that as, as he trying to say, I was asking for it. Right? Yeah. So the new form of training when it comes to sexual assault. Okay. Just sexual assault is being done from a victim's perspective or a survivor. I don't like the word victim.

[Sonia]

Same.

[Kevin Donaldson]

All right. Police officers need to be trained in order to see it from your perspective. That way they can approach you with a little bit more sensitivity. And what's going to happen if you feel a little bit more comfortable and a little bit more understood by the police, you're going to give more information and you're going to give them a better investigation and they're going to make an arrest. So that's a wonderful thing. Okay. What happened to you was an awful, awful, awful thing. Unfortunately, these new things, these new techniques didn't start coming around until very recently.

[Sonia]

I'm glad they're coming around. Thank you.

[Mario]

I feel kind of strong on this opinion because mainly it's not that I feel like people aren't judging them too harsh because I feel like they do get judged pretty harsh. But sad to say, my tax dollars is coming out of my paycheck to pay police officers.

[Kevin Donaldson]

So when a police officer does something.

[Mario]

Wrong, let's say misconduct or something, they arrest somebody they shouldn't have, they, they get sued. That doesn't come from anybody but the tax dollars. So when I judge somebody because money is getting taken out of my check, I feel like it's fair, sir. But if it was somehow like, provided by, like, private funding, I feel like they shouldn't be judged as harsh. But my money is going towards the police department. That's why I judge so harshly.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That's a fair statement. And I can only tell you from my own perspective, I tried to hold myself to that high standard knowing that I was a representative of the community. Okay? And I took a lot of pride in that. So let me give you a little statistic here. And maybe this will put some perspective on why police officers get a little jaded at the end of their career. So the average person will see between two and six critical incidents, pretty much the worst day of your life. Throughout their Life, throughout a 20 year career, police officers will see upwards of 800 your worst day times 400. That's kind of what police officers do. So that weighs on your head. That weighs on your head. It's not an excuse. What it is is it's a cry for help to fix us internally so we can avoid these lawsuits, so we can avoid your taxpayers paying for that stuff. We don't want to be a burden on the community. Majority of us don't. Some of them just don't care. But we don't want to be a burden on the community financially like that. I'd rather you say I'm glad I pay his salary because he's one of the good ones.

[Mario]

No, and I totally agree because I play devil's advocate. I feel like generalization is just ignorance, honestly. So I don't generalize anything. There's good cops, there's good cops. There's bad cops. There's bad cops. But the bad ones cost a lot. So that's.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That's the only thing I have a problem with. But you are 100 on that one.

[Mario]

Thank you.

[Kevin Donaldson]

Now choose someone from the circle to debate again for another 10 minutes. Minutes. But based on a claim of their choice. Mario, something's calling me to bring you back up here because I think there's a lot on the table between you and I.

[Mario]

Well, I honestly think that you guys have caused more damage in my life than anything else I have ever dealt with. At the end of the day, honestly, I can't complain. You guys made me stronger. You guys made me who I am today. But I would have liked to have gone in a different way, you know, opposed to just getting that tough love, you know, getting sent to Jail for nine months for something I didn't do, for marijuana at that. I just feel like it's time to change, to change all this.

[Kevin Donaldson]

You know what the beautiful thing is, brother? You and I still got some air in our lungs, right? We're not dead yet. You and I have a chance to sit down at the table and work together. And that is where things start to get fixed. You see a problem, I see a problem. So let's fix it. As long as I have air in my breath, I'm never going to give up. I will never give up on you. I don't care what you did. I don't care. Everybody has a chance to change their life. And I said this before, a true miracle is a changed life. Okay? And I like to show my kids what a true miracle is.

[Mario]

Well, I think the damage has been done and there needs to be a lot of reparation towards the people. You know what I mean? There's a lot of pain that is still in the communities that the cops have imposed on us, and we still haven't healed. And I think we definitely need to talk about that.

[Kevin Donaldson]

And once that healing starts. You did it. You did it. In your statement earlier, you went from victim to victor. I'm sure there's a. There's a million other ways that would have been more beneficial to your life, but cops made you stronger. What you did is you started taking some of that power back. You stopped hating the cops so much for what they did. And now, all of a sudden, they don't live in your head rent free. The worst thing you can do is let anybody sit inside your head rent free. And unfortunately, some people who have been treated poorly by the police allow that to happen rather than sit there and find the good ones and make the active change. And that's why something was calling on. On me to bring you over here. Because I like what you're doing with the next generation. Because, listen, I'm on the back nine. You know, I'm going downhill. I don't have a whole lot of time left. But what I can do in that time is. And what you can do in your time left is amazing. If we start bringing that younger generation up.

[Mario]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I learned from my mistakes, and I'm just trying to lead by example, and that's it, you know, that's all I can do. You know, I think. I think my side can agree that we were wrong at some point, and.

[Kevin Donaldson]

My side can agree that we were wrong at some point.

[Mario]

Well, that's a Start.

[Kevin Donaldson]

That's a start. And guess what? We just take the first step and then before you know it, you and I will be rounding mile 16 in the marathon together. But you gotta take off the rings.

[Mario]

No, they don't come off, but yeah, all right, sounds good. Sure, man.

[Kevin Donaldson]

All right, brother. I think the majority of the comments came from watching too many videos there, being spoon fed information without having to develop a lot of their own personal opinions from firsthand experience. However, those people who did have that firsthand experience, their opinions, they really, they really impacted me more.

[Mario]

So I'm not upset at the cop that they brought. He's clearly a reasonable guy and that's why. And he was good at arguing.

[Sonia]

I could tell he was a little more compassionate, a little more open minded. That's not common for cops, at least what I've experienced. If he had been the person during my crisis any one of those times, I would have felt a lot safer.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I appreciate everybody bringing up the deficiencies within the police because believe it or not, police officers see the deficiency in the police department and there's steps being taken actively to erase those things.

[Mario]

Everything that he said about how, you know, the real good cops hate bad cops, that was like something that it hadn't caught my attention before, but I guess it's like, you know, little by little you learn to understand, but still like you got to agree to disagree. They hate us as much as we hate them.

[Sonia]

Kevin was cool. He might have came off a little strong in certain, like little topics or whatever, but you know, he probably feel how we feel, but just in a different way. Because he's a cop.

[Mario]

Because Kevin is a cop, I can't see him more than that. We can't be friends. We can't go any much further than that in that aspect. And it's sad to say, but that's just how I feel. But I think today we had a breakthrough. I think we got a step in the right direction and I think we definitely learned something from each other today.

[Kevin Donaldson]

I'm always going to be one sided towards the police because I've done that job. But I think listening to the other side is really how you get a well rounded perspective on something. So by approaching things with an open mind, say, hey, listen, I'm here, teach me something, I'm not going to be resistant to it. I think you can get a lot of stuff accomplished and I think that's how discussions should be had. Don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever you get your podcasts so that you don't miss an episode. And if you want to watch the video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.