Candace Owens (0:00)

You're trying to impose a lifestyle on. Savor every last drop of summer with Starbucks. From bold refreshers to rich cold brews, the sunniest season only gets better with the handcrafted ice beverage in your hand. Available for a limited time, your summer favorites are ready at Starbucks. 5am I'm up with a crisp Celsius energy drink running 12 miles today. Grab a green juice, quick change, and head to work. Meetings, workshops. One more Celsius. No slowing down. Working late, but obviously still meeting the girls for a little dancing. Celsius live fit. Go grab a cold, refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate now@celsius.com people that you want to live. Which I think is kind of funny because as someone who's anti feminism, you practice it more than most women do. I mean, every time you get on your podcast, every time you collect a check, you're practicing feminism. Okay. That's what you think. No, that's what it is, actually. Without feminism, you wouldn't be able to exist. Yeah, people keep saying. I hate when people say that, but it's just the truth. Just shows that you haven't done the research to even understand where the feminine or you don't know history. Straight from Jubilee Media, this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. Today's guest is the very popular podcaster and political commentator Candace Owens, who will be debating 20 feminists. Candace will debate them one on one until they are voted out by their peers and replaced by someone new. Let's get into it. Hi, my name is Candace Owens. I am a podcaster, a mother, a wife, and also the author of the upcoming book Make Him a Sandwich. And today I am surrounded by 20 feminists. My first claim is that the sexual revolution has devalued women and made them infinitely less happy. Hi. Hello. Hi. Hi, I'm Samaya. Samaya, nice to meet you. I'm Candace. Nice to meet you, too. So my question for you is, statistics show that 60% of women who are murdered are murdered by their intimate partners. Murdered by someone that they are in close relations with. That's according to the UN from 2023. Yeah. So how is it that women are so valued, quote, unquote, in the home, and yet that's the place where they're at the most danger? Okay, so I'm not sure what that has to do with the sexual revolution. Right, the sexual revolution. The sexual revolution gave people. I'm happy to answer it. I'm just saying that if you brought in that statistic, you are more likely in general just to be murdered by somebody you know, so. Of course. But men are much less likely to be murdered by, you know, their. That's not true. Yeah, I'm sure. Because men are less likely to be murdered by women, full stop. Yeah, exactly. That statistic makes sense to me. I'm still not sure how this correlates to whether or not it increased women's ability to leave the house, women's ability to control their own reproductive capabilities, women's ability to, you know, control their own capacity within the workforce in regards to their own sexual capacity. So it is the very fact that the sexual revolution happened that made our access to the workplace much more, or just the public sphere in general, much more easy. So, like, without the sexual revolution, women would be much more confined to the place where they're at the most danger. Isn't that true? So you think that just so I'm trying to understand your argument here, you think that if we didn't have the sexual revolution, less women or more women would be murdered? Are you saying that women are. More. Women would be murdered for sure. Okay, I disagree with that. I still don't think it has anything to do with the claim that women are infinitely less happy because of the sexual revolution, which has degraded. I think you'd probably be less happy if you're being murdered. Oh. Anyone disagree? Okay. Yeah, I don't. Okay. There is definitely a correlation between personal relationships and domestic violence. And just to be clear, if we're talking about just like a monogamous relationships, the most violent relationships that are on the books are between lesbian partners. Yes. When people are intimate. That's not a true. That is actually true there. No, the statistic you're talking about is people who have faced domestic violence. Lesbians, yes. Are more likely to have faced domestic violence, but that's because they typically came from relationships with men in which they're in. Well, lesbian relationships are the most violent relationships that we have on the planet. That's true, but we can move on. They can fact check that claim. The point being is that it's not exactly a stunning statistic to say that when people are in relationships, period, whether those relationships are homosexual, whether they. But you're saying that the sexual revolution. Let me finish. I've let you try to explain how this is correlated to happiness, and I don't think it does. I actually think you're having a different debate right now, but yes, absolutely. It makes perfect sense that you are more likely in general when you are in A relationship, because people are driven by anger, by people that they know. Whether or not we're talking about boyfriend and girlfriend, girlfriend and girlfriend. You know, a husband and a wife, a husband and a husband, or a wife and a wife. Yes, of course the instances of domestic violence are going to take place when you're inside of a home. But the sexual revolution, encouraging women to give up their goods for free, which is what I'm speaking about, and encouraging men not to marry these women or to have long term relationships. What I am saying is a direct contributor. How does their unhappiness. Because women are giving up their goods for free and women are now entering the workplace, and that does not actually make them happy. Okay, pause, Sorry. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seats. Hello. Hi there. How are you? I'm Candace. Nice to meet you. Julian. My pronouns are they them. It's very interesting to think of it when we just think about the gender binary. It's how do we place value on human beings in general? And so when we think about placing value, that comes from a place of power. So I think let's select the Victorian era. You have this dominant group of people coming from white supremacy deciding who gets to have a proper status in the world. And so that is already like taking human beings and devaluing them. And so what the sexual revolution did was to help people seek out empowerment, which increase value no matter the gender. So when it comes to sexual revolution, let's look at one contribution is sex education. I'm actually an educator. I teach sociology and LGBTQ studies. And I have absolutely seen the positive outcomes with the sexual revolution and sex education and seeing people empower themselves. And with that comes safety when it comes to decreasing STIs, abuse, sexual assault. Again, people get to empower themselves of all genders. And I know earlier you mentioned about violence amongst lesbians and Sapphic community, which I do identify within all genders can be subjected to violence. That was the point I was making. So I wasn't sure of how her claim was relating to what we were talking about. Whether or not it makes people happy or unhappy, relationships are obviously a ground where there can be violence. I guess I could just wrap it up by saying, like, if we all have access to sex education through the incredible work of feminists, through the sexual revolution, we are able to gain access to information and gain skills to create an equitable society, egalitarian within our relationships, whether it be platonic or romantic. I'm so grateful for those feminists who have fought for us so we can gain those spaces and create a healthier society. Okay. Are you a believer in the government doing everything that it can to make people happy? So when it comes. As someone that teaches in the public sector, I understand the concern. When it comes to what is a teacher, you know, what kind of information they're providing to the students, I do believe that we, as a teacher, I should be able to give that sort of information. Again, I teach college students. One of my claims is I believe that we should mandate sex education amongst college students. So, yes, I do want the state. I would like the government to give us those resources so we can implement that curriculum. Okay. Would you. You consider yourself a feminist? I'm assuming queer feminists, there's. There's diff. There's variations. Right. What is a queer feminist as opposed to a feminist? Just so I understand. Well, like. So I heavily believe in queer theory. So, you know, the gender binary that we understand, it comes from colonization. So someone who is mixed race, family from Mexico, you know, we have the Moshe of Mexico, which is an indigenous tribe, they believed in gender fluidity. And then you have European colonizers coming who dismantle that. And now everything that we understand when it comes to gender is a Western lens. So from a queer. So you don't even think women exist, I'm guessing. I think everyone should be empowered to figure out their identity and explore the language that best describes themselves. So freedom. America. Right, America, freedom. And I want to believe in that. When it comes to identity, everyone should have the freedom to decide how they want to identify, as long as they're not causing harm. But that's where we get into the debate. What is harm? So just again, to be clear, to go back to this claim, we are debating female happiness. You are saying you do not identify as a female. I identify with all gender expressions. So. From masculinity to femininity. So I'm just saying. Are you just saying that as a part of queer theory, you're debating whether or not women are happier after the sexual revolution? I'm just trying to understand because it seems like you're debating queer theory as opposed to female. I believe all genders benefit from the sexual revolution. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Hello, I'm Xena Zena. Very much like your name. Thank you so much. Nice to meet you. Can we start with the beginning? Do you identify as a female? I identify as a woman. Yeah. Okay. Right. So I do want to get back to your Premise. You're saying that women have been devalued. Right. By the sexual revolution. This kind of presumes two things. One, that there has been a loss of worth. Right. For women. So you're saying that women have, as human beings, lost worth. Women who, prior to their sexual revolution, were worth more than women today? I would say that, yes, women have devalued themselves by becoming overtly sexual. That's my claim. So, I mean, also, according to just. And let's not remove this from the other part of the claim, which. That it has made women infinitely less happy. Right. So are you saying. But you're saying that according to you, women have been devalued. Not according to me. According to the time in which people are getting married, how difficult it is for people to find a partner that's willing to commit to them. And I think that's in large part due to the fact that women are offering sex for free because it was a main, you know, a major component of the sexual revolution was this idea. So a woman's worth is tied to her sexuality? It's not tied. Well, absolutely. If you're gonna be having multiple partners, you are going to be devaluing yourself. You're worth less as a human being. Not as a human being, just, you know, in terms of trying to have a partnership and a productive relationship. Certainly men are not going to be clamoring to have a relationship with somebody when there's. The market is growing them. A man's response to your actions is what defines your worth, right? Yeah. Well, I would say that. I would argue that at the. What makes women actually happy is family. So if you're interrupting. So just to connect the dots for you, when women are having sex with multiple partners, it devalues them for men, right? For men, yes. So men define a woman's worth? Well, I would say both of them kind of define one another's worth because I think the ultimate goal for people to be happy is actually family. Okay, so you're saying in all cases, a woman is going to be more fulfilled in regards to family. Exactly what I'm saying. And this is going to work in all cases. You're saying there's no individual case in which a woman can feel, you know, fulfilled without being tied to other people? In the case of family, I think there could be an exceptional case for everything. I think there are exceptional cases, but I think that if we all start trying to be the exception, as opposed to recognizing the rule, which is that people in life are more fulfilled when they achieve a family unit and when they have children, women in particular especially having aspiring to children, then you are going to end up with a bunch of people who are unhappy because your job cannot replace the feeling of having a family. So what you're saying is we need to look at every individual case and see what is going to fulfill you or what is going to, I guess essentially predict your happiness more. Because if we look at for example, the Nordic countries, right? These are countries I'm talking about like Sweden, Denmark, right. These countries tend to be like, I think in the past 14 years they've been ranked as the highest in happiness and marital satisfaction from women. Right. And we see that they also have been the most open regards to like, you know, sexual norms and, you know, sexual roles. Right. So. And we also see that there's less rates of like STDs reported. We see more. And that's also due to comprehensive sex education that's pushed in those countries. So we see that when we. And that's like a direct result of the sexual revolution, right? So when we're seeing that direct reports of happiness, right? We don't have these same rates in America in these countries that are more sexually open. Why would we see like those rates in those type of countries? So I think you might be referring to this sort of mass produced study that was a part of like a behavioral science study which said that women were the happiest women in the world. Were women that were actually unmarried and had careers now. Okay, well, it was happiness. Okay, sure, I'm talking about the same thing. It was reported happiness. But it could be a different. There's tons of studies. The point being is that in 20, in 2023, there was this massive scandal where they recognized that a lot of these studies that were being produced, behavioral science was proven to be a complete fraud and they were unable to reproduce. And they also found that the data had been faked. The data that we can look at that I think shows, and you can let me know if you agree with this. If women under the imagination of the feminist umbrella were really unhappy when they were in the home and then entering the workforce has made women happier and infinitely feeling more secure about themselves. We could, I think, reasonably expect that there would have been a decrease in suicide rates amongst women. You would have to go ahead and show how that correlation. Right. Is going to be a direct cause of women going into the workforce. Okay, well, how can we measure then? You have to give me a way that we can measure happiness. How can we measure happiness? So I would say suicide rates would be a good thing to look at. Drug alcohol consumption would be a good thing. Of course. Right. But we have to. I can say at this point in society, I don't think everyone is happy. I think there's a lot of things that we need to reconcile to. That's what I'm getting at. Right. But we have to look at the cause. Right. Why are these things predicted? Right. And for example, if we talk about mental health, there are a lot of things we can look at. Right. That tend to predetermine suicide. Right. But we can't say, oh, these two things are happening at the same time. This caused this other thing. Yes, that's right. But I do think that we can objectively say that women who are committing suicide rates more than they were in the 1950s, like, it has actually increased marginally. That's not a sign that us entering the workforce suddenly made us more happy. How is it cause of the workforce, we're also binge drinking at a higher rate. How is this cause of the opioids at a higher house is a cause of entertainment? Because I think women are being put on a pathway aspirationally. But you're gonna have to. You're saying you think this. Right. But where is worth the cause? Like, you're not substantiating the claim. You're saying, this is what I think I'm seeing too. Okay, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Thank you so much. Great job. Great job. Hello, Howie. Hi, I'm Nikki. Nice to meet you. So when we're talking about the value of women on a societal scale and how we view each other. Right. When you're devaluing us, you're objectifying us. And follow me, I promise. But rape rates have gone down by about half in the last 20 years. Right. So if you're saying we're less valuable now, why wouldn't we be suffering at a higher rate? So is the argument that you're making just so I understand that because women are giving up sex for free, they're not being raped. Every study shows rape is not correlated with just sexual gratification. It is a power structure. Okay, so it is about objectifying and abusing women when you rape them, not about whether or not you want sex. What I am saying is that women are less objectified, so therefore, we are being raped less. Okay, so you think that in today's society. Because this is pretty wild for me, in the 1950s, you're saying women were more objectified than today in the land of onlyfans, the Kardashian clan and women that are essentially putting up their boobs and butts for free on Instagram. You're saying we are now we finally have achieved less objectification where women can't even get onto in advertising. You can't even advertise a bag without them having to be naked in order for them to get a career as a model. You're saying, oh great, we've achieved actually less objectification. So I'm not trying to suggest that I think that the over commodification of women's bodies is positive. But what I am saying is that when you're going to the 1950s, that we shouldn't put this glazed look of oh, it was so happy. We had single income households and we got to stay home. We also had a pill popping problem. We also were viewed as maids. Like we were seen as a house appliance far more than we were as people. And so when you have that kind of objectification where you are in a subservient position. I think we're facing a different form today. But I think that rape is a signifier of a contradiction to your statement. Okay, does that make sense? It doesn't make sense, but I do want to rebut it on a couple of points. So first I just want to say suggesting that objectification has gone downward since the 1950s as well. That's just a firm no, that is not the truth and you know that's not true. Wait, so do you find. Hold on, let me, let me answer your second thing. I think you then brought up, okay, women were at home, but they were pill popping. Well, you then have to acknowledge we're actually popping more pills now. Right. So we have actually increased our amount of pill popping. Women are having overdoses on opioids. And on top of that, Since I think 1999, by rate, we are increasing our opioid use compared to men. So women are not popping pills less because we're going into the workforce. That's actually not true at all either. And we're also, like I said too, consuming alcohol more and binge drinking more than we did in the 1950s. Which is why I was trying to get her to say we need to look at actually a reasonable. Give me any reasonable metric of how we can define happiness. Because it's hard, right? Are you happy? Yes or no? Sure. But wait, hold on. We're actually avoiding what my original point was, was about rape being the signifier okay, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Thank you. Nice to meet you. Hi. Hi. I like your hat. Whitney Shanahan. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. I am fascinated by your claim that women have lost happiness since the sexual revolution, since the 1950s. Do you think that there is any tie to happiness and freedom and happiness and choice? Because since 1950s, since the sexual revolution, women have gotten exponentially more freedom and more choice. And for me, as a mother and as a woman, having the freedom to choose what I do, to make my own destiny makes me infinitely more happy than, say, back before the sexual revolution when I couldn't get a bank account, couldn't get a home loan, couldn't work outside the home, couldn't travel around without a man, couldn't control my own reproduction. So I feel that happiness, personally, my belief is tied to our ability to have freedom. And I think that in the United States, protecting freedom and our individual freedoms is what's going to lead us to happiness. Did you go to college? Absolutely. Okay, great. Did you? Yes, I did. So you have a degree. Absolutely. Now, when you went to college, did you go to college because it was simply something that you wanted to do, or did you think that I have to go to college because in order to get a job, I have to have a college degree? I went to college for art because I was fascinated with art. Okay, just answering my question. Did you go to college? Was that the only reason you went to college? Or did you think that I might want to do something in art so I have to go to college, like, for my career? I went to school because I wanted to expand my horizons. I mean, I think that's why most people go to university. That's actually not true. I went and I think a lot of people go because there's a pressure that if you don't go to college, you're going to be a failure? It's a choice. Everything's a choice. So taking away choices doesn't make people happier? Taking away choices doesn't make people happier. I'm disagreeing with you on the idea that people are feeling more free by financial pressure. I think financial pressure makes people feel remarkably less free. So you want no bank accounts, again, women, not to have credit cards. I'm not saying that women shouldn't have access to credit cards or banking accounts. You're putting words in my mouth, so why don't you respond to the words that I'm saying? Well, less financial pressure. If I don't Have a bank account. That's a lot less financial pressure, I guess. Right, Financial pressure. In terms of most people that go to college, and I'm counting myself among them, it's because typically in order to get the job that you're being sold is gonna make you infinitely happier and infinitely more free. It just requires a college degree. And most of these people, to be clear, have to put themselves, the majority of people have to put themselves into debt. And I don't think anybody would describe debt as a form of freedom. Right. I don't think anybody would realistically say, let's get back to happiness. So we're here to talk about happiness and how the sexual revolution and we're not talking about college debt. I think it's important because we are, we're talking about freedom. You just said that the reason why I feel happy is because I have more freedom. And I am saying that financial restraints and debt doesn't make people feel more free. Let's eliminate the debt, let's eliminate colleges. Maybe we should have free college here in the U.S. that sounds great. Great idea, Candice. I love that idea. All right. Okay. Love it. Champion. Champion for the people, girl. Very nice. All right, return to your seat. She's made up her mind to live pretty smart Learn to budget responsibly right from the start she spends a little less inputs pouring through savings Keeps her blood pressure low and credit score raises she's gottin get right out of her life she tracks her cash flow on a spreadsheet at night Boring money moves make kinda lame songs but they sound pretty sweet to your wallet brilliantly boring since 1865. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free today@greenlight.com Spotify My second claim is that no career will give women as much joy and fulfillment as raising children. Not today. Hi, Candice, how are you? Hi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. I'm John. Okay, so I feel like a lot of your arguments today are very rooted in a sort of old school perspective. I have to be honest, like I think, and I'm not trying to be insulting whatsoever. I feel as though Most people would identify. That claim is pretty extreme. And pretty. Like children are extreme? Well, no. That women would get more happiness inherently from raising kids than having a job or deciding what they want to do with their lives. Why is that? I'm just curious. Why would having children, which is just a natural biological conclusion, be something that sounds extreme. I just said inherently. Inherently. But that's the inherent expectation that's better for women. It's inherent because it's biological. So I think when we think about things that. I think biology's a good thing to start with. Right. So biologically speaking, men and women come together, they form families. And that's the reason why you're sitting here. That's the reason that I'm sitting here is because biology is inherent. So saying. It's just natural order that we're speaking about. Right. Okay, let's break it down. So why do you believe that? Why do you believe that? Why do I believe that? Why do you inherently. Inherently are happier? Yeah, you keep stressing this word, inherent. Yeah. Yeah. I think because it speaks to natural order. And every piece of life, I think, is enriched by children. Do you think it's natural for women to get to decide what they want to do with their lives? Do not think that saying women can decide whether or not they want to go to work or have children is problematic. What I'm saying to you is that women will get the most fulfillment from having a family because it's natural. It's natural. But also, children are wonderful and beautiful and spiritually divine creatures. I mean, they're just. They're amazing. There's everything about having a child. Yes. It's a lot of work is just. It's beautiful. I hear that. Okay, what if there's a little girl born and it's her dream, her entire life, to be an author or to be on TV or any of these things. And having children is very expensive. It takes a lot of time. So how is it better for that? And I understand this is hypothetical, but that hypothetical little girl to have children than to pursue these things that would make her happy as she gets older. I just think that if she publishes the book and she has a child, she would agree with me that the child was more fulfilling and made her happy. That's what I'm happier than the book did, is what I'm saying. And I say this as a published author of a New York Times. I would choose my children over my bestselling book. And I was that little girl who had a dream that, like, oh, it Would be really great if I could share my thoughts and ideas in a book. But it is utter insanity for me to reflect on that and say that I would have rather published Blackout than to have my three children. Well, why is it rather. You see what I'm saying? It's not rather. I'm just saying that's. Your claim is that it's better, it will be more fulfilled. Yes. Right. So rather. Well, if it's an either or. If you're saying it's an either or. I'm just saying that if these two things are happening, have happened in your life, the thing that will bring you more spiritual fulfillment will be children. And so women who are neglecting that, who are neglecting the pathway to strive toward family because they think their career is going to hug them at night, or they think that when they're on their deathbed, their career is gonna come up next to them and say, you were so great to me. I think that they have stepped into a delusion, and I'm hopeful that they wake up from it before it's too late. All right, pause. Sorry. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Hi. Nice to meet you. Okay, so currently, women make up about 47% of the workforce. If this were the case, and that women were just inherently unhappy or unfulfilled working and would just prefer to be at home, why don't they? Because we've made that, due to prior feminist waves, nearly impossible. Because now, which I believe the reason that the government wanted women to enter the workforce was because it gave them an opportunity to tax a household twice. And so this goes back to what I was saying is that there's a lot of financial pressure that is being exerted on young women to enter the workforce. And they do so blindly under this illusion that somehow entering the workforce is going to make you more fulfilled. Like. Like getting yourself into six figures of debt, going to college to then take on a career and be in debt and having to pay student loans While you make 35k is going to make you happier. And I'm saying that isn't actually true. Okay, so I hear that. Yeah. At the same time, would you not agree that men and that women can both have a career and have children? I mean, you are actively doing that right now. And I want to be very clear, because I am actively doing it right now. I would be someone that you would call an exception because I get to work from home, I get to wake up in the morning, I don't have a Ball. I don't have to go into the office from 9 to 5. I get to therefore spend the entire morning with my children. So you're an exception. And the 47% of women that make up our labor force are also an exception. No, the exact opposite. So I'm trying to make it more realistic because I think it's really bad form when people who are able to stay at home. Right. And are able to start working at 1 o' clock PM as I do after being around their children. The children are running around all day. Will then preach to you that every woman can have this. That's not the reality. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of people are stuck behind a desk all day and they're not happy. They're not doing work that gratifies them at all. And at the same time, they're suspending. Well, that's just what career you've chosen. But I think that the issue with it, I think they work a 9 to 5. I think that's okay. Yes. But if it's the job that is making them unhappy, then maybe they should have chosen a different career path and not the structure of the career itself. But my issue with this is that not only is it claiming that women can't both be mothers and have jobs, which we know to be true because millions of women do that. My mother does that. You are actively doing it right now, but it also is qualifying what every single woman in this country wants without any clear evidence. I mean, there's 169 million women in this country over. How can you say that you know exactly what every woman secretly wants or you ask? That wasn't my claim that I secretly know what every single woman wants. I'm saying that if you measure up at the end of your life, what brought you more fulfillment? Your career or a child? Children raising children in your family. We will discover that. And there actually have been studies, people that have gone to people on their deathbeds. And the number one regret that people have was that they gave too much to their careers. And this includes men, by the way. Well, yeah, that's true. I mean, of course human relation is gonna be valued over money and profit. So then don't. At the same time, what? Does that even agree with my argument at all? You're agreeing with my argument. Humans prefer humans over a job. But that's not just singular to women. That's everyone. And my question is, what does that even have to. What is the goal of that? Should every woman quit working and just have a Child. Well, I'm just trying to warn you that if you decide to suspend that pursuit of family because you think that you have to first climb the ladder, a lot of women make that mistake, and they don't end up finding a partner. But that's their right. It's free will. You definitely have a right to make a mistake. You don't get to say what people should and shouldn't do. I didn't come. I don't think my claim is this is what people should or should not do. I'm just simply stating that my claim is that you will be more fulfilled if you focus on trying to. You need to decide what other people are fulfilled by. Okay, I am making my claim here that women are infinitely more fulfilled in the household and raising children than they are taking that 9 to 5 job. But you have no evidence of that. In fact, you are evidence against your own claim. I'm not evidence against my own claim. You are here at work right now. I've literally said, I am telling you women cannot have it all. That is an illusion. And that is an illusion that is stressing women out. And I think it is the reason why so many women are turning to popping pills, why there's been such a significant more than 1000% increase. But men can have it all. Men can be fathers and have a job, but women can't do that. I don't think you can have it all. It sounds like you're devaluing women. I think that women can do everything that a man can. It sounds like women do. And men have done this historically throughout time In Memoriam. I think women is our topic, debate topic today. So women exist in a society with men. We are comparing. Women are trying to be both women and men. And that is why women are unhappy today, is because actually, what's quite ironic about the feminist movement is that I think women are just trying to be people. I think women have been taught that being a woman is not enough and that you have to also aspire to be a man. And that's the irony. It's like a psychological conditioning. What feminists went out and did and said is that in order for women to have value, women need to be like men. And I'm saying that actually women and men are biologically different. There are differences in our behavior. There are differences in our desires. And I think evidence of the feminist movement, by the way, shows us that because even when women enter into the college education space, the pathways of career that we choose are different from men because we're biologically different. Right. Okay, so let's say that this is true, that women truly are more fulfilled at home. Now, the average cost of raising a child a year is around $21,000 or more. So my issue is, are you saying that women should just suddenly stop working? And now the onus is entirely on men? Like the society that you're pitching is not sustainable economically. It was sustained economically, but it's not right now. Naima, you've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Hi, I'm Ceci. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. So your claim is that women will be happier at home. I think you're conflating, though, happiness with importance, because I get what you're saying, where a woman can write a book and have kids, but the kids are always gonna make her happier. But I think it just means that kids are always gonna be more important. Not necessarily make you happier, but also piggy packing on. Naima, we don't live in an economy where people typically can have a one income household. Right. Whether it be the mom or dad that stays home. And so I think. And you keep bringing up the 1950s, which, because it was right before the fact, I just don't know if that's the period of time that you want to go back to. I'm just going back to the first wave of feminism. You want to undo progress that's been done. So I'm curious as to what decades you'd be comfortable living in, especially as a black woman. Okay, so we're gonna park aside the race politics. Cause I wanna focus on. Okay, then as a woman, what period of time do you wanna go back to just as a woman? I think that it was probably a better environment for women when we were. We understood that raising our children was fulfilling. But some women still do understand that, right? A lot of women. And I'm one of them. And I'm here advocating for you to be able to live the life that you want and for other women to be able to live the lives they want. Do you have children? No. Okay. You have a career, I presume? Yeah. Okay. What do you work? What field do you work in? I do hair. Okay, wonderful. So I have both children and a career, as somebody pointed out. And so the fact that I'm saying that you will be infinitely more fulfilled at the end of the day by raising your children than you will be if you come home and you say, wow, I really crushed it dyeing somebody's hair today. What is it exactly that makes you angry about hearing that? Like, that's what I'm. I'm actually trying. Nothing makes sense. I'm trying to get to that. You know, what's the implicit revolution thing is that no one is when someone mentions children. No, see, no one's angry when you mention children. I get angry, I guess when you mention that someone should have a children or you're trying to impose a lifestyle onto people that you want to live. Which I think is kind of funny because as someone who's anti feminism, you practice it more than most women do. I mean, every time you get on your podcast, every time you collect a check, you're practicing feminism. Okay, that's what you think? No, that's what it is. Because without feminism, you wouldn't be able to exist. Yeah, people keep saying. I hate when people say that, but it's just the truth. It just shows that you haven't done the research to even understand where the or you don't know history which was discovered. That's what I'm saying about you because it means that you don't understand that a bunch of government officials in the CIA funded the feminist movement. So for all of your hatred for the people, I'm confused. So my question is, is it bad that they funded it or bad that it just happened? Men wanted women to go into the workforce. The government, which had a lot of men. Are you talking about. Because World War II occurred and we had to go to factories, and then when we left the factories, they forced us back into the homes. That's not what I'm saying at all. So let me tell you what I'm saying and then you can respond to it. Go for it. Gloria Steinem is considered to be a feminist icon, right? Because she led these protests. She also had a bunch of music festivals. She got students involved. It is just a fact that Gloria Steinem was funded by the CIA. Okay, the CIA, being the male dominated CIA of the 50s and the 60s, funded those movements. So what do you think was the explicit aim? Do you think it was because the government really wanted you to be more free, that they wanted to encourage women to enter the. Well, I have to be honest with you, I couldn't speak on behalf of the government. You know what I mean? And what their intention was? Well, I think it's important because you just said that I don't know history. And I think it's pretty important if you're gonna sit across from me and say, I don't know history, that you learn a piece of and then question as you keep bringing up men. And I think it's funny because we should talk about men more. Like you brought up suicide. They're four times more likely to kill themselves, which is why I do. And while women, we're twice as more often on antidepressants. But that's cause we go out and do what we need to do to keep coping. Cause we're not happy. And we need to focus on men and the patriarchy because it's actually oppressed them just as much as women now emotionally. Right. Because when we're kids, our parents teach us how to cross street, look both ways. You can get the other side unharmed. When a boy comes across a feeling, and I'm using men and boys here because they're the ones suffering. Women are too. But emotionally, when they come across a feeling they haven't felt before, we have to teach them how to get to the other side and cope with it. Otherwise they stay where they are. That anger and resentment builds. That's the feeling they become most comfortable with. That's the feeling they go to first in most situations. So we need to stop telling our boys that they don't cry because they do. They just do it alone. And then they become even more alone. All right, Jasmine, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Okay, so you say that women are more fulfilled at home with kids than going out into the workforce or getting educated. But that just really doesn't bear out when you look at the stats. When you look at how working mothers are way less likely to be in poverty. Maternal education is the number one predictor of childhood outcomes. Better scores, getting higher incomes in the future, fewer behavioral problems, better mental health. So it's weird to me with. And college educated women are least likely to get divorced. And they're the only women. The top 10% of women are the only women whose marriage rates are going up. So they're getting married, they're staying married, and their kids are doing better. When you look at stay at home mothers, you see that they're more likely to report being depressed, they're more likely to report having anxiety and anger and all these types of things. So how can you say that seems like a woman. If you want to get married and have kids, you should go to college and have have a career. So it sounds to me like we are looking at totally different statistics because everything that you said, I've actually read the exact opposite. I'm glad we're on a fact check show with you. Right, exactly. Oh, it's so exciting. That's gonna be amazing. Okay. Because I know, like I said, I think what we're talking about is that there was this widespread report on female happiness and I know that it was formally debunked and it was. That's not what I'm talking about. Pew Research, University of California. In fact, working mothers today spend more time with their children than women did in the 1960s that were at home. Okay, well, women that, I can tell you, women that are at home are obviously spending more time with their. And the people who are at work and their children are not faring off any better and they're faring off worse. How are you measuring their children faring off worse? How likely they are to higher incomes, better scores, fewer health problems, fewer behavioral issues, and better mental. So just to get back to the claim that I'm making here is that it is obvious that women who have children are going to be more fulfilled. How is that obvious? Because you said so. No, it's not obvious because I said so. It's because when you look at all the statistics in terms of women who are choosing not to have families, they are, as the person who just sat here before you mentioned, they are suffering from more depression, they're suffering from more anxiety. That's not true. Okay, it is true. It is actually true that women who are choosing their careers over starting families are finding themselves leaning more onto medicines like Xanax, anxiety inducing medicines and depression because they suspended that timeframe where women really should be looking to find a partner and to start a family because they were instead pursuing their careers. Why are you at all. It has been. It is a dishonest, it is totally a dishonest narrative that men and women want the same things out of life. We don't, we absolutely do not want the same things out of life. In fact, we don't even measure, we don't even measure success the same. Men and women don't even measure success the same. So, but tell me how the women who are working and getting educated, why are they faring off better in all of these? I am telling you that I do not believe they are faring off better in all of these measures because of what I am telling you that we are looking at totally opposite statistics. Like, so you're sitting here telling me that the statistics show that women who are working are producing better children, but I am saying that women that grow up in a two family home where the mother stays at home are faring off better than the children who are being raised in an environment where the women Are working where? Both of the parents are working from the home. I do get to work from home. No, no, no. But that's the irony. I've watched your show. You talk about all the nannies you hire and it's so hard to find a good nanny. Talked about all of the nannies I hired. Yeah, you have. I spoke about how difficult it was to find a babysitter who knew how to cook a meal, and that's because. Who knew how to cook? You don't need a babysitter. You're already. You could retire right now. You have to let people respond to you when they're speaking. You don't want to. To respond to you when it's no, you don't want to. You want to be working, which is great. You're telling me what I want now and then accusing me of telling you. Wait, are you do you don't wanna work. Can you just let me finish? Cause you've said so many words that you just. What you're trying to do here, like your argument style is I'm gonna say so much and not let her get a word in and then walk away and feel like I've won. We're not having a conversation. You've not letting me respond to each one of your points. Go for it. Okay, What I am saying to you, first, to answer what you just said, which was a lie. What I spoke to you about on the weekends is that it's been increasingly difficult to find a 25 year old who even knows how to make box macaroni and cheese. Right? And that's crazy. And that is in large part due to feminism. Women don't even focus. Women don't even focus. Like there's this idea that women shouldn't be cooking. Like there's something fundamentally wrong with women even learning how to cook. Are you spending as much time with your children as you possibly can because that's the way to get the most fulfillment. No. And that's what I'm trying to say. I am speaking to you. Go ahead and stop, okay? Could you please let somebody get in? You actually have not let anybody finish. And like I said, no one benefits when you're just speaking over me and not allowing me to respond. All you're proving is that you have an attitude and you do feminism, but you're not. See, that's what I'm saying. You just have an attitude and it's not. It's not. It's performative. I would love to address my point. I will be quiet if you address my point. Does anybody actually feel here that I am being allowed to address any of her points when she just running over me? Like I'm literally trying to answer your first point of you saying that I don't stay at home. Yeah, fair point. Really weird. Fair point. Obviously, I get that you're all anti Candace and pro feminist, but also it's not productive if you're not actually. Okay, address the point. You spend more time saying that. I'm not addressing that. You, you, you don't have a chance to talk when you. The whole time. You could have addressed the point. You could have talked. I go for it. Just want you to know that you're not coming across as somebody who wants to actually have a conversation. So to get back to the claim, because I don't even know where you're at, you're now talking. You're saying that I said stuff my. I'll go wherever you want to go. I never said I'll go wherever. Do you want to start with me working at home? Because I work at home. You just said something about me working. You travel all around the world. Okay, I. You, you do. You do speeches and I love that. I love how ambitious you are. That's a really great trait. And if you truly said that, you would be more fulfilled. Now, one thing you do find is women, they don't want to stay at home when you pull them. They just want flexible working hours and flexible working conditions like you have. And I think we should all advocate for that. It's not one or the other, but when you sit here and you go, you'll be more fulfilled doing this and spend all your time doing that. We would love for you to leave the public eye and go focus on what makes you fulfilled. Ok. This episode is brought to you by Polestar. There's only one true way to experience the all electric luxury SUV Polestar 3. And that's to take a test drive. It can go from 0 to 60 in as little as 4.8 seconds with the dynamic handling of a sports car. But to truly understand how it commands the road, you need to be behind the wheel. Up to 350 miles of range. The 3D surround sound system by Bowers and Wilkins. It's all something you have to experience to believe. So book your Test drive for Polestar 3 today@Polestar.com. hey there travelers. Kaley Cuoco here. Sorry to interrupt your music. Great artist BT Dubs, but wouldn't you rather be there to hear it live with Priceline? You can get out of your dreams and into your dream concert. They've got millions of travel deals to get you to that festival, gig, rave, sound bath or sonic experience you've been dreaming of. Download the Priceline app today and you can save up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights. So don't just drink about that trip. Book it with Priceline. Go to your happy price, Priceline. My next claim is that we live under a matriarchy, not a patriarchy. Hi. Hello. Nice to meet you. It's a pleasure to meet you. I'm Princella, the queen maker. I love that. So you say we live in a matriarchy. Right. Can you give me the definition of patriarchy? Yes. Well, the patriarchy is the idea that the system, our system in America is being run by men and are having to exist under a system that immediately disadvantages them because men are behind it. And I disagree with that pointedly. I think actually we're living in a society where people are being very much influenced socially and politically by women. Okay. So the denotative definition of patriarchy is father rule, and where positions of government are held majorly by men, where women are largely, largely excluded. So 125 House of Representatives are female, and that's only about 25%. And only about 28% make up Senate and 3.3% of Congress up until this date have ever been women. So by denotative definition, we literally live in a patriarchy. Yes. So I disagree with that. So I think what this gets to, which is actually an important part of the conversation, is that people always think that where there is disparity, there's somehow inequality. And I actually reject that entirely. I think it's just a difference in what. I think we're biologically wired, we're interested in different careers. And just because if we looked in the fashion industry and said, oh, well, it's being dominated by women, it wouldn't mean that. Okay, well, that means that the fashion industry is a matriarchy and men have no sense. It just means have no ability to communicate how they feel. In the fashion industry. I literally think that those numbers show that we're just biologically different. So I actually think politically, women have shown that they have have a lot more power than men have. And I'm talking about just in terms of political movements. The most recent I can think of is the MeToo movement. Right. If a bunch of women get together and complain about a man and refer to the patriarchy and scream, generally speaking, let me know if you Agree. The media will celebrate that. If a bunch of men got together and were shrieking and speaking about women, generally speaking, the media would call them all white supremacists and say that we had a misogyny problem and that things were really wrong in society. Women are allowed to be more vocal in general about problems in men are. Well, let me speak to that. When we're talking about government and media, these are two different things. So under the denotative definition of a patriarchy, by the percentages that are occupied in the government, which is majority male, defines us as a patriarchy. Now, what it comes to for capitalism, for marketing purposes and control, for capital and revenue, that is a totally different conversation. But who's making the laws? I don't think that women are the ones voting to have their reproductive rights taken away, where you have rape, incest, and all of these things excluded to force women to be able to have. I don't think women in government would largely vote against their own interests because it's majority male patriarchy. Okay, I think. Love that point. Are women allowed to vote? Oh, of course they are. Who's voting that patriarchy? And then out of curiosity. No, I totally agree. And you want to know why? Because there are so many women who think like you. You submit to the idea of men ruling everything. And your ideology is spread across a lot of women who also falsely believe to vote against their own interests just to complain about it. In the end, you know, earlier you said that, you know, women would be much more happier working at home. But don't you agree that it's human nature to want things that you don't have? So during the 1950s, which is something that you constantly bring up, you know, it wasn't until 1994 that it was legally illegal to beat your wife. And so what we're dealing with is people wanting something, and then when they get it, they're not happy with it, and then they have to revoke that idea for something else. And so what you're saying is that women vote for these things because they have the same mentality as you. Okay, so you're acknowledging that women have the freedom to vote. Yes. And you're saying that women are still existing mentally, even with the freedom to vote. Correct. They are voting men in because we are still victims of. No, I don't believe in victimhood. I believe in lack of education and lack of knowledge. Because one of the things that you also said. Do you think that it could just be that more men are running for positions of office? No, not necessarily. Because remember the United States. The average reading comprehension of people in the United States is sixth grade. So we're not dealing with. With educated people. Lack of education is the cause for what we see in the world. And if we educate the women better, because a nation can rise no higher than this woman. And if she reading and comprehending at a sixth grade level and popping out a lot of kids, you know, because the brokest people in the world pop out the most kids. So if we have those people voting, of course they're going to vote against their interests because they voting for some utopian society that will never exist. Okay, so that's why you think Kamala lost. This ain't even about Kamala. Because you're talking about women. No, but we had an opportunity. Yeah, go ahead. We had a male running and we had a female running, and we actually showed that Trump increased the amount of women who voted for him. Right. So I'm asking you, do you believe that the reason that happened was because women became less educated during that time? They've always been less educated. Did you know that UNESCO says that 2/3 of the 700, the 7.7 million illiterate adults is women? Illiterate. And we have 6th grade educated people voting. And guess who? Guess. The dominant population is white women. And so guess what? Now you have to add a race element into that which you already know exists, because we, as black folks, we ain't the dominant people voting people in. Okay, so now when we have to go into white supremacy, and now you have to look at the mind of the people who actually have economic success and what they're voting for, because classism actually matters as well. So I'm sorry, but a lot of people vote based on their feelings and not based on policy. Pause, guys. Yes, Sorry. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your speaker. Thank you for the respectful conversation. Hi. Hi, how are you? Great to meet you. I'm doing. So I view this argument as a matter of fact. Right. This is a descriptive claim about the culture, reality we live in, and patriarchy being a system in which men hold the predominance of power in both political, economic, and social methods of organization. So S&P 500 companies. 90% of CEOs are men. Board members. 70% of CEOs are men. 70% of congressional members are. Now, you may provide some sort of naturalistic argument to why that is, but what you're essentially arguing then is that there's a natural patriarchy, which I think feminists would all disagree with. We think that there's a clear social pressure as to why this is. And part of the evidence for that is since feminism's arise within our public culture, we've now seen an explosion of women entering these fields. But we have a long way to go. But fundamentally, the claim regarding patriarchy or matriarchy, we are so much closer to where we were just a few decades ago or several a couple generations ago, where women couldn't hold a credit card than a system where men can't hold a credit card. We're still much closer to that form of society. Why would you say that we're closer to that? What do you mean by that? Did you just qualify that? Because in terms of economic power. So, for example, household wealth, women own 55 cents to every dollar a man owns. Who controls household spending, though? Talk about how the money's made in America. How is it being spent? So it's. So it's primarily spent by women, as you've noted. But then the money where the profits being generated, it's being generated by women. Would you rather be the people that are spending and deciding on what the money's being spent on, or would you rather be the person that's just working? Well, CEOs and board members aren't working there. They own the shares. They're making the profit. When you own it, much profit is making. You would. Yeah, you would Much. In a capitalist system, by definition, you would much rather be making the profit than. Than spending. I would much rather be spending your money than having to work for your money. Just so we are totally clear here, I would much rather spend your money than have to go out and earn your money. Well, you're talking about wage laborers in terms of working, but in terms of. No, I'm talking about spending power. Right, yeah, well, sure, but that matters. If 85 cents of every dollar, how that's being spent is being determined by women. That's power. We can't say spending power is not power. Why do you think that is the case? It's because women are often relegated to the role of doing grocery shopping, et cetera. Because for millennia now, or from millennia up until now, women were unable to enter the workforce and have economic political freedom. So let's get into the reasons. Because you brought up something that men are the people that are at the top of these companies, these Fortune 500 companies. And political power. You're absolutely right. Why is that? It's primarily because the women haven't broken the ceiling quite yet. In terms of meeting men in terms of. In terms of parity with these sort of powers. But what we've seen with the explosion of feminism is that women have actually begun to enter these companies, have risen into both political and economic positions of power. But that continues to grow year by year, which shows that these social pressures are actually breaking apart as soon as feminism comes into play. What I would say what that shows you is that women and men have different interests. And I think this gets into what I was saying, that just because you see a disparity does not mean that it's not just a disparity in what our interests are. That's what's being represented. I don't know why there has been this idea that women should want to aspire to work 80 hours a week in order to be on par with men. Do you think that interests are innate, or do you think. I think the interests are innate. So why is it then that, for example, in the 1980s, only a quarter of college graduates were women, where now majority of college graduates are women. That shows that because of the way that social pressures have actually changed, women's interests are actually now changing too. A majority, I think, or at least half of law school graduates are now women. It used to be the case, for example, a few hundred years ago that a lot of primary philosophers like Immanuel Kant, Hegel, didn't even believe women could be reasonable. Now here you are today doing a debate with me where we're using logic and reason to get to these posts. Absolutely. And nobody here would dismiss the claim that you can't be rational or logical or be, for example, a great lawyer because you're a woman. Right. So I totally agree with you that women, but I think they have actually entered into the workforce, I mean, entered into college, under this external pressure of feeling that if you don't go to college, you're going to be a failure. So you admit that pressures are a part of the way interests work. Yes, but we're disagreeing on where the pressure is coming from. Like, I think that now the pressure is that if a woman doesn't enter the force, there's no longer this idea that, okay, we're gonna come together as a family. Whereas there was this reality that there was this understanding that you would have a partner. People were getting married when they were 18, 19 years old, our grandparents. Now it's because of feminism. And I'm saying this is actually. This is the downside of feminism. Women no longer have that sense. They think that if they have to be Pressured to go take out a loan to go to college, and then you have the pressure to get well. They have the same pressures as men because women no longer rely on for an income. Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please. I did like our conversation. Might have to come back to you. Hi, Cohen. I'm Paris. Very nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. So can I explain to you why I believe we live in a patriarchy and why I. I believe we live in a society as preferential to men? So I'm gonna use the example of male violence? There's a lot of places I can look, but we're gonna talk about that. 81% of women have been sexually assaulted. 1 in 6 have been raped. 1 in 4 women are the victims of domestic violence. 98% of perpetrators of rape and sexual assault are men. 95% of perpetrators of domestic violence are men. Actually, in regards to human trafficking, 70% of human trafficking victims are women. So we're seeing a very clear issue of men being violent towards women. And then when we look at the way that our government handles that, one out of three rapes go reported, and then out of the ones that Go reported, 7% end in jail time. So if we're looking at that and we're looking at the fact that our government doesn't really get that worried about male violence. Well, so what I would say is going back to biological differences, men are naturally inclined more towards aggression than women are. So I am not shocked by you telling me, even if you looked at, like I said, male on male crime, you would see that there are more instances of men killing other men than there are are instances of women killing other women. And that, I think, actually speaks to our biological differences, which is actually at the root of everything that I believe about feminism being a lie, is because they're trying to program people to believe that men and women are the same. Now, I don't think that pointing to the fact that men are more aggressive than women, which is a point that you and I 1000% agree on, whether or not that manifests in the very wrong way of men harming other men, which I think they do more probably than they are beating women. Men on male. On male violence. That manifestation doesn't change the fact that men and women are just biologically hardwired different. I think it's actually proof of that. I don't think it has anything to do with the fact of power dynamics in this country, because to the contrary, if you look at prison rates and talking about how disparities don't mean anything. The majority of overwhelming people that are in prison are male. Right. There's a reason for that. So when it manifests in a good way that male aggression is the reason why we have men defending us, men that are willing to go to war and die for our nation. So aggression being an aspect of masculinity has nothing to do with the conversation of whether or not feminism is harming women today? Yeah. I mean, I agree with you that women are biologically different than men are. Yes. But I don't. What I want you to connect it to is, I guess, power. Because what I'm talking about when I say that we're existing under a matriarchy is that I believe that the social pressures, politically and socially that are coming and even within our music, if we talk about Hollywood, Hollywood, it's very much has become just because, like, who was on the top music charts or whatever are women. Okay. How many women have paid maternity leave? That's not. Like, how are things panning out in the family courts? Why are abusive men having access to their children? Like, why are women making less than men? I mean, none of that means anything to me. So that gap, obviously, I'm sure you've recognized the gender gap has been debunked so many times, it's almost foolish to debunk it again. Well, you could say, yeah, that most women will go into jobs where they're making less. But then it's. It does answer the question of why do we not value women's labor? That's not valuing women's labor. It's just a reality that if you are going to be a person that aspires to become a brain surgeon, you are going to make more money than a person that aspires to do something that's, you know, like, in the household. Can we go back to the Bill Bines question? Yes. Why does our country not persecute men? Then who are rapists? Well, the majority of people who are in prison are men, so they. I don't know what you mean. That we don't prosecute men that are rapists. We even prosecute people. 7% go to jail. Only 7% go to jail. I don't know what that has to do with the question of whether or not we're living in a matriarchy or a patriarchy. If it's preferential to men. You're saying that they only like to arrest men when they kill someone. But our government is awarding men for raping women. I Don't understand what you're doing. They don't care. Rape is effectively legal. You can literally rape a woman and you have a very low likelihood of actually going to jail. Jail, as a man. Rape is effectively legal. It's effectively legal. How many men are actually going. I actually agree with you that in terms of sex crimes, and I don't know how you're peeling out women because I would even. And again, this is nothing to do with our argument today, but I would even say that people are not being prosecuted hard enough when we're dealing with crimes against children, period. Talking about sexual crimes not being prosecuted in this country is a whole other conversation. And you will not get a disagreement with me. But I think that it's wrong to say that it's somehow attached to being a woman when you know, there are so many children that are going through the exact same thing. I mean, the light sentences that are tossed out for pedophiles. It's completely ridiculous. All right, guys, pause. But I don't think it has anything to do with the conversation that we're having right now. But I agree with that. It has everything to do with it. And you're separating it to make your take time. Take a turn to your seat. Hi, Adam. Nice to meet you. So your claim is just to be clear, that we live in a matriarchy. Right. So I think even you'd agree that on a global level, that's obviously ridiculous when there are countries where people literally are honor killed for, like Instagram posts. But even if we're talking about gender, just the U.S. right. We don't have paid maternity leave. Abortion is illegal in over a dozen different states. And as someone earlier was mentioning, women are overwhelmingly the victims of sexual violence and domestic abuse. So that doesn't seem like a very well designed matriarchy where women are victims or, you know, lacking power in so many different realms of society on like a structural level. I just do not think that women are lacking power on a structural level because they can't. Which they can, by the way, abort their children. Is that like one of your components is that there's many states where abortion is illegal. Do you dispute that? I am going to dispute that having a child is somehow something that restricts women in any capacity. Like you're saying, what about the ability to decide what you do with your own body? I don't believe that it's. I don't believe that murder is something that you should be allowed to. Sure. And murder is illegal. It's actually what you're doing to somebody else's body. So I'm pro life, so that. So the argument that, well, women will only be free if they're able to, you know, kill off their own offspring, to me is a really extremely off colored. Yeah, well, I guess if you frame it that way, everyone kind of has to agree with you. But when we're talking about abortion, when 99% take place in the first few weeks, when, you know, there's no thalamus, there's no cortex, there's no capacity for consciousness in the fetus that's developing, saying that that fetus that has no capacity to be conscious or wear anything else should have the same rights, same bodily autonomy as a woman. That is an obvious. I mean, you're making my point for me that you're actually making the point that people who are, you know, born with tremendous disability should just be killed because of cognitive functions and ability. I don't remember saying that. When did I say that? The best argument, which again, this is sidetracked. You're saying that. Let's get back on track. What I'm saying that if you're saying. No, I am saying that if you're saying that it's cognitive ability and at what's the ability to be conscious. And just so we're clear, disabled people are conscious, they're aware. Okay? So the best argument that it is a life is the fact that you have to kill it. You have to have a procedure to kill it, right? So you have to intervene human cells in it. But it's not called it a developing life. If you have to go into your body and murder it, then it's disputing that there's living human cells in a future again. So we can just tack that off because we just have a fundamen disagreement on what paid maternity leave. People have been talking a lot about whether you have to be a mother, you have to work. A lot of women have to pick one or the other. Because in many cases, if you want to have a child, first of all, there's a big gap in your resume. So getting a job after that might be super difficult. And then secondly, even in the process of having that child, being pregnant, especially in the third trimester, and then raising the child where the vast majority of the burden typically is on the mother, the workplace and our system of our economy is not tailored to make that easy for them. I actually totally agree with you. And this gets me in maternity leave. You agree? I don't know. Actually, I'm agreeing with you. That this pressure that you're describing exists for women. And I'm saying that it exists for women because of the feminists that came before who argued for women to enter the workplace. So what you're saying is the solution didn't work and it actually produced more problems and now we have more problems and we need more governance to be able to tackle these problems. So you're like a system that's forcing women to make certain decisions. I just wouldn't call that feminism. It's forcing women to make. Women should have the option to choose. Do I want to be a stay at home mom? Do I want to work? Do I have some mix of both? That's the entire point here. But you are also making an argument that if you are a woman who does run a business and does have employees, that they should be forced to pay them maternity leave. Sure. Yeah. Okay. So under. Let me. That's like saying taxes are forced. Yeah. There's certain things the government does to regulate our economy to ensure equality and justice and better outcomes. But just so you know, when you do that like to a small business owner, developed country does, what you are arguing for is supporting big corporations and taking out the little guys. Because I'm arguing for supporting people that want to be mothers and also work at the same time. Right. I, under the mechanism we do that with, it can be subsidies, taxes. Can't just keep this. You can't say that we can't have the economic. We can't get down to the economics of what it actually implies. Right. I have an economics degree and I can tell you if there's a small business that can't afford to pay maternity leave, government might probably subsidize them and help cover the costs. Where is the government getting money from? This is like, this is tax revenue. I mean. Right, exactly. So from us. So from us. Just to be clear, from us. And this is the thing that gets me about all of these debates. The magic solution that everybody has is that, well, we just need to tax it. If you're. The developed country has paid you. But it's not magic as in like the money is coming from these magical countries. The money is coming from you, it's coming from us. So you're sitting here. Yes, that's how taxes work. Yes, we should be raising taxes. Okay. And this is the entire, this is the entire problem is that the government is already taxing homes times two and people are already struggling with what's being taken out of their taxes. Are you taxing capital gains properly or Corporate profits properly. So I'm hoping that there's a reason that we should be taxing more here. There. It's an efficient point. Don't you guys want, like, bring in more revenue to help women be mothers? What I'm saying is that you are just creating a cyclical argument. You're basically saying that women want to be able to have it all. Women cannot have it all because the government choice to do what they like. Okay, but you're saying women should be have the choice to have it all. Okay, so you're saying it's a really interesting way of putting like, what you're. Do you have it all right now where you're working and you're also a mother? Is that having it all? I'm saying that it's not possible for women. It is impossible. What do you have? And that's one of the things that whatever that is, is what I would want other women to have as well, which is the flexibility to work a job and also raise kids if they'd like. No, but that. But that's exactly. You guys keep arguing that what people want is more flexibility. So you're acknowledging that right now, under with feminism on fire. We are agreeing. Women are going into the workforce. Like, I'm just kind of using a hyperbolic expression. Like feminism is everywhere. We are arguing that women need to have more opportunities, women need to have more rights. They've taken that now. You have. The majority of people that are graduating with college degrees are, in fact, women. Men are committing suicide at a higher rate than women. We're looking around the world. Feminism also would push for, like, increased awareness of men's mental health. That's fine. Great. You love feminism. That's great. We already know that. We get it. Most Americans agree with me, by the way. Women should have paid maternity rights. If you go issue by issue and buy values, they might not associate with the term feminism because people like you have made it toxic, but the actual values of undergird feminism, you will move the goalposts. And then when they begin taxing so that we can account for paid maternity leave for three months, which basically means a small business owner has to not have an employee while having to pay months and months and months. Like, the person's not there. They're not actually a small business doesn't have the revenue to cover paid maternity leave. The government would probably subsidize them to make up the cost. No, I actually think that the way things were made more sense where we had an environment where you could afford to take care of children with just one person bringing in income in the house. Is that possible in the current environment? You can obviously, when things are going to get way more expensive with these tariffs as well, like, it's not going to be easy to afford anything in the coming years. Is it going to happen overnight? No. But I think we need to be realistic about the fact that the first thing didn't work. Right. The entire thing. What is the first thing? The first thing was women entering the workforce is going to make everybody happier and richer. That was the best thing. The idea is that women having the choice to enter the workforce is better than them being forced to not do that. Okay, that's. That's the argument. Okay, that actually is not the argument at all. The argument was that women would become. And I'm talking about what the feminists got ahead of and this debate, like this imaginary Twitter feminist. But, like, right now you're talking to me, and that's not the argument. I'm not actually debating an imaginary Twitter feminist. I'm speaking to you. And I have no idea why you're becoming increasingly more rude when I'm just rebutting your points that you're making. No, you're not responding to my point. I am responding to your point. I'm saying that you're creating a cyclical argument where you keep saying that the thing that you just did that you said was going to be enough, what we actually need is for women just enter the workforce. Oh, women are in the workforce and actually not enough. I'm saying we don't have enough because we don't have enough. And I'm telling you that you're also not going to have enough because you're going to then get be complaining when you get that paid maternity leave. I'm not going to get maternity leave. Okay, well, they are arguing for family paid leave, so that's even better. Yeah. Okay, so you. You might get. Do you think fathers should also be around to help raise children? I think. Who's going to work if everybody goes home every time a child is born? 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Grab yours@ollie.com these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. We'll have a male partner. Nice talking to you as well. My final claim is that feminism has made things easier for men. Hi. Hi. I'm Jenny. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. You said that feminism is easier for men or is it's made things, I think, easier for anxiety for men. Yeah. Now men don't have to commit and they're being offered sex from women for free. So they have to actually effectively do less and be motivated less. Because feminism has kind of insisted on this culture of sex and hooking up. And I think that that has been a net negative for women. On good faith. I just want to say I think you're approaching this with like the best interest for women. Like you think that is negative for women and harmful. And I think in some aspects we can agree to that. I do think that there are some aspects of sex work or onlyfans or whatnot that maybe men are definitely the huge consumers of. But if we are so concerned with women putting that out for free, it's not. It's charged. Right. They're making money off of it. Then why are we not putting the onus more on men for being these. The one that is in control of that demand. Right. So we can take away the supply or condemn it all we want, but if there's no onus on men to be the consumers of said products, then wouldn't you think that would solve the issue that you're bringing up? Yeah, I actually agree with you on that and I really get to that. I want to be very clear when I say that I'm anti feminist, this does not mean that I do not also criticize men. I think that's something that people get very wrong. Okay. 1,000% agree. I believe the problem was seeded by the feminist movement. I think the sex revolution and telling women, I mean, literally these people were protesting. They didn't have their shirts on. And this used to Be just your grandparents couldn't even imagine this, like, women walking down the street and having their boobs out and their butts out on Instagram. And it created an environment where men then had to work harder for a woman's affection for a woman to take her clothes off. Sex education in the classroom, there's this huge myth that people were just doing it. Like, you know, oh, we might as well teach them, because the children are just doing it. Actually, before they introduced sex education, the majority of high school graduates were graduating with their virginity intact. And then within 10 years of sex education, we saw a reversal. So I'm saying feminism actually seeded the problem, and now the problem is bad. And it's also bad for men. It's harmful for men to be constantly exposed to pornography and soft pornography. And I think it actually, in many ways, emasculated. But I would say they are the main social benefactors of that culture because, well, first and foremost, as we're talking about women who have to kind of pick one or the other or try to manage both. And can we have it all? Like, no, you can't have it all. On a day where I really feel like I gave a little bit more to my career, I ache because I go, okay, but, like, now I feel like I gave. Didn't give the same amount to my children. And it's a constant push and pull, and it never feels enough. It really doesn't feel enough. So to a degree, I think that feminism does benefit men. I think that it allows men to be more emotionally intelligent, allows them to understand what that looks like and also be able to connect with other people. Right. But at the same time, there's so much work that feminism has done for women that to say that it benefits men more, I don't think is an accurate statement. For example, Title IX has made it very possible for women to go to college 600% more so. Right. And I think that that is a huge benefit that we can credit to the feminist movement, though. I understand your point, though, of trying to say that, like, sex work is harmful for women and more beneficial for men because they're benefiting from it the most. But at the same time, if you think they're also suffering from it, does that not contradict your point? Yeah. So I disagree on the fact that. And we do agree that more women are going to college. More, actually more women than men. Men are graduating with college degrees. And despite that, people are saying that we still live under a patriarchy. Women are free to start their own companies. Women are free to pay women whatever they want to pay. Women could hire, and in some cases do hire all women. And so I don't really understand, which wasn't your argument, to be fair, the idea that even with all of that freedom, women are still not able to achieve what men are able to achieve. I think college education actually has increased women's stress. And I'm talking about in terms of terms of how expensive it is. And I know you're gonna then say, well, the solution to that is we have to then move the goalpost. And I'm guessing here, no, I mean, but, like, college should be free. Everything should be free. He thinks, well, I think we just need more free stuff. And obviously, nothing's free. We're talking. We're just gonna tax us. If I could interject, I think the issue that we keep coming back to is that you believe that women will be happiest in the home where they don't have to work. And I think most people in general probably wouldn't, like, wanna work anyways. But I think the main issue that we keep avoiding is that this is not an issue created by feminism. This is an issue created by capitalism. Yeah, so I've heard this argument that it's an issue created by capitalism. But you don't agree. You think feminism is the greater issue than the system that now the issue spend more money to live? Well, we have to spend more money to live, I think, in large part because feminists got duped by the government. And I think we just keep further enslaving ourselves to the government. I'm not a person who believes in big government and yet find that feminists are constantly like, well, we can deal with the college issue. We just need more government. We can deal with the, you know, needing to have more benefits. We just need more government. So it's like, okay, let's just tax every household 100%. And I'm trying to prevent that. And I'm saying that there was a time in America, and what's aspirational for me is I was, you know, raised in part by my grandparents. They were very happy. They were just. I lived in that environment of what that looked like. And I think for many of people who didn't grow up, feminism has taught us, and I say this as someone who had to take Feminism 101 courses when I was in college, that it was like this nightmare, and people weren't happy and people were suffering and women were just. People were suffering, people were being forced and that there weren't Actually, these things that just marriages that worked, that the women actually weren't disempowered by being the CEOs of their household. Well, allowing women to have more choice and freedom and agency to leave. Sorry, you've been voted out by the majority. I did enjoy this conversation. Very respectful. Hi, Ms. Owens. I loved that entrance. How are you? Nice to meet you. It's Audrey. Yes, nice to meet you. Well, I was thinking that a lot of your claims are very contradictory. Saying that we live in a matriarchy, that men benefit from feminism more. I would like to understand why, again, you think that men benefit from feminism more. Basically because men don't have to commit to women. Men are still able to do what they're doing and they are allowed to basically step away from all of the responsibilities of what it really meant to be a man and lead a household. And that's in large part, I think, due to the sexual revolution. I mean, is it really bad that we don't have to give men the chase? Don't they have gratification from chasing us? Like it's a hunter versus prey situation to me. So I feel like a lot of relationships, especially back then, were based on trying to get to home run, like very fast. And now that we have the freedom to not commit and not tie ourselves to one man for the rest of our life, I just don't necessarily think that's bad. I just don't think the revolution has decreased our value. We're not chewed gum. We're people who value connection. And sex doesn't always have to to have this deep meaning. It is just connection and intimacy between two people who trust each other. And why do we have to deny women that gratification? Like men, you say that are wired to want that. Why not women? Why? Well, again, I go back to just our basic biological differences. There was a really interesting book that was done by a biophysicist he, I think recently passed away, named Edward O. Wilson, where he just sort of breaks down the biological arguments. Basically, he looks in the wild to see the behavior of animals. His thesis is just that you can never. You basically can never beat your own biology. And then he kind of compares it to what we see here as just humans and our social interactions and things that have been abundantly clear. When you look at every civilization over time, whether it's from, you know, 400 B.C. to LA today, what are these habits that you can see that never go away? And people coming together and starting families is one of these things because we are biologically wired to find a family, to settle down and to have children. And I think when you have women that are going out and they're giving all of the goods up for free. The goods, the goods, the goods. I'm not going to say. I'm not going to buy the goods up for free. Men. The goods for free from men. And that we are very. Actually very happy with that. And there's connections. We're not sockeye salmon. We're not made to breed and have families and then die. You are welcome to do that. I'm just saying that when it comes time for you to find a partner, you may find yourself in a circumstance where men don't value you as high because men. Men like, like you spoke to. Men like to compete. They like to feel like they've won something. I'd like to deprive men of that because they don't need to have that. That's actually, like. That's actually. But you did bring up. You did bring up. Yeah, yeah. And that's. That's why you say that men are, you know, essentially predatory, and we have the goods that we have to meet, like, keep from them. Oh, I didn't mean the goods in a bad way, but that's such an objectifying way. The goods. What? The grocery goods. Honestly, I think. I think that that's just kind of. You don't have value colloquial songs today. I think they have value apart from how many people we sleep with. How many, like you also devalue education for women. And I think that's very interesting because you're also a very educated. And in a lot of ways, this is just like an observation. You devalue yourself a lot. I definitely do not feel like I'm devaluing myself. Make him a sandwich. Yeah. Yes. Which is the title of my book. Yes. Feed your men and everything. Feed the people that you love. Because family isn't defined just by your partner or your kids. Family is community. And you should care about your community and understanding the that. I just don't think you really care about the community that much when you're pushing this rhetoric of devaluing women so much to stay in the kitchen, stay within the homes, and also saying that they're wasting money on college when education is very important. There's a lot of female scientists. Pause. You've been voted out. Say sorry. Sorry. You've been voted out. Hello. Hi. How are you? What's your name? I'm Zola Stone. Very nice to meet you. Zoh, you're very. Thank you. So you keep talking about OnlyFans and Kim Kardashian and. Well, I do only fans and I'm a stripper as well. So you're in the sex industry? Well, I'm mainly a recording artist, but I do that to fund the music. But, you know, you're saying basically that we kind of, like, devalue ourselves, but at the same time, I'm celibate. I still consider myself a woman of God. And so, you know, not all of us are just out there just, oh, hey, showing the goods, you know, like, we do respect our bodies still. So I don't like that you kind of putting us all in one box because of that. Yeah. So we have to. In order to have debates, we have to make generalizations. Of course, there can be some exceptions to the rule, but what I'm trying to understand is how can you say that you're not, you know, giving up your body if you are a struggle? Well. Cause I said I'm celibate. I still wanna get married. I still wanna have kids. And for some of us, it's hard for us to have kids. And I've also dealt with sexual abuse since a child, you know, so I wasn't doing any sexual work as a child, you know, and still went through things like that. So. So I first wanna say, perfectly sympathetic to everything you're saying. Especially if you come from an environment where you've lived through something when you're a kid, it makes it infinitely harder. And it's actually a reason why so many people turn to sex work because they don't have that structure at home that gives them, I think, other options. But would you agree with me that if you could, like, that wouldn't help. I went to college for music production. For music production, I went to LA recording school. Okay, so did you decide to be a stripper because of economic restraint or because of freedom? For freedom. You know, we want the choice to do whatever we want with our bodies. Okay. You know, I don't think it matters if you do want to dress how you want to dress. That doesn't mean, oh, you can, you know, sexually abuse or sexually harass. Do you think the men that are being brought into the strip clubs to watch you, do you think that they're walking away and going, I did that because that woman was empowered to take off her clothes. Or do you think that they're actually devaluing women? No, I get it. I used to be that hypocrite. You know, I said things that I said I would never do anything like that, you know? You know, like, I totally get that. But some people just want to go to the club and have a good time. Yeah. I think most of the people who are making those decisions are doing it because they have. They're dealing with addictions themselves. I think you're worth more than taking your clothes off. I think that if you wanted to have a career in music, you wouldn't have to take your clothes off to do that. And I think that it's sad that you've been. Every story is different. Every story is different. But I do think that we can make a generalization. I was at that point where I was going to college. I was working three jobs. I used to be a. So you just don't know the situations. You don't know how life is going to turn out. It's going to be ups and downs. But, no, I didn't want to do it. But in my situation and things that I went through, it's something that just. But I'm actually really glad that you said, no, I didn't want to do it. And you were put in a situation where you had to do it, because I think that's really honest. And I think the problem that I find with feminism is that it's tremendously honest. It's a dishonest movement. All right, guys, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Thank you. I'm not judging. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, Katherine. Candice, you brought up a book about that we are going to biology, and that biology is what we should organize society on, based on, like, what skills men are good at. I can restate what I said, that there is a book, and the argument that's being made is that you can't override, you can't outthink your biology is the easiest way to say it's so. Feminism, I would say, is a movement where they are trying to outthink biology, meaning that all we have to do is this, this, this, this and that, and then magically, we're going to be transformed. And that desire within us to want to start a family is just going to, like, die, or we're going to be happier doing this thing. And I think the answer to that is no. Right. I would argue that our biology does not have as much of an effect on the things that we choose to do with our careers, with our life choices, as you think it does. Our closest ancestors are chimps and bonobos. Bonobos are matriarchal chimps are patriarchal and our previous societies have run egalitarian for millennia. It's not been this inherent desire for men to rule a certain way and women to rule another way. It has been egalitarian, it's been patriarchal. Because there are things that go into effect, like your situation, your personality, that make you better at doing something than just your biology. I know many quiet, nerdy men that would not be good leaders and I know many strong women and vice versa, like it does not matter as your testosterone, the hormones you admit is not going to have as much of an effect as I think you think it does. I totally think it does. And so that's why let's getting back to college. Since I'm so assuming you support women going to college, can you explain why there is, when they can freely choose, why there is such a difference in the majors that women choose versus the majors that men choose when they get to college? Well, I think it's also important to note that things are changing and there's like many initiatives to get more women into stem, to get women into higher paying career fields. When women have been kept out of these fields for so long, it's slow and slow steady race to get them there. It's not that women are not choosing them, they're slowly learning that this is okay for them to choose. There's more women in stem, there's more lawyers, there's more women. Women are making up strides to those positions. So it's not like they're sedentary and they're staying in these humanities or arts fields. I don't think you're being honest. I think, you know, like if. Did you go to college? I mean, I'm in college. I think I know that women aren't. It's not because they're not pressured. It's because when quite literally they say, what are you interested? Women flock to certain things. They just do. We do. We as a whole do. It tends to be. And this is because we are biologically wired. And even when a child is born, when a woman, like a female child versus a male child, the girls start speaking faster and they speak more words. Just a fact, right? For the rest of their lives. Like my daughter started speaking. And this is not anecdotal, but this is, I'm giving you an anecdotal example of something that is a real fact. So there's just a biological proclivity there there that women like communication. And you see that followed all the way as an example into college. Women are drawn toward These careers that are compassionate, emotional and communicative, which is why you'll see women flooding journalism. That's why even when you see women that are finding success, they are typically in careers that are communicative and compassionate. Women that will say, I want to do psychology. I want to do children's psychology. And so even at the same time that women are saying that they're running away from their biology, so to speak, they are still exhibiting that they very much believe in these determined biological characteristics that I think are something that's just never going to go away. Right. But I would also bring up that the way that women are, young girls are given dolls, young boys are put in sports. These things that kids learn at a very early age are very impactful in what children like and pursue in the future. And it's not simply that I don't think there's a biological gene that women like fashion and men don't. That's why we do see men in fashion. That's why there's actually at the top of all these fashion houses, a lot of men are in successful positions in fashion. The way in which you teach children to explore creativity and to play in what we put women in, we put women in pink rooms and little girls in pink rooms and boys in blue rooms. That has an effect. So, and I'll tell you why I disagree. And I know because I had my children back to back, that there's a blur here. So I never had had to separate them and say, you play with this, you play with that. They were growing up with their toys. I mean, one year apart. My daughter and my son, they just are interested in different things. And this is one of the, I think, lies of feminism. And when you actually have children, there may be some exceptional child, but I am telling you, my boy's first word was car. He is obsessed with trucks. He's obsessed with cars. I did not do that. I do not like. I don't like having to answer his questions about cars. I don't like having to answer his questions about trucks, because my biological proclivities are not designed. I'm just not feeling passionate about engineering, wanting to know how everything works. You don't recognize that. And this is, I think, one of the worst harms of feminism, because I was a feminist when I was in college, or I at least thought I agreed with the movement because you don't have the family yet. So when they make these arguments that you're making, you think that that's real. You think, oh, well, it's just because you're not giving the child the Barbie doll, that they don't love Barbie dolls. And that's not a reality. We are just quite literally different. There are many. I'm so sorry. Sorry. Time is up. Candace will now choose a feminist to debate one more time on a claim of their choice. I am going to choose Jenny to have a further conversation with because I thought that it was a respectful dialogue and I want people to be able to learn from the differences and I think she is probably the best equipped person to get that done. Thank you. My claim is that I believe feminist feminism is wrongly interpreted as anti men when it benefits both men and women. It's a great claim. I like that claim. Thank you. Okay, so I think that in today's environment, when you look at the messaging that's coming out from self proclaimed feminists, it's very much an F men, men can't do anything, women can do bad all by themselves sort of colloquial messaging, which I think think is harmful to men and to women. I have seen examples of people that I truly do think are more old school who don't do that. But I think in 2025 we've landed on the side of this. It is, I think, rising to a level of just being anti men, which is not what I think it was supposed to be. Aspirationally. Okay. In response to that, I would just like to say I think that in all ideologies and beliefs there is a spectrum, right? And on either side, there's going to be a radical point of view. I do understand how it may come across as negative when women say things like, I hate all men or f men this, F men that. But I'm also, as a woman, not going to fault other women for having that perspective and fear because unfortunately, our greatest predator is men. Our greatest harm does come from men. And therefore, when women have experienced violence from men, when women have experienced oppression from men, I'm not going to fault them for feeling that way and expressing such. And I think the onus does rely more on men for acknowledging that these issues do exist. It is harming women. And unfortunately, a lot of men don't listen to women and they actually would rather listen to other men. While that may seem like negative messaging, if we can get past the idea of, oh, this feels like it's attacking my character, like I feel like feminism is attacking me as a man, then I think that we can have a much more productive discussion and move forward in making sure that this society is better for Everybody. And I do believe that feminism benefits men as well. I think that's also misunderstood and misinterpreted in that when we hear that, instantly, we turn off. We don't want to listen. Right. But when we look at historically, what feminism does, it's actually trying to bring women at an equal level to men, given the same opportunities and options as men, and also not receive the same judgment that men do for the same action. And so I believe that when men are exposed to more female role models, when men are exposed to more feminine or feminist leaning women, they actually have higher quality of life. They have deeper conversations that they can have with their loved ones. All the men that I know in my life are feminists, and it is because they are feminists that we all have a beautiful community and beautiful friendships. Yeah. So I would actually even expand it to say that not only is feminism hostile to men, but it's also also very hostile to women. And I think you saw a lot of example of that today where there seems to be a reaction when a woman says, children are beautiful. It's like, oh, my God, how dare you say that? Like, having a child? And it's like, why is there this instant reaction to people that are traditional? And you see that when we have a society which is really kind of being dominated by what I would call, like, this hyper sexual character, like, of the Kim Kardashian prototype of feminism weighed against the other extreme, which would be like, the Lena Dunham types who are coming out. Lena Dunham's much more. More the f. Men Forever. Kim Kardashian is kind of the. When I was saying, like, come get everything for free, you know, that sort of a model. And I think both of them reject tradition in a way that there's a little bit of hatred there for women who don't want to climb the ladder and work 45 hours a week for a small paycheck and who actually aspire to marriage. They think that there's something intrinsically backwards about that. They think that there's something wrong with women who are. Are wholesome and happy, and they instantly try to problematize that. And I'd say one of the greatest cultural examples of that today was like the feminist attack on Ballerina Farm, which just kind of came out of nowhere. It was so weird. We have an example of every feminist on the COVID of everything, and it's like, but no, this woman can't have 10 million followers. She's not allowed to have 10 million followers. We have to take her down and that to me, that to me is the greatest example of what modern feminism has become. Because they pretend it's about choice, but in reality they want every woman to enter the workforce and to pretend that they're happy in the workforce from a 9 to 5 job trying to compete with men. And I think if people are being honest, the overwhelming majority of women are doing that because of financial power, not because they're really happy. And that's why they're binge drinking on the weekends. And okay, I disagree with that. I think that feminism just gives women options. And if you want to be a stay at home wife and you want to be a trad wife, that's fine. Feminism is not, in my opinion. I think a lot of other people agree with me. Feminism is not the belief that you can't do those things. And we're trying to convince women that they have to work. I believe that feminism is, if you wanna work, go do that, go get that bag, you know. But if you don't and you wanna be a stay at home wife, then there shouldn't be consequences for doing that. And I think the whole ballerina farm discussion is kind of highlighting some of the consequences. We see a woman who wanted to be a ballerina, but gave up that passion and dream to be a mother. And I don't think that it's wrong to want both. I think that you can. I think there's value in being a mother. I think there's value in having a family. Right. I work with kids all the time as a swim teacher. I love kids, but at the same time, I don't want to have to choose between kids and my career path. She can't choose. And that's another thing is they just keep rejecting her answering this question a thousand times. Of course, when you're young and before you have kids, the things that I wanted to do aspirationally has radically transformed from now that I'm married, it suddenly everything came into focus and really I understand that family is what it's all about. It's like you have your first kid and you change entirely, your focus changes. And I do find exactly what you're saying is that even when she herself says, this is what I wanted, I was not forced to give up. You know, that's what I wanted when it was just me in my life and I went to Juilliard and I did what I wanted to do and I danced as a ballerina, and then my husband moved to support me as a ballerina. And then I got pregnant. And when you have a child, your entire world changes instantly in a moment. And it's hard to describe that to someone who doesn't have a child yet, because when I was there, I didn't understand it either. So I actually would have agreed more with you. Until that moment happens, you don't get it. And so what I'm saying is that to see people constantly try to problematize her life when she's like, I have eight kids now. It's like, and not only do I love kids, I have eight of them and I'm cooking and I'm going to school and I'm bringing them with me to. And the attacks on the tradwife culture, it just shows you that there is fundamentally a hatred for tradition. And I think that hatred is being bred into women. And ultimately when you find Those women at 50 who have chased their careers, it has been my experience, and they don't have family, that they suffer from tremendous unhappiness if they've missed that window of opportunity to start a family. I mean, I would like to disagree with that point that, that feminism is hating on the tradwife life. I think there is a misrepresentation of that life that's being fed to people. For example, people like Nara Smith and Ballerina Farm are. They are social media content creators. That is their job, right? So it's not that they're just a stay at home mom. Content creation itself, as I'm sure you're aware, is also a job. Right? So they are not actually fully trad wives. They also are working and on top of of that, they are marketing this lifestyle that is not attainable by everybody. It's not feasible. And I think you agree with this too. To be spending eight hours cooking like, I don't know, chocolate chip cookies from scratch where you've harvested the cocoa yourself. You know what I mean? And it's not feasible in our current economic system. Right. And maybe that's what people want and that's great. And I don't think feminism is the one that's telling you you shouldn't want this. I disagree with that strongly. I think feminism is telling you that if you want to pursue, that's great, that's for you. I've never met a feminist that didn't find a problem with the trad wives. And that's my point, is that it's this illusion. Well, you're meeting one now, I think. I don't think, no, because as soon as I said something traditional, everyone rejected. I said, you will get more Purpose and joy from raising a. You get joy from raising a child. And everyone acted like when I said, you get joy from raising a child. Like, I had stabbed them in the chest. Like, guys, it's hard. Shouldn't we just, like, understand that children are like. Like, it's a good, inspired children. I don't think any of us here hate kids. I think the point is it's not about, oh, I've mentioned something traditional, and this is the reaction that I'm getting from it. It's that it's almost like you're making an assumption that this applies to everybody. I am making a generalization, and I am. And that's what people are reacting to. The majority of women did not invest time to start a family. Women would be miserable. And I think that recognizing that when women start to, like, the biological clock is real, and women start to recognize that they spend so much time trying to climb a ladder and they maybe don't find a partner. And it's harder to find a partner now because, as I said, we have devalued ourselves by giving up sex so freely. I do see that there is an increase in those types of women who are relying on drugs to make them happy, whether they're right. But not everybody wants marriage, and not everybody wants relationships. I think it's overwhelming. Women do want the safety of a relationship and a happy home. And I think that feminism lies to you and tells you that you don't until it's too late. And that is what I do a lot of work trying to get women to understand. Yeah, no, and I understand that you're trying. I'm sorry. That's time. I do apologize. You have people who are coming because they want to create a social media moment. And these are always. I've done so many events, the most frustrating things because nobody's learning. And I also think it's something that women that are young need to come to terms with, or they're gonna end up on the other side and be miserable and be popping pills like a lot of women who bought into the illusion of feminism did. It is important to interrupt conservatives, specifically conservatives like Candace, because once you do that, their policies will show themselves. I think that Candace herself is a great example that you can do both. And when you have a society and a culture that encourages women to do what they want, how they want, in a way that is safe and healthy, you will see that women can do it all. As she said, don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever you get your podcasts. So that you don't miss an episode. And if you want to watch the video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.