Charlie Kirk vs 20 Liberal College Students

Summary

Podcast Summary: Surrounded – Episode: Charlie Kirk vs. 20 Liberal College Students Release Date: July 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Surrounded, hosted by Jubilee Media, founder of Turning Point USA, Charlie Kirk engages in an intense debate with 20 liberal college students. The show's unique format places one courageous individual against a group holding opposing views, fostering raw and unfiltered conversations that challenge prevailing assumptions. This episode tackles contentious issues such as abortion, the value of a college education, transgender identity, affirmative action, and DEI (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion) initiatives.

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1. Abortion: Moral and Legal Implications

Timestamp: 00:00 – 04:20

The debate kicks off with Charlie Kirk asserting, "Abortion is murder and should be illegal" (00:00). He meticulously defines abortion as "the forcible ending of the viability of a being in utero" and murder as "the intentional Taking of life" (02:04).

Juliana, one of the students, counters by emphasizing her Catholic beliefs, stating, "I don't believe in telling people what to do with their bodies. That's not up to me and it's not up to us as well as Christians to judge" (02:32). She differentiates between a fetus and a living, breathing being, arguing that the fetus lacks full moral worth until viability (03:08).

Kirk challenges this by questioning the moral worth of a six-week fetus compared to an elderly person with dementia, urging, "Why is it that the six-week baby is of less moral worth?" (04:00). The discussion delves deep into the scientific viability of a fetus and the ethical considerations surrounding abortion, with both sides presenting strong, ideologically driven arguments.

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2. College Education: Scam or Valuable Investment?

Timestamp: 23:08 – 40:35

Charlie Kirk boldly declares, "My next claim is that college is a scam" (23:08). He defines a scam as an institution where "a majority of people... are not getting their money's worth, their time's worth" (23:20). Kirk argues that while majors like medicine and law are valuable, the majority of students pursue degrees in "soft social sciences, communications, or the humanities," which don't directly translate to high-paying jobs (26:12).

Maddox and other students defend the value of college by highlighting personal benefits, such as internships and skill development. Juliana points out, "If you make abortion illegal, it doesn't actually decrease the amount of abortions" (12:27), drawing a parallel to how making college inaccessible might not reduce attendance but rather push students into debt or unsuitable career paths.

Kirk cites statistics showing that "11 million jobs open that don't require a college degree" (32:20), advocating for apprenticeships in trades like plumbing and electrical work as viable alternatives. The students counter by emphasizing the long-term earning potential of degrees versus trades, noting that "86% of people with a degree get paid more than people with just a high school diploma" (32:29).

The debate underscores a fundamental divide in perceptions of higher education's return on investment, with Kirk pushing for skepticism about traditional college paths and the students defending its multifaceted benefits.

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3. Transgender Identity: Defining Womanhood

Timestamp: 42:15 – 61:45

Kirk presents a contentious stance: "Trans women are not women" (42:15). He defines a woman as "an adult female, XX chromosomes" (42:31), insisting on biological determinants. Sam and other students advocate for a more inclusive definition, asserting, "I think a woman is somebody who identifies as a woman" (42:34) and highlighting the complexity of gender as a social construct.

Juliana adds, "Women are so much more than that. They come in a variety of shapes, sizes, colors," emphasizing personal identity over biological markers (43:58). Kirk challenges the validity of self-identification, arguing that it leads to arbitrary classifications, akin to "saying a giraffe is a thing that looks like a giraffe" (43:32).

The conversation extends to the implications in sports and societal recognition, with Kirk asserting that natural biological differences confer certain physical advantages, while the students argue for the recognition of gender identity irrespective of physiology. The dialogue reflects the broader societal debate on gender, identity, and the balance between biological determinism and personal identity.

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4. Affirmative Action and DEI in Government

Timestamp: 83:02 – 86:43

Juliana introduces the topic of affirmative action, stating, "I firmly believe that affirmative action is constitutional and is a right that certain American citizens deserve" (83:02). Kirk responds by referencing the 14th Amendment, arguing that affirmative action undermines the principle of "equal protection" by providing "extra boost based on their skin color or their racial background" (83:42).

The discussion evolves into an examination of historical and contemporary racial inequalities, with Juliana highlighting the enduring impact of slavery and redlining on Black Americans. Kirk counters by analyzing current crime statistics, asserting that "blacks commit more crimes than whites" and attributing disparities to cultural factors rather than systemic oppression (88:35).

Juliana rebuts by pointing out the disproportionate incarceration rates of Black Americans and the socio-economic barriers established by discriminatory policies. The debate highlights the complex interplay between legislation, historical injustices, and present-day socio-economic outcomes, with both sides advocating for differing solutions to racial inequality.

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5. DEI Initiatives and Political Appointments

Timestamp: 62:55 – 81:53

Charlie Kirk contends that Vice President Kamala Harris is a DEI (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion) candidate, asserting that her selection was based on fulfilling racial and gender diversity criteria rather than merit alone: "She was chosen because she happened to fit some boxes" (63:37). Mason and other students challenge this by defending Harris's qualifications and accomplishments, arguing that her legal and political career merits her position independently of her identity.

The debate extends to the structure of the Senate, with Kirk labeling it a DEI construct aimed at giving disproportionate representation to less populated states, thereby skewing political power. Mason counters by explaining the historical rationale behind federalism and state representation, refuting the notion that the Senate was designed as a DEI mechanism (78:53).

Juliana and other students support DEI initiatives as essential for inclusive governance, while Kirk remains skeptical, viewing them as preferential treatments that undermine meritocratic principles. This segment underscores the ongoing contention over affirmative action and DEI policies in political appointments and legislative structures.

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Conclusion

This Surrounded episode presents a high-stakes clash of ideologies, with Charlie Kirk advocating for conservative viewpoints on abortion, higher education, transgender identity, and DEI initiatives, while the liberal college students counter with progressive arguments emphasizing personal identity, the multifaceted value of education, and systemic approaches to social inequalities. The debates are marked by passionate exchanges, philosophical disagreements, and differing interpretations of data and societal trends.

Notable Quotes:

• Charlie Kirk (02:04): "Abortion is murder and should be illegal."
• Juliana (02:32): "I don't believe in telling people what to do with their bodies."
• Charlie Kirk (23:08): "College is a scam."
• Sam (42:34): "I think a woman is somebody who identifies as a woman."
• Charlіe Kirk (63:37): "She was chosen because she happened to fit some boxes."

This episode exemplifies the show's mission to challenge assumptions and spark meaningful conversations, providing listeners with diverse perspectives on some of today's most divisive issues.

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For more episodes of Surrounded, subscribe on your preferred podcast platform and join a community built on curiosity, empathy, and conversations that matter.

Transcript

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you think men can give birth? I think that. Yes or no question. I think that a person who is assigned male at birth, I don't think they can assign male at birth. So people are not male at birth. I think that a person. See your evidence that college is a scam, my friend.

[Mason]

So what do you say? In some cases, women with IUDs are murderous?

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course not. They're not murderers.

[Mason]

So what's the difference between an IUD killing a conceived zygote and like a.

[Charlie Kirk]

Mother going to Planned Parenthood and killing.

[Mason]

The fetus in her womb?

[Charlie Kirk]

That was actually the best point somebody made.

[Juliana]

It's not about the cells. It's not about. No, no, no, I'm speaking. No, I'm speaking. No, I'm speaking. No, I'm speaking. No, I'm speaking. No, I'm speaking. No, I'.

[Charlie Kirk]

From Jubilee Media, this is.

[Mason]

Surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. Let's get into it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hello, everyone. I am Charlie Kirk, founder of Turning Point USA. And I am surrounded by 20 woke college kids. This episode is brought to you by Polestar. There's only one true way to experience the all electric luxury SUV Polestar 3, and that's to take a test drive. It can go from 0 to 60 in as little as 4.8 seconds with the dynamic handling of a sports car. But to truly understand how it commands the road, you need to be behind the wheel. Up to 350 miles of range. The 3D surround sound system by Bowers and Wilkins. It's all something you have to experience to believe. So book your Test Drive for Polestar 3 [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by LifeLock.

[Mason]

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[Charlie Kirk]

Control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it.

[Mason]

And they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats.

[Charlie Kirk]

If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off terms apply. My first prompt is abortion is murder and should be illegal. Okay. Hello. What's your name?

[Juliana]

Juliana.

[Charlie Kirk]

Nice to meet you.

[Juliana]

Nice to meet you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can we get our terms right first?

[Juliana]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. Abortion is the forcible ending of the viability of a being in utero, otherwise known as a fetus. Do we agree that's what abortion is?

[Juliana]

Okay. Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, great. And then murder is the intentional Taking of life different than killing or sudden death. So murder would be the intent, with intent taking another life. Do we agree with that?

[Juliana]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. And then we agree that murder in general in society should be illegal.

[Juliana]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, great.

[Juliana]

So, yeah, no, I do want to preface that I'm a Catholic, so I think one really important thing that the Bible says is to not judge. And just going back to the topic, I think there's a big difference between, you know, cells in utero than a living, breathing, existing being. And while I do believe it's murder, and that's just my personal belief. Right. I don't believe in telling people what to do with their bodies. That's not up to me and it's not up to us as well as Christians to judge.

[Charlie Kirk]

Should we prevent murder in society?

[Juliana]

For sure, yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, it should be illegal.

[Juliana]

But I think that it's really different. Right. Because you know, these people aren't.

[Charlie Kirk]

Sorry. Nice to meet you.

[Juliana]

Nice to meet you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, what's your name?

[Juliana]

Naima.

[Charlie Kirk]

Nice to meet you.

[Juliana]

Okay, can I just ask, at how many weeks do you think that a fetus is viable?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, viability and moral worth are two different things.

[Juliana]

No, but I'm asking you at how.

[Charlie Kirk]

Many weeks do you think at about 20 weeks a baby can survive outside of utero.

[Juliana]

So it's actually 24 to 26 weeks.

[Charlie Kirk]

20. The youngest ever in a NICU unit actually happened. San Diego, not far from here and survived at 20 weeks.

[Juliana]

Okay, so under Roe v. Wade, 93% of abortions happened in the first 13 weeks of pregnancy. That's 93% of the abortions happened well before a fetus is technically viable as a form of life.

[Charlie Kirk]

So let's go into viability. So what is it about, let's say a six week baby that has a heartbeat, its own DNA, fingerprint, brainwaves. That is less moral worth than an 88 year old right now with dementia in a home down the street. That person requires assistance, requires help. Why is it that the six week baby is of less moral worth?

[Juliana]

Well, first of all, it's not a baby, it's a fetus.

[Charlie Kirk]

What does fetus mean?

[Juliana]

A fetus is in utero.

[Charlie Kirk]

What does fetus mean in Latin?

[Juliana]

What the f. I'm sorry, is this language code?

[Charlie Kirk]

It means little human being.

[Juliana]

His smile is very creepy.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, smiling is creepy.

[Juliana]

No, your smile specifically.

[Charlie Kirk]

Got it.

[Juliana]

But let's go back to. We're losing track here.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, but what species is the fetus?

[Juliana]

The fetus is not a species yet. It's technically Classified as a parasite until it is viable.

[Charlie Kirk]

Now, I want to talk to you about something very quick. I can't let you get past that. Are you saying a baby is a disease or a tumor?

[Juliana]

A parasite is not a disease and a tumor, those are not the same thing. A parasite is defined as something that cannot survive outside of its host. A baby, before it is viable, cannot survive outside of a woman's womb.

[Charlie Kirk]

Got it. So let's extrapolate that it is not a living organism. Are old people with Alzheimer's and dementia that are being assisted every day, Are they parasites?

[Juliana]

No, they're not parasites. They're human beings who are on the brink of death.

[Charlie Kirk]

Got it. So my sister, they're not going to be my 4 month old that requires mom's breast milk and requires daily changes and feedings. Cannot survive without its own. Is my 4 month old a parasite?

[Juliana]

Your baby can breathe on its own. Your baby can drink water from its mouth to its stomach, but it can't.

[Mason]

Your baby can eat.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can it hunt? Can it gather? Can it reason?

[Juliana]

But that's not what qualifies something as.

[Charlie Kirk]

Being a living organism.

[Juliana]

Being a living organism simply means can you survive outside of a womb, outside of your host.

[Charlie Kirk]

Got it. So I just want to make sure I'm clear. Why does that then equate to moral viability?

[Juliana]

It equates to scientific viability.

[Charlie Kirk]

Why? Under what standard?

[Juliana]

Because it is not alive. And you are advocating for the rights of something that is not technically a life.

[Charlie Kirk]

Got it. So what is something while sacrificing the.

[Juliana]

Needs of the human woman who is alive.

[Charlie Kirk]

Got it. So, but a mom can survive, survive without the baby in her, right?

[Juliana]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

The baby cannot survive without the mom.

[Juliana]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

But a mom cannot survive without her lungs. So it's not her body. It's in her body. It's not her DNA, so it's not her choice. So it's a.

[Juliana]

It actually is directly her DNA. It is 100%. It's 50% of her DNA, half her DNA.

[Charlie Kirk]

She's gonna win. I'm telling you. This could take a while. Okay, first of all, do we have our terms? Correct. We agree? Actually, no. So first of all, I would like to refine our terms. Two points to bring up after that, though.

[Mason]

So you define murder is like intentionally.

[Charlie Kirk]

Like killing a human being? I think that's a very poor way to define murder. Because if someone were to like break into my home and point a gun at the heads of me and everybody I love and I intentionally kill them to prevent them from Unaliving from killing my family.

[Mason]

I don't think I murdered them.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right.

[Mason]

So I would define murder as the.

[Charlie Kirk]

Unjustified termination of a human life. You're making a good point. Let me further clarify that. So self defense is very warranted.

[Mason]

Exactly right.

[Charlie Kirk]

But I can see where you're going to go with how that has to go with abortion, but we can go down that journey in a second. Yeah. So, I mean, like, I kind of.

[Mason]

Do want to give you my argument.

[Charlie Kirk]

Insofar as why I'm pro choice, why.

[Mason]

I think it's justified. But first, I think that, you know, your position is quite absurd.

[Juliana]

Right.

[Mason]

Because you're saying that it is murder to kill a human being.

[Juliana]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

At any point in development, especially when it's in the mother's womb. My question to you would be, well.

[Mason]

Does this make women with IUDs murderers? Because it is the case that in some scenarios an IUD will allow for conception to occur. Meaning there's a unique human life there.

[Juliana]

But it will prevent its implantation intentionally killing it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, no, preventing implantation is not necessarily the same thing as terminating a fertilized egg. For example, if you take Plan B again, it's not the same thing. Preventing the production of progesterone is not the same thing as terminating a being that has been fertilized. You do not know for a fact that the egg has been fertilized. You do not know that we have an iud. Okay.

[Juliana]

Yeah.

[Mason]

So preventing fertilization or implantation to the uterine lining and is killing a conceived zygote.

[Charlie Kirk]

So what happens? A sperm goes into the egg.

[Juliana]

Right.

[Mason]

The egg becomes fertilized.

[Juliana]

It's a conceived zygote.

[Mason]

In some cases, it will prevent the implantation of the conceived zygote.

[Charlie Kirk]

Killing the conceived zygote in some cases. Correct. So what do you say? In some cases, women value. These are murderers? Of course not. They're not murderers. We do not know. For a case, that's like saying that everybody.

[Mason]

So what's the difference between an IUD killing a conceived zygote and like a.

[Charlie Kirk]

Mother going to Planned Parenthood and killing.

[Mason]

The fetus in her womb?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, so you're asking two separate things. If they knew for certain, to be more clear, that I have a fertilized egg and I'm gonna take a drug to prevent that fertilized egg from attaching to their uterine wall, then yes, that is an act of killing. Or murder. Of course.

[Mason]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

So do you think all murderers should go to jail? Do I think all murderers should go to jail. I mean, on third degree murder, however. No, I don't think women that got abortions or had IUDs should go to jail because I think that they have been deceived by mass culture and mass propaganda. Secondly, the people who should go to jail are the abortionists who are the ones that have been putting the abortion pill, the ones that have been doing procedures, the ones that have been going into the third trimester and breaking babies backs and inserting them with syringes while the babies are crying and suffocating. Being born alive and then being dead on the operating table, that is who should go to jail. That was actually the best point somebody made. We'll have to talk about it.

[Juliana]

Okay. Whenever I'm talking about this discussion, I always go to the question of what about in the case of the mother when her life is in danger? Because I'm a big believer. I don't. I don't know. I'm still iffy on if I think it's abort or if it's murder or not. But even so, I mean, I don't want to say murder is justified. Guys, wait, let me just get this one point and then you can vote me out. Give me one second. Say the mother gets pregnant and she knows that if she gives birth she's gonna die, she has some kind of health complication. Then what do you do?

[Charlie Kirk]

A cerian section.

[Juliana]

I don't know what that means.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's a C section.

[Juliana]

Guys, wait, hold on. Just give me one second.

[Charlie Kirk]

They go right below the belly button and they deliver the baby and she doesn't have to give birth. It's technically birth, but it's much safer. So that's actually safer than an abortion procedure. Sorry, sorry. Lily. Hello. How are you?

[Mason]

Hi.

[Charlie Kirk]

What's your name?

[Juliana]

Deden.

[Charlie Kirk]

Nice to meet you.

[Juliana]

Nice to meet you. I would say with abortion, I think it's.

[Mason]

It's very complicated. But I think the issue that I have primarily with your stance of being pro life, that there's no nuance. There's women who are being forced to travel hundreds of miles to access abortion care, even in cases of rape in certain states, that they're not giving any sort of allowance for that. And I think, you know, a lot.

[Juliana]

Of people who are pro life, they.

[Mason]

They say that they're pro life, but I feel like they're really pro birth because in, you know, with firearms, the United States has some of the highest firearm deaths out of OECD nations. Right. And we can acknowledge that that's for.

[Juliana]

Children who are actually living and breathing.

[Mason]

So I feel like abortion while. Yeah, it is. I can, I can definitely see your point. I just think that it, it should be allowed in some circumstances.

[Juliana]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Great. I'm happy to get into the gun violence stuff later, but I want to really stay focused on abortion. You can say you see my point. Can you see the world also where since we know it's a human life, that it should be illegal since we don't allow murder in our society?

[Juliana]

Well, that's where I have an issue.

[Mason]

Because abortion is not being done willy nilly. It's like the life of the mother is always.

[Charlie Kirk]

How many abortions do you think we have every day in America? Just guess.

[Juliana]

I'm not sure.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm not sure. Yes.

[Mason]

I'm honestly not sure.

[Charlie Kirk]

Maybe I don't know, a thousand, four thousand a day. So it is kind of willy nilly. We have 1.6. Sorry. Hello.

[Juliana]

Hi. I just want to clarify. The thing that you're aiming for is less abortion, right? That would be what you would want.

[Charlie Kirk]

Or at least no one would eventually. It's also a protection of those that can't protect themselves. But yes. And that's why once we, after the reversal of Roe vs Wade, we saw abortions go down dramatically in Texas, Alabama, Mississippi. We saw thousands of babies that are now alive and well, that are able to have amazing lives thanks to the reversal of Roe vs. Wade.

[Juliana]

I don't think a lot of that is true.

[Mason]

It is, but it's not true.

[Juliana]

Because when you make abortion illegal, it doesn't actually decrease the amount of abortion.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's a nice talking point. In Texas, the numbers show differently. The birth rate has gone up.

[Juliana]

Yeah, legal goes down, but illegal abortions still happen. Abortions still happen outside of whatever data you're seeing.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's not true, but let's just say so. So. Well, if you want to. Well, first of all, if you count the abortion pill, you're right. But that's a separate thing than a chemical. Chemical abortion and surgical abortion are different things. And I'm not debating.

[Mason]

I'm not.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm not debating you, I'm debating her. So if you want to do the flags and come back in, try and be faster next time. So let me ask you this. So the question is we should try to limit unjust suffering of human beings, right?

[Juliana]

Sure.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. That's my position is that there's unjust suffering of anywhere between 1.4 to 1.6 million abortions a year of human beings that are Being massacred in the womb. And so that's not a women's rights issue. That's not a men's rights issue. That's just a human rights issue.

[Juliana]

Okay. The best way to decrease abortions happening is proper sex education. Limiting abortion and making abortion illegal does not actually decrease the amount of abortions by.

[Charlie Kirk]

So what is your evidence of that?

[Juliana]

What is my evidence of that?

[Charlie Kirk]

Because we have increased sex education the last 30 years we've had.

[Juliana]

No. Our sex education is so bad in America.

[Charlie Kirk]

By bad, what do you mean by that? We have more access to birth control for young kids. We have more kids that are learning to use birth control at a younger age. We have more of that in our public school system. And we've seen all the trends actually go in a negative direction. So, in fact, we see that the more sex education there is, the more disturbing those trends are. So you say that. Let me ask just one more thing. You say that if we make abortion illegal, people will still do it. Should we then just make gang violence legal? Because.

[Juliana]

No, I'm saying if you actually wanted to decrease the amount of abortions that happen, you wouldn't be advocating for, like, to make abortion illegal. You'd be advocating all of these things.

[Charlie Kirk]

Does that logic apply to stealing, looting, kidnapping, arson, and murder?

[Juliana]

Well, actually, it does, because those are results of different societal issues that you should be educating yourself rather than making it illegal.

[Charlie Kirk]

So we should make. Can we. Should we make kidnapping, arson, burglary, murder legal because they're symptoms of something else?

[Juliana]

We should be helping society heal from those things.

[Charlie Kirk]

You gotta answer the question. We want less of those things. Should we just make them legal and we'll get less looting?

[Juliana]

You know, actually, I'm gonna let someone else do that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thank you very much. Hi, Parker. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.

[Mason]

Yes, nice to meet you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Charlie, Big TikTok guy here.

[Mason]

So, like, pedophiles, people who were married to children in the past and normalized in that situation, society, should they go to prison?

[Charlie Kirk]

Should pedophiles.

[Mason]

Like, if you could go back in time, would you put those pedophiles in prison that was that married those children because it was normalized. They were deceived into thinking it's okay. Would you put them in prison?

[Charlie Kirk]

You got to slow down. Pedophiles should get the death penalty.

[Mason]

No. So you'd go back in the past, you'd give them the death penalty even though they were deceived into thinking it was okay. But you said people who get abortions who are women shouldn't go to prison.

[Charlie Kirk]

But it's not currently illegal.

[Mason]

Okay, regardless, at that time. At that time it wasn't.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I would not go back and retroactively enforce laws where things were currently not illegal.

[Mason]

You wouldn't put pedophiles in prison in the past.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on a second. When was it legal in America?

[Mason]

Well, child marriage was legal in America throughout the early 1900s and especially throughout most of society for thousands of years. Especially in the Old Testament and in the Bible. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, hold on, hold on a second. So where is the Levitical law that allows you to marry a child?

[Mason]

Oh, yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can you name the verse?

[Mason]

So. Well, I can't name the verse, but the particular conditions that are listed in the Bible are that you have to beat physical maturity and emotional maturity, which is extremely vague and threat society has been seen to be met.

[Charlie Kirk]

There is not a verse. But let's kind of go.

[Mason]

Okay, so when is under your review.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let's go back to. Well, generally agreed upon as 18 years old. But let me ask you.

[Mason]

But you, but you. Because you don't. You don't go based upon what's general. You go based on the bible.

[Charlie Kirk]

I say 18 years old. But let me ask you a question.

[Mason]

Where's that?

[Charlie Kirk]

When does life begin?

[Mason]

Conception.

[Charlie Kirk]

Conception. Great. So good. So should we protect all life at conception?

[Mason]

I care about sentient life. Not.

[Charlie Kirk]

So when do brain waves start?

[Mason]

Do you think brain dead people should be able to pull the plug on like a family should be able to pull the plug on individual.

[Charlie Kirk]

You've got to answer the question when do brain. When do brain waste. When do brain waves start?

[Mason]

You can see brain waves around six to eight weeks, which in brain dead individual there are brainwaves as well. So the brain waves necessary to produce this objective experience until around.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can you see it? Can you see it from my perspective that at six to eight weeks those brain waves will actually increase, not decrease, if allowed the process of development to continue.

[Mason]

Did you know those same EEG scans exist in brain dead people that you don't think are sick? No, no.

[Charlie Kirk]

But the difference with the brain dead people is that the likelihood of those brain waves actually increasing is very low at six to eight weeks when by 15 weeks they can hear the mom's voice.

[Mason]

It's irreversible sensation. That's what brain death is. I didn't really know that. But no, it's not coma.

[Charlie Kirk]

But you're doing a red herring. Go back to what's a red herring? A red herring is where you avoid the topic and you say something that is adjacent or symmetrical to what I'm saying, but not actually. I'm saying.

[Mason]

You mean to reduction out of sort of. That's not a red herring.

[Charlie Kirk]

A six to eight week baby, if they're allowed to continue to develop, what.

[Mason]

Ends up happening at a certain point, it will become a sentient being in the future. The same way if I keep engaging in sex with my girlfriend, there'll be a baby in the future. Yet I don't care about the sex.

[Charlie Kirk]

Unless you're infertile, which we don't know. But. So let's, let's see, let's see the process of development. Right.

[Mason]

Why don't answer my question.

[Charlie Kirk]

Why do you have the ability or.

[Mason]

Should I Show those child P3s go to prison?

[Charlie Kirk]

The process of pedophiles go to prison from 1904. How many pedophiles are alive from 1904?

[Mason]

They're not alive.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right.

[Mason]

I meant like if you can go back in the past, hypothetically speaking, and you could put them in prison, would you put them in prison?

[Charlie Kirk]

I would have killed them myself if I was alive.

[Mason]

Okay, so then, so then you don't apply it based upon what people are deceived to believe. You apply based on what you consider to be moral. The women who had abortions, you think they should go to prison. So why should women who get abortions go to prison, but someone like my mom who told me that Santa Claus.

[Charlie Kirk]

Exists shouldn't go to prison. Constructive debate. If you keep on talking over me.

[Mason]

Well, I was finishing my statement. You were talking over me.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me ask you a very simple question. Do you think it would be a good thing if we had less abortions in America?

[Mason]

It depends on the context. Like are the abortions prior to sentience?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes. Because all abortions.

[Mason]

Yeah. No, it would not be necessarily against unless it is the case of the people didn't want the abortions and it would be negatively impactful to their health medically. Are you against abortion after sentience? Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so you believe in an eight week abortion ban?

[Mason]

Yeah. No, no, no, I don't. I don't. Sorry. I believe in an abortion ban after 18 through 26 weeks.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. That's a more reasonable position. I have to give you credit for that.

[Mason]

It's similar to Trump's 15 weeks.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. So why do you think that most people don't share your view on that?

[Mason]

Well, people just don't really know what sentience is. There's not a lot of conversation about abortion and these conversations are very difficult. Like they're conceptually hard to go through. And I understand why a lot of people don't understand for sure their positions on it, but I think people are.

[Charlie Kirk]

Where most people are cutting me off.

[Mason]

I thought, I thought we weren't cutting.

[Charlie Kirk]

I was actually complimenting. How are you? Nice to see you.

[Juliana]

So I just have one question. There's like in any case, you don't think there's any case where abortion should be legal?

[Charlie Kirk]

There's a very, very rare couple cases.

[Juliana]

Okay, so you do think that a couple cases is legal.

[Charlie Kirk]

If, if, if cesarean section is not going to save the mother's life and the mother's life is actually at risk, which is debated amongst growing numbers of obgyns. That is the only case where abortion should be, should be allowed. But people say it is a growing consensus in the pro life world that abortion is never medically necessary.

[Juliana]

Okay, so if you had a daughter and she was 10 and she got. And she was gonna give birth and she would. No, wait. Oh. And she was gonna give birth and she was gonna live, would you want her to go through that and carry her baby?

[Charlie Kirk]

That's awfully graphic.

[Juliana]

It's no, but it's a real life scenario that happens to many people.

[Charlie Kirk]

The answer is yes, the baby would be delivered.

[Juliana]

Oh, okay, great. So I. That's insane.

[Charlie Kirk]

But let me tell you why. No, hold on. Let me ask you a question. There's two ultrasounds I have. One is a baby conceived in one. Is a baby conceived by a loving couple. Which one is which?

[Juliana]

Your daughter was hopefully conceded.

[Charlie Kirk]

Which person here was conceived by r. Tell me which one was conceived by. You don't know exactly, because it's all human rights, but it's all human being.

[Juliana]

But that doesn't matter. But it's about your daughter who's asked to give birth to and it's going to be tortured by that for the rest of her life. That's going to take away every freedom she's ever going to have. That's going to ruin her life. She's going to grow up and she's.

[Charlie Kirk]

Going to be a victim. The point is, how you were conceived is irrelevant to what human rights you get. But when. Hold on one second. If a person conceived in walks down the side of the street, it's not like they don't get first amendment rights or second amendment rights.

[Juliana]

It's not about that person.

[Charlie Kirk]

The worst thing to do to the daughter is to then say, hey, we're going to go murder the being inside of you.

[Juliana]

They wouldn't even know. Like listen.

[Charlie Kirk]

They wouldn't.

[Juliana]

Listen, listen, listen, listen.

[Charlie Kirk]

But wouldn't it be a better story to say something evil happened and we do something good in the face of evil instead of saying we're do evil and then murder the being because we're going to pander to the evil? No, what makes the west great is that we do good after evil, not evil after evil.

[Juliana]

It's not about the being in the cells. It's not about. No, no, no, I'm speaking. No, I'm speaking. No, I'm speaking. No, I'm speaking.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I'm speaking.

[Juliana]

No, I'm speaking. No, I'm speaking. No, I'm speaking.

[Charlie Kirk]

Want to say one more time?

[Juliana]

No, I'm speaking.

[Charlie Kirk]

Got it.

[Juliana]

Thank you. So it's not. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the person. No, no, I'm talking about the person who is dealing with the pregnancy. I am not talking about the cells. I don't, I don't get. No, listen, the fetus, the whatever. I don't care about that right now. Until it is formed. If there is a five year old child who is pregnant and the baby.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is two weeks in utero, can't get pregnant.

[Juliana]

Actually they have and they have given birth.

[Charlie Kirk]

Five year olds have given pregnant.

[Juliana]

There is one, there is one recorded case of a five year old boy that gave birth.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is that common?

[Juliana]

Yes, it's common. Five year olds get sometimes and if they get pregnant, I think they should be able to have medical access to something that could save not only just their life, but like their livelihood.

[Charlie Kirk]

How many? How many? I'm.

[Juliana]

I hope your daughter lives a very happy life and gets away from you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so that is really nasty. And so her belief system, just so we're clear, is that the time's up. Yeah, no, I got it. It's fine. I mean it's insanely nasty. And we'll talk again.

[Juliana]

This message is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is a debit card in the number one family finance and safety app used by millions of families helping kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. Parents can send their kids money and track their spending and saving while kids build money, confidence and skills in fun ways. Start your risk free Greenlight trial [e-mail] Spotify that's greenlight.com Spotify this episode brought to you by MGM from executive producer Stephen King and an executive producer of Frog Comes the Institute, a chilling new original series from mgm. Kidnapped and trapped in a sinister facility.

[Charlie Kirk]

Gifted teen Luke Ellis must join other.

[Juliana]

Children to fight for their survival. Starring Emmy award winner Mary Louise Parker, Ben Barnes, and introducing Joe Freeman.

[Mason]

The institute, premiering July 13 on MGM.

[Charlie Kirk]

My next claim is that college is a scam. Foreign what's your name?

[Mason]

I'm Maddox.

[Charlie Kirk]

How are you doing? Good. So college is a scam? Well, let's define our terms. College being traditional. Four year college, of course, university, not community college or technical college, of course. A scam, if we can agree on a definition, is where a majority of people who will go through the institution or business, they're not getting their money's worth, their time's worth, and they're being deceived when they sign up. So do we agree on those terms?

[Mason]

Yeah, Perfect.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. Well, what would further definitions?

[Mason]

What do you think is the purpose.

[Charlie Kirk]

Of going to college? The purpose of college should be a traditional liberal arts education pursuit of what is good, true and beautiful. That's not what it is. It should be the betterment of yourself and your soul, nurturing your character and becoming a better citizen, understanding the deeper things in life. At the very least, though, it should be preparing one for the job market. Do you think college does those things? I think it does. But I would add on to your point that I think not only is it for the betterment of yourself, but it's for the betterment of society. We need historians, we need certain majors that may not make as much money. I think those are for the betterment of society. Would you agree that there's some majors that may not make money but are still essential to society? It depends. Do you think that getting a degree in gender studies is good for society? I would agree, yeah. Why would studying gender not be good for study? Well, learning that men can give birth is not exactly a good use of time. Is that what they're teaching in college right now? According to the center for Disease Control, they no longer say women can give birth. They say birthing persons.

[Mason]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you think men can give birth? Do I think men can give birth? I think that. Yes or no question. I think that a person who is assigned male at birth, I don't think they assigned male at birth. So people are not male at birth. I think that a person. See your evidence that college is a scam, my friend. College is a scam. You're not. You're lacking in a lot of.

[Mason]

Well, here we can continue right now.

[Charlie Kirk]

So gender studies. Do you think that studying gender is not essential. Should we not deepen our understanding? Well, first of all, I don't think gender. We're gonna get there later. I don't think gender exists. I think that there are two sexes, infinite personalities and no genders. However, let's get back to the core contention. Well, you're. Can I ask my question again real quick? Well, I'm gonna get back to my core contention. A scam. So the majority of kids that go to college, if they end up getting a job at all, they end up getting a job that does not require a college degree. Do you think that certain jobs that may not associate with a direct major can incorporate skills that you learn from a major? I think I'm. Personally, I'm an econ major, and depending on what job I do in the future, I can still use the skills. So tell me about Milton Friedman.

[Mason]

Tell me about Milton Friedman. He is an economist from.

[Charlie Kirk]

How about Thomas Sowell? Thomas Sowell, Ludwig van Mises? Ludwig. Well, I will say that I'm a first.

[Juliana]

How about.

[Charlie Kirk]

How about. I'd love to see you answer the gender studies question. We will get there later. That's what psychedelics are for. Who's next?

[Juliana]

Well, I think it's difficult to think about just one major, thinking about just gender studies. Sure. Not everyone should be a gender studies major. We need doctors, we need lawyers. We need everything. However, why does it matter if 10 people want to be a gender studies major? And it matters to them. Not everyone can be a lawyer. Not everyone can be a doctor. There needs to be some people. And you know what? Yeah, it sucks that some people do go to college and get a degree, and then they end up not in a workforce for that. But I don't think that has to do with, like, college was a scam. It's more like maybe that just wasn't the path for them or that life choice was just too hard to get for them. But some people are able to go to college and get a degree and use it. And that is super important because imagine if no doctors went to college. They're just like, I think I can do it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, of course, doctors and lawyers need credentialing, right?

[Juliana]

But college.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, less than 5% of all people that go to college end up studying medicine or in legal. The vast majority go into soft social sciences, communications, or the humanities. So you're in college or have been. Is that correct?

[Juliana]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Are you forced to take classes that you think are a waste of time?

[Juliana]

Yeah, I'm forced. You know what?

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on. So they're Taking your money and they're forcing you that they're a waste of time. That's kind of scammy, right?

[Juliana]

Oh, I think that some classes, some.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you have to probably go in debt, right?

[Juliana]

Depends.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. Are you going. Are you going. Are you going into debt?

[Juliana]

No.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, well, that's good.

[Juliana]

I picked a school that actually offered me a scholarship.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, so someone else is paying for your college?

[Juliana]

Oh, I don't know. Depends on me. I mean, that's school that wanted to give me an opportunity. But that's not what we're talking about.

[Charlie Kirk]

We're talking about the scam element, right? So you said that there are some classes that if students had to go into debt or had to pay for, would not be a good use of their time. So it's not representing students well.

[Juliana]

Well, do you think like, high school is a scam then? Because I had to pay for high school, but I didn't. I'm not going to use AP U.S. history in my psychology degree ever.

[Charlie Kirk]

I think AP U.S. history is actually a really good use of time knowing about your country and your history.

[Juliana]

Well, but I'm not going to use that in my career. That's what we're talking about in the career path for college.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let's go back to what I said, right? We said traditional college for your college. And what a scam is where a majority, a majority of the people that will go through the enterprise, the business or the institution are not getting their time worth or their money worth. So therefore, I go back to my core consent tension, which is a majority of kids that exit college will not use their degree at all when they go to find a job.

[Juliana]

But if you ask them, do you think college was a scam? I don't think majority of them are going to say yes. Some of them will. Some of them are going to.

[Charlie Kirk]

Not everyone who's being scammed actively knows they're being scammed, but it's still buy erectile dysfunction drugs off the Internet and they get scammed.

[Juliana]

Okay. That's their own personal choice.

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course people have choices to be scammed. I'm not saying they don't have a choice. I'm making an observation analysis of the incident institution. For example, flying Spirit Airlines, kind of a scam should be shut down. There is some. Yeah, kind of agree. There are some things in life we have to take a step back and like, oh, the consumer is not being well served.

[Juliana]

You want to shut down a bunch of majors in colleges that you think are scams.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I never said that.

[Juliana]

So what would your proposal be to fix the scam of college?

[Charlie Kirk]

There is no proposal. I'm simply the contention is college is a scam.

[Juliana]

So then what's the point of that statement?

[Charlie Kirk]

To get you to agree.

[Juliana]

But like what would that do? Do like what do you want to fix in college that's going to help it not be a scam?

[Charlie Kirk]

We can get to step interval 2. As long as you can agree that college is a scam.

[Juliana]

No, because not for everyone. For me, I'm using a degree that's going to help me help people make better.

[Charlie Kirk]

What are you studying?

[Juliana]

Psychology and criminal justice.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so. And it's being paid for by somebody else, which is, which is fine. That's good. So psychology and criminal justice. Do you, do you absolutely need to get a degree to be able to, to get into this that you do?

[Juliana]

Yeah, I really, I mean like I could I guess study it all on my own, but it's just like makes more sense to go and have all these experience. I'm getting like wonderful experiences, internships all through my college. That's helping me go through it. No, it's just that this is a pathway that's really helping me.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you know, there's 11 million jobs open in the country right now that don't require a college degree.

[Juliana]

Okay. Then the people who want those jobs can go get those jobs. I'm not one of those.

[Charlie Kirk]

Too many kids to college.

[Juliana]

No.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so the national graduation rate is 59%. If I asked the room, everyone would agree that they know some people that went to college that did not graduate. Yeah, right. So we're probably sending too many kids into this institution.

[Juliana]

But if they might have been able to do it, then like, why is it not worth it to try and push yourself to get a better education and go further?

[Charlie Kirk]

Even with. That's a bad thing. Right.

[Juliana]

But some people are able to work through that and it's like opportunity things.

[Charlie Kirk]

When an institution is more multi trillion dollars in scale, involves 23 million of our citizens every four years, and is not actually bettering the country. For example, if college was so great, we would see incomes going up for Gen Z and millennials. We'd see more people that own homes. Kids wouldn't. I'm telling you, this is so ableist what you're doing, by the way. I'm telling you. Right. Hello, what's your name?

[Juliana]

Alazai.

[Charlie Kirk]

Nice to meet you.

[Juliana]

Okay, so let me start by saying. Well, first of all, you said we're sending too many kids to college who's sending them. Who's forcing them?

[Charlie Kirk]

Guidance counselors, parents, community.

[Juliana]

Are they forcing them? Are they signing them up themselves?

[Charlie Kirk]

Forcing? I never said forcing. But you can have. Nudging and forcing are two different things. We also subsidize college through the federal government. So you guys get subsidized interest rates, scholarships and loans. So the taxpayer is nudging students and gently and sometimes forcefully pushing them into college. And you would agree with it is an expectation if you grow up in a upper middle class home to go to college. You would agree with that. So there's a societal, cultural.

[Juliana]

I didn't grow up in an upper middle class.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, well, but do you do. Would you see it from there? Would you see how that's. That argument is correct.

[Juliana]

I guess there might be a pressure. But no one's sending them. You're sending yourself.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, of course.

[Juliana]

Well, we're all over the age of 18, right. When you're in college. So you're sending yourself. Right, but that's besides.

[Charlie Kirk]

But let's be honest. I mean, that's a silly argument. Yes, they're technically send themselves. I was just at Arizona State University. Move in. Everyone had their parents there. They were co signing on loans. They were there helping pay for stuff. Parents are the ones that are still checking in. They're the ones that largely subsidize their lifestyle. Hey mom, can you venmo me 3,000 bucks so that I can go out an extra night? Yes, of course, when you're 18 years old, you're the one signing on the dotted line. But there's enormous pressure and nudging and cultural expectation that students go to college.

[Mason]

Right.

[Juliana]

Okay. I think the problem here is that it's up to the person. You can't just go to college and expect to come out with a degree. You have to put the work in. You have to put the work in. You have to make connections. And some people might think college is just four years of partying and drinking and making friends, whatever, but you have to actually put the work in. And if you put the work in, you make connections and you can find a job right outside of college.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, no, not doubting that you can't find a job. It's just that 52% of them get a job that doesn't require them to to get the degree.

[Juliana]

But most jobs offer incentive pay if you have a degree. And 86%, 86% of people with a degree get paid more than people with just a high school diploma.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's only if you count the ones at the top 10% of income earners. So not if you count humanities, not if you count people that study in the social sciences. If you count medicine or you count law, that's absolutely correct. However, the vast majority of kids that go to college are not studying medicine, law, engineering, business, finance. They're studying communications, social science or humanities, which are on the lower income ladder. So as I mentioned, we have 11 million job openings in this country right now that do not require a college degree. I'm guessing in this room that within four to five years you guys would kill to be able to earn 80 to 80 to $100,000 a year. Yes. Do you know that in states across the country and in cities they're offering apprenticeships, become plumbers and welders, electricians. That doesn't require for your college degree entrance salary $80,000 a year.

[Juliana]

But again, 86% of people with a bachelor's degree earn more than people with a high school diploma. No, 86% of all people with a.

[Charlie Kirk]

Bachelor'S degree, if you take out the top 10%, it's actually lower than those that don't go to college. So the reason that number that average goes up is because the doctors and the engineers and the lawyers are the ones that bring that average so significantly up. But let me ask you a question that do you think that there's any waste at all in the current college model?

[Juliana]

Do I think there's any waste? I don't think we need all of it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, good. What part?

[Juliana]

Well, you have to start with your core classes and it's like high school, you're taking the same classes.

[Charlie Kirk]

So do you think like, for example, do you think that. Okay, nice to meet you.

[Juliana]

I'm Emily. Nice to meet you. Earlier said that about 5% of of college students are going into fields of like medicine, law and engineering.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me clarify. As far as they are going to be able to get postgraduate degrees, so they will go all the way up and get their Juris Master or they will end up passing the bar or becoming a doctor. Right. So it's easy to say doctors, lawyers, but healthcare professionals, if you count nurses or people that work in healthcare, that number is closer to 20, 25%.

[Juliana]

Okay, so 5%. Who here has a doctor? Can you like raise your hand if you have a doctor?

[Charlie Kirk]

Like a medical.

[Juliana]

A doctor? Yeah, like a medical doctor. Yeah. You do? Okay, 5% is still a lot of people, right?

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course. But that means 95% might not need to exist at the institution.

[Juliana]

I don't think that's the takeaway. Just because 5%, which is still millions of Americans.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on a second. But if you were to say, hey, we only have medical schools, only have legal. We can get rid of gender studies. Get rid of. So what's. What's the contention?

[Juliana]

Well, gender studies is actually if you look on, like, the pre law track. Gender studies is pre law track. If you're going to be a lawyer, you have to study gender studies and other social cultural sciences.

[Charlie Kirk]

College is a scam. Why would a lawyer need to study gender studies? Shouldn't a lawyer know the law?

[Juliana]

It's a social science. The law. You think the law isn't inadvertently affected by social, cultural and gender norms?

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course it is. But shouldn't they first know the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, the Federalist Papers?

[Juliana]

We learned that in high school.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so what is Marbury versus Madison?

[Juliana]

I haven't been in high school for a really long time. I'm not trying to be a lawyer. Yeah, So, I mean, high schools are.

[Charlie Kirk]

What was Brown versus the Board of Education?

[Juliana]

That's for desegregating schools.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, good.

[Juliana]

Yeah. Which Project 2025 wants to, like, defund the Department of Education?

[Charlie Kirk]

So, like, who wrote the Constitution?

[Juliana]

Founding Fathers? 1778? I don't know.

[Charlie Kirk]

It wasn't 17, it's 78.

[Juliana]

I don't know. Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

You don't know.

[Juliana]

No.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, well, this is. The point, is that you don't learn it in high school. You don't even learn it in undergraduate, and our law school is not learning it. So maybe.

[Juliana]

Well, I'm not in law school.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, the point is that you were saying they already learned it and they don't. I don't want this to be a pop quiz or trivia. I didn't go to college. And I'm asking you very basic civic questions and you're paying to go to college and you can't answer them.

[Juliana]

That's so fair. But I think.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thank you. Sorry.

[Mason]

I have a question. Is church a scam?

[Charlie Kirk]

No. Because church is honoring the divine and the internal and the good and the true and the beautiful. Is college.

[Mason]

But it. But it deceives people because you give a promise of everlasting life, which you don't actually get because Christianity is contradictory, logically speaking.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you want to get into a theological debate or are we going to talk about college? Because I completely disagree. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and we will have eternal life.

[Mason]

Okay, so how, if there is a perfect being that created the world, how could we exist in an imperfect world?

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm Happy to have this discussion. Can we go back to college, though? Because do you think. Because that's a little bit of a red herring and a little bit of a rabbit hole. Tell me what that has to do with college being a scam.

[Mason]

Well, I do think college can be a scam for certain people. I don't think it's a scam for everyone. For people like me, college was very beneficial for me, for sure. Who is it a scam? Asking you, based upon your definition of a scam, do you consider the Christian church a scam?

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course not. It's giving people eternal life and teaches them.

[Mason]

But if Christianity is false, then that's a deception.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, but you think it's false. I don't. We can agree to disagree also.

[Mason]

I'm not agreeing to disagree on that.

[Charlie Kirk]

But we're not talking about the. We're not talking about the church. We're talking about college. Right. So again, also, people are not paying to go to church.

[Mason]

But it's a reductiative.

[Charlie Kirk]

Ask the question.

[Mason]

What's a reductia? Out of surdom.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's a Latin term that means reducing down to the lowest common belief. Correct.

[Mason]

So I'm taking.

[Charlie Kirk]

Am I right? I didn't go to college. I knew that.

[Mason]

I'm taking your particular position.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me ask you a question without you interrupting me. Do you pay to go to church?

[Mason]

No, I don't. Some people, they're forced to pay based upon their particular denomination.

[Charlie Kirk]

And today, do you pay to go to church?

[Mason]

Depending on the church.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, you don't. Do you have to go to debt and to go to church?

[Mason]

In some circumstances people do because they have to give up 10 of their income to be able to do that. Which people can't afford.

[Charlie Kirk]

Circumstance.

[Mason]

Well, they're LDS. You understand that a lot of LDS churches specifically require 10%.

[Charlie Kirk]

They don't require it.

[Mason]

And what you're talking in plenty of places.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, you're asking mainline Christianity, isn't there.

[Mason]

Stigmatization if you don't do that?

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, you're good at interrupting, not good at answering.

[Mason]

Well, you haven't answered any of my questions yet.

[Charlie Kirk]

I did say no. Church is not a scam. Church is the bride of Christ. Christ. College is a scam and college is. People are going into debt. They're paying a lot of money. But I want to ask you a question. You said it's a scam for some people. Who is it a scam for?

[Mason]

Yeah, for people who specifically aren't ever going to use it. Never use any of the knowledge. Well, you say 52%. I don't think you can grant a qualified 52% of people don't do that. What would you say, for example, my job that's not going to be recommended like as. Like an economics degree. Most economics majors aren't going to go into TikTok debating online. But I use the information that I learned in college in, like, on. In my job on a daily basis. So I still use relevant qualities that are then used in my job later on.

[Charlie Kirk]

What percentage of kids that go to college are being scammed?

[Mason]

I don't think. I don't think anyone knows that because it's dependent upon an individual. I have no clue.

[Charlie Kirk]

Should we try to find out?

[Mason]

Well, if you'd like to find some empirics on that, I'd love to see it.

[Charlie Kirk]

I just did. So 41%. Well, the department education is a source.

[Mason]

No, the Department of Education doesn't say 41% of people it was a scam for or that they didn't use any of the information they learned in college.

[Charlie Kirk]

You are. You are using.

[Mason]

So are you saying none of them use any of the information?

[Charlie Kirk]

Can I say three words without you interrupting me?

[Mason]

Do any of them use the information later on?

[Charlie Kirk]

Can I say five words that interrupt me?

[Mason]

Well, you've been interrupting me most of the time. Multiple times.

[Charlie Kirk]

So since you say college is a scam for some people, it's a ballpark. For the kids that do not graduate, 41% that ended up going and not graduating, were they scammed?

[Mason]

No. Just because you go and pay for a particular thing, but then you don't follow through with it doesn't mean you were scammed. Maybe they were misled, you decided to pay for it. Oh, you could say some people are misled. Some people are tied into these things. Do you think that some people are misled in the church? And you never answered my question on that because you're trying to. I did take that time down so that you don't have to answer the question about Christianity because you know your worldview looks terrible.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, what about Christianity? You want me to answer? We're talking about.

[Mason]

Well, I think it's false or because I was saying, is church a scam? If church is a scam, that'd be predicated off of the idea that you're deceived into believing that there's everlasting life again, Christianity has to be true. So can you grant that? What's the argument?

[Charlie Kirk]

Christianity is true. Did the resurrection.

[Mason]

What's the argument?

[Charlie Kirk]

You're going to let me finish three words in a row.

[Mason]

Appreciate it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. Did the resurrection happen?

[Mason]

I don't think the resurrection occurred.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, I disagree.

[Mason]

Okay, so let me ask you a question. A perfect creator. Is it possible for them to not desire something imperfect?

[Charlie Kirk]

A perfect is a perfect creator. I'm sorry.

[Mason]

What if there's a perfect creator that desires everything that's just perfect? How can they desire something imperfect, flawed?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, because maybe they want to get to know themselves. Maybe they want to see their own creation. Maybe they love their self.

[Mason]

They want to get to know them. Their evil knowing.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can I finish. Can I finish talking here? Okay. Maybe because God loved the world so much that his creation, which rebelled against him given agency and free will, rebelled against them, then got eternal life, what we actually deserve, and then sent his son on a rescue mission to save us from that. The church is the bride of Christ, will save us from damnation that we deserve. College is far from the bride of America. It's currently scamming the youth of this country and sending them into oblivion.

[Mason]

Didn't answer the question.

[Charlie Kirk]

I did.

[Mason]

No, you didn't say how we could desire something imperfect.

[Charlie Kirk]

How? How? Well.

[Mason]

Well, God can do anything about that later.

[Charlie Kirk]

God can do anything.

[Mason]

So even something logically contradictory.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, it's not logically contradictory to desire something imperfect. Can an unstoppable. Can an unstoppable object. Can an unstoppable object hit a force?

[Juliana]

Hey, before we go any further, we want to take a moment to say thanks so much to Straight Arrow News for powering the fact checks in this video. Straight Arrow News is an app and website that is on a mission to raise the bar on journalism in a time of media bias and mistrust. Their team of journalists believe that unbiased news should be the standard and not just the exception. So they report down the middle with facts, delivering news without bias, filter or spin. Plus, their Media Miss tool allows you to discover news that's being underreported or not even reported at all by different sides of mainstream media. That's why we're so happy to be partnering with Straight Arrow News. The work they're doing gives us a complete picture of the news straight from our phones and tablets with their app. Go to San or click the link in the description to check it out. By clicking that link, you're not just supporting this channel, you're also supporting a group of journalists that are raising the bar on news and focusing on serving you unbiased straight facts. Thanks again to Straight Arrow News for partnering with us on this episode. Now, let's get into it.

[Charlie Kirk]

My next claim is that trans women are not women. Okay, what's your name?

[Juliana]

Sam.

[Charlie Kirk]

Nice to meet you. Let's define our terms. A woman is an adult female. XX chromosomes. You tell me what is a woman?

[Mason]

I think a woman is somebody who identifies as a woman.

[Charlie Kirk]

Got it. So that's not a definition. That's like saying a table is something that identifies as a table. Give me an objective definition of.

[Mason]

No, it's not. A table is an object. Well, a table can't identify as anything. It doesn't have choice.

[Charlie Kirk]

You have to give me an objective definition of. Of what a woman is.

[Mason]

If I decided right now that I wanted to identify as a woman, I would be a woman.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, but that doesn't answer the question.

[Mason]

I know, but right now I'm a man, right? So if that happened right now I'd be a woman. Once a person makes the decision to identify as a woman or a woman.

[Charlie Kirk]

That'S a separate issue. What is a woman?

[Mason]

That's the definition.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I know, but you have to.

[Mason]

Tell me what a person who identifies themself as a woman.

[Charlie Kirk]

But how do you know that they are that thing.

[Mason]

How do I. I don't need to know what they. I can ask them if I want.

[Charlie Kirk]

To know, but there needs to be. You need to tell me what that thing is, though.

[Mason]

Somebody who. Okay, sorry. We're not getting anywhere. We're not getting any.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, no, no, that's important because it's like saying a giraffe is a thing that looks like a giraffe. Or a coyote is a thing that looks like a coyote. It's called circular reasoning. You have to give me a actual definition.

[Mason]

I don't have to. I. I did give you a definition.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, no, no, no. You said that a woman is something that thinks they're a woman that doesn't. Give me a definition that simply.

[Mason]

What would you consider a definition, then?

[Charlie Kirk]

An adult female with xx.

[Mason]

No, no, no. I mean, like, what. What makes that a definition?

[Charlie Kirk]

Hello? Hi, Juliana. Okay.

[Juliana]

I don't necessarily think that you can define a woman just by her chromosomes. Women are so much more than that. They come in a variety of shapes, sizes, colors. And I don't necessarily think that you can count out somebody who's trans just because they don't have a certain set of chromosomes. There are also people who are born. I'm trying to. I'm drawing a blank.

[Charlie Kirk]

Intersex.

[Juliana]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

So XXY or Y? Y. X or just.

[Juliana]

Yeah. Or like X000.

[Charlie Kirk]

So. So natural mutations upon the binary, essentially, Right?

[Juliana]

Yes. So.

[Charlie Kirk]

But they don't have both sex organs that both. That both operate. Right?

[Juliana]

Yeah, but that also, I don't think necessarily works. Right. Because if it's X, one is more dominant than the other, so you're either.

[Charlie Kirk]

More male or more female. Right. So you might have both a penis and vagina, but there's never been a case of someone who can impregnate themselves.

[Juliana]

Okay. I also don't necessarily think that works for this situation, but I also want to say that one of my best friends is trans, and I would say that she's more of a woman than I am. I think that women define themselves by multiple things, not just their sex organs. If somebody asked me who I was as a woman, I would not say I have a vagina.

[Charlie Kirk]

Totally fair. No, I think you said something smart. So you said that person is more of a woman than you are, therefore you're grading off. A definition of something accomplishes womanhood. What is that?

[Juliana]

I think it's. Well, that's the thing too. And I do think that gets a little complicated. Right. Because there are social norms for a gender, but I do think we try to break that. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

For sure. But you said that specific friend is more of a woman than you are. Why?

[Juliana]

I think she's a better person than me. I think she.

[Charlie Kirk]

So women are better people.

[Juliana]

She's a better woman than I am. I'm not saying women are better people.

[Charlie Kirk]

What makes a woman a woman? Because you said she's more of a woman than you are, so I want to know what that definition is.

[Juliana]

Right. Okay. I'm gonna let somebody else go. Thank you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. All right. Parker, what is a woman?

[Mason]

A woman is an adult human person that has a desire to be in accordance with the particular set of social and cultural norms that are typically. Typically associate with a female sex.

[Charlie Kirk]

No.

[Mason]

Define a man.

[Charlie Kirk]

Associate.

[Mason]

Define a man.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're looking at one XY chromosomes.

[Mason]

Okay, but does God the father have XY chromosomes? Prior to incarnation, we literally have a religious. He's a father, and he's he him. But he's not a man.

[Charlie Kirk]

We have a religious.

[Mason]

Wait, so a man is someone with XY chromosomes, but he doesn't have XY chromosomes. Did he still a man? He still uses preferred pronouns, actually.

[Charlie Kirk]

Very interesting. In the original Hebrew, adonai. Do you know what adonai is? It's the Hebrew word for God. It's actually genderless. But in this. And actually in the scriptures they use he Right. And they use the masculine. Jesus Christ came to earth as a man, not as a woman, not as genderqueer. But let's go back to the.

[Mason]

But God the Father is a man, right? Well, because all fathers are men.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, first of all, there's a trinity. So God the Father is neither man nor woman. He is omniscient, omnipotent. He is all being on top.

[Mason]

So why do you use He?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, I did not. The scriptures do. You could use woman, you could say her, you could use Him. But the way that the language is structured, again, it is so God the Father is so above gender. It is so above any of our understanding.

[Mason]

And why use Him?

[Charlie Kirk]

Glory and understand understanding again, because you have to make a choice. Either he or Him. Him or her in the original Scriptures. Let's go back to. I'm having.

[Mason]

Fathers aren't men and boys.

[Charlie Kirk]

So I'm. I'm.

[Mason]

So some fathers are not men and boys. Not men or boys. I'm sorry, some fathers are not male.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, of course they are. I'm not.

[Mason]

Wait, so God the Father's a male.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on. God the Father. So where do we get God the Father from? What? What Greek word?

[Mason]

From your scripture.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, from Abba. Right. Which is a very close personal.

[Mason]

You're not answering my questions, and you're bringing up random language that doesn't matter.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, it actually does.

[Mason]

No, it doesn't.

[Charlie Kirk]

But let me. Let me get down to the root.

[Mason]

Of it, because he's not a man. You know, he's not a man under your worldview, yet you still use his preferred pronouns. You still call him a man. You don't do that with trans people because you're transphobic. That's why.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, got it. But Christ is a man. I'm happy to get into the sexuality.

[Mason]

And before incarnation, he's not the Trinity.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay?

[Mason]

Before incarnation, there's no penis. There's no XY chromosomes. There's no small game.

[Charlie Kirk]

Wait a second. Let's think about it. If that's correct, how is it then? Jacob saw the face of God.

[Mason]

Okay, so if there's a.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on. If there was not before the incarnation, how did Jacob see the face of God? How did Jacob wrestle with God?

[Mason]

Characters can have faces without biology.

[Charlie Kirk]

How did Jacob wrestle with God?

[Mason]

So. So, okay, do you think that he has a body?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, that's.

[Mason]

Or was that a figurative notion of wrestle?

[Charlie Kirk]

That's a mystery of the Scriptures. I'm not here. Well, it is. I'm not here to debate theology. Can we go back to what we're.

[Mason]

Talking about, does he actually have biology? You keep trying to pivot because you know this debunks you. What biology does your God have?

[Charlie Kirk]

What by? Well, the one of Christ our Lord.

[Mason]

No, I meant before incarnation.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, to be honest, I don't quite know and I don't know the Scriptures.

[Mason]

You don't know what a man is? Well, there can't define what a man is.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's a little opaque. Again, you're looking at a man.

[Mason]

But your video, the largest video on TikTok is what is a woman? 20 million views. You don't know what a man is in your own world.

[Charlie Kirk]

You said you're looking at a man, right?

[Mason]

Wait, but the Father doesn't meet that criteria.

[Charlie Kirk]

Am I looking at. Yes, you are. Okay, good.

[Mason]

Just make a man. That's debating you in a debate right now.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's fine. So let me ask you a question, though. So do you think that anybody can become a woman?

[Mason]

I think that anyone who meets my criteria is a woman.

[Charlie Kirk]

What's your criteria again?

[Mason]

Adult human person that has a desire to be in accordance with a particular set of social and cultural norms that are typically associated with female sex.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can society ever be wrong?

[Mason]

Sure. But like, it's a. It's a desire to be in accordance with a set of social.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I become black. If I were blackface.

[Mason]

No, because it's not a desire that you have to be in accordance with a particular set of society.

[Charlie Kirk]

What if somebody norms to be black.

[Mason]

Because race is defined phenotypically based upon the expression to other people, but you're.

[Charlie Kirk]

By some standard, you're judging that.

[Mason]

Do you think there's a phenotypical expression of someone who's white and someone who's black? Like, I see. You're white because of your phenotypical expression.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right? So. But do you think. But Rachel Dolezal, that said, she is black and culturally black. Is she black.

[Mason]

Does she have phenotypically characteristics we would associate with.

[Charlie Kirk]

Define phenotypical. I'm not sure what that word means.

[Mason]

It's going to be like the expression.

[Charlie Kirk]

So melanin content.

[Mason]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so she could pass as a black person.

[Mason]

Wait, so she doesn't have the melanin content?

[Charlie Kirk]

She's borderline. No, heavily.

[Mason]

Okay, so then she's not black.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so you're able to say who is black and not black.

[Mason]

That's how we define it in society. No.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, got it. So, but is there an objective definition of who is black?

[Mason]

Wait, language is all subjective. Linguistics professionals indicate it's subjective.

[Charlie Kirk]

Language is all subjective.

[Mason]

Yes, absolutely. Every word you just used was created by other human beings that are engaging in conversation. You might think it's created by God, but even then it's still subjective.

[Charlie Kirk]

But now we're getting somewhere.

[Mason]

God's a subject.

[Charlie Kirk]

Now we're getting somewhere. Is the word and the value behind murder objective or subjective?

[Mason]

Well, I think morality is subjective. But you think it's subjective too because it comes from God.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's interesting.

[Mason]

Wait, does it come from God or independent of God?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, no, of course it comes from God.

[Mason]

It's transaction that's subjective. Yes, it is. If it comes from God, it's specifically subjective. It comes independent of God, then it's objective. What you just told me is God is compatible with moral anti realism.

[Charlie Kirk]

So let's go back to the Ten Commandments.

[Mason]

You don't understand meta ethics.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, hold on a second.

[Mason]

What does subjective morality means?

[Charlie Kirk]

What does it mean? Subjective morality means that it comes in everybody's own opinion, their own form, their own.

[Mason]

Not dependent upon a stance. Again, God is a stance and that's the truth of morality.

[Charlie Kirk]

So if let's, let's, let's believe. Do you believe in the. If everybody believed in the concept of God, the transcendent God, that there was a Ten Commandments and we should live by them. Right. Is that objective morality?

[Mason]

No. Just because people agree to then make it objective, then what again, independent of a stance. Agreeance is not independent of a stance.

[Charlie Kirk]

What is objective morality then? Sorry. Thanks. We'll be back at it next time. Mason, how are you? Nice to meet you.

[Mason]

Okay, so I think it's a little scummy that you're plagiarizing the whole Matt Walsh thing. Like your thing is the worship of Israel.

[Charlie Kirk]

I pay him royalties. Okay, for sure.

[Mason]

Well, do you want to talk about.

[Charlie Kirk]

Sex first or do you want to talk about gender? I don't think gender exists. I think it's a. It's a. It's a term that John Money and Judith Butler created over the last 40 years. That basically is a filler for personality. Okay, well, if we're talking about sex.

[Mason]

Which it seems like you're saying is.

[Charlie Kirk]

The exact same thing, would you say.

[Mason]

Sex is binary by definition?

[Charlie Kirk]

For sure? Yes, absolutely. Okay, so you're already correct. Like sex is not binary, it's bimodal.

[Mason]

So if we look at a distribution graph, we're going to see people in two camps majority of the time, but there are going to be externalities on both ends of the spectrum.

[Charlie Kirk]

And in the middle for example, so we already.

[Mason]

Yeah, we already talked about intersects.

[Charlie Kirk]

However, with intersects though, they are mutations of a binary, correct? No, we're, we're talking about. Hold on, but we're talking about an entire spectrum.

[Mason]

You're by definition defeat your expression of what a binary is by saying that there are externalities.

[Charlie Kirk]

But, but let me ask you a question that like xxy, you're trying to.

[Mason]

Create this one box and then use any examples that are outside of that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Box you brought up to justify that box. Again, you brought up intersex. We're talking about reality. You brought up intersex. Okay, what sex organs? Which one is more dominant? What do you mean in an XXY situation. Can you explain your, your point of view? Yeah, I mean obviously you have no more female characteristics and male characteristics and an xxy. Or it might be yyx, one of the. One of the two. The point is that you do not have both.

[Mason]

We could see people with female reproductive organs that have XY and we can.

[Charlie Kirk]

See the vice versa, people with male.

[Mason]

Reproductive organs that have xx.

[Charlie Kirk]

So I think you said something about gender though. I think that's more interesting to get into. Do you understand how the conversation.

[Mason]

So we're moving off of sex because you're seeding that argument?

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I'm not seeding it. You want to keep going into it? We can if you'd like. Okay, so besides male and female, what categories are exist? We, we have people that are intersex.

[Mason]

We have people that are on the.

[Charlie Kirk]

Other ends of the bimodal distribution graph.

[Mason]

Are you, are you aware what bimodal means versus binary?

[Charlie Kirk]

Somewhat of an understanding. Okay, well, so you can be presented.

[Mason]

With a graph after this by the people that you brought with you.

[Charlie Kirk]

But it's, it's actually a bi modal distribution. So just like constantly going to condescending type talk is not going to be fruitful. I'm just trying to match your energy with the people that you treated that.

[Mason]

Were trying to have a conversation.

[Charlie Kirk]

So trans women are not women. Do you agree with that?

[Mason]

I would say that trans women are women because people that exist under the category of women, people that exist under the category of men are still humans.

[Charlie Kirk]

Got it. So that category, how is that defined? Well, I went limited to things like.

[Mason]

Genitals or things like chromosomes, which it seems like you want to do. What type of genitals would you say I have?

[Charlie Kirk]

Since, I don't know, I'm not obsessive genitals. But I could do a blood sampling right now and I could see exactly what you are, because every single one of your trillions of cells are either coated with XX or xy, no matter how much surgery or whatever I think that you are, man. But you could fool me. You could take hormones. You could play camouflage. Like, I could fool you to be Hispanic if I had the right Hollywood makeup director. That doesn't mean that you are the thing, though. But.

[Mason]

But you're going from an objective biological perspective, which we've already talked about with sex. I'm talking about a social construct or a social utility.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. So.

[Mason]

So, like, if we were at a restaurant, right?

[Charlie Kirk]

I think you're a man, and I'm.

[Mason]

Sitting down at the table and you're telling the waiter, hey, I want to go sit with blank.

[Charlie Kirk]

What would you use with you.

[Mason]

He doesn't know my name.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, well, I'm sitting over there. That guy. Yeah. Yes. Correct.

[Mason]

That guy. You're going to typically use he or him.

[Charlie Kirk]

Or you're going to say that guy.

[Mason]

Like you just said.

[Charlie Kirk]

Correct.

[Mason]

Because you're ascribing the male gender to me based on my.

[Charlie Kirk]

I say I could be an error. Maybe you are a biological woman, and then you'd correct yourself.

[Mason]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

That take. Maybe, maybe, maybe not. So that's what we.

[Mason]

That is exactly what we're trying to say.

[Charlie Kirk]

So the question is that do you think that womanhood can then be assumed just through costume design? It's not costume design. What is it then?

[Mason]

It's performative, social characteristic.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you could actually. That's what gender is. Okay, great job. So it's like a theater troupe. It's not a theater troupe. So these are social. Womanhood can be appropriated.

[Mason]

No, they're categories.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's what it is. So there's nothing inherent about the chromosomes? There's nothing that.

[Mason]

Correct.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes. Wow. We disagree. So there's nothing inherent about having a period or being able to give birth or the specific hormonal makeup.

[Mason]

Different cultures, we've ascribed that to womanhood. If you go back to other cultures spanning thousands of years, you'll see a difference.

[Charlie Kirk]

When, you know, like, for example, the Mayans had plenty of people that were schizophrenic. Right. So that means nothing to me. Right. Okay.

[Mason]

So we have people that say they're hearing things from God.

[Charlie Kirk]

Would you say that's schizophrenic? Well, not necessarily. It built Western civilization and common law and due process and individual rights.

[Mason]

I just wanted to hear that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Your priority defense of the unborn and the greatest civilization ever. You know, that voice from God happened to build the greatest nation ever to exist in the history of the world. That's fine.

[Mason]

I think the Mayans would say the same thing. That's the problem with presuppositional arguments is that you could say anything.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can we go visit?

[Mason]

I mean, God's telling me right now you're a fish.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you think that's real? We go visit the Mayan nation. They didn't last that long, did they?

[Mason]

Yeah, over killing and violence. And you can justify that if you like.

[Charlie Kirk]

You mean all the child sacrifices and.

[Mason]

This is the kind of singing tone that's why I'm trying to match it, is because.

[Charlie Kirk]

You mean all the child sacrifice the Aztecs, Mayans and Incans did on the top of temples. Great civilization.

[Mason]

You want to go back into the Old Testament? Let's bring Parker up in here, talk about all the child.

[Charlie Kirk]

Child marriage, and we can talk about.

[Mason]

The justification of rape.

[Charlie Kirk]

Where was child sacrifice ever in the Bible when Isaac or Isaac was almost sacrificed by his dad? He wasn't, though, because at the beginning of Genesis, so God just said like.

[Mason]

Nah, just kidding, dog, don't actually.

[Charlie Kirk]

Because at the beginning of Genesis 16 said, I'm going to test to prove obedience. Yes, that's right. So now you know it. So actually that we know there was no child sacrifice in the Bible. It was a prohibition on child sacrifice. But anyway, that's a little bit of a rabbit hole. Do you understand, at least? Can you sympathize with our perspective? Okay, that. That.

[Mason]

I'll calm it down a little bit.

[Charlie Kirk]

I apologize for the context. No, it's fine. I mean, but you're doing. It's. It's fine. But did you see where this could get wildly out of control, at least on the. I don't see how it would get out of control. Because even in sports, for example, you think that there's no. There's no. So this is.

[Mason]

This is something that we might be able to agree upon. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Sports were not archaeologically dug up. Right.

[Mason]

The rules of sports, they are things that we've created as a society. We have decided as a society, the most fair categorization is male sports and female sports. Now, as we've been able to understand or at least bring into the forefront people who don't identify with the binary. We still have to allow all people that are women in the women's category and all men that are men in the women's category. That includes CIS and trans.

[Charlie Kirk]

If you'd like to change that category.

[Mason]

Because you think it's unfair, we can do that.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's what's awesome about arbitrary rules, is.

[Mason]

We can decide hormones.

[Charlie Kirk]

I might not know this, but, like, when the Greeks started the Olympics 2000 years ago, did they have, like, a bunch of dudes wrestling with women?

[Mason]

I don't even think they allowed women to compete.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, I might be wrong on that, but that kind of proves the point, though, that there was a.

[Mason]

And what did we do to allow women.

[Charlie Kirk]

We changed the rules, right? No, but that by definition, therefore, there is something from body composition, bone mass, lung density, testosterone and estrogen rates. Endocrinology is if you. If you'd say the majority of males in the bimodal distribution graph.

[Mason]

We're going back to that. You can say, hey, we want this level of hormones in this particular category.

[Charlie Kirk]

And we can separate it by hormones. I agree with you that a majority.

[Mason]

Of men are jordy.

[Charlie Kirk]

Of men, you got to be, like, 99.9%. I don't know.

[Mason]

Ronda Rousey could kick my ass. I will say that.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, for sure. But I mean. But could she kick Conor McGregor's ass? Well, now we're talking about the peaks, right? She's at the peak cisgender. No, because you're talking about the peaks of two different categories in the same sort of. Right, Because. Because why?

[Mason]

She's a CIS woman.

[Charlie Kirk]

She's a CIS woman and she's a CIS man. But. Yes. And you could kick her tail, right?

[Mason]

Yes, I would agree.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, for sure. Right.

[Mason]

Because CIS men and CIS women have different hormone levels. If you want to change the hormones, we can change the categorization. But you're saying that you want men and women, bar none, and you say that's the most, like, well, fair category.

[Charlie Kirk]

Then we have to allow all women. But again, it's there. Those things don't. So I just want to be clear, so. Because I think I'm tracking your argument is that in the University of Pennsylvania swim team when Thomas swam against biological women, that was. You're perfectly fine with that? I think.

[Mason]

As long as we have the category that way.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thanks. Good to meet you. Yeah, I want to get him in. This isn't debated yet. No, no, no. You're fine. You're fine, you're fine.

[Juliana]

You're.

[Charlie Kirk]

What's your name?

[Juliana]

Hi, my name is Preeti. Nice to meet you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Brittany. Nice to meet you.

[Juliana]

Go ahead, Preeti. Preeti. T, R, E. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're totally. Yeah. Okay. So I kind of want to go back to. A little earlier you said that Parker has lower T than You So would you say joke? Yeah, yeah, no, no, no. I'm fully, I'm fully aware it's a joke, but I guess, like, on that, on that point, do you think that like, t has to do or testosterone has to do with your manhood?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, yes and no. I mean, for. If you are looking at typical testosterone estrogen rates of women, they are far different than those of men, but.

[Juliana]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, like, your testosterone rate goes down when you have children, when you're a man, that doesn't make you less of a man. They go down by 400 points.

[Juliana]

Okay, but like when we were talking earlier about like sports, right? And you were saying that the reason why it's unfair for like, like, for example, a trans woman who used to be a man to be like competing in women's sports. You said they cited that they have.

[Charlie Kirk]

Higher testosterone levels, one of about 50 characteristics. Also long distance density, the men's hearts are bigger. We have greater bone, bone, bone density, muscle mass, tend to be faster, tend to be stronger.

[Juliana]

I understand, but like those factors all come from the hormones during the development process, correct?

[Charlie Kirk]

No, not necessarily. No.

[Juliana]

I mean, most of them do.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, not all of them. So for example, you could try to pump a young girl's body with testosterone at 8 years old and you can get them stronger. You cannot necessarily get them on par with a biological male at puberty. You cannot. You could try. Okay, but like, because there's something in the coding of our genetics, the coding.

[Juliana]

Of our genetics, which is often like, controlled by like different, like, I guess, parts of our DNA and also the hormones that are produced that affect the, the effect of coding more than endocrinology.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's a big part because, for example, if you just give a kid testosterone that doesn't even get them close to becoming a male, or estrogen giving them a female.

[Juliana]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

They might get characteristics that are close to that.

[Juliana]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, but it does it, for example.

[Juliana]

But I mean, like, there's no perfect image of like, this is what a female looks, like this is what a male. But like, we all get our periods at different ages, some of us like. And also, like, for example, like, there are many circumstances where womanhood is just not one thing. Right. It's a multitude of experiences for every single.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can you define what womanhood is? That's an interesting question for you.

[Juliana]

Well, no, I can't define what womanhood is. And the reason why is because it's something that's an individual experience for every single person. Right. Like my experiences, what I have experienced throughout My life is not going to be the same as another woman who may have like grown up in a different environment.

[Charlie Kirk]

Disagreement, but not clarity. I say that being a woman or womanhood is an objective thing.

[Juliana]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

But we are objective outside of one owns opinions or experiences.

[Juliana]

So. But are we at the point where we're discussing where this is like not something based on your chromosomes, but something maybe based on a construct?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, no. It also can be objective, witnessed in empirical ways, in biological ways, in scientific ways.

[Juliana]

Okay, so to clarify, we're still discussing whether womanhood is on chromosomes or not.

[Charlie Kirk]

If you'd like to discuss that. It's deeper than just chromosomes.

[Juliana]

Right? Right. I'm just trying to define exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

For example, if we look at spect scans or brain scans of men and women, 98% of the time, artificial intelligence can tell you which one is the men and which one is the male. The female.

[Juliana]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

So our different parts of our brains fire. So for, for men. For men, for example, our amygdala's are not as high working as women. You know what amygdala is the threat assessment partner.

[Juliana]

So obviously like your birth. So there is a difference between the concept of what sex is, which is a biological aspect, and what gender is, which is a social construct.

[Charlie Kirk]

I reject gender completely as a different word. It's really personality.

[Juliana]

So that's where the debate is, the existence of gender.

[Charlie Kirk]

Gender means personality.

[Juliana]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

I don't doubt that. Biological men, my feminine.

[Juliana]

How would you define race on that point?

[Charlie Kirk]

How would I define race?

[Juliana]

How would you define race?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, race is a very difficult topic.

[Juliana]

Okay. Because I think that it's a really important thing to discuss when it comes to.

[Charlie Kirk]

If I draw, if I draw blood.

[Juliana]

Is it ethnic lines?

[Charlie Kirk]

If you have a blood sample of a black individual and a white individual, I can't tell you which one is which. If I have a blood sample of a man and a woman, I can tell you which one is which just by running very simple elementary blood tests. So for example, if there was a Hispanic or a white, there is no difference in why genetic coding. There just isn't.

[Juliana]

Why is it important that someone's. Oh my.

[Mason]

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[Charlie Kirk]

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[Charlie Kirk]

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[Juliana]

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[Mason]

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[Charlie Kirk]

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[Juliana]

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[Charlie Kirk]

My next claim is that Kamala Harris is a DEI candidate. A lot of competition, Mason. Yeah, exactly. Good to see you.

[Mason]

Good to see you again.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can I define what a DEI candidate is?

[Mason]

I think that you're going to say because she's black and she's a woman, she's appointed because Joe Biden promised that. And it's not a testament to her.

[Charlie Kirk]

Not only that, but also in the her getting the nomination, the Democrat Party, they said repeatedly, we do not want to pass over a black female. Okay, so just those two things. But the first one is stronger. You're right. Joe Biden said, I'm going to put on my vice presidency a black female.

[Mason]

Right, Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

So his criteria kept. Yeah. And that was like Karen Bass and Kamala Harris. So she was not chosen because of her intellect or her accomplishments or because of any of that. It was because she happened to fit a couple boxes. In fact, Amy Klobuchar, the vetting at the time was that Amy Klobuchar would have been a better VP and Kamala ended up getting it. So it's just a statement of fact that she is there not because of her brilliance or accomplishments, but because of her ethnicity.

[Mason]

So Kamala Harris, first and foremost, there are a lot of criticisms that you can give to her on why she wouldn't be an effective president. It shouldn't be because she's a woman.

[Charlie Kirk]

Or because she's black. And it seems to be that you're saying that. No, I'm just, I just want people to understand and agree. She didn't earn this. She, she absolutely did. She has, she has a career where she's been not only a dea. DEI stands for one of the biggest Earn it, just so we're clear. But like, it stands for diversity, equity, inclusion. I like the meme, though. I, I, I'm, I'm, I, I know what it is. But do you at least admit and Acknowledge that when Joe Biden was searching for a vp, he cared more about skin color and a female than the smartest, best person. So the.

[Mason]

The whole conversation with this affirmative action with dei, the whole reason why people bring it in is to make this imaginary scenario that there's a super qualified white man who was overpassed by this unqualified, stupid idiot.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on.

[Mason]

Person of color.

[Charlie Kirk]

His own. Which is such a terrible analogy because it's not true. His own team. It's absolutely not true. That's not what it is. Joe Biden did not say, I'm going.

[Mason]

To choose an unqualified person.

[Charlie Kirk]

And just a bit his own team.

[Mason]

Saying that I'm going to have two qualified people. If one comes from a different experience, it might be better to have a.

[Charlie Kirk]

Diversity and have a better perception. He said at the South Carolina, these are that I will pick a black woman as my vice president. Secondly, Amy Klobuchar came out. Is this a random black woman that he plucked off the street, or is this a qualified DEA general attorney who's.

[Mason]

Had a decorated career leading government positions?

[Charlie Kirk]

But you can.

[Mason]

But you keep rambling about things that just aren't relevant to what we're talking about.

[Charlie Kirk]

It is relevant. AB Klobuchar in vetting came across as the more qualified candidate. Why? Because they said Kamala Harris wasn't very smart, wasn't very bright. That's their own vetting documents from the denim.

[Mason]

Who?

[Charlie Kirk]

Joe Biden's own vetting documents.

[Mason]

So why would he go against that?

[Charlie Kirk]

Because the base of the Democrat Party demands tribal politics and DEI politics over competency. That's completely inaccurate. He stated, Jim Clyburn said, I will only endorse you in the South Carolina primary if you say that you're going to put a black person, preferably a black female, on your ticket with you. Therefore, you winnow the entire universe down and say, I'm only going to choose from this criteria. And let's just think more broadly. If you're about to have heart surgery, would you rather have a heart surgeon that's good and excellent, knows what he's doing or someone that is a black female?

[Mason]

So.

[Charlie Kirk]

And being president is more important than being a heart surgeon.

[Mason]

Aren't you on record saying that you'd be terrified if there was a black pilot?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, let's fly. I did say that, but why? What was the full quote?

[Mason]

I personally, I don't know if you want to expand on that.

[Juliana]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

So this ties into this. United Airlines said that half of all their new hirees are going to be black or women. And that standards and pursuit of excellence is not going to be taken as seriously as diversity. When I'm flying a plane, I want to know my pilot is there because they're a good pilot, not because they fit some DEI box. Damn it.

[Mason]

I wish we could have a better conversation.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm sorry, man. Fast man.

[Mason]

Okay, so let's say that Kamala Harris was a DEI hire as vice president. Do you think she's also a DEI hire as the presidential nominee for the Democratic Party?

[Charlie Kirk]

Potentially. I mean, they decided to go to her almost immediately because she is the vp, but also because she fits some criteria. Boxes. But let me ask you, you don't.

[Mason]

Think it's because Joe Biden nominated or. No, for sure.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's part of it. Of course it is. But let me ask you, what's her greatest achievement, accomplishment?

[Mason]

Her greatest achievement or accomplishment? I'd say her greatest achievement or accomplishment is completely destroying the Republican party within, like, two weeks of being nominated, like, in the polls. She's just absolutely.

[Charlie Kirk]

Huh. Sorry. How are you? Nice to see you. What's your name?

[Juliana]

Amanda.

[Charlie Kirk]

Amanda.

[Juliana]

So you believe because Kamala is black and a woman she was chosen for.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's not my own belief. Her own team. Joe Biden said that. He said I chose that. Yeah. He said, I'm first. Because beforehand he said, I'm going to choose a black female for vice president. He didn't say, I'm going to choose the most gifted or the most talented or the most accomplished. He said so. He said, I'm going to choose a black female. And so by definition, that is dei.

[Juliana]

That is not the definition of dei. By him saying that he was going to choose a black, black female, that could insinuate that he already had Kamala in mind for the role. No way does that insinuate that she's dei.

[Charlie Kirk]

What is DEI then? DEI would be choosing somebody based on their race.

[Juliana]

No, it's giving people of color the opportunity to be welcomed into spaces in which they typically aren't able to get into.

[Charlie Kirk]

There's never been a female black vice president.

[Juliana]

And why do you think that is?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, not why you just said that's dei. So by definition, she's dei.

[Juliana]

Okay, so she represents that diversity within the government.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, but you're saying she got elevated because she was a black female.

[Juliana]

If that were the case, I'd be.

[Charlie Kirk]

The president right now. Do you think Kamala Harris was chosen because of her intelligence?

[Juliana]

Her qualifications and her intelligence?

[Charlie Kirk]

Really? Wow. If you compare Kamala, what's Her greatest.

[Juliana]

Accomplishment probably being prosecuted within the Northern.

[Charlie Kirk]

California area, letting out violent criminals and turning San Francisco one of the most murderous, dangerous, arson filled, homeless filled slums in the country.

[Mason]

Wow.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's her greatest accomplishment.

[Juliana]

See, I actually went to UC Berkeley, so I lived there. I don't know if you did.

[Charlie Kirk]

I went around there. Berkeley is a slum.

[Juliana]

Berkeley is a slum. Have you stepped into Berkeley?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, I have. You think Oakland and Berkeley.

[Juliana]

Have you lived in Berkeley? I've lived in Oakland as well.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're basing your think the Bay Area is like a good area in this country?

[Juliana]

I'm from Vegas, so I'm not from the Bay. Born and raised in Vegas and went to UC Berkeley, just graduated this year. What you're saying literally in no way.

[Charlie Kirk]

Shape or make sense. So you think her overseeing San Francisco becoming the laughingstock of the country is.

[Juliana]

San Francisco is not the laughing stock of the country. If anything, that's Florida. No offense, but hold on.

[Charlie Kirk]

If that's the case, why are millions of people moving to Florida and millions of people leaving California?

[Juliana]

Because there are cheaper rates there.

[Charlie Kirk]

People are moving to Las Vegas. Las Vegas has changed the whole. It's cheaper because it's a better run state and we don't use.

[Juliana]

Northern California is not. Northern California is not the entirety of California.

[Charlie Kirk]

Second. But they're Southern California within California. Why is it that so many businesses are leaving San Francisco? If she did such a great job lowering crime?

[Juliana]

Do you know businesses go where things are cheapest to operate?

[Charlie Kirk]

Why are they cheaper? Because they're better run states.

[Juliana]

Do you realize that California is one of the most populated states within the.

[Charlie Kirk]

US So obviously costs are going to be high.

[Juliana]

California, not only that, but land within this state is also very, very, very minimal. So that's.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on. You have tons of land. You're one of the biggest states.

[Juliana]

Yes, it is one of the biggest lands. But do you also take into account the population that's here?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes. And do Florida and Texas have a greater combined population than California? And California has more population and more landmass than Florida. Why is it that San Francisco has a declining population and Miami, Tampa, Orlando have an increasing population? Population.

[Juliana]

What does this have to do with dei?

[Charlie Kirk]

Because she ran San Francisco poorly and she was chosen as a VP because she was a black woman. She didn't run San Francisco, she was the da. DA of San Francisco. So she prosecuted and then she became the AG of California. Where crime went up, homelessness went up, arson went up, kidnapping. She's not the police.

[Juliana]

Isn't that the job of a police to get the criminals.

[Charlie Kirk]

The attorney general of the state is the top cop of the state.

[Juliana]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

And what did she do to lower crime in California?

[Juliana]

She convicted those who were guilty.

[Charlie Kirk]

Why did crime go up?

[Juliana]

Because as the population increases and the economy gets worse.

[Charlie Kirk]

No economy gets worse.

[Juliana]

People are becoming more and more desperate, which leads to path of crime.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thank you.

[Juliana]

Mine will be quick. Mine will be really quick. Okay, so real quick, you're saying that the only reason she was elected was. Is because she's black. So that trumps her being a district attorney and all the other.

[Charlie Kirk]

This is not my words. I'm just going on Joe Biden's own words.

[Juliana]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

Joe Biden said, I'm gonna preset criteria based on black women. And therefore she met that criteria. And that's why she was selected.

[Juliana]

No, why? I think he was. What he was trying to say is. Oh, I'm. She's just black. She was just calling her black. She's not saying I'm doing. He's not saying.

[Charlie Kirk]

He made a public promise.

[Juliana]

He's not saying I'm doing this because she's black. That's not what she said.

[Charlie Kirk]

He made a public promise, but before the selection even began and the process began, I will put a black woman on the ticket.

[Juliana]

So you're saying her being attorney doesn't matter. That's not why. But yet being a failed businessman and making all the comments. Weird comments he's made.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on a second.

[Juliana]

That doesn't have.

[Charlie Kirk]

What I'm getting at, though, is that if she was not a black woman, she never would have been chosen as vice president. Her record was abysmal. She was a terrible Attorney General of California. She had poorly.

[Juliana]

I'm so sorry.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'll be quick. I'll be quick.

[Juliana]

I'm so sorry.

[Charlie Kirk]

She gets the next one.

[Juliana]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

All right.

[Juliana]

Sorry. All right. Yeah. I just have to know, do you think Tim Waltz is a DEI candidate? Okay. I just want to see if you're consistent.

[Charlie Kirk]

DEI does not mean black. Tim Wallace was only chosen because the Democrat Party is doing so poorly with white men that they tried to find a white man that they could put on the ticket. But then, also true, Tim Wallace is the first white DEI candidate in his.

[Juliana]

Okay. In the Democratic primaries, Kamala Harris was performing incredibly well. And she wasn't performing well in the primaries just because she was black. She was performing well in the primaries because during her time as a senator, she spoke incredibly eloquently. And I used to watch.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on a second. How did she do in the Democrat.

[Juliana]

Primaries, she did, like, much better than Amy Klobuchar.

[Charlie Kirk]

She didn't even make it to Iowa. She dropped out months ahead of the first primary. She was super unpopular, not well liked. Her campaign fizzled out. So she was popular initially. Initially, yes. And then the more people learned about her, the more realized she was awful.

[Juliana]

Well, it was mostly because, like, progressives are really upset about her being a da, which, like, can be like. That's a completely different question.

[Charlie Kirk]

Why aren't progressives upset about that now?

[Juliana]

I mean, they are, but.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, they are. That's news to me. But everyone's talking about how great a prosecutor is.

[Juliana]

Progressives are definitely upset about the, like, how, like, the Biden administration has handled, like, the atrocities in Gaza and how, like, there are definitely things that Democrats are upset. Upset about. However, that's not the point of this conversation.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's correct. That is not the point.

[Juliana]

That's not the point. What the point is is that a lot of. Oh, thanks, guys. Okay. Hi, how you doing?

[Charlie Kirk]

Great.

[Juliana]

So you keep saying that Kamala Harris is a DAI candidate. And I feel like my main fallacy with this argument is that competency can't be objectively determined because we all have subjective definitions of what a competent politician is. But my question for you is, if Kamala Harris is a DEI candidate, why is she beating Trump in the polls right now?

[Charlie Kirk]

We'll see what happens in November.

[Juliana]

Okay, but she's currently beating Trump in the polls.

[Charlie Kirk]

So either if the polls are right.

[Juliana]

I grant you that he's incompetent, or.

[Charlie Kirk]

Maybe she's a new candidate with a big surge.

[Juliana]

She's doing good.

[Charlie Kirk]

I would caution you being a little like this point in the election, getting too cocky because we remember what happened.

[Juliana]

I'm not getting cocky. I'm asking you to answer a question. If she is incompetent, how could she beat the president, who you said is an amazing.

[Charlie Kirk]

As of the timing of this filming, can you name to me how many times she sat down for an interview?

[Juliana]

What?

[Charlie Kirk]

She refuses to talk to the press, refuses to take questions. She's done not one sit down interview in nearly 25 days at the filming of this interview.

[Juliana]

Mind you, I think that is a very weird point to make. Why would I count how many times Kamala Harris has had an interview?

[Charlie Kirk]

Because she refuses to take questions from the press and media. Like, shouldn't you do that if you're the sitting vice president?

[Juliana]

She's.

[Mason]

How many times?

[Charlie Kirk]

He actually did three last Sunday and one today with Meet the Press.

[Juliana]

So the quality, the qualification of a good president is to take an interview.

[Charlie Kirk]

If you can't take a single question. But let me ask you this, because it's on. You can. What's her greatest accomplishment as vice president?

[Juliana]

As vice president? Being the first female all black president. We've never had that.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, no, no. Like, I got that. But, like, what. What's her accomplishment that made people's lives better?

[Juliana]

I don't know. Vice presidents don't really do much, to be honest.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can you name one thing she's done that's good?

[Juliana]

No, probably not. Thank you. The Inflation Reduction Act.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, really? Did that lower inflation? What's your name? Brad.

[Mason]

Brad Brady.

[Charlie Kirk]

Nice to meet you.

[Mason]

I like the idea. 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off. I think the best thing I could.

[Charlie Kirk]

Say about this is you have your.

[Mason]

Opinion and I can have mine. You believe that Donald Trump was a good president. I maybe don't believe that.

[Charlie Kirk]

You believe that Kamala Harris is a DEI candidate for the position of president.

[Mason]

I don't believe that. What I'm getting to is what? What do you gain from this? If I concede and say that Kamala Harris is the DEI candidate, what do you gain? Because I know what it is. You're baiting us into rage so that you can make money on your TikTok account.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're baiting college students all over the.

[Mason]

World into arguing with you over these fallacies. You throw a red herring out there.

[Charlie Kirk]

And you're making money from this account. Well, we're sitting here and looking stupid. First of all, I don't control this account. I'm a guest here. This is Jubilee Media, and they're going to edit it how they see fit. Okay? Number one. Number two, it needs to be acknowledged that she didn't earn it. She didn't win a Democrat primary. She dropped out in the Democrat primary in 2020. She's never been likable. She's got there simply because of race, not because of competency, not because she's good at her job. And I think that's wrong and needs to be called out.

[Mason]

You're bringing up qualitative examples. These are all subjective, qualitative examples. Her race, her competency, her dropping out of the election. That's not what you said earlier.

[Juliana]

This is.

[Mason]

I'm talking about the poor. You've just brought up multiple qualitative points. And these points can be believed by you and not by me as you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Believe in a God and I don't. These are qualitative arguments that you're making. Against me for this.

[Mason]

And I can believe differently than you.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I think we can agree to.

[Mason]

Disagree on this one. Okay, fine. Perfect.

[Charlie Kirk]

I think it's going to take the entire time.

[Mason]

You're welcome.

[Charlie Kirk]

30 on, 30 off.

[Mason]

How do you feel about the Senate.

[Charlie Kirk]

As far as her tie breaking vote of the Senate?

[Mason]

No, no, no, I'm just saying like Senate, like the Senate is technically DEI in a certain sense for like small states like Wyoming gets. People in Wyoming get a greater vote.

[Charlie Kirk]

Than me in California, like Rhode island and Hawaii.

[Mason]

I'm giving you an example. California, I get less of a vote than someone who exists in Wyoming. So we're giving people in Wyoming more say than they necessarily should given that they're one individual. So why do you believe in DEI as it relates to how our government is set up? We don't believe in DEI in terms of allowing for people who are black or who are women to be in positions of power that they have not been allowed in, historically speaking.

[Charlie Kirk]

So is the electoral college and the Senate based on race?

[Mason]

It's predicated off of diversity, equity and inclusion. Right. Like inclusion of country areas, inclusion of rural areas, inclusion of white men like you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so you mean like Hawaii?

[Mason]

I'm referencing, I'm referencing, you could say smaller states or places that have less people in it so obviously would be able to have more of a say per individual.

[Charlie Kirk]

So your argument is that the US Senate is a dei? I can be honest, I've never heard that argument, but I think it's a little silly.

[Mason]

But how is it silly? Argue against it instead of just saying it's silly.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, right, so it's silly on its face. Because first of all we have on the House, Representatives is proportional to population.

[Mason]

Oh, but the Senate isn't. So it's dei.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's not dei.

[Mason]

Yes, it is.

[Charlie Kirk]

Why would you say it's diversity, equity, inclusions. Because Wyoming gets two Senators. They're their own.

[Mason]

Diversity for country areas, for rural areas, equity for rural areas. That's not right for smaller states.

[Charlie Kirk]

So let's go back to the Federalist Papers and the founding fathers. Why was the Senate composed?

[Mason]

Tell me why it's not dei like under your definition, why is it not based on race?

[Charlie Kirk]

And by the way, it doesn't have to be. It's not based on equity and it's not based on inclusion.

[Mason]

Can you have upon different characteristics other than race?

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me finish.

[Mason]

Whether or not you're a woman.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me.

[Mason]

Whether or not.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me finish. Why? It's because we are a collection of states. We are not a federal project. So states rights usurp federal. Do you know what the 17th amendment is?

[Mason]

Do you know why the Articles of Confederation failed?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, but what is the 10th Amendment?

[Mason]

Because states had too many rights, had too much power.

[Charlie Kirk]

What is the 10th Amendment?

[Mason]

That's why we specifically adopted the Constitution.

[Charlie Kirk]

Parker, let me make one point, okay? Which is how did we used to elect senators?

[Mason]

It'd be population.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, we used to elect senators based on state legislatures. So the Senate is an extension of the state legislative bodies. That's not dei, that's federalism. That's the way that our system is.

[Mason]

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

[Charlie Kirk]

Which is a bottom up citizen led government to allow the states which are first and foremost sovereign. So it goes in this ladder in this country.

[Mason]

It's still DEI for the states, citizens for those country areas.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, because it's colorblind. It's not that.

[Mason]

Oh, it's again, DEI is not only based upon race.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on a second.

[Mason]

Diversity for country, diversity for rural, equity for rural. And inclusion of rural.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's an interesting point. So diversity.

[Mason]

You think DEI is only race because you associate it with Kamala Harris.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me ask you a question. Is there a single instance in corporate America where DEI is implemented where diversity means anything other than skin color? Diversity.

[Mason]

So diversity.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's not a viewpoint.

[Mason]

Women. Women, Fine.

[Charlie Kirk]

How about chromosome or diversity or skin color?

[Mason]

So skin color, there's gender. You have to move the goalpost a little bit because you got destroyed there. All right, but there's also.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I'm just asking a very simple question. The answer is no, because our system doesn't mean.

[Mason]

That's not dei.

[Charlie Kirk]

Senate is dei.

[Mason]

What was your definition though?

[Charlie Kirk]

What is.

[Mason]

What was your definition? Diversity, equity, inclusion. Diversity doesn't only apply to race. You're just saying other people defined diversity, equity, inclusion to be based on race.

[Charlie Kirk]

You didn't let me finish. Because you're saying you didn't earn it. You know who did earn it? South Dakota, North Dakota, when they charted.

[Mason]

Themselves into Wyoming, didn't earn it because.

[Charlie Kirk]

They have less of a population to estate. Hold on.

[Mason]

Now. Choose someone from the circle to debate again for another 10 minutes. But based on a claim of their.

[Charlie Kirk]

Choice, who really wants to go? I don't want to pick on. I don't want to pick on somebody who doesn't want to get picked on. Okay, you want to debate whatever you want. So you're the affirmative on the negative.

[Juliana]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're good with 10 minutes. I don't want to put you in a spot you don't want to be in.

[Juliana]

No, no, no. Let's do it.

[Mason]

That's fun.

[Charlie Kirk]

You sure? Okay. Amazon One Medical presents Painful Thoughts.

[Juliana]

I've been on hold to make a doctor's appointment for 23 minutes now. The automated voice has told me 47 times that my call is very important. Important to them. Hmm. I'm starting to think that they don't think my call is important at all.

[Charlie Kirk]

With Amazon One Medical 24. 7 Virtual Care, you'll get help fast without having to remain on the line to make an appointment. Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.

[Juliana]

You know that one friend who somehow knows everything about money?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Juliana]

Now imagine they live in your phone. Say hey to experience your big financial friend.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's the app that helps you check.

[Juliana]

Your FICO score, find ways to save, and basically feel like a financial genius.

[Charlie Kirk]

And guess what?

[Juliana]

It's totally free. So go on, download the Experian app. Trust me, having a BFF like this is a total game changer. Okay, I guess the claim I'm making is that affirmative action is constitutional.

[Charlie Kirk]

Tell me about your claim.

[Juliana]

I wanted to talk about affirmative action because we haven't really gotten to it and it's recently been revoked based on the new Supreme Court ruling. And I firmly believe that affirmative action is constitutional and is a right that certain American citizens deserve. And I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, the 14th Amendment allows for equal protection regardless of race. And it's a colorblind amendment. And the whole idea of affirmative action is to try to give people extra boost based on their skin color or their racial background, which by definition cuts underneath the idea of equal protection.

[Juliana]

Okay, so do you know why the 14th amendment was founded and the Equal Protection and Equal Rights act?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, the 14th Amendment was a post Civil War amendment. 14, 15, 16, 17 were all during Reconstruction.

[Juliana]

So what was it in response to?

[Charlie Kirk]

Slavery.

[Juliana]

Oh, and who were slaves?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, that's an important point. So do you think affirmative action will help heal the multi generational problems of slavery?

[Juliana]

I do. I really do, because. So let's just talk about the history for a second. Slavery begins in the early 1800s.

[Charlie Kirk]

Earlier. No, slavery.

[Juliana]

1816 is the beginning of slavery.

[Charlie Kirk]

1619.

[Juliana]

Oh, yeah, I guess it will be. Okay, first slaves come in 1619 doesn't end until 1800s, 1880s. Then we go into Jim Crow laws starting in 1877, and black people are not given equal rights until officially 1965. Would you agree with that?

[Charlie Kirk]

That's generally the Correct. Telling.

[Juliana]

Yeah. So, you know, 1960s, 1970s.

[Charlie Kirk]

But just so we're clear that black Americans were able to serve in office in the early 1900s. They were able to vote throughout the 1900s. But yes, there were poll taxes, there was Jim Crow laws, there was segregation. Of course there was. And we get to be original not to acknowledge those things.

[Juliana]

Okay, so we can acknowledge all of those things. Can we also acknowledge, due to the laws under Jim Crow that black people were significantly hindered from economic advancement?

[Charlie Kirk]

This is a really important question. The data shows. Not really. It was evil. It was terrible. But black Americans are poorer today in 2024 than they were in the 1950s.

[Juliana]

Yes. Why do you think that is?

[Charlie Kirk]

Good question. So we have the Civil Rights act, we have more benefits, more government programs. Something changed between the 1950s and 2024. So there's two answers to this question. Either America got more racist since 1950s to 2024. So like that 70 year period because black Americans are worse off today per capita.

[Juliana]

Yeah, I would agree with that.

[Charlie Kirk]

You agree with that? Okay, good. Than in the 1950s. Or there's another explanation. And I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, which is I think you would acknowledge that the disappearance of the black father has been the number one driver of black poverty in this country. Now, there are reasons for that that we could.

[Juliana]

What do you think the reasons for that are?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, culture is one, would you agree?

[Juliana]

So actually, let's go back to the.

[Charlie Kirk]

Foundation school, to prison, pipeline, all that stuff. But do you at least. Can we at least agree that black dads not being around is a bad thing?

[Juliana]

Anyone's father not being around is a bad thing?

[Charlie Kirk]

No, of course, but 75% of black youth are not raised with a father in law home. It's the highest of any group in the country. It used to be 25% in the 1950s. So it's gone up dramatically in 70 years.

[Juliana]

Okay, so you are blaming the fact that black people have not been able to achieve economic equality and advancement in this country. They've had decreases, specifically and solely because of the absence of black fathers.

[Charlie Kirk]

Not solely. It is the most primary ingredient. Reason.

[Juliana]

So you think it's the absence of black fathers.

[Charlie Kirk]

Correct.

[Juliana]

And you think what else?

[Charlie Kirk]

Public sector teacher unions that have kept these schools crummy and kids aren't reading and teachers keep getting paid and we don't fire bad teachers. That's a big thing.

[Juliana]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

War on police in our inner cities and not having enough police and not actually locking up criminals. Let me hear me out, for example, in Chicago, do you know that only half of all murders go solved in the city of Chicago?

[Juliana]

That doesn't surprise me at all.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's a problem, right?

[Juliana]

That is a problem.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. So we need more police, more detectives to solve those murders. But I want to hear your points, too. I'm talking too much.

[Juliana]

So. So let's go back a little bit to what you said in the issue of policing. Now, starting in the 1980s and continuing onward, there's been a war on drugs. Is this correct?

[Charlie Kirk]

I like the war on drugs.

[Juliana]

You like the war on drugs. So during the war on drugs, it created an epidemic of mass incarceration, specifically.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on. Only if you're using drugs.

[Juliana]

No.

[Charlie Kirk]

Or peddling drugs. If you don't use drugs, then you don't go to jail. Right.

[Juliana]

So you believe that the criminal justice system is flawless.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I've never said flawless. There's a lot of people in jail that shouldn't be in jail. There's a lot of problems in any system.

[Juliana]

Okay, so wait, let's pause on that. So you believe that a lot of people who have gone to jail shouldn't be in jail? A small percent. What percent would you say?

[Charlie Kirk]

5%.

[Juliana]

You would say only 5%.

[Charlie Kirk]

Correct. When you have a system of justice, you're going to have scummy prosecutors, you're going to have bad defense attorneys.

[Juliana]

I have a question. Can I go to Google? What percentage of people currently incarcerated are black? It's way larger.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, it's. Hold on.

[Juliana]

It's what?

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on. No, I know, but the fact. The fact. I'm saying. The fact. I'm saying 5%. Hold on.

[Juliana]

So that's the point that I'm trying to make. Exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

Who am I debate? Am I debating here?

[Juliana]

Pumping drugs?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Juliana]

So, okay, so I want to make a quick.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're right. Black Americans are in prison far greater than a percentage of the population. So the black Americans are about 13 to 14% of the population?

[Juliana]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

About half of all prisoners are black. So blacks commit more crimes than whites. Do they commit more murders? They commit more arsons. They commit more kidnappings. For example, blacks are 13% of the population, and they commit 58% of all the murders. That's not a war on drugs. That's a culture problem.

[Juliana]

Okay, so let's talk about that culture. Black people have been legislatively subjugated up until 1960. I'll give it. I mean, honestly, it's later, but let's just say 1965. You do not think that 10 generations of legislative subjugation and slavery. During that time, 4,000 black men, women and children are lynched as the result of race riots in this country. You do not think that these things have a lasting effect? We have had 10 generations of subjugation and four. Four of legislative.

[Charlie Kirk]

They have an impact, but it's more on you to explain why things got worse since the Civil Rights Act. More violent, less fathers around, poorer. Why is that?

[Juliana]

Because of mass incarceration and the unfair criminalization of black men.

[Charlie Kirk]

But let's just take murders for example. Why are blacks are 13% of the population and commit 58% of the murders? Why is that?

[Juliana]

Because people in affluent and whiter neighborhoods are not being policed at this same rate. There are more police.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm talking about dead bodies. There's no like. We're not talking about policing, we're talking about murders. Why are so many blacks committing murders outside of their population?

[Juliana]

Okay, let's take it back to some history.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm curious for an answer to that question.

[Juliana]

I'm going to give you one. So let's go to redlining. Okay. Redlining.

[Charlie Kirk]

Redlining, yes. Is why so many blacks are killing each other.

[Juliana]

No, let me finish my claim and then you can respond. Is that okay? Okay. So redlining, federally mandated or sustained by the fha. Right. Separating black Americans to specifically impoverished and relegated areas of the country. We are incapable of buying homes and putting equity into neighborhoods with lower crime rates and better educational systems. We do not have access to things that would uplift and help our community. When you are put in an environment that promotes and reinforces social and economic inequality, you become desperate and are forced to do things that maybe don't align with your values.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're making an excuse for a lot of murder.

[Juliana]

Now when you have a high concentration of a subjugated people in one area.

[Charlie Kirk]

If you were right, when blacks in America did not have the same rights they had today, they were less murderous. There was less break ins. Why is that so?

[Juliana]

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that blacks thrive under subjugation?

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I'm not. I'm saying. I'm asking you the question. The data shows they were actually better in the 1940s. It was bad, it was evil. But what happened? Something changed. They committed less crimes.

[Juliana]

Maybe they were afraid. I mean, 4,000 thousand black men, women and children were killed in violent lynch mobs.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's your explanation.

[Juliana]

But I guess racial terror permeated American culture for hundreds of years.

[Charlie Kirk]

Black America is worse than it has been.

[Juliana]

That affected the generational psych of an entire group of people.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm sure it did. I'm not discounting that. I'm just trying to understand why is it the more social welfare we've done? So we've spent 20 trillion dollars on uplifting black communities. 20 trillion in black American are poor. We've done everything that's been asked.

[Juliana]

You haven't done everything that's been asked.

[Charlie Kirk]

Great Society.

[Juliana]

Because what is being asked?

[Charlie Kirk]

Subsidized housing, Medicaid, public schooling, going subsidized college. We're talking about $20 trillion that spent on the Great Society. And yet black America is poorer, more murderous, more dangerous. So there's an explanation. I'm asking you.

[Juliana]

But we are not asking for handouts. We are asking for equity. And part of equity.

[Charlie Kirk]

What is equity?

[Juliana]

Excuse me? It means sharing, which is something that you guys seem to have a very hard time doing.

[Charlie Kirk]

Sharing. So somebody has to explain why black America and you haven't is 13% of the population and commits 58% of the murder.

[Juliana]

Black people have built and founded this society.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thank you. I was very smart group, very opinionated. There were a couple other people. I kind of felt bad for them. They had a lot of strong opinions, but they just weren't ready for prime time. Overall, very good group, very impressive.

[Mason]

Republicans tend to just focus on, like, preventing you from arguing your point, not actually countering the points that you come up with.

[Juliana]

He often will switch the topic, like do a lot of Gish galloping and like kind of filibustering to get people to not be able to make the points that they want to make. And I definitely feel like he did that to me.

[Charlie Kirk]

Look, Charlie's a talented guy.

[Mason]

There's a reason why he spoke at the rnc. He's media trained.

[Charlie Kirk]

He's had conversations like this before, and.

[Mason]

He'S built a career on dunking on college students.

[Charlie Kirk]

But for a bunch of liberal students who don't have that same type of media training and who aren't as prepared to be in confrontational formats like this.

[Mason]

I thought they did a really good job of articulating their views.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, Mason was the smartest kid for sure. Parker needs to calm down. Very smart, but kept on changing the topic. But he's got talent. Very annoying, though. Smart, but annoying.

[Juliana]

Parker definitely gave Charlie a run for his. Yeah, Parker ate. Parker ate that down.

[Charlie Kirk]

One girl was very nasty. She was a very nasty person. She overly personalized it.

[Juliana]

I honestly don't regret any of the things I said. The only thing I would have taken back is. I said at the end as I walked away, I said, I hope your daughter can get away from you. That one was a dig and that was my bad. But honestly, in the case of her being a 10 year old pregnant and he won't let her get medical help, that's just wild to me. I can't, I can't believe that.

[Mason]

I think the group did very great. It's a very hard environment for people to learn in these types of areas, but I think it's best that people get involved in debate and entertainment as it helps people grow and critically think in our society.

[Charlie Kirk]

I thought it was very valuable. I hope people learned something. I think the students were able to refine their arguments and hopefully this gets seen by millions of people where they're able to see what side they land on. But yeah, it's not easy just to stand there. Be 20 on one, but only at Jubilee Media.

[Mason]

Don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever.

[Juliana]

You get your podcasts so that you.

[Mason]

Don'T miss an episode.

[Charlie Kirk]

And if you want to watch the.

[Mason]

Video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.

[Juliana]

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