Doctor Mike vs 20 Anti-Vaxxers

Summary

Podcast Summary: Surrounded - "Doctor Mike vs 20 Anti-Vaxxers"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Surrounded
• Host/Author: Jubilee Media
• Episode: Doctor Mike vs 20 Anti-Vaxxers
• Release Date: June 12, 2025

Introduction

In this pivotal episode of Surrounded, hosted by Jubilee Media, Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky, widely known as Dr. Mike, engages in a robust debate with twenty-five vaccine skeptics. The format pits one brave individual against a room full of opposing views, aiming to foster raw, unfiltered conversations that challenge assumptions and spark meaningful connections. This episode delves deep into the contentious topic of vaccines, exploring both scientific perspectives and personal anecdotes.

Key Arguments Against Vaccines

Several participants voiced their skepticism regarding vaccine safety and efficacy, grounding their arguments in personal experiences and broader distrust of governmental and pharmaceutical institutions.

• Leona Warner Gray (00:16): Expresses fear of judgment from religious perspectives, stating, "The reality is if we don't get vaccinated with Jesus, we will face God on judgment day," and shares personal stories of adverse reactions in family and friends post-vaccination.

• Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky (04:19): Highlights historical mistrust in institutions, referencing the military and past unethical medical practices like the Tuskegee experiment, questioning the credibility of vaccine mandates.

• Hunter Howell (08:06 & 47:36): Argues that systemic issues like colonization and unethical medical practices underpin chronic health conditions. He cites claims from figures like Bill Gates and discusses population control agendas, emphasizing a return to natural living and critiquing the pharmaceutical industry's motives.

• Janelle (12:18 & 59:00): Brings forth data questioning the risk-benefit ratio of COVID-19 vaccines for children, comparing mortality rates and adverse reactions using sources like the VAERS database. She challenges the ethicality of court-ordered vaccinations, emphasizing the Hippocratic oath's principle of "do no harm."

Dr. Mike's Counterarguments

Dr. Mike systematically addresses each concern raised by the skeptics, grounding his responses in scientific data and medical ethics.

• Vaccine Safety and Efficacy (01:07 - 02:19): Dr. Mike acknowledges that vaccines are not 100% safe but emphasizes their role in preventing diseases. He discusses the difficulty in attributing causation to adverse events post-vaccination without large-scale patterns.

• Bodily Autonomy vs. Public Health (06:38 - 07:22): While respecting individual autonomy, Dr. Mike explains the collective responsibility inherent in vaccinations, likening it to drinking and driving due to its potential harm to others.

• Trust in Science and Institutions (16:53 - 22:32): He defends the credibility of vaccine safety mechanisms like the Vaccine Safety Data Network and counters claims about pharmaceutical malpractices by highlighting peer-reviewed studies and global consensus on vaccine benefits.

• Addressing Misinformation (19:18 - 39:20): Dr. Mike clarifies common misconceptions about vaccine-acquired immunity versus natural immunity, debunking myths about vaccines causing autism and affirming their role in saving lives. He stresses the importance of consensus in scientific communities and the rigorous processes vaccines undergo before approval.

Discussion on RFK Jr.

A significant portion of the debate centers around RFK Jr.'s role in the anti-vaccine movement.

• Dr. Mike's Stance (36:18 - 54:10): He labels RFK Jr. as a public health threat, citing his denial of established scientific facts, such as HIV causing AIDS, and concerns about his influence on public opinion.

• RFK Jr.'s Defense (62:52 - 80:07): RFK Jr. counters by advocating for individual rights and questioning the intentions behind vaccine mandates, suggesting that policies may be influenced by profit motives rather than public health.

Interaction with Dr. Fauci

Towards the episode's end, Dr. Mike engages in a brief exchange with Dr. Fauci, discussing the labeling of anti-vaxxers as villains and the importance of not demonizing individuals based on differing opinions.

• Dr. Fauci's Perspective (77:53 - 80:07): Emphasizes that disagreeing with public health officials doesn't warrant vilification and underscores the significance of precise data in forming public health policies.

• Dr. Mike's Rebuttal (79:31 - 80:07): Maintains that misinformation can lead to harmful health decisions, reinforcing the stance that responsible information sharing is crucial for public safety.

Misinformation and Its Impact

Dr. Mike introduces the concept of anti-vaxxers being both victims and villains. He argues that while vaccine skepticism can arise from genuine concerns or misinformation, actively spreading unverified or false information contributes to public health risks.

• Notable Quote (57:04): "Because in health care we can't just go off of any statement because someone feels subjectively to be true. We have to do our best to do with limited information that we can."

Personal Stories and Anecdotes

Participants like Janelle and Hunter Howell share personal narratives about adverse reactions and experiences with healthcare authorities, highlighting emotional and ethical dimensions of vaccine debates.

• Janelle's Story (56:18 - 76:34): Details her son's adverse reactions post-vaccination and the emotional turmoil faced when mandated vaccines conflicted with her parenting choices.

• Hunter Howell's Testimony (47:36 - 76:34): Discusses systemic issues and personal experiences that fuel his distrust in vaccines and medical institutions.

Conclusion

The episode of Surrounded featuring Dr. Mike and twenty-five anti-vaxxers underscores the deep divisions and passionate convictions surrounding vaccine debates. While Dr. Mike advocates for scientific consensus and public health benefits, participants emphasize personal autonomy, distrust in institutions, and concerns over vaccine safety. The dialogue highlights the complexities of public health messaging and the challenges in addressing misinformation in an era of heightened skepticism.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Mike (01:07): "My first claim is that anti vaccine lies cost lives."

• Leona Warner Gray (00:16): "The reality is if we don't get vaccinated with Jesus, we will face God on judgment day."

• Janelle (13:12): "The number two cause [of death] is suicide. Do you know where Covid is on that range of dangers?"

• Hunter Howell (10:02): "If somebody wants to refuse a treatment, we give them an AMA form against medical advice. I think it's all up to people's choice and their autonomy."

• Dr. Mike (19:18): "Vaccine acquired immunity is better than natural immunity."

• Dr. Mike (54:10): "I think when you're trying to put someone in a position of authority of a health agency, you want it to be a person who understands science and follows factual narratives."

• Dr. Mike (77:53): "I think that RFK Jr. is a threat to public health."

This episode exemplifies the ongoing tension between scientific communities and vaccine skeptics, emphasizing the need for continued dialogue and education to bridge understanding gaps.

Transcript

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

He's not necessarily anti vaccine, but he wants safe vaccines.

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah. So I'm pointing out that I think RFK Jr. Is a threat to public health. You're saying he's being hypocritical? Yeah, he's being hypocritical. Absolutely. And do you know who the number one hypocrites are? Healthcare providers.

[Leona Warner Gray]

The reality is if we don't get vaccinated with Jesus, we will face God on judgment day.

[Dr. Mike]

From Jubilee Media, this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. Let's get into it. After zoomies at the dog park, it's time for drive up at Target.

[Tom]

In goes a big bag of kibble.

[Dr. Mike]

And one squeaky chicken toy for the good boy.

[Tom]

Drive up that's ready when you are.

[Dr. Mike]

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[Tom]

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[Dr. Mike]

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[Tom]

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[Dr. Mike]

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[Tom]

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[Dr. Mike]

Eligibility vary by State. I'm Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky, better known as Dr. Mike across social media. I'm a board certified family medicine physician who makes content online improving health literacy and today I'm surrounded by 20 vaccine skeptics. My first claim is that anti vaccine lies cost lives.

[Leona Warner Gray]

I just had a baby, seven months old and you know, my baby, I was like no, I'm not getting any vaccines. The doctors came in, they made me feel like a very bad mother for not doing that right. I was very pressured. And then I, I, I had a family friend who had a baby at the same time, was a few months in, gave vaccines to the baby and the baby had seizures and has had seizures since. And I've also had a friend who I went on a missions trip with and this pastor was totally healthy, two young girls and this pastor literally got a heart attack out of nowhere. And the only thing was he took the vaccine and there's many cases like that.

[Dr. Mike]

Well, first of all, congratulations on the birth of a seven month old. The fact that anyone made you feel bad in the healthcare system I feel like is a failure on us in the healthcare system. So I'm sorry that happened to you. In health care it's very difficult to predict the future because there are so many unknowns and there's so many Variables in healthcare, there are things that are a lot that are outside of our control, and we try to do the best with the limited amounts that we can control. So when we see two things happen simultaneously in healthcare, sometimes we think they have caused one another. But unless we see a pattern of that happening over and over again on a large scale, it's more likely that this is just a coincidence of things happening at the same time. For example, I have a friend of mine who's a physician who vaccinates children very regularly, and they were about to give a child a vaccine, and before giving the vaccine, the child had a seizure. They went on and had more seizures throughout their life and ended up actually dying at a very young age because of a seizure disorder. The vaccine was never given. Had that happened two minutes later, what do you think would have been in the mother's mind and in the father's mind in that situation? Other than I definitely think that vaccine caused that problem, but it could have just easily happened before, which it did, and the vaccine wasn't responsible. So it's very difficult when two things happen at the same time to be able to make an exact reason as to if that's what happened to cause it. So what we do is we admit that there is safety issues with vaccines. They're not 100% safe. Nothing in life is 100% safe. Driving or walking here today is not 100% safe. I could have a heart attack right now. Cannot predict it. But what we can do is try to do the best that we can with the information that we have. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Thank you.

[Leona Warner Gray]

Thank you.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

I'm actually a fan of your channel. I've been watching for a while.

[Dr. Mike]

Thank you.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

I am a pediatric hematology oncologist.

[Dr. Mike]

Wow. Okay.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

I think a lot of mistrust in my eyes were open during the whole COVID pandemic. Why institutions that were there. I used to be in the military, so when I was in the military, I signed my bodily autonomy away. If they told me to do something, I did it.

[Dr. Mike]

And thank you for that.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

Yeah, thanks.

[Dr. Mike]

No, I say that in all seriousness because I think a lot of times that kind of becomes habit just to say thank you. But I really do mean that. Thank you.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

I appreciate that.

[Dr. Mike]

So.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

So seeing how Dr. Fauci, who was just pardoned. And that's a whole other discussion. Seeing how we were sold a bill of goods that we, the American tax dollars, paid for while these pharmaceutical companies reaped millions and millions of profits on. And I think that caused the goalpost. Oh, the vaccine, this MRNA vaccine, it's gonna prevent the transmission of COVID It's gonna prevent you from getting it and others. If you don't get this vaccine, you hate your grandmother. You're gonna kill all these people and you gotta do your duty and get it. Well, you know what? My grandmother got it and she died. I saw her take her last breath.

[Dr. Mike]

I'm sorry.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

And it's a very sorry. It's a very profound thing to see someone that you love take their last breath and go on to whatever happens after.

[Dr. Mike]

Of course.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

So when those seats. And it turns out the six feet of social distancing was not based on anything. How can you not expect people to question these higher institutions that are deemed to look out for the well being of people and they don't.

[Dr. Mike]

It's a great question.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

Yeah. So just like with black people who don't trust the government because based on the Tuskegee experiment in 1932. Oh, actually 40 years after that, oh, the New York Times, they actually infected them with syphilis and they let them. Infected their families, their friends. It ran rampant. So how do you expect certain people when they've been burned by the government to all of a sudden, all right, well, I'll trust you. Now, ultimately, it's people's choice. Just like if someone wants to refuse a treatment, we give them an AMA form against medical advice. I think it's all up to people's choice and their autonomy.

[Dr. Mike]

There was a few topics that you touched that I think are really worth discussing. First, bodily autonomy. I believe that, and that is the sole principle by which we practice medicine. Vaccines fall in a unique category because your decision on vaccinating your child and then sending them to school can impact other children in that school. So much like drinking and driving as an example, your choice to do that puts your life at risk, but it also puts others at risk. So we deem that as dangerous for the general public. This is why vaccines, it becomes a little more complicated when we talk about bodily autonomy. When it comes to our government, our mandates, pharmaceutical companies, there's absolutely reasons for distrust. I love that everyone in this room is a skeptic and I encourage skepticism. I don't think anyone should just go into a doctor's office and say, yes, yes, yes, yes. In fact, I love when my patients question me. I empower them to ask questions. Doctors sometimes get this attitude where they're like, oh, you googled before coming here. Google search doesn't replace my degree. No, that's not how we're supposed to be. What I get excited about is if you googled and you have questions. Now I know exactly the route I need to take to help you make a decision that's right for you and your family. Okay, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Nice meeting you.

[Hunter Howell]

So I really want to talk to you about this claim based on all of the other things that are causing disease, the chronic conditions that are in this country, all of the metabolic issues, and this is stemming from colonization, putting smallpox blankets on indigenous cultures, sterilizing people in Puerto Rico, Honduras, all of these different things that have happened. And if you look at Africa, oh, by the way, Bill Gates did say something interesting, that the next war will be fought with biological warfare. And I think that was raising eyebrows, especially when you look at the Kissinger report. Right. For those of you who don't know about the Kissinger report, it's all about pretty much limiting, reducing the population of the planet. So I don't know how you can make this claim and really defend vaccines in the nature and the world that we're living in, where we are actually going away from nature. And the further we get away from nature, the more diseases we will see. So, you know, I'm very passionate about this and I want to be able to have, like, a real discussion with you because, yes, you're a medical doctor, but this is also a system that J.D. rockefeller started, getting rid of all types of indigenous practices. And this land is stolen land. So when we're not even honoring the source, when we're not honoring the land, the ancestors, ancestral intelligence, the real AI, when we're not even honoring these things, and we're just supposed to trust science? No, I trust my scientists. I trust Dr. Sebi, I trust Dr. Aris Atham, I trust Dr. Yaqui. Because this system is not for us. It's not built for people like me. It's not built for any of us. Because even the opioid crisis, we saw a lot of Caucasians suffering from that. So how can you sit here and say that this vaccine is killing people when this system is currently killing people, when we even have to have an administration that comes in now and says we gotta start looking at all of these different toxins in the food, in the medicine, in the soil? I don't think it's fair for us to take this vaccine when we're already being forced to take polluted Food.

[Dr. Mike]

When you say take this vaccine, which vaccine are you talking about?

[Hunter Howell]

Well, really, all of them. It should be a choice because even when I was younger, I didn't take as many vaccines as the children have to take now. These children are sicker. They're going through more metabolic issues, they're having mental health issues. And now I don't think it's just the vaccine. It's the system that's perpetuating this type of lifestyle. Yes. That child who was even in the hospital under those fluorescent lights, I'm not surprised that they had a seizure before, because this is an environment that is not conducive to life. This thing that I'm wearing on my chest is called an ankh. Y' all replace this, y' all replaced our cultures. This life representing thing, you replace it with death culture. This is not a health care system. It's a sick care system. And honestly, I cannot sit here in good faith and not represent all of the people who have come before me.

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah, absolutely. I respect that. I came to the United States as an immigrant living on welfare, so I got put into this same system that you're describing. It's a shitty system. The world is changing in ways that make our lives more unhealthy. We're eating more processed food. We're exposed to more chemicals, usually as a result of products that we actually enjoy. So when I complimented you on that gray jacket, when someone wears a specific pretty strap on their Apple watch, there's chemicals in there. There's forever chemicals in there. So for every amazing thing that we have in society, there's been drawbacks. The good part about our society is that we're constantly monitoring those drawbacks and are trying to create solutions for our own problems. So when I think about our current healthcare system, where I think it needs to do better, is it needs to focus more on prevention rather than cures. Agree or disagree?

[Hunter Howell]

1,000%. Yes, sir.

[Dr. Mike]

Do you know how we can do that?

[Hunter Howell]

Not through the vaccines, but one way we could do that is connecting more to nature. One way we could do that is making sure that we're not poisoning the food. One way we could do that is treating each other better with more respect, and actually getting rid of these systems that are putting us against us. This divide and conquer, the media manipulation, and all of this fear tactics that was pushed during this vaccine Covid mumbo jumbo. This. This was totally.

[Dr. Mike]

Do you think we should do all of it? Okay, sorry, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Thank you. Appreciate that. Thank you.

[Janelle]

So I'll let you know. I'm Tom. I'm a police lieutenant from northern New Jersey. And what you told me about your statement about body autonomy and children and the COVID vaccination. What would you say if I told you I had three daughters and my spouse and I had differing opinions on whether our children should be vaccinated with the COVID vaccine, and a judge orders that that vaccine be injected into my daughters? I'll give you a little bit of data first, and this was part of my reasoning with the courts. Risk versus benefit. Correct. From 2018 to 2023, if we trust the CDC, their numbers say the most deadly thing for our children. The number one deadly thing. Do you happen to know what it is?

[Dr. Mike]

Guns.

[Janelle]

Accidents. Not necessarily guns, but accidents. Do you know what the number two? And I'm going from children from 10 to 14 during the height of the pandemic.

[Dr. Mike]

Well, a little bit before the pandemic.

[Janelle]

A little bit before. So the numbers are a little bit bigger. The number two cause suicide. Do you know where Covid is on that range of dangers?

[Dr. Mike]

Very low.

[Janelle]

Very low. That population is about 21 million children in the United States. Between 2018 and 2023, there were about 4 to 7,000 accidents, about 1,000 suicides. Do you know how many deaths there.

[Dr. Mike]

Were from COVID No, not offhand.

[Janelle]

69. In New Jersey, where I'm from, the height of the pandemic, do you know how many deaths there were? Zero. Now, are you familiar with the VAERS database?

[Dr. Mike]

Yes.

[Janelle]

So that's for adverse reactions to vaccinations?

[Dr. Mike]

Yes.

[Janelle]

During that time frame, this is about six months out of that period of time, From December of 2020 to July of 2021, the VAERS database, which is the only database we have, there were 14,000 post Covid vaccination deaths. So how, if you're looking at risk towards benefit, is injecting a child upholding what we call the Hippocratic oath. Right? We talk about the Hippocratic oath and we extrapolate from that. One of the first things, it's not said in the Hippocratic oath, but it's the first thing, is to do no harm. Now, as a police officer, I took oath as well. Protect, serve, preserve life and property. In my line of work, there are times when I had to take a life to save one. I don't necessarily think that applies to you, Doctor.

[Dr. Mike]

It does not.

[Janelle]

Maybe you can give your viewpoint whether maybe you're for or against a court ordering the children to be injected with Something that there is no harm to. But now we're seeing actual harm with the vaccine. They didn't die from the disease, they're dying from the vaccine.

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah. So your point is very logical and you're very well researched, and I applaud that because most people will go off their feelings as opposed to looking at the data as you did. So I appreciate that. When you point out that there's been 69 deaths, you said correct. Between from the CDC data.

[Janelle]

If we trust it.

[Dr. Mike]

If we trust it. And then there was 13,000, 14,000 deaths.

[Janelle]

14,000 according to the VAERS database.

[Dr. Mike]

Are you familiar with how the VAERS database works?

[Janelle]

I am.

[Dr. Mike]

Do you know who can report to the VAERS database?

[Janelle]

It's a voluntary report system. So it's open. It's open either to patients, medical providers, loved ones, anyone.

[Dr. Mike]

During a heated political time during which people are very angry and are reporting things that do happen during a pandemic, isn't it possible that there's people reporting things that after we look at it and judge it off of the VAERS system, that it is in fact not shown to be causative, but in fact a coincidence or correlation?

[Janelle]

So, yes, I would say that correlation doesn't equal causation. But I'll give you another data point to chew on. When I was a law enforcement officer, I saw people that were dying and then when they were assessing the cause of death, they had a range of other morbidities. And just because they died with COVID they didn't die from COVID But getting back to the children, none of them did.

[Dr. Mike]

I think the reason why zero children died is because we immunize so many. A, B the fact that the court ordered you to do it, it's not really my place to judge because you have two parents that have two decision making capacities and someone has to make a decision. I don't know what's right. I leave that to people who are smarter than me. I can talk about the science of it all. And when we look at the science, yes, Covid is a low risk proposition for children, but it's not a zero risk. When we look at the COVID vaccine, especially at the peak of that pandemic, when we were seeing hospitals over flooded, when we were losing people left and right, that was our sole way out of that pandemic. So the fact that zero children died with the vaccination rate that we had, I suspect that the vaccine played a major role in making that happen. All right, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[Elie Azar]

We're out of time.

[Janelle]

I'd love to go with that one.

[Dr. Mike]

Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body.

[Tom]

Relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[Dr. Mike]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class.

[Elie Azar]

I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast.

[Tom]

And breathe.

[Dr. Mike]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order.

[Elie Azar]

Oh, sorry.

[Dr. Mike]

Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.

[Hunter Howell]

1,800Contacts.

[Janelle]

Put us in a box. Go ahead. That just gives us something to break.

[Dr. Mike]

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[Janelle]

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[Dr. Mike]

My next claim is that vaccine acquired immunity is better than natural immunity.

[Tom]

I want to say first that I'm a mother of six children. My oldest two children do have vaccines. My third child, he got a vaccine that the doctor said were safe. That caused him brain issues for the rest of his life and he has arrested hydrocephalus. I want to continue to say my youngest three children have no vaccines at all. They're perfectly fine. They're advanced. My son has permanent brain injury. So they say vaccine immunity is better. But as a child when I got vaccines, I ended up with spinal meningitis. I had chickenpox twice. I almost died. But my three children that don't have any vaccines are perfectly fine. They've been traveled over 20 states during COVID They've never got Covid. They've never got sick. Just a healthy diet keeping them away from toxic foods, making sure their hygiene is good. Did you know that Covid has a patent and natural illnesses can't have patents? They did you know that every illness dated back to polio has a patent? The only thing that doesn't have a patent is the common cold. Did you know that FAUCI funded medical schools to try to make the vaccine more or not the vaccine make Covid more deadly? Vaccine immunity is not really a thing because they cannot guarantee makes anybody immune. There's more side effects from getting a vaccine than to not get a vaccine. The chances of getting illness not vaccinated versus to getting getting vaccines is a lot higher than somebody that doesn't eat toxic crap practices good hygiene. They're more likely to get Illness vaccinated versus not vaccinated. There are studies that show unvaccinated children are more healthier in Japan, they don't start their vaccine schedule, I believe, until 2 years old. Autism is almost non existent. And this is something that needs to be documented, dated back to polio. Everything has a patent except for the common cold, mad cow disease, Spanish flu, Covid. Everything has a patent. So that leads me to believe Big pharma has been ruining our people for generations. Since the Great Depression, since, like he said, Rockefeller agreed to fund medical schools and the education system around 1920s. Since then, illnesses have increased and decreased and decreased and decreased and decreased. And all we ever needed was to take care of ourselves and have good hygiene.

[Dr. Mike]

Something I think our healthcare system doesn't do enough is say, I don't know and I have no idea about Dr. Fauci's patents. I don't know about patents on viruses. I'm a family medicine physician. That means I work in a clinic where people come in with either an acute complaint, something's going on with them, or they're coming in for a preventive physical where we can get ahead of things and make them healthier by preventing illness. In fact, if you think about where pharma's profits are, if pharma had to choose between preventing an illness or to treat an illness for the rest of someone's life, financially speaking, they'd probably want to just treat someone for the rest of their life.

[Tom]

Exactly.

[Dr. Mike]

But that's not what vaccines are. Vaccines prevent that illness, they prevent it from happening. And when you brought up the subject of autism, I think it's an important subject and it's a subject that's been largely debunked by the entire world community.

[Tom]

Not at all. I've seen studies that say otherwise, Doctor. So I don't know if you're going off Rockefeller's medicine or are you going off of holistic medicine as well. As a scientific mind, you're supposed to observe everybody's hypothesis, not just Rockefeller's medical schools. And that's where I feel like you've got most of your knowledge from. And maybe you should branch out into holistic medicine, because vaccines have never been the answer. They were created to separate us from spirit, spirituality, and consciousness. If you look at the ingredients, there's nothing healthy in vaccines, formaldehyde, all types of stuff. So none of that prevents everybody got vaccines still get illnesses. I've never seen any prevention of anything.

[Dr. Mike]

The prevention from vaccines comes from prevention of death and serious illness. And we've seen that when you study that, not just in the US by the Rockefeller system that you describe. One of the largest studies in the world surrounding vaccines in autism in children came from Denmark with over half a million children. That is not a US system, that is not a capitalist system. And they found that there is no pattern.

[Tom]

That's not true.

[Dr. Mike]

I'm trying to branch out as much as possible. You've been voted out by the majority. Thank you so much.

[RFK Jr.]

I want to take a minute and put the ball back on your court because you mentioned herd immunity earlier. Correct. Well, Covid was. Was Covid one of the most contagious viruses we've had? Pretty much.

[Dr. Mike]

I don't know historically speaking. But it was definitely incredibly contagious. In fact, because it wasn't so deadly, was the reason why it was such a problem.

[RFK Jr.]

You want herd immunity? How would we achieve herd immunity if a virus is so contagious that wouldn't it spread across the population before we get it all vaccinated?

[Dr. Mike]

Not every vaccine can create herd immunity, but it can create herd protection. There's two different types of viruses that exist and there is long incubation diseases and there's short incubation diseases. The simplest way I could explain it is how quickly you get sick after you're exposed to this infection. That's short incubation. So if it's fast, it's short incubation. If it's long, it's long incubation. Now, when you look at a disease like smallpox, for example, that's a long incubation illness. It means it gives your chance, your immune system a chance to create a response to it. So if you've been vaccinated, even if you've been vaccinated a long time ago, your body has the time to create protection even after it's been exposed for short incubation illnesses like the common cold, influenza, COVID 19, it's very difficult to create complete protection because even though you've gotten some protection from getting the vaccine in a short period of time, that immunity wanes. And the long term protection you get is only valuable against serious illness like death, hospitalization, et cetera. So you can't get perfect herd immunity for short incubation diseases.

[RFK Jr.]

Okay, thank you. So I guess my follow up question is that there were certain groups of people who were exempt from, from getting the COVID vaccine, like if you were under a certain age or over a certain age, or if you had immunocompromised problems or whatever. So if those people can't get the vaccine. And those are the people who are most vulnerable. And a lot of people in this room believe, well, a lot of people's natural immunity is good enough to fight the disease. Then, like, why would we get the vaccine when the people that, you know, if they, if they can't get it, then they could die anyways, you know?

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah. So by the point of that is by getting the vaccine as a healthy person, I believe that's better than having natural immunity. And that doesn't mean that by getting the vaccine you have a better response or a stronger response. In fact, many times actually getting the disease will give you a better response. But do you know what you have to do in order to get that response?

[RFK Jr.]

Like get the. Get the virus in you.

[Dr. Mike]

Correct. Which means you have to have all the potential risks of having severe disease, death. And largely we've forgotten how serious these viruses and bacteria are. Where in the twenties, in the fifties and the eighties, the deadliness of those diseases has been largely forgotten. One of the vaccines we give to children is called haemophilus influenza. That causes meningitis. We don't see that anymore. The residents that were trained 20 years before me, every time they were in the emergency room, they learned how to do a spinal tap to diagnose this type of meningitis. Because of that bacteria, I've never learned how to do it. I'm not trained how to do it. Now we have to rely on interventional radiologists to do the procedure because of vaccines. So the reason why I say that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity is. Is because you don't have to survive the actual illness.

[RFK Jr.]

Okay, well, that was my question.

[Dr. Mike]

Thank you.

[RFK Jr.]

Another guy.

[Dr. Mike]

Appreciate that. Thank you.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Hey, Dr. Mike. Elie Azar.

[Dr. Mike]

Pleasure.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Nice to meet you.

[Dr. Mike]

Nice to meet you as well.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

I was actually binge watching your videos this week thinking it was gonna be you. I didn't think it was gonna be you. You are very good faith, which I respect. Can I ask you a question in terms. Because as a vaccine skeptic, the burden of proof is on you to show that vaccines do work. So what evidence would you have that vaccines actually work?

[Dr. Mike]

So vaccines, unlike other drugs, and there have been claims made about this in the wrong direction where people say that vaccines aren't as tested as, let's say, pharmaceuticals, because vaccines are given to healthy people to prevent disease. We test them an incredibly higher amount than pharmaceuticals. So that means pre market testing before we bring them out, that means while we give them and after we actually have a system called the vaccine safety data net that monitors millions of doses of the vaccines to see if a pattern gets elucidated through giving the vaccine. So we have all stages of the vaccine process monitored because we are trying to do our best to make sure that we help children and adults when they are due for a vaccine.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, so you just, at the end you said it pretty much sounds like you have to have a good intention. For example, we're not in the labs actually seeing the vaccine process or the clinical trials. So we have to just take the experts word and trust it. Right?

[Dr. Mike]

Well, when you fly in a plane, you're not in the cockpit.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Right. So we put our faith in that. So you would say that we just have to put our faith in the experts.

[Dr. Mike]

Correct? Correct.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, so this would require, number one, a good intention. So they have a good intention to help people to make their lives better and also they have to be ethical, Is that correct?

[Dr. Mike]

Those are reasonable things? Yeah.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, so if they fall outside of the privy of those two criteria, would you say it is reasonable for us to be skeptical?

[Dr. Mike]

I think it's reasonable to be skeptical at any moment.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

But taking those two things, if they violate either of those two, would it give someone else more justification to be against it?

[Dr. Mike]

Sure.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, so when we look at the biggest developers and distributors and sellers of the vaccines, Pfizer, Johnson and Johnson, all these big pharmaceutical companies, when we look at their track record, we see they have been deceptive. They've had, you know, big settlements, billions and billions of dollars, fraud, misleading the public, concealing clinical trials that were against their favor from the public. So when we have to put our whole faith and trust in these people that have been through huge billions of dollars of settlements and they have proven that they have been unethical, they have made more profit through the COVID times than ever before as well. Why should we trust them so lightly? Taking into consideration the fact that we're not in the labs with them, taking the fact that they are profiting from our well being, why should we trust them so lightly?

[Dr. Mike]

It's not a blind trust. Who you're trusting is the independent reviewers that review the data that they put forward.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, but is this political or is this science?

[Dr. Mike]

Health is as much public health as it is individual health.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, but would you say guys like Dr. Peter McCullough or Dr. Rich, would you say that they are probably not good experts that we should adhere to?

[Dr. Mike]

I don't know who those people are.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

So they're very anti vax or they've provided solutions like Hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and They've stated over 200 peer reviewed studies from different types of trials showing the efficacy of those kind of medications that are alternatives to Covid or the vaccination. But what I'm kind of getting to is that we're supposed to trust this specific agenda. So Pfizer who, which once again, if we look at the track record, they haven't had a great track record. So it sounds like to me it's more of a political thing instead of a science thing. When you guys say trust the science and trust the experts, you actually mean this group of experts. Because whenever big experts like rfk, even if you want to say he's not a doctor, he's not licensed, but his friends, Peter McCallo, Dr. Rich, they are great experts, they've had some of the most reviewed studies in the medical field, I don't see why we have to deny their science and their expertise and go with this set of people.

[Dr. Mike]

I think when you look at the grand scheme of things, you have to look at consensus. And when you look at consensus, not just the United States, you look at the who. This is a world organization, this is not a United States organization. In fact, we just pulled out of the WHO funding wise. So this is the most unbiased you can get. Can you erase human bias from research? Absolutely not. Because it's done by us. And humans are inherently biased. When you talk about Pfizer's past mistakes or whichever organization you want to choose from the pharma side of things, to be skeptical of them is so important. And the way that they've been lacking transparency for a long time, especially when it comes to pricing and the way that they've chosen their development of medications, I'm the first person to admit that that is valuable. But when we say Pfizer, where we say Purdue or one of these pharmaceuticals, there are people that are working there, that are researchers that you're talking about the shareholders, the people that are investing in those companies are a different set of people. So when we get data from Pfizer and it's brought to the advisory committee in the CDC or the fda, these are independent bodies that are trying to verify through a peer review process if that is true. They're trying to do their best with the knowledge that we have. Will we have perfect answers? Will there be mess ups? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean you just throw everything out the way and say, hands up, we failed before so we can't fail again.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

I would agree that there's a difference between mistakes and deception. So deception is an intent. You're intending to have malice towards someone. Right. You're intending to make more money by lying to the public. You're intending to make more money or more profit by not showing all the clinical studies that were conducted that show adverse reactions to the thing that you're putting forth. So that's where I would also make a delineation that there's mistakes which we can all make. And I would also say science can make mistakes. But then there's this other section which is an intention.

[Dr. Mike]

How do you judge intention?

[Dr. Teresa Long]

That's the thing is with these kind of companies, we have to assume good intention.

[Dr. Mike]

All right, sorry, you've been voted out by the majority.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Thank you, Mike.

[Dr. Mike]

Appreciate it.

[RFK Jr.]

So knowing that there are side effects that do come along with the COVID vaccine, which is irrefutable, it's a risk management.

[Dr. Mike]

And in any circumstance, if there's a risk, there must be a choice at all times. Would you agree with that? There's always a choice. Well, there wasn't a choice September 9.

[RFK Jr.]

2021, when Biden instituted the OSHA mandate with all federal employees and every business, over 100 employees. Would you agree with that?

[Dr. Mike]

I still think it was a choice. So when you say it wasn't a choice for all the service members that were part of the military that refused.

[RFK Jr.]

The vaccine, they were dishonorably discharged. Did they have a choice?

[Dr. Mike]

They had a choice.

[RFK Jr.]

And what was their choice?

[Dr. Mike]

I'm not saying whether or not this is a fair choice or if I support the choice, but it was a choice.

[RFK Jr.]

Okay.

[Dr. Mike]

Just like with children, in order to go to a public school where by choosing to not vaccinate your child, you're potentially putting other children at risk. You could choose not to put them in a public school and therefore not be mandated to get the vaccines. Everyone has the ability to make a right choice for them and their family.

[RFK Jr.]

And if you are able to fully.

[Dr. Mike]

Understand with informed consent, there are many, many risk factors. Especially knowing that there's no long term studies. Not one. Sorry, time's up. Thank you.

[Tom]

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[Hunter Howell]

I think you're on mute.

[Dr. Mike]

Workday is starting to sound the same.

[Hunter Howell]

I think you're on mute.

[Dr. Mike]

Find something that sounds better for your career on LinkedIn.

[Janelle]

With LinkedIn job collections, you can browse.

[Dr. Mike]

Curated collections by relevant industries and benefits like Flexpto or hybrid workplaces, so you.

[Janelle]

Can find the right job for you.

[Dr. Mike]

Get [e-mail] jobs finding where you fit. LinkedIn knows how. My next claim is that RFK Jr. Is a public health threat.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

So why do you think he is a threat?

[Dr. Mike]

I think when you're trying to put someone in a position of authority of a health agency, you want it to be a person who understands science and follows factual narratives.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

So if RFK appeals to other experts that are anti vax because they've seen sufficient evidence otherwise, would that be heretical as well?

[Dr. Mike]

I think that RFK stances of why he's a public health threat go past the anti vaccine stances. He's made public statements that HIV doesn't cause aids, that poppers, which is a party drug or a recreational drug that people use, is really the reason why AIDS exists. That is not someone who clearly understands science and I don't want them in charge of a health agency.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, assuming he does become head of the health department, wouldn't he now technically be considered the expert? Not an expert, but the expert?

[Dr. Mike]

No.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

So then if he put something forth that was anti vax and he said we have sufficient evidence to prove this, and then other medical experts, such as you, which are pro vax, went against it, wouldn't now you be categorized as the wrong ones?

[Dr. Mike]

No, because it's not based on a single person's opinion. This is a consensus driven statement driven by thousands of doctors, dozens of agencies, not just here in the United States, but worldwide as well.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, do you allow your patients to write bad reviews about you if they had a bad experience?

[Dr. Mike]

It's not my choice to write it or not write it?

[Dr. Teresa Long]

No. Do you allow them or would you remove it?

[Dr. Mike]

No.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

No what?

[Dr. Mike]

I would not remove it.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, so if we look at Facebook, Google, YouTube, they suppressed so many anti vax posts, legitimate declarations of they were injured, serious deaths. ABC News went on Facebook and they posted a simple question. Who do you know or yourself that was seriously injured from the vaccine? Over 200,000 comments that were then removed by Facebook. Mark Zuckerberg just went on Joe Rogan and he said that Joe Biden, the Biden administration forced them to censor people. So if someone really believes in their product why would they do mass censorship to hide it?

[Dr. Mike]

I'm a family medicine doctor. I have no idea why they're censoring certain websites or not censoring certain websites. That's outside of my scope.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Well, that's outside of your scope, but just using logic, just using reasoning. You said you would not remove your patients bad reviews. So, so why would we allow these experts to then remove those kind of critics?

[Dr. Mike]

Last that I checked, no doctor removes patient bad reviews. No doctor goes on and hides comments. I mean, maybe they do it on an individual level, but not on a systemic level.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, I would just say that RFK Jr. Does appeal to other experts. That even if they're vaccine skeptics, they put forth legitimate studies that would be antithetical to to the pro vaccine studies. So you said earlier, like misinformation. I would ask who is the author of misinformation?

[Dr. Mike]

Who is the author of misinformation?

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Yeah. So misinformation, first off, is predicated on the fact that there's right information. Right. Information is gonna be predicated on the fact that there's absolute truth. Does science say absolute truth?

[Dr. Mike]

There's no absolute truth, period. Right. In fact, there's a great book that I recommend everyone to check out. It's called the Half Life of Facts. To see how what we consider now a fact, how quickly it could change. And in science, what I consider someone who would be a good fit and not a public health threat to lead the agency, is someone who's aware that facts can expire, they can change, they can adapt, but they have sound logic as to why they make those decisions. And they don't make statements carelessly with bad information, knowingly bad information.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

So if truth is provisional, this means that science, that right now you can be pro Vax and next year, when you see sufficient evidence, you can be anti vax. Correct.

[Dr. Mike]

You could.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay, perfect. So if there's no absolute truth within this realm, I don't know why we should completely rule out RFK Jr and the other experts that he could appeal to.

[Dr. Mike]

The reason I rule him out is because he takes information that is not true. Like that poppers cause aids.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Subjectively true.

[Dr. Mike]

It's not subjectively true for the time.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Being because you just said it's provisional truth, meaning it can change with time.

[Dr. Mike]

Right. But you can create any sort of statement. And in health care we can't just go off of any statement because someone feels subjectively to be true. We have to do our best to do with limited information that we can. That doesn't mean we have zero information. We should just believe anyone. In fact, have you seen these podcast hosts who have protocols by which they, like Gary or Gary Braeca or otherwise. The reason why I don't subscribe to their protocols is because anyone can make a claim about anything, just like RFK does with these statements. Until someone backs up these claims with good, substantial evidence, and there are. There is a hierarchy of what good, substantial evidence is, we won't believe those stats. The same way that if you sat across from me right now and told me you're the fastest human on Earth at 100 meters, you might be telling the truth, provisionally, subjectively, might be true. The only way I'll know it's true is if we have an Olympic timekeeper with an Olympic device measured with the proper measuring tape. Then I can witness it and then I can see it's true. Okay, pause. Sorry. You've been voted out by the Matthias.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Thank you so much.

[Tom]

I would like to start by saying that HIV does not cause aids. AIDS is actually brought on when your white cell count goes to back below 200. So to say that HIV cause AIDS is inaccurate information. Actually, when your blood cell count goes below 200. I do agree some things he say is skeptical, such as climate change is real when we know that there's weather manipulation, weapons and patents. However, majority of what he says about vaccines is true when there's so many. Like, have you heard of Dr. Teresa Miller? The military doctor Teresa Long?

[Dr. Mike]

No.

[Tom]

She said that spontaneous abortion went up 300% in the military after they mandated the vaccines. There's been several doctors that have came out and spoke of the adverse reactions. So how is it that vaccine skeptics are the villains when some of the top doctors, some of the doctors that help create PCR tests, some of the doctors that have worked on vaccines have came out and said they're unsafe and we should not give this to our family and friends. How is it that he's a villain? How are we a villain if some of these vaccine creators and scientists are the ones saying we should not get.

[Dr. Mike]

Is there anything I could say today that would change your mind?

[Tom]

I'm just asking your opinion.

[Dr. Mike]

I'm asking you a question.

[Tom]

Probably not, because I actually read and study.

[Dr. Mike]

Well, if I can't change your mind.

[Tom]

I just want to know your opinion.

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah. So I would like to give you my knowledge, my experience, and what I've seen in the hospital system. But if you're telling me right now, no matter what I say, you're not going to change your mind. Is there any value to that?

[Tom]

Well, I like to study everybody's opinion. I don't like to just say I believe this and not further investigate everybody else's opinion. But when studies show the unvaccinated are actually healthier and the vaccinated are the ones that are getting Covid and dying and getting heart problems and over 100 something athletes that got the vaccine got heart problems after being perfectly healthy, I think it's unsafe and actually more so villain like to say it's so safe and call people that are anti vaxxers skeptics when over 100 athletes that are perfectly healthy or injured over who knows how many in the military cannot have kids or have had a spontaneous abortion or everything because caused because of this. So I feel like it's an unfair statement to say he's a villain or he's unsafe but then continue to say you believe the vaccines are safe and effective when millions have died or suffer from adverse reactions. So I'm just trying to understand your perspective.

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah, my perspective is if you like the American Medical association put out that over 90% of doctors got vaccinated. There's no epidemic of doctors having negative outcomes dying at alarming rates.

[Tom]

There's saline shots as well. There was a doctor in Australia that came forth and said that at least 10% of the vaccines that were going out were saline shots. And this has been proven by an Australian doctor that some of the shots that were going out were saline shots. So how are we to say that some of these doctors didn't know ahead of time of Agenda 21 and got a saline shot? It's kind of impossible to say, sorry.

[Dr. Mike]

You'Ve been voted out by the majority. Thank you. There's so much trust invested in you and, and your research and how you look at things and how you look at data. So I imagine you have a mountain of stuff to look at. When you mentioned the RFK thing right away, what got in my head is like I don't know nothing about him really, but I know he was a Democrat. If I'm not correct, if somebody. He was. He ran as a for president, as a Democrat. Okay, so. So that's why that was a big thing. When he transitioned to shaking Trump's hand. Right. That was like a big political move. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It made news. Does that have a bias thing if you don't like Trump? No. So what's interesting about this anti vax movement is people are very quick to label it left, right, center. It's not if you look back at the history of the anti vaccine movement. It's. It started initially on the left in democratic circles, and then over the last few years with the COVID 19 pandemic, it's become more prevalent on the right, but it's not mutually exclusive. It happens all across the board. And I empathize with you as a new father. How difficult it is making this decision, hearing all these statements, because ultimately you have to decide what to do. And if you choose to get the vaccine or you choose not to get the vaccine, both of those carry consequences. Yes, I get what you're saying, but to call me a villain, even though I have been a villain before, I've been an incarcerated person, to put me now as a villain, as I'm trying to be a protective father to the tribe, that I'm entitled, you know, that I have. Sucks. This really bothers me. Based off my statements. I would never call you a villain in this situation. I think you actually fall into the victim part of this situation. The villain of the situation is more with this claim about RFK Jr. When he knows things to not be true and he uses that for personal gain or otherwise to progress his career. I don't think that's what you were trying to do. So I don't think you're the villain in this situation. So this is website that I think he's part of. It's called childrenhealthdefense.org have you heard of this? It's his organization. Have you watched anything from there or looked? Anything? Sure, I've seen clips. Okay. Did you watch the unvax video? No, not the unvax video. I highly suggest to watch it. I mean, I. My concern is, is you don't have the. You don't have the means to look at the data of the persons that are not vaccinated. And how would you know? Because they're not going to the doctor to check on you regardless. So what? What? How can you say that there's not a better option if someone says, I don't feel safe for that. All this stuff mounts up on my decision to be like, dang, am I a villain? Because someone from the outside is coming in to just go ahead and try to change all these things. I mean. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm gonna.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Have to cut you off.

[Dr. Mike]

You've been voted out. Rather. Thank you so much. Appreciate you sharing your story.

[Hunter Howell]

Good to see you again.

[Dr. Mike]

Good to see you.

[Hunter Howell]

So I just want to say there haven't been A lot of people in public health advocating for natural remedies or even talking about working out, talking about getting the fluoride out of the water, talking about getting the chemicals out of the food. So how could you say this when most of the problems that are facing this country, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, are really coming from all of these forever chemicals that are, yes, on clothes, but that even should be regulated as well. Wouldn't you agree?

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah. I think that everything RFK Jr says is not necessarily wrong. The best analogy I can think of is if I have a clock that's broken, it's still right sometimes, but it doesn't mean I'm going to wear it and call it a good clock.

[Hunter Howell]

I love that. Have you been wrong before in your life?

[Dr. Mike]

Absolutely.

[Hunter Howell]

In your practice as a doctor, I've been wrong as well. And what I will say is all of us have the ability to atone, all of us have the ability to know new information. And just like I hope that we can be able to trade information and look on the other side of the aisle and say, you know what, there are people who care about people. And I want you to realize that that's what you're surrounded by right now. We're not only talking about ourselves in terms of our own well being and saying this is my choice, but also saying there is a big issue in this country as it pertains to the children. We could just look at the children and even if we talk about once again the vaccine aspect of COVID and how Covid wasn't affecting children, but yet all of these other issues are, and they got to grow up in this world.

[Dr. Mike]

Also.

[Hunter Howell]

The, the idea for me that we have all of the testing and all of the evidence for Covid is also false. So when people are skeptical and people are like, you know, I. People say the different disinformation doesn't, I say the divine information doesn't because they were kind of profits. When you look at it, if you look back at their old claims, a lot of things that they said came true. Even when we look at all of the things that Fauci was involved in, gain of function, research, everything going on in that Wuhan lab in China, there's a lot of things that we can say. So I would hope that based off of this conversation, you could at least have a little bit of heart to say, you know what, maybe RFK is not just thinking about his career, but he's actually thinking about people. And I think all medical doctors should do the same.

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah, I think Everyone in this room has been very charitable in speaking with me, and I actually really appreciate it. I'm here volunteering my time to try and just share what I've learned, my experience, my knowledge, what I would do if I was facing a dilemma with vaccinating my future child. And my goal is just to share the most accurate information. Because when I started in healthcare and I was a resident and I was in my training, the amount of negative things people were doing to their health, like a lot of the metabolic things that you've discussed, like the lifestyle choices, were largely due to other people misinforming them or making miracle promises.

[Hunter Howell]

Like almost like doctors saying cigarette smoke is actually good for you.

[Dr. Mike]

Exactly. In fact, everything that we're doing in healthcare right now, like 50% of it over the next hundred years will be found to be ineffective. Or there's gonna be something better and.

[Hunter Howell]

We'Ll go back to nature.

[Dr. Mike]

Right. And some of it will go back to nature. Like, going back to nature sounds really good, but there's also a little bit of a fallacy in that. So, like in nature, people walk barefoot, but we don't choose to walk barefoot because we don't want to get tetanus infection from the floor and get cuts on our feet. There's.

[Hunter Howell]

Yeah. And all of these chemical induced floors that we're putting, all of these bleaches.

[Dr. Mike]

These things that are no forever chemicals.

[Hunter Howell]

But grounding is a thing. Earthing is a thing that has proven to help with floor.

[Dr. Mike]

So how do we balance a healthy lifestyle of being outdoors with modern science is where we need to.

[Hunter Howell]

I think we can do it. Right. Because allopathic medicine did rule out. Once again, I think I brought up a. The flexibility.

[Dr. Mike]

I'm not an allopathic physician. How old is that? I'm an osteopathic physician. So I think more of the holistic approach than a traditional allopathic physician would. I did not go to an allopathic medical school, and I am very passionate about one thing that I feel like is lost in modern healthcare. The body's ability to heal itself.

[Hunter Howell]

Yes.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Amen.

[Dr. Mike]

And I think that sometimes we envision so much more control than what we actually have. Like, for example, do you think wearing a seatbelt saves lives?

[Hunter Howell]

It can. Yeah, for sure.

[Dr. Mike]

Has it ever saved yours? No. Have you worn it all the time or majority of the time?

[Hunter Howell]

I have not worn it all the time.

[Dr. Mike]

I can see you regularly wear it.

[Janelle]

Yeah, for sure.

[Dr. Mike]

Does that mean it was stupid to have done so?

[Hunter Howell]

No, not at all. But I think this is how risking my life as a vaccine would be risking my life.

[Dr. Mike]

So there's some people that believe, like anti vaxxers believe vaccines are harmful without great evidence that seat belts can cause you to get trapped and et cetera.

[Hunter Howell]

Et cetera, and actually cause more vaxxers believe that.

[Dr. Mike]

No, I'm saying like anti vaxxers believe negative beliefs about vaccines that are not proven. Some people say that about seatbelts. Some people say that the world is not around and they believe it to be flat.

[Hunter Howell]

Now, can you compare vaccine skepticism with really seatbelt skepticism? Like, do you think that really weighs. Especially when people are injured from vaccines. This is a real thing that people.

[Dr. Mike]

Have been injured by seatbelt.

[Hunter Howell]

I understand. So I'm going to give somebody else the time. But you know, my claim is pretty much that RFK is standing up for a lot of different things that are going on in this country right now that are causing more damage than Covid.

[Dr. Mike]

I would love for someone else to stand up for those things as opposed to rfk. I think you as well. Right.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

His movement, the Maha movement, make America healthy again. As a mom and as a woman. It speaks to a lot of people because especially as a nurse as well. And you know, seeing the chronic disease epidemic in this country, we spend more in health care than any other country. We're more medicated than any other country, but yet we're not healthy. And I don't necessarily always agree with everything that RFK Jr says. I mean, I don't agree with my husband on everything. And I willingly chose him, let alone some random politician. So I could see why some, you could probably disagree with it. But I think he speaks to something to a lot of people. He appeals to the parent. He appeals to like just the everyday American, they want to go back to a more natural way of life. And like I said, and that's what I think, I disagree with that claim that he's a threat because I think his intentions come from a good place. He's not necessarily anti vaccine, but he wants safe vaccines.

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah. So I'm pointing out that I think RFK Jr. Is a threat to public health. And you're pointing out reasons why he's good. And I think there are legitimate reasons of things that he says that are valuable that should be addressed. He said a lot of things that I think risk children's lives in the future. I think by potentially getting rid of vaccines, increasing diseases that were once extinct. Coming back is extremely worrying to me as a primary career provider. Okay, pause. You've been Voted out by the majority, please. Thank you.

[Leona Warner Gray]

RFK Jr. Has been revealing so much of what we have been needing to know about health. And again, like you were saying, some of the things that have been hidden from us. I mean, I'm a YouTuber, right? I have a YouTube channel. And when I talked about the vaccine, I was censored. And he wants to bring back the freedom of speech. He wants to bring back the power of the people. And we have been really just oppressed by Big Pharma and by the government, and we want our freedom back. And even my friend Leona Warner Gray, she is the author of the Earth Diet. She had cancer right here, a tumor. And she got healed through organic foods. She is a huge, huge promoter of RFK and Maha. And she talks about how this is the way to heal the world is through the natural medicine of God. God gave us everything that we needed. The reality is, if we don't get vaccinated with Jesus, we will face God on Judgment Day. It's not just about health. It's about freedom of speech. It's about the government's trying to kill us. Even Bill Gates had, I think it was kind of like a TED Talk, but he had like, you know, a talk where he said, you know, we need to get the population down and we're going to do a great job of it. And you know how? Through improving vaccines, because we're going to lower the population that way. And you can find it.

[Dr. Mike]

Pause. You've been voted out. Please return to your seat. My name is Michael. I kind of bring some curiosities for you.

[Hunter Howell]

So in 2010, my mother was vaccinated.

[Dr. Mike]

With the flu vaccine. And right after, three days later, she received. Half of.

[Hunter Howell]

Her face was paralyzed, and the doctor.

[Dr. Mike]

Was actually expressing that.

[Hunter Howell]

It could have been a number of things, it could have been what she ate, whatever. But at the end of the day, she most likely believes that it was.

[Dr. Mike]

Because of that flu vaccine back in.

[Hunter Howell]

2010, assuming again that we've had roughly 20 years of flu vaccine studies going around round.

[Dr. Mike]

So my question to you is, how.

[Hunter Howell]

Is it possible that someone could potentially.

[Dr. Mike]

Get Bell's palsy three days after she.

[Hunter Howell]

Got a flu vaccine, which could have permanently allowed her face to be paralyzed.

[Dr. Mike]

For the rest of her life versus someone who got it and maybe didn't.

[Hunter Howell]

Have those symptoms that I'm explaining?

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah. So Bell's palsy, interesting condition because we oftentimes don't even know what caused it. A lot of times we think it has a viral cause. Now, if your Mother in this situation believes that the vaccine was to blame for this condition. There is a way for her to get compensated for it, because vaccines do carry side effects. I am not your mom's doctor, so I wouldn't know all the circumstances surrounding it. Which vaccine, which number, dose, what other health conditions existed, what medications were being taken. There's a lot to take into consideration because health has so many variables. And even when she has her own doctor, they might not even know the right answer. That's why when you apply for this vaccine injury compensation fund, it's a no fault system with no jury, meaning that they're trying to do their best to get people paid out as quickly as possible. Because if you were to sue a vaccine manufacturer, it would take forever. It would take huge sums of money for your mom to be able to fight that case. But by applying to the vaccine injury compensation fund, you're actually able to get payouts, on average, two to three years, which is much faster than going through a full jury trial. So this is all to say that vaccine could have caused that side effect in your mother? I can't say yes or no, but if it did, she should be compensated. The fact that that compensation exists, I think is a good thing. And I think it shows that we're honest that vaccine side effects absolutely happen. Now, the other thing I do want to kind of ask. Is it true that you, as a.

[Hunter Howell]

Doctor, you follow a certain code of conduct?

[Dr. Mike]

Sure. Did you ever say that there's things that you say that have to be political? I have been critical of the CDC, the WHO. I've been critical of Dr. Fauci. I've been critical to Dr. Fauci in front of him sitting at interviews. All right, let's end there.

[Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky]

Perfect.

[Dr. Mike]

Thanks, guys. With a Venmo debit card, you can Venmo more than just your friends. You can use your balance in so many ways. You can Venmo everything. Need gas?

[Tom]

You can Venmo this.

[Dr. Mike]

How about snacks?

[Dr. Teresa Long]

You can Venmo that.

[Dr. Mike]

Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this or their next show. You can Venmo that. Visit Venmo me debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license, my MasterCard International Inc. Card may be used A as Everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.

[Janelle]

My day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink.

[Dr. Mike]

Then straight to the gym, pre K pickup back home to meal prep. Time for my fire station shift.

[Janelle]

One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

I'm ready.

[Janelle]

Celsius Live Fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate [e-mail].

[Dr. Mike]

My next claim is that anti vaxxers are both victims and villains of misinformation. The way I see it, the vaccine itself should be, you know, the discussion. But we could talk about that. Yeah. I think the reason why I say it that way is that, for example, you, I believe you're a vaccine skeptic and I think vaccine hesitancy, skepticism is warranted. But I think when you're an anti vaxxer, you become an activist for spreading misinformation and that makes you both a villain and a victim because you've largely been misled. So the anti vaxxer. Would you agree that there's some reason for someone to be an anti vaxxer? Absolutely. And a lot of times they're the ones misled. So that's why I think they're victims, because it's easy if someone shares a very. Let's do it this way. I think this is a very visual and easy way to understand it. If there are two streets to cross to get to the other side of the road. And I've run a million people through this trial and I saw that the sidewalk on the right is much safer than the sidewalk on the left or the street on the left. And someone starts spreading misinformation that the right sidewalk is actually so deadly and they saw someone die and it was brutal and they make it very powerful and they start convincing people to cross on the more dangerous sidewalk. I would say that they're being a villain by telling people to go on the other side of the sidewalk. And they're also a victim because they may have been misled by someone who shared a very scary story. Understood. So what would be an example of the misinformation that you're referring to? Like that vaccines cause autism. So they don't cause autism, you're saying correct at all? Correct. Well, that's news to me. Okay, what about death? Doesn't the vaccine save lives? Correct. It lowers the death rate. It doesn't prevent it. 100%. Okay, so why are people dying? Because it's not 100%. But reality is, majority of the people who were dying were vaccinated people. Correct. Because most people were vaccinated. The misinformation, autism, that's one I have to look into. Is there anything else in terms of what's bad Misinformation. I've heard people say things like, there's no such thing as a safe vaccine. I think that's misinformation. Okay, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[RFK Jr.]

First of all, I want to say your claim has some logic to it. Like, yes, I can agree that some people are victims to vaccines, but I also agree that there are some anti vaxxers who do come at vaccines very aggressively. But what I want to say is when it comes to the actual efficacy of vaccines, we have a constitutional right. The first constitution says we have a right to religious practices. And some people will say, oh, hey, this is the body God gave me and I don't want to take any vaccines.

[Dr. Mike]

Sure.

[RFK Jr.]

And other people will say those people are crazy because maybe vaccines help. But I guess what I'm trying to get at is I think it depends on the actual vaccine. If somebody could be a victim or a perpetrator, I guess you can say, because when it comes to to the swine flu, that vaccine actually killed 32 people and they discontinued it shortly after because they knew it wasn't going to be anything good. I guess you can say my whole.

[Dr. Mike]

Stance on vaccines is strictly to do with the science. Less so about religious stances, whether or not someone chooses or not to vaccinate. So when I say that someone is a victim of anti vaccine misinformation, I think what I'm saying is that they've been tricked by misinformation or perhaps misled by an emotional argument. Less so that they've been a victim of a vaccine.

[RFK Jr.]

Do you mind if I ask, can that also work in the opposite logic? As in somebody can trick you into thinking that vaccine is God's great gift on earth. As in when Anthony Fauci told us, hey, the COVID you can't transmit it.

[Dr. Mike]

You mean like treating science as a religion?

[RFK Jr.]

Yes, exactly.

[Dr. Mike]

I think that's not a good way to go.

[RFK Jr.]

Yes.

[Dr. Mike]

When we said lines like trust the science, I wasn't even a fan. Because trust the science almost played like trust the scientist.

[RFK Jr.]

Yes, the exact one.

[Dr. Mike]

And that's not what it should be. Because science is a process by which you ask questions.

[RFK Jr.]

Yes.

[Dr. Mike]

And in fact, when we do research, we try to disprove ourselves. That's what good research is. Research isn't supposed to be done to confirm your belief in something because you want it to be true.

[Janelle]

Yes.

[Dr. Mike]

You're trying your best to disprove whatever it is that you're setting out to find out. And you're trying to think in every way where your limitation is on the study, where your bias can be in the study. We actually meet in hospitals and we have something called journal club where we look at a study and we say, where's the bias in the study? Where's the limitations? Where can the next study design be better? And there are experts that are constantly dealing with this to try and improve a further research. So it's not about trust the scientists. It shouldn't be treated like a religion. It should be an ever evolving process that is continually questioned. At the same time, when we look at the manufacturing of vaccines and how they're made, some people with religious views are concerned. I will say a lot of the major leaders in each major religion in the United States has put forth that people should get vaccinated and that it is acceptable by their religion. That's not me. I'm not a religious leader, but I just have seen that put out.

[RFK Jr.]

Let's say they had those religious beliefs where they're like, I don't want to take it. Would you, I know you said, would you fully agree those people were victims of that said policy? Like, if you're a healthcare worker, I.

[Dr. Mike]

Wouldn'T view them as a victim because I saw them getting the vaccine as largely a positive.

[RFK Jr.]

Okay, I can see, I can see you see it as a positive. But for me, I never took the COVID vaccine. I never got Covid, so I don't see the positivity for me. Is there a way you can prove that the COVID vaccine was in fact a positive for everybody that took it?

[Dr. Mike]

I can't prove that it's for everybody. In fact, when someone shares a story, whether or not it worked for them, whether they had a side effect on them, I can't prove it. When we look at research, we look at populations, we look at averages, and off of those averages we can make certain statements. They're never foolproof. In fact, the reason why we have a vaccine injury compensation fund is for that exact reason. So that there are individuals who have been hurt by vaccines that they should be compensated.

[RFK Jr.]

That compensation only comes after the National Childhood Vaccine act, or I might be saying it wrong, came out in 1986. But basically it was a blanket type of pardon for any type of type of pharmaceutical company to be held liable for any injury or death. Because before that they were dealing with all kinds of lawsuits. I think it was back in 1962 or something like that, before they did it.

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah. So part of what you said is really Right. And part of it is a little bit in a slightly different direction. And I'll explain to you exactly how right now, if you believe you've been hurt by a vaccine, you can apply through this national vaccine compensation fund. The way that that fund is funded is every time we give a vaccine, there's a 75 cent tax put on every vaccine. And that money goes to fund that fund. The reason that was created was that vaccine companies in the 1980s, as you said, were facing major lawsuits at the time because of vaccines. And there was historically a special that aired on television that scared people, that spiked all the lawsuits. Okay. So pharmaceutical companies said, we're not going to make vaccines. It's too risky for us, it's too expensive. So we face shortages, we face decreased innovation. And we created this tax as a way to potentially take some of the risk off their hands. However, if you go through the national injury compensation fund and you're not satisfied that you didn't get money, you're satisfied that you didn't get enough money, you just want to pull out of it. In general, vaccine companies can still be sued. It's just a lot easier to sue through the compensation fund.

[RFK Jr.]

Okay. And I do appreciate you giving me that information.

[Dr. Mike]

A little bit.

[RFK Jr.]

Was new to me. But anyways, I know you said it's 75 cents on a dollar that the vaccine companies pay out to that. So who's the other 25 cents?

[Dr. Mike]

That taxpayer? No, no. There is an added charge. So, for example, if a vaccine costs $10 to administer, the cost of that vaccine. Vaccine will be $10.75. Okay, pause. And that little 75 cents will go. You've been voted out by the majority. Please. Thank you. When you look at people that are proponents of the vaccine, especially in important capacities, like if we take the example.

[RFK Jr.]

Of Jay Varma, he was a Covid.

[Dr. Mike]

Czar at the peak of COVID and he was a public health advisor under Bill de Blasio. And he's having private gatherings in August of 2020.

[RFK Jr.]

It was a sex party.

[Dr. Mike]

Right. So eight to 10 people. And I think it's really funny, too, because you're saying he's being hypocritical. Yeah, he's being hypocritical. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you know who the number one hypocrites are? Healthcare providers. Right. We're the worst patients. We're the worst at following our own advice.

[Hunter Howell]

And that essentially proves.

[Dr. Mike]

That essentially proves what I'm trying to say, because it's like if you're advocating for the vaccine but you're doing the exact opposite. Can I ask if you think that if you are sharing accurate information, but you might not be following the same stances, you could still be sharing accurate information. So in this case, he was saying that we should be social distancing or not having parties. And he had party in the situation. Correct. So is there a world where he's telling the truth? You shouldn't be doing this thing. Okay, but he did that thing and that's not good. No, no, no. But I'm saying that it's. It's wrong that he did it, but it's right that he's sharing the right information. Is that possible? I mean, that's true, but. Sorry, you've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Great point.

[Elie Azar]

My name is Janelle and I'm also an educator. I'm a sex conscious sex therapist. So I deal with longevity, preserving the body. And so I think the real villains are people like Fauci.

[Dr. Mike]

Right.

[Elie Azar]

Did you know that his Salary is like 500K and the highest, they said, and he's worth 11 million. Crazy. Maybe that's he's getting the rest of that money. But. And then let me go on just real quick.

[Dr. Mike]

Sure.

[Elie Azar]

And that something interesting. I thought too when you were talking about the various studies that there said that there was like 40 million adverse reactions, not including the deaths. And with polio, because I want to talk more about like child vaccine, because I'm a mom and all that stuff. But polio, which came out in 1968, only had 123k and tetanus had 15k. So it's crazy. Right? These have been around for ages. Anyway, that's B side. So the villains, I think are maybe not you, because you seem Very nice, Dr. Mike.

[Dr. Mike]

Okay, thank you.

[Elie Azar]

But, but doctors, you know, when I was. Okay, so we have something in common. I was on welfare. I have a crazy story. But when I had my son, I decided, you know, I want to do this clean. I want to be clean. I don't want to do the vaccines. And they made me feel like you said, like the most terrible mom. So we have these doctors and the drug companies who are making us feel like we're the villains, but they're the villains because it should. Health should be a matter of choice. Right. The problem is we're not healthy anymore. Right. So they forced me to, or they tried to force me to get vaccines all the way through my pregnancy. Why do we want to vaccinate newborns with hep b What are they? Are they having anal sex and intravenous needles or getting tattoos in utero? My son wasn't well.

[Dr. Mike]

Happy is not just spread by all those things that I mentioned.

[Elie Azar]

Right.

[Dr. Mike]

But there's children that get it from sharing food utensils, biting one another in preschool.

[Elie Azar]

A newborn doctor. I mean, you have to understand newborn.

[Dr. Mike]

Like my son, they go to daycare where there's a lot of other children that.

[Elie Azar]

Right. But not. Not in the first few hours of life. Like, the best thing they need is breast milk and like, for me to like, be forced. Feel like I was forced to do that. Anyways, I went almost a year.

[Dr. Mike]

Well, were you forced?

[Elie Azar]

I wasn't. But they did try to force. They make you feel like you're a terrible mom. I refused all the vaccines while pregnant, and then I was already on welfare, so it made me feel. They didn't make me feel. I chose to feel like I was the villain when they were. They were vilifying me. And so just to. To go back because I wanted some of the other prompts about like the immunity and things like that, which I think is really important to talk about because my son was in school, he was in preschool and. But he didn't go until he was almost a year. I forego. I forgot, I forgot. I'm sorry. I'm sleep deprived. All the vaccines until he was almost a year when I put him into preschool because I was in a program to like go to school and you get welfare, you get the child care covered, all that stuff. Right. So no vaccines. My son was never sick a day in his life. To this day still. I nursed him until he was 7, which I know people think is weird, but in other cultures they do it my. During COVID someone said it, we traveled to like 20 countries and neither one of us got it and neither one of us are vaccinated until when he was a year. They forced me to get it. And because I was on welfare. This brings it back to, like, why we should have a choice. Right. I was too nervous. A lot of my friends and people that know me, they forged it. They told me I go to Vistaprint. So what happens is when you take that.

[Tom]

Right?

[Elie Azar]

And you said you didn't know how many states have that privilege, the religious exemptions? All of them do, except for three. California being one of them, sadly, Mississippi and West Virginia. So we were not able to just say, listen, it's my body, my choice, my religious beliefs. As someone said, I want to decide for myself and my son.

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah. So you're sharing the story of your son. And I'm so glad that it worked out that your son didn't get one of these vaccine preventable illnesses. We largely don't see a lot of these vaccine preventable illnesses because of vaccines. Smallpox, polio, measles, for the most part, all of these vaccine preventable illnesses are no longer seen. And that's partially why that if a single person doesn't get a vaccine, they end up not getting the illness.

[Elie Azar]

And then let me just go against your.

[Dr. Mike]

Okay, I'll just finish that point because it's so valuable and you're sharing the story about your child. And I'm so happy that because I never want a child to get sick, period. I have people in my practice because I'm a family medicine actor. I treat children and adults who are 95 years old, 100 years old, who have smoked all their life. And they're healthy.

[Elie Azar]

They're healthy.

[Dr. Mike]

It's weird.

[Elie Azar]

I know it happens, but does that.

[Dr. Mike]

Mean I'm going to use that as a reason as to why I shouldn't discourage people from smoking?

[Elie Azar]

I understand that, but the herd immunity concept. This brings me back to my next point. I used to get like nailed to the cross before he was vaccinated. And even when he did, I only did it. I'd only let them do one at a time. Because the problem is, how much did.

[Dr. Mike]

You pay for the vaccines?

[Elie Azar]

I did it. Remember, I'm poor, I'm on welfare at this time.

[Dr. Mike]

Look at this.

[Elie Azar]

So I was forced.

[Dr. Mike]

We're paying for medical care to prevent and save you the trouble of an illness. Thank you so much.

[Elie Azar]

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[Dr. Fauci]

Dr. Mike, it's good to meet you. I'm Hunter Howell. Oh, man, it's a beautiful day, isn't it? So when it comes to the science, right. Back in the day, it was labeled misinformation. If you were to question the validity of, for example, masks. But just out of last year, an epidemiologist, Tom Jefferson, came out with a rigorous analysis that stated that they had no effect benefiting people in terms of the reduction of getting respiratory illness, including COVID 19. Right. You have Anthony Fauci, which I know we've talked about today in regards to the social distancing, right. It was, trust him, trust the science. But he said in a Congressional House subcommittee that there was no science behind it, and he got grilled for that. So when we're demonized and we're talked about years ago that we're, you know, these anti Vaxxers, these skeptics, these really bad people, and that we're villains. Well, not only are we not villains, we're speaking the truth and we were censored on it. So I would kind of like your thoughts on that about, you know, all of the information I said I view.

[Dr. Mike]

Someone as an anti vaxxer that knows the data exists as it is and then spreads things that are not true or stretches the truth in a way to make things valuable for them. The people that I have seen being anti vaxxers, I think that they're being villains by spreading that misinformation because they're leading people to make bad decisions about their health care.

[Dr. Fauci]

So to correct, correct me if I'm wrong, you're villainizing people for exercising their first amendment right in the Constitution of free speech.

[Dr. Mike]

No, I think that when you're starting to say things that impact other people's decisions, I view it negatively through a negative lens, knowing what I know about vaccines.

[Dr. Fauci]

So then could we also flip the narrative and say that they were harming people and the information that they were giving out?

[Dr. Mike]

No. The people that took the COVID vaccine had a lower death rate significantly. In fact, when we were working in the hospitals, those especially early on, those who were most sick and who were sick by larger numbers were people who weren't vaccinated.

[Dr. Fauci]

I think a lot of people in here, including myself, have a huge distrust. Of course, in the United States government and in the mainstream media as well as in the science, what lets hear a distrust? Well, the fact that they got it wrong. We can't villainize people or call them villains just because they disagree. When, when they disagree, they can be talking with facts, things of substance that are true. As many people here have said today, it's not coming from a state of emotion. The death rate of COVID I know it fluctuated on the timeframe, but it was under 1% from December to January of 2022. The CDC has the numbers on it. It was less than half of a percent, less than a tenth of a percent. It was 0.06%. People were dying of it. Now don't get me wrong, that's terrible, but with all the information we know now, you know, how can we still villainize people that are anti vaccine completely due to how much that the government and big Pharma got.

[Dr. Mike]

I'll answer that question with one simple sentence based on something you just said.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Okay.

[Dr. Mike]

About 100 plus million lives have been saved by vaccines.

[Dr. Fauci]

From the Lancet?

[Dr. Mike]

Yes, from the Lancet. And you Agree with that stat. Approximately.

[Dr. Fauci]

I agree with the Lancet's findings. Yes.

[Dr. Mike]

And yet you have anti vaxxer like RFK Jr saying statements like there's no such thing. Thing is a safe vaccine. That's a villain.

[Dr. Fauci]

Yeah. So I don't think he's a villain because he thinks that there's.

[Dr. Mike]

How do you not think someone's a villain when the vaccines you just said saved over 100 million lives and this person's encouraging people to not take those vaccines.

[Dr. Fauci]

Yeah. So I think that was a little bit out of context. Right. When he's saying people do not take the vaccines, once again, he's giving his opinion off the information that he knows to be true. We can't villainize someone for disagreeing with them.

[Dr. Mike]

Okay, pause. Turn to your seat.

[Dr. Fauci]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. Mike]

Thank you. Now choose someone from the circle to debate again for another 10 minutes, but based on a claim of their choice. So many choices. How about my local northern New Jersey friend? Seems like you have a very personal story that has impacted you. You're in the area where I practice healthcare, and it seems like you're very well read up on facts and are ready to challenge me, which I love.

[Janelle]

So my claim is just as you may have said, there really is no safe vaccine.

[Dr. Mike]

I think that it largely depends on what your definition of safe is. When you're outdoors, there's a chance you could get hit by lightning, but if you're in a field by yourself, I consider that to be a safe place. Does that mean it's without risk? No. There's bacteria in the ground, there's lightning above. There's all sorts of risks. But I think when you weigh the risk versus benefit, to say that means you're largely ignoring data that shows that vaccines are largely safe.

[Janelle]

So I think we have a differentiation or a difference of opinion on the actual data. When we spoke about vaers and those adverse reactions, if anybody ever goes to look at that, pulling that data and putting it into something that's actually able to be viewed and parsed out by your average patient or your lowest common denominator patient, it's next to impossible.

[Dr. Mike]

Well, that's not what it's for. It's for the researchers to find patterns. Because one thing happening to one individual, even across thousands of patients, does not necessarily mean that there's a causative pattern. I have a question for you. What do you consider a safe activity?

[Janelle]

I don't think I could come up with a completely safe activity, and I think safety would be complete. Safety is not life.

[Dr. Mike]

I agree.

[Janelle]

Well, I think we can put it on balance. Right?

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah.

[Janelle]

So speaking in the absolutes, what's completely safe? It doesn't exist. So we're arguing over something or debating or conversing over something that is really not an intellectually honest dialogue.

[Dr. Mike]

Fair.

[Janelle]

So when you look at vaccines and you have to put on balance, where's the risk, where's the benefit? Well, I draw it back to where my children were and I. I'd push back a little bit on your claim where you said that the reason that there were no pediatric deaths is because we vaccinated. That sequence is a little bit out of line from my standpoint. There was no risk, yet we vaccinated anyway. And then when we vaccinated, then came the deaths or the adverse reactions or the ones we've yet to see. Thrombosis, menstrual problems, fertility problems, especially for girls, women, thrombosis.

[Dr. Mike]

You've heard of myocarditis in young males post vaccine pericarditis. We're not hiding that. We believe that it happens. But at the same time, you need to look at the natural incidence of myocarditis. Meaning, like, what is the rate that it happens to an average person, irrespective of what condition they have? And then you have to go one step further and compare it to what is the other side of that coin, which is getting COVID 19 without the vaccine and what the risk of developing myocarditis after that will be. And there are times where scientists sometimes, to win an argument, are going to be like, oh, you'll never get myocarditis if you get the vaccine because you're not getting COVID 19. The vaccine doesn't prevent it 100% of the time. We have to be honest in that. But when we compare the rates of getting myocarditis with the vaccine or getting myocarditis from COVID 19, it's much higher in COVID 19 than it is with the vaccine.

[Janelle]

So my position would be mortality, right? It's quality of life, quantity of life. If the mortality for a child was zero and we give them a vaccine that has known risks, doesn't that give you pause?

[Dr. Mike]

So when we look at side effects of conditions or vaccines, we don't just look at mortality, we look at morbidity. So, for example, with measles, the mortality might not have been in the hundreds of thousands, but the amount of children hospitalized, the amount of children that got immensely sick leading to losing their hearing, with certain conditions, that was higher. So it's not just about mortality, it's also about morbidity.

[Janelle]

So. But if you look at the numbers, the totality of, you know, you look at your N plus one patient, which is the one where you give vaccines, that's where that one patient gains benefit over detriment that didn't exist in children with no other comorbidities. My example to you is a perfectly healthy child, no comorbidities, no diabetes, no obesity, no kidney, a perfectly healthy child, and then giving them a vaccine that has risk over and above benefit. I'll let you know. When I was a younger man, I was a smoker. Smokers are more prone to get lung cancer. You certainly wouldn't administer, as a responsible physician, you wouldn't administer me chemotherapy just because I smoked.

[Dr. Mike]

Correct. But I would encourage you to stop smoking as an easy prevention.

[Janelle]

I did. But I certainly wouldn't take chemo if I smoked.

[Dr. Mike]

Yeah, for sure.

[Janelle]

There's an exposure. Children were.

[Dr. Mike]

Well, the risk of chemo is much higher if you don't need it than is vaccine. Which is why I said earlier this conversation that vaccines carry a much higher bar than a pharmaceutical because vaccines are given to healthy people. In your specific example, because this is hyper specific and I don't like necessarily using a hyper specific example to create a rule or to make that the norm because there are so many other childhood vaccinations that are at threat with the current potential of RFK Jr coming in. So that's the concern for me. In your situation, the reason your child ended up getting the vaccine was because one of her parents wanted to get the vaccine, Correct?

[Janelle]

Correct.

[Dr. Mike]

If your wife was totally against it or her mother was totally against it, would she have gotten the vaccine?

[Janelle]

I can't really say because it's a hypothetical that hadn't happened. But I presented all the reasoned evidence of what actually threatens a child over and above. We're talking single digits. And then to vaccinate blanketly a subset of our population that could potentially put them at risk, where the cure or supposed cure or preventative measure is worse than the disease.

[Dr. Mike]

Knowing what we know now, your statements are different than what we knew then. The situation that was going on in hospitals then is not the situation that's going on now. If your case was brought up in a court now, it would be a very different situation. And again, we're saying the court mandated it. And at the end they may have, but it wasn't against parents will, it was against one of the parents will and one of the parents wanted it. So it's a very difficult decision with a lot of nuance. That then takes the conversation away from whether vaccines are in general helpful and are safe to. Was it fair that a single vaccine was given to a single person based on this very complex, nuanced case? Do you agree?

[Janelle]

I feel there's countless children that didn't have a voice piece like myself to present clear, unadulterated data. And in my case, the court leaned toward a pediatrician who was looking at data that now we know is bad, and we knew it was bad at that time. The trends may change.

[Dr. Mike]

Do you think that pediatrician had some sort of motive to harm your child?

[Janelle]

Follow the money.

[Dr. Mike]

So elaborate on that.

[Janelle]

So money is involved. A pharmaceutical rep comes into your office. Why do they need to send a sales rep to sell you something that is inherently good?

[Dr. Mike]

The reason why pharmaceutical reps exist is a problematic history because there was a lot of corruption that happened with it. Now there's a lot of laws in place that prevent pharmaceutical reps from giving anything of value to physicians. So, for example, I have never been compensated by a vaccine company to give vaccines. In fact, I'm going to take this one step further, and I don't say this publicly. I volunteer two to three days a week in the hospital. I don't get paid to be a doctor, nor do I take money to give vaccines to children. I do it because I'm passionate and I don't want to see children get sick with a vaccine. Preventable illness. And the fact that that pediatrician recommend that for your child, I'm sure they were trying to do what was best for your child that they believed to be true based on the evidence that was presented to them. Will that always be right? Unfortunately not, because we don't have a crystal ball. But I promise you, the people that are working behind the scenes, the doctors, the nurses, we're trying our best. And I know this situation was really unfair, the way that it played out with. Perhaps your wife wanted one thing, you wanted another thing. That's not what we want for our patients. We want to prevent children from getting sick. We don't want to see a resurgence of measles. We don't want to see a resurgence of polio. We don't want paralyzed children. I promise you that, and I see it every day in my hospital.

[Janelle]

I'll take you at your word, Doctor.

[Dr. Mike]

Thank you.

[Dr. Teresa Long]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mike]

In talking to Tom, I think it's an interesting case because it provides a lot of challenges, both from a philosophical and medical legal perspective. And I'm actually very glad that Tom was open to the fact that the information provided to him by me today was honest, was transparent, that he saw it as that. But again, I think it's very difficult to take that situation and then extrapolate it to childhood vaccinations as a whole.

[Janelle]

I would credit Dr. Mike. I think he did a great job, number one. I think it's courageous. I think his reasoning and his logic was valid and he really. He changed my mind on a couple of things.

[Hunter Howell]

I believe Dr. Mike was really feeling a lot of what I said. It seems like it really hit a point with him. And I'm glad because I really care about people and I could see that he does, too. It's just that he's been miseducated by this system that's profit over people.

[Dr. Mike]

There were a few people who really believed that nature was the way.

[Leona Warner Gray]

God has already given us the natural remedies through foods, through, like, apricot seeds that heal cancer, and they want to silence us for that.

[Dr. Mike]

I have to say that nature is absolutely violent. Nature created bacteria, Nature created viruses. Nature also gave us an immune system and the ability to create vaccines and treatment for those issues.

[Leona Warner Gray]

They're trying to kill us with the vaccine like they're trying to depopulate the world.

[Dr. Mike]

My goal in being here today is explaining the exact need for as to how we've been able to eradicate smallpox, polio. And my hope is today that you can watch this video and see that vaccines work and save lives. Don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever you get your podcasts so that you don't miss an episode. And if you want to watch the video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.