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- [00:00]
A
His claim was that the black community should leave the Democratic Party altogether. And you guys pretty much agreed on this. And I'm curious.
- [00:08]
B
He was about to molly whop me, John. He came through like, all right, I'm about to hit her with this one. Y' all ready?
- [00:17]
A
From Jubilee Media, this is the Surrounded podcast. I'm John Regolato and today Amanda Seals is back after being at the center of last week's episode where she debated 25 black conservatives. We're going to react to some of the highlights from the episode, hear her take on the arguments, as well as dig into her claims in more detail, exploring the topics of reparations, policing, socialism, the future of the Democratic Party, as well as policing. So without further ado, here's our conversation.
- [00:46]
B
Jack Daniels is proudly served in fine establishments, questionable joints and everywhere in between. So no matter where you go in every bar, you'll always know someone by name. Jack.
- [01:01]
A
Jack and Coke shot at Jack.
- [01:03]
B
Jack Daniels, please.
- [01:04]
A
Right away.
- [01:05]
B
That's what makes Jack Jack. Please drink responsibly.
- [01:09]
A
Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Copyright 2025 Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey 40 alcohol by volume 80 proof. New season, new chaos in college football. Big stage, big opportunity. This Labor Day weekend. The wildness lives on ABC, ESPN and the all new ESPN app. What a way to start. Featuring top 10 teams like Clemson, Notre Dame, Alabama and LSU. And Bill Belichick's deb at North Carolina. It's so special, these teams collide. Don't miss a lineup filled with electric matchups.
- [01:38]
B
Welcome back to college football kickoff week.
- [01:41]
A
Presented by Modelo Labor Day weekend on ESPN and abc. Also available to stream on the all new ESPN app. Amanda, it's great to meet you and welcome to the Surrounded follow up.
- [01:51]
B
I'm here. I'm still. I'm still alive after my Surrounded taping.
- [01:56]
A
Yeah, well, we're going to watch some of it together today if that's cool with you, and react to it.
- [02:02]
B
Please, please.
- [02:04]
A
What were you thinking going into it? What were you thinking on your way home from it?
- [02:10]
B
I was originally going into it with a kind of like, you know, like, let's get these folks. They're going to be talking stupid stuff and we're going to tell them. And something switched in me once I got in there and I wasn't expecting it. I was, don't get me wrong, like, it was very irritating to, to hear the stances that people were taking, particularly because they are fellow black people. However, I had this, this feeling of more so like Sadness that they felt this way because there's no reason that any black person would be against. There's no, like, true, honest, like, fair reason why any black person would be against any of my claims. Like, none of my claims are subjective. Like, they're all fact based. When I went in there initially, it was like, I'm about to argue. But more so was like I wanted to, like, hold them. Like, I wanted. I wanted to. I wish that those conversations were actually able to happen in a space that was not, like, built for contention. Because I do think I could actually get a lot of those people to understand, like, the error of their, of their thought process if I too were not as compelled to, like, feel like I have to, like, defend versus just educate.
- [03:45]
A
In this episode in particular, the disagreements were more about kind of subtle narratives than they were about facts and statistics.
- [03:57]
B
Right? Or like, even statistics aren't really facts. But I feel complete. It's like, didn't you feel like we were doing a lot of arguing about, like, stereotypes and. Yeah, you know, like, I.
- [04:08]
A
It was a little bit narrative way.
- [04:11]
B
You know, versus, like, okay, you might feel that way, but that doesn't, you know, like, redlining, like, redlining is real. You know, I think the, the very, very, very, very, very unique thing about this particular surrounded is that it's. It's two sides within a cultural space, within a cultural group. But that is a unique scenario because I believe that had I been surrounded by just conservatives in general, I would have, I wouldn't have felt that feeling of like, no, like, this is us. That made me say, I actually did that. That made me drop this, like, go for the throat, like, go for the jugular mindset and instead made me want to be like. I mean, don't get me wrong, sometimes the jugular was gone for.
- [04:57]
A
And we'll go about. Did you watch any of the previous episodes before you decide to do it?
- [05:08]
B
I had seen clips. I had seen clips. As a black radical, it's imperative that we exist in multiple mediums, right? And when we look at those who came before in the black radical tradition, people like those who are over my shoulder, whether it's Gil Scott Heron as a poet or, you know, Baldwin as a writer and philosopher, or as Malcolm X as an organizer and philosopher as well, like, all of them would have just been really smart black men in their neighborhoods if they hadn't seen, somehow gotten onto media with their messaging. And so for me, it was like, well, I know that this is going to be putting myself in, like, through a gauntlet but it allowed, like, sometimes people think, why would Amanda go in certain spaces? And they don't understand that I'm seeing, like, generations ahead of, like, the kind of content that I believe is gonna continue to still, like, be present and long form is what I think will end up outlasting, like, these little videos that we post here and there.
- [06:20]
A
No, I, I, I feel the same way. And on behalf of Jubilee, we, like, are very appreciative of you for stepping into the arena. It is not an easy thing to do. I'm gonna pull up the first clip. Your first claim is it's undeniable that reparations are just and necessary. This was kind of the most contentious moment or the first contentious moment that came up when I was watching it. And so this is with Jordan.
- [06:47]
C
So let's get off this thing where, oh, America is so racist. What's making America so racist is people that continue to talk about racism and continue to focus on racism instead of focusing on unity and bringing our country forward. People that have these liberal mindset are infecting our communities, black people, and making us victims and not victors. I refuse to embrace a victim mentality because that's not what our grandparents and Harriet Tubman and those people fall for. They fought for.
- [07:18]
B
Do not bring up Harriet Tubman's name in vain, baby, please. They said the Lord's name in vain. Harriet Tubman. The Lord's name. Harriet Tubman was literally, literally saving her family and others from slavery. Yeah.
- [07:35]
C
You know who helped her? White people.
- [07:37]
B
You know who helped her?
- [07:38]
C
They were on the Underground Railroad. Come on in.
- [07:40]
B
No, you know who helped her?
- [07:41]
C
Come on in.
- [07:42]
B
No. You know who helped her?
- [07:43]
C
God. People.
- [07:45]
B
People who benefit from white supremacy. One of the things. That's a lie.
- [07:49]
C
White supremacy is a lie.
- [07:50]
B
No, sir, that's not true. So something that would happen quite often throughout this show was I would be stunned to confidently state that white supremacy is a myth. That's like, white supremacists would be mad, right? Because they're like, nah, nah. We are the Supreme. Like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't like.
- [08:17]
A
And that ended in a place where I was confused as well when he said white supremacy is a lie. I actually, I wasn't following Jordan there either.
- [08:25]
B
Jordan's not following Jordan. But the point that I was about to make is, is that the reason that those white people were able to help was because they benefit from white privilege, and thus they have a certain shroud of protection around them, which is how it's an underground railroad. She wouldn't have needed their help if there wasn't a slavery to escape. Slavery is the result of white supremacy and there are still the repercussions of that to this day. Thus reparations is a completely valid response. And it has been given to a number of other communities for harm done. Why would it not be given to black Americans?
- [09:07]
A
If I go back to the. Where Jordan was starting in that clip and this was, this is kind of where I talk about how there was like a tug of war of narratives is. And it came up with some other people was he talks about this victimization and what's your response? Or do you think there's validity in that concern?
- [09:26]
B
No, no, I don't.
- [09:28]
A
Yeah. And even if you don't think it's valid, what's your.
- [09:32]
B
It's gaslighting.
- [09:33]
A
And how come.
- [09:34]
B
Because we learned about the Holocaust of the Jewish people of Germany. For every year of my grade school class, we are now watching a genocide of Palestinians who solely grounded in a concept, in a concept of victimhood of Israelis. And somehow, and somehow when black people are saying, hey, these laws and these institutionalized, these, these institutionalized systems that are still organized around not granting equal rights and equal access to. To black people are preventing egalitarianism, that's not being a victim, that's actually being very action oriented. And continuing to point out, you will not get over on us the suggestion that if we just pretend like we're not black and like nobody's a color, then racism goes away is actually just quiet racism because there is still systems in place that are supported by this. And there are grandparents who taught their children, who are teaching their children. And we're watching it every day. These, these thugs coming out of U Haul trucks with their face covered, holding up Confederate flags, saying we will not be replaced.
- [10:58]
A
While we're on the topic though, of reparations, because I totally hear you, you know, we see it. We've seen actions like this in other countries as well as within the United States based on other events in history. What do you think is the best way to get support from, you know, enough American voters to. To make this a reality? Because I think there's a really legitimate argument behind it. But I'm curious, like, what, what do you think is the strongest message to get, like, real support behind it?
- [11:30]
B
Honestly, we don't live in a nation that has any regard for correction. Like, we live in a nation that is a narcissistic mindset in terms of, like, our culture in the United States is a narcissistic mindset. And the narcissistic mindset says that there's not that we don't. The narcissistic mindset says that we've done nothing wrong. Like, that's what a narcissist believes. Like, you can never correct a narcissist because there is an exceptionalism that they're always possessing. Right? So what you're asking is unfortunately so many steps behind. Because as a people, first of all, we still don't have a United States. Like, as a people, like, we are watching immigrants who actively pay taxes, are active parts of our communities be kidnapped, as if they are not functional members of our society. That is a result of us not being a United States. In some places, you see the community fighting because they're like, these people are our community. Like, this is not possible. But we don't have the homogeneity of a place like Korea or a place like Germany, etc, right? Or at one point in time, we have never as a country come together under a flag of true multiculturalism that is not based in assimilation. You know, like in Tanzania, at one point they had a president who was like, you can be everything that you are. At the end of the day, you're also Tanzanian. And so that brings people to a dual consciousness around, like protecting their identities and their cultures and their ethnicities, as well as upholding this Tanzanian concept in the United States. Like, that's not been an honest thing. Because the idea is that you can't be both. You can't be Mexican and an indigenous Mexican who is protecting and remembering and living in your culture. And American you have American is like just capitalist blankness. It's just money. That's all it is. So to, so to say, like, what would it require to get people to, to convince, like voters that reparations would be like, positive, possible or positive in this current climate. You would have to make them believe that to give black people reparations would be good for their pockets. You would have to convince them that if we give black people reparations, it'll make you rich.
- [14:09]
A
Like an economic middle class argument. Like, let's strengthen the middle class, something.
- [14:14]
B
But there'd have to be interest, convergence. It would not be on a moral ground. Like, it has always been positioned when it comes to Jewish people or even slave owners. It was positioned on a. Well, you know, we took your slaves. So the right thing to do since we kept your. Since we stopped you from making money, is to give you some money. I mean, England didn't Finish paying reparations that they had. They had their taxpayers in England collectively paying reparations to slave owning families till 2015.
- [14:44]
A
I hear you and I appreciate you digging into that. I'm going to go to our next clip. This is with Austin. In the context of your second claim, which was black on black crime is a result of underinvestment and over policing.
- [14:59]
C
The black community was at its economic least strongest while being at its poorest during the segregation era prior to 1968. Dr. Martin Luther King in his last speech said that we have an annual income of more than $30 billion a year, which is more than all of the exports of Canada and more or more than all of the exports of the United States and more than the national budget of Canada. That was when we were economically at our poorest. Yet 85% of our black children were growing up with a father in the home. There was less black on black crime. There was less disenfranchisement.
- [15:27]
B
Why was there less black on black crime?
- [15:29]
C
Because we needed to live together. We had, we had to stick by each other. We had to.
- [15:32]
B
What was there also less of.
- [15:33]
C
I'm not sure where you're leading. That's a leading question. I don't like.
- [15:36]
B
We. You don't like this?
- [15:37]
C
I don't like leading questions. I like direct stuff.
- [15:40]
B
So essentially, when we were living in our own communities, we were also policing our own communities.
- [15:46]
A
Could you kind of, you know, build on. On the idea that you were, you were starting to move towards with him.
- [15:51]
B
The concept of black and black. Black on black crime is not created by black people. The concept of black on black crime is created by systems that are, that benefit from the free labor of black people. And those systems are at their, you know, are effective with the support of police and policing, which is derived from slave catching. So to base the concept of black on black crime in, to couch it in. Well, when we lived by ourselves, we were better. We were, we got along better. It's like he was agreeing with me and didn't realize that he was agreeing with me because ultimately, yes, when we were not having to be invaded on a regular basis for the goal of snatching up folks to be a part of another industrial, you know, system, we did have more autonomy and, and we in that autonomy operated more as a socialist community. When we look at black communities that are, you know, that have been created and I think that's the other thing that a lot of people do not want to acknowledge. Like there have been black communities that were created by scarcity like literally capitalists created scarcity that forced black people into certain spaces that others did not have to inhabit. And, you know, the projects, etc.
- [17:16]
A
Are.
- [17:17]
B
Housing is housing that was. That was controlled and was provided less resources than other places. It was also painted with lead paint. That we know affects the way the frontal lobe operates, which also affects the way that we react to things. It increases it. It increases violence. It decreases aggression. We also know that the food quality is less. Right? So you're not getting better food. We also know that if I'm living on top of you and to the side of you and to the right of you, et cetera, et cetera. Now there's more noise. I'm not sleeping as comfortably. There's less trees. My air isn't even as quality. And when I went on a toxic tour around the world, around the nation, to these different black communities that had popped up out of, like, industrialism, whether it be like Motor City, you know, whether it be like in Detroit, you know, with the car. With the car industry, or in Portsmouth, Virginia, there's. There is environmental racism that takes place. And we're seeing that happen right now with Elon Musk. And the difference with the ability to get his. The ability to cease his building in Tucson, which is a predominantly white community, but not in Memphis.
- [18:40]
A
There's layers and layers and layers of disadvantages, even toxins that are in areas that can create a scenario where then if you're very selective and you choose one statistic, you can say, oh, there's more crime committed here. But what you're saying is it's the intersection of so many different variables that are affecting that community, holding that community back, poisoning that community. Am I understanding that right?
- [19:09]
B
Yes, because that is the truth. I lived next door to a precinct in Harlem, so I was next to the cops all the time. I remember one time coming home and a woman was being mugged, and she was across the street, she was being mugged, and I started screaming because that's the person I am, right? And the police were one block away. And when those guys were, like, still wrangling her, I start sprinting to the police. They ended up, in my surprise, they were on break. So they were all standing outside like they must have had some shift change. And I ran up, and I was like, they're mugging someone right down that block. Not a single person moved. And once one guy said, what are we supposed to do about it?
- [19:57]
A
Wow.
- [19:57]
B
When I lived in Calabasas, I lived in a gated community, and one of our security guards was an indigenous man named Willie. He had a ponytail. And one night I had pulled in, I said, willie, if somebody came up here and said to you and held out a gun and said, let me in this, in this community, what would you do? He said, well, gotta let him in. But the cops ride around here every seven minutes.
- [20:27]
A
Mm. Yeah. It's a stark divide. There was a few years ago. You know, this was kind of in the middle of everything that was going on in 2020 where it felt like there was a wider interest in re envisioning law enforcement, especially in black communities where this over policing is happening. It felt like that kind of lost some steam. And I'm curious, do you still think there's a lot of like, interesting ideas to rethinking law enforcement and policing?
- [21:00]
B
You know, the, the thing about where we are in the United States versus 2020. I think that there was something that in 2020 felt safe for people in terms of having like the beginning of a different idea about things. Because the murder of George Floyd was so palpable and the disarray around Covid that it allowed folks to have the willingness to imagine something else. We are at a point now where it can't just be imagining something else and it has to be destroying what's there. I'm an abolitionist. I don't believe that we need policing. Do I believe that there needs to be protecting of citizens?
- [21:52]
A
Yeah.
- [21:53]
B
Yes. However, that is not what the police are there for. There's literally a whole case Castle Rock versus I can never remember who it's versus, but Castle Rock versus such versus this particular police department was a supreme court case that ended up being ruled in the CA in the favor of the police department that says the police do not have to come and protect you. If you call them, it is within their jurisdiction to decide whether or not they want to help you. It is not their built in responsibility. This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight, you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treat start prioritizing their financial education and future. Today with a risk free trial at greenlight.com Spotify greenlight.com Spotify @New Balance. We believe if you run, you're a runner. However you choose to do it. Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way, you're free to discover your way. And that's what running is all about. Run your way@newbalance.com running.
- [23:29]
A
So that gentleman who you were speaking to, Austin, he reveals that he's a police dispatcher. And that is sort of. I think that's how the interaction ends. I want to play you that part and just kind of.
- [23:44]
B
I forgot about that.
- [23:44]
A
So you can kind of hear that back.
- [23:46]
C
Talking to somebody that works as a police dispatcher when I'm not making content. So here's the thing.
- [23:50]
B
No, no, no.
- [23:51]
C
You see, the truth is, you're about to see the truth if you just gimme a second. Like Trump said, just give me a second. I'm gonna do the weave, but give me a minute.
- [23:56]
B
Well, here's what you all keep doing. You keep interrupting me when I'm talking, and you don't want to hear the point that I'm gonna make the point that I'm. Yet you want me to respond. Respect your point. And that's not how a debate works. So if you want me to keep getting louder, I will do it. But ultimately, if I show you respect, give me the respect back. I let you talk. I let you make your points. I am countering your points, and my points are just as valid as yours. Even though you got a pocket square and a Church of Christ pin on your chair.
- [24:21]
C
It's not a Church of Christ.
- [24:22]
B
Whatever. It's a cross. Same difference. You got an American flag and you think you know something because you a cop and ultimately not a cop. It's ACAB all day over here. So let me make that clear. But let me also add to my point. My point is that you can sit here and blame black people on black people all day long and not acknowledge that we are forced into. You're coming to interrupt me again?
- [24:44]
C
I haven't even said a word.
- [24:46]
A
Obviously, a lot of contention going on there. I'm just curious, you know, when you see it played back for you, any. Any new thoughts or reflections come up?
- [24:57]
B
Oh, he just wanted to be famous. That's somebody that wants a TV show.
- [25:03]
A
And why do you feel that way?
- [25:05]
B
Because I know a performer when I see one. I've been a thespian since I was eight.
- [25:09]
A
When he. When he disclosed to you that he was a police dispatcher, do you remember when he said that? And did that change how you felt about your conversation with him or the confrontation you were having with him at that moment?
- [25:23]
C
No.
- [25:23]
B
But I can see, watching it, that I was like, oh, well, you know, I'm talking to. I'm talking to people. I'm talking to an impartial. I'm talking to a non impartial audience. This person is, you know, even though he's like, I'm not a cop, I'm like, yeah, you on the payroll. You there. You don't see a problem with it. So if you don't see a problem with policing, you might as well be a cop. You're literally there dispatching, and you don't see nothing wrong.
- [25:53]
A
Right. So this next one, I think, is with Jazz. She had lost some loved ones to, I believe, a shooting. And this was in the context of your claim systemic racism isn't a theory. It's a lived reality backed by data and history.
- [26:09]
B
The concept of white people is about people who are upholding a supremacy of whiteness versus people who understand that there should be an egalitarianism, there should be an the new white supremacist. We are. We are on a pedestal. We are. We feel like we can't do anything. No, it's not that we're putting them. It's not that we're putting them on a pedestal. It's that we are joining them and instead weaponizing our blackness against our people. When we do what you're saying, we are saying, I am better because I figured it out. And so you're the problem because you didn't figure it out. But, Amanda, what about if I believe that the American dream is. I have a right to that as well? Is that me joining white people, or is that me saying, you know what? I want a life of my. The American dream for me, because it may look different from other people. Some people, it's a boss chick for me. I want my kids to grow up in a wonderful neighborhood. I want them to go to college. I want to have a 401k. I want to do this. I want to do that. So I feel like a lot of times in the black community, we associate anything that's right or that's just or that's striving forward with whiteness. So when you say that we're working with whiteness, it's capitalism. And I think that's what we have to understand. The difference of the concept of capitalism always is grounded in exploitation. But I'm not sitting here benefiting from capitalism. And you can know that because you would. I understand that we are benefiting. I understand that we are benefiting from capitalism, but I also understand that we would have other people and a vast more majority of people benefit if we were not solely capitalist. That is what it means to be a black radical. You know, she's somebody who I feel like in a different setting there could be some breakthroughs.
- [27:32]
A
Mm.
- [27:33]
B
There were a couple people there that I felt like that with because she's responding from trauma.
- [27:40]
A
So a big event. A big event.
- [27:43]
B
A big, big traumatic event. And so, like, I also was having to do a very. I can't remember if by that point I knew what had happened to her family, but I felt like I was definitely having to try to make sure that I kind of like, protected the realities of her pain. Like, I didn't want to undermine the realities of that in trying to prove my point. Because there's. Trauma does breed behaviors. So in the same way that she's disregarding, I think I actually did eventually make this comparison. Like, in the same way that she's disregarding that trauma from the black community will lead to certain behaviors. You know, her trauma has. Has informed her response.
- [28:37]
A
Something that I. I felt coming from her was a sense of conflict, of like, my mom had to just get through it, you know, and raise me and give me opportunity. And she was almost hesitant to give too much recognition to trauma because she felt like that might be holding her back. Like, she felt like she needed to focus on where she wanted to get rather than maybe what she had experienced and what impact it had had on her.
- [29:10]
B
So that's very Caribbean as. As a. As the daughter of a Caribbean person. Because, you know, emotional maturity just isn't a part of, I would say, my, like my parents culture, my mother's culture, emotional analysis, et cetera. Like, that wasn't really like a part of the deal. You know, it's. It's really. I mean, I think it's fair to say that that hasn't been a part of like multiple cultures in the western world until fairly recently. Right. Like a real committed effort to mindfulness and self analysis and examination, etc. Right. So there's also just not enough time. Like, you know, there's not enough time. And so one of the things that I end up uncovering towards the end of the episode is like, oh, hold up. A lot of y' all are first generation Americans or you are full on immigrants. So your relationship to the black American experience is skewed. It's clouded. It's not a direct experience.
- [30:19]
A
Yeah. That comes up with. I think his name's Matt and what.
- [30:25]
B
Matt from Angola, who grew up in Maine. But has an opinion on black. I said, brother, the. You know, and. And the con. The. The. The thing about him is that he's brilliant. I think that he's actually a really smart kid.
- [30:41]
A
Yeah, he's around.
- [30:42]
B
He's just around a lot of idiots who. Or. Or he's around a lot of people who know that he is and are using that.
- [30:51]
A
Before we talk too much about Matt, though, I want to. With Jazz. Someplace that you started with her is you were talking about whiteness, this idea of whiteness. And she was kind of. She was also voicing this concern that she felt pressured to feel guilty if she wanted things that were, quote, unquote, like, associated with whiteness, like wanting a 401k or living in a nice neighborhood.
- [31:16]
B
I don't know where she got that from.
- [31:18]
A
Yeah, that was.
- [31:18]
B
That's her own thing that she's made up. I don't know where she got that from. We all. I would say that the people that I know. It's not about it being whiteness, and that's why I went into capitalism. It's not about it being whiteness. It's about it being only allowed to be achieved if you perform a certain way, if you behave a certain way, if you exist a certain way. That is not applied to white people in the same way. And capitalism suggests that these things that determine you having hierarchy are what are considered success, when ultimately that should not be the only version of success that there is. I remember when I had this, like, breakthrough in my early 20s of realizing that, like, oh, so, like, success doesn't have to be, like, money based, because that was all that I feel like I had ever really been taught. Like, I feel like that's how it had always been framed. And then I remember I used to date this underground rapper, and, like, he wasn't famous, like, on a Jay Z level, you know, like, but he was able to live comfortably, like, without having to scrape and, you know, scratch the bottom of the bowl, but while still doing his passion. And he was a happy guy, like, you know what I mean? Like, he wasn't bitter. Like, yeah, man, if I could just get the private jet, like, the rest of these. Like, it wasn't.
- [32:46]
A
He was content. Is that your beef with. With capitalism? You know, because it. That. That discussion then grew to capitalism. Like, that it breeds a mindset of never having enough.
- [32:56]
B
Like, one of my several beefs with cast capitalism. Yes, because that mindset breeds. Yeah, exploitation. And that mindset breeds a false scarcity that does not exist.
- [33:08]
A
Is there a word Or a political philosophy that you think best embodies what you think we should envision beyond capitalism?
- [33:19]
B
Yes, Socialism. Black radicals are very much folks who understand that socialism and the communal mindset that allows for everyone to have an access point into their version of success without exploit. Without exploiting others is a really practical methodology that unfortunately the US and other capitalist nations have not allowed to thrive.
- [33:44]
A
And do you feel like a revolution is, is absolutely necessary in the United States? Yeah. And what kind of revolution?
- [33:54]
B
All of them. All of them.
- [33:58]
A
All the above.
- [33:59]
B
All the above. But it won't happen unless there's education. Education is what starts every revolution.
- [34:04]
A
Okay, so this next clip is. This is Matt Nuclear, which.
- [34:07]
B
Is that a rapper name?
- [34:09]
A
I'm not sure. I. I'm not sure. I think it's an awesome name, but I don't know.
- [34:14]
B
Race is not something that you are. Race is something that was bestowed and put.
- [34:18]
C
That's racism, not race.
- [34:19]
B
Race is simply the aggregate is literally something that was created and put upon you. And I want you to listen to me as somebody who has studied this, who has a master's in African American Studies from the Institute for Research and African American Studies at Columbia University. I want you to understand very clearly that race is not something that is biological. There is literally no. Look at the difference. There is many differences that are equated to ours.
- [34:43]
C
Melanie Thompson is not biological at all.
- [34:45]
B
So if you have a black parent and you have a white parent and now you come out looking white, how is that a biological.
- [34:51]
C
But most, most of them, most of.
- [34:52]
B
Them come out having curly hair. Stop. There is no. Most of them you do not have anything. You're mixed race too. I am not mixed race. My mother is black and my father is black.
- [35:00]
C
Well, my father is also considered black, but he's very much has a lot of European DNA.
- [35:05]
B
You know what I think? I think that you are at a phase of your learning where you are a contrarian and I look forward to seeing your development because I have a feeling that you're actually going to flip the script eventually. By the way, these are the moments where I remember. Okay, so like my ex, he had a seven year old daughter and like, do you have kids?
- [35:22]
A
I do have a daughter.
- [35:24]
B
How old is she?
- [35:25]
A
She's four.
- [35:26]
B
Do you find yourself sometimes having to remember that she's four before you get into an argument with a four year old and you're like, whoa, I argue.
- [35:33]
A
With her like she's a grown up on a regular basis like my ex's daughter.
- [35:41]
B
I'd be Like I'm about, like I have to catch myself. Like you're really about to have like a full argument with a six year old.
- [35:47]
A
It happens faster than you realize.
- [35:49]
B
I mean. And so like that's where. This is one of those moments where I had to remember, Amanda, you know that scene in Good Will Hunting where after they have the blow up, they come back to the next session.
- [36:04]
A
Right, right.
- [36:05]
B
And Robin Williams, Rest in Peace is like, you know, I was really mad. And then I remembered, like, you're just a kid, you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. Why, thank you. I have reached a point in my life and I remember when I was Matt. I remember when I was 20 something and was like, why won't people like me? And it was like, well, yeah, because you're smart, but you're not wise yet. So I had to catch myself. No, I was like, I was like, oh, Amanda, remember this? This young man is.
- [36:37]
A
I loved, I loved that though. I loved that layer and I liked how you were kind of naming it with him and you were, you were like simultaneously frustrated, but then impressed with his, his confidence because he was extremely confident.
- [36:53]
B
Race did not exist as a concept. I think prior to, I think it's like the 1500s. There have been tribes and nations and ethnicities and types of people. Right. However, the concept of race was ultimately created and cultivated in order to serve as the buttress for the transatlantic slave trade. It was created as a capitalist concept to support why these people should be enslaved by these people. And if you read Ibram X Kendi's book Stamp from the Beginning, that's a good place to start. As well as Nell Pinter's the History of White People, it really gives you a very clear path to how this concept required upkeep. So the concept of race, because it is merely a concept, is full of holes. It's not real. So therefore there were all of these efforts and methods and, you know, fake science created to attempt to, to make it valid. One of the other ways that you can understand that race is a concept, that race is a social construct, is that the bar is always moving in order to determine who gets to have access to white privilege. It is not finite.
- [38:37]
A
What do you mean by that? The bar is always moving.
- [38:40]
B
So when the Irish and the Italians were brought.
- [38:44]
A
Oh, right. Because they weren't considered white.
- [38:46]
B
Considered white, yeah.
- [38:47]
A
They were othered in their own kind of way at the time.
- [38:50]
B
Yes. However, after the Emancipation Proclamation and we see the great migration of black people across the, the nation there becomes the black codes and the effort to police these black people so that the 13th Amendment, which allows for slavery, if you have been committed, if you have been convicted of a crime, so which. So then they need to police these black people so that they can be put back in prison, so that there can continue to be slave labor. And they employed that of the Irish and the Italians to do that. And so thus they got access to whiteness. And over time they became white.
- [39:35]
A
This is where though I do think, like there's an. People get confused or turned off or they hear a snippet and then they're like, I don't understand it. When you're talking about whiteness, you know, the way you just broke it down now, you're talking about as like this concept of a protected class, a class that has privilege allotted to them in, in a special way. You're not talking about it in a like, genetic way. You're like, oh, this is.
- [40:03]
B
It doesn't exist in a genetic way.
- [40:05]
A
Exactly. And so I do think that.
- [40:07]
B
Which is why people can pass, right?
- [40:11]
A
And just so to go back to what Matt is saying, you know, he's like, well, look, look at our skin, you know, or look at, look at us. We all, we all have similar traits. But what you're saying is, you know, there's no line. There's no like obvious line where it's like you're black and you're not black. These are ideas constructed.
- [40:27]
B
If I am sitting next to a Native American person who has never ever had any African for let's say three generations. Okay, let's just say three has never had any interactions with African people. And they're darker than me. Are they black? No.
- [40:52]
A
Exactly.
- [40:54]
B
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- [41:25]
C
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- [41:33]
B
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- [41:43]
A
Okay, so the next clip. This is with Laila. And so Laila, I think I Know what the clip this is about rap music. Are you ready for.
- [41:53]
B
Okay, I do want to touch on a point that you did mention earlier, that you would argue that, you know, black people have less opportunities in America. I do not agree with that. I have not had. You know, first of all, you're a light skinned woman and so are you. Yes. And you're doing great. Yes. And so colorism really does serve us. But I do want to say, why do you think that is, though? Why do you think that? Do you think it's just based off the color of our skin or do you think it's based off of the reputation that black people make for themselves? What reputation are black people making for themselves? What would you argue? Because, I mean, when I look at who makes the reputation for black people. Let's look at music, for example. We already had this conversation with somebody else. Well, we're going to have it again. Most of the people that. Oh, are we most of the people? I'm gonna shut it down right now and let you know that the reality is that when you come to black music, for you to say most of the people, you've already lost the argument. Am I right? There is no. Most of the people with black people. Because you haven't heard of all of black music. No. Most of the music that is, let's say, maybe exalted are shown by the media. Who controls black Americans, but who's putting it out there? We are black. No, we're the ones actually distribution systems that are putting them out there. They're owned by white people who listens to them. Everything that she was saying is again, what I talk about when we say that. When I say we are constantly pruning the leaves instead of like at the root. So you can sit here and talk about black music all day, but if you're not acknowledging that the systems that are putting out the black music are all controlled by white run corporations, then you're not having a real conversation. And you know, this was a conversation that had happened on the Breakfast Club with Lyric Cohen, who is like at the very top of Interscope. And Lyric Cohen was like, yeah, you know, we make money off of it.
- [43:34]
A
Yeah. And so you feel like, do you think the music industry is intentionally.
- [43:41]
B
Yes.
- [43:42]
A
Perpetuating destructive stereotypes?
- [43:44]
B
I didn't always. I didn't always. Because it just felt like too conspiracy theory, you know, like, oh, come on.
- [43:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, nice.
- [43:53]
B
You know, like, you know, you're just like, is everything a conspiracy? And then you're like, yes, actually. And I Say that in the sense that it's not conspiracy theory. It's it. It feels like conspiracy if you believe that the powers that be have your best interests at heart. So if that is your grounding, foundational belief, then anything challenging that feels like conspiracy. Which is why, like, when people say, like, the system isn't broken, it's working the way it's supposed to, flips a switch for a lot of people because you're like, oh, so, like, it's not crazy to consider that there would be efforts to continue to continue a narrative of harm for a people that we never gave a damn about. Like, that's actually not crazy. You know, like, you think, dang, why is there so many cop shows and military shows? And you're like, I'm bugging. And then you find out that there's actually CIA involvement and FBI involvement in the movies that get made and how they get made. And then you understand that oligarchs are running newspapers. You understand that networks that used to operate, like, in a more individual mindset, for instance, like hbo, gets bought up by a big conglomerate that now has to serve a bottom line that now determines, like, this matters. And this doesn't matter because it's not about an artistic mandate, it's about a money mandate. And that money mandate is often determined by people who may not necessarily every time say, we're going to do this because we don't like black people. However, they may willingly say, well, those guys did it and they didn't like black people and they made a lot of money off of it. And I mean, I don't. I couldn't care less, but I want to make money, so I'll do it too. Does that make sense?
- [45:58]
A
The power. The power of the financial.
- [46:01]
B
Yeah, it's just, like, potential. And as somebody who grew up in the 90s and grew up with gangster rap and all of it, sometimes I listen and I'm like, what? What were we listening to? And I just say, I can't. As someone who also came out of the music industry and understands how it works, like, I just simply haven't had enough evidence to convince me otherwise, that there wasn't a concerted effort to continue to expand this music from pain at the threat of what it would continue to do to communities and on just like a. Like, the black music that was wholesome, that was like, you know, really about love, etc, ended up in the be. Like in the 50s and 60s and 70s, like, I mean, 50s and 60s, more so ended up being stolen from black people. And re performed, you know, by white people. So, like, we didn't even get to have our own representation of our stories and our narratives. But then when we're talking about the harm that we're experiencing, they're like, oh, yeah, please, all the blacks go forth. Go, say it. Say that, say that, say that. So, no, I think it doesn't change the argument, though, which is that we don't control those systems.
- [47:38]
A
Yeah, no, and I really appreciate you breaking that down. I think there's, like, a lot. You could talk for hours just about that. The very last clip was with John Samuel. John Samuel, I believe, is running for Congress. First name? First name? Yeah, that's what you said. That's funny. He's running for Congress, and his claim was that the black community should leave the Democratic Party altogether.
- [48:02]
C
Well, I'm just saying that a lot of people, especially where I'm from, I'm from San Diego, would like to put black conservatives in this box. And the reason why I say specifically in my claim that black people need to walk away from the Democratic Party is because every single election cycle, all they do is use as their tokens. They use us as their kind of election tools. They use us as these campaign posters. They tell us to come to their rallies. They tell us to send sing on their stages that tell us, do all these things, and they forget about us three other years, and they remember us four years later.
- [48:32]
A
I'm curious.
- [48:33]
B
He was about to Molly wap me, John. He came through like, all right, I'm about to hit her with this one. Yeah.
- [48:39]
A
But then. But then when you guys got along, he went into his politician mode and was just using it. But I'm. You know, I feel like we're in this interesting moment. Zoran is shaking things up. I feel like the political spectrum is potentially in flux and. And does that excite you about the possibilities?
- [49:00]
B
I mean, I think excite is a strong word. I really only get excited about, like, kittens and trips. But, you know, the thing about it is that not enough of us really know history to be able to just do basic pattern recognition. Right. Like, there have been many parties in the history of the United States. The. The Emancipation Proclamation and abolition movement, abolitionist movement that ended up happening because a Republican Party decided to be bad about it. Like, before, it was the wigs, you know, it was like the wigs W H I G S. And I believe it was like the Whigs and the Democrats. And then the Republican Party was born out of interest convergence, where you had folks who genuinely were like, you know, we probably shouldn't be enslaving people. And then other folks were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, slavery is bad. But not because of that, but because like, these rich people, these rich people, these people keep getting rich and we're not getting rich, so, like, we should just cut it off. And though that wasn't a moral stance, it was interest, conversion. So there was enough people that had a boat that both had a desire to end slavery, that a third party was born. And so this has happened before. I believe that the biggest error that non white people and people who are against white supremacy have made in this nation's history is the, is the failure to create another third party post civil rights movement. There should have been coalition building beyond Republicans and Democrats because Republicans and Democrats were ultimately not ever created solely for the purpose of expanding the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness to everyone in this nation. Right. So where we are now is like, yeah, here we go. There should. This is about. It's about time. It's around, you know, it's around the same type of cyclical time period where there's unrest. And, you know, I'm sure the astrologists are like, yeah, Amanda, you're so right, because the 10th House and the 11th House is being ruled by sagitt, blah, blah, blah. And I'm with them. So I, I wouldn't say it's necessarily an exciting. I wouldn't use exciting as a term, but.
- [51:16]
A
Right.
- [51:17]
B
It's a time of possibility. And I feel like that's what so many people have not witnessed. They haven't even witnessed possibility.
- [51:26]
A
Yeah.
- [51:26]
B
And so their imaginations are stunted, their empathy is cut off. And so a lot of things are happening all at once. People's empathy is hot, is being forced to be opened by knowledge of what's taking place in Hessa, in Palestine, at large, in the Congo, in Sudan. People's political knowledge is being bust wide open as they're like, you know, maybe Cory Booker really isn't doing anything. Maybe Democrats really aren't our BFFs. So, you know, and then their identities as Americans as being really flipped on its head because it's like, wait, maybe I don't want to be American because this feels whack.
- [52:12]
A
Well, I'm gonna. We can end it on that Amanda lot today, John.
- [52:18]
B
I gave you a lot.
- [52:20]
A
I did take it a lot.
- [52:22]
B
I hope you take a bath after this. Not a shower, a bath. Like just really spot up.
- [52:28]
A
No, I'm definitely sweating. I gotta turn the fan on here. But I appreciate your Time and I guess any advice to somebody who's going to step into the center of surrounded, would you do it again? Don't do it.
- [52:42]
B
You know what, I'll just say on a basic level, like I got there, like I got there kind of late. Like I didn't have like I felt like rushed into it on my own accord, right. Like I did. So that was already like, that had already kind of like set me back. I didn't set myself up to have like comfort before going into chaos. So if you're gonna do this, like do that, understand that you're walking into chaos. So like get there. By the way, my. I just want to shout out my security guard brother Amir, because he had absolutely said we should get there early. And I was like, arling, we'll get there on time. He was absolutely right and I was wrong. And. But that's why he's security. He sees the reconnaissance. He already sees, he already sees the danger. And I'm over here, like, it'll be fine. No, you should have got there earlier, set up camp and, and, and ate your rations. John. I had a very unique surrounded because I was surrounded by people that regardless of what they believe, I still consider them to be a part of my community.
- [53:46]
A
Yeah.
- [53:48]
B
And so when I went in there, I just, I told you from the, in the beginning of the episode, like something shifted in me into like more of a place of love where I wanted to be an educator versus a like eviscerator. Eviscerator, you know. But there are a few times during the episode where I addressed the room, you know, and I wanted to bring them in to understand that this is an us conversation. I don't see you all as my enemies. I don't see you all, you know, as opposition. Outside of your opinion, I don't know you to be, I don't know you to believe that like Clarence Thomas is opposition beyond opinion because he has power that he is wielding to commit harm these people. We also, we. We're in a warehouse in la.
- [54:51]
A
Amanda, any, any last thing you want to want to say to the listener before signing off, you can check out.
- [54:57]
B
My YouTube show Views from Amanda Land. Every Wednesday, 10am Eastern, four hours. I have great guests, we have great conversations. And if you like my work and you want to continue to see it expand and continue, it is by your support. I am no longer a part of the system. I bought my book back from Simon and Schuster, so I don't have any corporate ties. I don't have, you know, people think I'm like still employed by Hollywood. No, I'm employed by y'. All. So thank you as the grassroots for some supporting my patreon subscribing for $5 a month, for supporting my artwork at Amanda Land Exports and for even supporting by just sharing my thoughts and insights because they come from a genuine place of love for this people in this planet.
- [55:50]
A
Beautiful. Well Amanda, thank you so much for your time. Thank you, thank you for stepping into the arena and I hope you are.
- [55:58]
B
The champions, my friend.
- [56:03]
A
I love it. I love it. Well, take care and hopefully we'll talk again sometime. For more follow up episodes of Surrounded. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to hear more from me, you can find me on x or on YouTube. John Regalato and if you want to see the main video episodes of the show, follow Jubilee on YouTube. Thanks so much for listening. Remember, you could be wrong, so could I. Keep your mind open until next time. This episode is brought to you by FX's alien Earth, the official podcast. Each week, host Adam Rogers is joined by guests, including the show's creator, cast and crew.
- [56:45]
B
In this exclusive companion podcast.
- [56:48]
A
They will explore story elements, deep dive into character motivations, and also offer an episode by episode, behind the scenes breakdown.
- [56:55]
B
Of each terrifying chapter in this new series.
- [56:58]
A
Search FX's alien Earth wherever you listen to podcasts.