Dean Withers vs 20 Trump Supporters

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Surrounded – Dean Withers vs 20 Trump Supporters

Podcast: Surrounded (Jubilee Media)
Host/Guest: Dean Withers (19-year-old liberal political debater)
Date: September 14, 2025
Episode Focus: Dean Withers faces 20 Trump supporters in an open, high-tension debate, defending progressive positions on Trump, Kamala Harris, race, policy, patriotism, and family values.

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Main Theme and Purpose

This striking episode of Surrounded features Dean Withers, a young liberal debater, as the lone progressive voice engaging directly and passionately with 20 Trump supporters. The central aim is to examine deeply divided views on Donald Trump, Kamala Harris, patriotism, race, family values, and policies affecting Americans today, with particular focus on mutual challenges, fact checks, and the potential for civil (if heated) debate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is Donald Trump Racist?

• Historical Allegations:
  • Dean presents evidence of civil litigation against Trump in the 1970s for discriminating against Black renters ([01:26], [02:20]).

    “...he would send in, quote, unquote testers...white person...say, yes...then they'd send in a black tester...be denied. DOJ...held him liable...not renting to black people...” — Dean Withers [01:26]

• Counterarguments:
  • Trump supporters claim the DOJ was "weaponized" for political reasons, even in the 1970s, and argue Trump employs many minorities ([02:20]–[03:56]).

    “He employs a lot of minorities...Why wouldn't he be renting to black people? It doesn't make any sense.” — Hispanic Trump Supporter [02:20]

• Birtherism:
  • Dean highlights Trump's promotion of the birther conspiracy against Obama, asserting it as obvious racism. Supporters downplay or justify questioning Obama's birthplace ([04:09]–[05:13]).

    “...because Barack Obama is black, he's obviously not a US Born citizen.” — Dean Withers [04:09] “He did not say that he was black. He's not a US Born citizen.” — Hispanic Trump Supporter [04:42]

• Modern Acts:
  • Dean calls out Trump’s statement about Harris “turning black” as recent evidence ([11:49]).

2. Trump's Actions & Racial Impact

• Supporters emphasize Trump’s record on policies supporting the Black community (First Step Act, HBCU funding, Opportunity Zones), but Dean rebuts these with data: Obama and Biden's administrations sent more funding to HBCUs ([07:23]); First Step Act originated before Trump, he merely signed it ([07:59]).

  “Obama sent 1 billion a year and Biden sent $4 billion a year. So not only did he decrease funding to historically black universities..." — Dean Withers [07:44]

3. Border Crisis & Immigration

• Policy Effectiveness:
  • Debate over border “crisis”: Dean argues Trump’s policies (wall, Remain in Mexico) were ineffective, with border crossings only dropping after Title 42 ([16:51]).
  • Supporters reference HR2 as the real solution, claim Senate bills failed or were sabotaged ([17:18], [55:08]).
• Political Motives:
  • Dean posits Trump discouraged passage of bipartisan border security (Lankford’s bill) to retain campaign issues and doesn't truly care about solving the border crisis ([34:13], [52:22]).

    “...Donald Trump turns around and calls up the Republicans in the House and the Senate and tells them to vote against the bill because he doesn’t want to give the Democrats a win and he wants the ability to be able to campaign on the crisis at the southern border.” — Dean Withers [34:13]

4. Does Trump Care About the American People?

• Dean argues that Trump elevates self-interest over the nation, citing January 6th, election denial, and using misinformation ([26:13], [36:13]).

  “...he has incessantly placed himself above the American people. One of the best examples of this was in 2020 when he denied the outcome of the election...attempted to stage a coup against our government...” — Dean Withers [26:13]

• Supporters counter with anecdotes of Trump connecting with ordinary Americans, visiting disaster sites, and offering emotional support ([27:12]).
• Economic debate centers on tax cuts: supporters claim they benefited the middle class, Dean says 83% helped the top 1% ([24:52]–[25:35]).

  “83% of the tax cuts in the bill went to the top 1%...cost the American taxpayer $1.9 trillion...” — Dean Withers [25:35]

5. Kamala Harris vs Donald Trump

Character:

• Dean offers a categorical contrast: Trump — “sexual abuser,” “felon,” “fraudster,” “election denier”; Harris — “wants to protect and preserve democracy,” “fight for freedom of Americans” ([43:06]).
• Supporters attack Harris’ character, referencing unproven claims she “slept her way to the top” and prosecuted minor offenses ([00:04], [44:22]).
  • Dean refutes with electoral numbers (“4.5 million votes to get into AG and DA and slept with zero of them” [00:10]); calls out misogyny.

    “Saying that women have to sleep with men to get into positions of power is a misogynistic lie.” — Dean Withers [45:18]

Policy:

• Dean lists landmark Democratic bills: PACT Act, CHIPS Act, Infrastructure Bill, Inflation Reduction Act benefiting the lower and middle class, arguing Harris had a hand in key Senate breakthroughs ([47:27]).
• Supporters have difficulty naming a Trump policy that prioritized low/middle class over wealthy, mostly referencing COVID response or general economic “feeling” ([22:24], [48:18]).

6. Patriotism: Who Loves America More?

• Dean: Dems more patriotic for defending democracy against Trump’s coup efforts; nothing is “less patriotic than supporting Donald Trump” after Jan 6 ([77:15]).
• Supporters: Patriotism is symbolized by the flag, military honor, and “pride”; accuse Dems of burning flags, fostering chaos, and abandoning Americans in Afghanistan ([78:51], [90:31]).
• Fiery exchanges on Afghanistan pullout: who to blame (Trump or Biden) and what it says about American values ([84:47]–[88:16]).

  “If the Afghanistan pullout were to have occurred as the way that you described it, it would have been anti-patriotic. It would have been bad. Thirteen service members lost their lives...” — Dean Withers [87:49]

7. Family Values: Pro-Life, IVF, LGBTQ

• Dean challenges whether conservatives’ support of Trump, anti-abortion, anti-IVF, and anti-LGBTQ policies truly promote “family values” ([57:08]).

  “I don't see how ... any conservative or Trump supporter could say that they care about the family unit because of how hard y'all fight for pro life legislation.” — Dean Withers [57:08]

• Supporters link pro-life to protecting “innocent human life,” equate abortion with murder, and see adoption as pro-family; accuse Democrats of “destroying the family unit” ([69:40]).
• Dean distinguishes being pro-choice on the basis of consciousness and viability, not opposing all human life before birth; uses analogies for property and consent ([70:48]).
• Discussion on abortion includes whether using some birth control methods (IUDs) would be “murder” by pro-life logic ([95:04]).

  “So women with some forms of birth control should go to jail.” — Dean Withers [96:12]
  “Now we're on a red herring though.” — Pro-Life Advocate [96:16]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dean calling out conspiracy:

  “I think that at the end of the day, this is going to be a conspiracy theory.” – Dean Withers [04:09]

• Dean vs. allegations on Kamala Harris:

  “Saying that women have to sleep with men to get into positions of power is a misogynistic lie.” – Dean Withers [45:18]

• How Dean defines patriotism:

  “There’s nothing less patriotic than supporting Donald Trump, a man that has already tried to destroy our country internally by overthrowing the results ... of the 2020 election.” – Dean Withers [80:10]

• On abortion and morality:

  “So some women with some forms of birth control should go to jail.” – Dean Withers [96:12]

• A Republican perspective:

  “I think at the end of the day, you have the facts. It's how you construe them. And I think he did really well at construing the facts ... He did make me kind of think a little bit.” – Republican Supporter [102:33]

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Detailed Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic/Interaction | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------|---------------| | Opening/Setting the Stage | 00:00–00:56 | | Trump Racism Debate & DOJ Suit | 01:26–04:09 | | Birtherism, Obama, Racial Comment | 04:09–06:20 | | Policy Impact on Black Community | 06:21–08:01 | | Civil Discourse Mediation | 08:31–09:45 | | Moderation on ‘Racism’ Definition | 09:50–11:23 | | Trump’s Kamala Statement as Modern Racism | 11:49–13:06 | | Palm Beach/Mar-a-Lago Lawsuit Talk | 13:13–14:48 | | Border Crisis Deep Dive | 15:05–18:40 | | Tax Policy Debate | 24:52–25:35 | | Does Trump Care About Americans? Argument | 26:13–26:49 | | Coup/Election Denial (“Fake Electors”) | 28:31–30:13 | | Economic Impact of COVID/Biden/Trump | 30:13–31:59 | | Immigration’s Economic Role | 31:59–33:42 | | Border Bill Politics (Lankford) | 34:13–35:14 | | Trump/Harris: Policy & Character Contest | 43:06–45:18 | | Kamala Harris’ Record: Myths and Facts | 45:14–47:41 | | “Kamala Hasn’t Done Anything” Claims | 48:18–49:26 | | Harris vs. Border Czar Criticism | 49:44–52:21 | | Family Values, Abortion, and Policy Analogy | 57:08–71:27 | | Pro-Choice/Pro-Life Deep Exchange | 91:17–101:47 | | Closing Thoughts, Reflections | 102:00–102:57 |

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Tone and Language

The episode is intense, direct, frequently combative, and high-energy—though moments of respectful debate and vulnerability emerge, particularly when participants acknowledge gaps in their own or each other’s knowledge. The language transitions from data-driven and articulate (Dean) to emotionally charged and anecdotal (many supporters), with moments of sarcasm, accusation, and attempts at good-faith explanations.

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Conclusion

This Surrounded episode offers a panoramic, unflinching glimpse into the furthest divides in American political discourse, with Dean Withers providing persistent, well-researched progressive pushback against 20 Trump supporters. Key debates focus on race, truth, democracy, family, and patriotism, and, despite (or because of) interruptions and ideological gridlock, the episode achieves both confrontation and moments of connection. Listeners come away with a clear view of the arguments each side values most, and the pressure points most likely to shape 2024's electoral and social debates.

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Transcript

[Dean Withers]

There's two main categorical reasons why I say Harris would be better than Trump. The first category is character.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Speaking of which, you know, if we're bringing up stuff from the past, we can say she slept with Willie Brown, broke up a family just to get her job.

[Dean Withers]

She got 4.5 million votes to get into AG and DA and slept with zero of them. You don't know how you feel about Donald Trump. Did you know that? No. Okay.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Absolutely not.

[Dean Withers]

You think that she slept with 4.5.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Million people to get in her position, but the one.

[Dean Withers]

Are you serious? Was the most important person. Did you just say that she had to sleep with 4.5 million people? From Jubilee Media, this is surrounded. Where one brave soul faces is a room full of disagreers. Let's get into it. My name is Dean Withers. I'm a 19 year old liberal. I do political debate for a living. And today I'm surrounded by 20 Trump supporters. My first claim is Donald Trump is a racist. Yeah.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

So I don't understand how people get this idea that Trump is racist. You know, my family came from a communist country. They came from Cuba and they came from Mexico. So I don't see anything or any statement that he's ever made that's racist. I mean, there's things that there's accusations, but there's no facts behind it. And this whole idea that all Hispanics are illegal immigrants and they came here undocumented is not true because my family came here on both sides from through the legal immigration process, not illegally here.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so that was a bold claim. You just said that, you know, there's no facts to substantiate the idea that Donald Trump is going to be a racist. So in the 1970s, there's civil litigation held against him by the DOD, the state of New York, for literally not renting to black people. What they did is they would send in, quote, unquote testers to his rental properties at the time. They'd send in a white person. The white person would ask the property manager if they had any available properties to rent. They'd say, yes, here we go. Here's housing application. Then they'd send in a black tester that asked the same question, and then they'd actually be denied. When this was investigated by the doj, the property manager told them that this was just a quote, unquote order from the higher up, from this boss, from Donald Trump. And then they investigated Donald Trump, brought civil litigation against him and they, yeah, they essentially determined that, yeah, he wasn't renting to black people, in which he then had a promise, the doj, that he was no longer going to racially profile in his housing application and even had to put ads in the New York newspaper saying that he rent to black people.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

So what you're saying is basically he's not renting to black people, but yet he employs a lot of minorities. He employs a lot of blacks, Asians, Hispanics onto his staff. So why wouldn't he be renting to black people? It doesn't make any sense.

[Dean Withers]

Also because it's an example of racism.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

But also is an example that the Department of Justice has weaponized against people that do something in life.

[Dean Withers]

Can you give me any evidence for that?

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

I'll give you evidence of that. Yes, I will. Because Trump was political for a very long time. He made political statements. He was very unpopular with a lot of Democrats. He would say things that they didn't like, and they would go after him. They would weaponize the Department of Justice, just like they are right now. They're weaponizing the Department of Justice against him. They're using the government for their political power to go against him because they disagree with his political opinion. That's what they do. The Democrats have been going after him for years, even considering he used to be a registered Democrat. So I don't believe that Trump is racist whatsoever. I don't see that because I see his employees. I've been to a lot of his properties in the past, and I know that he hires a lot of minorities. So I don't believe that to be true.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so your claim here is that, well, he actually didn't do what the DOJ accused him and held him liable for doing.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Yeah, but the DOJ says a lot of things. That doesn't make it.

[Dean Withers]

I finish real quick. So you're saying that the DOJ actually was unfairly persecuting Donald Trump, a political opponent in the 70s? He wasn't running for any public office, so I don't know why you'd say that was a political opponent, but maybe we can look at a more intuitive example.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

He's made political statements in the 70s as well.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Yeah. Okay, so your claim is that, yeah, the DOJ was unfairly persecuting him. Do you have any evidence of that?

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

If you go back, do you have any evidence why the DOJ was investigating him in the first place?

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, because they'd gotten.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

No, there's no evidence.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

I mean, DOJ has been an illegitimate organization for a very long time. So they make a lot of statements but it doesn't mean that they're going to actually, that they actually go through with anything. Nothing really happened at the end of the day. It was just a witch hunt. At the end of the day.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, well, I mean, I don't think you have any evidence for the claim that it was a witch hunt. I think that at the end of the day, this is a conspiracy theory. I think that Donald Trump conspiracy theory. What if I finish real quick? Thanks. So I think that at the end of the day, this is going to be a conspiracy theory. I think that the DOJ does this. I'm sorry. That Donald Trump would perpetuate a lot of conspiracy theories. He did this without coming the 2020 election. But let's look at another examp that's not coming from like the DOJ or like the criminal justice system. We're like referencing like 2012 through 2014. Donald Trump said that because Barack Obama is black, he's obviously not a US Born citizen. So therefore he obviously.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

He did not say that he was black. He's not a US Born citizen.

[Dean Withers]

Well, let's talk about the birther movement. Right, So I just have a quick question. Would you say trying to take there.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Was legitimacy questioning his birth certificate.

[Dean Withers]

Questioning his birth certificate.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

What legitimacy is he questioning? His family came from Kenya. How is he running for president?

[Dean Withers]

Wait, Donald Trump's mother is a Scottish. Is a Scottish immigrant. Should we question his birth certificate?

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

They came here through the legal process.

[Dean Withers]

Process.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

He didn't come here through the legal process.

[Dean Withers]

Wait, so you're saying that Obama's parents were undocumented migrants? One second. I just want to clarify this.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Which is disqualified in his presence.

[Dean Withers]

I just want to answer a question.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Would have disqualified.

[Dean Withers]

I want to ask you a question.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

I'm friends with Sheriff Jord Pyle, who I'm friends with, looked into the claims of that birth certificate, and there was questions of whether it was falsified.

[Dean Withers]

Wait, so there was. You believe that?

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Yes, I do believe that.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so you are. You are racist, just like Donald Trump.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

I'm not racist.

[Dean Withers]

Oh, wow.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

You're calling a Hispanic and a Cuban racist.

[Dean Withers]

Do you mind if I. You mind if I take 30 seconds here? All right, so first of all, yes.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Another white liberal.

[Dean Withers]

All right.

[Republican Supporter]

All right. Want to start where you guys left off?

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, I think that hopefully we can slow things down a little bit here, have some productive conversation. So, yeah, how about I just start off by giving you my reasons why I think that Donald Trump is racist. So with the last guy we kind of touched on the civil litigation that was held against him in the 1970s for not renting to black people. But I want to focus upon a more, like, intuitive example, proponing the idea that Barack Obama was not a US Born citizen. So first, I just want to ask you a very simple question. Would you say trying to take away opportunity from a black man because he's black is racism?

[Republican Supporter]

Yeah. I mean, to be honest, yes, I do believe that.

[Dean Withers]

Okay.

[Republican Supporter]

But I think we also have to look into what the administration, when he was in office did not what happened back in 1970 when he wasn't even in office. It was a complete different administration making the rules.

[Dean Withers]

Okay.

[Republican Supporter]

When he was in office, he gave opportunity zones, gave funding to HBCUs. He also implemented the First Step act, which I feel like liberals really focus on. Like, oh, our prison system has a majority of African Americans in there, so we gave them an opportunity to get out early to start a new life. So I think if we're going to go back and look at some stuff in the 1970s, that's not really fair because there's a lot of people on the Democrat side that have done worse things while in office. Joe Biden, who, when he was a senator, pushed to get African Americans incarcerated at a higher rate. Like, actions speak louder than words at.

[Dean Withers]

The end of the day.

[Republican Supporter]

And what Trump did in office helped the black community an exponential amount compared to all the other administrations on the Democratic Party.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so you're saying what he did in office helped African Americans more than other administrations? Yeah. You referenced historically, historically black universities. Do you know how much funding he sent to HBCUs?

[Republican Supporter]

A decent amount. A decent amount. I can't give you the exact amount.

[Dean Withers]

So the exact amount was $250 million per year. Do you know how much Obama's administration and Biden's administration have sent?

[Republican Supporter]

I would like to hear.

[Dean Withers]

Obama sent 1 billion a year and Biden sent $4 billion a year. So not only did he decrease funding to historically black universities. All right. But also you referenced the First Step Act. There's how did Donald Trump influence the First Step act to get passed through Congress? Well, how did he influence that bill through Congress?

[Republican Supporter]

Answer that question for me.

[Dean Withers]

Because he didn't influence it. In fact, it was proposed to Congress under Obama's administration and it was shot down. And then something else. I did want to.

[Republican Supporter]

At the end of the day, as president, he has the ability to sign or send a bill back to Congress, and he signed it. If he was truly racist, he would not have signed it in the first place.

[Dean Withers]

Okay.

[Republican Supporter]

But at the end of the day, he still signed it. And he has that ability, just like every president before. They don't like a bill. They have the ability to send it right back to Congress, and there's congressional means to get it passed without the president's approval, but still, he signed it. If he's really a racist, why do you sign it in the first place?

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, well, I don't think that we could just ignore Trump saying that Obama isn't a US Born citizen and he's probably from Kenya. Right. I don't think that we can ignore. But here's the thing. Do you mind if I finish here, sir? Hey, go ahead, go ahead. I don't think that we could ignore the civil litigation against him in the 1970s for not renting to black people. I don't think we could ignore his recent comments about Kamala Harris saying that she turned black, implying that she wasn't black prior, just because he signed the First Step act into law. Like, I understand that does do something for the African American community, but I don't think we could say because he did this one thing that all of these other examples are null and void. You also referenced Joe Biden there. I have no problem saying that Joe Biden has a racist past. And in fact, I think that's something I need to recognize and we should all recognize. But what I can't stand is when I hear people denying Trump's racism, saying it never occurred, when it's so obvious.

[Republican Supporter]

But at the end of the day, what I'm trying to explain right now is, is that Biden has signed bills into law, voted for them, that hurt the community. Trump has not done anything to that extent. Sure, he says some things were maybe a little bit iffy way back. You're saying things were back in the 1970s that did not even have, like, that he couldn't even, like, sign a law or anything like that because he wasn't even in office.

[Dean Withers]

Three, two, one.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Okay, I guess where I want to start with is looking at the actual word racist. I think nowadays it's a word that people throw around, kind of like the word love. It is a very powerful word. It has a lot of negative connotation. It has a lot of power that comes with it. When I think of racists, I think of Hitler who murdered millions of Jews. When I think of racists, I think of the Ottoman Turks that murdered 1.5 million of my people. I think of that. I don't think of Trump, who maybe he said Things in the past, this or that. If we want to go about talking about saying things. Biden said Obama is one of the first mainstream blacks to be bright and intelligent. He said that you can only walk into a 711 if you have an Indian accent. He has said that if you vote for Trump over him, you're not black. He said so many of these things in his past. And the prompt is talking about, is Trump racist? But to me, it's not about that because of how the media has displayed racism. They just focus on Trump and it is about both sides. They don't touch upon Biden, they don't talk about Biden. And when you look at his policies, like my friend mentioned, if Trump was a racist, he would not be passing policies. He wouldn't even give a dollar to these black universities if he truly had this. It's an intention of the heart. And I'll go out and I'll step out and say, I'm sure everybody here has said something racist and in their life. That doesn't make you a racist. It's kind of like if you weigh 400 pounds and you eat celery, you're not skinny. All these examples that you're talking about are from years and years ago. What has he done that's racist in the last maybe five, ten years?

[Dean Withers]

Ten years ago, 2014, Trump was actively proponing Barack Obama's birther myth. The idea that he was not born in.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

But you already said that example. Give me something new because that's okay, fine, yeah, sure.

[Dean Withers]

I mean, you're asking for something the last five to 10 years. That was 10 years ago. I thought that I'd just go over that again. Another reason why I wanted to go over that again with you is because how intuitively racist it is. Right. Denying or saying that a black man should have less opportunity because of the color of his skin is very obviously racist.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

When did he make that comment?

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, so the whole birther myth with Barack Obama. Right. I essentially hope to achieve that. He wasn't born in the US he was born in Kenya. And because he's not a US Born citizen, he shouldn't have the opportunity to run for US President. The only reason he said that is because of the color of Barack Obama's skin.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Has he explicitly said he said that specifically because he's black, or are you just taking that assumption?

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so what, what else, what explanation do we have here?

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

I've said everything I need to say. I'm waiting on you.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so, I mean, well, yeah, I think that looking at Barack Obama saying that he was born in Africa and then even denying his birth certificate from Hawaii, still like attributing his birth to Africa. I don't really see any other explanation apart from that besides the fact that Barack Obama has black skin. And then another example, that's also a comment.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

That wasn't a racist action. That was a comment. He's. What action has he taken part in the last five, 10 years that have been racist against not even just blacks, against other races?

[Dean Withers]

All right, first, I don't think that we should call like African Americans like blacks. I think that's a dehumanizing word. But second of all opinion. But okay, okay, sorry, Second of. Second of all right, even if we look at like the last month or two, I'd say that saying Kamala Harris, right, quote, unquote, turn black, implying that she wasn't black prior, that's another racist comment. We could also reference that plays with.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

That one day she's Indian, one day she's black.

[Dean Withers]

That's not true. Hello. Howdy.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Very nice to meet you.

[Dean Withers]

So nice to meet you as well.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

So, you know, you're looking back at Donald Trump's history. One thing I do want to say, I don't know if you are aware, Palm beach didn't used to let African Americans there. Donald Trump sued the city of Palm beach to allow black membership at Mar a Lago. That is not racist. I think one of the problems that we have a lot on the left, every time there's a disagreement, we get thrown. You're a racist, you're a sexist, you're this, you're that. And it dissolves the discussions that we should be having on policies. Secondly, Donald Trump worked with Senator Scott to create opportunity zones in black communities. If he was truly a racist, it's not something that he would do. So I think the whole premise is he's a racist, he's a sexist, takes away from policy positions that we should be discussing. If we go to the border and we talk about rapists and murderers, yeah, they are happening. Lake and Riley is now dead. We have 300,000 missing migrant children known sold into the sex trade, per the last IG report. These are important issues. Our economy's important issues.

[Dean Withers]

Do you mind if I ask you a question?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Absolutely.

[Dean Withers]

Are you a US born citizen?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

100%.

[Dean Withers]

You are statistically speaking, four times more likely to commit a violent crime than an undocumented migrant. So when you kind of virtue signal.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

On behalf of that they shouldn't be here.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. All right.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

And my husband's an immigrant.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Yeah.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

But a legal immigrant.

[Dean Withers]

Okay.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Who came here legally.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, I understand.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

We've got 100 ISIS in our country right now. That was reported. We've got Godaways. We've got Tende Jaragua. I've interviewed Oscar Blue, who's been through the Darien gap four times. People are dying.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so you're saying that we have a crisis at the southern border?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Well, I'm saying that you're saying that Donald Trump is racist. Donald Trump loves America.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Okay.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Well, first of all, who puts Americans first?

[Dean Withers]

I want to ask you one simple question first, and maybe we could get back to the prompt. Do you think that we have a crisis at the southern border today?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

100%.

[Dean Withers]

So you'd say that we also had a crisis at the southern border at the end of Trump's term because we have the same amount of daily crisis.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

No, we do not have.

[Dean Withers]

Yes, we have about 20, 20, 400 crossings a day. Then, as we added to Trump After.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Biden's 14,000 crossings a day, the Biden Harris administration put us back into what's called the Global Compact of Migration. They are now using an app where they use our refugee resettlement program to fly people into our country to different states. So for you to say that the Trump administration that did not have catch and release, that. That is not. And Biden put it back in. And then we also had remain in Mexico, which on day one of Biden's administration, he wiped out because it was ineffective.

[Dean Withers]

I mean, we can.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Oh, it was very effective.

[Dean Withers]

Do you mind if I talk real quick? I.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

It's just propaganda. It's what you've heard from CNN and msnbc.

[Dean Withers]

Actually, how about I provide you a source that isn't cnn, isn't msnbc, and it's actually a source from Donald Trump's rally. So remember when Donald Trump got shot in his ear? What did he have behind him?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

It was the chart that showed the lowest crossings.

[Dean Withers]

Do you mind if I talk about that chart?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

I have. Should we bring it out?

[Dean Withers]

You have the chart with you?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Yeah, I do.

[Dean Withers]

Bring the chart out.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Can you hand me my purse?

[Dean Withers]

Someone like you have, like a. Like you have, like, an actual picture of the chart?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

I do.

[Dean Withers]

Phenomenal. Let's look at the chart. She is prepared. This is great. Oh, it's on your phone. I thought that you had, like, an actual picture.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

We can hold it up to the camera if they want to see it.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Well, I mean. Well, maybe we could just reference the Data on that chart. So you're referencing the remain in Mexico policy. So that was one of Donald Trump's day ones. He only had increasing border numbers until the day he signed Title 42 into effect. Year by year, they only increase. Is that why Mexico policy, the wall, it was all incredibly ineffective border legislation. He couldn't get Congress together to pass anything, so then he had a reproach dog to build the wall.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

That's not true. Congress passed HR2. It's been sitting on Chuck Schumer's desk. And Since May of 2023, it was the one bill that would secure the border. Border Patrol has endorsed President Trump. Law enforcement has endorsed President Trump. The Biden administration and the Harris administration have failed this nation and they have allowed this invasion of our country. And Americans are dying and sorry, these gang members should not be here.

[Dean Withers]

I have a question. So what do you say? We had an undocumented migrant that was like a felon, a sexual abus, a violent offender, that they shouldn't be allowed in the country 100%.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

None of these people should be without process.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so my question to you would be, well, then why do you want a criminal felon, sexual abuser to run the country?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Because I believe that we're suffering from an extreme case of lawfare, which I can prove. And you know, when you look at. Let's take for instance, the New York case, the one that he's going to probably go to jail for even though he's not guilty.

[Dean Withers]

The 34 felonies.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

The 34 felonies that they changed the statute of limitations in order to prosecute him. Oh, that they changed.

[Dean Withers]

Your case is confused. So they didn't change any statute of limitations.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Oh, yes, they did.

[Dean Withers]

One second. I know what you're referencing. If you'll just allow me.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Yes, they did.

[Dean Withers]

Just allow me.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

But not only.

[Dean Withers]

Mind if I just have 30 seconds.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Well, we only have 40 seconds left.

[Dean Withers]

I just want to clarify. They didn't change.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

You've got this seat the whole time.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, we have 35 seconds left. What were his felonies for?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Okay, so let's not talk about that. Let's talk about the plain and simple fact that they moved the number three from Biden's DOJ to a state case. Let's talk about the fact that Mark Pomeranz, who worked in the Biden administration, basically pled the fist six times when he said that he was talking to Bragg and he would not talk about that Alvin Bragg ran on getting Trump. Let's talk about Judge Merchant's daughter Laura, who's making millions for the Harris administration and the Biden administration right now in order to to prosecute Trump. That is recusal. It's going to get dropped at the Supreme Court. Alvin Bragg should have recused himself. Judge Merchant should have recused himself.

[Dean Withers]

Electric power. This episode is brought to you by FXX and Hulu. Futurama returns on September 15. Blending heartfelt moments with razor sharp humor while accidentally saving the day. The Planet Express crew is back, defying.

[Republican Supporter]

Gravity and common sense.

[Dean Withers]

From the creator of The Simpsons comes 10 new episodes where the romance is hotter, the threats are bigger and the action hits harder. Don't miss the all new season of Futurama returning September 15th at 8pm Watch it on FXX or streaming on Hulu. My next claim is Donald Trump doesn't care about the American.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

I completely disagree with you on that. That Trump doesn't. You're saying he doesn't care about the American people. I mean, while he was president, he was pushing pro economic policies which were furthering the American economy. I mean, right now if you go to a gas station, you're paying more money to fill up your car. Going to the grocery store, you're paying more for meat, you're paying more for groceries, you're paying more for a lot of things. Taxes are higher right now, so why.

[Dean Withers]

Taxes are higher right now? We're still under Donald Trump's tax code.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

We're not completely. No, that's not true. That's not. That's not true. Because each individual state can impose their.

[Dean Withers]

Own taxes from the federal tax.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

I'm going to give you an example. In Los Angeles county, they passed all these other measures increasing quarter cent sales tax here in Los Angeles County. And what do they do with the money? They misuse the money. They don't even use it to fix the streets. They allocate all this funding towards the homeless. Billions of dollars saying they're going to build all these shelters, they're going to build public housing, and yet all the money goes to administrative cost, it goes into the pension system. So they're misusing the money. They're not using the money to actually help people. So if you think about someone that's going to help people, Democrats have been promising people in the state of California that they're going to do something about the problem, yet they have unlimited power here to do whatever they want. But yet we have thousands of homeless. The LA Times reported that there was 66,000 more homeless people in the last seven years. That's the LA Times, as a liberal magazine, quoted There's 66,000 more homeless people in Los Angeles.

[Dean Withers]

Can I ask you a question? Go ahead. So I have, like, a lot of reasons I'd like to bring up here why I'd say that Trump doesn't care about the American people. But you reference his economic policy and we could reference that. So. Yeah. Can you name like, one economic policy that Donald Trump influenced to get past that benefited the low and the middle class more than it benefited the top 1%?

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Well, first of all, the Democrats pass all these policies.

[Dean Withers]

Wait, just about Donald Trump, can you name one policy he influenced to get passed that benefits the low and the middle class more than it Benefited the top 1%?

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Yeah, he tried it. Or during COVID he tried to keep businesses open. I mean, Democrats were trying to close down all their states.

[Dean Withers]

Can you name a policy businesses that they put. No, no, no.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

They put a lot of businesses out of business during COVID During the past years that Covid was in existence, all the states that were liberal Democrat run states have controlled a lot of the process here in the state of California, Like I'll give you an example.

[Dean Withers]

You did, Anthony. I'm so sorry.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

In the state of California, Gavin Newsom. In the state of California, Gavin Newsom shut down this state. Ron DeSantis did not shut down his state. Yet you have businesses here that were small that went out of business. Yet you have the state of Florida. The majority of businesses stayed in business. Did not go out of business. The only businesses that went out of business that stayed in business were corporations like McDonald's, Burger King, and Walmart.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so. And with all due respect, literally didn't answer my question.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Democrats were benefiting those businesses because they were voting in favor of them.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, with all due respect, you literally didn't answer my question. I asked you to name a policy that Trump influenced get passed.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

But you're the one that called me racist earlier, so I'm supposed to answer you.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, well, I mean, if you don't want to have a productive dialogue with me here, I don't see what your point of even showing up to the episode would be.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Well, productive is not calling someone racist either. Right.

[Dean Withers]

Cool. Howdy. Hello.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Hi, George.

[Dean Withers]

So maybe we could go about it this way. Can I give you my reasons why? I'd say that he doesn't care about the American people. And get your thoughts. Let me, if you don't mind, let me start. Okay. Is honestly, the question's dumb. The statement's dumb because it's one sided and it's an opinion on what we think he believes or he feels. This prompt says Donald Trump doesn't care about the American people. I would like to give you my. I'll actually answer the other thing. You mentioned a policy that Donald Trump pushed for that benefited low and middle income people more than it benefited the top 1%, his tax policies. And I know this for a fact because I'm middle, low income and everyone I know that's middle to low income, actually I don't know that many. Everyone makes more money than me. Okay. Do you mind if I. No. The only people I know of that complain about Trump's tax policies are those that make a reasonably high amount of money. There is nobody I know that makes over like 200 something K that doesn't complain about his tax policy.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

So I don't know what you make doing this.

[Dean Withers]

It's probably more than I make. I kind of wish I did what you do to a degree, but if you're making more than 200, can I copy everything then? I'm sure you can complain, but I'm benefiting and I make less than you, probably. Okay, so first of all, you said that Trump's tax policy benefited the low and middle class more than it benefited rich people. That claim is false. 83% of the tax cuts in the bill went to the top 1%, went to people making over $400,000 a year. And it cost the American taxpayer $1.9 trillion through debt related spending. And it only is going to lead to an average annual GDP increase of 0.02%. Please allow me to finish. Right, so it is the case that no, that didn't benefit the low in the middle class more so than the top 1% and only is leading to greater income inequities. I don't believe you and I don't.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Agree with you and I've.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so that's coming from data I've seen no data to support that. Okay, so that's coming from the Tax Policy Foundation. That's coming from, you know, like, you know, other economic sources that we would find online to be able to distribute how much it costs. Three, two, one. Okay, so is it all right if I give you my reasons why? I'd say he doesn't care about the.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

American people in 10 seconds or less.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, Well, I mean, I feel like in order to like have productive dialogue, right. We have to be able to distinguish, like why I believe the things that I say. Okay, why you?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

And then I'll let You know why I believe the things that I do.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so the reason I'd say that Donald Trump doesn't care about the American people is because he has incessantly placed himself above the American people. One of the best examples of this was in 2020 when he denied the outcome of the election. And then he attempted to stage a coup against our government in an attempt to rig the outcome of the 2020 election by, like, sending fake certificates of ascertainment to Congress to be certified as real. That was the greatest internal attack on our government since the Civil War. Another example would be the border. He inconsistently placed himself above the American people in that respect. He torpedoed Lankford's bill in the Senate that would have specifically brought into this crisis two years ago.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

You've got three.

[Dean Withers]

Didn't want to give the Democrats a win.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Let's slow down.

[Dean Withers]

Another example.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let's slow down because you just put out so much. And let's unpack that a little bit.

[Dean Withers]

Let's do it.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Okay, so the first thing that you. I. One thing I would like to say. Does Donald Trump care about the American people? Donald Trump went to East Palestine. Joe Biden waited six months. Okay.

[Dean Withers]

Okay.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Donald Trump went to the military families of the soldiers that were killed at Abbey Gate. Joe Biden forgot their names. Donald Trump went and visited the people whose families were killed by migrants that were criminals. Joe Biden won't mention their names. Donald Trump let me, an average American citizen, go to his house three times.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Do you mind, like, responding to my reasons why?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Okay, let's start with Reason 1.

[Dean Withers]

Cool.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Every election in history has had challenges, including Bush v. Gore. There have always been alternate electorals. I believe that January 6th helped Democrats appointments well more than it ever did Republicans. You know why? Because it stopped the debate on the floor. And I, as a Republican, wanted to see that debate on the floor that day. I had problem with the elections in 2022. My son's vote didn't arrive, and I was a candidate.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, I just want to clarify. So you do affirm that Trump sent fake slates of electors to seven different states.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

They were not fake. There's always alternate slates of electors in every single.

[Dean Withers]

That is not true. That is not true.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

That is true.

[Dean Withers]

That is not true.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

That is true. On the Ron Paul campaign, is it were, like, five? Is it possible that this has happened all the time?

[Dean Withers]

Okay, yeah. Could you give me. Could you give me another example of a sitting US president not agreeing with the outcome of the 2020 election than going to the DOJ. Trump told Bill Barr to announce widespread voter fraud when there wasn't any.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

They didn't investigate it. They didn't investigate every single case, every court cases that were dismissed on standing.

[Dean Withers]

Because they didn't have sufficient evidence.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

No, because they. The judges said they never saw the evidence.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, I'm gonna go to the evidence. So, Donald Trump, you're gonna tell me.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

What you think happened, but I'm gonna tell you that you're wrong.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. One moment, ma'. Am. Donald Trump formed. Right. An election integrity committee where he appointed his people and gave them millions of dollars.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

What's happening? No, I do mind, because you.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, ma', am, if you can allow me to finish. We can't have a productive conversation here.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

We can't have productive conversations when you have an entire 20 minutes and filibuster the whole thing.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, well, if you want to talk, go ahead, but you're not allowing me the time to demonstrate why I believe in what I do.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Okay. But you're not allowing me to say basic fact of what has happened in this instance. Every person that runs for election has the opportunity to challenge an electoral process that is not illegal. What's happening now is you've got attorneys that were looking into the election fraud which the Biden DOJ is now prosecuting, having their law licenses removed. We are watching communism in live action. And you know what? I want you to have a future.

[Dean Withers]

Can you define communism?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Yeah. Basically, it's mob rule. It's Marxism. It's mob rule.

[Dean Withers]

It's false, literally, all wrong. Communism is a stateless, classless, moneyless society.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Okay.

[Dean Withers]

Welcome in doing all right. Trump's administration versus Biden's, objectively, 2016 to 2020. And then under Biden, so far up to date, objectively, the economy was better under Trump. Inflation was as high as, I believe, 9% under Biden. It's destroying the middle class, and then it's also putting people in more poverty. So how does that make Trump not be in support of American people if it's breaking down the middle class, putting people in more poverty? Yeah. So things in the grocery store are four times higher to pay for people are having harder times, put food on the table for their families. Yeah. During the Biden administration versus Trump. So I want you to. Yeah, of course. Explain. Well, let's start off here. Do you think that the Biden Harris administration cost inflation? Yeah. Because under Trump's administration and the policies he induced, inflation was never that high. Okay. And then After Covid hit and Biden's administration took over, everything skyrocketed. Gas prices, groceries. So everything. Your argument here is because it happened in the country while they were president, they caused it. So my question to you is, did Donald Trump cause the highest rate of unemployment that we've had since the Great Depression in August of 2020 at 14.8%, simply because it happened under his administration? No, simply because people couldn't leave their home, which was, you know, causing people to. And now we're introducing external variables. So in the same way Covid caused. Right. That high rate of unemployment that we had under Trump's term, Covid also caused the global inflation that we saw onset at the beginning of the Biden Harris administration. This didn't happen locally in the US this inflation happened all around the globe. But, but a fun fact here. The Biden Harris administration actually ushered in the quickest response from the inflation onset by the pandemic out of any other country in the G7. I had another point which looked better. Appreciate you for coming up, man.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

What I, what I've noticed because I work in retail for some season and I've seen a huge floodshed of Colombians coming in. Okay, we just gotta be really realistic here about the economy. So, yes, I think that kind of, you know, blaming causation and kind of correlating that to the current president, it's a little bit of a slippery slope. However, I think that when you look at the border and the way that everything has been coming in with migration, of course, that the economy became better. Why? Because a lot of Colombians came in, right. And they started working and they started inputting more taxes. All these fake socials that they get, they start contributing to the tax money, they pay more taxes every year. And the government basically hides this by grabbing an app and they basically use that as an ankle bracelet replacement so that people don't find out, instead of putting an ankle bracelet on people's ankles, they hide the fact that they're allowing all these illegal immigrants come in. So the economy has become such a success, per your statement, that it's been a success in the last four years because all these immigrants have been contributing to the tax dollars that the government has been wanting. And so hence Medi California.

[Dean Withers]

So you'd agree that immigration is good for the economy?

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

The immigration issue is they're being paid less money than the average salary. So I don't understand how that's good for the American people. I think that if you can properly execute someone immigrating into this country legally and doing it rightfully and everything. Like, yes, you can manage the amount of. The amount of the way the economy is working.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah. I'm definitely a little bit confused on what you just shared with me, but we have a problem, and that is undocumented migration, correct?

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Yes.

[Dean Withers]

This is another reason why I say Donald Trump doesn't care about the American people. Because Donald Trump doesn't care. Mind if I finish? Go ahead. Because Donald Trump doesn't care about the southern border. I have a question for you.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Okay.

[Dean Withers]

If your house was burning down and a fire truck showed up to put the fire out and you told them to turn around because you wanted the insurance money from letting it burn, did you care about your house?

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Of course.

[Dean Withers]

No. So the idea would be if you let the house burn down to get the insurance money, you wouldn't care about your house. Would you agree with that?

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Yes.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Right. So when we have a crisis at the southern border and we have the fire truck, or in this case. Right. An amazing border bill that would have ended the crisis years ago, proposed to Congress by Lankford. A Republican endorsed. Sorry, a Trump endorsed Republican. And then Donald Trump turns around and calls up the Republicans in the House and the Senate and tells them to vote against the bill because he doesn't want to give the Democrats a win and he wants the ability to be able to campaign on the crisis at the southern border. Now, does Donald Trump care about the southern border?

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Right. So basically what you're doing is you're trying to attack and kind of depend. Deflate the right. Right. But at the end of the day, we gotta realize that, no, no side is potentially perfect. Cause clearly the Democrats are gonna see that the right are horrible, and the right's gonna see that the Democrats are also.

[Dean Withers]

But do you mind answering the question there? Cause I did make an important point there that I don't think should go unnoticed. Right. In the same way, in the hypothetical, if you let your house burn down and told the fire truck to turn away, you don't care about the house. And if Donald Trump lets the crisis at the southern border continue and tells, like the Republicans in the House and the Senate to turn the border bill around in 2022, he doesn't care about the southern border.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Look, the border is always going to have a crisis. There's human trafficking constantly. If you look at the narcotics, if you look at all these drug dealers that are coming in. Right.

[Dean Withers]

Hi, thanks for coming up, man. What's your name? Jordan. Jordan, nice to meet you. Dean, we have 3 minutes and 42 seconds left on the clock here. I would like to bring up a huge reason why I'd say that he doesn't care about the American people. Is that all right? Yeah. Cool. It's because how much he lies. Donald Trump is an incessant, like, unapologetic liar. He lied to the American public over 30,000 times while he was president. He told the biggest lie that any sitting president has ever told with the denial of the 2020 election. And what is the Achilles tendon to a democracy? An uninformed voter base. Trump has misled his voter base, has made them misinformed, has made them engage in fringe, conspiratorial hearsay by his incessant lies.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Okay, can you give me any reasons.

[Dean Withers]

Why you think Joe Biden cares about.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

American people more than Trump?

[Dean Withers]

Okay. I mean, yeah, sure. First of all, Kamala Harris is running for president right now.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

No, Joe Biden.

[Dean Withers]

Joe Biden, sure. Yeah. Because Joe Biden's the Democratic. Of course. Of course. Because Joe Biden passed four pieces of monumental legislation that benefited the low and the middle class more than it benefited the top 1%. We could talk about the PACT act, investing $800 million into the expansion of via healthcare benefits. We could talk about the Chips and Science act, bringing 20% of the global chip production back to here at home in America by 2030. We could talk about the infrastructure bill, investing $1 trillion into local communities across the U.S. spurring their economies and creating new construction jobs. Or we could talk about the Inflation Reduction act, investing millions of dollars into renewable energy resources to reduce inflation in the long term by addressing supply chain issues. Now, those are four big policies that I would say demonstrate Biden's care for the American people.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Okay, four years ago under Trump, did.

[Dean Withers]

You see benefits going towards immigrants and wars more than American people did we see. No. And we don't see that now.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

We don't see it now?

[Dean Withers]

No, bro. I moved here from Chicago, and four.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Years under Trump, I wasn't seeing immigrants sleeping outside of police stations, gathered in gangs and doing drugs outside police stations, living in high rise hotels, getting benefits.

[Dean Withers]

Oh, if you're just getting. There's. There's more immigrants coming into our country now than there was free money. That's true.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

But earlier, didn't you say it was the same?

[Dean Withers]

Oh, no, I said it's the same right now. So after Biden's executive order on the border, we have the same amount of daily crossings today across our southern border as we had at the end of.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Trump's term at the end of Trump, it was more.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, it was the same or more at the end of Trump's term, you.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Literally just said we have more immigrants coming in now.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. So over the four year presidency of Biden and Harris, there has been more migration across the southern border because of the revocal of title 42, causing a surge of entries into our country after Biden's. That was not going on during Trump, am I right? Yeah. Right. So we had lower crossings under Trump, but I don't think we could say because there's lower crossings under Trump than under Biden and Harris, that Biden and Harris caused that. Let me ask you a question or more. So make a statement. I'd look at the southern border like a river and I'd look at Title 42, what was enacted at the end of Trump's term because of COVID like a dam. As soon as that dam is lifted from the river, the water gushes through just like when Title 42 was reversed. And all these people that have been turned away for the last two years that are coming to our country because of economic disparities, onset by Covid in their own rushed into our country.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Sorry, I just had to very quickly. The one thing that I look at that shows how he cares for the American people is that he's a multi billionaire that chose to run for president. And he's one of the only presidents that's net worth has actually gone down. If he didn't care for the American people, why would he even go out of his way, lose his worth to run for president?

[Dean Withers]

Great question. And here's what I'd say. I'd say that Donald Trump has billions of dollars. Literally speaking, he doesn't care about money. He wants something else. He wants power. Right? And being able to force himself into the highest position of ranking power in the world is a big deal. And that's what he wants. He doesn't really care about the American people or else he would have enacted legislation for the low and middle class or else he would have not over tried to over.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Hey, before we go any further, we want to take a moment to say thanks so much to Stray Arrow News for powering the fact checks in this video. Stray Arrow News is an app and website that is on a mission to raise the bar on journalism. In a time of media bias and mistrust. Their team of journalists believe that unbiased news should be the standard and not just the exception. So they report down the middle with facts, delivering news without bias. Filter or Spin plus, their media Miss Tool allows you to discover news that's being underreported or not even reported at all by different sides of mainstream media. That's why we're so happy to be partnering with Stray Arrow News. The work they're doing gives us a complete picture of the news straight from our phones and tablets with their app. Go to san.com surrounded or click the link in the description to check it out. By clicking that link, you're not just supporting this channel. You're also supporting a group of journalists that are raising the bar on news and focusing on serving you unbiased, straight facts. Thanks again to Stray Arrow News for partnering with us on this episode. Now, let's get into it.

[Dean Withers]

My next claim is Kamala Harris would be a much better president than Donald Trump. All right.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

I don't believe that Kamala Harris would be a better president than President Trump. And the reason why I believe that is because Kamala Harris has had many chances. When she was a district attorney in San Francisco, she convicted more people of minor crimes than any other DA of San Francisco. And I know this, too, because I lived in San Francisco for a period of time, and I understand the criminal justice system to a certain extent. So Kamala Harris, if you have her as president, she's gonna go after people for minor offenses. She's gonna try to convict people for even marijuana, for example. I mean, come on, most people in this country have already been past this whole issue with cannabis and everything. And I think that's something that now that should be overlooked, and it should be something that should be legalized on a federal level as well. But I do believe that Kamala Harris, if she convicted people of small, petty stuff like, like people having minor amount of marijuana and had the highest conviction rate in San Francisco, how can you have someone like that as president? And she also was also married into the Getty family, John Paul Getty. That is an elite family in the state of California. So how is it that you're gonna say, oh, Kamala Harris is better than President Trump?

[Dean Withers]

Of course. First, let's respond to a couple of your claims there. How many people did she convict? Not a clue. 45. And what did she do in 2014?

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

45. You're saying she convicted only 45 people of possession of marijuana?

[Dean Withers]

Yes. And what did she.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

That is not true.

[Dean Withers]

That.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

That is not true that she convicted only 45 people of marijuana. If she was a district attorney and she had other DAs in the district.

[Dean Withers]

Attorney'S office, do you mind if I finished talking.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Prosecuting those small crimes.

[Dean Withers]

Yes, sir. Do you mind if I.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

She had more than 45 convictions in that office alone.

[Dean Withers]

So, yeah. She only had over. You.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Had you. You've had a lot of time to talk. I mean, you had the whole time. I really don't have a lot of time here, but. So what I'm saying is I just.

[Dean Withers]

I just want to be able to finish this without 45 convictions.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

But you're not giving me facts.

[Dean Withers]

Yes. So. Yeah. So while she is da, it is a. Welcome in. Hi. Hi. So do you mind if I give you my reasons why I think that Harrison would be a better president?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

If you want.

[Dean Withers]

Cool. Yeah. So there's two main categorical reasons why I say Harrison would be better than Trump. The first category is character. The second category is policy. Let's start off with character. First of all, Trump is a sexual abuser. Trump is a felon. Trump is a fraudster. Trump is an election denier. He's a dictator on day one. Want to be fascist? Okay. Kamala Harris is none of those. Kamala Harris wants to protect and preserve democracy. She wants to fight for the freedoms of all Americans, especially the 170 million American women and girls. And then we could reference policy next. If you want to respond to character, go for it. If you want me to hop straight in policy, I could do that, too.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Well, you know, starting with character, I technically do not think she's a good person. Speaking of which, you know, if we're bringing up stuff from the past, we can say she slept with Willie Brown, broke up a family just to get her job, and while she was there, she used a firm that was putting people in jail that had false positives on drug tests, and she knew they had false positives. She admitted to that. And she was still putting mainly black and brown people in jail. Considering I'm both, that is very much a big issue for me. And also that women. A woman shouldn't represent, they should just sleep to the top for their job. They should actually work hard for it. I generally don't think that she's a good representative. There's plenty of other women out there.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah. I have a question. How many votes did she get in a run for ag? Do you know? How many votes did she get in a run?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

We're talking about character, though.

[Dean Withers]

Of course.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Character and morals. And if we're mentioning character and morals here, she's clearly not a good person.

[Dean Withers]

Responding to your claim, just like she.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

You had mentioned all that stuff about Trump, which could be true.

[Dean Withers]

I'm referencing your claim that she. I'm referencing your claim that she slept to the top. How many votes did she get when she was running for AG&DA in the state of California?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

But that has nothing to do with.

[Dean Withers]

The fact it does. She got 4.5 million votes in total, 80 million for her run for AGRDA. I don't remember which one. Then 4.4 million for the other one. I have a question. You're saying that she slept her way to the top. How many of those 4.5 million people that voted for her did she have to sleep?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Well, you know, obviously we're in California and this is pretty corrupt, but to say that she needed the votes of most. Most people that matter, which is person she slept with could actually overturn and hide these votes just like they did with the election.

[Dean Withers]

Listen, the idea that women have to sleep with men to get into position, and that's exactly what she said, is a misogynistic lie.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Bull.

[Dean Withers]

One moment.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

She's saying that.

[Dean Withers]

Do you mind if I finish talking real quick?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

We have to open our legs to get jobs. That's exactly how she used it.

[Dean Withers]

Do you mind if I just finished talking real quick? Also, I would like to finish out this conversation. There's a lot of red flags up, though. So saying that women have to sleep with men to get into positions of power is a misogynistic lie. What you're doing.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

She just did that.

[Dean Withers]

One moment.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

That's what she represents.

[Dean Withers]

What you are doing. What you are doing is you are taking Kamala Harris, you are taking her character, you are taking her proposed policy, you are taking her intelligence and you're taking her wisdom, and you're throwing it out of the window. Because when you say that the only reason in her position of power today is because she slept with a man that had been legally divorced for three years is a lie. She got 4.5 million votes to get into AG and EA and slept with zero of them. The question I have for you. You don't know how you feel about Donald Trump?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

No.

[Dean Withers]

Okay.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Absolutely not.

[Dean Withers]

She slept with 4.5 million people to get into power.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

But the one.

[Dean Withers]

Are you serious?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Was the most important person.

[Dean Withers]

Did you just say that she had to sleep with 4.5 million people?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

I didn't say that. I said that she slept with one of the most relevant people to get her job, Willie Brown.

[Dean Withers]

And how would Willie Brown get her the 4.5 million votes in her run.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

For AG and D.C. she was in the same position she needed to get.

[Dean Withers]

But we have, we have, we have civil and electoral processes. We are a constitutional republic with democratic processes. Yes, I do. And you're saying that she somehow circumvented these civil electoral processes.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

I don't hate women. Guys, just letting you know.

[Dean Withers]

Welcome down. I would really like to see if we could have a productive conversation about this point. Well, I just want to start off by saying that you seem to attack Trump for his character. But then when like Kamala is attacked for her character, it like doesn't matter. So why do you think that Kamala Harris is a bad person? For reasons that have been stated. Can you repeat them? She's slept with people to get up to her rankings. She hasn't really done all too much as vice president in my opinion. I would like to say that is false. She's passed more tie breaking votes in the Senate than any VP in American history. She's also helped the Biden Harris administration influence some of the most monumental legislation in modern US history. I'm gonna name four pieces of legislation that the Biden Harris administration influence to get past that benefits the low, that benefited the low in the middle class more than rich people. And I want to see if you could do the same for Donald Trump while he was president. They influenced the PACT act, the Chips and Science act, the American Rescue Plan, the infrastructure bill, and the Inflation Reduction Act. If you'd like, I could explain to you how those benefited the lower in the middle class more so than top 1%. But now I'll just simply ask you that same question. Can you name one bill that Trump influenced to get past that benefited the liberal in the middle class more so than rich people? I really can't. So then how could you say that Kamala Harris hasn't done anything when you know so little about what Trump did while he was comparatively to what Trump has done in the past, she really hasn't done that much. I just told you four pieces of monumental legislation that she did in things to get passed that were beneficial. Beneficial but not quite to what Trump did. Well, you can't even tell me what Trump did. I asked you. You can tell. I know, but you can just tell from when he was president that it.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Was just, it was way better and.

[Dean Withers]

Kamala's been hiding and probably puppeteering Biden. Like you can't deny that. Do you see how that's just a conspiracy theory? I know it's a conspiracy, but the.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Evidence is kind of there.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so what's the evidence for this idea that Biden hasn't done Anything for America. Sorry.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Okay, that's smooth.

[Dean Withers]

You just kind of slid into.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

I think a lot of what we're hearing from you right now is just what I call book smart. Like, you probably are more knowledgeable than a lot of this, a lot of us on these policies and all that. That's not necessarily applicable to real life living. If we look at one of. In my opinion, one of the most important roles as a president is to keep our country safe. Kamala Harris, she's the border czar, and she has completely failed at that. She's let in millions and millions of illegal immigrants. And you've been asking us a lot of pointers. So I want to ask you, do you know what the average amount of fentanyl per pound that has come through during Biden's administration versus the Trump administration?

[Dean Withers]

No. I'd assume that it's much higher under the Biden. Harris, do you know what amount of drugs processed across the southern border are processed by US Citizens?

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

But I'm talking about illegals right now, so I asked you a question. Okay. So during Trump's administration, there was on average about 2,500 pounds of fentanyl that came across the border.

[Dean Withers]

Okay.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

In my opinion, that's £2,500 too much.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

During the Biden and Harris administration, it's exceeding £14,000 per year. Where do you think that's going? That's going to our youth, that's going to high schoolers, college students, that's going to adults. These innocent people are dying because of what is happening. And if you look at her, what I think it was just this past month, they just admitted that they have lost over 300,000 illegal children. Where do you think these children are going? They're trafficked. And I'm extremely passionate about human trafficking. I think it's one of the most important focuses that we need to have right now. And in my opinion, again, and in my experience, within human trafficking, the conservatives are the ones pushing this. Kamala is ignoring it. Kamala is not the one going to visit the border. She went and visited the border. She went to the only part of the border that is safe that they're not coming through. And she said, we don't have a problem here. Nobody's coming through. That's B.S. she's lying. And you say Trump's lie. I hate all kinds of lies. But when you can say Trump's an avid liar, you got to look at how Kamala's lying. During her speech at the DNC last week, she was saying that those individuals at January 6th were armed individuals with an intention of shooting people in the Capitol. That is not true. So I can admit where Trump has lied in the past, everybody lies. That's not good. But you also need to have the balls to admit where Kamala has lied, where Biden has lied, where their administration has lied.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah. So first of all, I think that it is important to hold all politicians, everybody, in a position of power accountable. I'm not going to sit here and say that Biden has never lied a day in his life. I'm not going to sit here and say that Harris has never lied a day in his life. I can't confirm that Harris said that at the dnc. Sierra said that at the southern border. If she did say those things, yes, those would be lies. Now, you want to talk about this.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Wouldn'T that be a question of her character then?

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, of course. But what I'm voting for here isn't going to be the candidate that doesn't lie at all. It's going to be the candidate that lie less within this respect. And no one lies more than Donald Trump. Back to our conversation. Why do you respond?

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Character affects somebody's, I guess, impact as a leader.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, sure. Because I think when we're voting for someone, when we have a leader, this isn't just someone who's going to try to impact our lives in good ways through policy, but it's also someone that we'd want to be ourselves. We are championing. Sorry, we are championing these two people, Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. We want to see virtues reflected in them that we would also like reflected in us. And when we're platforming Donald Trump, who's been held civilly liable for sexual abuse, has sexualized a fifth grader on CBS in 1992, has cheated on three of his wife's one with a porn star, and was convicted of 34 felonies and tried to stage acute at all overthrow our government. We don't see those good virtues reflected. You said you wanted to talk about the border. Do you mind if I ask you a question about that?

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Go for it.

[Dean Withers]

Phenomenal. So Biden and Harris, they attempted to influence bipartisan border legislation in 2023. It was Lankford's bill, who was a Republican, that was also Trump endorsed. This was a good border act. It would have phenomenally reduced the impact of the crisis. It would have reduced crossings. It would have made the asylum seeking processes quicker. It was a good bill. But what happened was Trump called the Republicans in the House and the Senate and told them to vote against it. How can you say that Donald Trump cares about the southern border when he told Republicans in Congress to vote against this bill so the crisis would continue and he could campaign on that today to convince people like you to vote for him.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Real quick, everybody. So during Trump's administration, in exchange for $25 million to build a border wall that would protect our country, he had an act that he wanted to. To pass that would allow illegal immigrant children that have graduated throughout high school to be accepted through.

[Dean Withers]

Am I answering my question?

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

No, because you're just asking education policy questions. This isn't impacting America. So compare to your.

[Dean Withers]

How else do. How else do presidents impact America policy?

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

And Executive Trump wanted to pass this. This law that would give these graduating illegal immigrants citizenship. Guess who shut it down? The Biden and Harris administration. How they vote. They voted against the Biden.

[Dean Withers]

Harrison.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Yes.

[Dean Withers]

Hello. Howdy. Welcome back.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Well, okay, so you keep bringing up the border, and you keep bringing up the Senate bill.

[Dean Withers]

Lankford's bill. Absolutely.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

The Senate bill never passed.

[Dean Withers]

You want to know why?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

What did pass was HR2, which, again, has been sitting on Schumer's desk, which actually closed the border, talking to Brandon Judd, president of Border Patrol. What I can tell you is the Senate bill was better than what it is now, with 14,000 people coming through the border every day and 300,000 migrant children missing, feared sold into sex slavery. Now, HR2 did close the border, and that is the one that actually passed the House that Schumer has ignored. So I'm really sick of hearing, oh, Trump stopped the Senate bill. The Senate bill didn't pass.

[Dean Withers]

You know why?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Because it was a bad bill. It codified the invasion.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so first of all, no, it was not a bad bill. And second of all, the reason it didn't pass is because Trump called the Republicans in Congress and told them not to pass it. Right, we see. One second, do you mind if I. Do you mind? Do you mind? Do you mind if I.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Congress doesn't vote on.

[Dean Withers]

Finish without interruption.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Congress does not vote on Senate bills.

[Dean Withers]

Yes, we would see that Senate. Like if a bill is made in the Senate, it'd go to the House. Back to the Senate.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Exactly. And it never made it out of the Senate. So therefore, it's.

[Dean Withers]

It's the House. It went to the House. Right.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

And no, it never made it out of the Senate. I, I talked to Senator Mike Lee about that. It never got out of the Senate because it was a bad bill.

[Dean Withers]

However, I just want to.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

HR2.

[Dean Withers]

Did you mind if I finish?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

HR2 did get out of the house.

[Dean Withers]

And with all due respect, with all.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Due respect, you don't want to hear about HR2 that actually secured the order.

[Dean Withers]

I would love to hear about HR2. However, I would also like to finish what I was saying about.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Well, everybody said for the last 19 minutes what you had to say about this. Okay, I got a minute. As far as Kamala Harris being better than Trump, she's destroyed the border. She's been absent. Nobody knows where she is. Six months ago, even the media was saying she was the worst vice president in history. And as far as.

[Dean Withers]

How has she destroyed the border?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

She's hasn't done anything about it. They have walked away. She hasn't gone there. She hasn't talked to border patrol. She hasn't met with border.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Oh, I'm confused, because the last person that came up said that she had gone there. Now you're saying that she had an.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Hour from San Antonio after she met with Lester Holt, and Lester Holt said, you haven't been to the border. She goes, I haven't been to Europe either.

[Dean Withers]

So that was in September of 2021.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

You know, that's who we're talking about.

[Dean Withers]

So that was in 2021. She went lie. I would like to preface here that the Biden administration has passed an executive order on the border. And because it's today, because it's an election, Trump's term, and. No, it's not just Linkburg. Lankford's bill through the Senate was a bad bill. Called them and told the ministry.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Never left the Senate if you were starving. Never left the.

[Dean Withers]

One second, ma', am, if you were.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

No, you won seconds. We're not. We're not going to get.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. I just. I feel like I can't get anywhere with you.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

You, because you.

[Dean Withers]

So how do we find middle ground? We do that by allowing each other to speak without interruption. I'm willing to do that for you. Are you willing to do that for me?

[Conservative Female Supporter]

Super fun.

[Dean Withers]

My next claim is conservatives don't actually care about family values. Yeah.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

So I don't agree with that at all, whatsoever. Us conservatives main core issue is caring about family, keeping the family unit together.

[Dean Withers]

Mind if I ask you a question? Yeah, of course, Go ahead. So then why do you turn around and champion Donald Trump, who's cheated on three of his wives, one with a porn star, and has ongoing civil litigation against him in which he was determined that he was guilty of sexual abuse? That's something that's very personal.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

And you have to have been there in order to know what exactly goes on.

[Dean Withers]

Marriages are very tough.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

There's something that's. Something that's very difficult.

[Dean Withers]

And again, it's.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

We don't know what happened, you know.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, he has failed marriages, but many.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

People have failed marriages.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Do you mind if I ask you another question? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. So you said that you really care about the family unit. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I don't see how, like any conservative or Trump supporter could say that they care about the family unit because of how hard y' all fight for pro life legislation. So voting for pro life legislation without good reason, what this leads to is the destruction of the family unit. You're shifting the American focus away from financially, well, adults that consent to start a family, that desire to have kids, to forcing 18, 19, 20 year old boys and girls into starting a family because the state isn't allowing the woman the access to health care that she deserves. It leads to higher rates of poverty, leads to lower rates of employment, lower rates of education, and lower qualities of life, all things considered. Another point would be. Right. Conservative stance on being anti ivf. Right. I think that IVF serves as a savior for, like, what. For family units that are wanted to be by many of American citizens.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Your first point of being for pro life is that is a human life. That is a child in and of itself. I always hear constantly the argument of.

[Dean Withers]

You know, if men were the ones having babies, then it would be a different situation.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Maybe, but that's not the case. The case is that women are the ones that bear children, and that is a life unto itself, and therefore it is deserving of its own human rights and its own human life.

[Dean Withers]

And you brought a mental.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Any points which. Okay, repeat for me so I can.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, yeah, of course. If you feel free to, like, you know, cut me off if I'm talking too fast or if you want me to slow down. Yeah, yeah, of course. You know, I want to make sure that we could try to have.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Oh, yeah, yeah, me too.

[Dean Withers]

My other points were being anti ivf. I think that IVF allows. Right. American citizens to start a family when they wouldn't otherwise be able to. Being anti IVF prevents them from starting a family. Another point would be being anti LGBTQ plus, saying that you care about family, family values, unless it's two men or unless it's two women, and then it's morally abominable. And then. Yeah, the third point would be just champion Donald Trump, who's cheated on three of his wives, one with a porn star, has sexualized little girls and has been held civilly liable for sexual abuse.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

So on one hand, I kind of of agree with you because I don't think that the average conservative cares about family enough. But I would say that conservatives care a lot more about the family unit than liberals. And then people on the left especially, like, was brought up when it comes to the pro life issue, when it comes to promoting the whole lgbt, like, all of these things are generally anti family. And liberals are also generally very individualistic, while conservatives have always been more on the side of conserving the family unit.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, I don't. I would strongly disagree that liberals are going to be more individualistic. I mean, like, you know, if we just look at Trump and the policy he passed while he was president, can you name one policy he influenced to get past that benefited the low or the middle class more so than the top 1%? I don't know the has.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

When I'm speaking about individualistic. On the terms of economics. Yes, I would say conservatives are more individualistic, as in we're not socialists. We're not wanting to redistribute wealth.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Yes, Socialist.

[Dean Withers]

Real quick, can you define socialism for me?

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

When I'm speaking about socialism, I'm talking about the redistribution of wealth and, like, promoting the welfare system.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. So I mean, socialism, like, is just a mode of production. So it just has to do with the workers owning the means of production. The only reason, like I'm pointing this out is because I feel like maga. Republicans, conservatives as a whole have really misconstrued socialism, communism, etc. But one last question for you here. You said that promoting the LGBTQ community is anti family. How so?

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Because, for instance, I mean, conservatives and people on the right have more.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, sorry.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Hello, sir.

[Dean Withers]

Nice you to meet. Hey, nice to meet you too. You've been excited. You've been excited to come up here. I think this one's interesting. So first, I also wanted to know why you think Democrats are better at supporting family values than conservatives. Of course. Great question. So first of all, we look at this from, like, an economic perspective. Sure. I'd say caring for the low and middle class, promoting, like, social. Social benefits. A good example would be the child tax credit. Kamala Harris wants to raise that to $6,000 for everybody. Vote me out soon. I'm going to make my point, then they're gonna vote me out. I'm gonna go. Give me one second, guys. Give me one second. I think what's really interesting. And I wanted you to bring it up, but I'm just gonna bring it up again. You were talking about when to start a family. I think that's really interesting.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

I think the choice to start a.

[Dean Withers]

Family is when you have sex personally. And, you know, someone will probably be more informational than me about this, but I think that having sex is when you take that risk, if you want.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

To call it that, take that risk.

[Dean Withers]

Of starting a family. It's your responsibility. Responsibility to become a parent, become a father, a mother. And I think I forgot what it was. Ibf. Is that what you said?

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

That helps?

[Dean Withers]

Is that, does that help with abortion?

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Is that correct?

[Dean Withers]

No. IVF is in virtual fertilization. Right. This allows. Right. Certain, like, partners who wouldn't be able to conceive, like naturally to still have a child. And I would like to respond to your claim there about this idea that engaging in sex is when you commit to starting a family. Sure. That's a great reason why I think conservatives don't actually care about family values. We know that our youth will continuously engage in intercourse. We know that we will see people that do this for fun. Outside of the context of wanting to start a family. I'd say. Right. Pushing the traditional value that, you know, sex leads to a kid and you're obligated to that, you have to deal the consequence. Right. Is antithetical to caring about family values because when you do that, you force unwanted children into unready households. I had more. Okay. Howdy.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Hi. So the claim that you're saying about conservatives not caring about family values, let's kind of backtrack a little bit. Because Donald Trump himself, I think he's kind of a new wave of Republicanism, and a lot of people kind of seem to forget that. So conservatives, yes, the old Republican Party, they did see that the old fashioned traditional values maybe were not ideal for certain family dynamic situations that you're claiming, you know, gay, lesbian, whatever. But I think the Republican Party has definitely changed its viewpoint and its value system quite a little bit. And now with laws and legislations, you can, I can pretty much guarantee you that almost every Republican in this room would not be opposed of LGBT rights and people marrying people of the same, same sex. So that's one claim. And then if we want to talk about family values, the Democrats, they tend to hyper sexualize children a lot in Hollywood. I work in the entertainment industry and I constantly see many investors constantly pushing for these rhetorics. And there's nothing to be said about it. And unfortunately, I'M exposing myself a little bit by just saying this because it's very controversial for me to work in an industry that's constantly fighting for children to consistently be huge human trafficked in Hollywood. I have so many friends that have tried to be sexualized under this propaganda, and it's really saddening. You know, I can agree because I used to be a liberal myself, so I can side with you on certain things. But, you know, my mother, who grew up in a very democratic vision, she herself also views that abortion is very sinful. And it's unfortunate. I can agree with you on the fact that people should have a right to their own body. And we're not saying that they shouldn't. That's why. Hence Donald Trump did state many times that the state should be involved with those legislations and not himself in situations such as people who are raped and all of those nuances, you know, it's, it's. Yes, go ahead.

[Dean Withers]

So just a quick question about abortion. Do you agree with, like giving the states the ability to legislate on that?

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Well, we give the states legislation on many things.

[Dean Withers]

So you do agree. So do you think that abortion is murder?

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

I think it is, because.

[Dean Withers]

So do you think that we should leave murder up to the states?

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Well, I think leaving the murder cases up to Democrats is a little appalling if you look at the, the crime rates that are happening with all these children being killed and murdered constantly. You know, Catholics believe that when you kill a child, you know, that's basically the ultimate mortal sin. And there are many sins that we can discuss. Donald Trump having affairs. Yes. Nobody's denying all those cases. But at the end of the day, the biggest mortal sin that we talk about in the Bible is killing another human. So a human who has a heartbeat in the womb. Yes. I'm not opposed to people having the right to their body, but I think at the end of the day, you know, if you were to ask yourself if God was real, you better hope and wish that he isn't. Because you go to heaven and he asks you why you killed all those humans. It's compared to genocide with Hitler.

[Dean Withers]

Here's my thoughts on that. So, first of all, I don't want to tell you that your religion is false, that it's not my goal. In fact, that's not what I'm going to do.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Of course not.

[Dean Withers]

I want to take a different approach. So I'd say that Christianity is inherently faith based. It's something that you can't justify outside of your own faith. It's something that has a lot of philosophical issues. It's something that exists in a realm apart from how we would conventionally justified policy that we'd want to pass. Say, when we're justifying economic policy, you know, we'd evaluate its outcomes, we'd look at what it cost to the people, and we'd use that information, that empirical evidence to justify if it's good or bad. But when you legislate on the basis of your faith, it doesn't allow you that room because you're just kind of using, like, your speculatory beliefs to justify the legislation. Correct. And I'd say one last thing here, right? During, like, antebellum era slavery here at home in the US we saw Christian national using, like, Leviticus 25, verses 44 through 46 of the Bible to justify the enslavement of black people at the time, taking away their rights. So my question to you would be, what is the logical difference between Christians 200 years ago using the Bible to justify the enslavement of black people and a Christian today using the Bible to take away access to health care from women? I don't think we could think of a logical distinction there. And that's why I'd say faith is best to be practiced in the confines of Europe, own home and your own life.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

So then why did Gavin Newsom ban people from practicing and praying in their own home? During the Biden administration, Gavin Newsom locked everyone down, fined them $900 just for practicing their religion. There are many people in Pasadena. There is a Pasadena church locally, and they were fined $900. Gavin Newsom prioritized gyms, facilities, recreational centers, and Catholic nuns were describing their distress over this. So what happened to freedom of speech? What happened to democracy? Because clearly you guys are constantly promoting that, right? But it seems like it's a communistic approach to our society.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, can you define communism for me real quick?

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Communism is someone who constantly dictates what's happening, and they average out everyone for the minority. For the majority. Everyone has to have the same houses. I mean, you look at Cuba, everybody has to have the same houses. If you go to a Latin American country, they are not pro abortion. They are not.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so real quick, quick. That's not what communism is. Communism is a stateless, classless, moneyless society. Right? And like, once again, right. This rhetoric from a. Right. Just kind of calling anything that they don't like communism just kind of reminds me of the Red Scare.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Well, it's the same way with Democrats I would like something. You tend to attack the right because you hate everything they go for. The LGBTQ communities, they are constantly promoting propaganda.

[Dean Withers]

Clarify this. You just said if I don't like.

[Conservative Male with Religious Views]

Democrats, Democrats are constantly pushing for openness and acceptance with the LGBTQ community and many organizations. And then guess what? As soon as you go against the rhetoric, as soon as you believe in God, all these LGBT communities are.

[Dean Withers]

Yes. Okay. Thank you for the conversation. Welcome back.

[Republican Supporter]

Yeah, actually, let me check in really quick. Of course, there's a lot of different claims, different topics that was on this exact question. But one thing I do want to state from the beginning is this debate is Democrats versus Republicans, not Trump versus whoever they have in office. Kamala.

[Dean Withers]

Or whatever.

[Republican Supporter]

So I really want to focus on Republican policies have been pushed throughout history to now and not separate things to do, individuals say. So I want to go on to abortion because abortion was talked about a lot when it comes to family values.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah.

[Republican Supporter]

I really don't think when. If a party is pushing for adoption to raise a child versus murder, that's not shying away from family values. That's not against family values. Because if that was really true, how come in pretty much every single state to date, if somebody is to term or carrying a child and they get murdered is a double murder? It's not a single murder, it's a double murder.

[Dean Withers]

Sure.

[Republican Supporter]

So if the judicial system. If the judicial system looks at it that way, shouldn't abortion be looked at the same way? Or is it based on the person decided, oh, yeah, I could kill somebody or not.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, I could explain that to you. So first of all, I would like to tell you why I'm pro choice. That's because I don't value. Right. A unicellular life form that doesn't have the ability to display, like, first person subjective experiences. I don't value the fetus until it has that ability. That comes at about 20 through 24 weeks. But now that we got that out of the way, you do ask a great question. How can I say that abortion isn't murder, then turn around and support legislation that would like, you know, allow someone that kills a mother that is pregnant to be charged with double homicide? Well, I could tell you through an analogy. Let's say you have a car. What kind of car did you have?

[Republican Supporter]

I drive a Malibu.

[Dean Withers]

You drive a Malibu. Okay. So if you go up to your Malibu, I mean, after we're done debating here, and you break the windshield, did you do anything wrong? I mean, no, it's your car. It's your property, you make that decision?

[Republican Supporter]

It depends on what view you look at.

[Dean Withers]

Well, I mean. Well, let's think about it this way. If you go up to your car and you consent to breaking your car's windshield, you didn't do anything wrong there. You have a right to do that. But if someone else just walking down the street goes up and breaks your car's windshield without your consent, did they do something?

[Republican Supporter]

So I, I mean, if you, if you, if you. Okay, for example, let's say this. If I go out on the street right now.

[Dean Withers]

Wait, do you mind just answering my question so I could explain this analogy to you?

[Republican Supporter]

Go ahead, go ahead.

[Dean Withers]

So if someone else, like walking up this street, breaks your car's windshield without your consent, did they do something?

[Republican Supporter]

I agree. Yeah.

[Dean Withers]

And that's the same way I think about, right, the right to an abortion. I would define murder as the unjustified termination of a human being's life. And I'd say it is justified when the mother would do it as she would have the right to, as a fetus is presiding within your uterus. But if not, some non consenting third party walks up and unalives her and the fetus within her room without her consent, that is unjustified. Good to meet you. Good to meet you as well, man.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

All right, so I think your first claim, you were saying that because Donald Trump has this past and this history, that therefore he's anti family and then therefore the entire Republican base is anti family. Is that your argument?

[Dean Withers]

I'd like to make two corrections here.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Sure.

[Dean Withers]

So first of all, that's not like the only reason why I'd say this. It's just like one of, it's one of your arguments. And then, and then second of all, I wouldn't say that every conservative ever on the face of, you know, planet earth is, you know, doesn't actually care about family values for this reason. I'd just say that this is going to be typically true.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Okay, so you think just because Donald Trump is the Republican candidate, that therefore typically conservatives or Republicans are anti fan?

[Dean Withers]

Well, I'd say the consideration of who the Republican Party is championing Donald Trump, a consideration of like the consequences of pro life legislation, while not having good reason to cut that legislation in the first place, along with being anti IVF and anti LGBTQ are gonna be for good reasons.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Right.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

So, okay, so let's look at Democrats then. Are you gonna say that Democrats are anti family because they elected someone like Bill Clinton and he cheated on Hillary with Monica Lewinsky like, is that, you know, because I think if you are going to say that Trump makes the Republicans anti family, you're going to have to say the same thing about Democrats and some of the candidates that they've elected.

[Dean Withers]

Not necessarily. Right. I think if, like Bill Clinton.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Hey, let him talk, let him talk.

[Dean Withers]

When Democrats voted for Bill Clinton, did they know, like, because they had a crystal ball that he was going to end up chasing cheated on his wife with Monica Lewinsky?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

No, they didn't.

[Dean Withers]

But when you're going to vote for Trump in November, do you have the prior knowledge that he cheated on three of his wife, he sexualized a little girl on it.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Yes. But also, Democrats voted not to impeach him. Okay, right. So aren't all the Democrats in the House that voted to not impeach him now anti, anti family?

[Dean Withers]

Well, first of all, I gave you four considerations. Why I'd say that the conservative voter base is going to be anti family. That's to be one. But I would say that, yes. Well, right.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

We have to look at one argument at a time.

[Dean Withers]

Well, I mean, I wouldn't say that, yeah, this alone is necessary in saying that all conservatives are anti family. I'd say it's one of the considerations. I would say that, yeah, like the Democrats in Congress that didn't elect to impeach, like Bill Clinton probably didn't do the right thing there. But then additionally, I'd say even when we look at legislation from the Democratic platform versus the Republican one, I mean, the Democratic platform, you know, wants to, wants to federally protect all women and girls or right to access abortion. Right. That's going to make sure that unwanted kids aren't placed into unready households. The Democrat platform wants to raise the child tax credit to $6,000.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Right. So I mean, you're being pushed on this argument and then you're just bringing up other arguments. You're not actually addressing my claims. But additionally, I don't think you can say, oh, just because I'm going to vote for this candidate because I like their policies means I'm therefore anti fantasy. And I think you have a lot of Republicans, myself included, that are very, that are very profamily and that, you know, want those things and are disgusted by Trump's previous behavior. But that's not our voting philosophy. Our voting philosophy is based off of policies and what we think are going to be best for the country. That doesn't mean we don't have disagreements with Trump and his personal life. And I think with literally any candidate, you're going to have disagreements on its different policies that they like and different personal behaviors and actions in their life.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

That does not mean that therefore I'm anti family because I'm going to vote for Donald Trump.

[Dean Withers]

Well, here's the way I'd put it. I don't see how you could call yourself pro family turn around platform. Donald Trump with his, you know, anti family past, cheated on three of the wives, one with a porn star, and vote for legislation that in turn is anti family as well.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Again, I said that's not our voting philosophy.

[Dean Withers]

You said that you voted on the context of policy, but this is also considering the policy that he wants to enact. Thanks for the conversation, man.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

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[Dean Withers]

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[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

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[Dean Withers]

Learn [e-mail] My next claim is Democrats are more patriotic than Republicans. I'm sorry, I'll let you go next.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

I'm gonna be quick.

[Dean Withers]

Hello, sir. I would, I would love to talk to him. Hey, welcome back down.

[Moderate or Centrist Participant]

Okay, just for everyone's sake, I want.

[Dean Withers]

You to tell me why you support your claim and then I'll leave and people can. Yeah, bet you. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. I like this guy. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. So, yeah, I think that Democrats are more patriotic than Republicans because Republicans are currently platform forming Donald Trump. And Donald Trump had like attempted to launch a coup on our federal government in an attempt to overturn and rig the results of the 2020 election. And there's four reasons I say this. The first reason I say this is Donald Trump capitalized on the January 6 riots to pressure Senate in to postpone it in the vote. The second reason I say this is because Donald Trump sent fake slates of electorates to seven different states to cast fake certificates of ascertainment into college to be certified as real by Mike Pence. The third reason I say this is because while he pressured Mike Pence into signing those fake certificates of officer attainment. And the fourth reason I say this is. Well, this process of trying to circumvent our civil and electoral processes and literally trying to rig the outcome of the 2020 election is a direct threat and attack on our government and on our democracy. And it is ignoring the voice of every single American citizen that voted in the 2020 election. You and everybody around this room and anybody at home. If you voted in the 2020 election, Trump tried to make your vote null by installing fake certificates of ascertainment to make himself the president again. And that is the worst internal attack that we have had on our country since the Civil War. Okay, I don't agree, but you guys can vote me out now.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Hello. Nice to meet you. Okay, so really bold, clear statement that Democratics are very patriotic. Let's talk about the actions of the Democrats being very glorious in loving our country.

[Dean Withers]

Well, I would like to clarify.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Yeah, clarify.

[Dean Withers]

The claim is not that Democrats are very patriotic. It is that they are more patriotic than Republicans. But I apologize for interrupting you. Okay.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

No, but I would like clarity on what are those actions, because in my understanding of Democrats being very patriotic is destroying the nuclear family, burning down flags, burning down buildings. I mean, we see just destruction in our cities. Did you, like, see the trash and all the homelessness going out in la? What is patriotic about supporting all of that? What is patriotic about supporting all the drugs that are coming in, all the things that we're allowing, the human sex trafficking, allowing all these things and policies going on? Like, what is patriotic about that? What screams I love America of people?

[Dean Withers]

You said that Democrats support, right?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

No, no, I'm just asking, like, what are the patriotic acts that show. Because what patriotism, what patriotism means to me is kneeling for those who have sacrificed for our country. My father has served 30 years in the military, right? That is 30 years that he is not getting back, that he had fought for his country, laid down his life for. What is patriotic that the Democrats are doing that are saying, hey, I'm going to lay my life down and not be egotistic and individualistic, and I'm going to serve and look out for others, look out for the next generation. What is it? So that's what I'm asking to make that statement clear. What does that look like at the Democratic Party?

[Dean Withers]

I actually think that's a great question. And the answer to your question would be a fight to protect and preserve the state of our democracy. I think that you listed off a whole cohort of claims there that were typically engaged in by Democrats that have been anti patriot, such as burning the flag, such as burning down buildings in the riots. And I agree with you. Right. I think that those are clear displays of anti patriotic behaviors. Do I necessarily disagree with them? All the time. No, I don't think that it's wrong to burn the American flag if it's in protest of actions of the American government. But my claim here is, is that there's nothing less patriotic than supporting Donald Trump, a man that has already tried to destroy our country internally by overthrowing the results or, sorry, attempting to overthrow the results of the 2020.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

I completely understand that statement. I don't agree with that. But we're not talking about Donald Trump. We're talking about your statement that Democratic are patriotic. So I'm asking about the actions are what? Because we can keep tying in Kamala and Donald into this, but that they are not the reason of being a conservative or a Democrat. It's the morals, it's the values and the actions that you are reflecting.

[Dean Withers]

Of course I understand you and the morals and the values and the actions.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Reflected Democrat as a liberal, what you are, are you reflecting that's benefiting your country?

[Dean Withers]

Of course, Great question.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Socialism policies, these. Individual socialism policies, these I want to consume, these egotistic policies, these. Oh, you should worship in closed doors and proximities. Don't open the Bible in school, don't say the pledge allegiance. No. Yes. Just let me clarify, finish real quick. So all these things that we see, we're being forced as conservatives to shut that down, to be quiet, to be banned. So, so how are we talking about free speech, freedom of religion, loving and all this stuff? These are all things that you guys are proclaiming.

[Dean Withers]

But yeah. So do you agree with freedom of religion?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Of course.

[Dean Withers]

So then you wouldn't agree with Trump's attempted Muslim ban?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Again, we're not talking about Trump. I'm asking for policies. Talking about how our Democrats. Really?

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, sure. Patronizing. Let's go over them. So first, I think that, I think that fighting for the freedoms of all 170 million American women by reinstituting federal protections for access to health care, that's going to be caring about.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

So abortion.

[Dean Withers]

I think that, yes, I think that fighting.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Okay, just want to make that Clear. I'm sorry, I just want to make that clear because there's a lot of.

[Dean Withers]

Do you mind if I finish to do that?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

No, I just wanted to make that clear. So I'm on the same page. You can continue.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I obviously think being in a room surrounded by 20 conservatives, you're not going to look at access to abortion as health care. I think.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

No, I'm sorry.

[Dean Withers]

Continue. No worries.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

This is a dialogue. You want a good, fruitful dialogue? Let's continue. I'm apologizing. I just.

[Dean Withers]

Wait. Yeah. And like, I understand that there's going to be an ideological separation there, but from my side of the aisle, I absolutely think that this is something that should be federally protected. I think that infringing upon women's right to borrowing autonomy, bodily integrity, all because they want to preserve the life of a non sentient or sorry, like uni, a multicellular life form that doesn't.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Did your mom think. Thought that about you? She was about to. Like, she thought that you were just some, some cells.

[Dean Withers]

My mom. When I was where. I mean, it doesn't care whether she thought I was that.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

So you were just a bunch of cells. So that's what you're just believing in your.

[Dean Withers]

Well, I mean. Well, my particular claim was the reason why I'm pro choice is because I don't value the life of a uni or multi cell.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

But you have life.

[Dean Withers]

It doesn't have the ability to choose.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

To make that change. You get to make that choice by having life. And someone that doesn't have that voice to say like, oh, that's just a bunch of cells, just abort it. Where does that, where does that stand? How is that patriotic? How is that loving America?

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, because it protects access to health care. It protects killing babies, killing children. Okay, okay. So do you think abortion is murder?

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Yes.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so do you.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

I'm making that statement very.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so do you think that some women with IUDs are murderers then? Because it is the case in some contexts, an IUD will allow for conception to occur, meaning there's a unique human life there. But then it will imprint. It will, you know, it will prevent its implantation into the uterine lining, killing it.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

I don't support or believe in any of that. To be fair.

[Dean Withers]

That wasn't the question I asked you. I asked you if they were murderers.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

I have no comment on that.

[Dean Withers]

Well, didn't you just say that abortion was murder because it was killing a unique human life? IUDs can and do kill Unique human life. So wouldn't this make women with IUDs murderers?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Well, I again, have no comment on that.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, well, see, now, now I could just reflect everything you were just asking me back to you.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Yeah.

[Dean Withers]

How can you stand for them?

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

You're not going to answer the question that I have asked you about again, how are these actions going to be more patriotic?

[Dean Withers]

I'd like to make it clear for the record that you can add a comment on that because you knew that.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

You support killing babies. Okay, good. We're gonna talk about ied. Let's move on forward. What other actions have you seen that the Democratic Party has just showed? Again, I love America.

[Dean Withers]

Of course. Right. So, I mean, you want to talk about. Thank you.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Thank you for your time.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

All right. So you said that Democrats are more patriotic than Republicans. Yes, because so can. I would like to hear. So how would you describe the epic failure with the Biden administration? And how would you see it as being patriotic in the way that we left Afghanistan?

[Dean Withers]

Well, if you want to reference our Afghanistan pullout as not being patriotic, well, we should blame that on Trump because he is the one that organized the pullout.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

That's actually wrong. He didn't.

[Dean Withers]

He did.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

I know the lawyers that worked with JAG for that operation, and it was a long strategic pullout over the course of several years. It was the Biden administration that book, when they were going to leave, it was their operation with the military complex under Austin that pulled that out. It was an epic failure. So are you agreeing that it was a failure?

[Dean Withers]

Okay, well, I mean, if you seem. You seemingly know more than me about the pullout from Afghanistan, as far as I'm aware, that was organized under Trump's administration.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Do you see giving the Qatari Embassy to the Taliban as patriotic?

[Dean Withers]

Well, I would like to just finish off here real quick. So you seemingly know more than me about our pull out from Afghanistan. I was under the impression.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Do you see what happened at Bagram Air Force Base as patriotic.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, ma', am, do you mind if I finish? We'll see.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

We'll see. See if I can interrupt you.

[Dean Withers]

Go ahead. Okay. Well, just what I. What I had hoped to say there was you seemingly know more than me about our pullout out of Afghanistan.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

It was one of the largest events that happened after Biden took office, and also one of what I would consider one of the worst and most humiliating for America.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, well, if I'm not. If I can't, like, finish my statements, I don't see how we're going to be able to have productive conversations.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Do you know how many people are left, American citizens are left in Afghanistan?

[Dean Withers]

I do not know how many American citizens are left in Afghanistan. Do you.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Are you familiar with any of the planes that have gone back to try and pull some of these people out?

[Dean Withers]

Do you know who's operating those planes?

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Do you know that the federal government isn't doing that, that it's nonprofit organizations and that a lot of those nonprofit organizations were grounded in other countries and not allowed to enter in? Okay, so operations.

[Dean Withers]

All right, let's look at the.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

So patriotically. So patriotically speaking, I mean, if I can't speak, is that something that's patriotic to you? Is leaving someone behind patriotic?

[Dean Withers]

Okay, well, if you will allow me to speak without.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

I'm waiting for you. Yeah, yeah, you're very quick with everybody else.

[Dean Withers]

Come on. If you will allow me to speak without interruption, we'll be able to have a hopefully productive conversation. Come on.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Point.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, let's go. Well, I'm. Seriously, I'm not gonna be able to make a point if you keep interrupting me. Like, that's just like, like.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

No, you're stalling. You're stalling. Make your point. Was it patriotic? Okay, yes or no. Was that patriotic for you? Okay, embarrassed.

[Dean Withers]

I'm not going to be able to give you a yes or no answer. I'm going to have to give you a fleshed out answer. I will address your point if you could.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Flushed out answer. You don't have a yes or no on patriotism. Leaving people behind that we spent over 20 years.

[Dean Withers]

You're still not allowing me to talk here. Do you mind if I finish, yes or no? Well, it's not a yes or no question.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

It is a yes or no question. I asked you yes or no. It's very direct. Yes or no.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so what you're trying to do is you're trying to force me into a yes or no question when I can't even respond to the claims that you've made. No, you're.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

You're dancing around the question because you don't want to answer it because it's going to make you look bad.

[Dean Withers]

So if the Afghanistan is not patriotic.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

I think any American citizen can tell that it was not patriotic. It made us look bad. It was embarrassing. We all had doubts on what was going to happen under this administration just based on that alone and the fact that we still have people there. That's embarrassing.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. All right. So if the Afghanistan pullout were to have occurred as the way that you Described it. It would have been anti patriotic. It would have been bad. Thirteen service members lost their lives. I don't think that they deserve to do that. I'm under the impression that Donald Trump had organized that pull out while he was president, executed under the Biden Harris administration. You're saying that's false? We'll leave it up to the fact checkers. And then I'd also. Please, please. Yo, hey, please, yo, let me finish, please. I've. Oh, so sorry, I forgot. You can cut that out. Please, just allow me to finish here.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

That's not patriotic.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so I would still say that attempting to overthrow our federal government with the use of a coup to rig an election would be less.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

What would you say to somebody?

[Dean Withers]

What would you. Hey, welcome down. How you doing?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Okay, so I feel like, oh, a lot of what this question is holding is what is in the best for the American people? Right?

[Dean Withers]

Yes.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

And like what is the most patriotic thing?

[Dean Withers]

I like that.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

And I feel like a lot of what has been discussed today, because I've heard it and a lot of people have said it is. And then what you have addressed a lot is you don't think Trump is the best candidate. Right. And then on top of that, I feel like the problem is with a lot of people right now is there's a lot of issues, a lot of hot topics, a lot of things that.

[Dean Withers]

We could go over.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

And I think the problem is, is when we're thinking about what is the best thing for the American people, a lot of the past four years have gone astray and gone to garbage.

[Dean Withers]

Have you been able to demonstrate to me, like, how you think the Biden and Harris administration has negatively impacted your life or the lives of other American citizens?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

I feel like there's a lot of agendas that you. You've clearly want to talk about agendas, but in terms of like how they did. Oh, well, patriotically. Let's talk about what happened in Hawaii. Like Trump supported a lot or sorry, not Trump. Biden spent more money with Ukraine than what was happening and burning people in Hawaii.

[Dean Withers]

Do you know why?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

And then on top of Ukraine, sorry.

[Dean Withers]

You know why we've sent money to Ukraine?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Why we sent money to Ukraine?

[Dean Withers]

Because of the Budapest memorandum. We signed a denuclearization agreement with you.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Billions of dollars.

[Dean Withers]

Yes.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

To people that are not even Americans. And on top, I'll tell you why.

[Dean Withers]

Oh, yeah, okay. So that's because of the Budapest memorandum that we signed with them in the 1990s stating if they give up their nukes, we'll defend them from a foreign entity if they're invaded. That's what they did. Us sending Ukraine funding and weapons is nothing more than the U.S. upholding our contractual end of an agreement that we made in the 90s. Okay, I know. Yeah. Well, it looks like you are going to be finishing the episode off. We have 30 seconds on the clock. I got 30 seconds to respond to anything that you say, so take it away.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Yeah. One thing that you said about patriotism, I mean, I go to Trump rallies and I see people holding up American flags versus if you go to a Democrat convention, you see nobody holding up an American flag. Maybe like one person or two people there will hold up an American flag. So patriotism to me is being. Being proud of being American, being proud to be from this country, like I'm proud from being in this country. My family can't escape communism from Cuba.

[Dean Withers]

And they find communism with your last.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

Three seconds came here for a better opportunity in loving America. And that's what patriotism is about.

[Dean Withers]

I appreciate you, man. Thank you. Now choose someone from the circle to debate again for another 10 minutes. But based on a claim of their choice.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

I think there were two reasons why Dean chose me. I think I was probably one of the more respectful people that disagreed with him. And then the second reason is I think I actually challenged him.

[Dean Withers]

He had made a claim along the lines of Bill Clinton, you know, cheating on his wife with Monica Lewinsky and not being impeached by the Democrats in Congress and how that may reflect some anti family values. I think. I think that it was probably the best rebuttal that I received from anybody today.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

First one, shake your hand. I hope to have a respectful dialogue with you. My claim is that abortion is immoral or not justified. And so I think it kind of comes down to four main reasons. So the logically the argument is to kill an innocent human being is morally wrong. I'm sure you agree with that one. The second is that abortion is the killing of an innocent human being. So therefore abortion is morally wrong. So that's the logical argument. But I think there's four points that you're gonna bring up that determine whether or not a fetus is human or not. So first is size, second is level of development. Three is environment, and fourth. Fourth is degree of dependency. So all those things, kind of what I hear pro choicers say fall under those categories. And none of those categories determine human value or human worth. You being valuable as a human is based one, in the fact that you are a human. Like that you are part of the human species. But secondly, I would say because you are made in the image of God as well.

[Dean Withers]

Okay.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

And so that would be, I think, the basis of why I am pro life.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, yeah, let's have a conversation about this man. So first of all, I'll just tell you why I'm pro choice. So I'm pro choice because I only value life forms that would fall into specific conjunction of traits. I value any life form that has a conjunction between past or present and future subjective experiences. And it's not until about 20 through 20, 24 weeks that that is true of a fetus. Therefore, prior to that point, I'm not going to associate value with the life of that fetus. Second of all, you said that a human was valuable, A, because it's human and B, it's made in the image of God. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about the idea that you value it because it's made in the image of God and that is what makes you vote for pro life legislation. I don't think that we should be using faith based beliefs to vote for legislation.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Why not?

[Dean Withers]

Because when this has been used historically, this has led to very negative outcomes. One individual might say that's not true. One moment. So one person might say that slavery is okay because God said so. And you're saying that abortion is wrong because God said so. How do we distinguish between those two states?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

See, I never said that. Actually I gave a whole logical argument that's separate from scripture. But you agreed to my first premise. So I don't even know why you're bringing it up. It just seems kind of like, like a red herring. Okay, so you agree to my first premise that killing an innocent human person is wrong, right?

[Dean Withers]

I do not. So I don't think in all scenarios that ending the life of an innocent human being is wrong. I wouldn't say that it would be wrong for a fetus before 24, before 20 through 24 weeks. For the reason it falls outside of that conjunction of value I gave you. It doesn't have the ability to deploy first person subjective experiences. And maybe you'll.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

So what does that mean? Explain that to me.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah, so like a first person subjective experience is, you know, like a type of qualia that we all experience and you know, gives us an inference of the idea that you're sitting in a chair in front of a microphone and you can engage with me in a subjective way. It's a little bit hard to explain, but we could sum this up as consciousness. And then second of all, let's see if maybe you agree with your first premise. Would you say it is murder to pull the plug on a brain dead patient?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Yeah, but I think that's irrelevant to the debate.

[Dean Withers]

You say that that's murder and it's not irrelevant to the debate. So do you think that that should be made illegal?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Yeah, I think so.

[Dean Withers]

To pull the plug on a brain dead patient?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Yeah. If, if that person is still alive, then yeah, we, we don't, we, we cannot make that choice.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. We gotta.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

We. We have to let nature take its course for that.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Maybe something else we could say here. Human life begins at the moment of conception. Yeah.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Yeah, I would agree to that.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. And it's mercy to kill it after that. So would you say. This was a question I asked earlier. Would you say that women with IUDs can be murderers? Because in some, in some contexts an IUD will allow for conception to occur, but then it will iud.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Explain that.

[Dean Withers]

So an IUD is a form of birth control. It's inserted into a female's cervix. I believe maybe I'll get fact checked.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Well, so, yeah, I mean, what it.

[Dean Withers]

Does is in some scenarios it can prevent conception of a unicellular zygote. In others, it will allow for conception to occur, then implant, then prevent implication.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

If conception happens and then the, the fetus is terminated, that is murder.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so you'd say that some women with IUDs are murderers.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Yeah.

[Dean Withers]

Okay. Do you think that all murderers should go to jail?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Well, yeah, I do.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so then you'd say that some women with some forms of birth control should go to jail. Yeah.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

And see now, now we're on a red herring though. You're, you're talking about. You're talking about policy. But what, but you're avoiding the actual discussion. No, this isn't the actual discussion is what is a fetus? What is the unborn? And your only argument against that was level of development. And you said you have to be conscious that that's what you value.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so first of all, no.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Is that correct?

[Dean Withers]

Yeah. So I only value life forms that have a conjunction of past or present and future subjective experiences. But I would like to repeat, know that line of questioning was not a red herring. It was using your logic to imply a certain. No, but one moment.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

In a way.

[Dean Withers]

Just allow me 30 seconds to finish here. Right, so the same logic you're using to imply that a bird. That abortion is murder and should be criminalized. Has also led you to the conclusion that women that use some forms of birth control should be sent to jail. Okay, I don't think that's logic. We should. Okay, but also because of how absurd the conclusion is.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

The problem. No, but here's the problem is that people within the pro life movement disagree on that stuff. So you can't use that to discredit the entire pro life movement.

[Dean Withers]

I'm using that to discredit all three.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

No, but what every pro lifer agrees on and what the heart of the issue is that you seem to be running away from is what is the unborn. And so your, your example of consciousness falls into level of development. But so does that mean that if we have someone and you said, I think subjective experiences and things like that as well, does that mean if someone is born blind and deaf, they're less of a human being? No, because they have, because they can't have the same experiences as the rest of us.

[Dean Withers]

So first of all, I don't think that level of experiences like, like, I don't know, a newborn being less conscious than you or I, that's not going to determine them to have less value. My statement would be if they have any subjective experiences, they're going to have the same amount of value and that's going to be consistent across the board. Second of all, I'm not using this determinator for moral value, that being like first person subjective experiences to evaluate what is or isn't a human. A unicellular zygote from the moment they conception is a human as determined by biologists. Right. They have unique human DNA. Right. My assertion here is that I do not value the fetus prior to that point because they lack this ability that is necessary for them to be harmed.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

They don't be harmed.

[Dean Withers]

You don't have first person subjective experiences. And to say that all human life, regardless of the point of its development, including a unicellular zygote, you know, is just as valuable, that's insane.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

But you're putting a, a barrier on what is a human being.

[Dean Withers]

No.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Yes you are. No, I'm already told have to do. No, I mean we all put the barrier somewhere. Pro lifers say.

[Dean Withers]

I will clarify again, it's a human being from the moment of conception. Not all human beings are valuable, of course.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Okay, what I was saying is we all put the barrier somewhere and so pro lifers are going to put the barrier on conception because that is when it is an independent human being. But you're putting the barrier on consciousness. And I'm saying true. So if you're going to put the barrier there, the problem is is that the result of that view is that people with less consciousness have less value.

[Dean Withers]

It is not.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Yes, it is.

[Dean Withers]

Right.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Why is that not not the case?

[Dean Withers]

Yeah. Because my conjunction for value is meeting the conditions of having the ability to deploy consciousness. Right. But if you deploy more consciousness than another human, that doesn't mean you have more value than them. Any level of consciousness is going to yield the same amount of value as the next. I think that as soon as a fetus gains this ability to deploy these first person subjective experiences that they have.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Just as much value as, okay, deploy consciousness. So what about if you have someone that is unconscious that cannot deploy consciousness? Can we just kill them?

[Dean Withers]

No, because they would still meet the conditions of my conjunction for distributing more value.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

What's the condition?

[Dean Withers]

That being past or present consciousness and future consciousness. Right.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

So if you meet that future consciousness.

[Dean Withers]

Yeah.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Okay, so if they have the potential for consciousness.

[Dean Withers]

I do not think that the potential for consciousness in the future on its own would yield a morally valuable.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Okay, so now you're walking back on.

[Dean Withers]

I am not walking back.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Yeah, you did, because you said.

[Dean Withers]

I have a question. Is the potentiality.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Hold on, can you let me finish? Because you've been complaining about everyone interrupting and that's fair, but I need to make my point. All right, so you were saying that you were just saying about future consciousness. And that's exactly the argument with the pro life is that they have the potential for that consciousness. And again, you're discriminating based on level of development. And if we were to discriminate against a toddler or whatnot based off of level of development, if that's what it means to be human, then that introduces a subjective aspect.

[Dean Withers]

Just kind of making talking points now. Right. I've already clarified that this isn't what makes someone a human. This is what makes a human morally valuable. I've also clarified. One moment, allow me to finish, allow me to finish. I've also clarified here that no, I do not value potential for future consciousness on its own. I value it in conjunct to past or present. I feel as if you are almost ignoring my argument. Conceiving of an argument.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Okay, well, we have it on video of you not just saying past and present, but you saying future. So I mean, you're walking back. If you want to admit that that's. That you're walking it back, that's fine. That's totally fine. But that's what you said.

[Dean Withers]

Okay, so you deny that. So, yeah, when the people at home watch this and scrub, you know, their YouTube, you know, bar at the bottom back, they will see that I said past or present consciousness and future consciousness and future consciousness.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Exactly.

[Dean Withers]

Conjunction.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

[Dean Withers]

Would you like me to describe to you what a conjunct is and why I would use that to describe your value?

[Pro-Life Advocate]

Good dialogue.

[Dean Withers]

At the end of the day, it's not just about me trying to change everybody else's minds, but it's also about me becoming a better person and holding better beliefs myself. I think that I definitely had some letdowns within the positions that I was arguing. I could have known much more about our pull out of Afghanistan. And I want to admit that in good faith. But ultimately, speaking in this all things considered sense, I think that I definitely held up pretty well throughout the conversations, and hopefully I'm able to make an impact upon the beliefs of anyone who may be watching this interview right now. With some of the things I said today.

[Republican Supporter]

I thought Dean was a great debater. He definitely came with a lot of, like, news articles and a lot of. Of facts, what they want to say and kind of. I think at the end of the day, you have the facts. It's how you construe them. And I think he did really well at construing the facts and everything. He did make me kind of think a little bit. Like I said, he was really. He came in really prepared. So there are definitely a lot of things on there that I'm gonna have to go back and research on and just get more information on that.

[Conservative Female Supporter]

You know, I think he's a good kid. I think that he's young. I think that he needs a little bit more life experience to see what economies do under certain administrations and what they do under another.

[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

Just to clarify, I don't believe that women get to high positions by sleeping to the top. There are plenty of women that do work hard to get to where they need to go, myself included. You know, lots of friends and family that I know, and so many women around the globe, they work so hard every single day to get to where they are, even with the disadvantages that they are given. But we were specifically discussing Kamala Harris character. She is not one of them.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

I think it's valuable. But at the same time, I felt like both sides were talking to a wall. I don't think he felt that he was being listened to. And same with us. We don't feel like that we were listened to.

[Pro-Life Advocate]

I think this experience has been valuable. Whenever you get people to just come and sit and discuss these hard issues, I think that's a win. You know, this is going to be on the Internet. People are going to watch this and hopefully this sparks discussion in their lives and in their communities. And so in that way, I definitely think this was a good conversation to have.

[Dean Withers]

Don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever you get your podcasts so that you don't miss an episode. And if you want to watch the video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.

[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

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[Dean Withers]

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[Hispanic Trump Supporter]

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[Conservative Male Critic of Kamala Harris]

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[Dean Withers]

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