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Has the FBI Always Been Corrupt? | 1 Ex-Mafia Boss vs 20 Cops Surrounded Follow-Up
00:49:33
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- [00:00]
A
In this day and age, all of us, no matter who you are, we're influenced by the information we take in. Take into account that very often the people alleging the so called political motivation of the FBI are themselves hyper partisan.
- [00:16]
B
Now, if we want to talk what happened with ICE in Minnesota, what I can say is that in New Jersey, we don't. We're not supposed to shoot at moving vehicles unless we have another. We have no other avenue of escape. Right. You know, underneath the Constitution, underneath the Fourth Amendment, when we place somebody under arrest or we're holding onto them and they're in our custody, it's our job to make sure that they're okay, regardless of whether or not they're a good person or a bad person or they've made bad decisions. It's our responsibility.
- [00:44]
C
All right, let's get into this. I'm here with Tom from Surrounded. Tom, welcome back into a less combative environment, but welcome back onto in the Jubilee universe. How you doing?
- [00:59]
A
I'm good, thank you for having me.
- [01:03]
C
What is your memory like from your exchange with Michael in Surrounded? That was probably one of the more contested exchanges of the session.
- [01:16]
A
Yeah, it didn't start off that way. It started off friendly enough, but as it went on, I mean, he has strong viewpoints and. And there were some things I felt inclined to push back on. And it went from there. Yeah.
- [01:34]
C
And for anyone listening to this, do you mind kind of elaborating on your experience in law enforcement? Because that was something that came across that I thought was really interesting is you have, you know, you worked with the FBI, but you've had relationships with police officers. So you really have like a broader amount of just touch points with, with law enforcement in America. Do you mind covering that or breaking that down?
- [02:05]
A
Sure, yeah. I was an FBI agent for 23 years. I retired in 2020 at the beginning of that year. And I worked a variety of assignments in my bureau career, all in the. The LA office. And I never worked organized crime. So his experiences being the subject of an organized crime investigation by the FBI in the 80s in New York, I obviously have no knowledge of that and didn't work that violation. But I was married for a dozen years to an LAPD officer, a detective, whom she was a patrol officer when we first met. But in the course of my FBI career, I worked in several task force environments and getting a sense of the sort of varying cultures. Every law enforcement agency has its own culture. And even within an agency, to use LAPD as an example, there are a number of geographic divisions in the lapd, what in New York we call precincts, a perception people have of law enforcement is one monolithic block. But it isn't so, you know, there are differences between the east coast and the West Coast. How certain things are done, attitudes, training varies, and above all, the operational experience of agencies vary. And police agencies are shaped by those experiences, shaped by the things that go right, by the things especially that go wrong, by controversy and are ever changing. I think it's important for people to remember that law enforcement is not a static, monolithic beast, but one that is responding, responding to society, responding to the expectations of society. When I started in the FBI, for example, the FBI didn't record interviews. And it stemmed from an era where it was just understood that if an agent testified, the jury would accept their testimony, that that wouldn't be questioned in any way. It was just a sort of a.
- [04:41]
C
Wow, that's interesting given.
- [04:42]
A
And meanwhile, at the same time, local agencies had long ago begun recording interviews. And it's only in recent years, towards the end of my career, that we started recording interviews. And that's now. I'm not sure where it is exactly now, but it's moving to be sort of the standard because juries are evolving too. They respond to what they see in the news, they respond to what they see in media. The show CSI was very popular for a number of years and it led to something called the CSI effect, where jurors came in with an expectation that police forensic science had all the capabilities that they saw on tv. And it's something that, you know, prosecutors would have to, you know, educate a jury to sharpen their expectations, to make them more realistic. So it's fluid.
- [05:41]
C
I like that you kind of touch on that. The relationship or the perception of the public of how law enforcement operates and also just the, I think the core character of law enforcement and how the general public views, that has changed quite a bit. Obviously it's been hyper politicized in recent years. And that came up in your conversation with Michael, which was honestly a little unexpected for me as the viewer, because you were coming in to kind of say, hey, this is what I know to be the culture of law enforcement. And he pushed back on that, but then it really quickly escalated to politics at the forefront of culture right now.
- [06:27]
A
So.
- [06:27]
C
So I want to play that back to you, just kind of hear your thoughts on the exchange and see if we can dig into it more.
- [06:35]
A
The thing that I want you to listen to as I've listened to you, and I want the audience to hear Is that the organization that I work for, which is made up of thousands of human beings who have all the flaws of every person, but the organizational culture that I was raised in, that I served, put a premium on integrity and doing the right thing. Are there agents that.
- [07:05]
D
And I believe. Yeah, okay, I believe you and I think that you're sincere in that regard. But can I ask you a question? Why is it that everyone, all of America practically has no trust in the FBI right now? No trust in our government agencies?
- [07:22]
A
Many people have lied to Americans about the FBI, FBI and about its actions and have mischaracterized the FBI. They have mischaracterized, observed.
- [07:31]
D
There's a different not people lying. They've observed the FBI. Let me tell you now, I, I, I like Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, I know him. Very ethical, good guy with integrity. I'm so happy that he's the, the, the deputy director of the FBI because he has integrity. I can't say that for the last people. And all of America, a good portion of America believes the same thing because of their actions.
- [07:55]
A
Actually, I think it's because they're being lied to frequently by figures in the media.
- [07:59]
D
By who?
- [08:00]
A
Well, you're doing it right.
- [08:02]
C
What comes to mind? Just kind of seeing that exchange play.
- [08:06]
A
Out in this day and age, all of us, no matter who you are, we're influenced by the information we take in and depending on what source we turn to, that will shape our perception. The mission of the FBI is the most diverse of any federal law enforcement agency. It is responsible for counterterrorism, counterintelligence, a variety of criminal offenses, from white collar crime to organized crime, public corruption. And it has had the unpleasant duty of being brought into investigations of very prominent political figures who have very passionate constituencies. And there's a natural tendency that if you support someone and they become the subject of an investigation and the media sources your placing your trust into are presenting the FBI as being motivated by a political agenda. I would just caution your viewers to take into account that very often the people alleging the so called political motivation of the FBI are themselves hyper partisan and perhaps have a political reason for doing so. It may be as sincere. I mean, I don't doubt that Michael's views are sincere, but from his other comments in the episode, it's clear he has very strong political views as well. And perhaps the sources of information that he's taking in are shaping his view. And so he sees every action of the FBI as somehow in a certain timeframe, he's totally okay with the Bureau now it's the same FBI. It hasn't the leadership changes from administration to administration, although some directors terms span more than one presidency. But in my tenure, when I started, Bill Clinton was president and when I retired, Donald Trump was president towards the end of his first term, largely I didn't see any change in the FBI except there were natural, different emphasis on certain programs, often in response to what was happening in the world. So in the 90s we were focusing more on domestic terrorism and after 9 11, naturally international terrorism became our primary mission in terms of prevention. But the, the organizational culture didn't change. The, there would be natural policy differences that normally follow from an administration, but from the, from the ground level, from the street agents perspective, you know, the, the way the FBI in general approached its work didn't change. But his representation that the previous leadership was somehow tainted and corrupt, I don't think that's an accurate characterization.
- [11:37]
C
And I mean Comey was somebody who came up in your exchange and, and we didn't get into details but you know, there were some insinuation that Comey had, had acted with corrupt intent or, or betrayed the standards of, of law enforcement with his, during his time as the, as the head of the agency. Do you think this politicization of the bureau, this politicization of law enforcement, do you think this is temporary? Do you think this is a, a new dynamic that's going to be around for some time?
- [12:18]
A
I think it all depends on what, what's happening in the world, you know, what's happening in our domestic politics. If the FBI's mission requires it to investigate a certain matter, depending on what that controversy is about, it may, it may result in this same pattern that we've seen, you know, regarding all of these investigations which, you know, the bureau has investigated at times. President Trump has investigated Hillary Clinton, many Democrats and Republicans, public corruption cases on all sides of the aisle. And those investigations never make anybody happy that supports those individuals. I remember a number of years ago there was an investigation that led to a search the bureau conducted of, I believe it was the Senator's office in Capitol Hill. And senators from both sides of the aisle were unhappy because that felt very threatening to them. I think law enforcement generally is often a confrontational business. If you're investigating someone, especially someone with power, with clout, with a microphone, you can expect they're going to push back. And police agencies are very limited in what they can say about a matter as it's ongoing historically. They're loath to comment about things that may wind up in court, whereas the public official or the supporter of that official or prominent person, if it's not a public official, they're not limited in that same way. And so they can make statements. And unfortunately, we're in a hyper partisan era. So in the short term, I see this is going to be a continuing challenge. The challenge for the agency, there's no avoiding the job. There's no avoiding the case you get assigned to investigate. The challenge is to keep your head down and to do your job. Part of being a professional is putting one's personal feelings aside. And if those feelings are so strong that you can't fairly investigate, then I think an agent should. And I've done that. And years ago, I was asked to be part of the Rampart investigation of the LAPD major corruption scandal. And I had some experience with civil rights cases, so I was approached. But at the time, I was engaged to be married to an LAPD officer who'd been part of that division at one time, knew many of the officers that were going to be scrutinized. I'd met some of them socially, and I talked to my. My chain of command about that being perhaps not something I should be involved in. Just, it wasn't so much that. That my feelings were so strong that I couldn't be fair. But to anyone on the outside, it might not look right, understandably. And, you know, I didn't have to work that I was excused from that assignment. So there are times when someone might say, hey, I really shouldn't be part of this. There was an FBI executive who'd had extremely partisan conversations with another employee, Peter Strzok, about Donald Trump in the 2016 campaign. When Robert Mueller learned of those exchanges, he removed struck from that investigation properly. Because again, even if the individual could conceivably be impartial, such strongly held views that had been made known to former Director Mueller, it just was a bad look and a potential hazard. And so he shouldn't have been involved in that case. And he was shortly removed from it.
- [16:48]
E
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- [17:17]
B
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- [17:20]
A
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B
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- [17:39]
A
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- [17:47]
C
Yeah, and these are, these are instances that you're describing where you know that that's the way it should go. There should be a, an instinct of reflection in officers and leadership to, even if there's just potential appearance of conflict of interest, it's in the best interest of the institution to, you know, not include that person or to remove that person. Unfortunately, those, that level of reflection and, and, and caution and institutional protection seems to not be norm at the moment. We're seeing kind of a much more, just like you said earlier, politicized environment where from administration to administration, the view of who's running the FBI shifts radically and who approves of it and who doesn't. And something that Michael said to you was nobody trusts. And this is kind of, this is a sentiment more than like, necessarily backed by data. But I'm sure there is some data that supports his claim that the general public doesn't trust the FBI, and he says it's because they've observed the FBI. What if, if there was a listener right now who is, you know, really wanted to know why they should trust the FBI. What do you think is the best argument you would have for them to counter what Michael's saying?
- [19:25]
A
Well, I'll, I'll offer two things. I'll offer one from a personal standpoint. Obviously, your viewers don't know me personally, don't know whether I'm a trustworthy person or worthy of their trust, but just sharing my, my personal experience of being part of that organization, working, as I said, in the FBI, you know, during tumultuous times. You know, I was an agent when Bill Clinton was being impeached all the way up through the first Trump term. My personal experience, I, I did not observe agents or managers conducting themselves in a way with a political agenda or with a political goal. And that may be hard for some viewers to accept if they've heard relentlessly from people and maybe people that they believe in, that, oh, the FBI is out to get this person or that person. And those complaints, I should say, are made by people across the political spectrum. You know, it's not as if it's only ever coming from one side of the street. And again, I would go back to that. The mission of the FBI, we don't get to. We don't get to choose what we investigate when something comes to the bureau's attention and it falls within our investigative jurisdiction, which is determined by Congress. And the FBI can only investigate those matters that are assigned to it by Congress. Another thing I would say is that when FBI employees do make mistakes, there is a culture of accountability. There is Office of Professional Responsibility and Inspection Division, and some of the claims that Michael would make, which may have an element of truth to them at times. For instance, he was alleging that law enforcement will break the law to enforce the law. There may be officers individually or even a group of officers who for one reason or another have taken on that view. But that's not the culture that police agencies try to foster. For example, just as an aside, one of the civil rights cases I worked on involved an LAPD officer who had. Embroidered the probable cause for traffic stops. In fact, in a couple of cases, flat out lied about why he had stopped a vehicle that led to an arrest. And the case came to light because a sergeant, one of his sergeants became suspicious and reported it turned out into an internal affairs investigation. The district attorney was notified, the judge was notified, and the judge asked the FBI to join in the investigation. And we worked that investigation hand in hand, and it resulted not only in discipline for the officer, but a prosecution. So if an individual were to do the things that Michael alleges and an agency gets wind of it, my experience has been that that's not going to be tolerated or brushed under the carpet. So that's my subjective experience. The other thing I would say is these cases of the last few years, the cases involving political candidates on both.
- [23:24]
C
Sides of the aisle, Hillary's computer, James.
- [23:26]
A
Right.
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C
James Comey, Trump's handling of files, all of those things.
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A
So the beginning of the Russia investigation, you'll recall that a special counsel was appointed, I believe it was, by President Trump, to investigate how that investigation was started and whether there was something inappropriate.
- [23:51]
C
Oh, yeah, and there was. There's accusations that Obama asked for sort of cause to be like a phony cause for the investigation.
- [24:00]
A
I don't hold myself out as an expert on any of these matters.
- [24:04]
C
Right.
- [24:05]
A
I had no involvement, I should say, in any way with any of these cases. Very few FBI employees of the 30,000, only a very small percentage would have had any involvement in those controversies. But what I'm trying to, you know, remind folks of is that there's been investigations by the Department of Justice Inspector General who investigated Comey's handling the. In the FBI's investigation in general, the Clinton matter involving her email server and so forth. Special counsel has looked at investigations that touched on President Trump and all of these identified mistakes, missteps, things that could have been done better. But to my knowledge, not one investigation has actually found a specific incident where they could show that the decision was made by an improper political purpose. In other words, the bearer didn't wake up one morning and say, let's go get that person and turn our. That's my subjective experience. People are free to. Others will not accept that, and that's their right.
- [25:34]
C
Did you think Michael was arguing in good faith most of the time?
- [25:40]
A
Oh, I have no reason to doubt his sincerity. We all speak from our perception and our experience and how we perceived his experiences of his own circumstances. Go back to the 1980s and that's again, something else to remind ourselves of is The FBI of 2026 is very different from the FBI of the mid-80s. If you were to bring an agent back from that era and have them, you know, go to work today, they would be struck by the changes I would have to adapt. And I've only been out six years. It's constantly changing. And the, and often in response to case law, the case law is ever evolving. And for example, you mentioned the Steele dossier. One of the mistakes the FBI made in its application to a FISA court at one time was not being. Not providing adequate information to the court about the sort of history of how that document came about, who initially initiated it. And the FISA court correctly was very critical of the Bureau for that.
- [26:57]
C
One last thing, I got to let you go. But the very last question I have for you is, is there any TV show or movie that you think was the best representation of. Of what your experience was?
- [27:10]
A
I say this, but tongue in cheek. The Office.
- [27:14]
C
I am here with Heather. Heather, welcome to the Surrounded follow up after your conversation with Michael.
- [27:21]
B
Thank you very much.
- [27:24]
C
I have a great clip I want to react to with you, but before we kind of dig into it, I'm just curious, like, how do you feel about the experience, you know, with it in your own memory?
- [27:38]
B
So I thought it was a great experience. Afterwards, walking away, there were aspects of it that were a little intimidating to me just because I'm like, I wonder if I got that Point across the right way or whether or not it seemed as though, you know, our conversation flowed enough where it seemed like it was almost as if him and I really agreed on a lot of things, just different perspective wise.
- [28:03]
C
Yeah, he seemed to gel with you. You guys had like just some natural conversational chemistry. Did that surprise you?
- [28:12]
B
No, I don't think it did surprise me. I think just because of the nature of the work that I do that I generally can find a common ground with people. And, you know, he and I have the same value system as far as God and family and things like that. We just, we've made different choices in life and, you know, his perspective is one way and mine is the other. But I think we did find some common ground.
- [28:35]
C
And yeah, that's actually something I wanted to ask you was if. Do you mind kind of explaining a little bit more of what you do for work? Because I was really impressed by how you communicated with him. And when we watched the clip, I thought it was one of the best examples of winning, like proving your claim while also really getting along with the person you're talking to. I was just surprised. I was like, she has some professional skills here. So.
- [29:10]
A
Yeah.
- [29:11]
C
What do you do? If you don't mind breaking it down?
- [29:14]
B
Yeah, I mean, I've been a cop for 22 years and I work, I've worked in areas where that kind of conversation has to happen. Right. And you know, I've gone back to school. I have, you know, a doctorate in higher education. I teach across the country. I get to really talk to a lot of people in this profession and outside of this profession. But I think because of things that I've gone through in my own life personally and the people that have impacted me, whether it's someone like Michael or somebody who is maybe a victim, it's just really taught me to have an empathetic approach and understand that while my experience is my experience, that's not the same for everybody. And so to always try to be open minded, which has really helped me in my profession of law enforcement.
- [29:56]
C
Do you feel like you've gotten better at that through your job? Do you think that's something most cops are good at doing, is sort of like getting curious about the person you're. You're encountering.
- [30:07]
B
I would hope all cops are like that. I know that the majority that I work with, they really do try to dive into the why behind what people do. Right. Motive is a big aspect of what we do. Not necessarily on the arrest side of things in the investigation, but in the prosecution of things, the. The end aspect of, you know, what the criminal justice system does and actual law enforcement. So I would hope that a lot of cops do. And, I mean, I know I've gotten better at it, like, and that's what we should do, right? We should always be growing. We should learn, we should have life experience. I mean, I started this job when I was 23. I didn't have much life experience, and I've just grown through it. You know, being a mom of four, them having different age gaps, you know, living and working in different areas. The amount of experience I've had on and off the job, I just. I've given in to being able to really take in the fact that I'm just one person in a big world with one perspective based on my own bias and my own, you know, history in this life and to kind of let go of it and understand that other people aren't always going to agree with me. And, like, wouldn't that just be a great concept for everybody to grasp onto, especially right now in a climate that we have.
- [31:14]
C
Let's watch this exchange. So, like I said, you and Michael, you gelled, and he seemed to feel that way, and so he actually called you back to the center. And so you debate. You were the last person to debate him, and you brought your own claim to Michael, which was essentially that the Mafia uses a culture of fear and intimidation primarily to kind of enforce its hierarchy.
- [31:41]
D
Fear didn't cause me to be a good mob guy.
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B
But do you think the head boss used fear and intimidation more than anything else?
- [31:48]
D
He didn't use it against me. I just knew that it was there.
- [31:51]
B
I didn't mean just against you. I meant the Mafia culture as a whole.
- [31:54]
D
Yes, it's an element of fear in that life like there is in other lives, except that the consequences are more severe. But what I'm saying is fear doesn't cause you to be a success in that life. It's, to me, it's understanding the life and knowing how to use it to benefit you in whatever it is you're trying to do. But I will tell you this. You know, when I walked into a room sometimes to negotiate with somebody, well, that aura was there. I didn't have to say anything. They knew who I was. They knew what I represented. So maybe the fear was from the other side. You know, I better watch what I say here. Stuff like that.
- [32:30]
A
Yeah.
- [32:31]
B
So there's a bit of an intimidation factor. When you walked into the room because of your reputation, the way you Held yourself. So fear and intimidation are the basis of some of the leadership and the culture that is within the Mafia.
- [32:43]
D
It's not the primary driving force, but yes, it is an element and some people do use that. Yes, that's my claim.
- [32:52]
B
Sounds like you agree with me.
- [32:53]
D
Well, I agree in part.
- [32:55]
B
Liked him so much.
- [32:58]
C
Yeah, you, you guys really got along. I, I, I just found at that moment that exchange kind of mesmerizing. What do you think, watching back?
- [33:11]
B
I think, I think the program set up to try and force people to disagree and to, to have that aspect of not agreeing so much that maybe some people won't back down from their claim. And, and I just love the fact that he was so genuine in understanding. Well, what she's trying to say does have some validity or, sorry, validity, but that I still believe that it wasn't a primary factor for me. And if you keep playing that clip, if I remember there was a portion where he was like, it came down to something about love. And you know, I don't remember the exact exchange, but he said people don't hurt people they love. And I was like, I see people hurt people they love all the time. And now when I look back or when I think back about that exchange, you know, I thought about like the perfect answer to come after him or not come after him, but come to him with, come after what he said. And it would have been like, you know, you're part of your family is here. Do you think that they weren't hurt because of the things that you did within the Mafia and you going away? Like, do you think they weren't hurt by the fact that you were locked up for the crimes that you committed regardless of you loving them? So, you know, it was just, I thought it was such a great exchange. I think he is so articulate and he is so open minded and the fact that he just put himself out there to sit down and have that conversation because I do know the consequences that can come when you try to exit that kind of life. It was just, I was, I was so impressed by him.
- [34:41]
C
Yeah, well, I mean, his story is, is fascinating because you're right. How rare is it for somebody to be fully, you know, enmeshed in that life but then be able to walk away and then not only walk away, but survive and then be articulate enough to express that, you know, through media and you know, he's kind of become a media figure in his own way. And so, yeah, it's, it's a really rare window. But I want to I want to focus on you just a little bit more, because something you do in that exchange, I mean, obviously you guys seem to trust each other, and that's why he probably brought you back, was because, you know, he understood you weren't trying to make him look bad or anything like that. You were resisting the temptation, like you were saying, to lean into the format in a hyper confrontational way. But there was something that you were really able to do well is when you disagree with somebody. Because something I saw Michael doing was he would sometimes do these word tricks, which he's really good. You know, he's very articulate, where he would admit to your claim, but then he kind of reframes it or repositions it. He's like, I'm not successful because of fear. Fear is an element, but it's not the main thing. And that's sort of the tug of war that you guys are going through. But what you did so well, I thought was you didn't really chase him. You actually kind of asked him if he was afraid for his life and if he was afraid when he left. And you really directed the attention on him, which allowed him to open up. And then, you know, by the end of it, you're like, well, that's. That was my claim, you know, and it's like. It was almost like a magic trick. But I just thought that was so profound because there's really something to be said about wanting to know about the person you're having a debate with in a really genuine way. Did that feel intentional?
- [36:44]
B
You know, over the past maybe five or six years, I've really dug into understanding the why behind what motivates everybody. Mostly because I needed my own why to define who I was and really motivate me beyond where I was. And so when I conduct an interview or an interrogation, regardless of what it is, whether or not it's hiring somebody at my agency or meeting a victim, that's a crime, or interviewing somebody who might be a suspect of a crime. When you make that connection with them, it makes it easier for them to open up regardless. And I don't think it was intentional in the way that I did it. I just read him really well, and he allowed a vulnerability to come through, and he opened up certain aspects of his story that I was able to capitalize on and. And utilize to really just analyze who he was and what he was doing and the why behind it. You know, you can play words all you want, but words do matter. And so when he made certain comments, and regardless of the way that he, he manipulated the words, I was able to manipulate them right back to prove my point. And I think that's why we had such a good exchange, because it was the two of us really caring about the other person and not trying to be derogatory and, and still trying to hear the other person while understanding, like your meaning of power and influence might be different than mine.
- [38:04]
C
You know, when you live a life on the criminal, you know, side of the aisle, there still is a value system or an honor, honor system. He used the word oath. He had opened up about some of your shared values, your shared faith, you know, prioritizing loved ones. And so I think that's really always something so rich that comes out of kind of these discussions between law enforcement and people who have been convicted of crimes is that the value systems really actually overlap quite a bit. Have you felt like in the last few years or several years actually law enforcement has been portrayed in a way void of values? Have you felt misrepresented by the conversation around law enforcement?
- [38:54]
B
I think the most frustrating part for me in law enforcement and what's happened over the last couple years is being lumped into the few bad situations that are reported and incidents. And, you know, I do believe that there's a rhetoric out there about what we, who we are and what we do that is just not factual. So, you know, I've been really lucky to work for agencies that allow us to go into the community and build those relationships before it becomes an issue. I think enhanced relationships are one of the key aspects to having a positive, you know, community and law enforcement relationship. Like policing should encompass more things than just holding people accountable under the law. It should be about making people feel safe, psychologically and physically safe. And yeah, it's frustrating to hear the rhetoric about, you know, us using too much force because then the way that it is now, we're seeing cops get hurt more because they're not using force, when maybe they should like lower levels of force because they're worried about what it looks like. Or we see, you know, so many people turning away from this job because they're worried about that morning, Monday morning quarterback when we're making those split second decisions that we're having less great cops on the road to help train, to recruit, to retain officers, and then that makes our world less safe. And you know, if we really take our role as law enforcement seriously in the way that it was meant to, to be, which is to safeguard and protect, you know, protect and serve, then we need to do the things like have the hard conversations, be open to understanding other people's point of view and things like that.
- [40:27]
C
Yeah. And this obviously scales to a hyper political level in this current moment. And I know the experience of like, what's going on in, in Minnesota and with ICE officers is probably far from your experience, but what do you think is if you could throw your two cents into the arena, like, what do you think people need or what do you think Americans need to hear when it comes to the relationship between the public and law enforcement? As, as this moment is so heated and we're seeing pretty much like hand to hand combat in certain instances and obviously loss of life.
- [41:13]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think we need equilateral leadership to come together. Like, I think everybody just needs to come together. I think the benefit of the doubt needs to come too. All too often part of the issue is very much the way that incidents are portrayed. You know, you'll see a certain incident, you'll see all these different views, and certain law enforcement agencies are not allowed to put out the full body cam or anything until approved by certain entities. And so, you know, everybody's so quick to judge what happened. Now if we want to talk what happened with ICE in Minnesota, what I can say is that in New Jersey, we don't, we're not supposed to shoot at moving vehicles unless we have another, we have no other avenue of escape. Right. And in having very honest conversations, like, I wasn't in the moment, I wasn't in that officer's view, I wasn't in her view, the driver. So for me, like, I know for myself, I wouldn't have walked in front of the car. Right. Like, that's automatically putting you in a position to potentially have to use a level of force you're not comfortable using or shouldn't be using. I mean, and so am I going to rule whether or not I feel that his, his shooting was justified or not? I felt he was put in a position where, you know, he, he felt the need to. And then you can see the other side of it from law enforcement where she looked right at him and drove forward anyway. So again, I wasn't in her shoes, I wasn't in his. So I try not to judge. Like, even when everything happened with George Floyd, I couldn't watch that video for like a week because I was like, I can't watch this. This is going to, this is going to break my heart. And you know, there are different aspects of it as far as how we're trained and what to do. And. And how to act and react and how to take care of people. And, you know, underneath the Constitution, underneath the Fourth Amendment, when we place somebody under arrest or we're holding onto them and they're in our custody, it's our job to make sure that they're okay, regardless of whether or not they're a good person or a bad person or they've made bad decisions. Under arrest, search and seizure, it is our job to take care of the person in our custody. It's our responsibility. And so I think those are the kind of conversations we need to have. But they have to be with a group of people that are open to hear all the sides of it and not so steadfast in what their opinion is because of their political beliefs and who's in office, but to be on an individual level of an incident and an officer and their training and the funding and the people that committed the crimes and all the totality of the circumstances that come together.
- [43:37]
C
Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing your POV on that. So you've been a police officer for 20 years?
- [43:46]
B
22.
- [43:47]
C
22 years. I have family who, you know, they. They were police officers, but they. They left, you know, after 18 years because they just felt that the job was. Was pretty exhausting. What do you. What has been the key for you to stick with it? And, and obviously, you must enjoy it to some degree, but how do you think you've. You've been able to do it for so long? That's. That's a considerable amount of time.
- [44:15]
B
You know, I really do love this job, but I also want to quit every day. Sometimes. It's, you know, I feel like if you're doing it right, you should be exhausted because there's this trauma that comes with this job. Right. It's all about sacrifice, and that's what we do on a daily basis. You know, I sacrifice time for my family. I sacrifice my mental health because of taking on other people's trauma. Being a leader, a good leader, should be exhausting. And I, you know, I always just want my people to be physically and mentally and medically okay and healthy. And so all of that combined. The reason, I guess I come back every day is because I don't feel like I'm done making this place better than when I found it. And I have such a great core group of people around me. I have a great team where I work now. I had a great team at my past agency. My husband is phenomenal. He's such an incredible support system. I think I'm trying to be the best example I can for my children. Like, you can do whatever you want in this world and you can make an impact and people might not agree with what you have to say or how you do it, but if at the heart of what you do helps someone's life be a little bit better, that's positive. That's an impact that's worthy of a good life.
- [45:34]
C
Yeah. Well, Heather, I appreciate you giving more of your time after doing Surrounded, and I also appreciate you just giving our audience kind of a demonstration of what I think was an incredible, just like, demo of good listening and good debate. So thank you for jumping into the arena and thanks for coming back to talk about it.
- [46:00]
B
Thank you very much for having me.
- [46:02]
C
Well, Tom, thank you so much for elaborating on your experience and, and thanks first and foremost for jumping into the arena. I know Surrounded is a a daunting format to be a part of, but it was great to see you in there. It was great to see you go toe to toe with Michael and it was really great to hear about your experience. You have a lot of stories you've, you've lived through, very interesting era and, and it was nice for you to share that. So great meeting you. And who knows, maybe there'll be another time where you appear on a Jubilee show to share more. For more follow up episodes of Surrounded, be sure to like subscribe. Leave us a positive review. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching the video version, subscribe to Tubily. If you want to see video episodes of surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee's YouTube channel. Thanks for supporting us. Thanks for listening. We remember you could be wrong, so could I. Keep your mind open until next time.
- [47:03]
F
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- [47:30]
B
Experian.