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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to a new era of baseball's great spectacle. The T Mobile Home Run Derby live on Netflix. The biggest sluggers in baseball put their talents to the test on All Star Weekend. Raw power meets star power, big swagger meets bigger slams. And you don't swing to make contact. You swing to make history. Watch the T Mobile Home Run Derby live on Netflix this Monday, July 13th at 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific.
- [00:33]
B
This summer, serve up the cookout classics, Heinz ketchup and Kraft singles. Every good burger needs a layer of perfectly melty cheese and thick, rich ketchup. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz and Kraft Carleb.
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C
Welcome to the Surrounded follow up. Pleasure to have you.
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A
Hey, pleasure being here and thank you for having me. This was amazing. This is cool. This is nice technology. Let's go.
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D
Woo.
- [00:57]
C
How have you been since we recorded with Governor Westmore?
- [01:01]
A
First of all, I want to say the experience was actually something I never thought I'd be exposed to. It was really exciting to meet Governor West Moore and beyond that, to see how the team functioned, to see how every one of the contestants and arguments landed was really exciting. I've been great. I've been reflecting on it. I've become a lot more politically driven. I think this whole narrative that happened really sort of ignited something in me. I've been reading a lot of Martin Luther King. I've been reading up on Gandhi. I've been reading a lot more Malcolm, Malcolm X's work. So just trying to just like stay, stay ready. Because I think during the debate I realized a lot of things.
- [01:36]
C
Well, I want to hear that, but maybe we'll just see how you came in first. You were so high energy. And I remember every time that the director would kind of want to see who was interested in going to the center in between takes. I would always be pointing to you like, get this, get this guy in.
- [01:52]
A
Yeah, this guy up there. Yeah, bro. Like, I felt like I really did prepare hard and I feel like, to be honest with you, I feel like this topic is a top topic, that all the content about non voters is about how non voters are dumb, how they don't have any idea what they're doing and how they're against democracy and against having their voice read. And a lot of them are very angry. And I felt like this was an opportunity to sort of give the other side where it's like, I didn't want to come off dumb. That was the first thing. I also didn't want to come off uneducated. So like I was hyped up because I was like, this is, this is, this is like forward thinking stuff. This is the opportunity to sort of break a new angle on something that is for so long sort of a taboo topic non voters.
- [02:34]
C
Yeah, and I really want to dig into that because based on the exchange that you had with the governor, I got a sense that there was actually a much deeper political philosophy that you had and that you were kind of scratching at in the conversation. And if you had more time and were just alone in a room with him, we might have gotten there. So let's see if we can pull back more of those layers. But I just want to play you the clip of when you first went into the center.
- [02:56]
A
Oh, no. How are we talking? First, first, before I start anything, I need to just say one thing, brother. You really good. You're talking really amazingly and you're doing amazing today. I want you to know that what you're standing up for, what you've done so far for my people and also the people in Maryland is absolutely phenomenal. I don't want to disregard any of that work you put down. And the people that came before you would be very proud of what you've done so far.
- [03:18]
D
Thank you.
- [03:19]
A
I just want to highlight something that you said that sort of triggered me. You said a few things, but I think the biggest one is that our ancestors would be very disappointed if we chose not to vote. And I think that that's a little disingenuous because think about 1791, in August, the Haitian revolution, what happened? They literally congregated and said, we are going to burn the houses and cut every slave master's head. Think about Black Wall Street. What happened during Black Wall Street? We literally united and said, hey, look at, look at us. We could build our own system. We can make our own thing. We don't have to be part of the wicked system that is America. Because what was America founded on? Rotten soil on the heads of multi. Multiple millions of indigenous people. And I don't mean to have so much energy for you, brother.
- [04:03]
D
No, no, listen, I appreciate, but I
- [04:05]
A
also think it's also disingenuous because we recognize like the correlation between Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. There was, there's a, there's a section where they both realized that the system was too wicked for them to actually repair it. You know, unfortunately, my brother earlier came by and said, we have lobbyists, we have people. There's a 2014 study that was done by Benjamin Price and Martin Giles. They discovered that the average American actually has no direct say in public policy. What does that translate to? That literally means that every single one of these people's votes does not matter at all because the money does not flow to their pockets. But the pockets of the oligarch, that is something that we actually have to highlight. And because you are now the oligarch, you're the man in power, brother. You don't see me. And you represent also a small minority of the country. Cuz the people that actually need to be heard do not reside in Maryland. They do not reside in that, in that northeast area where everything's blue, where my vote, even if I wrote red, is going to be blue. You know, they reside in the south, they reside in Alabama, they reside in Selma. I think it's disingenuous for us not to highlight that point. And that's my, that's my speech. I'm sorry for having so much energy.
- [05:14]
D
No, look,
- [05:19]
A
I'm sorry. So that's a lot of energy. You were wrong, Carlo.
- [05:24]
C
I gotta be honest. That's why I do this though. Like, the amount of energy and tension and sort of discomfort and vulnerability. Nobody knows who you are and you're just coming in and this is a governor, you know, this is the highest ranking politician we've ever had on the show. And you are just. He is listening to you. It's such a. Interesting shift.
- [05:48]
A
Dynamic power.
- [05:49]
C
Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, I, I just want to thank you for, you know, doing what you did, because I love moments like that. But what do you think when you see it?
- [05:58]
A
I mean, honestly, first of all, I, like, I was honest. Like, I'm pretty sure you could tell just by looking at it and just looking at me, act like I really did at some point feel like it was a little disingenuous. Because what I want to credit the governor to, and I'm pretty sure you heard me say this is how well he was trained to make sure that every single statement got redirected back to Maryland. He essential the, the entire time basically, essentially was saying my focus on Maryland and everything else that's happening around me is not my focus. You know, like I only care about what's happening Maryland. This is all I need to worry about. And this is the only thing I care about. And I felt like it was, it wasn't fair because he's limiting himself. Like, I wanted to highlight how, how active he did, how much work he's done for Maryland. You know, the idea of the trust, the idea of lowering crime rates, like there's so Much that's happened in Maryland because of him and because of his work, but, like, the fact that he was so, I guess, focused on being like, hey, if you don't, everybody's going to be disappointed in you. And I'm like, hey, man, but what about. What about Missouri? What about, you know, what about North Carolina? What about South Carolina? What about. What about the black people in West Virginia? It's not honest of you to sit here and tell us that we're not doing our part when you're at the upper echelon of the park, the system, your mission is no longer just. Should be. Just to be Maryland. Like, if imagine Martin Luther King was like, I'm just going to be in Selma, Alabama, and not march for anybody else in America. And that's the only thing I care about. Like, think about of Gandhi. Gandhi's mission was even just for India. It was for all of India to the point where even Australia got freedom because of that. No, South Africa. Excuse me, South Africa. It's like, like, if you're really, truly for the people, your mission cannot stop and begin where it started.
- [07:36]
C
Even aside from maybe, like, the geographic specifics of what he was trying to draw attention to. The bigger thing that I heard in your argument, because you were, I think, reacting to a moment that had happened with a woman who had down just before you did, and she got very emotional. She was also a black woman. And Westmore, you know, said something like, you know, we have a responsibility. Think about how disappointed our ancestors would be if we didn't use our vote after everything they went through so that we could have our vote. And, you know, that was sort of like what sprung you into the center. And, you know, when you first start talking to him, you know, it is sort of about. Like, the way you're thinking about is like, look, we're two black men trying to come to terms with or figure out what to do with the history of this country. And what. What responsibility do we feel we have as individuals on how we want to steer it? And that's. Where am I interpreting that?
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A
Right.
- [08:33]
C
That's sort of where you guys are at an impasse.
- [08:38]
A
Yeah, because that's. That's why I started. Even in 1791, I was like, dude, like, for you to say that our ancestors would be disappointed in us, it's like you're disregarding the fact that our ancestors f so hard to be even repeat acknowledging this system. It's not fair for you to relegate our fight to just a vote, you know, and I wish we had more time because I really want to get down to that nitty gritty, basically be like, yo, the Haitian revolution was not a voted voting system. It was a congressional system where everybody came together and was like, yo, we cannot be under the rule of these slave masters. And even, even when I brought up black Wall street, when black Wall street was the first, was the attempt of the black people to actually be. Had their own economic, financial system. And then what happened, basically, government was like, oop, he can't have this anymore. Let's bomb you guys. You know, and these are actual things that the government has done to basically relegate not just the black man, but just the working class as a whole to the less than. Because we already know what the biggest threat of the oligarchy is. The biggest threat of the oligarchy is the shaking of a system. Like if the governor, like, for example, even he has us. And that's why. Not to even be on tangent, but that's why I ended with even saying that he's part of the oligarchy too, because now he has something to protect and defend. You know, like, it's hard for you. Yeah, you have enough, you have enough power that, that, that your word, like, if I was in jail, his word could probably get me out of jail. You know, if I got arrested, like, if something happened along the pipelines of this infrastructure, he could definitely shake the room and get me out of it.
- [10:02]
C
So, yeah, maybe he could get Donald Trump to. Pardon?
- [10:05]
A
Yeah, I mean, he knows Donald Trump.
- [10:08]
C
Yeah.
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A
You know, I've never met Donald Trump.
- [10:11]
C
They've had a bit of a Barbie. You know, there's been some barbs in their relationship. I don't know how warm that is,
- [10:16]
A
but it's a relationship nonetheless.
- [10:18]
C
Like, you know, saying he's adjacent to the highest echelon of power.
- [10:23]
A
So that's what I'm saying. It's like, it's like you probably have never shaken hands with Donald Trump. He's given Donald Trump a hug, shaking a hand, probably had a whole conversation with him.
- [10:32]
C
One day. One day we'll see. Maybe we'll get him a show. But if I'm hearing you correctly, though, like, you're. You're talking about Tulsa, you're talking about the Haitian history over there. But are you, are you basically saying, like, at a certain point there's so much violence that has been committed from the top down to maintain a certain status quo of power, that it's not worth participating, you know, civilly in the system to try and get up to power. Is that your argument? That I'm, Am I hearing that correctly?
- [11:05]
A
Essentially, to downsides to that? Yes and also no. Because I do believe that for both sides, there's an importance to it. Someone needs to be in the system, somebody to be outside the system. You got to have the slave Negro, you got to have the inside Negro. You know what I'm saying? So it's like I think, I think the world works in both hands. There's no one extreme that I really abide by. But I also do believe, because even W.E.B. dubois realized at some point that like there genuinely is no solving this system. Like it just needs an actual rehaul. Like even right now, like the people that get the biggest tax breaks of the billionaires, not to even bring it up, not to go super dark, but the people that have done the most callous, most heinous crimes against humanity are still walking free. Like, like, what do you mean? You get what I'm saying? Like, there's, there's an actual loophole in the system that the average American either does not want to acknowledge or doesn't realize is really Harper and over them. And that's the economic disparity. And that's honestly, that economic disparity is really what's powering this entire system, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
- [12:05]
C
I'm going to play the. So we sort of heard you coming in with all these ideas and then the governor respond to you. So let's kind of hear how he responds to you and then I'd love
- [12:16]
A
for you to kind of him. He's a sweetheart. I appreciate him.
- [12:19]
C
Everyone liked him. I've never been to a shoot for this show where the whole cast wanted to get their photo taken with him.
- [12:26]
A
But that's, that's because we can unpack that later. But you know, he's amazing.
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B
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- [12:48]
E
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- [13:25]
B
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- [14:02]
C
okay, so this is the governor responding to, you know, all those provocations and points that you were making at the very beginning.
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D
Do you know, at the same time that we were giving billionaires tax cuts, that we cut people off of health care.
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A
Ooh.
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D
The same time that we were giving tax cuts to people who have private jets, they cut food for our children.
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A
But that's wonderful.
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D
But I do think this is an important point.
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A
Right. Okay, I'm sorry. I'll let you land.
- [14:28]
D
No, but this is an important point because this. That happens because an election result. I disagree. That happened. That happened. That happened because the people who were sitting in these seats, they decided.
- [14:41]
A
So was it an election vote that made it so that Obama was bombing and droning everybody in the Middle East? Was that an election point? Were we not supposed to vote for Obama, the first black president, Brother. Because we knew he'd bomb Iran, Bomb everybody in the Middle East?
- [14:54]
D
Damn near. Well, first, I don't think we should be voting for anybody because of how they look, nor their background. The question is, do they have our interests in mind?
- [15:05]
A
Did Obama have our interest in mind?
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D
Well, one, I think if you look at a lot of things that happened under the. Under the Obama administration, did George Bush
- [15:11]
A
have our interests in mind? Let's make sure these elections.
- [15:15]
C
Let the governor finish.
- [15:16]
D
Yeah. No, no, no, no. But it's okay. But these elections sits in these seats. Does matter, because whether we choose to engage or not engage. Here's what's going to happen every two years, these people in Congress are up for a vote. What's going to happen every four years is you're going to have governors and you have the president up for a vote. What's going to happen every six years is you can have senators up for a vote whether we engage or don't engage. Right. These elections are going to happen.
- [15:39]
A
I agree.
- [15:39]
D
And they are going to make decisions on our behalf in our name with our money.
- [15:45]
C
What did you think of even watching that back? Yeah. What do you think?
- [15:49]
A
Like. Like, I just feel like he sort of contradicted himself because he basically says that we have to trust that the people that we're voting to power have our best interests in mind. But at the same time, it's not. We're not voting for those people direct. Like, I felt like that was like one of the tangents that kept on hitting because even the idea of like, droning, droning the Middle east. And when I brought that, I brought that up mainly because the fact that it was like, I feel like Obama was a great president, you know what I'm saying? I feel like he did an amazing job. Unfortunately, I didn't vote for him. I didn't vote for anybody. I've never voted for anybody in my entire life.
- [16:20]
C
Yeah, I mean, that's why we're here.
- [16:23]
A
Right. But at the very same time, like, for him to be the first black president, I was excited, but like, to see the amount of blood that he carried on his hands to the avail of the American people. Because at the same time, I feel like every politician is either a working for their own pockets or working for the pockets of the general population, you know, I mean, in the general population being the 1%. So I guess react hearing his reaction. First of all, I love the fact that he like, heard me out. He agreed with me. That's really why I appreciate him because it wasn't like he disregarded me, but I feel like even his call to action, which was to vote for the people out for two, two years, like every two years I have to. That's the only times I get to act in the. I had to wait two years before my vote even lands anywhere. And so, like, that was really where, like, my confusion was landing. That's where I was sort of going, ooh, I agree. But look at what happened as a result to where we landed, you know?
- [17:13]
C
Yeah. Well, I want to pull this apart because I assume there's a proposal for an alternate system that maybe you have in mind or there's A desire to see a different kind of structure in how the people's ideas and voices are represented in the form of government. Because you know, what I'm hearing from the governor, West Moore, in that section is like, look, I hear you. Our history is messed up. But what is the unit of change? Like, what are the mechanisms that create change in this system? Their elections? And what are the units as small and insignificant they may look at individually, but what are the units that add up to determining the outcome of those elections? And those units are votes. So, you know, he's saying it's not perfect, but it is the gear. It's the machinery that decides who is in power. And those people in power decide what is done with our money, so why not participate?
- [18:09]
A
And I definitely agree with that. And I hear where you're coming from, but, like, if it was a new system, I would be like, absolutely, let's give it some more chance. We've had over 80 years of the ability to vote the voters, right? Acts came out, got rebel. Got repealed recently in, like, I think 2014, you know, like, I don't think
- [18:27]
C
you mean black people, right?
- [18:29]
A
Yeah, I mean, all of us, even, like, black people included. But, like, I think the general population genuinely had the opportunity to test out the system, including and adding women and black people into that. That statement had more of a chance to experience the system, see how it laid out, see how it affected us. And I think the things that shaped the world the most did not wait two years to vote for another politician. I feel like the thing that shook the world the most was, like we talked about was the political. Was political boycotts where we. Like, for example, when Martin Luther King, when he literally stopped everybody from riding on the buses, right? That was. That shaped everything to the point where they're bombing his house. They were like, yo, you are stopping. Stopping the economy so much that this doesn't work anymore for us. Even the idea of the Black Panther Party, look at how. Look at how they revolutionized us, how they made it so that, like, kids across the nation have free breakfast and they didn't have to vote anybody in for that. They literally just went in solicitation everybody in their neighborhood to basically be like, hey, this is our goal. This is our mission. Let's make it happen. Because the real work that matters. I can't. I guess one of the biggest points that I wanted to really land with the government was I don't need him to save me. I don't think he needs to save my sister, my mother, because Irregardless of who's going to be in office. I have a duty to my people and the people around me to protect and serve them. You feel me? That's just my natural human inclination. And I wish a lot more of us like lean towards that. Because after the pandemic, I feel like during the pandemic we all were unified. We had the Black Lives Matter moment, the essential workers moments. We were all praising the doctors, the nurses that were fighting for us. And like it really felt like everybody was together under one thing. But post, post that what happened was I felt like we got more separated, we got more socially distanced. We've looked at each other a lot less. So I think the real work that we as people, the real change to the system is that we have to go back to knowing our neighbors names, to going back to smiling at the people in the elevator, not acting like they're not next to us. We have to go against our own inclination that is to protect, protect ourselves. Because America is say, the safest it's ever been technically. You know, we have to go beyond those and really just reach out to each other and not look for a savior in office to basically make a law that says we could, you could gay, you could marry gay. You know, I mean, I don't need someone to tell my sister that she could be gay in America. I want her to just be able to be gay. I don't need someone to say that.
- [20:47]
C
But I. Yeah, but to, to push back the other way though, aren't both things true? There are these soft skills that society needs to have. And that's what I hear you kind of referring to is like know your neighbor's name, walk their dog if they need help, you know, like have a relationship with your community and that matters. And when we normalize a culture around those soft skills, we have a more human and you know, empathetic world. And I get that and I totally agree with that. But I also see, you know, on the other side of things, you know, you're saying I want my sister to be allowed to be gay. But like there are real movements in the United States now that have been discussed on this show. And in surrounded, there are people who want to overturn the Supreme Court decision that the Marriage Equality Act. So and that does come down to a judge's opinion that is part of a vote within the Supreme Court and what the majority decision is. And that judge is appointed by a president who is elected, you know, by the electoral, the outcome of the electoral College. And So there's. While every strata of that can be criticized, like, is the Supreme Court the right amount of judges? Is it the best system? Is the Electoral College the best system? Does that give some people's votes more say than others in an unfair way? All of those criticisms, I think are valid, but I want to push you on just the why advocate for not participating in the system? Because all of those are built on top of the platform of, of the aggregate of votes. You know, like, what is the majority opinion of the people? That all comes down to individual votes. There are instances where those votes don't matter as much. Like if you live in California and you're a Republican, I mean, good luck changing things. Good luck changing things one day maybe. But like, as far as we can tell, that state's blue and that's going to contribute X amount of electoral votes to the blue candidate every four years. There are counties and there are swing states where, like, it does come down to 100,000, sometimes tens of thousands of votes that determine the outcome of that county, and then that all adds up into the final tally. And so, like, you just never know where in the country it's going to be where those votes are super crucial. You can have a hunch, but you never know. Exactly.
- [23:05]
A
I guess to respond to that, because I think you made some valid points. It's like, I think the biggest thing that we both have to accept is the idea that nobody. That the system is very creative. You know, like, it's the whole lineage of power, the separation of state and religion and whatnot. Like, it's been. Someone had to come sit down or a group of people had to sit down and really create the system from the ground up. So to recreate a system like that, you have to be of utmost intelligence, creativity, and you have to be really well respected. And sort of highlighting the person do that. That's going to be a very tough thing in today's day and age. Because I think I talked about there's a lot of electoral captures that happens, which is the idea that, like, there's actual CIA initiatives to really disenfranch and separate people. Like, for example, we talked about the beauty of the Black Lives Matter, but what happened to the Black Lives Matter? It got picked up by corporations and people and it got repackaged as something that was a lot less volatile and a lot safer for the system. Right. Because for the safety of every American, for the safety of the. Of the system, if the system collapses, where are we going to get our food? We're Going to get our water, what happens? Right. And I think a lot of issues that change don't necessarily change because yes, they get voted out of office, they get voted into office, but it goes down to the root of it. The moment something really does need to change, it's not gonna be a vote, it's gonna be an actual riot. It's gonna be an actual shaking of the oligarchy. Think about what happened in France. What happens in France all the time? They don't wait to vote, you know. Well, I guess like the moment that the problems become too much to bear is when it pops and diffuses. Like it's like when the scale, the scale has to rebalance eventually, you know, and then what happens? You get what. I mean, what does the system do when it rebalances? It goes and makes the legislature to make it make sense again, you know, I mean, like I, I guess, but
- [24:50]
C
isn't the whole platform of democracy too, like, I mean, you brought up the point like back in the day, really well respected. I mean slave holders came together and they were like, let's create an awesome operating system for government. That's not monarchy, you know. And up until that time, monarchy just made the most sense because you have to have centralized power, technology didn't exist in a way to have a scaled government. I mean you could have a, maybe like a collective style government with like a hundred people. But once you're talking about thousands or millions of people, monarchy was the only way to do it. And then, you know, there were a lot of technological breakthroughs and philosophical ideas floating around and the Constitutional Convention happened and they came up with this idea of democracy and that's like the platform that we stand upon now.
- [25:45]
A
And well, it's not perfect not to cut you off. Yeah, you know, go for it. I think to even call it a democracy is somewhat dis. It's just, it's just not real. We don't really live in a democracy. You know, like when politicians, I mean, yeah, like if you have enough money, you could really shake America to its core. Look at.
- [26:08]
C
Well, yeah, Musk, we know that.
- [26:11]
A
That's what I'm saying. So like it's, it's not fair for us to sit here and continue living in the, in the ideology that is the matrix, that this is a democracy. We don't actually have any say in any public policy. Which was one of the biggest points I made because in that 2014 Princeton peer reviewed piece came out, they literally realized that if you don't have the economic pull, you're not shaking anything in America. And that's, that's the truth. That's the reason why we have such an issue with billionaires, like to have anybody have a billion dollars. They, they had this idea of trickle down economics, like, really does come down to money. Like not, not even the idea of policy, not even the idea of like race, ethnicity, culture, religion. None of that matters. In the 2026 iteration of America, if you have enough money, you could have an island. Put whomever on that island, have them go across the world and get away Scotch free, you know, have, have be told, have your wife live wonderful life. You know, I'm saying you, you go, go wherever you go. You get what I'm trying to insinuate at.
- [27:11]
C
No, no, I, I totally see what you. I guess where do you get to the point though, that because that inequity exists, therefore it's kind of bunk to participate in the system altogether? Because I still feel like power is determined to a large degree by the outcome of elections, which is what the governor kept arguing is he's like, yes, there's corruption. I mean, what's going on with Donald Trump right now? And the accusations of personal enrichment are real and staggering, which is, and it's hard. He's president because of an election. He's a president because of the election system. And so like, you have to hold two things in one in each hand. It's unfair, but it's what we're, it's, it's the platform with which we.
- [27:55]
A
That's a problem. I don't think it's unfair. I think it's just evil. You know, it's like, like, this is
- [28:02]
C
where I want to play this clip because this is how your exchange ended. And I know. This is why I think you had a deeper, there's a deeper philosophy you have that I want to hear more.
- [28:12]
A
Really unpack.
- [28:13]
C
Yes. So this is when you guys are out of time. I had to cut you off. I think I had to actually escort
- [28:17]
A
you back to your. And that's real.
- [28:20]
C
I'm sorry. We got, we, we got the flags up, so we got to pause there.
- [28:23]
D
Oh, bro. But, but, and I guess, and I guess and, and, and, and, and I know, I know the rules because I
- [28:28]
A
got some initiatives I'm trying to work on myself. Fred Han's a big deal, brother.
- [28:31]
D
Fred Hampton's a very big deal. I, I, I. Fred Hampton is a very.
- [28:34]
A
I really appreciate the fact that you started off by saying that you were making. Thanks. Oh, my goodness, man. Yo, I will I will. And listen and listen.
- [28:43]
D
And I'll say. And I'll say one thing, too. And I know this is probably against the rules, but my. My ask to you back is for everything you mentioned.
- [28:52]
C
Yeah.
- [28:52]
D
Would it be better if we chose to disengage? Is that how we change?
- [28:56]
A
Well, Fred Hampton disengaged, brother. So did Malcolm X. Arguably, he didn't, because he had electoral promotions 100%.
- [29:04]
D
And I would talk to you about that.
- [29:05]
A
And I would talk to you about that. And I would talk to you about
- [29:07]
D
that, and I would talk to you about. Because.
- [29:11]
A
Because I would actually push you on that.
- [29:14]
D
On Fred Hampton, though.
- [29:15]
A
But we should talk.
- [29:15]
C
Okay. This is good stuff.
- [29:20]
A
Like, he's amazing. He's bro. Because we. Because we were at that point, we were just rapping like it was. We were just both in a flow state of, like. Because I think the best thing about the conversation with the governor was it was that it wasn't really. Because I know it's supposed to be debate. It's supposed to be. I have my viewpoint. You have your viewpoint, but it was mutually respectful. You know, I really appreciate his energy. I really appreciate. Because you could tell we were both trying to understand what the other person was saying. And I think conversations like that really do push something forward. You know what I'm saying? Like, if it lands somewhere in the world and makes something think. Because, like, I always say this. If I'm not the fire, let me be the spark. If I'm not the spark, let me be the light. If I'm not the light, let me be the breath. You know, the idea is to just be some type of catalyst, some type of proponent to change.
- [30:05]
C
I feel that. I mean, I think that comes across in. In the footage it came across on set, everybody was energized by that interaction. You know, I see Jubilee content as a whole, it's more about human interactions than it is about, like, debating. But you're right, the show is presented as a debate show. That's sort of its genre. But what's interesting there, I mean, you were. You were bringing up Fred Hampton. He's like, oh, I wish we had more time to talk about Fred Hampton. I mean, what you're talking about. So Fred Hampton, for listener who doesn't know, he was the head of the, you know, Illinois chapter of the Black Panther Party. He was assassinated by the FBI, Right? Assassinated, drugged, and. Which I think is important, but he was a. He was a socialist. He. He was promoting socialist ideas. He's given some really iconic speeches about It. There's great footage of him on YouTube. We might even watch a clip if we have a sec.
- [30:57]
A
Shout out to Fred Hansen. I appreciate him.
- [30:59]
C
Did you see the movie? I didn't see the movie about him, but I know a movie came out like it a couple of years ago about him.
- [31:04]
A
It was the Black Messiah. I did see it. I'm pretty sure I did see it. Yeah, it was really good. It was good. But again, it's like, it's like I said, it's like a diluted version of whom. What he stood for and who he was, which is, I think, well, which is why his.
- [31:20]
C
Would he want his legacy turned into, you know, like a movie that's serving shareholders of a movie studio? Probably not.
- [31:29]
A
Sort of, sort of relying on this idea of not like, I wish they really got into more of like, the chaotic ideals that he had, because he really was looking to sort of. I want to say he was going down the black Wall street path like a, like, heavily, where it's like, we don't need the government to give us permission to fund our schools, to educate our kids, to even feed our kids. We should be able to do that ourselves. And he said the only way to really change, or you change the mindset of anybody coming down the line is by literally starting off with the simplest thing, which is making sure they're fed. Because if I'm hungry, if my basic need for nourishment is not being met, there's no conversation we could have. Which is why, again, like, all this is like, again, like, I, I don't want to not even walk over it, but, like, we're all in a very privileged position. The fact I get to talk to the governor, talk about the inequalities, talk about all this is very privileged. And it's one of those things that, like, I wear heavily and I don't not acknowledge totally.
- [32:26]
C
And I, I mean, I think it's so cool that you, you know, the way you hold this experience and, and honor it and, and value it, I think is. Is great. And it's, it's wonderful to hear that. I mean, even if we think about what you were saying, you know, Hampton's advocating for programs that would feed the community. I mean, he was kind of promoting this, like, full stack philosophy. We should look after our communities on a ground level, and then we should accumulate political power that represents the people. And so I heard you kind of refer to the proletariat once in the, once or twice in the debate. Are you, do you, do you identify As a socialist, is that part of why you're reluctant to participate in this form of government we have now?
- [33:13]
A
I'm pretty sure you could probably see I have a whole bookshelf behind me of random books. Like, I have one about Islam and anarchism. I have one about women in power. Like, I think my problem and not to be fringe and to also protect myself, is that I'm like a libertarian, anarchist slash socialist. So I believe the government should have no say. It's a whole lot of hats because it's something that I've been trying to understand. Like, I don't feel like anybody should tell you how to live, how to eat, what to do, what to drink. But as long as it doesn't affect anybody else, essentially is the root of everything I believe in. I also believe that the congregation of power leads to exploitation of power, which is what we see. And I also believe that because of the exploitation of power, the few people in power sort of are become untouchable because they're exploiting the power. And so I guess that's, that's how I wear my anarchism mind, because I believe that we have to destroy it all and let the best prevail. I guess beyond that, but I guess
- [34:19]
C
does the outcome of that not just eventually turn into a similar version of what we have now or a worse version? Because let's say we do have a people's revolution. Maybe it's violent, like you're saying, like at a certain point. And I mean, I think that's something we should talk about seriously in the US is like, billionaires are really not liked. These building of data centers is really not liked. Like, and we're seeing real discussion around violently revolting against that. So this is not even that hypothetical. We are approaching a point where the political violence becomes more and more of a contemplated outcome.
- [34:55]
A
And why is that? And that, that is, that is whether
- [34:59]
C
or not it's true. It's, it's the perception of wild inequality.
- [35:05]
A
But like, I think you're absolutely landing in the right territory. Because think about this, this Iran war, you know, think about the Gulf. Think about, think about how everybody's been reacting these last few years. We're overloaded, we're tired, and I think at some point something breaks. We're hearing more stories of warehouses going up in flames. We're hearing more stories of fires. We're hearing more stories of just things that just are not normal and we're acting like they are normal. I think what you're, what you're Surmising is that there's a boiling point that we're quickly reaching towards. And the reason why we're reaching that boiling point is because the current state system that we live in does not need to have me working 80 hours a week to survive. It just does not.
- [35:49]
C
Yeah, but, and I mean, it might want to replace you with a robot.
- [35:53]
A
We don't know exactly. But like, if it.
- [35:56]
C
Yeah, and I think that's a real concern. But I guess what I'm saying though, I guess my, my question though is like, because you're saying tear it all down, like, that's the anarchist kind of philosophies. Tear it all down. Let something new kind of prevail on the other side. I just wonder what that something new is because like, let's say the United States does have some sort of socialist revolution that tears down its power structures, its military industrial complex. Other military industrial complexes in the world will rush in to fill that vacuum. Whether that's China, whether that's Russia. And then, I mean, the question is, does their system slowly kind of, of is that something we migrate to on the small scale? I understand the philosophy of being so frustrated by the unfairness and the, and the legacy of horrifying stories that just are spotted across all of human American history at the same time. If America were to kind of dissolve overnight, those horrors I don't think would necessarily go away. I think they would just, they would exist under a different figurehead. And that's where I wonder, what's the outcome of that philosophy that you want to see?
- [37:05]
A
Personally, for me, my, my outcome is very green. I, I want us all to have free health care, which is something that we could reach. You know, you talked about the military industry industrial complex and the system that is the military and how big of a military we have. We can afford $100 billion plus we could afford to eradicate hunger across the Americas if we really want to. That cost, I think last time I checked it was $3 billion to eradicate hunger cross, I'm pretty sure the whole globe, $3 billion. I think when it comes down to even that, that vacuum that you even indicated, like Russia, China, like, what's going to fill in that vacuum? What is the fear? I think the beauty is that I think what we're living through right now, as bad as it feels, is pretty bad. I think it's only going to continue getting worse. But I don't think we're at the worst stage of it yet because I feel like the end is going to be the same amount of chaos if we eradicate it tomorrow as it is going to be in the next five years, you know, once the dollar bill collapses, once we've realized that the stock market is propagating and not real and not a good indicator of the economy, like, once. All these structures that keep on giving us that illusion of safety, because as an American, we are gifted. It's what I go back to before. Like, I'm privileged enough to have never felt war on my soils beyond the war on drugs, the war on crime, and the war on my health. You know what I'm saying? And by health, I mean the food industrial complex, the big pharma, like, all that. That, like, I've never gotten to experience a bomb land 20ft away from me, you know, which I'm so privileged for. I got to. I got to live through the bomb Boston bombing without a scratch on my body. So, like, that. That is something that we as Americans cannot overlook, cannot forget. So I guess, like, we genuinely, at some point, are going to experience it. We're gonna. We're gonna be exposed to it. And I feel like what comes afterwards doesn't have to be something that we're necessarily scared of, because I think even to your point, like, people were afraid when we abolished slavery. Slavery, like, all the. All the black people are gonna revolt, kill all the white people. Look at us. Every black person was like, hey, I just want my three mules in an acre of land. And then what happened after that? You know what I'm saying?
- [39:10]
C
Yeah. And I mean, everything that happened after the abolishing of slavery was very complicated. And. And the legacy of it is obvious today. I mean, you can. There's all these maps you can look at.
- [39:24]
A
But, like, I think historically, every. Anytime something good or bad in history, something dramatic always happens to rebalance it, you know, like.
- [39:32]
C
Like, I. I guess so.
- [39:34]
A
You get what I'm getting.
- [39:36]
C
The thing I want to push back on, though, is I have a hard time. What is the line between kind of nihilism, like, almost fatalism or a nihilism in your political philosophy and I don't know, like a socialist political philosophy, because to some degree, I think I hear you saying, like, we should have something that more represents the people, like the collective people's will. But then I also hear you, especially in this conversation, same. But, like, we shouldn't be afraid. Like, whatever has to happen after it all burns down will have to happen. That's kind of what it. It is. What it is.
- [40:09]
A
It's inevitable.
- [40:10]
C
Like, isn't that nihilism.
- [40:13]
A
I mean, what would be the opposite of that? Like, how, how do we fix this? How would you go about fixing the system that was founded on the governor? You know, like, like it can't be. I get what you, I get what he's saying because it can't be a vote. Like, like fixing the system is not going to be just a vote because I feel like again, that's like 10% of the work. Like it goes down to what we were talking about earlier. And that's, that's where my idealism comes in because I do believe that humans, human to humans, we love each other. You know, I met you, I had a chance to meet you in person one time after that time, like, yo, bro, that brother's cool as hell. You know, saying, I mean, I feel
- [40:50]
C
the same way about you.
- [40:51]
A
Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, and that's, that's what everybody in that room. I felt that way. Like, I feel like naturally as humans, we're inclined to just love each other. And I know maybe, maybe that, that, that comes off nihilistic because of the fact I do believe that this system will fall, the American empire will be anew in whatever form that is.
- [41:11]
C
Okay, so I, I disagree with you because I think, I think this is fun. Let me know if it stops because
- [41:19]
A
no, no, no, I appreciate you. This is love. Like, like it's, it's the reason why I made that face because I'm genuinely interested because I, I, I'm also working towards just bettering myself as a human. So like whatever information you give me to make myself better and whatever points maybe I fell apart on, maybe we're frag too fragmented. I believe I trust you and I feel like you're looking for my best interest, so I'd love to hear what you have to say.
- [41:40]
C
I'm following the sentiment of a lot of the ideas and thoughts that you're, you're throwing out. But I think I disagree with, you know, like that idea that the mean that humans return to is love. Like, that's sort of the baseline that we return to if we get things like the military and bombs and war out of the way like, or capitalism and exploitation. Like, if those things were to be less a part of the equation, humans would kind of gravitate towards this baseline of love. I think history actually might prove otherwise, which is that humans have, for whatever reason, we are systems creators and we, over our short relative to the earth, our short history, have gradually built a system that improves the average, well Being of the individual and the alternative, like, you don't have to rewind that far. Even just a century was like insane warfare, insane famines, concentration of power that resulted in disastrous outcomes where tens of millions of people died as a result of decisions made by three or four people. I mean, the horrors we face now, like, let's think about what happened in Iran and all those schoolgirls were killed on the very first day of bombings. I mean, that's a terrible, terrible thing. I think occurrences like that were even more frequent in history. And so that's where I, I push back on that idea of kind of like, if we let the system burn down and accept what replaces it, how can we be so sure that what replaces it isn't actually going to be far, far worse?
- [43:11]
A
I mean, I guess, I guess your question sort of lands on this idea of how do we know that the evil we're eradicating isn't making room for evil that is even worse than the evil, evil we've eradicated, essentially. Right.
- [43:22]
C
Well, it's just like, how can we make sure we don't throw the baby out with the bath water? Is democracy the most perfect, imperfect system we have? And is it actually, has it actually improved the average life of our citizens far more than any system that predates it?
- [43:40]
A
I, again, fundamentally, I don't believe we live in a democracy like that or.
- [43:45]
C
Yeah, and we're potato, potato, whatever you
- [43:47]
A
want to call it, you know, whatever. I mean, I do. Do I believe the average American lives a better life? The majority of the world? Absolutely. We get, we make way more money than anybody else out there. Essentially. The American dollar is very strong. The American dollar is also like the, the world's like basic currency. You know, you go to any country, you use a dollar bill, the dollar bill gonna work, right? So I definitely, definitely could see where you're coming from. But I guess, like, I mean, I guess one of the questions that I have to ask myself when even answering this question is because I'm comfortable in this system, does that mean that my, my brothers in Cuba that are uncomfortable deserve to be exploited because of me? It's like, where does my line of exploitation end? And unfortunately, because I am an American, I wear the American flag, I wear, I wear the American colors, you know, and I've had the ability to grow up Haitian culturally, right? Like, I've gotten exposed to what it looks like when a country isn't given the ability to found themselves in that. So, like, I've had the ability to see both, both structures So I guess that's a really hard question to answer because on the one hand, I'm happy with life. I'm happy in general life. I'm lucky. I have water, I have food, I have shelter. On the other hand, I also recognize that my brothers don't always have water, don't always have food, don't always have shelter. So it goes back down to what we were talking about, even at the very beginning of this. Just because I'm living in America, right. Or in what I was saying earlier, just because we're, we have, we've done good work in Maryland. Does that mean that Cuba or we had to ignore. But we had to ignore Cuba and Iran, like, is the mission just to focus on America, make sure America is the best, you know, make sure America the greatest on top. And I think that's. That's where historically the, the line always has divided because I feel like there's always been a group of people that have been trying to make sure their ideologies are presented and control, control, I guess the general masses. For example, Christianity, Christianity, the Crusaders, the Crusades, you would have the colonization of the Arabs, you know what I'm saying? Like, all that, all this and that, just to make sure that their message gets beyond them. Right. I feel like we're always trying to grow that. But, like, I know how to answer it, because that's a good question. I feel like a lot of people are just genuinely, at least in this current stage of who I've been talking to, even talking to, you are just looking to live the life that they live and not have to have a shake and shift too much.
- [46:11]
C
Right.
- [46:11]
A
And that's the fear for a lot of people because for revolution to actually happen, it's not going to be pretty. It's not going to be soft, soft. It's not going to be good for your brother to. For your brother in, I don't know, keep on saying Huber. But for our brothers in Haiti to actually survive and live, like, maybe I might have to give up some comfort. Maybe I'll have to take a couple bombings near my house. Hopefully I don't lose anybody. But if it makes the world a better place, like, shoot, Martin Luther King let his house get bombed and didn't fight back. I don't think he's better than me, you know, so maybe, maybe.
- [46:44]
C
But why, I guess why can't the better fortune of, you know, people in Haiti be the result of more benevolent and responsible foreign policy by the U.S. government? I mean, we've just Seen like the cratering.
- [46:56]
A
You're the reason why they're like this.
- [46:58]
C
No, and I, and I get, and I get that the, we can't deny the influence that the US Wields as, as the global superpower. And so yes, the US has the ability to destroy a nation, a fledgling nation prospects, but it also has the ability to help and assist growing nations. Like, we've seen both of those be true.
- [47:23]
A
Where have we seen that happen in terms of like, some. The US Helping another nation, like, grow and succeed?
- [47:29]
C
Well, I mean, if we, this is what Trump is, is sort of pushing back at. But I mean, the US offered very favorable trade at the end of the 20th century and up until now, before kind of liberation day, the world, I mean, every, almost any country you can imagine. And I mean, we, obviously, we would sanction countries that we didn't approve of their politics or X, Y and Z. But I mean, the US has been an economic. I mean, we're the global currency. I mean, we're sort of the axis with which global globalization has rotated around.
- [48:03]
A
And I think with that power, we have done a vast amount of evil.
- [48:07]
C
But how do we know that it's just evil? How do we know. Know. I'm not saying that the evil hasn't happened, but how do we, do you
- [48:14]
A
believe in forced vaccinations of people, of Africans?
- [48:17]
C
Well, but let's look at the outcome of, of vaccines being available, like the eradication of polio or, you know, I
- [48:25]
A
mean, I'm not arguing that, but like, my argument is more so along the lines of forced vaccinations. You know, like, like the idea of, like, like the lacking of human autonomy. Do we believe in human trafficking? Even the war on drugs? Like, like the way, the way the war on drugs has like, switched sort of creating a con, a system of, of like drug exploitation, created avenues for human trafficking, you know, I mean, which is again, the roots of the entire world. Like, I feel like obviously some good has had. Had to happen from America being in power. You know, like we, we have running water. But I don't feel like American interest has ever been in making the world a better place. So that's, that's where my, that's where we, we, we, we sort of decipher. Because I feel like again, what if
- [49:04]
C
we even think about this is an argument I hear a lot of. So slave trading existed for all of human history. Like, if we look in the past, not just in the United States, and then obviously maybe the most horrifying kind of industrialization of Slavery occurred in the American south at the advent of the United States history. But the United States did outlaw slavery and abolish it and offer voting rights to those who were enslaved and their descendants. And so this is what I'm saying is like the United States.
- [49:36]
A
What was that in us?
- [49:38]
C
No, no, no. But I'm not saying. But I'm saying that that general direction.
- [49:42]
A
Because.
- [49:42]
C
Is not a positive development, is it not? And if we were to burn it down, how can we be so sure that something as awful as slavery would not return to, you know, the, The. The soup of. Of human behavior if this. The power structure of the United States were removed? Removed?
- [50:02]
A
Like, that's.
- [50:03]
C
That's where I'm kind of curious.
- [50:04]
A
That's real. And I think that's. That's a genuine question. Well, I First, first of all, in the slavery topics, I feel like America was the first place where chattel slavery really organized itself. The. The actual dismembering of a human being to its actual bones, blood cells and teeth. Like, there's still pieces from like the 1890s, 1800s, where you have chairs with actual Negro herring implanted in it. Like, I feel like the atrocity that is slavery, yes, it's happened throughout history, but the slavery that we experience in the Americas, in Hispaniola and beyond is not that of those our ancestors. It's not the slave of the Egyptians. It's not like the indentured servitude that the Europeans were so used to experiencing, or even the Slavics. You know, this is like people literally taking your scalp, dismembering it, and using your skin as leather, using your nails as. As. As tools, and using bones to sharpen. So, like, I think. I think if I create that system, and then after a while I go, you know what? I no longer think the system works best for us economically. Let me abolish it. Because again, it was an economic thing that made us. That slavery even got abolished.
- [51:07]
C
The North, I actually have not heard that argument.
- [51:10]
A
Yeah, so. So it's. I'm pretty sure you could cue me if I'm wrong, but, like, I'm pretty sure it was a matter of like, the north versus the South. The north was like, okay, we. We're got. The south is.
- [51:20]
B
Is.
- [51:20]
A
I'm probably obscured in that, but I'm pretty sure the root of it was economics. I could probably. I could definitely find my sources again, but all of it, really, I'm under
- [51:27]
C
the impression that it was actually. I'm under the impression it was actually economically devastating to the south, which had an amazingly thriving economy because of the obvious advantages of slavery. But I'm. I mean, I. There was resistance to abolition in the north because. Because of they people knew and understood how disruptive that could be to the economics of. Of the United States. It was not a popular idea. And Lincoln did not have much political support to even, you know, suggest abolishing slavery during the Civil War. It was something that. That sort of developed and that he spearheaded, you know, very, very uniquely. And, and I just don't understand how it could have been economically beneficial to the United States.
- [52:17]
A
I mean, I don't think it was necessarily economically beneficial to the United States as a whole, because it definitely hurt the South. Like, I agree with you. I do remember when. I think that was like part of the reason why the south seceded from the North. At some point we went, we had the whole Civil War. I'm pretty sure because of the abolishment of slavery. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I definitely. I could get you my sources again or I could get you more of that lineage or that the reason why I even sparked like that. I don't believe that America wanted to get rid of slavery at all. You know, and I feel like the reason why.
- [52:43]
C
I'm not disagreeing with you there.
- [52:45]
A
And I feel like people were dragging
- [52:48]
C
their feet as much as they could.
- [52:49]
A
Yeah. And they still are three fifths of a man, the whole ideology. But I guess like, in terms of when it came down to slavery as a whole, like, I do do believe that if I am the creator of slavery, if I'm the one that basically was like, hey, you could be a slave. You're less than you're this. Creating this hierarchy. Because again, America was found founded on the black backs as black slaves and indigenous Americans. I feel like that in of itself is literally the reason why. You could literally be like, all right, cool, we're good, wipe it off then. I'm the savior now, you know? So like, I don't believe it was just Lincoln himself that was like, oh shoot, let's just abolish this now. Because again, like, America doesn't do things if it's not to the availment of America. You know? Like, I don't believe that they. They were like, oh, we love our black people now. Now let's. Let's go and abolish slavery and make the world a better place. Like, that's.
- [53:39]
C
I don't think it ever was. I don't think it was ever as messiah like as that. And I Agree with you. I think there's a lot of mythos we inject here. Let me play this clip. So let me play this clip. No, no, no. So you. You brought up Obama when you were talking with. With the governor, and you're like, look, I was thrilled that Obama was the first black president. And you just told me as we've been talking today, like, this was an amazing thing. But the dude has also some. Some negative aspects to his legacy. If we talk about the bailing out of the banks and in the financial crisis and the legacy of that today, or if we think about some of the military, you know, aspects of drones and involvement in the Middle east, lots of people are critical of him there. But listen to sort of. This was a clip I saw of him today, and I thought we might want to react to it.
- [54:29]
F
And I think sometimes we get confused in thinking that these two stories are. Completely separate. They're intertwined, which is why it's possible for me to be a great admirer of George Washington and also acknowledge he was a slaveholder. And that does not negate his greatness. It simply acknowledges that there is a profound, deep flaw in these founding fathers who were also geniuses and gave us these tools, which is true of all of us. Right? It's true of every president that we're this mixed bag. We got contradictions, contradictions. And embody the country's contradictions. And. And.
- [55:26]
A
And that's real.
- [55:28]
C
So this idea, you know, we were. We've inherited this mixed bag. We can't deny the horrors of our history. We shouldn't. But to, like I was saying earlier, throw the baby out with the bath water, that doesn't guarantee a better future. And it almost runs the risk of permitting a worse one. That, that. That's something I really struggle with when I hear kind of like the most radical political philosophies come up in debates.
- [56:00]
A
I want to. I want to give him some grace, honestly, because even in this, like, it's really nice and refreshing to see Obama sort of be that vulnerable because it is a lot of weight to take up all the contradictions, the blood, the pain and the transgressions of America and wearing on your shoulders as oppressors president, because no matter what happens, you're the one responsible for a nation of over a billion people. And so, like, I think. I think he deserves a lot of grace. I think even in terms of, like, who George Washington was, like, carrying that flag, carrying it all, like, again, the story of the beginning, the founding of America, all this is Beautiful. You know, like, I completely lean on that. Where I really feel for him is because there's no way to be a good leader in this current, in the way the world is founded right now, at least in the way America is without harming the others. And that's only the only reason why I say that's because historically that's just how we as America have moved. We've always made up a war to go and get some oil, to go and get some resources, because it's either my people don't have food or your people don't have food. Who you picking? You know what I'm saying? Like, the problem with me is that I already know that I might not be developed enough to make that hard line decision to go and say, hey, we have to go and bomb Hiroshima to set to tell the world that we're the strongest in the world and that we'll go that far. You know, could I, like, if it
- [57:23]
C
was up to you, if, if Obama could be in the White House right now, let's like ignore like term limits and all that. If you could snap your fingers and have Obama in the White House right now or keep Trump there, what would you prefer?
- [57:35]
A
I, I wouldn't necessarily prefer anything. Like that's the problem. Like, I, I don't think he did a bad job as a president, didn't. I think he did everything he could that he thought he could do. Because someone has to push the button, you know, and if you're not going to push a button, something bad's gonna happen is the myth that we've been told, you know, someone had to go after 9, 11 and be like, hey, we're gonna go to war. And someone had to greenlight that. And someone had to say, no, this is not a good idea. This is a good idea. There had to be a debate. So I don't put all the onus on him. I don't feel like it's fair for me to put all the onus on any, any sitting person in power. Like if, if something happens between us, you know, I mean, I don't think it's on, it's necessarily just on you. I feel like there's a whole team of jubilee behind you, you feel me? So, like, that's why the grace has to be given. So I don't think it would make any necessarily difference for me because I personally do not believe that the agenda of America in its current state is for the avail of me or the pro.
- [58:31]
C
And you don't think it ever could Be.
- [58:32]
A
I think it's had enough time to prove that it could, could be, you know, at some point after the 400 years of slavery, after, after, after, after eliminating our revolutionaries, Kennedy, you know what I'm saying? Like, like after eliminating these people that do want to make America a better place. America sort of has told you what its agenda is, which is to centralize power source that nobody really could put a face or finger on.
- [58:56]
C
Okay, so we, I know we gotta wrap up. We've gone a little long and it's been, it's been really great discussion to talk to.
- [59:03]
A
That's. That's what it is. And like, I think like I definitely want to read more on the abolishment of slavery after this. I think, I think that's something that I definitely need to touch up because it was very loosely that I read that a few months ago about.
- [59:18]
C
Of all the things we've discussed, I think the thing that I. My mind hovers around the most is like how can we just be sure that, that it's worth giving up on or that it's, it's right to give up on it. But the question, the question I have this is this would be like the last thing I want to hear you push. So, so Westmore, I mean we, we shared oxygen with the governor. We were all in the same room.
- [59:43]
A
Some good air. He has some good L. Okay, so
- [59:45]
C
you, you like the governor. I liked the governor. We. I don't know if we. You got our. Your picture taken with him. But I got a photo with him.
- [59:52]
A
I mean I did. I did.
- [59:53]
C
He's an impost it. So Wes, he's going to run for president. I mean, I don't know for sure, but there's a good chance, a not small likelihood that you and I will be present with the possibility or the opportunity to vote for him to become the President of the United States. As imperfect of a position and imperfect of a system that that might be, we got a glimpse into who he is as a person and we might be given the opportunity to decide if we want to support him being in that position of power or not. After all of that, after meeting him, after talking about how much we like him, would you still opt out of casting that vote for him because you just don't want to participate in the system because you don't believe in it?
- [60:35]
A
There's two things. So first, just to answer your question directly, I just, with a clean consciousness, cannot participate in a system that has not stood for its people in a very long time. And By a very long time. I don't know if it's ever stood for its people. So to partake in what the system is, I just can't, with the right consciousness in what I stand for, do that. You know. Now, in terms of Governor West Moore and what he stands for and what, and who we present himself as, you know, and how he talked and how he connect with everybody and how we hurt people, I feel like having someone, first of all that is able to see the side, the two sides of the world, I feel like having a black man in the office is going to be wonderful. That's the very first take, you know what I mean? We have a good history. We have a good history of black people in the office. I'm not going to lie to you. I think even beyond that, I think we deserve a president or a leader that is not afraid to push the button, which I don't think he is. But I feel like the, one of the biggest things that that's going to either make or break his campaign is his ideology beyond Maryland, because in the debates, and this is not on his character, but I feel like it was a missed opportunity to be like, yo, I hear, I see everything that's happened around us, but he can't announce his presidency either way. But like if I was in power like that, that if it was me versus this, what I've done, you know, because we need more visionaries. The reason why Elon Musk is Elon Musk is because, because we've seen what he's done. But for him to even meet his phase one, he had to be the visionary. So I think him going beyond Maryland and being like this is what us as a nation need to do for our brothers and sisters. The I have a dream is forever the most repeated and most known speech. Why? Because it was visioned. It was vision based. So I think having him really highlight his vision and be unafraid of how erratic or how his vision lands is something that would be really refreshing to all of us because again, that is how Obama won. You know, I'm saying that he wasn't, yo, I did this in the past. I did this for xyz. No, he was like, I have hope. You know what I mean?
- [62:38]
C
And that's forward facing.
- [62:40]
A
Exactly. And that's how Trump won. Make America great again. So I think if he could, his, his mission can't be we need a better President Trump. Because I don't think any believe nobody cares. I think people just want to know what the vision is and even if that vision looks like America is going to go and collapse underneath, I'd rather know that that's part of the process versus part of the process. And trusting, because again, not to the defense of Trump or anything, but he has told us that shit's going to be shitty and we know shit's going to be very shitty with Trump. Like, I don't, I'm not surprised with the way America is right now, are you?
- [63:14]
C
I mean, I'm surprised. I mean, it. What, what time period are we talking about? I did not foresee the political turmoil that we've experienced in the last 15 years. I did not foresee that coming.
- [63:28]
A
You know, I've seen it with George Bush not liking black people, famous Kanye line. I don't care. I'm resonating on that. But like, I, I genuinely genuine, genuinely don't think it's something that's, that's shocking. Like forever America has been on the decline ever since we took away the gold, the gold standard. You know, I mean, we've, in trying to find that sort of balance that, that meaning. So I guess Governor West Moore, I really appreciate him. I want to have more conversations with him. I want to be able to support more of his mission, more of what he stands for. But I think the biggest deciding factor is going to 100% be on what is his actual vision. Because if his vision is just to, I don't know, like Mamdani literally has been. Bow, bow, bow, like every time I
- [64:14]
C
was running for president. Would you vote for him? Him? Who would you vote for?
- [64:18]
A
Who would. I'd vote for myself. I would vote for myself because I'm, I, I don't. Again, like, I, I love everybody, but at the very same time, I feel like that, that idea of trusting, trusting a leader 100%, it's not just going to be a couple curated speeches or debates that he has on television, or a couple rallies that I land behind or a couple million bucks behind him that makes me go in a line with him. Not even his party makes me align with him. I need someone that is actually not just looking to shake the system, but really reinvent the system as a whole. Because if you genuinely do sit here and believe that voting is going to change anything, you know, and not you walk into Middle street and giving a homeless person a dollar bill or even a banana is more effective than. We just don't align that way. So I, I would vote for myself. God, honestly, I would vote for love. And I believe in the intrinsic human nature which is positivity, light and love.
- [65:18]
C
Well Carla, thank you very very much for this conversation. It's been awesome doing a follow up with you. If you want to see more follow up episodes of Surrounded, be sure to like leave us a positive review. Comment if you're watching the video on YouTube, you can subscribe to Tubely, Jubilee's second channel. You can also subscribe to Jubilee to see full Surrounded episodes. But however you want to support us, just thank you so much for listening. Remember, you could be wrong, so could I. Keep your mind open until next time.