Surrounded – “Ex-Mafia Boss vs 20 Cops”

Podcast: Surrounded by Jubilee Media
Episode Date: January 18, 2026
Theme: One former mafia boss, Michael Franzese, faces off against 20 law enforcement officers in a series of rotating, often heated debates about undercover stings, ethics in policing, paid informants, crime-fighting motivations, and the culture of the Mafia.

Episode Overview

This bold and provocative podcast episode puts Michael Franzese, ex-capo in the notorious Colombo Crime Family, at the center of a circle of 20 current and former law enforcement professionals. Each claim tackled explores deeply polarizing issues on criminal justice, policing ethics, informant reliability, and the essence of organized crime culture. Voices frequently clash—sometimes finding common ground, often remaining worlds apart. The debate is raw, rich, and unfiltered, packed with both lived experience and personal conviction.

Key Topics & Discussions

1. Do Undercover Sting Operations Manufacture Crime?

Segment Start: [05:00]

• Franzese’s Argument:

  • Undercover stings often manufacture crimes that wouldn’t have occurred otherwise, particularly via confidential informants (CIs) who "bring" a crime to a suspect and entice participation.
  • “When you wire up a confidential informant and that informant brings criminal activity to that other person... That’s entrapment as far as I’m concerned.” —Michael Franzese [07:33]

• Police Counterpoint:

  • Entrapment is only present if someone with no predisposition is induced to commit a crime.
  • Cops argue the real decision to offend is always with the suspect; the opportunity is presented, but not forced.

• Nuance:

  • Officers contend most stings are not random—targets are already under suspicion, investigations are heavily documented, and CIs help “locate crime that’s already in place.”
  • Franzese offers personal examples, like an 8-month failed attempt by feds to implicate him and boxing promoter Don King.

• Memorable Exchange:

  • “You created a crime for a guy that never was in trouble in his life.” —MF [13:10]
  • “But if he wasn’t already thinking he could get away with it…he would say no.” —Officer [13:35]

2. Is It Ever Acceptable for Law Enforcement to Break the Law to Catch Lawbreakers?

Segment Start: [31:18]

• Franzese’s View:

  • Law enforcement at high levels sometimes “stretch” or cross ethical/legal lines to take down big-name targets, citing examples like perjured testimony, withheld evidence, coerced witnesses, and notorious controversial figures (James Comey, Andrew Weissmann, etc.).
  • “You have to admit that big names give people in law enforcement an incentive to work a little harder to bring them down. Because you get rewarded for that.” —MF [40:12]

• Law Enforcement Response:

  • Most agents follow procedures at all times, under heavy oversight and risk of career ruin for misconduct.
  • “I want to believe that most people in law enforcement are straight up and they do their job… but, come on…there’s many times where they will stretch, because it puts a feather in their cap.” —MF [44:36]
  • “The organizational culture that I served put a premium on integrity and doing the right thing.…Are there agents who slip up? Of course. But the culture doesn’t tolerate it.” —FBI Agent [53:14]

• Political Flashpoint:

  • The discussion becomes heated and political around allegations towards the FBI, James Comey, and the politicization of justice during recent administrations.
  • “Many people have lied to Americans about the FBI and its actions…it’s a misconception spread by media figures.” —FBI Agent [57:00]

3. Do Law Enforcement Promotions Rely on Arrest Stats, Not Safer Streets?

Segment Start: [01:02:30]

• Franzese’s Take:

  • At higher levels, the pursuit of high-profile arrests can become self-serving, with big convictions leveraged for promotions, especially by prosecutors.
  • “When you get these high-level prosecutions and convictions, it’s a feather in your cap…and many times it happens.” —MF [01:12:22]

• Law Enforcement Pushback:

  • Officers from street-level to federal flatly reject the idea that arrests equate to personal gain on the majority of the force.
  • “My arrest record is a reflection of my work ethic, not my ambition for promotion.” —Officer [01:16:40]
  • Many officers describe long hours, personal risk, and the “thanklessness” of chasing crime; some say their efforts destroyed their private lives rather than delivered career rewards.

• Federal vs. Local Distinctions:

  • Cops draw contrasts between county/local, street-level police work and federal, top-tier organized crime task forces.

• Filled with Dark Humor:

  • “Am I going to talk about Hillary Clinton or John Gotti?” —Officer [01:15:57]

4. Are Paid Informants Reliable?

Segment Start: [01:32:45]

• Franzese’s Experience:

  • Robustly contends that the majority of paid informants, especially in organized crime, are not reliable, frequently lying under oath for freedom and financial rewards.
  • “I saw my brother get on a stand and testify against my father…he lied. If my own brother will lie against his father…you give them money, you give them incentive.” —MF [01:33:54]

• Police Perspective:

  • There are checks and corroborations in place; informant testimony alone is rarely enough for conviction.
  • “We have to check and verify…if they’re getting paid to lie, our case gets thrown out.” —Officer [01:45:10]
  • Officers admit the process is imperfect, but dispute Franzese’s broad denouncement; also argue prosecution offers incentives for the public good—if the informant’s claims pan out.

• Nuanced Reflections:

  • One officer acknowledges the system incentivizes protection of personal freedom more than truth.
  • “There’s no glamour in working organized crime. What I got was a destroyed relationship with my ex, years of lost personal time. No promotions, no incentives.” —Federal Agent [01:23:50]

5. Does Mafia Culture Glorify Success Through Fear and Intimidation?

Segment Start: [01:56:40]

• The Law Enforcement Position:

  • The Mafia’s “respect” and advancement relies on a climate of fear, violence, and unpredictability.
  • “Your power is legitimized through intimidation and fear. If you took those away, you wouldn’t have the ‘respect’ you think you have.” —Heather (Law Enforcement) [01:57:12]

• Franzese’s Nuance:

  • Partially agrees fear exists but insists it’s not the sole driver; successful mobsters needed brains and skill—fear was only one management tool.
  • Tells stories: “Walking into a room with that ‘aura,’ sometimes it worked for me…but smart bosses know violence and fear are destructive.”
  • “Love is more important than fear—if you’re feared, people betray you when something bigger comes.” —MF [02:03:05]

• Insightful Parallels:

  • Both acknowledge similarities in how both Mafia and police wield the “aura” of fear.
  • “Who doesn’t get scared seeing a police officer? It’s that aura, the uniform. People fear you can lock them up, hurt them…. Fear keeps people in line in our life too.” —MF [02:07:33]
  • Officer stresses police fear is public-cultivated, not weaponized internally (“When I was a kid, I saw police as heroes”).

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Undercover Operations:

  • “I would’ve had nothing to say no to if the government didn’t try to trap me into it…They tried to lay a trap for me and Don King, but I didn’t bite.” —MF [19:20]

• On Achievements and Promises:

  • “When police get a big conviction, not automatically but it happens…they become a federal judge the next day.” —MF [42:03]
  • “What I got for busting big names? A pat on the back, a destroyed marriage, years of lost private time. No promotion.” —Federal Agent [01:23:50]

• On Paid Informants:

  • “The bad apple doesn’t define a bad orchard.” —Officer [01:47:55]

• On Fear as a Motivator:

  • “Is it better to be feared or loved? Chaz Palminteri said it’s better to be feared. I say he’s wrong. When RICO came, the fear shifted—from the mob to the government.” —MF [02:04:47]
  • “So there’s a bit of intimidation factor when you walked in…That’s the aura…Maybe the fear was from the other side.” —MF [02:02:45]

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------------|:--------------:| | Undercover Stings & Manufactured Crime | 05:00 | | Police Ethics: Is Breaking the Law Ever Justified? | 31:18 | | Arrests vs. Safer Streets: Motivation & Reward | 01:02:30 | | Are Paid Informants Reliable? | 01:32:45 | | Mafia Culture: Fear and Intimidation | 01:56:40 |

Tone & Language

• Candid, confrontational: Both sides root conversation in their personal, often emotional, experience and perspectives.
• Streetwise humor & direct challenges: “I think more of your guys than my guys have been indicted for murder.” —MF [00:01], “Do you know John Gleason?…What happened to him? He became a judge.” —MF [01:12:23]
• Respect emerges amid disagreement: “Normally if I’m surrounded by 20 law enforcement agents, I’m under arrest. This was nice.” —MF [02:13:30]
• Occasional political friction, but effort to keep discussion on real-world ethical dilemmas, practical experience, and the gray area of criminal justice.

Conclusion

This episode of Surrounded is a gripping and nuanced exploration of criminal justice, viewed from diametrically opposed worlds. Michael Franzese’s measured candor—a criminal’s eye for law enforcement tactics and the psychological culture of the Mafia—meets the officers’ deep experience in procedure, personal cost, and the moral imperatives of the justice system. Both sides spar openly. While consensus is rare, mutual respect and insights about the ambiguous reality of fighting and defining crime make this a must-listen for anyone passionate about law, policing, and the psychology of power.

Memorable Closing Moment:
“Listen, our neighborhoods were the safest around. There was no street crime going on unless we were doing it. And we weren’t doing it like that…We helped people in our community.” —Michael Franzese [02:14:45]

For more challenging debates, subscribe to Surrounded on your favorite platform, and follow Jubilee for full video versions on YouTube!