← Surrounded
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- [00:00]
Brian Johnson
I don't have the luxury to be biased. I'm a little boy who loves his mother and would do anything to try and help her. I don't give a sh. Who's right.
- [00:12]
Jack
And the problem with this jubilee episode that we did, as much as I loved the experience, was that we all got pulled together as if we were unconditional RFK junior supporters, not Maha supporters.
- [00:26]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Let's do a psychedelic surrounded. We'll get you in there.
- [00:29]
Ace
That would be so cool.
- [00:29]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
And we'll set up a call a different day for that.
- [00:32]
Ace
Yeah, that would be amazing.
- [00:36]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
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- [01:05]
Brian Johnson
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- [01:20]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
All right, I'm here with Brian. Brian, welcome to the Surrounded follow up. And thanks for being in the original episode.
- [01:28]
Brian Johnson
Yeah, of course. Excited to do this. Love to continue the conversation.
- [01:31]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
I was. Of all of the cast members from this episode, I was the most eager to talk to you. I spend a fair amount of time on X these days, and your exchange with Dr. Mike was probably the most viral clip I saw come out of this episode. And it was specifically, you gave a pretty amazing. It wasn't like a monologue, but you just, you kind of like went on a tear right at the beginning in a way that, you know, it sparked audience applause from the circle. And yeah, I'm just curious, you know, like, did you. Was that like all swimming in your head going into it and you just, you know, it came really naturally to you. I'm just curious what it felt like to kind of go in there and unload that right off the bat.
- [02:18]
Brian Johnson
Well, my father was a pastor growing up, so he didn't teach me how to hunt, he didn't teach me how to fight, didn't teach me how to do anything else. But he taught me how to speak publicly. He was a man who was filled with a lot of passion. So I think I just get that from my father. What I said was not rehearsed per se. It's not like I sat there and planned out a speech. It was just passion off the cuff. It's honestly how I feel, feel. And it's how, you know, everybody who is skeptical of doctors and the medical system and Big Pharma, it is also how they feel. And I think that it is the most important thing that has to be addressed. But the medical community and Big Pharma refused to address it. And Dr. Mike, you know, voiced his concern that he's upset with RFK because RFK called him a profit monger. And the thing of it is, is that what he doesn't understand and what so many doctors and the pharmaceutical industry doesn't understand is that you're never going to restore trust by attacking the skeptic. You are going to restore trust by holding yourselves accountable, admitting your faults and admitting where you have flawed. And they are just not doing that. Instead, they're hiring PR companies to come up with these talking points to double down on refusing to accept responsibility. And all that does is it just hinders anybody who maybe is on that side. Like, I'm not against all pharmaceutical interventions. I'm just against the vast majority of them that are centered around dealing with issues that can be changed more effectively and cheaply with lifestyle changes and then not only that, but improve overall quality of life. So when they take this approach where they refuse to hold themselves accountable, they refuse to admit that research is flawed, they refuse to admit that they've made mistakes. They continue to make mistakes. What's happening with women in hrt, they said, you know, we lost a whole generation of women to horrible side effects. And not just horrible side effects of like menopause, but I mean, there's no telling their quality of life. And how many of this, you know, these women died early because there was one study where there was a misinterpretation of that data in the medical consensus. Took it from one study and ran with it. And it was. You were a conspiracy theorist if you dared to question it. And here it was 30 years later and oh, oops, we made a mistake. Actually there is no association with estrogen and breast cancer. And oh my God, if we give these women estrogen, estrogen, hormone replacement therapy, it is truly life changing for them. So they don't.
- [05:12]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
I saw that go around.
- [05:13]
Brian Johnson
Yeah, they don't Own their mistakes, they double down on it. And then like, I'm not trying to speak badly about Dr. Mike, but I think that he is a created character by pharmaceutical companies. I believe there's numerous other influencers on there that, you know, do the same thing. And they're giving these industry talking points. And one of the talking points that he brought up, you know, like the prompt that we were given was big Pharma versus Big supplement. So that's exactly what I studied for. And big supplements is, is 10% of what big Pharma is. Not only that, though, but they do not have an organized lobby on dc. So I'll give it to you that yes, they need to be held accountable. Yes, you know, they shouldn't be able to make these claims. But it is a unfair comparison to compare Big Pharma to Big Supplement when, you know, Big Pharma spent $435 million in D.C. through, you know, K Street, through lobbying. Big Supplement just simply doesn't have that. So I think that that comparison in and of itself was unfair. But then in the middle of the discussion, he went, and he started talking about big Wellness. And so I caught up on that right away and I was like, hold up, you know, big supplement, now we're talking about big wellness. And that's why I asked him, you know, where did that come from and what was the operational definition? And I said, I'll bet you dollars to donuts did in defining.
- [06:37]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
So, so listeners kind of understand. This was after, I think he pointed out that there was like a. I don't know if it's a 3 trillion dollar industry around wellness products.
- [06:46]
Brian Johnson
2 trillion in the United States, 6 trillion worldwide, and it's not big supplement. It's what they're calling big wellness.
- [06:52]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
And he was basically kind of saying like, hey, there's a, there's a double standard here. People who share some of the causes that you're voicing, hold pharmaceutical companies, that sort of medical establishment to a higher standard than they do maybe wellness influencers or wellness product manufacturers. That was sort of his argument you rebutted him with, with what you're going to share.
- [07:16]
Brian Johnson
Well, there's. Well, there's two things there. First of all, there's what about ism? Well, which I think is comical. They'll sit there and criticize people, you know, for what about ism? But it's like, look, I'm bringing up issues with the pharmaceutical company and how they're not, you know, they're not held accountable, how there's issues with Their system, how there's corporate capture and saying, oh, well, what about the supplement company? I'll agree with you on the supplement side. Like, we're in agreement. I don't like a lot of these, you know, influencer grifters. I hate the fact that these quacks are the ones, you know what I mean, that are like the. The name of, I don't want to call it alternative medicine, but, you know, an alternative approach to health. I hate that because then it takes, you know, credible people and it throws them in the same category. So I'm all for criticizing, you know, a lot of what is part of Big Wellness. That's great. We've solved that. Now let's go back to the original point. Here's what's wrong with the pharmaceutical industry. Here's what's wrong with medical research. So can you please respond to the issue at hand? And so he didn't do that. He literally came up with what I think is, you know, PR company crafted talking point that all of those influencers are using right now. And I think that when you see the evidence of that, it's really evidence of, guess what? It's not just about the science. Because if it was just about the science, we would be debating the science and we wouldn't be having these like, like I said, like, PR company created talking points of what about ism. So I felt that that was also, you know, very, very dishonest. But even the whole thing about back to the big wellness thing, and I said, I'll bet you dollars to donuts then when I go look at that study, and I said, I'm going to call you out on this. I said that they threw this massive, wide, sweeping net to include every dollar of revenue they could to come up with that $2 trillion number to say, oh, look, the pharmaceutical company, they're really not the big bad guy. Big Wellness is the $2 trillion, you know, big bad guy. And it's just like, well, let's, let's go look at that. And lo and behold, if you go to the store and you buy face wash, guess what? That's part of that $2 trillion number. If you go to the gym and you have a gym membership, that's part of that $2 trillion number. So it's exactly how I thought that they were. Like, let's just have this wide, sweeping net to try to include this money in this talking point. And it's like he was the first one to really say it, to make it go viral. And now all of Them are saying it. And you know, what I call the, you know, the minion army, they're doing it too. And that, to me, it's just, it's. It's sad that this is where we've gotten in the country where we can't just actually debate the science and we can't have a reasonable conversation when there's disagreement. And to me, that is evidence that, hey, the criticism that I'm waging against the pharmaceutical company, that they are driven by profit and that if there is something that is competitive to them, like exercise, like going after VO2 max and it's going to be more effective than their products. And to follow Dr. Mike's own logic, his own statements, those logical conclusions, it would be in their financial interest to suppress that information.
- [10:25]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Something you said in the beginning was, you know, you can't just try and discredit the skeptic and not engage with their concerns because that makes the problem worse. And that feels really true to me. And it seems to be kind of a theme that surrounds a lot of the political climate. You know, the border was a similar way. People voicing, we have really concrete concerns, things we see with our own eyes around the border. And then suddenly the left became this kind of institutional voice of like, no, everything's fine. You need to trust who we think are the experts. And you see that kind of. That sort of pattern of people raising concerns, just everyday people, not quote, unquote experts having concerns about issues, but not sort of fitting the sort of approved talking points getting suppressed or getting talked down to. You know, that was a pattern with COVID And so when you frame it like that, someone like RFK Jr. Makes a lot of sense. He is the voice of the skeptic. And you might not agree with him on everything he does, but that's sort of what he embodies. And I think that to me explains a lot of his rise. And so right off the bat, when you started debating Dr. Mike, you know, he was kind of bringing in the point that, like, everything RFK Jr. Has done so far has been really destructive. He's pulling, he's eliminating money being spent on research, he's eliminating these programs. What you were saying is America is sicker than it's ever been. So where was that money getting us in the first place? And that was sort of what stirred up the applause and that created this sort of interesting thing. I want to dig into you and I'll play you a clip here so you can kind of refresh. But sort of this tension between the individual's responsibility, like, what does somebody have to do to just figure out their own health journey versus sort of the institution, the governmental role in that, and what are they obligated to do to ensure that people can have good health outcomes? And there's sort of this tension that you bring up of like, maybe they shouldn't do anything. And what he is kind of defending is a little bit more of the status quo. So let's watch this. And then I'd love to hear more about what you were. You were bringing up.
- [12:51]
Brian Johnson
Unless you're saying we need to take that money that RFK Jr. Is cutting from the budget and we need to spend it on the approaches that we know work, then all you're doing is just supporting the system as is.
- [13:03]
Dr. Mike
Did he take half the budget and make it for exercise?
- [13:05]
Brian Johnson
Well, personally, I don't think that that's the government's role. And the reason why. The reason why I don't think it's the government's role is I'm going to tell you a story. And ultimately, this is what it comes down to. Okay? I was in a halfway house in Newark, New Jersey. Okay. I could leave the halfway house because I was technically still an inmate and I could go to my job. All right? If I veered from that path, I could literally go back to prison. Okay? But eating healthy was so important to me that I broke the rules, went to Whole Foods and bought healthy food on a $8 an hour job that the halfway house took 20%. And I still did not make excuses. And I found a way to eat healthy, okay? Doctors, the federal government, it's never going to instill that in people. And I think that it's wrong to really place that responsibility on you. You do not have the tools in your toolbox to effectively change behavior.
- [13:55]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
There's so many things that you said that I want to dig into, but that, you know, that kind of gives a hint towards your story. This is super personal for you. Do you mind sharing a little bit more of like, you know, where were you at that time in your life? And what was that? The transition like, to feel kind of the weight of, like, I'm in charge of my own destiny. This is up to me to figure out how to be healthy.
- [14:19]
Brian Johnson
So I was in a halfway house for Newark, New Jersey. I was actually there for a marijuana case. I was on the run for three years as Northern California's top 10 most wanted. Was on a private jet with. Yeah, with a whole bunch of weed. I, you know, I was Heavily involved in trafficking marijuana from Northern California, like, across the country. So I landed on a private jet in Teterboro, New Jersey. The DEA was there. I knew my rights. I knew that they didn't have the right to detain me. So I left. I was on the run for three years. They finally caught up with me, and I was in bail in New Jersey for three and a half years on an ankle monitor. They would not let me leave because I was on the run. When I was on the run, I did not speak to my family. I would not put them in that situation where they would have to lie to the police because I didn't want them, you know, to have to commit a felony on my behalf. So I didn't speak to my family for three years. My mother has Parkinson's. Her health took a dive, like a drastic dive.
- [15:18]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
I'm sorry to hear that.
- [15:20]
Brian Johnson
That's what. That's what started my obsession. Thank you for that. That's what started my obsession with health. And I started to read about ketogenic diets and how they can really help with Parkinson's. I came across Dr. Atiya for the first time when he was into ketogenic diets. And I was going to make the ketogenic food myself and send it to my mother. And I started the first ketogenic meal prep business in the country. I was on bail in New Jersey, had a curfew, had to be home at 9 o'. Clock. And it was the first legal business I ever started. We did $2 million in revenue in our first year. It was unbelievable, the response. And we had people that had cancer and were eating our food. And I'll never forget this moment. One of our customers, she had my phone, she had my cell phone number. She'd call me all the time, said, no, she had cancer. And she called me up. I recognized her number and she was crying. And I'm just thinking, oh, my God, did we get her sick? Was the food bad? Why is she crying? She was sitting in the parking lot of her oncologist. She had just left the doctor. I was the first person she called. Her doctor just told her that she was in remission and that she wasn't going to have to do another round of cancer chemo and that her chances for survival just went through the roof. And I was the first person to call. This literally almost makes me, like tear up right now just thinking about that moment. It was. It was just unbelievable. And it really showed me the power of food, what it can do for you. You Know, kept on studying, showed, you know, the power of just exercise too. And the reality is, is that I don't have the luxury to be biased. I'm a little boy who loves his mother and would do anything to try and help her. I don't give a shit who's right. I don't care if the solution is pharmaceutical interventions. I don't care if it's food, diet, exercise, hell, I don't care if it's a vegan diet. I want my mother to be healthy. And when that is how you approach research and that is how you approach everything, you just don't have, like I said, the luxury of being biased. And so I started working on a master's in applied clinical nutrition while I was in that halfway house, while I was working with people, you know, not in a clinical setting per se, but in a very in depth way to help them with their diets. And we saw, you know, all sorts of, you know, massive changes with people through diet. So I eventually had to accept the plea bargain, had to go to prison. I was in there for 18 months. And to sit there and have a food business really be focused on people's health, eating healthy myself, and then to have to go to prison. And I get it, I broke the law. You want to take my rights away, I understand that. But to have that right of, you know, being able to determine what goes into your body so that you can be healthy, that to me is a right that I don't care what law you've broken. You know what I mean? It's just like they should not have that ability to take that away from you. So when I got to the halfway house, the first opportunity that I had to get healthy food, it was like, this is what I'm going to, going to do. And I was, I was simply trying to make that point that when your health is important enough to you, it doesn't matter. The obstacle that's in your way, you will find a way, it doesn't matter. And the, and I'd say the corollary of that is that if your health isn't important to you, it doesn't matter what's in front of you, you will find a way to reject it. So that's why I think that we need to have an honest conversation about, you know, what is the government's role? What is the government's responsibility? Do we just need to create a system to where these opportunities are easily accessible to you, or do we need to create a system where we're not trying to brainwash you, but trying to program you to make you want to eat healthy. And I frankly don't think that the government would ever be able to do that. You know what I mean? Even though the government, you could say, has an interest in that, because the more people are healthy, the less it has to spend on health insurance and, you know, all of these things, etcetera, There still is a certain point where you're, you know, stepping over boundaries. And I don't believe that it is the government's right or the government has the authority or, you know, more importantly, even really the ability. You look at the war on drugs, it's a drastic failure. We thought that police were going to be able to stop something like addiction. And just like it's unfair to, you know, give the task to doctors to, you know, somehow effectively deal with chronic disease, it was unfair to put that burden on police officers and expect them to cure something that they never had the ability to cure. And so that's what I think. You know, the honest conversation needs to be had is that, look, there's chronic disease and there's acute disease. If I break my leg, I want a doctor. Something like that happens. I want a doctor. But when it comes to chronic disease and chronic conditions, big pharma is not the solution. Health will never come at the end of a needle. It will never come by putting a pill in your mouth. I don't care what they say. I don't care what the research says. You will never replace diet and exercise when it comes to chronic conditions. And we need to be real about that. And if somebody. Someone doesn't want to make good decisions with their health, and they want that magic pill to manage and mask the symptoms and the negative consequences from them making poor decisions with their health, well, look, that's fine if you want that, but you do not have the right to expect the government to spend money on research to develop that magic pill. That is the very definition of enabling. And when you go into, you know, addiction counseling and things like that, it is something that's called tough love. So, you know, and even Dr. Mike talked about that, where patients come in and want this magic pill, and it's just like, hey, forget the magic pill. You know what I mean? Like, you need to take accountability. You need to understand that there are going to be consequences for your actions if you don't start making better decisions.
- [21:12]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Right? Yeah. And something he conceded right away that you both agreed on was, you know, lifestyle changes is usually the thing that's going to be the best recommendation for patients. And I've heard a lot of criticisms, especially recently in just kind of the larger discussion that, you know, we have a medical industrial complex just sort of focus, laser focused on treating symptoms. You knock out one symptom with a pill and another one comes up and there's sort of just layer upon layer of industry. You know, that's. That's the result of that. And so I think that's. That's a really valid concern. Something I'm curious about from you though, is like there's kind of this kernel of distrust of the government, just in general being the problem solver of this, because, you know, somebody could make the argument, okay, RFK Jr. Needed to cut this stuff, but now we need to build certain things back. There needs to be money in research here or there. There should be things that the government does focus resources on. Is there? You went to prison for selling marijuana, is what I'm gathering, a substance which is now legal in the state of California and, you know, on its way to being decriminalized and possibly legal nationwide. Do you just. Is your distrust of the government partially, like, tied to that experience of like, you know, your life being the result of being imprisoned for something which now has changed, the status has changed, and the criminality that you committed is no longer wouldn't be the case today.
- [22:46]
Brian Johnson
So. So if you look at the story of what it took to get marijuana legal, it, to me is a perfect case in point. And it doesn't just, you know, relate to my own personal story. It relates to the whole political story and just the story at large and the reason why there is so much distrust. So in 2010, state of California tried to be the first state to legalize marijuana for recreational use. This was actually a time when I was heavily involved in trafficking marijuana. One of the reasons why it didn't pass is because the growers in Northern California were like, hell no. We don't want the government, you know, to have their hands in this. Like, we like our money. So if you look at the voter distribution, there was actually a lot of people in Northern California that voted no. But the bigger reason why it didn't happen is because California voted to make it legal. It did not vote to make it code commercialized, meaning that there could be a commercial industry around it making profit off of it. So the pharmaceutical companies and the alcohol companies use their lobby and use their influence. They spent millions of dollars in the state of California to see to it that it was not passed. And guess what? It was not passed. So the gentleman in Colorado looked at it and said, okay, I'm going to operate from the position that we do not live in a democracy. We live in a lobby tocracy, and that ultimately, if I want to get this law passed in. In Colorado, I need to get a lobby behind it and get a lobby to protect it. So he wrote the law specifically so that there was a commercial interest so that tobacco companies would see it as an opportunity to replace the revenue and profit that they were losing from fewer and fewer people smoking cigarettes. So he literally wrote the law so that big tobacco lobby would literally battle the pharmaceutical lobby in the alcohol lobby. And so here's all these things going on behind the scenes. Two lobbies battling each other out, and guess what? Big tobacco won. So that is literally why we have legal marijuana. And if you look at it, 65% of the country for the longest time felt that marijuana should be legal. So we have 65% of the country. That's pretty much a mandate. They want marijuana to be illegal. Well, guess what I mean, be legal. Guess what? It's still illegal. And only when we had two lobbies battling each other and one lobby said, you know what? There's profit behind this. Let's make it legal. That's when it crossed the line and it became legal. So marijuana is a very, very good example of just how you have corporate interests and ultimately profit interest that can literally go against, you know what I mean, public interest, public opinion. Is it one of the same thing? That's a different argument. But you know, how lobbying can go against public opinion. And that, to me, is just proof of just how. How much they are capable of. Like, they are literally capable of using their money, power, and influence to see to it that a law that 65% of the country. Country. Wants pass still doesn't get passed. And that is, like, why I brought up the point where I asked Dr. Mike, you know, you're talking about accountability in the pharmaceutical industry, and you're saying that, you know, ultimately they're to be trusted because they have disclosure and all the other things that he listed. And it's like, well, hold up. They created an opioid epidemic. Nobody went to prison. And it wasn't as if the United States Attorney's office didn't say, we don't have enough evidence. Evidence. You know, I can understand that if they, you know, did a really good job at hiding their tracks and there wasn't enough evidence. And that's what the United States Attorney's office was saying. But that's not what they were saying. The United States Attorney's office was saying, we have enough. We have enough evidence to convict, and we want to convict. And the DEA was also saying that. And yet nobody went to prison. And supposedly they had to give up $7 billion, but now they're even getting out of paying the $7 billion. And it's just like, if I was a doctor, if I was anybody involved in, like, Big Pharma, I would be speaking up and I would be saying, you know what? I completely and totally understand why the public doesn't trust us. Because people can literally kill hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. And do it through corporate capture, do it through the manipulation of regulatory agencies like the fda. Do it through the outright manipulation of research. They can do all of that, kill people and not be held accountable. So if you really want to restore public trust, you need to show what is being done so that something like that never happens again. And if you don't acknowledge that point and if you don't go out there and say, this is what we are doing, this is a horrible and egregious problem. People need to be held accountable. But more importantly, we need to ensure that media, social, something like this never happens again. If you are not willing to do that, then guess what? You have no accountability and you have no trust because there's no. You didn't fix the system that created this in the first place. And that's where it really got personal with me. I'm not sitting there saying that I shouldn't have gone to prison. I broke the law, whatever. I'll own it. I'll accept responsibility for my actions. But the only thing I'm saying is that if you want to sit there and you want to hold me accountable for, you know, the drugs that I sold, then the only thing I'm expecting is that the other cartels, the legal cartels, the other legal drug dealers that they be held accountable to. And one of the things that I wanted to say to Dr. Mike that I didn't say is, you know what? We're actually, you know, pretty much one in the same. We're both drug dealers who have made millions of dollars. The only difference is you did it through a legal cartel, I did it through an illegal cartel. And everybody that I was involved with got held accountable. And everybody that you're involved with hasn't been held accountable. And it's not just enough to make YouTube videos about it saying, oh, you know, more should have been done, more should have been done, you know, you're out there actively campaigning for vaccines and all of these other things. I mean, like I said, if you want all of those things to go through and you want to restore public trust and all those things that you believe in, well, I'm telling you right now, holding people accountable for that opioid epidemic and saying this is where we screwed up. This is why the FDA told doctors that it was non addictive. This is how the, you know, scientific method became flawed and there was research that said that it was non addictive and all these other things, like if you don't fix that system, you are never going to restore credibility. And you can attack the skeptics all you want, but it's just you're literally doing more in the same to prove to people that it really is profit driven. And it's so profit driven and it's so. I mean, I'll be honest with you, it scares the out of me to even say this because I understand the level of power that these people have. You killed how many people and you still haven't been held accountable. Even when there was a united United States attorney that wanted to prosecute and you still weren't prosecuted. It's just people that don't have experience with the criminal justice system, especially the federal criminal justice system, don't understand how much power and influence that takes. And so that was there and nothing has been done about it. I'm sorry, but your system has no credibility until there is a day of reckoning for the opioid epidemic, until people end up in prison for that, until all of those grieving mothers who have lost their kids to opioids and all of that, until there is that day of reckoning. I'm sorry, I don't care what you say. Your system is a falsehood. Your system is built on a mountain of lies, plain and simple.
- [30:31]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
I really appreciate you spelling that out. It paints a bigger picture here that I think people can kind of take away from. And I wish we could talk more because your story sounds fascinating. But Brian, thank you so much for doing the follow up and hopefully I'll see you in another jubilee video down the road.
- [30:47]
Brian Johnson
Have a good one. Thanks for having me.
- [30:49]
Jack
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- [32:48]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Well, Ace, it's lovely to meet you and thanks for being on the Surrounded follow up. And thanks for doing, you know, the surrounded episode with Dr. Mike.
- [32:57]
Ace
Of course. Thanks for having me.
- [32:59]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
So first things first. What was, you know, what was the general experience like? You know, going into it, what did you expect? And going out of it, how did you feel?
- [33:08]
Ace
So I actually was watching Jubilee before I even went on the episode a while before that because I always, I always really Liked discussions and watching debates and, like, seeing, you know, both sides to people's stories and stuff like that, what people have to say about current events and stuff. And when I saw. Well, you know, Jubilee does a lot of things. They're a big media company that covers a lot of ground, whether it's surrounded or whether it's, like, in person dating shows or whether it's middle ground or something like that. They have multiple, like, sections of their media company. So I kind of just appreciated all of their sections because it's just fun, you know, it's fun content to watch and, you know, it shows because of the numbers, like, how many subscribers they have. Like, they're doing something right, you know. So I ended up signing for casting emails because I've always been interested in being on, like, a YouTube series or like, a show or something like that. Just for fun, honestly, because I'm an electronic musician, and my main purpose and goal is being a producer and a dj. But I also think it's fun to do side quests, so I've always just wanted to do it.
- [34:26]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Well, this is a cool side quest to do. You know, I'm gonna play a clip for you of your. From your exchange with Dr. Mike. But what was it about this topic of, you know, RFK Jr. And, you know, healthcare, health in the United States that compelled you to be a part of it? Is this something. It seems like it's something you're passionate about in your own time.
- [34:48]
Ace
Extremely. My entire. Not the entire philosophy of my life, because there's a lot of philosophies that I live within, but one of the biggest philosophies is self improvement. So I. I do fitness, I weightlift, I try to eat as healthy as I can. You know, in America, it's not as easy to. Because sometimes I go to the store and there's still nothing to eat because it's really hard to find good ingredients. And, you know, I've traveled to Europe and, like, the bread is different there. They don't have the same chemicals or the same kind of additives or, you know, it's just different over there because of the legislation. And in a lot of European countries, they don't allow a lot of the things that they put in our food here. And the reason why they put that in our food here is because of capitalism, because of profit. And that's kind of how our country is ran. So when I saw the casting for RFK supporters, I. You know, I'm not a very political person, but I have heard about RFK and his policies, and he's probably the only politician I've ever heard about. That kind of resonated with me on a lot of things that I really care about, because I really do care. Like I said, self improvement. I really do care about self improvement. And that means, like, paying attention to what you consume, whether that's media, whether that's food, whether that's water, like, what kind of things you're adding to your life will affect your body, will affect your mental state, will affect your life experience.
- [36:18]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
I'm just curious, did you support. When he was still in the presidential race, you know, as, as a candidate, were you.
- [36:25]
Ace
I was going to vote for him, yeah. I was going to vote for him, but he dropped out of the race. So I thought his.
- [36:31]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
When he partnered with Trump, he bowed out of the race. Then he joined Trump's campaign. That was kind of. That was surprising to me. And they shook hands at that rally and there were fireworks going off. And I remember thinking to myself, this might have been a really big strategic move for Trump. Did you vote for Trump as kind of a RFK junior Proxy?
- [36:58]
Ace
I didn't vote for anybody the last election year. I'm 20 years old, so I've only just recently been able to vote.
- [37:04]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
And your first election?
- [37:06]
Ace
Yeah, this is my first election. And I didn't vote because I just didn't want to be responsible, you know, mentally for what ended up happening with the country. And, you know, I know people kind of frown upon not voting or whatever, but I don't really care. When you don't have good candidates, really, on either side, it's like, I'll just opt out of this one.
- [37:26]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Why don't we watch a clip to refresh your mind? I want to kind of talk about your exchange about fluoride with Dr. Mike, and you can kind of tell me how you felt it went.
- [37:37]
Dr. Mike
Because when we say in America that the chronic health diseases in children is going up, it is. And I think I agree with everyone here on that. Statistics don't lie. But one of those chronic issues is dental disease. So if we can do something, you know what?
- [37:50]
Ace
It can be improved by that. I think parents should stop giving their children so much sugar. Or maybe we should look at the food industry and ask why there's so much sugar in absolutely everything.
- [37:59]
Dr. Mike
Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?
- [38:01]
Ace
Are you going to bring up correlation?
- [38:03]
Dr. Mike
No.
- [38:05]
Ace
Yeah, you can walk and chew gum at the same time.
- [38:06]
Dr. Mike
So you can do both things. Like, why can't we encourage patients and Parents to not overfeed their kids, added sugars, and make government programs that improve children's health.
- [38:15]
Ace
But there's no point. Like, why would I want water with an extra ingredient if I could just have pure water? You know what I mean? Why would I need a government organization?
- [38:24]
Dr. Mike
You can buy water without fluoride, but.
- [38:26]
Ace
Why should I have to buy it? I think water, obviously it's. Nothing's free, but like water without chemicals should be free to get. If I want to drink out of my faucet, I should be able to do that without having fluoride in it, without having to worry about fluoridosis or any other, like, you know, overflow fluoridation, you know, in my body.
- [38:45]
Dr. Mike
How do you decide what a chemical is? Is dihydrogen monoxide a chemical in your book?
- [38:50]
Ace
Dihydro. Can you. Can you give me like the short version of dihydrogen.
- [38:53]
Dr. Mike
Dihydrogen monoxide.
- [38:54]
Ace
Is that oxygen?
- [38:55]
Dr. Mike
No, that's water.
- [38:56]
Ace
Water. Oh, water.
- [38:57]
Dr. Mike
But like, that's what I'm saying. Like you can.
- [38:58]
Ace
I'm not a chemist or anything. The day that the episode came out and then the week following that, which it's been a week since, basically in the debate, I felt like I did decently well. That's because, you know, the production team called me back for a post shoot interview, you know, the little interviews that they do at the end. So I thought, you know, they must have liked my passion or my point or something about it. But I just went into it kind of just riding upon the fact that I have an intention to bring up a certain point. And it wasn't my intention, wasn't even to bring up fluoride in the first place. Like, I think that fluoride is one of the biggest reasons why I support RFK in that way. Because one of his policies is to take the fluoride out of the water and like, clean up the food industry. And I really, really believe in that. I mean, if you want my opinion on the, like, how I think, how I think that Dr. Mike handled my claim. I want to say that I was already a subscriber of Dr. Mike previously before, and I appreciate his perspective on things. I think it's a very, you know, balanced perspective. I think he likes to, you know, scrutinize both sides to try to find the truth. And I appreciate that about him. But I would say that my claim about fluoride wasn't actually being addressed. He didn't address the question I had, which is, why is there fluoride in the water? Is it for dental care? Instead, I think he just ended up basically obfuscating my point. And what it felt like to me was that he was like intentionally misunderstanding what I was saying just so he could get us lost within the semantics of, like, what a chemical is. Because he could have just easily said, are you scared of the word chemical? And I would have said no. But instead he used to the dihydrogen monoxide debate tactic to make me look unqualified or like, I don't know what I'm talking about. Like saying, oh, you don't know what this word means, so you must not know what fluoride is or how it works. And that just. That's a fallacy.
- [41:17]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
I thought that was a little disingenuous. He said, I'm not trying to trick you. I'm not trying to get a gotcha. But then he did that, and it's like, that's exactly what that was. I heard his argument to some degree, which was everything, every choice the government makes or an institution focused on public health has to make is a trade off. And they're trying to kind of calculate decisions that have generate the most net good. And so he was kind of saying, fluoride in the water system, the net good is that it helps strengthen and protect children's teeth and just the general public's teeth. But there's a slight risk of, you know, fluoride, the negative effects of fluoride happening to a small number of people. And you were kind of saying, well, that's unacceptable. We should just remove that. And then people can address their concerns about oral health as individuals. And so you were kind of making a freedom argument, like, I shouldn't have to go back or take steps as an individual to get back to pure water. We should start from pure water that the government provides. And then it's up to the individual to make the decisions about how, you know, to benefit their health.
- [42:37]
Ace
I'm so glad.
- [42:38]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Am I summarizing that? Right?
- [42:40]
Ace
Yeah. I'm so glad that that's what you took from my point. Because my whole intention for going on Jubilee in the first place wasn't even necessarily about rfk. It was about bodily and medical autonomy and freedom.
- [42:55]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Right.
- [42:55]
Ace
And freedom of choice.
- [42:56]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
I picked that up from you. Why is that so important to you?
- [42:59]
Ace
Like I said, because, for example, let's say I'm going through depression or I'm having health issues and stuff, right? And I go to the gym, so I don't always have the money to pick up, you Know, a pure alkaline jug or something like that. Those are like $5 a jug. It's more expensive than milk and crazy. Yeah, I know. And so I drink the gym water. Obviously, like it comes through a filter, but it still tastes like toilet water. And you know, it's probably. It doesn't taste like my faucet, but sometimes I just tend to think like, what is actually in this gym water that I'm drinking? And back to what I'm talking about. Like, my point is like, let's say I'm going through depression or I'm trying to figure out my health situation, my mental health, or trying to just detox or something, right? If you have pure water, that's one less variable you have to consider for why you're having, you know, a hard time mentally or physically. And also, it's not just about the variables or the self improvement, but it's like we as American people in the country that has the most funding, why can't we have the purest form of human necessity like water and food? If you look into the history of how fluoride got integrated into the water system and integrated into the culture, you would see that it's like not really based on the best grounds, like the best cause. What I've read up upon is that there was a company called Alcoa that was, I think they were smelting aluminum and a byproduct of that was fluoride. But it costs a lot of money to dispose of that properly in, in safe ways. So they ended up, I don't know if it was a leak or if they intentionally dumped it in the rivers or something to get rid of it, but they were gonna get sued. At the same time there was a dentist from Colorado Springs who started noticing that people had like brown stains on their teeth and that their teeth were rock hard. And so he was like, you know, trying to figure out what was going on. Maybe it could be a new help for dental cavities. Because at the time this was like around the 40s or 30s or 40s. So, you know, dental hygiene wasn't as prevalent and it wasn't as integrated within our culture as it is today. So Alcoa ended up finding this dentist apparently, and they ended up working together to create fluoridated toothpaste. And they, they actually did not only toothpaste, but they did experiments on cities like Grand Rapids, Michigan, that was, I think, the first city. But they started adding fluoride to the water in their city to see if they could reduce dental caries or cavities, which it worked by 60. There was a 60 reduction. But the thing is, is that if you know anything about American history around that time, they weren't as well off when it comes to the way that they run experiments, like with safety measures and things like that. Like, you know, the Triangle shirt factory, they didn't really have any safety measures and all those people died. And like there come so many mistakes that needed to happen for us to get to the point where we have so much safety involved in how we experiment and how we try new methods. But it was at a time where America wasn't really doing that. And so they, I think that they just saw this small benefit of oh, less cavities and wanted to just like give it to everybody because they just wanted to help everybody. Which I think that, you know, maybe on the Alcoa side they were helping themselves to not get sued and just like integrate it into the minds and culture of Americans. But on the other side, the dentist side, I'm sure he just had good intentions for wanting to help people's dental care. But fluoride in the water has been so normalized, it's kind of been overlooked on like the real implications of what it means to have that in your body all the time and to be ingesting that because I mean, fluoride by itself is a highly reactive compound, first of all, first and foremost. But number two, there are studies that show that like children and babies who are exposed to fluoride at young developing ages have a drop in IQ by about like 7 points. And that was the neurological issues that I was mentioning on the Jubilee episode.
- [47:38]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Yeah, I have read that as well. And I wasn't aware of like the story about Alcoa that you mentioned, you know, where it was kind of a win win for them to figure out what to do with the excess fluoride. I'll have to look into that myself. But I totally hear what you're saying. I think, you know, Brian Johnson was on the show. Actually I watched that episode. Yeah, and he did a pretty detailed post I read on X months ago when this issue was kind of going through the news because RFK Jr. Was talking about eliminating fluoride from the water. And you know, he made the case that actually it was, it made sense there was some risks associated with fluoride and it made sense to just scale back the norm and go, go back to just normal water without it. Especially since fluoride is in toothpaste and dental care is Pretty accessible to our current population, much more so now than it was at the time when they introduced it, like you were mentioning. So I totally hear what you're saying, and I think this is one of those instances where, like, I can see how Dr. Mike is trying to, like, he is on the defensive. He is so used to people distrusting the institution of doctors and. And health institutions that he's kind of trying to point out, like, hey, we're making decisions with a lot of thought. But what you're saying is this is a specific thing that maybe I really do think it's reasonable to consider just eliminating this. And if an everyday citizen can't have that conversation with a health professional and at least just hear that they are reasonable for wanting this, you know, it kind of fuels that distrust. And so I sort of saw that playing out in your exchange as, like, an example of why we're in this place we're at where, you know, maybe somebody who's a little extreme. I don't know enough about it myself, but, you know, someone like RFK Jr. Is embraced by a lot of people because they're just sort of fed up with sort of being talked down to. So I thought your exchange with Dr. Mike really put that into perspective for me.
- [49:51]
Ace
Yeah. And I didn't necessarily feel talked down to by him, but I do think that, like, maybe he. Yet, like you said, like, maybe he is coming from a perspective that he gets challenged so much and that he just thinks that the average person hates the health care system and doesn't trust doctors. It's not that I don't trust doctors. I think that a lot of doctors get into the profession because they want to help people. And I personally think that Dr. Mike wants to help. I think he has good intentions, totally. But the issue is, is that, you know, where are these doctors getting their information and who's writing the books that get taught to them in school? Right. And then not only, like, who's writing it, but who's publishing it, who's editing it, and, like, who's allowing it to happen. Because I think that, you know, it may not be the doctors and the professionals that are being insidious or malicious, but I think that there is, like, I do sense an underlying motivation or narrative to keep Americans sick. And whether that be intentional or not, that's just what's happening. I think, you know, the disease epidemic in America is just crazy compared to other countries. And there's reasons for that. And I think a lot of those reasons start with what we consume and that's why I'm so passionate about this, because if we can clean up the food and water, people suffer less from disease, they get less cancer. And the thing about that is, is that sickness makes money. Sickness, death, war, all of the bad things that humans shouldn't have to deal with all the time, it. It makes money. And since we live upon a capitalist country, there's incentives for why they would want to keep us sick and keep us down and keep us depressed. Because it feeds the pharmaceutical companies, it feeds the insurance companies. There's a lot of money to be made. And especially when companies like BlackRock have stakes in the food companies, but also the pharmaceutical companies and a bunch of other companies. It's like, our country is not run by the government. It is run by the families who own the banks.
- [51:56]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
I'm just curious, on your own personal story, has anything happened to you where it really, you felt like your bodily autonomy was kind of betrayed by, you know, foods you were eating or, you know, you mentioned the water in the gym, but has anything happened in your own personal health journey that that kind of made this passion feel kind of stronger for you?
- [52:18]
Ace
Honestly, I think it's just like I've never been through any crazy health crisis or anything like that. I have an intrinsic. An intrinsic quality for justice and freedom. And I think that's also why I'm a rebellious person in general. I think some people are just born more rebellious than they are than others. You know, our country is founded upon freedom and freedom of choice, but I think a lot of the freedom is like the illusion of freedom because of the fact that it's like, oh, you have freedom, but it's only between this and this. But in reality, I'm advocating for, like, the loophole or the third way out, like, find your own path and make your own path. And I feel like the less restrictions that we have on things or the less impositions that the government has on things, the more choice that we as individuals have to take control of our own lives.
- [53:17]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Let's say you are a person in a, you know, position of a lot of power, and it turns out if you gave people more freedom, more choice over their health, it was kind of statistically more likely that more people would be. They would eat worse, they would treat their bodies worse, but they would be. They would have more agency in that. Do you think it's better to give people freedom even to maybe their own detriment, if.
- [53:45]
Ace
Even if they are to their own detriment? That doesn't mean that they can't learn to be better or learn to take care of themselves better. And I think that's like, one of the biggest issues in this country is that nobody's teaching us to, like, what we should be eating or what kind of herbs and supplements actually, like, could help without having to outsource to a doctor for advice. And we're not taught to be independent like that since birth. We're taught to listen to authority. We're taught to be good students, be good employees. And that's really, like, what our. Our country is founded upon, because being a good employee helps the economy. And when it comes to food, like, for example, they don't have restrictions on alcohol, but alcohol causes, like, some of the most deaths in our country due to, you know, DUIs or overdoses of alcohol. There's so many reasons why alcohol is so bad for you, but yet it's legal. And for the longest time for adults, not for kids. Oh, yeah, yeah. And same with cigarettes. Cigarettes cause cancer, but they're not putting restrictions on cigarettes or anything. And I. I wouldn't say to do that either, because I think people deserve to have the freedom of choice of whatever they want to do with their bodies. And whether that means going on ayahuasca ceremonies or taking psychedelics and experiencing altered state of consciousness, or whether that means traveling where you want to and doing what you want with your own body. Like, it's freedom goes across so many landscapes. And I think that it's kind of peculiar how they allow freedom for things that don't benefit you. But then there's a lot of, like, restrictions for things that could benefit you, but they wouldn't want to allow because they want to be the benefit for the problem that they're causing as well. Like, oh, let me create an issue, and let me also be the benefit so I can profit up. Profit off of you twice.
- [55:46]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
What I'm hearing is get fluoride out of the water and legalize psychedelics.
- [55:52]
Ace
I'm not saying legalize psychedelics, but maybe.
- [55:56]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Decriminalize platform for political change. And I gotta say, it's. It doesn't sound terrible.
- [56:02]
Ace
No, because honestly, like, I've dabbled in psychedelics for sure. And you can watch a lot of people who have a lot of professionals, a lot of people with PhDs who have dabbled in psychedelics, studied them, studied altered states of consciousness. And I think the reason why, you know, this is off topic to the rfk, you know, jubilee thing, but I think the reason why psychedelics are illegal is because they make you think outside the box. They, they show you a different perspective. They, they allow you to experience life from a different lens. Like once you come into awareness of something, you can't unlearn it, you can't unsee it.
- [56:38]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Let's do a psychedelic surrounded. We'll get you in there.
- [56:41]
Ace
That would be so fun.
- [56:42]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
I could set up a call a different day for that.
- [56:45]
Ace
Yeah, that would be amazing for a long time.
- [56:47]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Well, Ace, I gotta let you go, but thank you so much for jumping back in and sharing more of your story, more of your thoughts. Keep that rebellious spirit, Ace. Thank you. Take care.
- [57:00]
Ace
All right, bye.
- [57:01]
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- [58:26]
Ace
Bye.
- [58:27]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
All right, I'm here with Jack. Jack, welcome to the Surrounded follow up and thank you for doing the original Surrounded episode. Going toe to toe, toe to toe with Dr. Mike.
- [58:38]
Jack
Thank you so very much for considering me and thinking to include me in in the post up interview. I was when I when I first learned about Tubli and what it was, I was honored that you would select me from the from the pool of guests that we had. So thank you for having me.
- [58:54]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Yeah, well of course. And correct me if I'm wrong but Dr. Mike, you guys must have connected on some level. Because he chose you. Didn't he choose you at the end to kind of come back to the center and debate one more time, or am I mistaken?
- [59:08]
Jack
He did. And, you know, people consider that to be from a whole array of reasons. Obviously, what Dr. Mike himself said was that he felt like it was just a little bit heated at the end, which is. You know, I feel like that's just the way the episodes go. We talked about conflict of interest, money, dirty money in politics, and we agreed on a lot more than I thought going into the debate, which was really, really special.
- [59:32]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
No, I. I thought it was productive as well. And, you know, this is Dr. Mike's second episode, and so I haven't spoken to him personally, but my assumption is that he felt the first time he did it, you know, there was some level of maybe trust he was building with an audience that he wanted to continue to do. And I think something I've talked about with other cast members on this episode specifically is there's just a true deficit, a true crisis of trust when it comes to the medical establishment in this country. I want to play a clip for you because you're right. I thought the exchanges you had with Dr. Mike were very respectful, but they were kind of passionate. There was a moment where some emotion came up for you, and I want to just watch that back, and then we can kind of dissect what was going on there.
- [60:20]
Dr. Mike
Do you want me to be honest and tell you why he shared it? Because at the beginning of his time in his tenure, he promised that by September we'd find the cause of autism. And because he did not find it, because we've been looking for it. We wanna help people. I wanna find the cause of autism. I'm being honest with you. I wish I could help my patients.
- [60:38]
Jack
Flip the switch really fast.
- [60:39]
Dr. Mike
No, no, but I really wanna be. I wanna show you how passionate I am. Because when Secretary Kennedy raises his voice, people see his passion, and we in healthcare don't have the same passion. So I wanna show you my passion. We wanna find it, and we haven't found it. And when he presents to you a fake link because he knows it doesn't exist, why are you not mad at him like we are mad at him? Sir, answer that question.
- [60:59]
Jack
I don't know how you can say that today, everyday Americans should be trusting research that's put out. Because there was a recent study that was done that said 70% of studies that are put out have a conflict of interest, the majority of which are for undisclosed amounts. And the average Amount that is known is $27,000 per student.
- [61:12]
Dr. Mike
So should we throw out all research?
- [61:14]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
What he's basically saying is, you know, RFK Jr. Is, is not really that different than the people that came before him. He makes a promise and then kind of puts up smoke and mirrors or does like a. A little bit of a. A performative tactic to, to seem like he's following up on his promise, but really he's sort of putting sending people down a rabbit hole. That's not entirely accurate. And that he might even know himself is not accurate. What do you think of that?
- [61:40]
Jack
I would have to say that's actually a very valuable and important criticism, criticism of the Maha movement, and that is the fact that a lot of voters in the Trump administration in general right now feel disenfranchised because they're not getting the things that they voted for. You know, one of the things is we wanted to be a lot more peaceful when it came to foreign. Foreign affairs and specifically with the Middle East. Americans didn't want war with Iran. Right. Americans wanted medical transparency. They wanted the chemicals and dyes taken out of their food, or at the very least just having warning labels on, on food items that would give them a heads up about what they were putting in their body. So they wanted transparency across the board. And what we saw is it doesn't even look like Kennedy has eliminated the red 40. So all these things are coming into account. And I think you raised a really good point just about government and specifically individuals that claim to be on the opposition to get elected, claim to be different, claim to be an outsider, essentially, because RFK Jr. And Trump ran on being the outsiders, they were going to drain the swamp. We've all heard that saying a thousand times at this point, since 2016, for the last 10 years. Right, right. And so we've reached a point where Americans are really starting to wonder, okay, who actually is in charge if we're. They're running on all these promises. And then the moment they get elected, it seems like all these things are forgotten about or government doesn't do the thing that we voted for government to do. And so there becomes questions across the board, from, you know, medical, doctors, to just everybody in the entire community is starting to wonder, well, is it the people around them? Is it the people in the cabinet? Is it advisors? What's happening? What kind of money is being pushed to where the promises and the things that we thought we were going to get because the people in the Maha movement are acting in good faith. So what's Happening to where we're not getting all the things that we were promised. And this is this. That's a great question that needs to be raised is to, okay, well, what really happened is, is Kennedy somebody that was running and he just can't get it. He can't get the things that he wanted done because government was in fact intended at the federal level to move slowly. Right. Or is it that interests came in and took over? There is also the worst assumption that we can make and conclusion that we can draw and is that he didn't really want to do these things in general. But I don't think we're, we're there. So this is a very good question to raise.
- [64:17]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Yeah, well, I get the sense and you know, RFK Jr. Is a hard guy to read, but my general read is that he has some kernel of like a truly passionate, good faith concern for the wellness of Americans and for children specifically. He talks about this a lot. And so, you know, I don't necessarily get the sense that he says he's going to do these things and he kind of pulls. He's like, actually, I changed my mind. I was never going to do them all along. I just wanted power. You know, I think there's this true question of like, these might be hard things to solve and it's just very difficult to have a health apparatus to address them while informing the public and spending tons and tons of money. But something I'm curious about from your perspective more culturally. I don't know how old you are, but you seem younger.
- [65:06]
Jack
I'm 18 years old.
- [65:07]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Yeah. So you did, you voted for the first time last election?
- [65:11]
Jack
No, I, I wasn't. No. I turned 18 in May. I didn't, I didn't even get voted in these, in the, I voted in the, this year's governor gubernatorial race in Virginia, but that was, that was the first time I voted.
- [65:25]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
So, hey, local, local elections in a lot of ways are more impactful totally. Than presidential ones. Well, wow. You're pretty politically activated. 18 year old and you're brave. When I was 18, I don't think I could have done what you did with unsurrounded. So do you consider yourself Maha maga? Where do you kind of land in.
- [65:49]
Jack
Your political identity as far as MAGA is concerned? It's so hard right now because Trump takes actions. And I will say at this point, I'm probably not a part of the MAGA movement just because of what it's become. But what it started out as is not the same as what it is today because movements evolve, right? There comes times where Trump will take actions and all of us, the base, the people that, that are. We're his demographic, where he's supposed to represent us. There's, there's many times specifically over the last year where we'll see him do something and we'll just be like, are you kidding me? It's kind of like right after, specifically when it comes to, to statements, he'll say, so as far as Mag is concerned, a lot of this stuff, a lot of the trust with my base, with, with the demographic started to be erased when, you know, July came, the summer came, and out of nowhere he just goes, well, Epstein, who, like we're still talking about Jeffrey Epstein. That moment was. It felt like a punch to the face to a lot of us. And then right after Charlie Kirk had died, he was, he goes on Fox News and they ask him about it and he goes, yeah, yeah, very sad. Anyways, the new Ballroom. And we're like, really? What we want is transparency. They want accountability. They want to understand the bigger picture of all the things that are affecting their health in negative ways. They want Big Pharma to stop having, being able to make conflict of interest payments to pay for and buy off media. They want the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation to no longer be in bed with the world Health, with, with the World Health Organization. And so they want all these things. They want transparency, they want to focus on health. They want guidelines to be changed. They want the guidelines for weight. They don't want ozempic to be given out necessarily. They want diet and exercise. They want pesticides taken out of the foods. They want all of these things which are hard to do. They really are to make these kinds of changes. Because what you're going up against is you're going up against while he, Kennedy himself has his own goals and interests, they're conflicted with all the people with more money than he has influence over Congress than he has. And the cards are essentially stacked against him in this way. So I support the overall idea of Maha. And the problem with this jubilee episode that we did, as much as I loved the experience, was that we all got pulled together as if we were unconditional RFK Jr supporters. Right? That it is Dr. Mike vs 20 RFK Jr sports. Not Maha supporters, not the overall movement.
- [68:34]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Because what the movement stands for, label.
- [68:37]
Jack
Yes, because the movement. And while Maga's movement has taken a massive hit, Maha's movement and Maga's movement are supposed to be bigger, right? Maga showed Itself to not be bigger than the image of Trump. This is what I think, because as the image of Trump has taken hits and he has done things, said things, where we all kind of go, what the heck? Then the movement itself dies out. And so Maha, I think, can totally exist outside of Kennedy, because while he is kind of the front runner, he's the forefront, he's the face of this movement because he's the guy that we have in the highest position of power right now. The idea around just transparency, health, chemicals, whatever it is, microplastics, any. Anything involved encapsulated in the subject is something that will continue after RFK Jr. He was simply the guy that came to represent us and fight for us first. And he was. He was. He's just our guy. Does that make sense?
- [69:39]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Right? No. Yeah, that makes sense.
- [69:42]
Brian Johnson
No.
- [69:42]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
This is really interesting. So kind of up until maybe the summer, mid summer, you. You were. You saw yourself as pretty like Maga Maha aligned. Or maybe those two interests seemed more aligned and maybe less and less so with some recent events and decisions by Trump. Who are the voices that represent? Because you're somebody who's young and tapped into the future, like what you're interested in, who resonates with you is the future. Who are the voices that. That you feel might be coming, you know, down the pipe that better represent you? There's Nicole. Is it Nicole Shanahan? She is.
- [70:21]
Jack
I'm not sure.
- [70:23]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
She was, I think, RFK Jr. Yes.
- [70:26]
Jack
Yes. And I remember her.
- [70:27]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Yeah, I remember she's kind of interesting, but clearly she's not the one. I'm curious who catches your attention as.
- [70:34]
Jack
Far as leading the movement for Make America Healthy again?
- [70:38]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Yeah. Or is there someone out there who embodies your values and you feel like is the best spokesperson for you, or is it. Is it still RFK Jr.
- [70:45]
Jack
If one thing seems to be a recurring theme over the last six months in our country, it feels like you just can't lean on anyone. Everybody's gonna let you down. I would say RFK Jr is the premier representative of Maha. Absolutely. As far as up and coming voices are concerned, I'm pretty sure we're probably going to see down the line a lot more dissenting voices. As far as doctors concerned, we're probably going to see doctors breaking the mold and starting to go on more unique practices. We're probably going to see individuals rise up. School boards is the big one. Everything seems to start out at the school board level. So, you know, this was the early true, the rising up against wokeness was done at the school board level, the angry parents. So I would have to say it's probably something that we're gonna see played out on the individual level with individual people making different conscious choices about their health. Hopefully they research deeper and that they just, they don't just take the ivermectin, they don't just take the hydroxychloroquine with the Z pad to cure their Covid, but they look into these things a lot deeper. Right? We, we kind of have this as Americans, right? We kind of have this thing where we cling on to an individual person for our idea of hope. And in 2016, we thought we all kind of rallied behind Trump, or half the country did, because he was our voice of hope. He was going to get us out of this. And Americans always are looking for somebody to be their hero. And I'm here to say I think everybody agrees at this point, nobody is coming to save you other than Jesus Christ. So to put your hope of a movement, to have to have somebody be the leader and the representative of a movement and put all that on an individual is going to let you down. There are going to be people that rise up, that have great opinions and voices. I just don't necessarily know if I can pinpoint who those individuals are right now, specifically concerning Maha.
- [72:51]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Well, and it sounds like faith is maybe the number one slot for you, you know, the guiding force. Have you had personal difficult experiences with your own health that drew you to Maha?
- [73:07]
Jack
Well, I'd say my entire life, I've been relatively healthy. I mean, as a kid, I was allergic to, like, every fruit under the sun, so I was allergic to amoxicillin, which is a, a drug. And then I had asthma. So I, I did have all these problems. However, it's not necessarily that I had to go through major health complications myself. But Covid's always brought up, right? We always, Everybody, everybody talks about COVID concerning Maha, because that was kind of the, the wake up moment. That was the coming to Jesus moment, where people really started waking up to ask questions about the authority and the power and the people in the government. And so what we saw during COVID was we saw a vaccine. And Trump is technically, yes, he's responsible for the vaccine. We saw regulation, which was loose, which was completely loosened, so that the rollout of the vaccine would be a lot quicker so that he could have it. Honestly, I love Trump, but he pushed forward the vaccine's release a lot quicker so that he could have it as a part of his 2020 campaign. And so, you know, he could champion that they, they were the releaser of the vaccine. And so from there we saw sudden deaths. People would take the vaccine and maybe they already had Covid with it. I'm not going to make a claim here and say this is what happened. But mysterious occurrences started happening all the time. You would hear of cases of just death. I got the COVID vaccine. And that was what they could point out. Not saying there's causation there, but what I'm saying is it led to the point where Americans were seriously concerned and they seriously wanted answers to their questions. That's kind of my personal experience is that I watch as family members, people around me, their health just declined rapidly and sharply after they got the COVID vaccine in several boosters. So, and the thing is, is at this period of time, specifically at the peak of COVID I'm talking like end of 2020, and going into 2021, we saw the rise of censorship, which is everybody's kind of aware of at this point. And so you couldn't even ask questions about these things.
- [75:16]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
You couldn't say around vaccines.
- [75:17]
Jack
Vaccines, right. And so Google, Google was doing this, YouTube was doing this. And so there were conservative creators in the sphere that were very popular. They had millions of followers at the time. And they were literally saying, we are not going to say, because we cannot, but we are not going to say that this does this. We're not going to say that Covid vaccines are causing injury. We're not going to talk about the lab leak theory, which ended up being true. So we can't talk about all these things. And then a lot of them were getting censored, banned, moving on to more uncensored, uncensored platforms. And then you saw the rise of alternative media from that. So it's just the whole system of distrust around what happened during this period of time. Because we reached a point where it's like, yeah, why would we trust you?
- [76:01]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Right.
- [76:01]
Jack
You guys completely showed, you showed yourselves to just be our overlord and nothing else. It's not a representative government with consent of the governed at that point in time. If this is what's happening.
- [76:12]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Yeah. When you were 14, 15, 16, during COVID and is that right?
- [76:19]
Jack
As soon as lockdown hit, I was 13 years old.
- [76:22]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Wow, that, that must have been a really time to experience Covid at that point in your life. I'm sorry.
- [76:30]
Jack
Well, here's the sad thing is, it's like not everybody made it out of quarantine alive. And what that Means is, yeah, people had traumatic things happen, people died of old age, whatever it is, but suicide grew. Yeah, mental health has not really gotten better.
- [76:51]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Do you feel like public trust is, there's an opportunity for it to kind of build back? Do you see a path towards trusting the medical establishment, trusting the government in the near future?
- [77:07]
Jack
So I think medical establishment trust is going to grow on a patient, physician basis. It's going to be, I don't think anybody's ever going to say, yes, I trust the pharmaceutical companies, but I think we can get to a point where somebody says, yeah, I really trust my doctor. And that's an amazing goal to have. So you should actively look for a physician because they're, they're one of the most important people in your life. It's, it should be a close and tight relationship. And so I think trust in your physician should be the number one goal right now because they're the ones that are going to make these decisions for, for, for your health. And inevitably when you're given a prescription, you take it. That's just the way we are, this is the way we're brought up. You just, the doctor prescribed you the medicine and then you take it. And trust in the government as far as that goes. It would take a lot. There's no, there's no reason right now to believe that the government is telling the truth. Especially when you're seeing people like people that were supposed to be different, right. I'm not sure if, if these men in black suits are coming into, coming into these guys offices and tapping them on the shoulder and saying, hey, this is actually how things are going to be run. But we just see this major shift. It seems like everybody goes into Washington D.C. thinking that they're just going to change the world, right? Everybody thinks that they're just going to be, they're the next George Washington, whatever it might be. Everybody thinks they're going to be a great reformer, they're going to drain the swamp and nobody does it. Everybody shows to be the same, Everybody, everything remains the same. We had a system of government that was set up so that we would consent to our own government to that we would have representation, that we would have all these liberties. But at the same time, the relationship between government was that yes, we're here, but we're not meant to be completely overreaching. We're not meant to make all these calls. We've gotten to a point where if you had George Washington, whoever Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, you know, Samuel Adams, any of these people, John Adams, they would be like, what is our country? This is not what we set up for, for you guys to live in. This is, it's, it's completely different. And how much power does the actual voter have today? So trusting government, that is, that's a phenomenal question that you asked. I'll give you props for that one. I just don't think anybody, I don't think anybody's going to have their trust restored in government. And yeah, there's things that I guess that they could do. It just would take a lot and it's not going to happen.
- [79:53]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
Well, Jack, thank you for, you know, kind of sharing your slice and POV of what's, what's happening right now. And thank you again for going toe to toe with Dr. Mike. I admire your 18 year old courage and yeah, I hope, I hope we find that path towards trust. But I hear what you're saying. This is a difficult feet and it's something that we're just gonna have to keep an eye on.
- [80:19]
Jack
Thank you. All right, God bless.
- [80:20]
Interviewer (Jubilee Host)
If you want to see more follow up episodes of Surrounded, be sure to like leave us a positive review. Comment. If you're watching the video on YouTube, you can subscribe to Tubely, Jubilee's second channel. You can also subscribe to Jubilee to see full Surrounded episodes. But however you want to support us, just thank you so much for listening. Remember, you could be wrong, so could I. Keep your mind open until next time.